Seppuku/Harakiri?

[Richiro]

I'm just curious about what others think of ritual suicide. I think that It was neccesary back in earlier times because it restored honor to your family name. Honor Started getting less important so I guess thats why it died out. I Think that honor is still important, but there are better ways to restore honoro to your family name other than killing your self. Any one agree?

[bokkenbreaker83]

yes i do believe that killing one self is not the only way to restore honor to ur name. in some cases, i think, some samurai, i guess ronin, would do stuff in repentence of wat they have failed to do. but in other instances if defeat came, then most samurai would save face and commit seppuku. am i right?, neone?

[Richiro]

Yes u r Correct.

[Slade]

Seppuku, (Sape-puu-kuu) the Japanese formal language term for ritual suicide (Hara-kiri (Har-rah-kee-ree) is the common language term.), was an intregal aspect of feudal Japan (1192-1868). It developed as an intregal part of the code of bushido and the discipline of the samurai warrior class. To the samurai, seppuku--whether ordered as punishment or chosen in preference to a dishonorable death at the hands of an enemy--was unquestionable demonstration of their honor, courage, loyalty, and moral character. Not all Japanese samurai or lords believed in, even though many of them followed the custom. The great Ieyasu Tokugawa, who founded Japan's last great Shogunate dynasty in 1603, eventually issued an edict forbidding hara-kiri to both secondary and primary retainers. The custom was so deeply entrenched, however, that it continued, and in 1663, at the urging of Lord Nobutsuna Matsudaira of Izu, the shogunate government issued another, stronger edict, prohibiting ritual suicide. This was followed up by very stern punishment for any lord who allowed any of his followers to commit harakiri or seppuku. Still the practice continued throughout the long Tokugawa reign, but it declined considerably as time went by.

Honor for the samurai was dearer than life and in many cases, self destruction was regarded not simply as right, but as the only right course. Disgrace and defeat were atoned by committing hara-kiri or seppuku. Other reasons a samurai committed seppuku were: to show contempt for an enemy; to protest against injustice, as a means to get their lord to reconsider an unwise or unworthy action and as a means to save others.

(Taken from: http://victorian.fortunecity.com/duchamp/410/seppuku.html)

[Banza Joe]

How can we possibly reply with an opinion on this? We do not live in a society where suppuku is practiced or even legal.
We cannot, imho, even begin to imagine how, when someone is shamed or dishonoured, they could put a razor sharp knife to their belly and disembowell themselves. The samurai belief systems were very rigid and in the days of bushido, honour was their dearest possession, so it demanded the greatest sacrifice
Nowadays kids get suicidal if they break their PS2's. We just don't have the same values that people did back then, for better or for worse, could be up for debate.
To try to answer the question, Personally, in todays society NO (to seppuku, obviously), back then, YES!

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

it doesnt make sense, I have found the essence of Bushido. To die! ,
I take this as idiotic and meaningless


Takuan Soho says that everyone naturaly wants to preserve life, and in every situation you should attempt to find the route which leads to least confrontation (which is what every matial artist is mean to do right? ), killing yourself to retain your honour means nothing, because when your dead you have no honour and you dont feel shame or pride..
Killing yourself is a cowardly (yet meaninglessly painfull and cruel( way of getting out of a dishonourable situation
Much better do right your wrongs, regain your honourthrough deeds and action (self discipline) and become a better person
... mistakes are essential in becoming a good person
if everyone killed themselves when they did something dishounrable how could they learn

just some thoughts..

[Hisham]

I would think that all of the adult inhabitants of this world would be erased if sepuku was to be the norm nowadays much in the interest of the smiths lobby:paranoid::laugh:

[Richiro]

']it doesnt make sense, I have found the essence of Bushido. To die! ,
I take this as idiotic and meaningless


Takuan Soho says that everyone naturaly wants to preserve life, and in every situation you should attempt to find the route which leads to least confrontation (which is what every matial artist is mean to do right? ), killing yourself to retain your honour means nothing, because when your dead you have no honour and you dont feel shame or pride..
Killing yourself is a cowardly (yet meaninglessly painfull and cruel( way of getting out of a dishonourable situation
Much better do right your wrongs, regain your honourthrough deeds and action (self discipline) and become a better person
... mistakes are essential in becoming a good person
if everyone killed themselves when they did something dishounrable how could they learn

just some thoughts..
Well you really can't say that killing youself by disembowelment is cowardly. Thats why we dont hear about this any more. Because somone along the line had to have not wanted to commit hara-kiri. Well I think it was right and fit into society then. but now it wouldn't work. people cant commite sucide because of dishonor any more. The only reason for commiting suicide now is either your crazy or depressed. and thats not even with a sword.

[Banza Joe]

Lol....ya know what Richiro? You really ought to think, before starting a thread with the 1st thing that pops into your head.
Re: ikkyu thread, now that was a classic, rofl.

Actually, keep posting, it cheers me up :ko:

[Akai Bushi]

The reason there was a code for being loyal and honorable was because before the Tokugawa era(1600-1868) samurai weren't all that loyal or honorable. During the sengoku period(late-15thcentury-1600) samurai would change to the winning side in the middle of a battle. After the Gempei War(1180-1185) the Shogun killed is own brother, Yoshitsune. The very man that won most of the battles. The reason this code of Bushido was created was so that samurai wouldn't be causing also sorts of trouble after the Sengoku jidai ended. Ieyasu wanted a stable government under his control with no resistance.
I maybe wrong about seppuku, but I think it was a device of control over the samurai held by the daimyo and shogun.

[nalogg]

I would think that all of the adult inhabitants of this world would be erased if sepuku was to be the norm nowadays much in the interest of the smiths lobby:paranoid::laugh:HAHA imagine that.. a modern take on seppuku
contestants that don't get chosen for american idol, sitting in seiza, and spilling their guts out on the floor after an audition!

as for the question of this post:

seppuku started out as somebody disembowling themselves and dying, but later on they started to regard a painful death as unnecesesarry for someone who's ending their life for honour... and so they started practicing it differently- once the person committing seppuku would cut the initial belly cut, a samurai poised in jodan would cut off the person's head with a katana, saving him a very long and very painful stomach wound death.

It's my personal opinion that feudal japanese philosophy had a fairly narrow idea of honour (namely the loss of, and how everything you did had a chance of bringing dishonour). The only time i'd see suicide as acceptable in that time period/culture is to avoid an inevitable torture, or to sacrifice yourself for the lives of a group of many as a kind of "extreme negotiation"... i mean people comitted seppuku for some VERY very trivial reasons.... but my 21st century ideas are way different, so what do I know?

[Richiro]

Lol....ya know what Richiro? You really ought to think, before starting a thread with the 1st thing that pops into your head.
Re: ikkyu thread, now that was a classic, rofl.

Actually, keep posting, it cheers me up :ko:Yeah the ikkyu thread was stupid. And some people said it was annoying. I agree. I was just bored.

[Richiro]

But if i don't ask the stupid questions who will?:D

[Twobitmage]

I dont have a very philosophical view of seppuku.

I think we all value our life, and seppuku is just a way to prove that you cared about something more than your life which is so precious (i.e. your lord, your family, your honor) so thats why its considered honorable to give your life, either through fighting to the death or seppuku

[Hisham]

HAHA imagine that.. a modern take on seppuku
contestants that don't get chosen for american idol, sitting in seiza, and spilling their guts out on the floor after an audition!
shhht some crazy entertainement people might get inspired hehehe

Richiro, I agree with Akai ,you gotta make a difference between the real facts and the romanticized version, seppuku was implemented in the japanese belief system for power and control related reasons and it's surely not to give some bushi the "chance" to die an honorable death, it's like the tweaked confucianism system the final goal is to make sure that rebellion isn't an option in any case.

[Zaphiel]

i don't like seppuku raelly cause it was often done when not neceserry(spelled wrong but ...whatsoever)
like when fallen in unhappy love or so
'it's brave to don't mind about death, but it's even braver to live when life seems to be more painfull than death'
i think nitobe said that and i really like this sentance...
i fully agree with him

[gsx1100s]

The guy I feel most sorry for , is the "second" . the guy standing in Jodan that delivers the cut that ends the samurais life. It was ( in the texts I've read) a far from distinguished job. To botch it up would bring great shame on the swordsman , to be good at it would be to be recognized as a good executioner.

As for the whole idea of ending your life. The bravery involved astounds me.As I understand many samurai ( time permitting ) would write a death poem. To have the poise and grace to sum up ones view on life in a poem just before commiting seppuku, is ( as someone commented on earlier) indeed a way of thinking that I could never hope to understand.

cheers Michael

[nalogg]

The guy I feel most sorry for , is the "second" . the guy standing in Jodan that delivers the cut that ends the samurais life. It was ( in the texts I've read) a far from distinguished job. To botch it up would bring great shame on the swordsman , to be good at it would be to be recognized as a good executioner.

HAHA or you get people coming after you for being "the killer" of somebody close to them, like in lone wolf and cub :D

[Twobitmage]

iirc the term is "kaishaku"

[Vortex]

I am no expert but I have read it was not only for honor but a way to avoid capture and torture as well. To be taken alive was most shameful.

[Kendo-Sensei]

I belive that in Bushido if you go by the rules of seppuku then you are constantly willing to die. This means that on the plain of battle or in a duel fear does not have control of you meaning that you can fight to your full extent. It is fear of death that holds you back in a fight and makes you hand shake under the blows of an enemies blade. If you have no fear of dying like the warriors of bushido then you have no fear to hold you back and no fear to make your hands shake under the blows of an enemies blade. This is my philosophy on Bushido.

"A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step" - Chinese Proverb

[Light Samurai]

as for the question of this post:

seppuku started out as somebody disembowling themselves and dying, but later on they started to regard a painful death as unnecesesarry for someone who's ending their life for honour... and so they started practicing it differently- once the person committing seppuku would cut the initial belly cut, a samurai poised in jodan would cut off the person's head with a katana, saving him a very long and very painful stomach wound death.
Incorrect. They kept the head intact, a small portion of it. And that's only if the samurai wouldn't commit seppuku, or if he tried to run away last second.

[wezzyfish]

You are correct that they did not cut all the way through the neck. Instead they left the front muscles so that the head folded over neatly. However, it was not only done in case they ran away. If the samurai showed weakness and pain on his face during his death, then he forsake bushido and his honor. Therefore, before he could, his second, often someone close to him or his lord, would assist his death. That was only as the harakiri guy cut along his gut and then upward. Women samurai used a different knife and cut along their throat. I don't believe they had a second, but then again, a throat cut is pretty thorough.

You could not decide if seppuku is right or not. You have to think about the ancient japanese. These were a people who lived with death all the time, from when they were children, and looked upon it as not something to fear, but a part of life. This is all japanese, and the samurai even more so. Still, the samurai were not the only ones falling upon their swords in feudal japan. There are stories of women killing themselves as well as children to avoid capture and dishonor. For the samurai, being captured by the enemy was not something they could live with. You were supposed to fight until you die and surrendering was not an option. Therefore, if they were captured, they would be allowed to perform seppuku to save their honor.

Also, many times in battle, when a lord was slain, his head would be removed and kept as a trophy by the enemy. Samurai tried their best not to let their enemy leave with the head of their lord. So, sometimes in battle when it was going against one side, a samurai would willingly give his own head and then his companions would ride off with it, making sure the enemy saw and gave chase. Then, in the confusion, the real lord would get away. The samurai had no problems with running from a fight they couldn't win. It was losing a fight that they could win or surrendering in defeat that they abhored.

I must say that if I could choose a way to die, it would be on the end of an opponent's sword. (I know, line from last samurai.) Still, it is true. Either that or be able to control my mind enough to spontaneously combust. That would be a great way to die I think.

[wezzyfish]

Also, the second would not always stand ready in jodan. Different schools did things differently. The kaishaku I know, you wait in seiza. Then, without bringing knees together, you step up right foot and start to draw, then come back feet together and sword half drawn vertically. You then pull down on the saya and bring the sword over the shoulders, left hand open and resting on the koiguchi. You are standing in a relaxed sumo (sorry, I can't think of the japanese name right now. A sumo stance with heels inward.) facing your oppent. There you wait as he begins. As he leans over, you cut, meeting tsuka with your left hand, and cutting almost all the way through the neck, except for the front muscles on the sides. This is followed by returning to chudan, then a drip chuburi and reverse grip noto.

[MINAMOTO YOSHI]

hmmm. I think Seppuku does have a place in modern society although it is not commenly seen. Even though it is an old tradition it can still be applied today. We don't stop practicing kendo because it's ancient. It is a central part of my life and i would'nt give it up. As for seppuku if one feels that he has failed or dishonored himself he should legally be allowed to kill himself in whatever way he desires.

[KevinF]

I think that a discussion of suppuku here is tainted by the Judeo-Christian concept of sin (sumi) - a concept which never took root in Japan. Please take this into account when formulating your opinions regarding this tradition.

The rates for suicide in Japan are still much higher than in America and other places in the world - and I have seen Japanese people willing to pursue premanent solutions to temporary problems. In the winter of 2000, a student at the Higashi Junior School in Kazo City, Saitama took his life. I mention this because he was in the kendo club and I had practiced with him the day before he jumped off an overpass. He took off in the morning on his bicycle and rode over 10 miles away from the city, parked his bike, neatly placed his shoes and glasses along with a letter by his bicycle and jumped. It came out later than he was under a lot of pressure to perfrom well in school (as all Japanese junior high school students) and in kendo - his father was a policeman and apparently very "tough." He didn't like kendo very much and desperately wanted to be in another sports club at the school.

The point of this is that I think many westerners take their lives for different reasons - but I notice that the more romantic reasons spring to mind (unrequieted love, etc.). I found that in Japan, it seemed that many suicides were because expectations couldn't be fufilled. I don't think this has changed at all over the years. With a strict code of bushido, you can see that the expectations were raised to a level not attainable by most under a strict interpertation of the code. I think many of the samurai who really believed in this code could never fufill its expectations, and those who prospered were the ones who were able to bend the code under a more flexible interpertation.

[MINAMOTO YOSHI]

Yeah In the Main religions such as Christianity, Islam and Judisim Suicide is a Sin. ( Never really understood why )

[Hyaku]

Yeah In the Main religions such as Christianity, Islam and Judisim Suicide is a Sin. ( Never really understood why )

Also the definition of suicide is an act of self destruction usually associated with an imbalance of the mind, Ritual Suicice is a very poor translation of someone who considers their lifes purpose has been fulfilled and completed when thier lord dies such as "Junshi".

Self Immolation was banned in my area some time before is was banned nationaly for the reasons set out here.

http://www.hyoho.com/Hagakure1.html

[LarsCW]

hmmm. I think Seppuku does have a place in modern society although it is not commenly seen. Even though it is an old tradition it can still be applied today. We don't stop practicing kendo because it's ancient. It is a central part of my life and i would'nt give it up. As for seppuku if one feels that he has failed or dishonored himself he should legally be allowed to kill himself in whatever way he desires.
The only problem you would have if you wouldn't be succesfull killing yourself otherwise how much could any law do against you crossing it:=)

[bullet08]

if you really sit down and think about it.. death is easy.. life is hard.. so i don't understand what honor is in killing one self. lot of things are done due to tradition. ritual suicide is not something i would fully understand. altho, cutting open one's belly does sound rather painful then putting bullet in the head..

i rather prefer 'today is good day to die.. but tomorrow is better.'

pete

[Akai Bushi]

It is not possible to judge something like seppuku from our modern stand points. We have no idea what was going on in their heads. We probably can't imagin the amount of shame and dishonour that they felt. Now I don't think suicide is the answer, but I also can't say seppuku was stupid. All I can try and do is think of it from a samurai's stand point during the 18th century.
I guess I can think of it this way.
Choice A: Kill yourself and your wife and children live with the memory of a honorable father. They are taken care of and life is much easier for them.

Choice B: Don't kill yourself and the government executes you in shame. Your family is dishonored for generations to come. They struggle for generations trying to regain their honor. Good luck your son ever getting a good job in the Shogunate or Han government.

That's how I see it.

[Hyaku]

I would have said the two are related. Its not seppuku and they are not Samurai but they are "Japanese".

On the question of suicide in Japan I have seen all too many. The whole affair always remains confidential and never gets publicised. Many leave notes saying that they did not wish to be a burden on their familys.

In Buddhist lectures the subject constantly brought up is the ability to have served one life to the full how ever young you may be when its time to go and to pass on without sadness.

Yes its all very complicated. Most complicate of all is the inept incapability of Japanese to relate their innermost feelings. They are at most times very inward people who bottle things up and have it explode out of all proportion. What stand out most of all is the parents of suicide kids saying, We never knew what he was thinking". And it's still in "groups". Now they meet on the internet and agree to do it together.

I don't think its a matter of us understanding them. They don't even understand each other. A "lot" goes un-said here. You wonder whats happening and say to a friend, What did he mean? I didnt understand. The response is, Well I didn't understand either!" They seem to be very industrious ants/sheep that plod on regardless and lose a few on the way.

[Eldritch Knight]

When seppuku was still regularly practiced, people were still strongly religious and took the tenets of Buddhism strongly to heart, especially the warrior class. Keep in mind that when you're raised believing in a circular lifecycle, death is not something that is feared; you're merely reborn in a body chosen by the sins of your past life. Seppuku, an extremely painful form of death, was actually a form of penance, and thus would help to nullify the sins of their life so that they could hope for a better birth in the next. Of course, this is a very simple explanation. For more info, I suggest you check out this article (http://www.ykkf.org/2003/content/articles/ykkf_seppuku.html)

[JaungHyungMin]

It is not possible to judge something like seppuku from our modern stand points. We have no idea what was going on in their heads. We probably can't imagin the amount of shame and dishonour that they felt. Now I don't think suicide is the answer, but I also can't say seppuku was stupid. All I can try and do is think of it from a samurai's stand point during the 18th century.
I guess I can think of it this way.
Choice A: Kill yourself and your wife and children live with the memory of a honorable father. They are taken care of and life is much easier for them.

Choice B: Don't kill yourself and the government executes you in shame. Your family is dishonored for generations to come. They struggle for generations trying to regain their honor. Good luck your son ever getting a good job in the Shogunate or Han government.

That's how I see it.

That's just about the smartest thing about seppuku I've read since my master's philosophy. I particularly think that seppuku was a waste of human life and also a complete waste of a reknowned line of fantastic swordsmen, but of course, their Samurai code and their personal feelings towards seppuku are unfathomable.

[Charlie]

Hey, Jaung, welcome to the forum. Nice posts you've been writing around here, hope to hear more from you.