(Nito) Visiting Musashi-Kai [Archive]

kanyil

27-02-2005, 08:35 PM

Hey nito-kas. If you guys ever visit the Tokyo area you should really think about paying the Musashi-kai guys a visit (do contact them before hand though).

They are the nicest people and they are all absolutely passionate about practising and promoting nito, very remarkable since I have been told that there is a very strong resistance to nito in Japan. Sasaki sensei (the leader for Musashi-Kai Tokyo) is the author of the Musashi-no-ken nito-ryu book (a KENDO book, not koryu). A very learned man that is strong on the shiai-jo and in nito theory. Unfortunately I did not get to see Nakamura sensei but there's always next time.

I just finished two days with the Musashi-Kai guys. The first day's keiko-kai began at 1:00pm with iaido, Musashi-kai kata (due to the lack of time I was quickly taught 1 to 9 so that I could practice from the book) and then kendo. The "second dojo" began after keiko is finished around 5:30 and lasted until almost midnight. I had to catch the last train back to the hotel which is always fun (I quickly excused myself and stormed into the subway station when I heard that it might cost over 10,000 yen to go from Nihon-bashi to Shinjuku!). Staying for the last train is certainly something I would never have experienced as a regular tourist.

During the second dojo I was invited to go with them to another keiko-kai at 10:00 am on the next day. I almost had second thoughts about the lack of sleep and sight-seeing, but figured "why not". The effort was well worth it. This keiko (not musashi-kai's own training) was attended by 3 hachidan senseis, one of which was Toda sensei! Everybody wanted a piece of him, but he spent alot of time with us nito people and so I got able to keiko with him. It was an amazing experience, more so since he tried to teach me in English. He also stayed for almost half a hour after the keiko to talk to us, and teach us the finer points of nito (which went straight over my head due to the lack of Japanese skills - though I picked up some from body language and piecing together various Japanese kendo related terms).

I am aching all over and had seen very little of Tokyo other than the subways and inside the dojo, but very happy. Although I must say that Japanese language (or an interpreter) would be a big help (but as I had neither, the senseis would actually use some English, or use exaggerated body language to teach me). However, body language will definitely be not enough if you want to do well in the second dojo.

Off to Chiba-ken tomorrow!

kanyil

27-02-2005, 08:46 PM

Sorry for not asking you to come along Musha, but as a visitor myself I am probably in no position to bring others.

Everybody there trained hard and while nito kendokas are made very welcome, I think an itto kendoka going there just to "have a look" or to do only itto might run into some problems (but I'm not entirely sure, so don't take my word for it).

Musha

27-02-2005, 09:53 PM

Lol I was just going to ask you :D. You know I can do nito a little but I left my shoto in England and I'm not used to it any-way. I'll send you a PM with my E-mail that doesn't seem to work unless I E-mail you first :p. I'm just playing Gengo and wondering around most days so you can ask my to translate for you almost any time :P. Oh getting new bougu tomorrow I hope so need some one to wear it in for me :D.

Twobitmage

01-03-2005, 11:12 AM

I just thought of something.

Has anyone here ever seen two nito guys fight? is there a rule against it or is it just that rare?

Musha

01-03-2005, 11:53 AM

I've seen photos of it. Ask Kanyil if they did it when he was there :D.

kanyil

01-03-2005, 04:16 PM

The keiko-kai I went to had about 10 guys attending, and everyone was a nito kendoka so yeah, I saw quite a few nito vs. nito keikos. I also saw nito vs. chudan, nito vs. jodan, nito vs. migi-jodan bouts too.

People there would begin a bout with chudan vs. nito, and then switch sides or start a nito vs. nito bout about half way through, then rotate partners. It was great. Very interesting to see. The kata was also very interesting.

Alexandre

18-03-2005, 07:58 AM

Hi all,

Greeting from Chiba, Japan. :)

I am a junior Musashi-kai member since the end of 2005. This is my first post to Kendo World!

Personally, I did enjoyed very much to go through Kanyi's first visit to Musashi-kai from the beginning until the end of second dojo. He is such a sincere and serious Nito-ka who won my respect and hope to see him again soon and do some joint Keikos if I have chance to visit Taipei for the business or personal trip in the near future.

I started to learn Kendo 9 months ago and joined Musashi kai to learn Nito about 3 months ago. I enjoy Musashi-kai very much. There is no boring predudice/arguments about nito vs itto(chu-dan vs jo-dan) out there. We just do some keikos peacefully, including Nito vs Nito (Sho-nito/Gyaku-nito), or Nito vs. Itto (chu-dan/jo-dan/kasumi/heiseigan/katate jo-dan... you just name it)..

Also, I don't just practice my Nito skills but also Itto skills as well. I start to enjoy fighting Nito-ka with my Itto skill and apply all Nito/Itto skills back to fight Itto-ka with my Itto skill as well. (I am lucky to get Kendo Sho-dan 2 weeks ago with my Itto skill). For most of Musashi-kai members, Nito or Itto are the same. It's all about Kendo.

More interesting things is, especially in Musashi-kai Tokyo branch, Sasaki sensei, the author of "Musashi-No-Ken", Musashi kai text book, teaches Iai-do from the beginning of this year and plan to teach Jo-do soon. The purpose of learning Iai-do/Jo-do is to lean how to use Japanese sword properly and learn "tai-sabaki" and "mikiri" from jo-do and leverage these expertises back to Kendo.

Musashi-kai member's mission is not to become a strong Nito-ka to beat Ito-ka, but we evangelize Musashi Miyamoto's Niten Ichiryu style and promote Nitoryu to a reasonably respecable position in today's Kendo scene.

Anyway, no matter if you are a Itto-ka or Nito-ka, everyone is welcome to join Musashi-kai Keiko. (and it's for free for the first time).

Special thanks Kanyi for being a successsful reference to join from overseas with limited Japanese language skill. It just worked.

:evolved:

For more abut Musashi-kai, please do check out below cool Musashi Kai official website (Japanese only), epecially those cool sample movie files.

Musashi Kai Official website:
http://musashikai.jp/pc/

Some sample movie files, "Tenshin Nakamura sensei and some Musashi-kai senior members in Kendo tournament"
http://musashikai.jp/pc/06_dojo/index_13.html

Some sample movie files, "Muashi-No-Ken text book, In-Motion!"
http://musashikai.jp/pc/06_dojo/index_14.html

Some sample movie files, "How Musashi kai Keiko looks like"
http://musashikai.jp/pc/06_dojo/index_15.html

Copyright (C) 2004. Niten Ichiryu Musashi-kai All Rights Reserved
Copyright (C) 2004. 二天一流「武蔵会」 All Rights Reserved

* Please note no download, copy, any other use of the web contents except browsing are allowed without Musashi-kai's consent.

Kikuchiyo

18-03-2005, 08:21 AM

They are the nicest people and they are all absolutely passionate about practising and promoting nito, very remarkable since I have been told that there is a very strong resistance to nito in Japan.
Why is that?

Hyaku

18-03-2005, 08:24 AM

Hi all,

Greeting from Chiba, Japan. :)

I am a junior Musashi-kai member since the end of 2005. This is my first post to Kendo World!

Personally, I did enjoyed very much to go through Kanyi's first visit to Musashi-kai from the beginning until the end of second dojo. He is such a sincere and serious Nito-ka who won my respect and hope to see him again soon and do some joint Keikos if I have chance to visit Taipei for the business or personal trip in the near future.

I started to learn Kendo 9 months ago and joined Musashi kai to learn Nito about 3 months ago. I enjoy Musashi-kai very much. There is no boring predudice/arguments about nito vs itto(chu-dan vs jo-dan) out there. We just do some keikos peacefully, including Nito vs Nito (Sho-nito/Gyaku-nito), or Nito vs. Itto (chu-dan/jo-dan/kasumi/heiseigan/katate jo-dan... you just name it)..

Also, I don't just practice my Nito skills but also Itto skills as well. I start to enjoy fighting Nito-ka with my Itto skill and apply all Nito/Itto skills back to fight Itto-ka with my Itto skill as well. (I am lucky to get Kendo Sho-dan 2 weeks ago with my Itto skill). For most of Musashi-kai members, Nito or Itto are the same. It's all about Kendo.

More interesting things is, especially in Musashi-kai Tokyo branch, Sasaki sensei, the author of "Musashi-No-Ken", Musashi kai text book, teaches Iai-do from the beginning of this year and plan to teach Jo-do soon. The purpose of learning Iai-do/Jo-do is to lean how to use Japanese sword properly and learn "tai-sabaki" and "mikiri" from jo-do and leverage these expertises back to Kendo.

Musashi-kai member's mission is not to become a strong Nito-ka to beat Ito-ka, but we evangelize Musashi Miyamoto's Niten Ichiryu style and promote Nitoryu to a reasonably respecable position in today's Kendo scene.

Anyway, no matter if you are a Itto-ka or Nito-ka, everyone is welcome to join Musashi-kai Keiko. (and it's for free for the first time).

Special thanks Kanyi for being a successsful reference to join from overseas with limited Japanese language skill. It just worked.

:evolved:

For more abut Musashi-kai, please do check out below cool Musashi Kai official website (Japanese only), epecially those cool sample movie files.

Musashi Kai Official website:
http://musashikai.jp/pc/

Some sample movie files, "Tenshin Nakamura sensei and some Musashi-kai senior members in Kendo tournament"
http://musashikai.jp/pc/06_dojo/index_13.html

Some sample movie files, "Muashi-No-Ken text book, In-Motion!"
http://musashikai.jp/pc/06_dojo/index_14.html

Some sample movie files, "How Musashi kai Keiko looks like"
http://musashikai.jp/pc/06_dojo/index_15.html

Copyright (C) 2004. Niten Ichiryu Musashi-kai All Rights Reserved
Copyright (C) 2004. ????????? All Rights Reserved

* Please note no download, copy, any other use of the web contents except browsing are allowed without Musashi-kai's consent.

Hello Alexandre

First I should say that I am not posting in opposition to you. If I thought my level of Nito Seiho was good enough. I might even have a go myself someday.

But the copyright? How can you have all rights reserved to something that already has the intellectual copyright of the present Soke of The Hyoho Niten Ichiryu? Its not the ryu that's represented but a form of Nito Kendo. I would have said that this is a clear case of misrepresentation.

Hyaku

18-03-2005, 08:53 AM

Why is that?

Basicaly because there is a general feeling that lifetimes practice is not enough to learn to use one weapon let alone two.

Its contained in: Respect, Concern, Kindness, Etiquette, and Patience. Japanese Ken sunawachi Kokoro.

Its usual ettiquette and respect to meet ones opponent on an equal footing in the same kamae, same weapon. Big or small strong or weak both holding one weapon of the same size equals us up and ones real "self" shows through. Winning by alternate means is discouraged. We all try to do "honest" Kendo.

There is also a "very" strong dislike in the Japanese society of trying to be different rather than push strengths and talents into "the group". This is one mould than perhaps some people are not too keen on but will never break.
I see younger people that seem to be in absolute revolution but I would have said its just a phase in life that they are allowed to go through. Your yankees today eventually end up in the dark blue business suit and plod on with the rest and mummys stay at home to raise kids.

I'm sure that some of forumites might go into further detail. Its this understanding that makes Kendo what it is. Its a form of Sogo Budo Budo by the people for the people and a method of education in raising kids to be strong members of the "community".

Kikuchiyo

18-03-2005, 09:15 AM

Thank you.

JSchmidt

18-03-2005, 09:32 AM

I see younger people that seem to be in absolute revolution but I would have said its just a phase in life that they are allowed to go through. Your yankees today eventually end up in the dark blue business suit and plod on with the rest and mummys stay at home to raise kids.
Heh..having met several of these 'rebellious' young Japanese, they usual turn out to be far more conservative than you average serious to-dai student :)

Jakob

Alexandre

19-03-2005, 02:01 PM

Dear Hyaku-Sensei,

Hajimemashite.

m(_ _)m

Nice to meet you and I am very honored and grateful to receive your kinly reply and share your concern. :)

Since I am just a junior (i.e., semi) member of Musashi-kai, I have no position to represent Musahi-kai and/or comment around Nitenichiryu history and Musashi-kai's copyrights in this place.

I would appreciated if Hyaku-Sensei could directly communicate with Musashi-kai management team through e-mail form described in below URL.
http://musashikai.jp/pc/mail/index.html

Per my very limited understanding, Nitenichiryu Musash-Kai's origin is "Noda- ha(Murakami-ha)" and such "ryu-ha" has different origin from the other one, such as, "Santo-ha". I believe Muashi-Kai shall not comment and/or acknowledge anything about your group represents as "Soke" within "Santo-ha".

Yet, I have some concern about the statement, "It's not the ryu that's represented but a form of Nito Kendo." Such statement could possibly be regarded as an abuse or a defamation without a well-grounded argument based on reliable source. It could be misleading just like an irresponsible statement, for example, "Hyoho Nitenichiryu Kenjutsu is Japanese traditional dance but not Kenjutsu" which may be absolutely wrong.

In order for forum members to continue this thread in a peaceful and positive atomosphere, I would appreciate if none of us shall continue the dialogue around "ryuha" or "technique", any more.

Instead, I would appreciate if we could dialgoue more about some other topics, such as, "how great Muashi Miyamoto is and his Nitenichiryu techniques and philosophy" or things like that.

Anyway, thank you so much for your kind advices and comments and I feel very happy to have such a chance to meet and know you in here.

Yoroshiku Onegaishimasu! :smiley:

m(_ _)m

Hello Alexandre

First I should say that I am not posting in opposition to you. If I thought my level of Nito Seiho was good enough. I might even have a go myself someday.

But the copyright? How can you have all rights reserved to something that already has the intellectual copyright of the present Soke of The Hyoho Niten Ichiryu? Its not the ryu that's represented but a form of Nito Kendo. I would have said that this is a clear case of misrepresentation.

Hyaku

19-03-2005, 05:14 PM

Seems I have to answer in two posts
1:Dear Hyaku-Sensei,Nice to meet you and I am very honored and grateful to receive your kinly reply and share your concern.:)

Since I am just a junior (i.e., semi) member of Musashi-kai, I have no position to represent Musahi-kai and/or comment around Nitenichiryu history and Musashi-kai's copyrights in this place.

That is why I was concerned when you yourself quoted words like Copyright and All rights reserved. As you might notice the only thing I lay claim to in Copyright is my home page. It was not very wise of you to put these words on a forum in the first place if you have no authority.
Per my very limited understanding, Nitenichiryu Musash-Kai's origin is "Noda- ha(Murakami-ha)" and such "ryu-ha" has different origin from the other one, such as, "Santo-ha". I believe Muashi-Kai shall not comment and/or acknowledge anything about your group represents as "Soke" within "Santo-ha".Yes your knowledge does seem to be limited. There is actual documentation as to who's who and where that is handed down from Soke to Soke and kept in a safe place. That's why someone else is able to make certain claims not even knowing that these records exist. What we know ourselves is sufficient and we have no problem with acknowledgement. Its plain for all to see.

What I can say is that is of public knowledge: Certain objects that are Japanese designated cultural assets are handed down from the founder to concurrent Soke. These assets are only made available by written permission. You can add to this a handed down living tradition. Contrary to your belief we are a ryu, not a ryuha.

Hyaku

19-03-2005, 05:17 PM

Post 2
In order for forum members to continue this thread in a peaceful and positive atomosphere, I would appreciate if none of us shall continue the dialogue around "ryuha" or "technique", any more. Instead, I would appreciate if we could dialgoue more about some other topics, such as, "how great Muashi Miyamoto is and his Nitenichiryu techniques and philosophy" or things like that.

Yoroshiku Onegaishimasu! :smiley:
Again yes I would agree with you on this. But as might point out it's you that actually posted Copyright and All rights reserved to a Ryu and not a ryuha. Did I mention ryuha or technique. I would not wish to appear to be trying to police the net. My concern is based on protectionism of Soke and to abide by Musashi's philosophy and what he handed down. It's a democratic society and people are free too practice with whoever they wish to. At least this is our line on these matters and that's why we don't openly use a "Ryu" copyright. Our wish would be to bring people together rather that make seperatist statements of, "We are this and you are that." I would regard any further continuation on this subject to be bringing ego into the argument, instead of intellect and knowledge.

Hyakutake-Watkin - Niten Ichiryu - Menkyo

kru$$ti

26-03-2005, 07:28 AM

Hey-hey Hyaku-San!

...Its contained in: Respect, Concern, Kindness, Etiquette, and Patience. Japanese Ken sunawachi Kokoro...
...admirable sentiments indeed...
...You yankees today eventually end up in the dark blue business suit and plod on with the rest and mummies stay at home to raise kids...
...does this little tirade reflect the principles in your first quote...? I think it sounds a little pompous, patronising, impolite and indeed maybe a little racist (to say nothing of sexist)...

Your respectful, concerned, kind, polite and patient co-forumite...

kru$$ti

Kaoru

26-03-2005, 11:21 AM

Hey-hey Hyaku-San!

...admirable sentiments indeed...

...does this little tirade reflect the principles in your first quote...? I think it sounds a little pompous, patronising, impolite and indeed maybe a little racist (to say nothing of sexist)...

Your respectful, concerned, kind, polite and patient co-forumite...

kru$$ti

Hi Kru$$ti-san,

I don't think he was not being pompous, impolite, etc. or racist at all. :) Please read his post in its entirety again. He was making a point on Japanese youth I think, in the way they are raised. That's not racist, but an observation. From what I understand, the Japanese do encourage conforming to society and being different is not, like what he said. And, since he has lived in Japan for a long time, he will have seen this first hand, and so his observations are valid. Maybe he just means that more girls stay home and care for their children while the husband works there, than in other countries. That's not sexist but a fact, if that's what he means and I am pretty sure that's what he meant. He lives there. He'd know more about it than we would. I can't magine him saying something like that to be sexist.

I don't think it was a tirade, either. He was just expressing an opinion. :)

Oh, for the word "Yankee." In Japan, it's a gang member if the anime I saw that portrayed this, is right. This is going to sound really bad and cheesy,*wince* but anime can sometimes be very useful in learning about Japanese culture. Often, there are liner notes on the disk or in an insert inside the DVD cover that discuss the cultural aspects portrayed in an anime. In Fruits Basket, one of Tohru's friends was a Yankee until she met Tohru. A Yankee was explained as a gang. Her friend became an ex-Yankee after meeting Tohru and her mother. So, that's where I got that information.

*runs for cover* Where's my rock I usually hide under before someone gets mad at me for saying that's where I got that information??

I don't mean to say that anime is always the best source or only source for cultural information.

I did do a search on the web for more information, but I unfortunately came up with nothing. I looked using several different words/word combinations. Darn... I HATE it when I come up with nothing. :(

So, Hyaku-sensei, could you please confirm that this is what you meant? I am pretty certain I am correct in what a Yankee is there. I was reading subtitles and listening to the dialogue(I can understand some Japanese.), not the dub. The Japanese seiyu said Yankee, so it was not a translation at all.

So, he did not mean that as a racist statement at all. :)

I think he honestly meant nothing bad by his post. :)

Kaoru

Kaoru

26-03-2005, 12:25 PM

Dear Hyaku-Sensei,

Hajimemashite.

m(_ _)m

Nice to meet you and I am very honored and grateful to receive your kinly reply and share your concern. :)

Since I am just a junior (i.e., semi) member of Musashi-kai, I have no position to represent Musahi-kai and/or comment around Nitenichiryu history and Musashi-kai's copyrights in this place.

I would appreciated if Hyaku-Sensei could directly communicate with Musashi-kai management team through e-mail form described in below URL.
http://musashikai.jp/pc/mail/index.html

Per my very limited understanding, Nitenichiryu Musash-Kai's origin is "Noda- ha(Murakami-ha)" and such "ryu-ha" has different origin from the other one, such as, "Santo-ha". I believe Muashi-Kai shall not comment and/or acknowledge anything about your group represents as "Soke" within "Santo-ha".

Yet, I have some concern about the statement, "It's not the ryu that's represented but a form of Nito Kendo." Such statement could possibly be regarded as an abuse or a defamation without a well-grounded argument based on reliable source. It could be misleading just like an irresponsible statement, for example, "Hyoho Nitenichiryu Kenjutsu is Japanese traditional dance but not Kenjutsu" which may be absolutely wrong.

In order for forum members to continue this thread in a peaceful and positive atomosphere, I would appreciate if none of us shall continue the dialogue around "ryuha" or "technique", any more.

Instead, I would appreciate if we could dialgoue more about some other topics, such as, "how great Muashi Miyamoto is and his Nitenichiryu techniques and philosophy" or things like that.

Anyway, thank you so much for your kind advices and comments and I feel very happy to have such a chance to meet and know you in here.

Yoroshiku Onegaishimasu! :smiley:

m(_ _)m

Hi Alexandre-san,

I think this was quite unecessary to say and, a bit impolite if I may say.

It is also not up to you what people discuss. No-one is saying anything rude, so therefore, whatever they want to talk about is fine. Ryuha simply means "school." Ryu means "style." No big deal. Just leave it.

What Hyaku-sensei said is not abuse or defamatory in any way. Your statement was a poor corollary. HNIR isn't Japanese traditional dance at all.

Oh, and speaking of a reliable source, Hyaku-sensei is just about as reliable as you can get seeing as he was recently awarded Menkyo by the current HNIR soke for starters.

So, let's not go looking for an argument. I think the discussion should really be dropped if stuff like this is going to be said.

Kaoru

Hokushin

26-03-2005, 03:30 PM

Hi Alexandre-san,

So, let's not go looking for an argument. I think the discussion should really be dropped if stuff like this is going to be said.

Kaoru

Hi Kaoru san

I agree with you. yes this discussion is over.. Alexandre-san and I have not right to be involved in the discussion. What we have to do now is to practice Nito.

bye.

mingshi

27-03-2005, 01:53 AM

Ryuha simply means "school." Ryu means "style." No big deal. Just leave it.
FYI "ryuha" is derived from the words "current" and "stream", as in "stream of a river" or something similar. Ryuha should be more accurately described as a certain branch of a school (in the case of kobudo). The difference between x-ha and y-ha within the same ryu can be small or big. Say, you know how it goes for the various Itto Ryu. So it is quite interesting to know where Niten Ichi Ryu is going too (for me at least).

Kaoru

27-03-2005, 11:46 AM

FYI "ryuha" is derived from the words "current" and "stream", as in "stream of a river" or something similar. Ryuha should be more accurately described as a certain branch of a school (in the case of kobudo). The difference between x-ha and y-ha within the same ryu can be small or big. Say, you know how it goes for the various Itto Ryu. So it is quite interesting to know where Niten Ichi Ryu is going too (for me at least).

Hi Mingshi-san,

Thank you for the extra information on those terms! *storing that away* :) I remember reading that on Koryu.com, but haven't thought about that for a while. Thank you. Yeah... Agreed. Where else can HNIR go? What do you mean?

Oh, I love your new avatar. It's pretty! I like it better than all the rest you have had.

Kaoru

Hyaku

27-03-2005, 09:08 PM

Alexandre

29-03-2005, 05:15 AM

Hi Kaoru san

I agree with you. yes this discussion is over.. Alexandre-san and I have not right to be involved in the discussion. What we have to do now is to practice Nito.

bye.

I totally agree with Hokushin san.

Alexandre

kru$$ti

15-04-2005, 09:21 PM

Hey-hey!

Kendo Snobs 1 - Open Discussion 0

What a surprise... (NOT!!!)

Musha

15-04-2005, 11:11 PM

Haven't you learned yet kru$$ti that on this forum you can say any think you like if its the same view as every one else :D.

KenShi_JoB

16-04-2005, 02:40 AM

Its usual ettiquette and respect to meet ones opponent on an equal footing in the same kamae, same weapon. Big or small strong or weak both holding one weapon of the same size equals us up and ones real "self" shows through. Winning by alternate means is discouraged. We all try to do "honest" Kendo.

So jodan, nito are dishonest kendo? I can't say I agree with that. I think many 9 dan and 10 dan do jodan sometime. I don't think they play dishonest kendo.

Kaoru

16-04-2005, 03:45 AM

Logged on from philippines.

Yes yankee or ianki refers to young rebellious Japanese people who are outward in dress and Bleached/ blonde brown hair. Its just a word coined by Japanese to describe them. No racism intended. Sorry about that.

I forgot about this thread until just now, since it just popped up again. Thank you Hyaku-sensei for confirming that. :)

Kaoru

Kaoru

16-04-2005, 04:08 AM

Hey-hey!

Kendo Snobs 1 - Open Discussion 0

What a surprise... (NOT!!!)

Kendo snobs? I don't think so. I was trying to avoid an argument over something that tends to cause arguments so I put a stop to it. If someone wants to discuss Nito, Jodan, and stuff like that, fine. But, the discussion on HNIR is closed. Call it snobbish if you will, that everyone involved agreed to end the discussion, but it's better than an argument, IMHO.

Musha-san, it has nothing to do with having the same view as the rest. It has to do with keeping things from becoming an argument. Surely you see that? :)

Sorry.

Kaoru

JSchmidt

16-04-2005, 06:13 AM

So jodan, nito are dishonest kendo? I can't say I agree with that. I think many 9 dan and 10 dan do jodan sometime. I don't think they play dishonest kendo.

Heh..please name a 10th dan doing jodan...or even a 9th dan for that matter!!

Further, when I fight against someone new (or a senior), I always start in chudan. Once I decide to change, I first bow and apologize regardless of rank, age, etc, before changing to jodan.

Jakob

Andoru

16-04-2005, 08:37 AM

I saw a hachidan doing nito in the 8th dan tournament...he came second too! Can't remember which year though.

Lloromannic

16-04-2005, 10:27 AM

Kiyoshi Nakakura died some 5 years ago but he was a 9th Dan who used Jodan.

Hyaku

16-04-2005, 03:58 PM

So jodan, nito are dishonest kendo? I can't say I agree with that. I think many 9 dan and 10 dan do jodan sometime. I don't think they play dishonest kendo.

Makes no difference to me. I am just quoting what ZNKR seniors say. Are you Kyudan/Judan. I would guess they have sufficient Chudan experience to want to try something different.

Some teachers would encourage it. Most have the opinion that if you cant even do good Chudan why try something else.

KenShi_JoB

16-04-2005, 04:32 PM

Heh..please name a 10th dan doing jodan...or even a 9th dan for that matter!!

Further, when I fight against someone new (or a senior), I always start in chudan. Once I decide to change, I first bow and apologize regardless of rank, age, etc, before changing to jodan.

Jakob

Nakakura Kiyoshi used jodan because of leg injury, so he has trouble with chudan. In his early day, he used to change kamae up to the situation.

There are a few video clips&pictures that show some of them(9,10dan) using jodan, but they are not pure jodan. I think they use jodan-waza as a part of their kendo, and use it more on their younger day than late in life.

Jodan may be an arrogant kamae but it's not a dishonest kamae IMHO.

KenShi_JoB

16-04-2005, 04:47 PM

Makes no difference to me. I am just quoting what ZNKR seniors say. Are you Kyudan/Judan. I would guess they have sufficient Chudan experience to want to try something different.

Some teachers would encourage it. Most have the opinion that if you cant even do good Chudan why try something else.

No, I'm no Judan or even Kyudan, and totally agree with the above quote about having sufficient chudan experience before go jodan.

But for the reason that we have to use same kamae to do a honest kendo, I heard that before. "Using jodan it is not possible for people of differing sex and age to enjoy kendo that facilitates the reading and correcting of one anothers hearts and is played from the heart. In order to enjoy kendo most effectively it is better to practice correct chudan kendo."

Well, I think this reason is far too extreme to the spiritual side of kendo, so in the end, we can just practice menuchi for that reason.

I did not intend to offend you Hyaku-sensei, I just want to express my opinion on this matter.

kru$$ti

25-04-2005, 06:08 AM

Hey-hey!

AAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggghhhh hhhhhh!!!!

Nnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

kru$$ti

mad_god

11-05-2005, 01:56 PM

Hello Alexandre

First I should say that I am not posting in opposition to you. If I thought my level of Nito Seiho was good enough. I might even have a go myself someday.

But the copyright? How can you have all rights reserved to something that already has the intellectual copyright of the present Soke of The Hyoho Niten Ichiryu? Its not the ryu that's represented but a form of Nito Kendo. I would have said that this is a clear case of misrepresentation.

Seems very obvious to me that the copyright is concerned about the contents of Musashi-kai's practice of Nito-ryu, and Musashi's Niten Ichi ryu, that is packed in books and movies.
Don't know why you want to make a trouble on this.
Besides, it's well famous Musashi didn't have any "good" student. Therefore it is very suspicious someone say they represent the ryuha of Musashi.
The most important thing, however, is the kindness and politness seems this Musashi-kai have to other people.

MAD GOD

splice

12-05-2005, 03:24 AM

Besides, it's well famous Musashi didn't have any "good" student. Therefore it is very suspicious someone say they represent the ryuha of Musashi.

Pray tell, what are your sources on this? There are many things that are "well known" that aren't remotely factually correct. There are a number of documents and texts from that time, and they have references to Musashi's disciples. The book of five rings was dedicated to Terao Magonojo, the hyoho sanjugo kanjo to his brother, Terao Kyumanosuke. You can read about it in Kenji Tokitsu's Musashi: His Life and Writings. There are a large number of references in there for you to peruse, too. So, apart from a blatant assertion, what supports your view that Musashi had no "good" students?

The most important thing, however, is the kindness and politness seems this Musashi-kai have to other people.

No. It is indeed an important thing, and an admirable one. However, if you are considering the preservation of a tradition, there are established ways of doing it. It doesn't matter how polite or kind the people are. An art might have one sole inheritor, a crotchety old fart that won't teach anyone and gets drunk all the time, but he would still be the only authorised teacher, and you wouldn't get to teach his art without his permission. That's just the way it is.

Hyaku

12-05-2005, 10:07 AM

Seems very obvious to me that the copyright is concerned about the contents of Musashi-kai's practice of Nito-ryu, and Musashi's Niten Ichi ryu, that is packed in books and movies.
Don't know why you want to make a trouble on this.
Besides, it's well famous Musashi didn't have any "good" student. Therefore it is very suspicious someone say they represent the ryuha of Musashi.
The most important thing, however, is the kindness and politness seems this Musashi-kai have to other people.

MAD GOD

Well Its not really a matter of making trouble. The 10th Soke has had a very relaxed attitude to this problem. Mainly it because people his age are not really into our new electronic world. His successor is somewhat different and last week mentioned the word bengoshi (solicitor/lawyer).

Its a case of do as you please. Just don't use our name and most of all dont use it to cash in on. We ourselves have not intentions of publishing any book or putting out videos. Its a "Ryu" not a company.

To reiterate what Splice wrote. I dont know where you got the information from about Musashi not having any good students. The Hyoho Niten Ichiryu is a living tradition handed down throught the generations and is clearly acclaimed and recognized by Japan's senior Budo organizations To say this you might as well say "all" Budo is rubbish. It's that sort of comment we wish to avoid by having the copyright to disseminate valid information. Then again copyright we can control, trolls we cant!

To be honest you are damn lucky to have such an internet presence. We could just as well take it all down, go back to our tight secretive ryu and let everyone just wonder.

Kaoru

12-05-2005, 11:31 AM

mad_god

12-05-2005, 12:10 PM

Pray tell, what are your sources on this? There are many things that are "well known" that aren't remotely factually correct. There are a number of documents and texts from that time, and they have references to Musashi's disciples. The book of five rings was dedicated to Terao Magonojo, the hyoho sanjugo kanjo to his brother, Terao Kyumanosuke. You can read about it in Kenji Tokitsu's Musashi: His Life and Writings. There are a large number of references in there for you to peruse, too. So, apart from a blatant assertion, what supports your view that Musashi had no "good" students?

No. It is indeed an important thing, and an admirable one. However, if you are considering the preservation of a tradition, there are established ways of doing it. It doesn't matter how polite or kind the people are. An art might have one sole inheritor, a crotchety old fart that won't teach anyone and gets drunk all the time, but he would still be the only authorised teacher, and you wouldn't get to teach his art without his permission. That's just the way it is.

That's good you have read books about Musashi.
So, you know his famous book, The Five Ring's book also contents, Musashi philosophy basically don't enter in details about "technique" to be used in a real fight.
Instead, "Strategy" is the one he really seemed to care.
It's well known that he fought and successfully won several battles and duels, but again, it's mentioned he won "strategically", and seems he also admit it.
Not mentioning his prodigious spiritual power and physical condition that made possible handle two swords and a big oar againt the enemies or fight dozens of enemies at the same time, that normal people could not follow.
He have not taught in any school just because HE was very very strong, besides, it's well known he didn't teach his technique in "details" to anyone, as most the time he was living alone spending his time in a carve or doing artistic workshops (painting, writing, carvings, etc).
That's true that he made some documents about some "techniques" to try to make some people understand his point. But give a book to 10 people, reading it can make people interprete it in 10 different ways. Especially because his "pupils", different of other schools, had a short time living and learning directly from him.
If you say these people had "got" the real essence of his RYU, I really will rethink about many masters say that is necessary a whole life to understand their original teachers' axioms.
If you practice a martial art for a long time you'll know what I mean.

About the good student stuff.
I don't know what you mean by "good" student, but if none of them were capable to duel or fight "according" the "techinques" and "strategies" taught by Musashi against a remarkable opponent, like Musashi really did, I would have some concerns to think about the one's capability of assimilation of Musahshi's "ART".
Surely I believe many of them assimilated a strong and useful technique along the time, and nowadays some would be very skillful, but it doesn't mean it's "exactly" what Musashi had really taught.
If you practice some fighting style martial art you will understand what I mean.
You can be very strong, but it doens't mean you're following "exactly" what your master did or taught.

About authorized teacher, I don't have concerns about it, but seems to me the school also had some ramifications along the history.
Besides, probably both of them had already make some changes from the original teachings.
That's very common when we have different groups practicing in different locations for long time, and we have some Ryuhas as example.
Unfortunatelly the "preservation" you point out is disappearing little by little along the time... only the "name" is the same (but is it really meaninful? I really have doubts about it).

Anyway, I really hope you enjoy your practice, no matter what it is.
Peace.

MAD GOD

mad_god

12-05-2005, 12:21 PM

Well Its not really a matter of making trouble. The 10th Soke has had a very relaxed attitude to this problem. Mainly it because people his age are not really into our new electronic world. His successor is somewhat different and last week mentioned the word bengoshi (solicitor/lawyer).

Its a case of do as you please. Just don't use our name and most of all dont use it to cash in on. We ourselves have not intentions of publishing any book or putting out videos. Its a "Ryu" not a company.

To reiterate what Splice wrote. I dont know where you got the information from about Musashi not having any good students. The Hyoho Niten Ichiryu is a living tradition handed down throught the generations and is clearly acclaimed and recognized by Japan's senior Budo organizations To say this you might as well say "all" Budo is rubbish. It's that sort of comment we wish to avoid by having the copyright to disseminate valid information. Then again copyright we can control, trolls we cant!

To be honest you are damn lucky to have such an internet presence. We could just as well take it all down, go back to our tight secretive ryu and let everyone just wonder.

The 10th Soke should be a great man.
About the students' stuff, I already made some comments.
It's a question of common sense, or beliefs, that I don't want to argue as it's everyone's personal matter and discuss it is not adequate as can hurt people's feelings.
I read the Niten Ichi-kai book, and seems they have ramification along their history. I don't consider wrong they use the name, even if it's not part of the another group or have different methods or point of views.
As posted above, such contents tends to change along the time anyway....
The most important again, is that everybody can enjoy the practice and have a good use of the teachings in their personal (or budo) life's.
Peace.

MAD GOD

mad_god

12-05-2005, 12:34 PM

Hyaku

12-05-2005, 01:37 PM

The 10th Soke should be a great man.
About the students' stuff, I already made some comments.
It's a question of common sense, or beliefs, that I don't want to argue as it's everyone's personal matter and discuss it is not adequate as can hurt people's feelings.
I read the Niten Ichi-kai book, and seems they have ramification along their history. I don't consider wrong they use the name, even if it's not part of the another group or have different methods or point of views.
As posted above, such contents tends to change along the time anyway....
The most important again, is that everybody can enjoy the practice and have a good use of the teachings in their personal (or budo) life's.
Peace.

MAD GOD

We do know the way Musashi practiced towards the end of his life. We have more than enough documentation and practice handed down through the years to clearly ascertain this. Actually it was a very natural method that refected his age. What alters is each Soke's individual interpretation based on adding his own character to fundamental techniques.

The ryu is as such that one can do just one technique for around eight years before moving on and get to do Nito seiho years after. I see few Kendo people doing ten to twenty years Chudan before they use two shinai.

Splice has read Gorin no Sho, most likely in Japanese as he has a good knowledge of it.

But if you have read it and understood to a small degree you will know that Musashi's philosophy is not that of the principles laid down for Kendo. To clearly differentiate Kendo was not invented then, Musashi had never seen a shinai. Soke is also a Kendo teacher but never ever mixes the two. Do you think for one minute its possible? Should we wait for people to come forward and tsuki them under the men? Simulate cutting people hands off under the wrist?. Grab them from the side and slash their throats with a kodachi?

If NIR did have a connection with kendo? If I remember (have it filed somewhere) the first and foremost rule for members of the Nihon Budo Renmei goes against making money. As you say countless movies, books cakes, noodles etc all cashing in on the Musashi name. But claims to be linked to the ryu to sell stuff is somewhat different.

It's not really my decision anyway. I just keep Soke informed of what is going on, who publishes what and where in English be it books or CD's.

I suggest you talk to a few Kendo hachidan/kyudan if you meet them. They do not have much time for this sort of thing. That's "why" they are hachidan/kyudan. It is also because of what they have taught me my feelings are negative, not just in defense of what we do in Kenjutsu.

Maybe its time I picked up a couple of shinai and went to do my interpretation of Niten Ichiryu. Best get some insurance or call an ambulance. Musashi's real technique is "not" nice.

mad_god

12-05-2005, 02:35 PM

We do know the way Musashi practiced towards the end of his life. We have more than enough documentation and practice handed down through the years to clearly ascertain this. Actually it was a very natural method that refected his age. What alters is each Soke's individual interpretation based on adding his own character to fundamental techniques.

Many books mentions the opposite, that his life after the Ganryujima is a mistery. Besides, seems he gave up the sword after that and spent most of his time in another artistic worshops. It's interesting people have some well documented "practice method" of Musashi.
For the Soke's individual interpretation, yes I agree and that's what I mentioned in other posts.

The ryu is as such that one can do just one technique for around eight years before moving on and get to do Nito seiho years after. I see few Kendo people doing ten to twenty years Chudan before they use two shinai.

Kendo people just were not taught to use them, because some teachers consider it outlaw of Kendo spirit... but they accept to use them for shiai... strange world.
At least, means are they very democratic and accept others' point of view?
Musashi used the 2 swords because there were many opponents... and he was strong and capable enough to handle them.

But if you have read it and understood to a small degree you will know that Musashi's philosophy is not that of the principles laid down for Kendo. To clearly differentiate Kendo was not invented then, Musashi had never seen a shinai. Soke is also a Kendo teacher but never ever mixes the two. Do you think for one minute its possible? Should we wait for people to come forward and tsuki them under the men? Simulate cutting people hands off under the wrist?. Grab them from the side and slash their throats with a kodachi?

Cannot see your point.
Just because someone made it possible to "enjoy" a healthy practice in the same condition to other Kendo fighters, it makes him a fake fighter?
I admire the guy that brought the techniques and generalized (in a good meaning) the dangerous techniques and make it possible for anyone practice and practice amongst the other groups.
That's a nice thing!
Also doens't mean he will "forget" the old techniques passed and will not continue his tradition in Niten Ichi ryu.

If NIR did have a connection with kendo? If I remember (have it filed somewhere) the first and foremost rule for members of the Nihon Budo Renmei goes against making money. As you say countless movies, books cakes, noodles etc all cashing in on the Musashi name. But claims to be linked to the ryu to sell stuff is somewhat different.

The definition of "making money" is very subjective... like everything Japanese.
Obviously people are allowed to eat, drink, travel, have a house, have a car?
What else is "allowed" to show he is not "making money"?
Is a definition Sokes must live in poverty?
In another hand it's nice they have such concept when teach their arts.
But I don't think the guy of Musashi-kai is interested in making money.
Publishing a book explaining his "useful techinques for Kendo Nito-ryu" is a good way to guide people to have a nice practice in Kendo and spread the Nito-ryu style amongst the Kendo group.

I suggest you talk to a few Kendo hachidan/kyudan if you meet them. They do not have much time for this sort of thing. That's "why" they are hachidan/kyudan. It is also because of what they have taught me my feelings are negative, not just in defense of what we do in Kenjutsu.

Fortunatelly I met many 8 dan.
Kyudan are so difficult to find out nowadays...
They don't have a bad idea about Nitou, but they say ittou is a key to "understand" the deepest part of Kendo.
Well, everybody has different oppinions, different point of views and we should respect them.
But also Musashi, in his duels, most of the time used the Ittou, he also explains Nittou was used because there were many enemies and it was the suitable way to handle them, because he was capable to handle it.
Besides, someone told me what he really taught was that people should practice to "develop their capability to handle 2 swords", and the technique taught are a kind of "exercise" and "basic movements" to people apprimorate such skill, means body coordination and flexible mentality, basically.
Further, as I said in another thread, it's difficult to believe the entire Musashi technique was transmitted in few years and few practices and just in form of a book to his "good students".

Maybe its time I picked up a couple of shinai and went to do my interpretation of Niten Ichiryu. Best get some insurance or call an ambulance. Musashi's real technique is "not" nice.

Musashi "real" technique? Probably nobody are able to interprete it unless Musashi himself.
Anway, the idea of Ishuu jiai is very interesting also.
I have experienced "arageiko" and there are some dojos in Japan that still they practice in the "vale-tudo" match.
Kusarigama, naginata mixed with jojutsu techniques also are practiced in some places....
Hope you can give us some comments about your experience after join one of such practice, I am very curious to know the result.
Peace.

MAD GOD

Kaoru

12-05-2005, 04:28 PM

Many books mentions the opposite, that his life after the Ganryujima is a mistery. Besides, seems he gave up the sword after that and spent most of his time in another artistic worshops. It's interesting people have some well documented "practice method" of Musashi.
For the Soke's individual interpretation, yes I agree and that's what I mentioned in other posts.

Kendo people just were not taught to use them, because some teachers consider it outlaw of Kendo spirit... but they accept to use them for shiai... strange world.
At least, means are they very democratic and accept others' point of view?
Musashi used the 2 swords because there were many opponents... and he was strong and capable enough to handle them.

Cannot see your point.
Just because someone made it possible to "enjoy" a healthy practice in the same condition to other Kendo fighters, it makes him a fake fighter?
I admire the guy that brought the techniques and generalized (in a good meaning) the dangerous techniques and make it possible for anyone practice and practice amongst the other groups.
That's a nice thing!
Also doens't mean he will "forget" the old techniques passed and will not continue his tradition in Niten Ichi ryu.

The definition of "making money" is very subjective... like everything Japanese.
Obviously people are allowed to eat, drink, travel, have a house, have a car?
What else is "allowed" to show he is not "making money"?
Is a definition Sokes must live in poverty?
In another hand it's nice they have such concept when teach their arts.
But I don't think the guy of Musashi-kai is interested in making money.
Publishing a book explaining his "useful techinques for Kendo Nito-ryu" is a good way to guide people to have a nice practice in Kendo and spread the Nito-ryu style amongst the Kendo group.

Fortunatelly I met many 8 dan.
Kyudan are so difficult to find out nowadays...
They don't have a bad idea about Nitou, but they say ittou is a key to "understand" the deepest part of Kendo.
Well, everybody has different oppinions, different point of views and we should respect them.
But also Musashi, in his duels, most of the time used the Ittou, he also explains Nittou was used because there were many enemies and it was the suitable way to handle them, because he was capable to handle it.
Besides, someone told me what he really taught was that people should practice to "develop their capability to handle 2 swords", and the technique taught are a kind of "exercise" and "basic movements" to people apprimorate such skill, means body coordination and flexible mentality, basically.
Further, as I said in another thread, it's difficult to believe the entire Musashi technique was transmitted in few years and few practices and just in form of a book to his "good students".

Musashi "real" technique? Probably nobody are able to interprete it unless Musashi himself.
Anway, the idea of Ishuu jiai is very interesting also.
I have experienced "arageiko" and there are some dojos in Japan that still they practice in the "vale-tudo" match.
Kusarigama, naginata mixed with jojutsu techniques also are practiced in some places....
Hope you can give us some comments about your experience after join one of such practice, I am very curious to know the result.
Peace.

MAD GOD

I have been reading your replies to Hyaku-sensei with interest.

I think I see your whole problem. You seem to think Nito Ryu Kendo is Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu(HNIR or NIR) Kenjutsu.

They are not one and the same. They are both very different from each other.

Nito(Or, Nitou as you spelled it.) Ryu just means two sword style.

Niten means "Two Heavens." Ichi means "one" So basically, it means "Two Heavens as One" This is Musashi's Ryu. Nito Ryu Kendo isn't. See?

Musashi didn't create Nito Kendo. That came MUCH later.

You need to seperate the two.

Hyaku-sensei holds Menkyo in HNIR Kenjutsu and is a teacher as well as senior student of HNIR Kenjutsu, which is Musashi's Ryu. He also holds a 6 dan in Kendo.

So, he is talking about two different types of Nito waza. Nito Kendo, and then, the HNIR Nito sets.

You seem to be talking about just one.

The Musashi-Kai has nothing to do with HNIR as he knows it. They are not HNIR(Or called NIR. Some forget the Hyoho bit. Same thing.).

Well, now that you know that, I'll leave this for Hyaku-sensei to finish.

May I ask, do you practice any sword art? I got curious and looked on your profile and it says only "Martial Arts" What do you practice, if any?

Kaoru

kanyil

12-05-2005, 05:12 PM

My sincerest apologies for the direction this thread has taken since my initial post. It was definitely not my intention to begin a war relating to Niten-Ichi-Ryu.

My intention for starting this thread was to share with my fellow kendokas my own experience visiting, training with, and learning from Musashi-kai, and to encourage others who may be interested in nito to do the same. My aim was to bring to everyone's attention that an organized system of nito kendo exists, and welcomes visitors. No more, no less.

As a kendoka (and a beginner at that), I am unfit, and does not comment on any kenjutsu related matters. Also, the issues relating to the various lineages niten-ichi-ryu is not a matter of us who are outside of the ryuha's concern.

I humbly suggest that those of us who are not a stakeholder in the matter kindly step back, and allow the related parties to sort this out in their own way, in their own fashion, and in their own good time. The rest of us should go back to practising kendo.

mad_god

12-05-2005, 05:14 PM

I think I see your whole problem. You seem to think Nito Ryu Kendo is Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu(HNIR or NIR) Kenjutsu.

Thank for pointing out it, but I know what we are talking about.
The confusion about this shinai stuff cames out because the Musashi-kai's follower seems to be also a Soke of one of NittenIchiRyu ramification.
In my understanding they practice both NIR and Nittou ryu.
Unfortunatelly I know their work only by the book they published about Nittou ryu few years ago, which they mention the Soke is transmitting NittenIchiryu but also uses Nittouryu, adapting the Koryuu techniques to the nowadays' kendo style.

The Musashi-Kai has nothing to do with HNIR as he knows it. They are not HNIR(Or called NIR. Some forget the Hyoho bit. Same thing.). .

Unfortunatelly as I said, I only have read their explanation in the book.
And there was a ramification of how the NIR was ramificated.
If Mr. Hyaku is a sensei of one of the groups, fine. But if there is ramifications along the history of NIR, well, they must share the space and ideas of their colleagues and move on.

May I ask, do you practice any sword art? I got curious and looked on your profile and it says only "Martial Arts" What do you practice, if any? Kaoru

Yes, I practice sword and other kind of Martial Arts.
In fact, doens't matter what they are, or which rank I am.
I don't want to biased anyone's oppinion or point of view due to what I carry in my resume.
By it was nice talk with you.

MAD GOD

Hyaku

12-05-2005, 05:20 PM

But I don't think the guy of Musashi-kai is interested in making money. Publishing a book explaining his "useful techinques for Kendo Nito-ryu" is a good way to guide people to have a nice practice in Kendo and spread the Nito-ryu style amongst the Kendo group.
MAD GOD

I am all for any healthy pursuit that does not sustain injury. I would hardly call Kendo injury free. Apart from the general Kendo problems caused by being hit over the head and stomping around to squash ankle joints and knees for 40 years plus, I see no tenouchi whatsoever here with these people. More like uncontrolled flailing about with a shinai that is only stopped by the fact it hits someone. You don't fill in your profile but say you have met and talked to few Nanadan. So would assume you know what your talking about with Kendo. Can you honestly tell me this stuff is good?. Scroll back up the thread and look at the video links.

Recently I read a comment by someone who had practiced with a Canadian Nito Kendoka.... "Best keep a distance, this guy hurts"

Statements like this concern me as published on their website.

"Musashi Miyamoto developed the Two Sword Style to put the two swords into 100% use. Niten ichiryu "Musashi-Kai" has inherited Musashi's Two sword style, and practices it in kendo.

There are a few practical applications that have been handed down and clearly stated in our manual Gorin no Sho such as two sword timing as one.

Now I don't see that here.

http://musashikai.jp/pc/06_dojo/index_15.html

Why do they hold their arms up with a shinai like umbrellas in the wind. Is there some reason for protecting the area an extra body width to ones side?

I see no inheritance here. If you think otherwise that's fine by me. If you think you can contradict what I can see as a load of nonsense having nothing to do with Niten Ichiryu by stating that, perhaps what we do is in "name only", that a tradition is not preserved and is dissapearing that's up to you.

It's for us to know and you to surmise and suppose by reading your books.
I can assure you what we have as a tradition is far deeper that books and internet posts. For sure if we all thought like you it would not survive for long.

Why not call the Budokan and Kobudo Kyokai and tell them to give it all up as a load of nonsense? Call up Yagyu Soke and tell him he just carries the family name? Tell the same to Togo Soke (Jigen Ryu).

mad_god

12-05-2005, 05:25 PM

The confusion about this shinai stuff cames out because the Musashi-kai's follower seems to be also a Soke of one of NittenIchiRyu ramification.
In my understanding they practice both NIR and Nittou ryu.
Unfortunatelly I know their work only by the book they published about Nittou ryu few years ago, which they mention the Soke is transmitting NittenIchiryu but also uses Nittouryu, adapting the Koryuu techniques to the nowadays' kendo style.
MAD GOD

Sorry, maybe I made some mistake.
As I said, I read the Musashi-kai's book long time ago.
I remember that was a lineage of NIR and also ramifications.
But I am not sure if the Soke of Musashi-kai was also Soke of one of these ramifications or just a follower student of his previous Soke of NIR.
Very complicated stuff when you don't have the good memory about it.
I think someone that is practicing at Musashi-kai dojo can clarify it quickly.
By the way, I also hope to make a (friendly) visit to both Musashi-kai and NIR someday.
Peace.

MAD GOD

Hyaku

12-05-2005, 05:29 PM

Yes, I practice sword and other kind of Martial Arts.
In fact, doens't matter what they are, or which rank I am.
I don't want to biased anyone's oppinion or point of view due to what I carry in my resume.
By it was nice talk with you.

MAD GOD

Ah but it does matter. If you are going to troll a thread you need some substantial evidence and experience to back it up. No use hiding behind a keyboard. You are biased if you dont have anything to back up your supposition. Put up or shutup! For all I know you could be a 12 year old anime fan.

mad_god

12-05-2005, 05:39 PM

Ah but it does matter. If you are going to troll a thread you need some substantial evidence and experience to back it up. No use hiding behind a keyboard. You are biased if you dont have anything to back up your supposition. Put up or shutup! For all I know you could be a 12 year old anime fan.

If a 12 years old anime fan can make logical arguments to make you so upset, wonder what in fact people are learning at your dojo in NIR....
Probably it's not what your 10th Soke is trying to transmit...

As Kaori san said in another thread, seems you practice Kendo?
I wonder where we could have the chance to make an (friendly) koukenchiai stuff together....
By the way, I have not chance to watch the video of Musashi-kai because I am a poor man (it makes me a soke, as I don't teach anything for making money?), therefore I cannot give you detailed oppinions.
But according to the book they published, well, there are some interesting wazas, other that I don't think is really applicable... I would like to see them someday...
About the holding like an umbrella stuff, have you stopped to think maybe it's because it's an easy way to hold them even for someone not so physically strong and young enough like the warrior time's Musashi?
Peace anyway.... keep hard in your shugyou.

MAD GOD

mad_god

12-05-2005, 06:08 PM

Recently I read a comment by someone who had practiced with a Canadian Nito Kendoka.... "Best keep a distance, this guy hurts"

That's a bad thing.
People should know that practices must be in koukenchiai way, not killing way.

There are a few practical applications that have been handed down and clearly stated in our manual Gorin no Sho such as two sword timing as one.

Now I don't see that here.

<A href="http://musashikai.jp/pc/06_dojo/index_15.html" " target=_blank>http://musashikai.jp/pc/06_dojo/index_15.html"

I thought we agree people have different interpretation along the time...
Besides, seems they "adapted" to the Kendo. Maybe because they don't want anyone getting hurt, and enjoy a nice keiko together...

I see no inheritance here. If you think otherwise that's fine by me. If you think you can contradict what I can see as a load of nonsense having nothing to do with Niten Ichiryu by stating that, perhaps what we do is in "name only", that a tradition is not preserved and is dissapearing that's up to you.
It's for us to know and you to surmise and suppose by reading your books.
I can assure you what we have as a tradition is far deeper that books and internet posts. For sure if we all thought like you it would not survive for long.

Nobody is contradicting.
In fact, I even don't remember why such discussion started at all.
People are free to believe what they want in their myths, I just pointed out some "details" that people tends to forget when start some "traditional" stuff.
People are free to follow their beliefs in prol of personal development, tradition and peace.
At least, going back to the Musashi-kai group, we are sure they are trying to preserve the Nittou stuff spreading and making it more popular amongst the people.
Maybe some will want to understand deeply and will make visits at your NIR dojo. Don't forget to express grattitude if it happens...

Why not call the Budokan and Kobudo Kyokai and tell them to give it all up as a load of nonsense? Call up Yagyu Soke and tell him he just carries the family name? Tell the same to Togo Soke (Jigen Ryu).

I think I already have explained my doubts about Musashi "real" techniques and how it "surely" was passed to their "good students".
It's up to everyone use their common sense or not.
Peace.

MAD GOD

mad_god

12-05-2005, 06:08 PM

splice

13-05-2005, 01:12 AM

He have not taught in any school just because HE was very very strong, besides, it's well known he didn't teach his technique in "details" to anyone, as most the time he was living alone spending his time in a carve or doing artistic workshops (painting, writing, carvings, etc).

Sorry, I think you're dead wrong here.

You also say in another message:

Many books mentions the opposite, that his life after the Ganryujima is a mistery.

Again a strong assertion with no supporting evidence. What books would these be? Because in what I read, there are many records of Musashi's life after Ganryujima. His fight with Miyake Gunbei, for example, sometime during his stay in Himeji (shortly after ganryujima), is documented in Bisan Hokan, Nokokujin Monogatari, and the Nippon kendo shi．I can't find those first two references for the moment (they are chronicles of the fiefs in the region), but they are related in Shijitsu Miyamoto Musashi by Tominaga Kengo.

Musashi adopted two sons after ganryujima. Miyamoto Mikinosuke was the first, possibly between 1615 and 1617. You can find references of this in Hyoho senshi denki. Mikinosuke was presented to Honda Tadaoki and served under him until Honda's death in 1626, and Mikinosuke committed junshi. His second adopted son, Miyamoto Iori, was entered in Lord Ogasawara's service in 1626. This is related in the Nitenki, and parts of it are contradicted on a signboard in Tomari shrine within by Iori, and by the genealogy of the Miyamoto family (related in Shinjitsu Miyamoto Musashi). It is related that both of these sons were trained for a few years before Musashi presented them to their respective lords.

There are records and writings of Musashi's various activities during and after this time. He designed a garden in Akashi castle (from "Writings on Lord Ogasawara Tadasane" related in Shinjitsu Miyamoto Musashi). He is believed to have worked on various buildings in Himeji and Akashi. The kokura monument supports this with a mention of the fact there was nothing Musashi did not know about the arts of craftsmanship and construction.

There are reports of Musashi in Nagoya in his forties, including a fight with two vassals of Tokugawa Yoshinao, and an encounter Yagyu Hyogonosuke.

There are a great many references like this to Musashi's later life, including his time spent at Reigando composing his final work.

So, what books of yours mention that his life after Ganryujima is a mystery?

As far as the transmission of his art, I call bubkus on all you said. There are a number of records of Musashi transmitting his art to students, both as Enmei Ryu and Niten Ichi Ryu (and also, I believe, Niten Masana Ryu and Musashi Ryu). There are documents from 1607 (early in Musashi's life) authorizing some individuals (can't find the names for the moment) to teach Enmei Ryu. Other arts sprung up from those teachings (Tetsujin Ryu, Onko Chishin Ryu, Shin gyoto ryu) Regardless of those, if we concern ourselves with Musashi's final teachings, the sum of his art, the Niten Ichi Ryu of his later days (compared to the Enmei Ryu of his younger days), it is written that he considered Terao Magonojo, Terao Kyumanosuke and Furuhashi Sozaemon his three true pupils. This is related in a text cited by Nakazato Kaizan (Nihon Bujutsu Shinmyo Ki) and Miyamoto Musashi by Ozawa Masao. This is also supported for Terao Magonojo, as the copy of the Gorin no sho that was preserved by the Hosokawa Family, which ends with the notice:

The twelfth of the fifth month of the second year of Shoho [1645]
Shinmen Musashi
For the Honorable Terao Magonojo

As to your other arguments:

That's true that he made some documents about some "techniques" to try to make some people understand his point. But give a book to 10 people, reading it can make people interprete it in 10 different ways. Especially because his "pupils", different of other schools, had a short time living and learning directly from him.

No, he did not make some documents about techniques "to try and make some people understand his point". In fact, the gorin no sho was not a public document, and was given to his closest disciples (Terao brothers and Furuhashi Sozaemon). Even further, he told them on that day: "You must attain in practice everything that I communicated to you day by day without having any need to note anything down. There is no written text for my school. Once you have read what I have written, you must make an end to it with fire." This seems to indicate the gorin no sho was meant as Musashi's final thoughts to his successors, and not meant as a textbook on his style.

What references do you have that his disciples did not study under him for a long time? There are records of him teaching students back into his twenties.

I don't know what you mean by "good" student, but if none of them were capable to duel or fight "according" the "techinques" and "strategies" taught by Musashi against a remarkable opponent, like Musashi really did, I would have some concerns to think about the one's capability of assimilation of Musahshi's "ART".
Surely I believe many of them assimilated a strong and useful technique along the time, and nowadays some would be very skillful, but it doesn't mean it's "exactly" what Musashi had really taught.
If you say these people had "got" the real essence of his RYU, I really will rethink about many masters say that is necessary a whole life to understand their original teachers' axioms.

According to that argument, there can be NO transmission of any martial art, ever. A teacher's disciple is never the same as his teacher. If the teacher says "You are now authorised to teach my art" and signs a document to that effect, that means the teacher believes his student has grasped the essence of the style and can now pass it on. It doesn't mean the student fights exactly like his master, is just as strong as his master, can take down as many men as his master.

Otherwise, you're just saying "I know Musashi signed documents saying his students had attained his teachings and could pass them on, but I'm better than they are and Musashi is, so I can tell you without a doubt that those documents are insubstantial since none of his students were as strong as Musashi". Come on now. Was Yagyu Sekishusai Muneyoshi just as good as Kamiizumi Ise no Kami Fujiwara Hidetsuna? Was Ono Tadaaki just as good as Ito Ittosai Kagehisa? Who are you to say? If the teacher says the student can teach and transmit (they are different things) the style, then that's it. He's the successor. No matter what skill he has, but you'd better believe that someone who dedicates his life to the study of martial ways would not declare an inept student the successor. It doesn't matter how many years one spends studying. If the master says the student has attained the teachings, then that is that. The master is the only one who can say that, not some random internet message board poster. Since we're presumably in this to preserve the art, we follow what the successor says, always.

At any rate, this is tiring. This message took me over an hour to compose, looking up references and everything. You seem to just state your beliefs, and state them as fact. It's tiring debating in such a way.

It's up to everyone use their common sense or not

It's a sad thing when the common sense of one person goes against the knowledge and records of many, through many centuries.

And now that I think of it, isn't that exactly the same argument that conspiracy theorists use? "It's obvious the JFK assasination was a CIA plot, just look at the facts. It's up to everyone to use their common sense or not".

Let me ask again, how about some references? Where have you read about Musashi's art and its history? How about we stop discussing your "common sense" and start discussing fact and writings? What, exactly, are your sources?

mad_god

13-05-2005, 12:21 PM

Because in what I read, there are many records of Musashi's life after Ganryujima. His fight with Miyake Gunbei, for example, sometime during his stay in Himeji (shortly after ganryujima), is documented in Bisan Hokan, Nokokujin Monogatari, and the Nippon kendo shi．I can't find those first two references for the moment (they are chronicles of the fiefs in the region), but they are related in Shijitsu Miyamoto Musashi by Tominaga Kengo.

I agree Musashi dedicated to other workshops like caligraphy, paintings, etc and there are real evidences of this.
We're talking about swordsman techniques... Ok, you got one fight after Ganryujima.
Let me see. He was a teenager when first killed a samurai, 20 something with full energy of a youngster when fought the Yoshiokas, and almost 30 when dueled Kojiro. If you think a single fight (shortly after Ganryujima as you said) is enough to make "clear" his swordsman practice for 30 years, that's fine to me!

Mikinosuke was presented to Honda Tadaoki and served under him until Honda's death in 1626, and Mikinosuke committed junshi. His second adopted son, Miyamoto Iori, was entered in Lord Ogasawara's service in 1626. This is related in the Nitenki, and parts of it are contradicted on a signboard in Tomari shrine within by Iori, and by the genealogy of the Miyamoto family. It is related that both of these sons were trained for a few years before Musashi presented them to their respective lords.

Yes, Iori was very clever and was nominated to work for a lord. Also was he that suggested Musashi to move to Kumamoto and rest the end of his life.
But as you said, they practiced only "few years".

There are reports of Musashi in Nagoya in his forties, including a fight with two vassals of Tokugawa Yoshinao, and an encounter Yagyu Hyogonosuke.

I know there are some controversial texts, and I prefer don't discuss about them as it's meaningless to this discussion.

There are a number of records of Musashi transmitting his art to students, both as Enmei Ryu and Niten Ichi Ryu (and also, I believe, Niten Masana Ryu and Musashi Ryu). Regardless of those, if we concern ourselves with Musashi's final teachings, the sum of his art, the Niten Ichi Ryu of his later days (compared to the Enmei Ryu of his younger days), it is written that he considered Terao Magonojo, Terao Kyumanosuke and Furuhashi Sozaemon his three true pupils.

Ok, backing to the subject...
Yes, Enmyouryu and Musashiryu was transmitted to some "students" for "few years", but let's discuss about the NitenIchiRyu, that's the topic of this stressful discussion.
It's well known that Hosokawa's followers, those that in fact adopted Musashi as "teacher", because "their" lord liked Musashi and wanted him to be their master, were practicing and well used to the Yagyu style. Musashi was nominated when 57 to be the teacher, and had around 50-100 "students". Since he have died with 62 (?) he had 7 years (theorically) to pass "all his entire technique" to his almost 100 students... big work.
In common sense (for people that practiced any kind of Martial Art), that first, since you had practice for decades a style, changing to another one is not a easy work to do, and in fact you'll be biased in some interpretations of movements, even philosophy (maybe that's why there is some unexplicable similarity to Yagyu and NitenIchi style?).
Second, Musashi's real strenght was "himself", his "strategy" and "power". He was not nominated as "teacher" in the past because the lords, although recognizing he was very very strong, it would be difficult to "transmit" such "personal strenght" techinque to his students.
Third, as the book itself says by itself, GoRinnoSho is more "strategy" than "technique" and that's what really matters for Musashi. He fought a crazy battle against Yoshioka, a famous battle against Kojiro using an oar... Of course, some tips about how handle the sword or use the steps are mentioned (some controversial theories say it's copied from Heiho Kadensho or Takuan's book, etc) but not in detailed "katas".
Seems obvious that people just adapted his "strategy" and elaborated some basic movements to practice it. But again, was in fact Musashi that "created" such large number of the existing katas in NitenIchi??

In fact, the gorin no sho was not a public document, and was given to his closest disciples (Terao brothers and Furuhashi Sozaemon). Even further, he told them on that day: "You must attain in practice everything that I communicated to you day by day without having any need to note anything down. There is no written text for my school. Once you have read what I have written, you must make an end to it with fire." This seems to indicate the gorin no sho was meant as Musashi's final thoughts to his successors, and not meant as a textbook on his style.

So, attain in the practice everything he "communicated" to them was the "kata" itself? The "essence" of NIR is the kata people perform nowadays, not the strategy?
And no need to attain the GoRinnoSho? That's interesting, why the people of NitenIchi school always mention proudly this "meaningless" book? Strange...
Anyway, be aware of whitewashings in Japanese textbooks. They always tends to mythfy or glorify things.

According to that argument, there can be NO transmission of any martial art, ever. A teacher's disciple is never the same as his teacher.

Seems you are going to the wrong point. I am saying people will have different interpretations or "way" to adopt the teachings of their master. Especially if such teachings were not often and made in "few" years.
But it's fine for me if people claim they have interpreted correctly and are passing the teachings to their students.
What I am saying, backing to the very original topic, it's that this Musashi-kai have interpretated the teaching in a different way as the Mr. Hyaku, and none of them (in particular Mr. Hyaku) should blame or point out fingers to others saying "he" is the "right" one. This just sounds stupid and childish coming from someone that claims himself "sensei" of NitenIchi school, especially when we talk about Martial Arts, where obviously "never" you will be able to get "all" the meanings in the same way of your master.
Difficult to digest?

"I know Musashi signed documents saying his students had attained his teachings and could pass them on, but I'm better than they are and Musashi is, so I can tell you without a doubt that those documents are insubstantial since none of his students were as strong as Musashi".

I think Mr. Hyaku is the one that in fact is claiming he is the righteous and strongest one, threatening people that if practice with him in dojo in "his" not nice Musashi's ways would have the need to call an ambulance?
Blaming that the another group don't have the proper kamae and are a band of ignorants? Pointing out the other's kamae as meaningless "holding an umbrella in the wing"? It's obvious that the another group had to adapt the style for "normal" people be used to practice according "kendo rules" in a safe, nice and beautiful manner. Musashi seems also never gave so much attention to "kamae" itself....! Strange.
Calling someone he even doesn't know a 12 years old anime fan and ordering to shutup? It's not a strategical way according Musashi...!
And if he claims he is really a "follower" of Musashi's teachings, also Niten Ichi ryu follower, he should be aware that his childish and pathetci behaviour was "strategically" (the main strenght of Musashi) wrong, as publically he damaged the good name of his NitenIchiryu school.
He said his Soke is talking about attorney/solicitor!! Geez....!!
Can you guess how stupid his Soke would looked like, fighting in a public court to decide who would be the "right" follower of a NitenIchi school (in a world nobody really cares about), the damage in such reputable school name, the Koryu world, Budo world, even Japanese tradition & Musashi's name? Do you really think the Soke has said such pathetic thing to make him it public to the world in this respectable forum?
The guy is a threat to NitenIchi school. Hamon would be too kind for such behaviour... He is lucky he is not a "sensei" at my school...

Come on now. Was Yagyu Sekishusai Muneyoshi just as good as Kamiizumi Ise no Kami Fujiwara Hidetsuna? Was Ono Tadaaki just as good as Ito Ittosai Kagehisa? Who are you to say? If the teacher says the student can teach and transmit (they are different things) the style, then that's it. He's the successor. It doesn't matter how many years one spends studying. If the master says the student has attained the teachings, then that is that.

I am pretty sure the original masters and nowadays masters have a big gap.
Original ones were fighting real fights to survive or be killed. Nowadays we all live in peace.
And "everybody" knows it. People should know we should bring the tradition to pass to the next generation in a peaceful way. Not "fighting" each other. Kendo originated from the bloody sytles of Ittou Kenjutsus.
Musashi-kai had a very good step bringing the art of NIR to be more well known in Kendo world. People can practice nicely, beautifully and without being injuried by a "not nicely way" of Nittou. They seems be very friendly and opened mind. That's what really matters and that's what I was trying to point out in this meaningless discussion.

At any rate, this is tiring. You seem to just state your beliefs, and state them as fact. It's tiring debating in such a way.

My intention is not debate neither discuss with anyone here.
But I am glad for your kindness to explain in details your point of view.
I hope my point also was cleared and we could move on.
In the name of the Budo and tradition.

Peace.

MAD GOD

Kaoru

13-05-2005, 01:06 PM

Thank for pointing out it, but I know what we are talking about.
The confusion about this shinai stuff cames out because the Musashi-kai's follower seems to be also a Soke of one of NittenIchiRyu ramification.
In my understanding they practice both NIR and Nittou ryu.
Unfortunatelly I know their work only by the book they published about Nittou ryu few years ago, which they mention the Soke is transmitting NittenIchiryu but also uses Nittouryu, adapting the Koryuu techniques to the nowadays' kendo style.

You don't adapt a Kenjutsu Ryu to Kendo. Kendo was not even around in Musashi's time, and neither were shinai.

If you claim to only know this Musashi-kai Ryu by book only, why do you insist on discussing it? If you only read a book, you should not be talking in such detail.

Yes, I practice sword and other kind of Martial Arts.
In fact, doens't matter what they are, or which rank I am.
I don't want to biased anyone's oppinion or point of view due to what I carry in my resume.
By it was nice talk with you.

Yes, it does matter, and as Hyaku-sensei said, "put up or shut up" That means either tell us who you are and what you train in and what rank, or stop talking.
If you can't tell us, who are you to be talking about this? It is vulgar to hide your Ryu and rank. I do have an idea of what Ryu you study though, because it seems you slipped perhaps. Not that I am ferreting out anything on purpose. I just happened to catch this.

You wrote in post 57:

At least, going back to the Musashi-kai group, we are sure they are trying to preserve the Nittou stuff spreading and making it more popular amongst the people.

Are you a Musashi-Kai member? Just wondering... I would like a truthful answer please. I just tend to think you are. Why not just be honest? It would make you look better than you do now. At least we would know your position.

As I said, it is important to know what you train in and your rank, because how can a proper discussion take place if you can't back yourself up with anything? I suspect you are at least a Dan level, judging by some other posts you have made elsewhere. It is so foolish and silly to hide behind a computer and not say unless you really just read a lot of books and that's it, which makes you not credible at all.

Well, please tell us your Ryu and rank. I was not trying to being insulting to ask. I just wanted to know to whom I am speaking with. :)

Kaoru

Kaoru

13-05-2005, 01:38 PM

By the way, I have not chance to watch the video of Musashi-kai because I am a poor man (it makes me a soke, as I don't teach anything for making money?), therefore I cannot give you detailed oppinions.

Didn't you see the link he provided? That is the video he is talking about! Holy cow... I even found it and watched them.

Being poor has nothing to do with this, since Hyaku-sensei kindly provided you with a link to the online videos to watch.

Would you please knock it off with the Soke references? Thank you.

But according to the book they published, well, there are some interesting wazas, other that I don't think is really applicable... I would like to see them someday...

Please go watch the videos he provided. Then you will see them.

About the holding like an umbrella stuff, have you stopped to think maybe it's because it's an easy way to hold them even for someone not so physically strong and young enough like the warrior time's Musashi?

Gee, really? I am not even in bogu yet, and I even have a problem with what you just said, and with the video footage of that. I am not an expert obviously and just a beginner in Kendo, but it is easy to see that what Hyaku-sensei is talking about. I watched it after he said it, to see what he meant. Holding the long sword like that way over his head as if it is an umbrella, doesn't make sense, if this is Kenjutsu we are talking about. Heck, even in Kendo perhaps. He leaves his whole body open for attack. The shoto doesn't look like it could protect in a real fight. I wouldn't put it over my head like that. *waits for Hyaku-sensei to comment*

You don't do something because it is easy. That will land you in trouble. You do a thing so it will cover you and make it easy to attack while protecting yourself.
So, holding the long sword like that simply because it is easier, is false reasoning. You do what works, not what is easiest.

That is my humble opinion.(Being a beginner and all.)

That is as much as I can talk without getting myself into deep water where I can't swim. *waiting for Hyaku-sensei/Splice-san to tell me my argument is right or wrong* *curious because I got interested*

Wow, this is really making me think about things I do in practice and why I do this or that cut and why I do it this or that way.

Kaoru

mad_god

13-05-2005, 02:06 PM

You don't adapt a Kenjutsu Ryu to Kendo. Kendo was not even around in Musashi's time, and neither were shinai.

Kendo originated from Kenjutsu schools. In order to make it a popular and healthy thing. Of course, postures and attacking positions were "adapted" to make it a "clean, healthy and easy" thing to normal people take practice.
And further, Kenjutsu originated from bloody battles and duels, many Kenjutsu schools just appeared in Tokugawa Era, when the nation was in PEACE.
Obviously many techniques were adapted to that era, as it would be nonsense people go around killing each other as part of their "keiko".
We have most of such schools, including NitenIchi, using bokutos or fukuro shinai in this era. Sounds strange? No, they are changing.... little by little, according the "reality" we live.

If you claim to only know this Musashi-kai Ryu by book only, why do you insist on discussing it? If you only read a book, you should not be talking in such detail.

Well, ask them why they want to argue with me!
As said in another post, I am just saying this Musashi-kai has their own view and we should "respect" them.

Yes, it does matter, and as Hyaku-sensei said, "put up or shut up" That means either tell us who you are and what you train in and what rank, or stop talking.
If you can't tell us, who are you to be talking about this? It is vulgar to hide your Ryu and rank. I do have an idea of what Ryu you study though, because it seems you slipped perhaps. Not that I am ferreting out anything on purpose. I just happened to catch this.

Since seems I am talking to people that pretends living in Tokugawa era, remind Musashi didn't have any ryu and rank when fighting with Yoshiokas or Kojiro. So, again... this obsession of Ryu and rank is childish. What really matters is if people can discuss logically and in a respectful way.

Are you a Musashi-Kai member? Just wondering... I would like a truthful answer please. I just tend to think you are. Why not just be honest? It would make you look better than you do now. At least we would know your position..

My position was clear in previous posts. And nope, I am not Musashi-kai's member but would like to make a friendly visit some day.

As I said, it is important to know what you train in and your rank, because how can a proper discussion take place if you can't back yourself up with anything? I suspect you are at least a Dan level, judging by some other posts you have made elsewhere. It is so foolish and silly to hide behind a computer and not say unless you really just read a lot of books and that's it, which makes you not credible at all. ..

If you think my arguments are not strong enough, it's up to you. We (luckly) live in a democratic world (not a feudal world) and people can express their oppinions and point of views. Even pointing out fingers to someone's group as Mr. Hyaku likes to do.

Well, please tell us your Ryu and rank. I was not trying to being insulting to ask. I just wanted to know to whom I am speaking with. :)

Sorry, but I will keep my policy.
My ranking or ryuuha are not relevant to debate general issues related the topic on discussion. If I were a Musashi-kai member and "defending" my dojo's name, yes, I agree it would be an obligation to say who I am. But I am not, it's just a third party point of view.
What I can say is that I have deep knowledge of history and some Japanese/Chinese Martial Arts, including Kendo and Kenjutsu.
Peace.

MAD GOD

mad_god

13-05-2005, 02:36 PM

Being poor has nothing to do with this, since Hyaku-sensei kindly provided you with a link to the online videos to watch.

My computer is too old and cannot download images fast. Sorry.

Would you please knock it off with the Soke references? Thank you..

I just followed Mr. Hyaku's idea that people should not use Martial Arts for making money. This a pathetic point of view, as it's well known most of the famous schools survived because they have enough financial/political backup to proceed in their practice. Or where do you think the money for their dojos, their nice clothes, swords, etc were coming from?
Most of them, including Musashi, has the ideal to be strong and recognized by some lord so that they could earn good money and live in peace for the rest of their lives. Yagyu was one of the famoust of them, being recognized by the Shogun, and Musashi by the lord in Kumamoto. Where do you think he got the money to buy all the stuffs he were doing? Painting, Caligraphy, Carvings, etc?
So, let's don't be brainwashed by the myth and fake glorification that they were not earning Money or Reputation or Power, that most of people tend to believe.

Please go watch the videos he provided. Then you will see them.

Gee, really? I am not even in bogu yet, and I even have a problem with what you just said, and with the video footage of that. I am not an expert obviously and just a beginner in Kendo, but it is easy to see that what Hyaku-sensei is talking about. I watched it after he said it, to see what he meant. Holding the long sword like that way over his head as if it is an umbrella, doesn't make sense, if this is Kenjutsu we are talking about. Heck, even in Kendo perhaps. He leaves his whole body open for attack. The shoto doesn't look like it could protect in a real fight. I wouldn't put it over my head like that. *waits for Hyaku-sensei to comment* .

He already gave his terrible comment...
In Kendo there are some "rules" in order to make it competitive, but also nice and "beautiful". The most important part however, maybe is the philosophy, that one of them is Koukenchiai. Means, practice with Love.
Having a nice practice with your opponent, don't be afraid if he can hit you. If the opponent hit you, say "thanks", not "sh*t!".
It makes human relationship a good and healthy things, and both can improve in "their" ways.
By the way, you should know even Musashi is well known for mentioning the Non-kamae stuff. Why then say if such kamae is good or bad. Doen't make sense. Obviously, Mushashi-kai adpated the style to be "accepted" in a Kendo world and rules.
But anyway, you should know there is a "joudan" kamae in NIR that is similar to that. Unless your NIR style is another ramification of the one I know.

You don't do something because it is easy. That will land you in trouble. You do a thing so it will cover you and make it easy to attack while protecting yourself.
So, holding the long sword like that simply because it is easier, is false reasoning. You do what works, not what is easiest.
That is my humble opinion.(Being a beginner and all.).

You do because it works, and because it's easy. Things that you cannot do, even if you think is good, doens't mean the right choice.
Holding 2 swords because you think it works, it's an illusion if you are a small girl, because probably could not fight properly with 2 heavy swords in your hands. For every one there is something that it works and is easy at same time. Doens't mean it will the one you should choose.
Further, you should understand Kendo's rules of what they consider Ippon and not. So understand their motives you will see their logic.
What is wrong is blame orange discussing apples, as Mr. Hyaku did. Kenjutsu has their own point of view, that in Kendo no necessary you can use it directly, need to adapt them for the shinai's world.

Wow, this is really making me think about things I do in practice and why I do this or that cut and why I do it this or that way.

As Musashi did, thinking, arguing, studying and finding the answer by himself is the best and correct way to improve.
You're right and I hope you continue doing it.
Nobody can improve just blaming others and thinking they are the right and correct ones. Means being modests?
Peace.

MAD GOD

KenShi_JoB

13-05-2005, 04:03 PM

Kaoru-san,

I really love how you dedicate to KWF, but I think this thread is beyond your abilities. You do not have enough knowledge. I think we should just observe.

You don't adapt a Kenjutsu Ryu to Kendo.
Kendo is adapted from kenjutsu.

kanyil

13-05-2005, 04:09 PM

Again, no koryu is involved in this post as I am unfit to comment on this topic. I am only commenting on Kendo, not kenjutsu. Also, I thought Kendo was not meant to be used in a "real-fight" nowadays. That's why we have guns.

Gee, really? I am not even in bogu yet, and I even have a problem with what you just said, and with the video footage of that....Holding the long sword like that way over his head as if it is an umbrella, doesn't make sense...

For your reference, Musashi-kai's theory behind holding the daito "this way" seeks to line up the shinai's center of gravity (aka point-of-balance) with the centerline. When swung to hit men, the point-of-balance travels alongs the centerline (the shortest route between the two kendokas), and the shinai rotates into place around the travelling point-of-balance. Much emphasis is placed on the wrist, hasuji and "shimeru" when cutting this way.

This is the swing and tenouchi taught by Musashi-kai, and very little actual strength is needed if done correctly. From personal experience, being hit like this will result in a solid hit, but does NOT hurt.

The shoto doesn't look like it could protect in a real fight. I wouldn't put it over my head like that.

Kaoru, I have nothing but respect for you, and you add to this forum in many wonderful ways. I just don't understand why you have decided to take up arms on this issue. Are you a HNIR practitioner?

As you have advised the likes of Gatsu, Jackchen and countless many others to start kendo before purporting to dispense kendo-related advice, and forgive me for saying this, but perhaps it could be equally useful to at least have some nito experience before passing nito-related judgments?

mad_god

13-05-2005, 05:03 PM

Also, I thought Kendo was not meant to be used in a "real-fight" nowadays. That's why we have guns.

Maybe we should remind Mr. Hyaku about this. So next time he goes to a dojo make a koukenchiai fight, nobody will need to call an insurance company or even an ambulance!
But seriously, I would like to see Mr. Hyaku perform his "not nice Musashi's way" in some "aragueiko" I know... people tends to be very brave in things they just don't know what they are talking about... but I never expected such (pathetic) comment by someone that is carrying a NitenIchiRyu's kanban...!

For your reference, Musashi-kai's theory behind holding the daito "this way" seeks to line up the shinai's center of gravity (aka point-of-balance) with the centerline. When swung to hit men, the point-of-balance travels alongs the centerline (the shortest route between the two kendokas), and the shinai rotates into place around the travelling point-of-balance. Much emphasis is placed on the wrist, hasuji and "shimeru" when cutting this way.
This is the swing and tenouchi taught by Musashi-kai, and very little actual strength is needed if done correctly. From personal experience, being hit like this will result in a solid hit, but does NOT hurt. .

There're different ways and logic envolved in how is the most useful way to hold a 2 swords, but again, shinai is a different stuff including the rules envolved. I understand the explanation although I have my own concerns about that.

Kaoru, I have nothing but respect for you, and you add to this forum in many wonderful ways. I just don't understand why you have decided to take up arms on this issue. Are you a HNIR practitioner?

If she is a HNIR student, I hope she is not learning it from Mr. Hyaku... there is a phrase saying you should waste 3 months looking for a good teacher, otherwise will lose 3 years of meaninful practice....
Although I support her wish to continue the practice.
Peace and nice shugyou.

MG

Kaoru

13-05-2005, 05:19 PM

Kaoru-san,

I really love how you dedicate to KWF, but I think this thread is beyond your abilities. You do not have enough knowledge. I think we should just observe.

Kendo is adapted from kenjutsu.

Yes, I know Kendo is adapted from Kenjutsu. That's not what I meant. I don't know how to explain what I meant, even though I know what I was intending to say. *sigh* If you didn't see what I meant, that tells me it would have been better not to say it. :) If I can't explain, I shouldn't say it, right?

But yes you are right, and that's why I said I couldn't comment further on the waza at the end of my post. :)

But heck, I got interested, and couldn't help saying what I saw and then thought.

Guess I should contain myself better...

Thanks. :)

Kaoru

mad_god

13-05-2005, 05:50 PM

mad_god

13-05-2005, 06:00 PM

Yes, I know Kendo is adapted from Kenjutsu. That's not what I meant. I don't know how to explain what I meant, even though I know what I was intending to say. *sigh* If you didn't see what I meant, that tells me it would have been better not to say it. :) If I can't explain, I shouldn't say it, right?

But yes you are right, and that's why I said I couldn't comment further on the waza at the end of my post. :)

But heck, I got interested, and couldn't help saying what I saw and then thought.

Guess I should contain myself better...

Thanks. :)

Kaoru

My guess is that maybe you're confusing Kenjutsu's point of view with nowadays' Kendo rules.
Since there are some rules involved, people are allowed, and sometimes, forced to modify and adapt their styles for the rules involved.
Besides, as I said, the definition of Ippon in Kendo is the origin of such differences...
Again, it's necessary to understand them to also see the Musashi-kai's point of view. After that, you can say it is worthy or not.
In the same way, it's necessary understand NIR's essence to comprehend why they make such kind of kamaes....
In the end, all of them are the same, Kendo or Kenjutsu, as Musashi itself explains in GorinnoSho.... basic form is important, but the "form" itself is not what really matters.
Any kind of weapon is a weapon, everything should change according the circumstances (and rules).
Keep in your shugyou...

MAD GOD

Kaoru

13-05-2005, 06:28 PM

For your reference, Musashi-kai's theory behind holding the daito "this way" seeks to line up the shinai's center of gravity (aka point-of-balance) with the centerline. When swung to hit men, the point-of-balance travels alongs the centerline (the shortest route between the two kendokas), and the shinai rotates into place around the travelling point-of-balance. Much emphasis is placed on the wrist, hasuji and "shimeru" when cutting this way.

Are you talking Nito Kendo or the Musashi-ki version of HNIR Kenjutsu?
Just curious... it still looks like the person's front is totally exposed when the long sword is so high. Why does it have to be above the head so far? I just am wondering... My curiosity couldn't contain itself.

This is the swing and tenouchi taught by Musashi-kai, and very little actual strength is needed if done correctly. From personal experience, being hit like this will result in a solid hit, but does NOT hurt.

Do you mean that you partially use the weight of the shinai to cut? Do you know what I mean by that? (When you say it requires little strength.)

Kaoru, I have nothing but respect for you, and you add to this forum in many wonderful ways. I just don't understand why you have decided to take up arms on this issue. Are you a HNIR practitioner?

At the point when I was talking about the video, my curiosity got the better of me. I read Hyaku-sensei's reply, and then watched the video to see what he meant.
I got so interested that I made a beginner's observation that I hoped Hyaku-sensei would check, to see if I was learning anything or not. I don't mind being told by him that I am dead wrong or that I might have sort of the right idea(Would be audacious of me to think I even got any idea I had correct, since I am just a beginner Kendoka.)

No, I don't study HNIR. I said right in my post, I do Kendo and that I am a beginner. I have been practicing Kendo for a year and a half, but that still makes me a beginner.

My curiosity just went on overdrive.

As to the rest, I do know something about it, but I do not know not even nearly the same amount as Hyaku-sensei and Splice-san. They are light years ahead. I may ask questions though, but not