How "clean" is the kendo of the World Kendo Championship teams?

[ChowYunFat]

I was reading this thread (http://kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5423) and was wondering how "clean" is the kendo of the WKC teams?

[bokkenbreaker83]

is blocking considered unclean? i would think that that would be part of kendo..

[4doormadman]

its tournament kendo, so I suppose the answer is no.

I suppose if this was a perfect world, everyone would be doing clean kendo all the time, even in tourneys. Then again, in a perfect world devoid of petty human competitiveness, we probably wouldn't have tournaments.

Go figure

[Andoru]

It also depends on which WKC team we're referring to. I find it hard to generalise.

[Future Head]

I might be going out on a limb here, but I doubt there are many people here who've seen enough WKC matches to respond to the poll. And I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that blocking is somehow "dirty."

[kanyil]

I personally believe the cleanliness of one's kendo is a non-issue.

Provided you are within the strict bounds of reigi, you owe it to your opponent, yourself and the other participants to do your best to win the shiai.

Kendo is not all about shiai, although shiai is a necessary and very important part of developing your kendo. I believe one's kendo will change with time and experience, and it is not necessary to "force" the issue. Just enjoy.

[Stephen]

Another question is are you refering to mens or womens WKC teams. I'm unsure what other people think but I personaly feel that the kendo of the japanese women at the WKC (and in general) was/is a lot cleaner than any of the mens, especially the kendo of Yuka Tsubota who is always very positive in attack and always scores with nice 'clean' technique. With this said there was still a fair amount of blocking so i dont even know if it could be called 'clean'?????

[Andoru]

Have you guys and gals seen the teams semi-final between USA and Korea, especially the first match between the 2 senpo?

[Masahiro]

Yeah I saw that one you refering to Andrew. If I may be so "bold", I am going to assume you mentioned that particular match because the guy on the U.S.A team was pushing excessively right? Yeah I also raised an eye brow to that one, when I was watching the footage as the crowed "oooo-ed"!

[Matlock]

Kendo is not all about shiai, although shiai is a necessary and very important part of developing your kendo.I respectfully disagree with you. I have never competed in shiai and I will never do so. I do not feel the need to be a selected "winner". As long as I am playing kendo to the best of my ability, I will always be a winner. Being better than the person across from you is not being a better kendoist, is only means that you are better than your opponent. So what! Be better that you were the day before and you will always evolve your kendo.

Shiai can be a part of your kendo but it should not be used as your tool of development. It would be better just to practice at other dojos for variety, if possible, for your comparison and development.

Cheers

[kanyil]

I respectfully disagree with you.

Shiai can be a part of your kendo but it should not be used as your tool of development. It would be better just to practice at other dojos for variety, if possible, for your comparison and development.

Cheers
Thank you for your comments. I agree with you somewhat, but shiai do not only occur in tournaments. In-house shiais may feel just as intense.

I think most will not disagree when I say a session of shiai would feel "different" from a session of jigeiko, partly because of the added pressure and intensity. Your opponent is also much more careful/aggressive.

It's very beneficial to have each and every of your move scrutinized by 3 sempais/senseis (aka Shimpan) and the crowd. One tends to receive some very helpful suggestions/advice after a shiai.

[DarthMaul]

From what I can tell, Japan and Korea definitely care about winning Kendo competitions. But it is interesting that some practioners do not place that high of a value competing and/on winning tournaments. If Shiai (or competitions) are not important, then the "champion" of the WKC is really not the "world's best". But if the WKC champion IS a good representation of what a the highest skilled kendoka are like, then winning competitions is almost of the utmost importance for those who want to be "good". Very interesting.... I'd like to see some input from those who actually do compete on a regional or national level and see what their thoughts on this are on this topic.

[Matlock]

Thank you for your comments. I agree with you somewhat, but shiai do not only occur in tournaments. In-house shiais may feel just as intense...
...It's very beneficial to have each and every of your move scrutinized by 3 sempais/senseis (aka Shimpan) and the crowd. One tends to receive some very helpful suggestions/advice after a shiai.Yes, I agree! Some members of my dojo like to have a ippon or a sanbon match for the feel of competition. But we are good enough to judge our own points... I know that lower ranks do not have this ability. I have no interests of having 3 shinpan determine if that shot really hit the kote or not.... Unless, or course it was my sensei judging. My point I was trying to make was that many people put too much focus on the kendo shiai rather than the play itself. I guess some use it as a method to keep themselves focused and motivated.... However, it is often said that the best players do not even compete....

Cheers

[Stephen]

I've always found in-house shiai to be very much different from (the other.. :) ) shiai. It is only my opinion but I've found the intensity and pressure of shiai is a big factor in determining the outcome of the match. In every shiai I've either competed in or witnessed, I can honestly say that there is (in the majority of cases) very little difference in skill between the top few (often top 8) competitors. I really feel that the eventual winner can often come down to the person who can handle the pressure and stay calm and focused (mushin??) - although im still relativley new to kendo and shiai, I can think of a number of times I've won a match against a kendoka who is more skilled than myself(not often thought :) ) as well as lost matches to kendoka who i feel I was more skilled than (incl a 12yr boy who wasnt even in a hakama yet!!:) ).

I think an example of this can be seen by kendoka such as Harada or Sato M, who over the last few years have always been up the top but not been able to win AJKC (or WKC in Sato's case) - it would be a brave comentator to say this was due to a physical deficiency in either kendoka's part..mental?? hehehe Im not brave enough to say.

It may be digressing a bit but I see shiai as a way to really test myself mentaly; Learning comes from both winning and lossing (which is far more important than trophies and medals etc) - the bigger the shiai, the better the environment to test oneself. I know many dont but as I always find a way to relate kendo to life, I feel for me not to compete in shiai would be similar to me practice writing and presenting business proposals to the board of directors while never actually doing it - similarly, to be able to apply what I've learnt in a high pressure situation helps me learn and improve (im sure ive digressed somewhere here - sorry:-). With this said, I do not feel it within the spirit of kendo to 'win at any cost' - i.e. the match Andrew mentioned etc. Anyway, in saying this i still very much respect anyone who practices kendo wether they chose to compete or not; kendo is kendo after all, so I sincerly hope I havnt offended:)

Oh - shiai really are a lot of fun too hehehehe

[JSchmidt]

I respectfully disagree with you. I have never competed in shiai and I will never do so. I do not feel the need to be a selected "winner". As long as I am playing kendo to the best of my ability, I will always be a winner. Being better than the person across from you is not being a better kendoist, is only means that you are better than your opponent. So what! Be better that you were the day before and you will always evolve your kendo.

Shiai can be a part of your kendo but it should not be used as your tool of development. It would be better just to practice at other dojos for variety, if possible, for your comparison and development.

Cheers
I disagree. I think shiai is an important part of 'learning' kendo. As with Shinsa, it put you on the spot, forces you to deal with a win/lose situation and as such can have a significant effect on your kendo that day and that, IMO, is an invaluable lesson. You'll be hard pressed to find a better opportunity for being exposed to the 4 sickness' of kendo and what better way to learn how to deal with them?.
There's a enormous difference in going to a shiai and visiting another dojo...the 2 don't really compare.

As for the original subject, I find that both the WKC and the AJKC are quite messy..wouldn't call it dirty, but fighting at rather close distance and often quite defensive kendo. Not especially pretty to watch

Jakob

[Fonsz]

Shiai can be a part of your kendo but it should not be used as your tool of development. It would be better just to practice at other dojos for variety, if possible, for your comparison and development.
I would like to change the quote by Matlock above to:
"Shiai can be a part of your kendo but it should not be used as your only tool of development."
I also tend to agree with Jakob. In the ideal world you should get a mix of both. Practicing at other Dojo is also good to see where your Kendo is at the moment.
But I don't think that the accent should be on Shiai, this will result in the messy Kendo that Jakob has witnessed.
Regards,
Alphons

[Andoru]

Yeah I saw that one you refering to Andrew. If I may be so "bold", I am going to assume you mentioned that particular match because the guy on the U.S.A team was pushing excessively right? Yeah I also raised an eye brow to that one, when I was watching the footage as the crowed "oooo-ed"! Yup that's the one!

I agree with what Stephen said. I believe that it's been mentioned many times that shiai is a good test of one's kendo. Having said that, it appears to me that many do what it takes in shiai to avoid being cut e.g. blocks etc. Within rules of course. I shall not dwell deeper into this topic as there is already a thread on this topic already.

Like what Stephen said, many of the top competitors are so closely matched that it's often the small difference that determines the winner in that match. In this context, I find that those who are adaptive to their opponents often come up tops e.g. Suzuki v Harada in 52 AJKC Final. Accordingly, I find that shiai kendo is a great way to also learn how to adapt and to create openings given the pressure and circumstances etc.

In summary, I believe that shiai is important in one's kendo development. I believe that shiai teaches many things. As a beginner shiai taught me what the elements that constitute yuko-datotsu are (ki-ken-tai-ichi, zanshin etc) and I was able to incorporate that in my keiko. Nevertheless, there will always be other people who progress well without any shiai participation. Like DCPan says, your mileage may vary....

[DarthMaul]

It's interesting that most of the "best" swordsman (eg Miyamoto Musashi) are defined by how many duels they have one or lost. Most of the "best" were either undefeated or won a large majority of their duels. Of course, losing a duel with live blades would probably result in death. There aren't any famous swordsman that lost a majority of the time or that simply did not participate in duels. If Kendo is the way of the sword, I would assume that it would follow suit. And if it does not, then who is the "best" Kendoka? Is it some old guy in Japan that never competed in a world championship? Or is it someone who has won multiple world championships?

[DarthMaul]

oops typo in previous post!


It's interesting that most of the "best" swordsman (eg Miyamoto Musashi) are defined by how many duels they have one or lost. is supposed to be:

It's interesting that most of the "best" swordsman (eg Miyamoto Musashi) are defined by how many duels they have won or lost.

=)

[Louis X]

Who said Myamoto had a "clean kendo" ? ;)

[DarthMaul]

True. No one said he [Musashi] has "clean" kendo. Whether or not his technique was clean, cannot be determined by anyone alive today. However, it was clearly effective and decisive. He is considered, by many, to be the best japanese swordsman to ever live. This implies that his technique was superior to his opponents. He was never accussed fo using "trickery" to win.

The original question was whether or not the techniques used by those who compete in the World Kendo Championships is considered "clean". If you look at other martial arts that have competitions, you will see that usually those who win have the best form, endurance, skill, etc. So for example, a champion Muay Thai fighter most likely has better technique than someone who is ranked (competition rank) lower. The same is true with Boxing. But with Kendo, it seems that alot of practioners don't really stress importance of Shiai and/or competition. Even though Kendo is, literally "the way of the sword", it is impractical to actually go around dueling others with live blades. This is why bogu and shinai were created in the first place. Today, the only way someone who studies the "way of the sword" can use and test their knowledge is in Shiai.

I personally think that the rules can be made to be more realistic.
But that's an entirely different (but related) discussion. (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5304)

From my research, I read about one of the first schools that used Shinai and bogu. Yamaoka Tesshu founded a dojo where Shiai was the main method of training. New students did not receive any training on fundamentals (footwork, swinging shiai, etc) of kendo/kenjutsu what so ever. They were given bogu and shinai and fought with senior students for eight hours at a time. Of course, with no training, they were repeatedly hit and beaten badly. As this type of training progressed, the students would eventually learn, out of necessity, how to stand correctly and swing correctly on their own. Tesshu believed that this trained the mind as well as the body. His school was considered to be one of the best schools at that time. This is interesting because, Shiai was the a very important aspect of training at this dojo.

So I think if we answer the question, we will see how far removed current competions are from "real" kendo. Perhaps the problem is not competition, but the constraints under which current competitions happen in. Ideally, the "World Champion" should have clean technique, very high skill and be a good representative of Kendo. If the World Champion is viewed as someone who has bad or unclean technique and uses trickery to win, then that is very unfortunate.

[ChowYunFat]

It also depends on which WKC team we're referring to. I find it hard to generalise.
How about the best teams and champions?

[ChowYunFat]

Ideally, the "World Champion" should have clean technique, very high skill and be a good representative of Kendo. If the World Champion is viewed as someone who has bad or unclean technique and uses trickery to win, then that is very unfortunate.
totally agree :cool: that's why i asked the question.

[Pan-Chan]

It's interesting that most of the "best" swordsman (eg Miyamoto Musashi) are defined by how many duels they have one or lost.

IMO, I see that most of the "famous" swordsmen today are ones that are known for what they did to aid the developement of Kendo, through their philosophies. Not just their actual sword skill, Musashi being an exception since both his skill and philosophies have been imortalized in Kendo and in many thoughts of life.

But I understand what you are saying.

[Andoru]

How about the best teams and champions?
Sorry I meant to say that it's hard to answer the poll question due to the differences in "cleanliness" between teams.

The 2 best teams are quite clean IMHO.

[Matlock]

...then who is the "best" Kendoka? Is it some old guy in Japan that never competed in a world championship? Or is it someone who has won multiple world championships?Hello DarthMaul, I have seen you on Star Wars... you were awesome, man :) Anyway, I will keep my post as short as possible. Everyone has their own idea of kendo and training. That is for certain. I guess I feel like kendo should not include the words "best", "winning" or "sword fighting". Over my years of experience and in many dojos that I have had the opportunity to train, the concept of kendo is to better oneself. This is not the days of the Samurai and comparing kendo to the katana like; "with live blades would probably result in death" is a bit childish, or at best, naive. Winning is not the aim of kendo....even a beginner should know this. Not saying that tournaments are a bad thing, just saying that tournaments should be a small side to your training. The old guy you mention, is probably a good kendo player...the world champion you speak of, could know nothing of kendo other than how to hit someone...incomparable....there is much more to kendo than simply being good at winning tournaments. You seem to forget the entire concept of 道 (dou). Without this concept, you are just playing 剣 (ken).


From my research, I read about one of the first schools that used Shinai and bogu. Yamaoka Tesshu founded a dojo where Shiai was the main method of training...This is interesting because, Shiai was the a very important aspect of training at this dojo.No, this would be the in-house shiai training that was discussed earlier, not a tournament where you pay a fee, three shinpan judge Tesshu and his students, and the winner goes home with a trophy. It is strange that you would bring up Tesshu because it was he who considered the ultimate aim of sword fighting to be "無刀" the art of "no sword". Where a match could be won without even pulling one's sword. Thus, not killing and a means of a more peaceful end. http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/ISBN/1-57062-050-4.cfm For your reading pleasure. :)

The worst result of tournaments on kendo players, is that the people who start winning tend to grow a bit too arrogant and carry too much pride. Sure you may have beaten all the 1st to 3rd dans as a 3rd dan, but shut up and fight the 7th dan at the head of the class. Nothing better than a cup of humility served cold.

We all have different ideas..... just keep doing what makes you happy.....

Cheers

[kendokamax]

I think shiai is a good motivator to have more better kendo around.
it serves more purpose than you might think of

[DarthMaul]

This is not the days of the Samurai and comparing kendo to the katana like; "with live blades would probably result in death" is a bit childish, or at best, naive. Let's be naive for a moment and assume that the katana was designed to be used in combat to kill one's enemies and not simply to chop lettuce or be worn as some kind of jewelry. :shocked:

And then, let's get really crazy and stupid and assume that Kendo (the way of the sword) is somehow related to swordsmanship and fencing with katanas. :shocked: :shocked:

Thirdly let's totally go off the deep end and just for kicks, we'll say that someone who was a master of using the katana invented the shinai for the purpose of practice and that the two are closely related and one is actually designed to mimick the other. This would lead an intelligent person to believe that the two could POTENTIALLY be compared.... Only in our crazy and naive universe of course.

Oh and while we are at it, let's re-read that post in it's context.


Even though Kendo is, literally "the way of the sword", it is impractical to actually go around dueling others with live blades. This is why bogu and shinai were created in the first place. If you like me to further explain these two sentences, please don't hesitate to ask. :wink:

I also read the book you are talking about and, in fact, that is where I got my information. But again.... let's read my post in context:


New students did not receive any training on fundamentals (footwork, swinging shiai, etc) of kendo/kenjutsu what so ever. They were given bogu and shinai and fought with senior students for eight hours at a time.
I was simply making the point that form wasn't even taught directly and that the majority of the learning/teaching was in Shiai. And in case I might have somehow been naive:rolleyes:, or just illiterate:wink:, and misinterpreted what I read from that book, I have quoted a part of the text from page 78 of Kendo by Minoru Kiyota:


A novice who entered Shunpukan, Tesshu's dojo, was not exposed to the fundamentals of kendo--how to hold the shinai, how to swing and thrust the shinai, how to position the feet to maintain the proper stance, how to defend himself, and so on. No verbal instruction was offered. Instead he faced a superior, who mercilously attacked; when he was out of breath, a crushing body-blow would follow until he was finally thrown to the floor. Nonetheless, in due time, a novice would acquire the skill to hold the shinai properly and to render the effective "snap", and would learn through body-blows that the best defense is an offense, and that the most effective offense in the face of an intimidating opponent is a go-for-broke sutemi attack. The rest of the passage goes on to say how that all of the training was like this until the student graduated. At the time of graduation, a gruelling multi-day shiai session with both single and multiple opponents served as the final test. I must admit I am a complete novice at Kendo, but I would hope that I am literate enought to have understood that passage. From reading that, I just assumed (and perhaps I'm being naive):rolleyes: that the school's training focused on Shiai as it's main tool/method.


The worst result of tournaments on kendo players, is that the people who start winning tend to grow a bit too arrogant and carry too much pride. Sure you may have beaten all the 1st to 3rd dans as a 3rd dan, but shut up and fight the 7th dan at the head of the class. Well apparently you think that the higher ranking 7th Dan would undoubtedly beat the arrogant lower ranking kendoka. This would imply that higher ranking (better?) kendoka is more likely to win at Shiai. And if that is true, then one who wins a World Championship is most likely to be.... higher rank, better, whatchamacallit, best?


Nothing better than a cup of humility served cold.Yes. I totally agree. However, the receiver must be able to atleast comprehend what has been served. :wink:

[Stephen]

The worst result of tournaments on kendo players, is that the people who start winning tend to grow a bit too arrogant and carry too much pride.

Cheers
Without wanting to enter into the kendo/kenjutsu debate, I do agree with the above quote posted by Matlock. However, I'd also be inclined to believe that although this can be the case, one could also see it as another one of kendo's many tests.

To someone who's had a few 'wins' to gain some confidence is a good thing, but the lesson lies in the fact that it can often be fine line between being confident and arrogant. With every negative aspect of shiai (or kendo), there are practicle lessons to be learned. I think we can see examples of this (humility) in many of the worlds top kendoka, be it Ando or Eiga to Australia's very own Kirby Smith. It could possibly even be suggested that this humble attitude is an essential ingredient of success in the shiaijo, as well as in kendo itself.

[Matlock]

I guess I should apologize for writing a post that perhaps angered you. But no need to go all Sith on me now.


...From reading that, I just assumed...that the school's training focused on Shiai as it's main tool/method...I think that there is a misunderstanding as to the word "shiai". What you are describing is an in-house dojo keiko. I was referring to tournaments commonly taking place where people all over come together to match. "Shiai" would mean a tournament of that nature, but could also mean other things such as a "match". I should make clear that I mean those large tournaments where the winners go home with tropies such as the thread suggests, World Championship Tournaments. Being torn apart by one's instructor during practice is an everyday event, and an effective way to learn. So the dojo in which you are referring to uses free fighing "jigeiko" as a main method of teaching and not tournaments. Perhaps with this misunderstanding clarified, we can see common ground.


...Well apparently you think that the higher ranking 7th Dan would undoubtedly beat the arrogant lower ranking kendoka. This would imply that higher ranking (better?) kendoka is more likely to win at Shiai. And if that is true, then one who wins a World Championship is most likely to be.... higher rank, better, whatchamacallit, best?Uhhh, no. The difference between 3rd dan and 7th dan is grotesquely huge. My point was that there are more challenges out there than merely beating your peers. You last statement is a very funny question because I thought it was strange too that the champions of kendo were like 5th and 6th dans. I assumed that farily young 7th dans would tear everyone up. I asked my sensei who is a 7th dan about it. He made the comment that those really good at tournaments are not often able to promote so highly because of the "bad" habits obtained during tournaments, "shiai kendo". You know, like dodging your head at the last minute so your opponent will not score, bobbing back and forth, bouncing around before your strike, using wrists to strike for speed rather than the entire arm..... the list goes on. These done in a promotion match would be, more than likely, an automatic failure. And not to mention, by the time you reach the higher ranks, you are about late 40`s and up.

Hope this helps clarify our misunderstandings. :)

[Matlock]

Without wanting to enter into the kendo/kenjutsu debate, I do agree with the above quote posted by Matlock. However, I'd also be inclined to believe that although this can be the case, one could also see it as another one of kendo's many tests.

To someone who's had a few 'wins' to gain some confidence is a good thing, but the lesson lies in the fact that it can often be fine line between being confident and arrogant. With every negative aspect of shiai (or kendo), there are practicle lessons to be learned. I think we can see examples of this (humility) in many of the worlds top kendoka, be it Ando or Eiga to Australia's very own Kirby Smith. It could possibly even be suggested that this humble attitude is an essential ingredient of success in the shiaijo, as well as in kendo itself.Hello Stephan, thanks for your post. I think the problems lies in the "individual" aspect of the idea of tournaments. A long time ago in Japan, there were no individual divisions for tournaments. Each dojo had one player that competed and that one player fought in the name of the dojo. They would not have the player's name, only the Dojo name would be worn. Of course it was not always the same person who competed so it was a "teamwork" event. These days, it is all about recognition and glory. Each individual wins or losses. As you mentioned, the humble attitude that goes with kendo is the "dou" ideology that many players simply overlook these days. Thanks.

[kendokamax]

I dunno.......has anyone seen Iwasa talk before? He doesnt look like an arrogant bastard.... he looks more like a clown....

actually I had the chance to meet some of the best shiai kendo player in japan and they were all clowns.....

[ChowYunFat]

doh! "shiai, keiko, jigeiko, match, duel, sparring" what's the difference?! aren't they all the same thing, except for minor technicalities? now i'm confused.... :confused2 that school darth wrote about definitely sounds cool though. i just started, but i wish i could atleast try sparring or whatever it's called soon. :(

[Neil Gendzwill]

These days, it is all about recognition and glory. Each individual wins or losses.
At many tournaments the individual divisions are not nearly so important as the team event. That is certainly the case at the Worlds - everyone is trying to win the team event.

DarthMaul, I forget - have you actually set foot in a dojo yet, or are you just book-learnin' right now?

[kuzu70]

I am not understanding the poll question. Is the question "are the points being scored by the judges clean?" or "are the points being scored by the kenshi clean?"

I was not there so actually I could not comment on either. I have seen some of the world shiai on tape, and overall I think good, clean points are being scored. But then again, I was not there. Sometimes it is hard to tell if a point is good or not on tape. (It is hard to tell sometimes, even when you are there!)

[meow]

doh! "shiai, keiko, jigeiko, match, duel, sparring" what's the difference?! aren't they all the same thing, except for minor technicalities? (

No, they are not the same.

The way I understand it:

shiai means competition. The main goal in shiai is to win. You will sometimes see things in shiai which are not to be done in keiko. (ducking for example)

keiko just means practice, if I am not wrong... There are a lot of different ways to practice. Practice form, practice speed and attacking, practice multiple techniques (nidan and sandan waza)

jigeiko is practice, like sparring. It is not so important to win here, but to deliver clean technique and work on what´s important for your level like attacking, running through after an attack, kiai, show strong spirit or build up seme (pressure). At least that´s the way I understand it.

A match is shiai.

duel: There are no more duels today. (Or at least not officially) They are illegal.

sparring is jigeiko.

Please everybody correct me, if I got something wrong.

[Matlock]

At many tournaments the individual divisions are not nearly so important as the team event. That is certainly the case at the Worlds - everyone is trying to win the team event.Thanks Neil, that is a very good point. I think that I would be interested in participating in such a team event even though I really dislike tournaments :)

WARNING.....BORING READING AHEAD!

I was turned off the whole idea of tournaments when I was younger and training in karate back in the US. There used to be gobbs of tournaments everywhere; pay your money and try to win a $2 plastic trophy.... what a moneymaker those were. Every Karate teacher in town ran their own personal tournament. Anyway, I went to a karate dojo that "required" participation for the purpose of promotions. You had to prove that you participated in at least 4 tournaments for yellow belt, and the higher the rank, the more tournaments required. Of course, our sensei was the largest sponser of those moneymakers, making him all the richer.

I stopped going to tournaments after about 12 years of karate. I actually made the move to kendo because of was trying to run away from the arrogance that 99% of karate players had at the time. All claiming to be the world champion and waving their black belts in everyones' faces, even though the only won a handfull of tournaments in the Mid-West of the US. World champion.....give me a break...

What attracted me to kendo was the lack of attitude that there was in karate, the "I am mighter than you" attitude. Also, the fact that no visible ranks are worn. I just like that sense of seperation from rank. Everyone wears the same unform, about the same colors and no one sticks out. You see many of the karate guys wearing their black belts with the golden stripes to show which dan they are....like just black is not good enough.

Sorry, to run off on such a tangent. My point is that I would truly hate to see kendo in North America (as well as other places) turn into the karate frenzy of the 1980's. In most circumstances, mind you that there is some good styles at there, Karate was taken from its roots and made into a crowd-pleasing spectacle with flashy techniques and amazing feats that created "superstars". Does everyone still remember the Martial Arts special on TV a year or so back that showed various styles, and also karate and tournaments with that guy swinging a sword around.... I felt violated after watching that part.

And uhh....now for something completely different.....

[DarthMaul]

I stopped going to tournaments after about 12 years of karate. I actually made the move to kendo because of was trying to run away from the arrogance that 99% of karate players had at the time. All claiming to be the world champion and waving their black belts in everyones' faces, even though the only won a handfull of tournaments in the Mid-West of the US. World champion.....give me a break... LOL! I totally agree. This is the problem with commercialization of a "martial" art. There's no better place to package and sell something than the good old U.S. of A. I'd rather win 3rd place out in a small amateur Muay Thai tournament somewhere in some unknown rural town in Thailand than be known as the "US. World Champion". Personally, I disagree with you about competition not being important. Competition is important in everything in life, for it weeds out the weak. There is a problem, however, with certain competition formats. These formats might promote bad form and/or unclean technique. A great example would be point sparring tournaments where targets and techniques are limited.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Matlock, have you been to a kendo tournament? I think you might find the atmosphere completely different, at least the few I've been to here in Canada were. The competitors are very respectful, when they win they simply bow, leave the court and shake hands with their opponent, when they lose they do the same thing. Nobody talks back to the judges, protests or otherwise makes a fuss. They might bitch in the locker room if they didn't like the calls but in the shiai-jo it's all very polite. There's a good sense of comradery, I find.

[Hai_hai]

I voted that it was extremely dirty. No one is wearing shoes. Everyone's bogu smells like wet leather embedded with human sweat. The sweaty tenugui is used to wipe the face off. There's bacteria everywhere.
Dirty, dirty, dirty.

[Hai_hai]

Matlock, have you been to a kendo tournament? I think you might find the atmosphere completely different...
It is a lot like the movie "You Got Served" except with kendo instead of dancing. I trash talk everyone but I love them too.

[Mikeyprime]

Matlock, have you been to a kendo tournament? I think you might find the atmosphere completely different, at least the few I've been to here in Canada were. The competitors are very respectful, when they win they simply bow, leave the court and shake hands with their opponent, when they lose they do the same thing. Nobody talks back to the judges, protests or otherwise makes a fuss. They might bitch in the locker room if they didn't like the calls but in the shiai-jo it's all very polite. There's a good sense of comradery, I find.
SoCal is the same way. however, you will always find those that do not wish to display courtesy to others for whatever reason. Event the "top" kenshi out here are guilty of that from time to time.

However as you say, no one EVER disrepects the shimpan or questions calls.

[Matlock]

Matlock, have you been to a kendo tournament? I think you might find the atmosphere completely different, at least the few I've been to here in Canada were.Neil, that is a fair question. I have written about my tournament experiences before, however, let me just bring up a few highlights...and maybe my personal experience. I have participated in a handful of kendo tournaments here in Japan since 1995. All the way from the Northern tip in Hokkaido (Wakkanai City) and in Sapporo down throughout Aichi, up in Saitama and Tokyo. Only the small local "district" and university tournaments. I did not always win, did not always lose. I have been the spectator in about six tournaments in the US. I enjoyed the Annual Detroit tournament in Michigan back in 1999 and 2002, and even a few local university kendo tournaments.

A few other tournaments that I have seen recently (2003-2004) were natrosious, I shall leave the location undisclosed. These are the ones that I am referring to. The pushing and shoving to nudge the opponent out of bounds was a major problem, as discussed in the thread "Pushing and Shoving during shiai". At this tournament I actually saw on guy drop his shinai, his opponent backed off and the guy who dropped his shinai walked up and punched his opponent in the head. Disqualified? No.... his excuse, "oh, I thought you could do that". Should have been grounds for immediate disqualification, not to do so otherwise is just negligence. Consequently, the receiver of that punch, tried his best to challenge the puncher to an "outside-the-dojo friendly fist fight". Bad tempers, childish behavior, lack of good technique...oh...the list goes on. And this was not some small tournament in Fargo, North Dakota (sorry Fargo), it was a big event ran by the "US authorities of kendo". Sure, this example is not the majority of the cases, but the fact is crummy tournaments tends to spoil kendo. Sumo, boxing and kendo, all rolled into one smelly package.

Tournaments and competition can be a good thing, do not misunderstand me. But if not properly supervised, can breed many ugly kendo inadequacies.

[ChowYunFat]

the votes (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=151) are so even!

[Hai_hai]

the votes (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=151) are so even!
No. They are not. No one has voted "extremely clean".
Kendo is about as clean as Paris Hilton is smart... and/or clean.

[Paikea]

No. They are not. No one has voted "extremely clean".
Kendo is about as clean as Paris Hilton is smart... and/or clean.Ha! What did I win?

[Hai_hai]

Ha! What did I win?
Domo arigato.

[kendokamax]

I think korea is the cleanest....come on guys they fight in white!
not one spot on the hakama.

[Rawoo]

Isnt there some black stuff on it as well?
LOL!!!

[LNGUYEN]

Actually, I like the Korean team very much. The Japanese team used a lot of small hit to win, The USA team pushed a lot even though they had many beautiful Men and Kote, The Canadian team was in between, but the Korean team always swing big, didn't push much and won with cleanliness.

[Kingofmyrrh]

True. No one said he [Musashi] has "clean" kendo. Whether or not his technique was clean, cannot be determined by anyone alive today. However, it was clearly effective and decisive. He is considered, by many, to be the best japanese swordsman to ever live. This implies that his technique was superior to his opponents. He was never accussed fo using "trickery" to win.

I don't think that that many people who know much about histroical swordsmen would consider him to be the best. He never claimed so himself and in fact there is some evidence that he acknowledged that there were better fencers around in his time. The only reason that he has become well know is the Yoshikawa novel from the 30s.
Furthermore, the idea that he never used 'trickery' to win is really rather ill-informed. He was accused of turning up early and late for duels in order to confuse people, and was villified for murdering a young boy who was merely a formal representative at a duel, and not actually expected to participate in the fighting.

[Kingofmyrrh]

From my research, I read about one of the first schools that used Shinai and bogu. Yamaoka Tesshu founded a dojo where Shiai was the main method of training. New students did not receive any training on fundamentals (footwork, swinging shiai, etc) of kendo/kenjutsu what so ever. They were given bogu and shinai and fought with senior students for eight hours at a time. Of course, with no training, they were repeatedly hit and beaten badly. As this type of training progressed, the students would eventually learn, out of necessity, how to stand correctly and swing correctly on their own. Tesshu believed that this trained the mind as well as the body. His school was considered to be one of the best schools at that time. This is interesting because, Shiai was the a very important aspect of training at this dojo.

Your description of the content of his training is fairly accurate AFAIK, but this sort of training is not called 'shiai'. I guess in modern parlance it's uchikomi and kakarigeiko.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Let's be naive for a moment and assume that the katana was designed to be used in combat to kill one's enemies and not simply to chop lettuce or be worn as some kind of jewelry. :shocked:

And then, let's get really crazy and stupid and assume that Kendo (the way of the sword) is somehow related to swordsmanship and fencing with katanas. :shocked: :shocked:

Thirdly let's totally go off the deep end and just for kicks, we'll say that someone who was a master of using the katana invented the shinai for the purpose of practice and that the two are closely related and one is actually designed to mimick the other. This would lead an intelligent person to believe that the two could POTENTIALLY be compared.... Only in our crazy and naive universe of course.

I prefer not to be deliberately naive if at all possible...
I understand that it's a semantic issue that's been discussed here before, but it's useful to differentiate between kendo (what we do now) and kenjutsu/gekken (how to butcher people).

The first person to actively promote the use of 'do' for budo and kendo was a policeman called Nishikubo Hiromichi, although the term 'kendo' had been used previously by none other than Tesshu. Anyway, Nishikubo (in 'budou kouwa') states that budo/kendo are definitely not learning how to defeat and cut down an enemy, training the body to defend oneself, or using one's skills for material gain. He says that these goals reduce one's activities to 'nothing more than jutsu'. He continues to say that the objective of budo/kendo is to train the body and discipline the character for its own sake.
So while I don't think anyone would try to claim that kendo and katana techniques have no connection whatsoever, it's worth remembering that their respective objectives are not the same, and that any perceived similarities between the two should be thought through to see if they really bear up to scrutiny.

[DarthMaul]

I don't think that that many people who know much about histroical swordsmen would consider him [Miyamoto Musashi] to be the best. Obviously, you know alot about swordsmen. Whether or not he was the best swordsmen is completely subjective. In fact, all of our information is based on other people's subjective opinions who actually lived during the time of Musashi. Other than this, we have very limited facts to actually determine and measure his skill. The one thing that we do have is the historical facts regarding the number of duels he fought and won. Considering that he has won such a large number of duels against some very skilled opponents and for the most part is undefeated, it is no wonder that he may be considered one of the best. Without his absolutely exceptional record, he probably would have died an unknown and never had a novel written about the story of his life. My original point is that many of the "best" swordsmen are defined by their record. Is Kendo the same? Can Kendoka be defined by their record in tournaments? Is the world kendo champion truly the best (or even near)?


Furthermore, the idea that he never used 'trickery' to win is really rather ill-informed. He was accused of turning up early and late for duels in order to confuse people, and was villified for murdering a young boy who was merely a formal representative at a duel, and not actually expected to participate in the fighting. I don't see how showing up early could be called "trickery".

Showing up late, would be bad manners at the worst. Showing up late to your tournament match in today's world would result in disqualification. I don't think it would be called trickery.

Killing a boy. That could hardly be called "trickery".

[JSchmidt]

My original point is that many of the "best" swordsmen are defined by their record. Is Kendo the same? Can Kendoka be defined by their record in tournaments?
That point is completly invalid in kendo, as we learn by being hit. By the time you even start to think about entering the international stage, you will have been hit a million times.

Jakob

[DarthMaul]

That point is completly invalid in kendo, as we learn by being hit. By the time you even start to think about entering the international stage, you will have been hit a million times. Perhaps you misunderstood my point.

1. I am saying that swordsmen's skill was usually measured by the number of duels he has won. Of course other things were taken into account, such as his opponent's skill (usually also measured by battlefield accomplishments or duels).

2. Kendo is directly related to Kenjutsu and in fact was initially created as a safe alternative to full speed/contact fencing practice/training. Not only are the physical motions and strategies based on the same type of weapone (katana), but the customs, practices and mind set are (for the most part) the same.

3. Since Kendo is so closely related to Kenjutsu, would it be appropiate to say that the same method can be applied to measure an individual's skill. That method being "duels" of the modern day and age - specifically Shiai in tournaments. Example: World Kendo Championships

I think that this relates directly to the original question asked by ChowYunFat on whether or not the techniques of those who participate in the World Kendo Championships is clean.

If you think competition is not a valid way to measure skill, how do you personally propose to measure it?

[DarthMaul]

That point is completly invalid in kendo, as we learn by being hit. By the time you even start to think about entering the international stage, you will have been hit a million times. Also.... being hit does not always equate to losing. I think that this is the case in a duel with either real katanas or shinai. Obviously, shinai are little bit more forgiving in the sense of physical injury. So even if you are hit a million times, it does not mean you competed a million times and lost a million times.

[JSchmidt]

Shiai is only a small part of kendo. It defines who's best at shiai. As of who's the best in kendo, try reading this:

http://www.kendo.or.jp/english-page/english-page2/new-gif/gray.gif
Concept of Kendo

http://www.kendo.or.jp/english-page/english-page2/pic/kendo6-7dan-kata.JPG


The Concept of Kendo



The concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the Katana (sword).



The Purpose of Practicing Kendo

The purpose of practicing Kendo is:

To mold the mind and body,

To cultivate a vigorous spirit,

And through correct and rigid training,

To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo,

To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,

To associate with others with sincerity,

And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.

This will make one be able:

To love his/her country and society,

To contribute to the development of culture

And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.
Jakob

[DarthMaul]

t Shiai is only a small part of kendo. It defines who's best at shiai. As of who's the best in kendo, try reading this:
The Concept of Kendo

The concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the Katana (sword). So there IS a direct connection to the Katana..... how surprising....but we are not speaking of Kendo as a whole. This thread is about the techniques of the competitors of the World Kendo Championships. And more specifically, how closely those competitors reflect the "best" kendo through the techniques they employ in their matches.

Try reading the original post in thread and this:


Perhaps you misunderstood my point.

1. I am saying that swordsmen's skill was usually measured by the number of duels he has won. Of course other things were taken into account, such as his opponent's skill (usually also measured by battlefield accomplishments or duels).

2. Kendo is directly related to Kenjutsu and in fact was initially created as a safe alternative to full speed/contact fencing practice/training. Not only are the physical motions and strategies based on the same type of weapone (katana), but the customs, practices and mind set are (for the most part) the same.

3. Since Kendo is so closely related to Kenjutsu, would it be appropiate to say that the same method can be applied to measure an individual's skill. That method being "duels" of the modern day and age - specifically Shiai in tournaments. Example: World Kendo Championships

I think that this relates directly to the original question asked by ChowYunFat on whether or not the techniques of those who participate in the World Kendo Championships is clean.

If you think competition is not a valid way to measure skill, how do you personally propose to measure it?

It seems that everyone here is quick to say that Shiai is not important. If that is so, then is the world champion a complete farse? How valid is this "World Championship", if tournaments are not a valid measurement of skill. How does one measure one's skill? Rank? Self proclamation?

[JSchmidt]

I strongly suspect that you are just arguing for arguments sake. Can I ask you how long you have been practicing kendo and what your experiences with shiai have been?


Jakob

[Hai_hai]

DarthMaul, your powers are weak. I find it interesting that you have the time to look up information on the web about kendo and pretend to know everything... in between watching TV, playing video games, reading Black Belt magazine and working at Dairy Queen.

[JRyo]

Hey man,

Some people never win a shiai in their lives and they will still beat the living piss out of you in a keiko. Sure some people might be good "shiai" kendoka because they can learn how to play the game. You might hear through news who won what tournament but you never know how strong someone is in Kendo unless you see him with your own eyes.

[Matlock]

...If you think competition is not a valid way to measure skill, how do you personally propose to measure it?Why do you feel the need to measure kendo skill? Those competitors, for the most part, are out there enjoying themselves by playing kendo. I feel that you still hold on to the mindset that kendo is about "winning and being the strongest", but it is not. Why not try kendo for yourself in real life.


DarthMaul, your powers are weak. I find it interesting that you have the time to look up information on the web about kendo and pretend to know everything... in between watching TV, playing video games, reading Black Belt magazine and working at Dairy Queen.Hai_hai, what else can be said about your post except, "YOU DA MAN!!!!" These are my thoughts as well but I have a difficult time to express myself in that way.

Cheers

[Kingofmyrrh]

I don't see how showing up early could be called "trickery".

Showing up late, would be bad manners at the worst. Showing up late to your tournament match in today's world would result in disqualification. I don't think it would be called trickery.

Killing a boy. That could hardly be called "trickery".

Let's play your game and 'go back to the original post'.



He was never accussed fo using "trickery" to win.


he was accused of trickery both by the Yoshioka family (murdering the boy and deliberately being late) and followers of Sasaki Kojiro (turning up late). Whether you believe these actions were trickery or not (although for what it's worth I think that going against the established rules for dueling would count), there's no denying the fact that he was accused of trickery and was the target of a lot of criticism.
To be honest I don't really find the guy all that interesting. While he may well have brushed up his act in the later years of his life, as far as I'm concerned he was just a thuggish brute for the majority of his dueling life.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Perhaps you misunderstood my point.

1. I am saying that swordsmen's skill was usually measured by the number of duels he has won. Of course other things were taken into account, such as his opponent's skill (usually also measured by battlefield accomplishments or duels).

2. Kendo is directly related to Kenjutsu and in fact was initially created as a safe alternative to full speed/contact fencing practice/training. Not only are the physical motions and strategies based on the same type of weapone (katana), but the customs, practices and mind set are (for the most part) the same.

3. Since Kendo is so closely related to Kenjutsu, would it be appropiate to say that the same method can be applied to measure an individual's skill. That method being "duels" of the modern day and age - specifically Shiai in tournaments. Example: World Kendo Championships

I think that this relates directly to the original question asked by ChowYunFat on whether or not the techniques of those who participate in the World Kendo Championships is clean.

If you think competition is not a valid way to measure skill, how do you personally propose to measure it?


I think it is you, not JSchmidt, who is suffering from misunderstanding. You say that kendo is closely related to kenjutsu. You are wrong. If you had said that the development of shinai and bogu was closely tied in with certain styles of swordsmanship and had technical similarities, then I would agree. But just because a shinai and bogu is used, it doesn't mean that it is kendo. In today's terminology, you would call it kenjutsu or gekken. Kendo as we understand it did not exist back then, and only started to appear in the mid 19th century before being codified by Nishikubo. Kendo may appear superficially similar to kenjutsu/gekken, but the objective is not the same. This makes it meaningless to try and use the same criteria to measure kendo ability as one would use to measure the ability of swordsmen from the days of real combat.

[Hai_hai's_mom]

I have to appologize for my son's behaviour. His father was one of my customers. Hai Hai has never known his father. This is why he has no manners.

[Hai hai's Dad]

:eek: :( Is it really u!!! Im Hai hai's father plz let me see him!!SOB*!!!

[ChowYunFat]

LOL this is getting funny

[DarthMaul]

DarthMaul, your powers are weak. I find it interesting that you have the time to look up information on the web about kendo and pretend to know everything... in between watching TV, playing video games, reading Black Belt magazine and working at Dairy Queen. I see you fully take pride and enjoyment in your anonymity...

<really thick sarcasm immating one of the fab5>
Oh gee... I'm really hurt by that remark. Oh plz don't make fun of me! You big, bad, ferocious internet bully you!
</really thick sarcasm immating one of the fab5>

[D'Artagnan]

Shiai is the most important part of my kendo...


ps. I don't think that a 'win at all costs' mentality is 'dirty' kendo.

[DarthMaul]

I strongly suspect that you are just arguing for arguments sake. The answer is no. I truly want to find out how valid Kendo competitions are. And by valid, I mean that it produces a winner who is indeed the most (or one of) highly skilled person. But somehow everyone here seems to completely:

a. ignore the questions
b. rant on and on about some spiritual issues.
c. nitpick on technicalities of differences between kendo and katana-related arts.
d. all of the above.


Why do you feel the need to measure kendo skill? Why do you insist on not measuring kendo skill?


Those competitors, for the most part, are out there enjoying themselves by playing kendo. Really? I watched only a couple kendo competition videos and on almost all of them, there were people who lost that cried (women) or were very upset (men). Are saying that most of the people there do not care about winning? If this is the case, then why send the most skilled team possible? Let me give you a hint.... It's because they WANT TO WIN.


Kendo may appear superficially similar to kenjutsu/gekken, but the objective is not the same. This makes it meaningless to try and use the same criteria to measure kendo ability as one would use to measure the ability of swordsmen from the days of real combat. The objective in both is to win by having superior tactics, techniques and execution.


he was accused of trickery both by the Yoshioka family (murdering the boy and deliberately being late) and followers of Sasaki Kojiro (turning up late). Whether you believe these actions were trickery or not (although for what it's worth I think that going against the established rules for dueling would count), there's no denying the fact that he was accused of trickery and was the target of a lot of criticism. Whatever you may believe, a concensus was reached and a decision was made. That decision was that Miyamoto Musashi WON those duels. Whatever nitpicking you want to do is simply irrelevant.



To be honest I don't really find the guy all that interesting. While he may well have brushed up his act in the later years of his life, as far as I'm concerned he was just a thuggish brute for the majority of his dueling life. Really? You are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that he most likely possessed a greater depth of knowledge and understanding on fencing and any other qualities which you seek through your kendo training than you could ever hope to reach.

[JSchmidt]

The objective in both is to win by having superior tactics, techniques and execution.


No. Read this again:


The Concept of Kendo


The concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the Katana (sword).



The Purpose of Practicing Kendo

The purpose of practicing Kendo is:

To mold the mind and body,

To cultivate a vigorous spirit,

And through correct and rigid training,

To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo,

To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,

To associate with others with sincerity,

And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.

This will make one be able:

To love his/her country and society,

To contribute to the development of culture

And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.

[DarthMaul]

I am discussing sword DUELS and kendo DUELS not the entire art of kendo or the entire art of kenjutsu. I don't know how much clearer I can make this. Re read my previous post.....

[D'Artagnan]

My opinion is that he most likely possessed a greater depth of knowledge and understanding on fencing and any other qualities which you seek through your kendo training than you could ever hope to reach.

My opinion is that, he was lucky that I wasn't around, else I'd have kicked his ass. He can use as many swords as he likes...

[JRyo]

I am discussing sword DUELS and kendo DUELS not the entire art of kendo or the entire art of kenjutsu.

hey man,
Hai Hai is right : get a life (or a girlfriend)
way too much time on your hands

[Kingofmyrrh]

Whatever you may believe, a concensus was reached and a decision was made. That decision was that Miyamoto Musashi WON those duels. Whatever nitpicking you want to do is simply irrelevant.

Oh dear... Mr. Maul doesn't really know what he's talking about... The (fictional) source that is the main root of information about the guy in the west may worship musashi unconditionally, but I think you'll find that any serious scholarship (not available in english I'm afraid) about these incidents is not so keen to pile praise on musashi. Just because you don't have access to a wider range of information doesn't give you the right to claim that what you can access must be correct. Anyway, I've pretty much decided that there's not much to be learnt from your limited kendo knowledge, so I think I'll withdraw from the conversation. As I said, musashi isn't really of interest to me anyway.

[Hai_hai's_mom]

Kingofmyrrh, your powers are weak. I find it interesting that you have the time to look up information on the web about kendo and pretend to know everything... in between watching TV, playing video games, reading Black Belt magazine and working at Dairy Queen.