San Dan & Sensei Row

[scbang]

Just passed my Sandan test - Yeah!
Wehere I am, Sandan gets to sit with Senseis and don't have to pay tuition anymore. Is this kind of universal practice? Or is it different everywhere? Please post your response with your location.

If it's very different, someone good at this forum ( I'm kind of new ) may want to start a survey but I don't expect this to be that different.

SC

[Haowen]

You have to pay tuition before Sandan? Does that money go to the senseis directly or is it just club dues? Does it mean you're actually -making- money from giving instruction to the juniors now?

To clarify, tuition goes to pay the (usually professional) instructors, while club dues goes to cover dojo costs like venue rental. Not sure which one you're referring to....

[Neil Gendzwill]

Congratulations on passing your exam!

Who sits in the "sensei row" varies from club to club. In North America, yondan is often the cutoff rank. I advise that when visiting, you sit with the students unless asked otherwise.

[scbang]

I guess it's club dues - I don't think anyone's making any money here. I even think my head master receives some assistance from Japan ( Not sure just a guess - Don't think our dues are enough - there were times I was the only one under Sandan in my dojo )
Yes, I wouldn't think of sitting anywhere without checking with sensei first. I don't think I belong with sensis anyway, just what we do here.
Still trying to learn how to hit men correctly..
SC

[AlexM]

Wow. No dues once you hit sandan. Cool.
It don't work that way with us. The only one who pays no dues is the man at the top (he gets paid by the University's Athletics Dept. to teach us glorious kendo).

Our only sandan stays on the line like everyone else. Like someone else said, this varies from one dojo to another. Saturday I practiced at another place and they had two of their seniors (who's ranks escape me) sort of to the side as you describe. I think it would look a bit ridiculous if we only had one guy not lined up with the rest.

BTW, where do practice in NYC?

[ben]

Omedeto gozaimasu - Congrats on getting your 3-dan.

In Oz it's generally only 5-dan and above can be called sensei and sit on the "high" side. Just in case you're ever down our way...
;)
b

[ben]

BTW, when I saw the title of the thread I thought there was gonna be some juicy details about some 3-dan having a whacking great row as in 'dummy-spit' (ie 'tantrum') with their sensei: you know shinais thrown to the floor, storming out of the dojo without bowing, slamming doors, etc (it does happen).

Needless to say I was a bit disappointed...
;)

b

[KATSUJIN]

Congratulations on your SanDan rank....

[scbang]

AlexM - there are many fine dojos in NYC but I practice in Westchester county ( 25 miles north of NYC ) Kyudokan dojo.

Ben, sorry to disappoint you but I'm not that young and have seen too many kids who fast tracked to Dan rank doing that - not too many times in Kendo but more with TaeKwonDo and Judo.

SC

[scbang]

Kasujin - Thanks.

re:never draw ur sword in anger, hatred or jealousy.....for that leads to downfall of the spirit
Actually, many have lost their lives drawing their swords in anger, hatred or jealousy. We have a luxury of actually doing it and learning from it without losing our head.

SC

[kendokamax]

One guy who practiced in NYC visited our dojo, during summer for one time.

His last name was Caroll.
he was very good, nice classical kendo. I think he made team usa before?

Heard he was one of the first student of my sensei when he was in montreal, long time ago..
Is he from the same dojo as yours?

[munenmuso]

Our club's by-laws dictates that every member of the club should pay their dues except the 7dan headmaster, who teaches for free, and visiting sensei's from Japan who are usually ranked 5thdan.

I guess if you don't pay when your sandan already is a privilege as allowed by your club's by-laws whenever applicable,otherwise, I envy you. Wow.........

[Antonin]

Let's state the obvious: I think it depends very much what dojo you are in. examples:
In our dojo in London, the cutoff for sitting on the Sensei's side is fourth dan, most of the time. And at 5th dan, you stop paying the charge, which is not a fee for the instructor, but goes to maintenance of the equipment and renting of the hall.
On the other hand, in my 'old' dojo in Lille, in France, the cuttoff is 7th dan, with one or two senior 6th dans also allowed. the other 6th dans stay in the 'common mortals' lane :-) . And all, but the Sensei, pay the fee, payable each term. In that dojo it is a fee, since the Sensei is a professional and does kendo for a living...
Antonin

[Haowen]

Congrats on making san dan, scbang :)

I think it's a great idea to exempt the more senior kenshi from club dues since they probably give more than they receive :)

The reason why I was curious about tuition vs dues is that I think it's wonderful that every sensei seems to want to teach kendo out of pure enthusiasm for the art. Haven't heard of anyone who does it for money. This keeps the kendo culture wonderfully pure. It's awesome. :)

[scbang]

Howen and Kendokamax, let's try this..

There are numerous fine dojos in NYC & NJ metro near NYC - so I don't think I know the guy name Caroll - when we have a tournament in NYC we get more than 200 people from Ku to 7th Dan comepeting. And YES around NYC & NJ, there are many professional Kendo senseis making a living teaching Kendo as their main business. ( Not my Dojo but sometimes they visit my dojo )

SC

[Haowen]

Got nothing against professional kendo instructors, I think they're awesome too. I just think people who teach kendo pro bono are wonderful people :)

[AlexM]

Originally posted by scbang
AlexM - there are many fine dojos in NYC but I practice in Westchester county ( 25 miles north of NYC ) Kyudokan dojo.
SC

Wow. Westchester county: Home of the ultra-rich. I'm assuming your butler does the kata for you :D . Is everyone's bogu a hand-stiched, made-to-measure, imported from Japan, sharkskin dou set? When you travel to tournaments it's by private jet right? Sorry, I was exagerating. . . You do have a chauffeur though? Is staying in a three star hotel considered "slumming it"? ;)

I'll stop now before I really make a jackass out of myself...
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f***, too late. In my defense I'd like to say that I think I was "concussioned" on Saturday.

At least you're not from Greenwich.

[munenmuso]

Originally posted by Haowen
Congrats on making san dan, scbang :)

I think it's a great idea to exempt the more senior kenshi from club dues since they probably give more than they receive :)

The reason why I was curious about tuition vs dues is that I think it's wonderful that every sensei seems to want to teach kendo out of pure enthusiasm for the art. Haven't heard of anyone who does it for money. This keeps the kendo culture wonderfully pure. It's awesome. :)

I perfectly agree with Haowen but I don't have any qualms with sensei collecting fees for teaching, somebody has just to make a living . My 7thdan Japanese sensei does not collect a single cent eversince he started teaching in our club, I admire him for extending his knowledge in kendo for free so that others may learn it too. We pay dues for club operation and maintenance or purchase of new equipments and rental fee for the dojo. I think if he will charge for an hour the club dues will double including for those other visiting senseis from Japan.BTW, he's an executive of a construction firm here. The sad thing is that he'll be leaving next year for good and we might be replacing him with a professional sensei. But I still go for the purist one. Sayonaara sensei!!!Ganbatte!!!!

[scbang]

Wow. Westchester county: Home of the ultra-rich. I'm assuming your butler does the kata for you . Is everyone's bogu a hand-stiched, made-to-measure, imported from Japan, sharkskin dou set? When you travel to tournaments it's by private jet right? Sorry, I was exagerating. . . You do have a chauffeur though? Is staying in a three star hotel considered "slumming it"?

Yes AlexM, my chauffeur is so poor he can't afford to send his kid to Ivy League school :-) All kidding aside, we are jus regular folks with burning desire to have our heads beaten up. ( Not so hard hopefully - We've got 5 new high school students )

As for Munenmuso remark.
But I still go for the purist one. Sayonaara sensei!!!Ganbatte!!!!

I agree Amateur sensei's have their charms and enthusiasm but I find professional ones with better skills and savvy.

Ok you can now ask me about Same Do I was going to buy for everyone in my dojo for Christmas.

SC

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by scbang
I agree Amateur sensei's have their charms and enthusiasm but I find professional ones with better skills and savvy.
Actually, I've never heard of professionals outside of Japan except for NYC. There aren't any in Canada and somehow we do all right.

[JSchmidt]

I believe they got a couple of pro teachers in France?.

Anyways..I've always found that the ability to teach got little to with rank, but purely the ability to convey whatever you want to teach as simply and clearly as possible. (Although the best one I've seen, is my (mine!..all mine!) 7th Dan teacher. (No-pro)).

Jakob

[Matthew Lagden]

Jakob, we've had this conversation before - you're not batman ok?

you can't be, because i am batman. there can't be two of us.

[munenmuso]

Hey? Didn't you two noticed my location. You impostors. I still wear my underwear after my pants.Ok time to go, the bat signal is hovering the sky again.:D

[Matthew Lagden]

what, over your hakama as well? that would be something to see....

[Tato]

What? You mean that you wear underwear under your hakama (or over), yuck!

Free kendo! :D

Rei

[dLuXpN0i45]

WOw, thats really awesome, In our dojo people on the "sensei" row have always been the "5thdan and up" club.
Our sensei's also teach as volunteer, but we still pay for registration fees, and a fixed monthly fee of 10 bucks.

[scbang]

OK, so my sensei invited me last week to the sensei row. I awkardly move my stuff there and sit at the end. Now, let me ask a question. Is it OK to be called sensei? Is there any minimum rank before someone is called "sensei"? Not only I'm not used to it, I never thought myself as sensei.

SC

[KhawMengLee]

Hmmmnn....in Australia only Godan+ sits opposite us. My Dojo head/instructor is a yondan so no one sits across from us(we only have 1 godan and he's at another dojo).

I still call him Sensei (my instructor) because he's my teacher and I can't bring myself(out of respect+culture) to call him by his name. Though he did address that Sensei is only for Godan's above.

In Malaysia it is slightly different as Yondans get to sit on the Sensei row and are addressed as such.

[AlexM]

It's 5th dan and up north of the border for sensei. Although what you get called is probably up to you. If you like being called sensei (or sempai, master, bunny rabbit, whatever floats your boat) then I suppose you could insist on it (I myself insist on being called Monsieur le Marquis de Montparnasse, but that's another story. . . ) .

Some people dislike being called sensei because they feel it distances them from the other kenshi (and they don't feel they need it anyway). I call my own sensei "sensei" but I find it's more and more difficult because once you get to know someone it's tough to refer to people by their title (imagine calling a doctor friend "doctor"). It just seems odd. People who have known him longer than I have usually just use his first name (like Mr. Gendzwill on these very boards). He's stated to his students that he likes being called sensei to the extent that it designates him as a teacher, he just likes to impart stuff to others. I know some people now who will be sensei soon (probably) but I don't think I'll refer to them as "sensei", simply because they'll always be so and so whom I knew before they were "big" (tries to hold back laughter). I'll only call them sensei to tease them.

So it's up to you really.

[KhawMengLee]

I suppose its cultural as well. In my culture (chinese) we don't address our seniors(ie. parents, teachers, elders, etc) on a first name basis. It is a sign of respect eg.address elders as uncle or auntie even though they are not related.

Its hard to explain but once you live here a while you pick up the habits.

[Phorest]

(I myself insist on being called Monsieur le Marquis de Montparnasse

HAHAHAHA! :D

That one had me rolling. I don't even know why but...hehehe.

Its late. Sleepy time.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by scbang
OK, so my sensei invited me last week to the sensei row. I awkardly move my stuff there and sit at the end. Now, let me ask a question. Is it OK to be called sensei? Is there any minimum rank before someone is called "sensei"? Not only I'm not used to it, I never thought myself as sensei.

SC
Somewhere between 4th and 6th dan, depending on your situation and where you live, is where you begin to be referred to as sensei. In Canada, most people begin taking on instructor duties at 4th dan - they get "official" responsibility for teaching, often sit on the sensei side. However most people who are that rank aren't comfortable with being referred to as sensei, they're more like a junior instructor. By the time they're 6th dan then people habitually refer to them as "sensei".

So in your case, if you aren't comfortable being called sensei, then ask your students not to call you that. But if they respect your teaching and regard you as their instructor, then some may call you that anyways. That's the proper use of the term in my opinion - sensei is a term of respect you earn from your students, not a title you get automatically at a particular rank.

[scbang]

Good point Neil. When I started Kendo, I didn't know people's rank. Didn't know what it meant to sit opposite side of me ( Other MA I did only Head Master sit opposite side ).
I addressed them all sensei because they all taught me something.
Yes, once you're on the other side ( regardless of your rank ) you automatically teach more ( besides the point of "Teaching is twice learning ). When you have a long line in front of you, you don't get any chance at all to line up for your own lesson.

SC

[anogaijin]

Hello,
I have found that in Japan age sometimes plays a role in determining where one sits.

I started out teaching English in senior high schools. Currently, I teach in junior high and elementary schools. As such, I have had the opportunity to attend Sr. and Jr. High Kendo clubs. I am only a 2 dan but regardless, I am always asked by the Kendo club director to sit on the sensei side.

At first, I resisted because the very thought of sitting "uptown" mortified me. Especially, when you consider that at one of the high schools almost all of the 4th graders (seniors for the American readers) were 3 dans. However, my resistance seemed distress my hosts, not to mention make the kids nervous, so I stopped.

I thought that perhaps they wanted me to sit on the sensei side because I am a teacher. However, I have been to other practices outside of the school setting where I was asked to sit on sensei row because I am much older than the students are.

I believe that this is an example of the Japanese "tate shakai" or a vertical, age based, social hierarchy.

Thanks

[chidokan]

Dont think I'll ever get used to being called sensei! Got a Xmas card from one of my japanese teachers who prides himself on his english ( he has a nicer writing style than most English people!) with the first line of the address as Tim sensei...my wife cracked up nearly as much as I did. I suppose I sort of qualify according to Draegers book, 5th dan, over 45, my own club etc, but just cant get used to the idea, and maybe never will.
Last year I visited a dojo in Tokyo and was put on the senior side... I've never felt so embarrassed, although I was only junior to the sensei at the dojo. Had a great time there though..
I think its down to the fact that I've only had older sensei (over 70), so my subconscious tells me you have to be old to be one!!
Its not so bad when I go to seminars where people don't know me and they are karate people learning iaido for the first time. They all call anyone over 1st dan a sensei so you sort of go along with it..:rolleyes:

Tim Hamilton