Animal-Free Bogu

[A.Tuttle]

Greetings.
I am new to these forums and wish to take a moment to express my gratitude for its existence and to all who participate in it. It is clearly a valuable and excellent resource for all involved. So thank you.
As for my post, due to my beliefs, I wish to have Bogu with absolutely no animal skin whatsoever. I have contacted a number of companies and so far have received some varied responses. There seem to be no worries as far as the Do, Kote, and Tare are concerned, but the Men has a built in piece of a calf in it. One supplier told me it would be impossible for me not to have this, whilst another told me they would check if their manufacturer could replace it with plastic. Does anyone else have any information or input on this issue? I would greatly appreciate any and all thoughts.
Again, my sincere thanks to this site and all involved. That is all. Good day.
--A.Tuttle

[Paikea]

This was discussed in the thread http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4084&highlight=Vegan+bogu some time ago.

Please don't misunderstand my intentions - I'm not making fun of anyone - but I'm interested to know why as someone who obviously cares about animal rights issues, you choose to study an art whose basis is rooted in learning how to kill people?

[joekc6nlx]

Hmm, the only part of the men that I recall that has leather in it is around the mengane (faceguard). I don't know how they would work around this without having it in leather.

Also, the palm of the kote is usually leather, although if there is some other material available with the same performance and durability, I'm not aware of it.

The shinai has 3 or more parts of it that are leather - the tsuka, nakayui, and sakegomo. On my shinais, there is a 4th leather part on the tsuka to help wrap and tie the tsura. Again, if there are other synthetic materials available, I'm not aware of them.

My personal thoughts are diametrically opposed to yours, but I would not be so crass as to criticize your beliefs. :wink:

[joekc6nlx]

....as they say in football, "After further review....."

I apologize, I did not see the clarino kote on the e-bogu site until it was pointed out to me.

I don't know about the leather around the mengane, though. With the amount of abuse it undertakes, I'm not sure that there is a synthetic strong enough to hold it in, unless maybe they can put Kevlar in its place.

All of my bogu was bought with the maximum durability and protection in mind. I don't know of any synthetic that is as durable.

[Hai_hai]

Greetings.
I am new to these forums and wish to take a moment to express my gratitude for its existence and to all who participate in it. It is clearly a valuable and excellent resource for all involved. So thank you.
As for my post, due to my beliefs, I wish to have Bogu with absolutely no animal skin whatsoever. I have contacted a number of companies and so far have received some varied responses. There seem to be no worries as far as the Do, Kote, and Tare are concerned, but the Men has a built in piece of a calf in it. One supplier told me it would be impossible for me not to have this, whilst another told me they would check if their manufacturer could replace it with plastic. Does anyone else have any information or input on this issue? I would greatly appreciate any and all thoughts.
Again, my sincere thanks to this site and all involved. That is all. Good day.
--A.Tuttle
It is necessary to place dried calf's gall bladder in the shinobi and calf intestines in the tenken. Sorry, that's just the way it is. You could theoretically replace it with plastic, but then, it wouldn't be real.

[Lloromannic]

There is one thread on this.
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4084&highlight=vegan

However, you might also want to check Chiba Bogu (www.chibabogu). Their level of customisation is incredible and they might be able to help you

[kru$$ti]

This was discussed in the thread http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4084&highlight=Vegan+bogu some time ago.


Please don't misunderstand my intentions - I'm not making fun of anyone - but I'm interested to know why as someone who obviously cares about animal rights issues, you choose to study an art whose basis is rooted in learning how to kill people?

Hey-Hey!

I have to take A.Tuttle-San's side on this one... I would never knowingly harm or kill an animal (other than for food or self-defence) whereas I have no probs beating the living bejabers out of my fellow man with very little or no encouragement... The two are totally unrelated...

Are there any regulations that stipulate that any of the bogu / shinai parts have to be made of leather?

Generally, A.Tuttle-San, synthetic materials are associated with significantly inferior equipment... you may have to compromise some of your principles...?

cheers

kru$$ti

[Optomitrist]

yes, the highest quality is usuall animal parts and bamboo. (minus the shinai: carbon)
The only regulation as to differences in bogu parts and shinais is the size, dimensions and weight. I am pretty sure they would let you have an entire bogu made of soy if you prefered it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I have to take A.Tuttle-San's side on this one... I would never knowingly harm or kill an animal (other than for food or self-defence)
Well if you're willing to kill a cow for food, why object to using the leather? It's waste material otherwise. It's not like they raise cows just for leather. If your belief is that it's wrong to kill animals for our personal use, then just go whole-hog (wucka-wucka) with it like the OP. I don't take his stance personally but he's certainly entitled to his view. He may have some trouble in this case though - I don't think there's a huge market driving vegan-friendly bogu.

[A.Tuttle]

I very much appreciate the replies, and the link to the vegan discussion is indeed helpful. The Mengane area is the concern, and perhaps custom made is the only option. To address the specific query of why one interested in animal rights would study an art whose basis is in learning to kill people, I would suggest that, for me, Kendo, or any Martial Art, is not about learning how to harm anyone, but about spiritual growth, hence I do not see them as incompatible.
Again, thank you very much for input. It is very helpful.

[Neil Gendzwill]

for me, Kendo, or any Martial Art, is not about learning how to harm anyone, but about spiritual growth.
True enough, but the root of kendo is martial and the actual practise is very aggressive. It's not like aikido or taichi where the new-agey granola types can turn a blind eye to the martial side of things and pretend they're simply blending with the universe. In kendo, you hit people, hard and you get hit, hard, and there are winners and losers. If you're OK with that, cool.

[Optomitrist]

I personaly grow spiritually with every men I hit. I dont know what your talking about :confused2 Do not fear, Cows like getting made into bogu.

[Ninjujinkaku]

We call the granola aikido spirit friendly people aikifruities, I hope that they are dying out. As far as not wanting kendo equipment cause of animal parts??? stupid, did you know that plastic has animal parts ? mainly it has animal oils and fats http://www.lavelle.com/tech_plastic.html ,get over it and just buy the gear that you can afford and do the martial arts.

[kru$$ti]

True enough, but the root of kendo is martial and the actual practise is very aggressive. It's not like aikido or taichi where the new-agey granola types can turn a blind eye to the martial side of things and pretend they're simply blending with the universe. In kendo, you hit people, hard and you get hit, hard, and there are winners and losers. If you're OK with that, cool.

Hey-hey!

I get your drift Gendzwill-San... but would you practice your Men strikes against a helpless 'wittle' puppy for example... or a sweet 'icckle' calf...regardless of how much raw beef you had consumed prior to training...? I suspect not... (equally I would never acuse you of latent cannibalism !)

...and I was waiting for the leather bit... it's a bi-product, as you say, of the meat industry... so may as well use it to show the animals corpse some respect...!

I, personally only use footwear constructed out of tofu and beansprouts... they don't last long, but it's good for the 'sole'...!

So, what's my point...? Well... um... errr... not sure really... Just looking for the oportunity to make cheap puns I suppose...

With all humility and respect... (and a little more humility)...

kru$$ti

[Taek]

A.tuttle,

There is a company called Hasegawa. I'm pretty sure their men is made mostly with cotton and plastic even the material around mengane seems like plastic. It is called Mujun men. Check this link.
Good luck.

http://www.eguchi.net/hasegawa_men_side_600H.jpg

[Paikea]

We call the granola aikido spirit friendly people aikifruities, I hope that they are dying out. As far as not wanting kendo equipment cause of animal parts??? stupid, did you know that plastic has animal parts ? mainly it has animal oils and fats http://www.lavelle.com/tech_plastic.html ,get over it and just buy the gear that you can afford and do the martial arts.Hey, the guy has some convictions and he's trying to live up to them - can't fault that.

Watch out for the akifruities who can handle their jo.

[Ninjujinkaku]

lol aikifruities are the ones who often go this the part where you fall down now when doing a technique, jo or no jo i wouldnt be scared of these people.

[A.Tuttle]

Taek--thank you so very much for that link. That is exactly what I sought. Much obliged.

[Ninjujinkaku]

That headgear still contains plastic which contains animal parts and is probly weaker but whatever.

[ISSAC RU]

its a circle of life...~
think about it..we don't kill the cows..
we just send them to a better place called Cowie Heaven...
in there..there are planty of grass....and unpolluted sky...
em................................................ .

plus..we just use its body to make something thats really worth it ..
so...we should get credit of not wasting materials...
not those hippies....

[Taek]

Taek--thank you so very much for that link. That is exactly what I sought. Much obliged.
My pleasure A. Tuttle,

Actual Hasegawa website hasn't been working recently, however, it might be more convenient for you to shop at Eguchi as they are in America and I believe their price is pretty comparative. I bought a few things from them and they were very helpful.

http://www.eguchi.net/cart_index.htm

[Eiliries]

What's with all the hostility towards granola? I like granola, especially if it is smothered in chocolate...

[Kaoru]

I personaly grow spiritually with every men I hit. I dont know what your talking about :confused2 Do not fear, Cows like getting made into bogu.
:eek: :D Ahahaha!! ROFL!!! I nearly choked laughing when I read that! And, prey tell, how come you by such information?! Know you that to be true? :D Yonder cow knows not what fate lies him/her. Methinks said cow wouldst run far away if it knew whither it shall go. A cow knows not if it would wish to become bogu.

:D

Kaoru

[streetcleaner]

To address the specific query of why one interested in animal rights would study an art whose basis is in learning to kill people, I would suggest that, for me, Kendo, or any Martial Art, is not about learning how to harm anyone, but about spiritual growth, hence I do not see them as incompatible.

"Nowadays, apart from the unique situations that arise in times of war, there are almost no opportunities for us to cross swords in mortal combat. In place of the sword there are now more advanced and efficient weapons available. Consequently, to say that the aim of Kendo is “to destroy the enemy and to protect oneself” is naturally going to invite ridicule for such an outmoded idea.
No, within Kendo there is something to be sought of much greater value, something of profound spiritual significance. But to learn of this significance one cannot bypass the original function of Kendo as Bujutsu i.e. “to destroy the enemy and protect oneself”. It is only through a deadly earnest razor edged course of Kendo training that one can truly experience the lofty way towards spiritual understanding."

Noma Hisashi

[Antonin]

I am curious about what you are going to do about the shinai, after all the bits holding it together are made of leather, and I have never seen or heard of a non-leather shinai...
Also, I personally would not feel very comfortable to practice with someone using a shinai cobbled together with anything but leather. It is all very well to risk your own health with a non-leather bogu, but how would I know you wouldn't take my own eye out, or one of my friend's, not to mention my wife's, because the bamboo staves of your weapon would not be held properly?
While I respect your right to try and uphold your convictions in this way - although I realy don't agree with them - it may be necessary to compromise in some cases, and you may have to bite the bullet in this case.
Of course, it is possible that there are some shinai fitting made of some sort of synthetics that I am not aware of. In this case it would be OK with me!
Regards

[Optomitrist]

By Kaoru
:eek: :D Ahahaha!! ROFL!!! I nearly choked laughing when I read that! And, prey tell, how come you by such information?!
My bogu told me. It is hard to decifer all of the "moooo's" and "squeeks" but I
'm pretty sure it is more happy as a bogu than a living thing.

[Hank]

...stupid, did you know that plastic has animal parts ? mainly it has animal oils and fats http://www.lavelle.com/tech_plastic.html ,get over it and just buy the gear that you can afford and do the martial arts. This is my first post and I do it with all due respect. Plastics are usually petroleum based. Some plastics use chemicals derived from animal fats, yes, but I'd say they are in the minority. Also, the table you link to is only a rating of the particular plastic's resistance to different things, like "animal fats and oils", not what the plastic is made out of.

Hank.

[A.Tuttle]

I wish to thank all of those who provided valuable input and thoughts on this issue.
For the record, I have now had it confirmed that one can indeed have Bogu made to such specifications. The Hasegawa Men is necessary. Chibabogu.com provided excellent information about details and specifications as to how it can be done, down to the trim and loops and tie cords. If there is anyone else who has a similar disposition, I suggest that he or she contact them. You may also feel free to contact me and I will gladly share any and all information that I come across.
Again, my gratitude.

A.Tuttle

Heiho is Heiho

[DCPan]

I am curious about what you are going to do about the shinai, after all the bits holding it together are made of leather, and I have never seen or heard of a non-leather shinai...


Actually, most of the low-end shinai have synthetic leather parts.

[Hai_hai's_mom]

What's wrong with using animal products?

[joekc6nlx]

Hey! How many times are you guys going to ask A. Tuttle-san the same question - What's wrong with animal products? and the like. He's already made his point, and so have you. Now, leave the guy alone about his beliefs. He asked a legitimate question, there was no need for you all to jump on top of his men with all of the smart remarks.

This is supposed to be an informative forum, if you want to pin someone's ears back, use the "Flames" forum.

[Hai_hai's_mom]

Don't get your panties in a bunch girlfriend.... just asking a question.

[Kaoru]

My bogu told me. It is hard to decifer all of the "moooo's" and "squeeks" but I
'm pretty sure it is more happy as a bogu than a living thing.
Ahahaha, too funny! You remind me of this one Timpanist I knew(He died several years ago.) and what he told our class at his Timpani seminar that I went to one year. Oh yeah... Ever seen an orchestra? You know those big round drums in the back of the orchestra, of which there are four? Those are Timpani.

Anyway, calf skin heads are the best timpani heads you can buy, and they have the best sound as compared to synthetic heads. Well, somebody asked him a question about them, and he went on this explanation and explained how they are made and all. Then he goes, "Well, whenever I see a cow, I think of it as a walking timpani head." and he said something else too. Something similar to what you said. Of course, the class dissolved into laughter. I never could get that image out of my head for a very long time after that. Imagine a cow as a round disk walking around... :D

Ermmm... What did that have to do with bogu? Nothing... Oh well. ;)

Kaoru

[Ninjujinkaku]

That was ridiculous, Plus 2 smileys in that post....

[Kaoru]

That was ridiculous, Plus 2 smileys in that post.... Yeah, isn't it? He was really cool. Had great stories...

hehehe, I know. Want two more? *evil grin* :D :p

Kaoru

[Optomitrist]

I was in band back in the day... Although my instrument wasn't made of cows. That is why I made it up to them and bought some Bogu. Being they are happier in that state of course.