CKF awards hachidan

[Neil Gendzwill]

The Canadian Kendo Federation today announced that it has awarded hachidan (8 dan) to two of it's senior members, Asaoka-sensei and Kamata-sensei. Saskatoon Kendo Club would like to congratulate both of these gentlemen who have contributed towards the growth of kendo in Canada in general and our club specifically.

Asaoka-sensei is a long-time friend of Saskatoon Kendo Club, beginning when he and Miyaoka-sensei arrived in Canada one day apart and practised together in Renbu Dojo some 25 years ago. He was our guest instructor at our first and many subsequent seminars.

Kamata-sensei visited us last year for the first time as guest instructor at our seminar and was excellent. We have invited him back for a second year, so for those of you who would like a chance to learn from a freshly-minted hachidan, Kamata-sensei will be in Saskatoon at our annual seminar March 4-6.

[bamboo_stick]

Just a thought...

Has the CKF always had the power to award 8 dan?
Or is this something new?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Any national federation has the power to award rank as it sees fit.

[kuzu70]

Did these senseis have to take a test or something to get 8-dan?

[Fonsz]

Neil GendzwillAny national federation has the power to award rank as it sees fit.

I am sure that these Sensei are very well equiped to achieve the grade of Hachidan. But I always thought that you could only achieve this grade during examinations in every half year in Japan. But shouldn't the people that have elevated these Sensei also be at least Hachidan for quite some time? Don't wanna spoil the fun here but I'm just curious that's all. Carry on with the party please and hopefully I can meet one of these esteemed gentlemen.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The examinations held in Japan are for the ZNKR, Japan's national organisation. The CKF, like other IKF member countries, recognises ranks achieved in Japan or any other member country. But neither the ZNKR nor the IKF is responsible for rank in Canada, that is purely CKF's responsibility. People get confused about this all the time. Just because it is possible to attain a rank in Japan, doesn't mean the Japanese are the central authority for rank. Under IKF rules, that job is given to each country.

I don't know the details of how the CKF central grading committee came to their decision, and it's not my place to enter into any discussions or speculations about their qualifications. The IKF recognises their right and ability to award these ranks.

[kendokamax]

hum I still believe that hachidan should be awared by taking the test in Japan.

I'm sure that they would have prefered getting it in Japan too.

By the way can they still try to pass the exam in Japan even thought they have officialy CKF hachi dan?

[Mikeyprime]

hum I still believe that hachidan should be awared by taking the test in Japan.

I'm sure that they would have prefered getting it in Japan too.

By the way can they still try to pass the exam in Japan even thought they have officialy CKF hachi dan?
What would be the reasoning behind it. Hachidan est hachidan est hachidan semper.

I know that attaining kodansha ranks is Japan is just more prestigious to some people. I would be happy receiving my Hachidan through my national federation. Granted, I would feel more accomplished and grateful to have taken it in Japan and passed.

[jmarsten]

Just a clarification on this subject. The IKF ranking guidlines and regulations cover specific criteria for 1 Kyu through 7 Dan. Shogo and Hachidan are left up to each country to determine their own respective criteria. Below 1 kyu is basically a rank for children, but has been adopted outside of Japan (can't speak to Korea and Taiwan) to include adults with greatly varying standards depending on the country. The current USA hachidan were granted their rank in a similar manner to which Canada has done for the two afore mentioned sensei and those in the past that were awarded hachidan. The Japanese hachidan is for all intents and purpose restricted to professional kendo practitioners. Even then many of those do not ever make it. The teacher in France who's name escapes me right now was the first individual not living in Japan and training under those conditions that I have ever heard of passing that test. I believe he passed about 2 years ago.
At this years Tokyo kodansha test in November the individuals taking the 7 Dan exam were told unless they were professionals they could forget about making 8 Dan. Since there is no longer a 9th or 10th Dan being awarded in Japan the bar has been raised for 6,7 and 8. I know in my personal experience for my group only about 8% passed the test for 7 Dan. The pass ratio for 8 Dan is about 1%. This years Tokyo test had 1300+ and I was told 13 passed.

However the statement the 8 is 8 is 8 is really not true if we compare quality and ability between the Japanese standard and all others. Unless you are gifted and train in that enviroment for years there is now way you can reach the standard of excellence that examination requires.
So if a national organization wishes to award hachidan to some of it's members than it is a good thing as long as the criteria is standardized and followed. If it becomes GOB awards that is very bad.

[Iviro]

The teacher in France who's name escapes me right now was the first individual not living in Japan and training under those conditions that I have ever heard of passing that test. I believe he passed about 2 years ago.
I think you are referring to Yoshimura sensei, I read an article about him it said he also graduated from Tokyo University which isn't particularly reknown for kendo

[Alex_McGrady]

The examinations held in Japan are for the ZNKR, Japan's national organisation. The CKF, like other IKF member countries, recognises ranks achieved in Japan or any other member country. But neither the ZNKR nor the IKF is responsible for rank in Canada, that is purely CKF's responsibility. People get confused about this all the time. Just because it is possible to attain a rank in Japan, doesn't mean the Japanese are the central authority for rank. Under IKF rules, that job is given to each country.

I don't know the details of how the CKF central grading committee came to their decision, and it's not my place to enter into any discussions or speculations about their qualifications. The IKF recognises their right and ability to award these ranks.But the ZNKR created the IKF...in fact many members are the same.... I know for certain that if I tested in the US for my shodan under AUSKR, and tried to take 2dan in Japan under the ZNKR, I would not be allowed. I know this from experience. I heard it is easy to have the IKF recognize the rank and then test in Japan at a IKF event like the summer camp in Saitama. But it would be very hard to take that rank and test under a normal ZNKR grading. I have seen this attempted as well.

Perhaps, those of us who are outside of the Japan Federation, the IFC is the next best thing.

Did these senseis have to take a test or something to get 8-dan?Great point and that is what makes this thread so controversial. In Japan, only a very small, tiny portion of all 8-dan test takers actually pass the once a year test. Making it a special honor to receive. Come on, most of us saw that documentary on the 8-dan test struggle in Japan.... it is brutal.

However, The CKF is not Japan and they have the authority to award whatever ranks they see fit to whom ever they believe to be of that ability level. In no doubt, this is still a great honor. But without testing, most people would be hesitant to believe the granting of such a level. Well...me too but like Neil said... it is Canadian.

Now, pass me another beer a, I'm moving to Canada to get me a 8-dan too....No, no.... I said a beer.......take off you hoser!!!

Alex

[kanyil]

Congratulations to Asaoka-sensei and Kamata-sensei! Congratulations to the CKF!

As Neil said, the rules said the individual organizations are free to award their hachidans and shogos. If hachidans could only be granted after a test held by many other hachidans, then the above provisions of the rules would simply not work, because not many countries other than Japan will have enough hachidans to do a hachidan shinsa.

I believe every country (even Japan) went through, or will eventually go through the birthpains of having to go through a stage where hachidans are either awarded, or graded by many respected nanadans so that they will actually have enough hachidans at some point in the future to actuall be able to test future hachidans. Otherwise how did the first Japanese hachidans came about?

People outside of Japan and Korea do not generally do kendo professionally, and therefore the conditions are different. I believe the above rules were wise to allow the awarding of hachidans and shogos by the individual organizations, and infact are intended to address exactly this issue.

[ISSAC RU]

when I was 13 i was in Yoshinkan Kendo dojo..which Mr. Asaoka is the sensei.
I seen he does keiko with his brother M.Asaoka...man that was crazy..
it was like 20 min of fighting non-stop ...sparkle..and everything..

[Alex_McGrady]

...People outside of Japan and Korea do not generally do kendo professionally...Kanyil-san, can you explain what you mean by professionally? You mean as a job or something???

Alex

[kanyil]

Yes, more or less.

There are kendo squads in Japanese companies and police forces where people's main jobs are to train and compete while getting paid. Japanese Kendo PE teachers also more or less do kendo professionally.

Unlike most of us who has a different job, and only do kendo after work, kendo is their job.

[Kendoka]

But the ZNKR created the IKF...in fact many members are the same....
Some misconceptions are among the good comments above.
The AJKF (or ZNKR) established the IKF, but only with the support and involvement of the other founding nations.
I know for certain that if I tested in the US for my shodan under AUSKR, and tried to take 2dan in Japan under the ZNKR, I would not be allowed. I know this from experience.
If you are a member of an IKF affiliate you can be exaimined in Japan by the AJKF, with the permission of your national body. I and many of my kendo and iaido friends have been examined in Japan, from 1 kyu to 6 dan.I heard it is easy to have the IKF recognize the rank and then test in Japan at a IKF event like the summer camp in Saitama. But it would be very hard to take that rank and test under a normal ZNKR grading. I have seen this attempted as well.
... Alex
The grading exam at Summer School is conducted by the AJKF. The IKF do not conduct gradings. It is not easy or hard to have the AJKF recognise your current grade, there is a process that starts with being graded in your own country, then providing proof and permission to the AJKF when you apply to be examined for the next level. And yes it is hard to be examnied in Japan, would you want it to be easy?

[jmarsten]

I think you are referring to Yoshimura sensei, I read an article about him it said he also graduated from Tokyo University which isn't particularly reknown for kendo
Correct that is the sensei. I have a magazine from the early 70's which had a story on him teaching kendo in France. He was 4 Dan at that time. So his feat of passing the Japan hachidan test was all the more amazing.

[jmarsten]

when I was 13 i was in Yoshinkan Kendo dojo..which Mr. Asaoka is the sensei.
I seen he does keiko with his brother M.Asaoka...man that was crazy..
it was like 20 min of fighting non-stop ...sparkle..and everything..
I believe you have the son's confused with their father. The two your referring to are Motoki and Suguru Asaoka, they are brothers. Their father Mitsuru Asaoka is the one that was awarded hachidan. He made it through the first level in the AJKF test a few times.

[Pan-Chan]

There are kendo squads in Japanese companies and police forces where people's main jobs are to train and compete while getting paid. Japanese Kendo PE teachers also more or less do kendo professionally.

Unlike most of us who has a different job, and only do kendo after work, kendo is their job.

Ohhhhh man... I really, really wish I could do that. That is now what my answer to "If you could have three wishes, what would they be?" is. I never knew that they actually got paid to do Kendo. I always thought it was just a way that a group of kenshi working at a company could have a team. Wow, you learn something new everyday.

[ISSAC RU]

Thx....jmarsten

it was a long time memory from now...

[Matlock]

Yes, more or less.

There are kendo squads in Japanese companies and police forces where people's main jobs are to train and compete while getting paid. Japanese Kendo PE teachers also more or less do kendo professionally.

Unlike most of us who has a different job, and only do kendo after work, kendo is their job.I am not sure about that.... My sensei will challenge the 8th dan exam this year. He is the IT Director for a small Japanese university. The major Japanese corporation that I work for here in Tokyo, has a kendo club but the members are far from professional kendo players and not getting paid for kendo.... and...uh....now that I think about it, aside from the police and gym teachers....who else gets paid to teach kendo? All the sensei that I know also have another job or career. They just do the kendo on the side as a hobby or even afterwork lifestyle... (hey, beats playing Pachinko). Kendo is their job??? While training at the local police station, I talked to an achieved policeman about how nice it would be to practice kendo everyday. He said that it ain't like it used to be, kendo is less of a focus these days...paperwork, patrols and guard assignments have taken priority. Japanese PE teachers teaching kendo??? Have you ever been to a school here in Japan??? School kendo clubs are usually ran by the teacher, as a duty, or ran by the community kendo players who volunteer. Maybe a few teachers that teach at a university or something.... but would have to be a kendo university.

I think that the term "professional" is just a way of saying "hooked in the system"...the system of the ZNKR, that is. If not, trully professional kendo players are very uncommon.

Just my thoughts....

[Alex_McGrady]

If you are a member of an IKF affiliate you can be exaimined in Japan by the AJKF, with the permission of your national body. I and many of my kendo and iaido friends have been examined in Japan, from 1 kyu to 6 dan.Thanks kendoka-san, can you, by chance, explain the process you went throught. I have a heck of a time trying to figure out which Federation recognizes which ranks. I tested in Japan for my shodan back in 1995 and I had one of the grading sensei come up and asked me if I had promoted to 1-kyu in Japan. I said yes, and he said if I did not, then I could not test. The exact same thing happened to me during my 2-dan test in Japan. The verified that is was a Japanese shodan. So, perhaps it is related to the Prefecture's Kendo federation? I am not sure, but by them saying what they did, isn't strange?

And yes it is hard to be examined in Japan, would you want it to be easy?None of my promotions in Japan, in iaido or kendo, have been anything but grueling. Blood, sweat and tears, my friend....blood, sweat and tears.

Alex

[JSchmidt]

The reason that they might have been reluctant to let you grade in Japan , not knowing that your previous grade was taken there, is as mentioned above. You would need permission from your own national organisation in order to grade abroad.

The process is quite simple. You find a place to grade and you then get the president of your national organisation to write a letter to the grading organisation that you have their permission to attempt the grading.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

I believe you have the son's confused with their father. The two your referring to are Motoki and Suguru Asaoka, they are brothers. Their father Mitsuru Asaoka is the one that was awarded hachidan. He made it through the first level in the AJKF test a few times.
As a matter of fact, both Asaoka (Mitsuru) sensei and Kamata-sensei have made the cut at the 8th dan exam. These gentlemen are extremely strong kendoka and excellent teachers.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think that the term "professional" is just a way of saying "hooked in the system"...the system of the ZNKR, that is. If not, trully professional kendo players are very uncommon.
Instructors for police prefectural dojos, coaches for college teams, PE teachers for some high schools, even (as I understand it) some people who teach privately - there are quite a few professionals or semi-professionals.
Thanks kendoka-san, can you, by chance, explain the process you went throught.
I think all you need is a copy of your certificate and a letter from your federation granting you permission to grade. In Canada, all you need is the certificate.

[kendokamax]

I think, officialy, professional kendoka are only Tokyo Police and Osaka Police special kendo force and University Teacher that actually teach kendo in class like at Budo University. For the other the policemen job takes the priority.

High school teachers are mostly just Physical Educator that happens to have become physical educator because they studied at university and were doing kendo as a sport 'of reasearch' haha. They teach kendo in the club practice and sometimes in classes too but with no connection with the kendo club (so mostly beginners)..I'm sure however, the unnofficial but real reason they get their job is because of their knowledge of kendo so the club becomes stronger and people get interested in joining the school because of the strong club...fame etc.

So it's not their profession but .......the most important part of their job

[nalogg]

The Canadian Kendo Federation today announced that it has awarded hachidan (8 dan) to two of it's senior members, Asaoka-sensei and Kamata-sensei. Saskatoon Kendo Club would like to congratulate both of these gentlemen who have contributed towards the growth of kendo in Canada in general and our club specifically.

Asaoka-sensei is a long-time friend of Saskatoon Kendo Club, beginning when he and Miyaoka-sensei arrived in Canada one day apart and practised together in Renbu Dojo some 25 years ago. He was our guest instructor at our first and many subsequent seminars.

Kamata-sensei visited us last year for the first time as guest instructor at our seminar and was excellent. We have invited him back for a second year, so for those of you who would like a chance to learn from a freshly-minted hachidan, Kamata-sensei will be in Saskatoon at our annual seminar March 4-6.
HOORAY FOR KAMATA SENSEI! yeahhhhh etobicoke style baby
(and congrats to Asaoka sensei too)

[kuzu70]

I understand the controversy will continue, but I am still of the belief that a 8-dan awarded in any other country besides Japan is different. I won't comment on how different, but different. I believe there are documentaries of people trying to achieve 8-dan in Japan and it is just insane.

Just the same, congratulations to Asaoka-sensei and Kamata-sensei on their monumental acheivement.

[ben]

This is a very interesting issue. Thanks to Gendzwill and Marsten sensei for the info. I didn't know the AUSKF had also awarded some 8-dans in the same manner. This is obviously an issue for all "foreign" national kendo federations. My personal view of the Australian situation is that we are still a fair way off having to make this decision, both because we are still a relatively junior kendo nation and also, because of proximity and the high number of visits from professional Japanese kendo (and iaido and jodo) teachers, we are still somewhat in Japan's shadow. We are currently debating the manner in which the AKR might award shogo, a similar discussion because we are talking about an award, not a performance exam.

This is the crux of the matter IMHO. The 8-dan exam in Japan is a performance test judged by peers (or superiors). 8-dan in any other country is an award, an 'elevation', in regognition of both skill and contribution to kendo (which is how shogo functions, n'est pas?). As someone wisely pointed out above, how else can it start? Nevertheless as a result of this action, there now two kinds of 8-dans.

A lot to think about...

b

[Martino]

We are currently debating the manner in which the AKR might award shogo, a similar discussion because we are talking about an award, not a performance exam.

Actually we were speaking about shogo, renshi and hanshi last night after training. Don't quote me on this but
Shogo = champion
Renshi = master
Hanshi = grand master

When asked about the criteria for Renshi and Hanshi, we just looked at each other blankly. The problem been how do you translate Eastern philosophy into English. And how do you express a standard that the author(s) has not yet obtained.

When it came to Shogo though that is an acknowledgement of additional technical proficiency. So one of the criteria for that could be been National Champion X times/ reaching a specified round at the world championships.

To me personally it feel like us picking someone to the Renshi, would be like Japan picking a new 9th/10th Dan. What are we looking for, how can we tell they have reached that standard, is your judgement been clouded by personal feeling for the person etc.

[Alex_McGrady]

Actually we were speaking about shogo, renshi and hanshi last night after training. Don't quote me on this but
Shogo = champion
Renshi = master
Hanshi = grand master
Hi, Martino-san, how are you? I'm super, thanks for asking.

I was under the belief that it was;

Renshi = qualified player: after obtaining 6th dan
Kyoshi = qualified teacher: after obtaining 7th dan
Hanshi = master: after obtaining 8th dan

I have no idea about it, like in most things... people say so many different things even if they all know what they are talking about. Like if you are in a kendo class and you have two very high ranked teachers telling you two different ways to do the exact same move in a kata. Happens to me all the time.

No clue :ko:

Alex

[Neil Gendzwill]

When it came to Shogo though that is an acknowledgement of additional technical proficiency.
Shogo aren't about technical proficiency, that's what dan-i are for. Shogo are teaching licenses. Renshi is a master teacher, kyoshi is a teacher of teachers. Hanshi is above that, the translation means "exemplary/model person", meaning this is a person to model your own life after. The idea is that they extend beyond technical ability and acknowledge contributions towards the teaching and promotion of kendo. As I understand it.

[Alex_McGrady]

Shogo aren't about technical proficiency, that's what dan-i are for. Shogo are teaching licenses. Renshi is a master teacher, kyoshi is a teacher of teachers. Hanshi is above that, the translation means "exemplary/model person", meaning this is a person to model your own life after. The idea is that they extend beyond technical ability and acknowledge contributions towards the teaching and promotion of kendo. As I understand it.Thanks for the explanation. I have a better idea now.

Alex

[Nishi]

...Hanshi is above that, the translation means "exemplary/model person", meaning this is a person to model your own life after. The idea is that they extend beyond technical ability and acknowledge contributions towards the teaching and promotion of kendo.

Interesting... after 6th dan in Aikido the Aikido-ka is eligable for the title 'shihan' (hanshi in reverse) which replaces sensei, if my memory serves correct....

[Neil Gendzwill]

Shihan is not the reverse of hanshi. The "han" character is the same, meaning model or example but the "shi" in shihan means teacher, while the "shi" in hanshi means person. See this article (http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss9.html) for more detail.

[Martino]

Thanks for adding a bit more information Alex and Neil.

Like I said in my orginal post, the big trick is going to be not losing the meaning and focus from the interpertation of Easten into Western Languages.

What is the edicate when you have a 6th Dan Renshi and a 7th Dan (no extra title)?

[Kendoka]

Thanks kendoka-san, can you, by chance, explain the process you went throught. I have a heck of a time trying to figure out which Federation recognizes which ranks. I tested in Japan for my shodan back in 1995 and I had one of the grading sensei come up and asked me if I had promoted to 1-kyu in Japan. I said yes, and he said if I did not, then I could not test. The exact same thing happened to me during my 2-dan test in Japan. The verified that is was a Japanese shodan. So, perhaps it is related to the Prefecture's Kendo federation? I am not sure, but by them saying what they did, isn't strange?

Alex
Sure, I'll try. The AKR is an IKF affilliate as is the AJKF. When our members wish to be examined in Japan, they ID the opportunity, like at Summer School, then apply.

In the case of AKR members they fill out two forms, 1 for the AKR process and one that is sent to the AJKF. The AJKF application form is sent to the AJKF (by the due date) along with a letter of permission from the AKR and a certified copy of the certificate for the applicants current grade.
The all they have to do is get there on time and do it !!

[Kendoka]

... I have a heck of a time trying to figure out which Federation recognizes which ranks.
Alex

My only experince is with affilliates of the IKF. If IKF affilliates follow the AJKF Standard Rules for Grading and I expect that most would, then a grade awarded by an affilliate is recognised by other IKF affilliates, such as the AJKF.

In the case of Australian AKR members who go to Japan, their grade is recognised by AJKF senseis, dojos and the structure.

For organisations that are not members of, or affilliated to the IKF, the above may not apply.

In Australia we have had instances where experienced kendoka have joined (AKR affilliated dojo) us, their grade is not recognised and they have to be exaimined in our structure to get onto our grading ladder.

[Nishi]

Shihan is not the reverse of hanshi. The "han" character is the same, meaning model or example but the "shi" in shihan means teacher, while the "shi" in hanshi means person. See this article (http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss9.html) for more detail.

good article, thanks.

Ive never seen the kanji for either (nor would i understand them if i did :smiley: ) I was more suprised to find out Ueshiba O'sensei was 1/256th Irish honestly.

[Kingofmyrrh]

These days, to get renshi and kyoshi (not sure about hanshi) you just have to do your time at seminars to make sure that you know enough about stuff like kata and refereeing. I actually know of one teacher (7th dan, but only because he's not old enough to take his 8th yet) who has made a point of avoiding all shogo, because if he gets them then he will have to spend some of his time teaching seminars and teaching abroad, when all he really wants to do is to train with his university students. I think that this is a pretty admirable attitude, but it causes him a lot of problems, especially as one of his direct seniors since his university days is high up in znkr and apparently looks bad because of it.

[nalogg]

I still believe that hachidan should be awared by taking the test in Japan.

I'm sure that they would have prefered getting it in Japan too.

Hmm, i'll say that to get hachidan in japan probably "means more" in terms of kendo being a hobby and a tradition, kinda like a pilgrimage to mecca.
But a rank is still a rank and as long as it's awarded by the proper authorities, i don't understand why anyone would consider it a "cheaper" way of getting the rank. With no disrespect to japan, it's silly to be so elite, or to consider themselves the be-all end-all of kendo.. it's become international, and if you can get hachidan in your own country maybe that means more to you... it depends on your personal feelings.

[Yo...osh!]

Sorry a bit off topic...I don't think this question has been asked.

Since there seem to be quite a few hachidan awarded in Korea and Taiwan, does anyone know what the requirements are for passing?

I would assume the judging panel would be made up of nanadans as well as a few hachidans. But how many? How many years experience as nanadan or hachidan? How many votes needed to pass?

Of course I watched the documentary about hachidans, I would like to know how tough the test is in Korea and Taiwan is compared to Japan.

If anyone knows that would be great! If anyone knows the requirements for any other country that's also welcome!