Musashi or Tesshu?

[Musha]

I was just reading a link for another post that goes as followes:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Few succeeded at tachigiri
Among Yamaoka Tesshu’s (1836-1888) disciples, only a few manage to accomplish the three tachigiri tests and received the menkyo-kaîden. One of them, called Hasegawa, manage to go through the seven days tachigiri, but wasn’t completely successful and was only when he was about to die that he received, from the hands of Tesshu, the menkyo-kaîden title.
The name of Sazaburo Takano (1862-1950) has already been mentioned here before, and he was one of the few who successfully overcame the three tachigiri. “Forged” by the sword of Tesshu, he is one of the masters who left is mark on the beginning of the XX century’s kendo. The famous phrase: “Don’t win after hitting, hit after winning” it’s his. It’s even more elucidative if we relate it with Tesshu’s “formula”: “The sword doesn’t exist outside the spirit.” (shin gaï muto) that, it seems to me, symbolizes his art.
Starting next article, we’ll see how the kendo adepts of the first generation used to practice their art.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was wondering who likes Miyamoto Musashi more? and who likes Yamaoka Tesshu? I have read about Miyamoto Musashi and Tesshu and to me Tesshu is much better. He became enlightened through practicing his kendo and I think trained in a very pure way.

The story of Miyamoto musashi is very vague but people believe he developed great strength which people should repect, not just in kenjyutsu but real life. He does seem like a robin-hood figure that came about again only about 100 years ago maybe to help Japanese people to become better besides beating people and gaining fame and other things. What do you think? :D

Yamaoka tesshu (http://www.traditionaloshigata.com/articles/Tesshu.htm)

Musashi (http://www.samurai-archives.com/musashi.html)

[Holmgren-san]

This is a little off-topic but: Musha, I see that you live in Saitama, well I am just curious to know if you know/have heard of Yamanaka sensei(8th Dan) and/or Saito sensei(7th Dan)?



P.S. I went with Musashi, I haven't heard anything before of Tesshu.

[kendokamax]

woah paul martin wrote the text on Yamaoka tesshu....scary

I voted for neither.
hum I think vagabond is a fun manga. Musashi kicks ass in it.
There is no manga on tesshu so I dont know! haha

[musashi270]

I have read biography's on both of them and much of their writings, and they are both exellent fighters. they have both contributed to not just the art of the sword, but also the the world of art and calligraphy (especally tesshu, 1 million!!!.) I voted for their being equal because musashi might have been the better fighter, but tesshu did many more things other than the art of the sword. Of course, tesshu is the father of modern kendo.

( I know that this must sound weird coming frome one with my username:wink:.)

[ZealUK]

Both men were undoubtedly greatly interesting and influential figures in the history of Japanese martial arts. Having said this there are lots of reasons why they are incomparible. Although they shared a common goal, namely the perfection of sword technique, each man lived in a completely different era.

If you are interested in Tesshu, read John Steven's "Sword of No Sword - Life of the Master Warrior Tesshu". Also Kenji Tokitsu's "Miyamoto Musashi - His Life and Writings", and William Scott Wilson's "Lone Samurai" are good references.

Also the Muto Ryu website is

http://www5d.biglobe.ne.jp/~mutoryu/page1/main.htm

There are some clips of Muto Ryu and Itto Ryu waza on there using Oni Gote which are interesting.

If you like calligraphy as well, there are some examples of Tesshu's work here...

http://www.shambhala.com/zenart/html/gallery/budo.cfm

...some by Nakayama Hakudo and also various others. Some Yokozuna handprints as well.

[Musha]

Does any one actualy know how Musashi helpt martial arts though? He beat some people and wrote a book and opened a school some with a ryu-ha some people practice now..

I think Tesshu popularised kendo and helped to turn martial arts from combat skills to spiritual practices.

[ZealUK]

The view that Tesshu alone changed combat arts to spiritual practices is frankly very naieve. Tesshu was a buddhist, and practiced zazen daily. This probably constituted more to his satori experience than daily training in sword arts.

You have to remember Musashi lived at the end of the Sengoku Jidai, and Tesshu lived at the end of the Tokugawa shogunate and the start of the Meiji era. Musashi's art was developed initially to kill people. A transformation occurred throughout his life, beginning at the age of 29/30 after defeating Sasaki Kojiro. This transformation from Satsujin no Ken to Katsujin no Ken was indicative of his high level of mastery of the sword arts. Others like Yagyu Mnunenori had similar experiences. They were formative in the creating of bujutsu as a system developed from the experiences of warriors learned in the previous years of civil war.

By Tesshu's time most of the samurai class had become ineffectual beurocrats, and even those who maintained the practice of sword arts rarely had call to use them. This was the transition from bujutsu to budo. Practice for refinement of character and technique. Part of Tesshu's contribution was to keep this alive, even after the abolition of the class that propogated these arts.

Anyway read those books I suggested.

[KenShi_JoB]

Couldn't agree more :)

The view that Tesshu alone changed combat arts to spiritual practices is frankly very naieve. Tesshu was a buddhist, and practiced zazen daily. This probably constituted more to his satori experience than daily training in sword arts.

You have to remember Musashi lived at the end of the Sengoku Jidai, and Tesshu lived at the end of the Tokugawa shogunate and the start of the Meiji era. Musashi's art was developed initially to kill people. A transformation occurred throughout his life, beginning at the age of 29/30 after defeating Sasaki Kojiro. This transformation from Satsujin no Ken to Katsujin no Ken was indicative of his high level of mastery of the sword arts. Others like Yagyu Mnunenori had similar experiences. They were formative in the creating of bujutsu as a system developed from the experiences of warriors learned in the previous years of civil war.

By Tesshu's time most of the samurai class had become ineffectual beurocrats, and even those who maintained the practice of sword arts rarely had call to use them. This was the transition from bujutsu to budo. Practice for refinement of character and technique. Part of Tesshu's contribution was to keep this alive, even after the abolition of the class that propogated these arts.

Anyway read those books I suggested.

[Hisham]

He beat some people and wrote a book and opened a school some with a ryu-ha some people practice now..
The way you're puting it is somewhat insulting to the man and his influence on the japanese culture in general, IMHO you don't know what you're talking about as far as Musashi's concerned, your view of him is that of one that has only touched the surface, as such your argumentation's flawed, actually the fact that you made it about "Musashi vs Tesshu: who's the best?" is a nonsense no offence.I think you should read the books that ZealUK suggested to have a better ubderstanding of why i said the above.
Something else as far as the quotes you posted about Tesshu's concept when it comes to combat, i humbly tell you that those are old philosophies of combat rephrased in other way by another master, like for instance Bruce lee's "water" famous quote.The thing is realizing those concepts and living by them is a great accomplishment in itself which is to the credit of Tesshu.
To end my intervention, the two senseis have both exeled in there own way which got them the respect of their peers and the generations of budo folowers that came after them to this day.This post is not intended to belittle you Musha but i felt some points had to be cleared.

[Musha]

I haven't read the one mentioned about Musashi but I borred the book about Tesshu and read afew chapters. I made this topic to try and find out how people thought about the two.

Maybe I should have named it 'Who contributed the most to the progression of kenjyutsu in general.'

To me Musashi seems a little of a kenjutsu hero to people who are new to the art. His book is extreemly good but you know Steven Hawking isn't the greatest scientist in the world. He is the most famouse..

[ZealUK]

I think your Stephen Hawking comparison is a little off the mark.

Scientists throughout history have always recorded their discoveries, and theories. Comparatively few martial artists have written comprehensive treatises on their arts.

This is probably because the martial artist transmits his knowledge through physical practice and training, leaving little room for written instruction. The written instruction that exists is often some kind of training note, to jog the memory about something learned through physical exertion.

Musashi was able to vividly capture and record the high level that he achieved. He only managed to do this towards the end of his life. My point is that you couldn't write something like Go Rin No Sho without physically understanding the principles that are part of the book.

To suggest that an interest in Musashi is something of a preoccupation of beginners is also tenuous. In Tokitsu's book there are several Hachidan Kendoka who write articles about their interpretations of Musashi's Hyoho. I remember reading an intwerview with Iwata sensei which stated he thought Go Rin No Sho was the best treatise on swordsmanship he had ever read...

"I found GORIN NO SHO explained by Kobayashi Ichiro in a second-hand bookstore in Kyoto in 1988. I studied it with all my heart. He explained the book as one of the old traditional books. However, the explanations are like ones by a martial artist. I have never read such a good book as this. I keenly realized we should study and practice kendo and iaido aiming at GORIN NO SHO as our objective/goal. I often reread it even now. "

In short the Go Rin No Sho may be ambiguous and confusing, but it wasn't written for general consumption. It was written to students of Musashi who had already attained a high level.

Comparisons between Musashi and Tesshu will never come to anything.

Unfortunately pop culture picks up on some historical figures and twists their history to fit its own image of their personalities or exploits. All you can do is read about the history of each person from as many reliable sources as possible, and draw your own conclusions.

[Hisham]

To me Musashi seems a little of a kenjutsu hero to people who are new to the art. Again i suggest that you read the mentioned books to have a better grasp of what Musashi was about.

[R A Sosnowski]

In short the Go Rin No Sho may be ambiguous and confusing, but it wasn't written for general consumption. It was written to students of Musashi who had already attained a high level.

Comparisons between Musashi and Tesshu will never come to anything.

Unfortunately pop culture picks up on some historical figures and twists their history to fit its own image of their personalities or exploits. All you can do is read about the history of each person from as many reliable sources as possible, and draw your own conclusions.
Agreed.

I admire them both, but they were men of their respective eras, which means two entirely different contexts.

[Hai_hai's_mom]

How come Tom Cruise isn't on the list?

[Musha]

No.3 :p.............

[Paburo]

i do japanese calligraphy (and love sake too) so i found everything about this sensei really interesting.

have in mind though they lived on really different eras, you cant really go and compare them lightly.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Well, it seems that Musashi came to the conclusion that applying the knowledge he had gained through swordsmanship to other activities, especially the governing of the nation, was very important. However, the highest position he ever attained (afaik) was sword tutor to a couple of daimyo. Tesshu was an advisor of Tokugawa Yoshinobu (keiki) and the meiji emperor, so by Musashi's standards, surely Tesshu achieved more...

I tend to prefer Musha's questioning attitude. Whether he's wrong or right, at least he wants to find out for himself rather than just buying into what other people say.

[kimkatami]

He became enlightened through practicing his kendo and I think trained in a very pure way.




Yamaoka Tesshu Sensei did zazen to die the Great Death (got Enlightened).

Somewhere else in this thread someone said that Tesshu Sensei did a lot for popularising Kendo. He did not do a thing to popularise any of the Three Arts he was a master in.　
Tesshu Sensei himself said that if even one person is able to carry on the tradition of ancient masters he will be satisfied.
There might be a lot of swordart- practitioners who are being inspired by Yamaoka Tesshu`s example but none who practice the way he did, and that is the tradition of the ancient masters.

Musashi or Tesshu?
That match would never happen.

-Kibu

[KenShi_JoB]

Yamaoka Tesshu Sensei did zazen to die the Great Death (got Enlightened).

Somewhere else in this thread someone said that Tesshu Sensei did a lot for popularising Kendo. He did not do a thing to popularise any of the Three Arts he was a master in.　
Tesshu Sensei himself said that if even one person is able to carry on the tradition of ancient masters he will be satisfied.
There might be a lot of swordart- practitioners who are being inspired by Yamaoka Tesshu`s example but none who practice the way he did, and that is the tradition of the ancient masters.

Musashi or Tesshu?
That match would never happen.

-Kibu

His way of practicing kendo is too severe for normal people. *Seigan tachigiri geiko* Sway to died trying fighting 200 opponent a day for a week. Their still some practitioner of his school left. 15 person I think.

[Optomitrist]

So what is menkyo-kaîden?

What did he do for seven days?

I'm so confused.

[KenShi_JoB]

From http://usagikendo.blogspot.com

In order to illustrate what seïgan-tachigirigéïko really was, we present here the testimony written by a kendoka aspiring to achieve the menkyo-kaîden title. One thousand, four hundred combats during seven days. This artcle was obtained and translated, with the authorization by the author, Kenji Tokitsu sensei, at http://www.tokitsu.com (http://www.tokitsu.com/).

An example of “tachigiri”
“On the first day of April, at six o’clock in the morning, my test began… my adversaries, about ten, followed one after the other, each one fighting until he was exhausted. When one was tired, another one would take his place and they’d change their positions like a wheel spinning constantly. I was in very good shape that day and so I even did some “kumiuchi” (close conbat) with violence. I put on my men first thing in the morning and I only took it off in the end. Everytime the cords got loose, the others imediately tied it firmly, so that I could not rest. I only rested a few moments after the twelve o’clock meal. Once I finished the two hundred combats, round about half past five in the afternoon, I said to myself I could repeat that experience for seven days. But fighting for eleven hours, during a whole long spring day is a hard thing to do.
Among the disciples, an older one called Murakami Masatada, observed every fight. He came to my place, while I rested, and told me that the quality of of the combats hadn’t been good enough. “The master is not satisfied. You must do much better, tomorrow.” I promised him I would fight much bravely on the next day. I later knew that he said the same thing to all my adversaries. The second day also started at six in the morning. Like I promised Murakami Masatada the day before, I tried to smash all my opponents the most bravely I could, using strikes but also throwing them. But each one of the ten will return well rested, one after the other. I could only depend upon my shinai. The sweat kept flowing without me being able to clean it and I started to feel thirsty. Lunch time came and I was glad to rest a little. But I couldn’t eat, so I just swallowed two or three eggs.
After the break I restarted the combats, but I felt a deep fatigue and wasn’t capable of moving like I did in the morning. I didn’t succumb and managed to to finish all my fights by the end of the day. While in the dressing room I couldn’t bend my knees. I went home trying to deal with the pain. I went to bed without concerns about my health, since it was my life I was investing in this process. I just tried to figured out how I was going to face things in next day. On the third day I entered the dojo encouraging myself. My adversaries looked like they were waiting for me for a long time. While changing, I realized they were mumbling about my pain and suffering. But (after that) they followed, one after the other, violently against me, without bothering about how I was, encouraging each others by shouting loudly. They tried to descourage me not only by using
“taîatari” (pushing), but also kumiuchi techniques.
The pain and the suffering were hard to describe, but I told myself, once I had invested all my life in this, I would not give up, even if it killed me. That day, other than the ten disciples, the ancient students were also my adversaries. And each one of them made five combats against me. By mid-day one eats our meal. I was happy to rest only, because I didn’t manage to eat anything. After that, the fights restarted. I was so tired that, at times, my conscience floated. Having lost my valiancy, I did the rest of the fights just defending myself.
My vision was blured and I almost lost conscience. I though: “This is the place of my death.” By then, it was time to face a student known to be aggressive and mean. A great fury took over me and I fought harder, while telling myself: “Come on, I won’t finish here without smashing your head.” In such state of mind, I even forgot the pain, I just wanted to destroy my adversary. When I was about to crack is head wide open, while my shinai was already lifted and my body completely forgotten, the master shouted, with a strong voice, ordering me to stop. I was deeply distressed by that fight, and didn´t understand why he made me to stop.
I obeyed his order, but it was now after five o’clock and I hadn’t finished the two hundred fights of the day. I wanted to keep on fighting. The master ordered my to stop, so I followed his order. As soon as I stopped, my spirit relaxed itself, I felt an enourmous pain all over my body and there was nothing I could do about it. After a short rest, I managed to get home with great effort. But it wasn’t like the day before. Only with my wife’s help was I able to lie down in my bed. I didn’t sleep one second during the night. The morning of the fourth day I wasn’t capable of one single gesture and only got up thanks to my wife’s help. It was impossible to eat my breakfast. My only thoughs were about the combats that day. It was raining, that morning. As I couldn’t hold an umbrella I just put a cloth over my head and I arrived at the dojo with my legs shaking. The master was already waiting for me and he asked: “How are you?” I answered calmly, while trying to hide the pain that was going through my entire body: “I want to go on.” Than, the master said: “You’ll stop.” I couldn’t do anything else than obeying him.
Tesshu was convinced that Kagawa would die if he’d let him continue.

[KenShi_JoB]

The Seïgan-tachigiri-géiko of the Shunpukan
The whole of the adepts, from all over Japan, constituted a global conscience of the levels of the (art of the) sword that, at the same time, was a part of the general conscience of budo, altough the word was not used at the time yet. Between the disciples of Yamaoka Tesshu (1836-1888), those who went far in the Way, were the ones who did “Seïgan-tachigirigéïko”. The word “seigan” meant the disciple had to swear that he would conduct his training to the point of, if necessary, dying for it. In Tesshu’s dojo, the Shumpukan, there were three different stages of seigan. In the first one, after the disciple made his solemn promise, Tesshu would instruct him about the state of mind needed to accomplish the task. Then his name was affixed on a white wood plate at the dojo and he should persevere in his training for three years, without failling one single training day. To conclude, he should undergo “tachigiri-géïko”. Alone and without a rest, he would do two hundred combats in a row. After that, he would then became first degree disciple.
After that first degree of seigan, if the disciple kept on training with determination for a few more years, he could then try to achieve the second degree. To do it, he needed to do two hundred combats a day, in three consecutive days, a total of six hundred combats. By accomplishing it, he would be rewarded with the disciple of second degree title.
Then, after a few more years of intensive training and various experiences, the disciple could apply for his third degree of seigan. In that case he should be able to fight two hundred fights a day, during seven days in a row (!). Those who succeeded received the “menkyo-kaîden” title, meaning they were the depositaries of the school’s wisdom and also masters authorized to transmite it.

[Optomitrist]

Woah thats awsome!


So Tesshu tortured people. Did Tesshu ever do that 1400 fights thing?

[Zaphiel]

as i've no idea who tesshu might be i go for musashi!!

[gsx1100s]

Thanks you for the link and the brief history of Yamaoka Tesshu Sensei, he sounded like an outstanding person. I never even new of his existance before this thread.With that knowledge I'd happily put my money on him , as opposed to Musashi who has been (unfortunately) almost deified amongst martial artists.



cheers michael

[Hisham]

as opposed to Musashi who has been (unfortunately) almost deified amongst martial artists.
cheers michael

Deified he might be but not by true martial artists who still benefit from his influence.
Anyway i still think that this Musashi vs Tesshu thing is wrong.

[gsx1100s]

Deified he might be but not by true martial artists who still benefit from his influence.
Anyway i still think that this Musashi vs Tesshu thing is wrong.

A point well made on "true martial artists" , although I am not a fan of Musashi , his writing has obviously helped yourself and others. On the Vs point , it is as obscure as the Samurai Vs Knight thread , all very interesting to see peoples views whatever the reality .

cheers Michael

[Hisham]

A point well made on "true martial artists" , although I am not a fan of Musashi , his writing has obviously helped yourself and others.

cheers Michael

His writtings do help with the practice as far as mind attitude and fighting strategy are concerned, IMHO his book is a reference to read and reread and i say this from a pragmatic standpoint.

[Pokie]

i go with musashi, because he really has a practical approach and we can use it too. actually i improved a lot after reading his go rin sho, it's like a kendo bible to me. it never failed me once, or ever contradicted what sensei's teach, but only reinforced it and showed new angles aswell. Maybe the footwork..but then who would do kendo footwork wearing sandals on rocky and uneven ground ?

[kimkatami]

His way of practicing kendo is too severe for normal people. *Seigan tachigiri geiko* Sway to died trying fighting 200 opponent a day for a week. Their still some practitioner of his school left. 15 person I think.

And that is exactly why they are called masters (and not normal people).
It is about going beyond your limits. To die.

As far as I know the practice of Itto Shoden Muto Ryu is not the same as in Tesshu Senseis days. They don`t even do seigan anymore.

[KenShi_JoB]

And that is exactly why they are called masters (and not normal people).
It is about going beyond your limits. To die.

As far as I know the practice of Itto Shoden Muto Ryu is not the same as in Tesshu Senseis days. They don`t even do seigan anymore.

Do you know how they train in these days?

[aiuchi]

Who's better, Tesshu or Musashi? To me it's a bit like asking 'who's better, Manjusri or Fudo Myoo?' - both carry swords, can you compare them?

[kimkatami]

[QUOTE=kimkatami
As far as I know the practice of Itto Shoden Muto Ryu is not the same as in Tesshu Senseis days. They don`t even do seigan anymore.[/QUOTE]

Incorrect.

In Itto Shoden Muto Ryu they still do practice Seigan, that is Tachi- giri- keiko.
If one wishes to practice in the way like Tesshu Sensei taught it can be done.

Otherwise usual keiko includes practicing kata and shinai keiko.

-Kibu

[Kaijin]

I suppose Tesshu was more significant to the progression of modern Kendo and Iaido. However without genius swords men the likes of Musashi, Munenori, and Takuan the way of the sword might never have survived the long peace of Tokugawa, there writings kept the way alive.

Incidently lets not try to rationalise zen. Can you really read a man's writings or life story and judge the depths of his satori? As to wether their satori was a result of meditation or the sword? What a foolish question!

They never grasped the tsuka
Nor did they alite upon the zafu,
Still ichinen was quieted.

munen cannot be second guessed.

[The great I AM]

munen cannot be second guessed.Neither can the motivation of someone who gravedigs 3 year old threads.

[Kenzan]

I suppose Tesshu was more significant to the progression of modern Kendo and Iaido. However without genius swords men the likes of Musashi, Munenori, and Takuan the way of the sword might never have survived .......


This thread was last posted to during the times of all three.

[ScottUK]

Can you really read a man's writings or life story and judge the depths of his satori?I judge people by the quality of their wheels, crib and ho'...

[Kagerou]

I judge people by the quality of their wheels, crib and ho'...

A man of class...all low :laugh:

[turboyoshi]

Can you really read a man's writings or life story and judge the depths of his satori?

You'd be surprised how much we can tell from yours.

sean

[Paikea]

I judge people by the quality of their wheels, crib and ho'...I give you...the next UK Bucho. :smoker:

[Fonsz]

I give you...the next UK Bucho. :smoker:
Allrighty then what set of wheels does he have? Which stately mansion does he call home and who is his old lady? I think we have to make properly educated guesses here don't you think? :confused:

[Paikea]

Allrighty then what set of wheels does he have? Which stately mansion does he call home and who is his old lady? I think we have to make properly educated guesses here don't you think? :confused:Ah, this is too fun...(warning, put the coffee down now)

Scott drives this (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Fiat_Panda_1st_series_pink_vl.jpg), his home is here (http://bp2.blogger.com/_bEIgx3b915E/Rr9Dqj5frwI/AAAAAAAAABE/yk59xTcXpEQ/s320/caravan.jpg), and his old lady is here. (http://www.all4humor.com/images/files/Bike%20Fattie.jpg)

Off to hell, I go, ...

[ScottUK]

Fortunately karma will deal with you, you hatchet-faced obscenity.

[rottunpunk]

hehe, apart from the missus its all true, ive seen it
(still trying to discover whats wrong with mrs scottuk to have married him) :D
:p

[Peter West]

hehe, apart from the missus its all true, ive seen it
(still trying to discover whats wrong with mrs scottuk to have married him) :D
:p

You beat me too it (the first statement that is, we all already were secretly thinking the second anyway.)

I like the way the graffiti on the caravan matches the same subtle shade of pink as the "car". Pure class.

[Peter West]

As to the original post and poll, all I can come up with as a kind of answer is: What a stupid irrelevant question. That should have been an option in the poll:: Stupid irrelevant question.

[ScottUK]

Ven I am Britischer Kendo Verbindungs-Gruppenführer I vill haf you all shot in grade order. I vill save you until last, Herr Vest.

[Peter West]

Ven I am Britischer Kendo Verbindungs-Gruppenführer I vill haf you all shot in grade order. I vill save you until last, Herr Vest.

Your Japanese accent isn't too good.

[Trent]

I do not think that there is any comparison to be made. They are different people and from different times. I think that Tesshu isnt from around the same time as Musashi (Musashi died 200 years before Tesshu was born).

Both founded a school of Kenjutsu, and both were renowned samurai - that is enough for me to say that they are equal.

[rottunpunk]

so you really mean musashi is better because he was the original
anybody else is just a copycat fake :D
:p

[rottunpunk]

Your Japanese accent isn't too good.

thats because he is a pseudo-brummie
everyone knows that geordie japanese is the best :D
:p