I can't help it, but humans are the same

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

Why in some parts of the word we find people killing and hating each other?
I mean there is no reason for some to hate some other person just for his religion, faith?

As a muslim i would to quoat something from the Holy Quran?

" Oh people.. we have made you into nations and tribes for you to know each other.... Thus the best of you are the people who are God- fearing"

Dont get me wrong but i'm not into religious things that much but reading this made me think if Allah (God) wanted us to fight, kill, rape or anything else he would have said so... anyways what ever culture, religion, faith you have or i have... we should respect it.

We are humans i like each one of you kendokas out there..

Group Hug

[CryingFreeman]

i feel you man

stop the violence

[KenShi_JoB]

It's may be sound sad, but human can not stop violence. There will always have conflict and killing in human population, because of religious or not.

[LNGUYEN]

It is in Human natural, greedy and jealously. God has nothing to do with it. He gives Human a free will which we used it for many unreasonable things. Sometimes, we use God as a front reason to do bad things. In the old time, the European used Missionary purpose front shield to colonize other countries; The Muslim used the reason of converting others to Islam as a shield to conquer other countries. Today, It is happening the same thing again. In the old time, we killed each others, conquered others for power, golds, foods, and virgins :wink: . Now, we fought each others for oils. The oils rich countries decided that if they limited the production, raise the price, then we will be richer. Other countries stumble for oils for survival and didn't want to pay heftily, so they started to find the way for better solution. Guess what, war started again. Other wars are for lands, and ownerships. the jews and Palestinian is the example. First, the Jews wanted to create a haven for all of Jews, the Palestinian didn't want the Jews came near their houses, so they started to harrass them. Later the Jews became more powerful and now the palestinian fight for their survival. Other war started because the stupid reason as :my God is better than your God. Example is the Catholic Iris and the Protestant Iris.

In front of God, we are just dump stupid children, and as the matter of fact, we act like children too. So God has nothing to do with it, we are.

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

Yeah that makes sense, so we are the problem. Weird, i guess the change should start from us. You at fridays when i go to the mosque... the preacher would say oh God help us... oh God save us, and hello it's like the pearcher an effort in doing anything is doing anything.

God won't change what in group of people until they change the things that are deep inside their souls.
And God created us and gave us something called the brain... it's a thing that we should us sometime.

[Banza Joe]

.....if you believe in god that it.

[Kyuuketsuki]

GREED


Thats what its all about.
Most of people always want more and more wealth (sp?). They dont even realize that ANYTHING that you have will last forever.
As for me, if I eat everyday at least once, I can say I had a good day.

Instead of looking for material richness, seek for mental, intellectual and spiritual richness, those are things that you can keep FOREVER. And best of all, you dont need to war for these, BECAUSE ITS FREE!

[nalogg]

.....if you believe in god that is.
You don't have to believe in God to understand goodness and unity. :)
In fact, I think our fellow people are a much more responsive and rewarding motivator to do good deeds, than a mysterious and untouchable God.


There will always have conflict and killing in human population, because of religious or not.
You're right, religion is merely an excuse (1 of many silly excuses) to act out in violence against people that we fear because they are different from us. But hey anything is possible... Violence is in human nature. We're territorial, and afraid of everything. But if we, as a species used more of our brain, we could overcome that. We're slowly weeding out unproductive traits in our nature.

[Djanello]

Ok, time to insert something that might be considered controversial;


Wars exist not because humans are bad, but because they wish to survive.
Before discussing without end, just think about this very long and very hard. In the end, you'll agree.

[Optomitrist]

about the god thing.

A rough quote from Musashi. "Gods are not to be idolized an praised but respected and honored." Do no rely on your god to get the job done. You are in control of your actions.

And greed, violence is part of our nature. The only thing we can do is satisfy what ever iches us so that thing don't lead to such actions.

[Ares]

Asalam 3lykom,
I had no idea there was kendo in kuwait, i lived in dubai all my life, but started kendo in canada. I have been trying to look for a place to continue practice when i go home for the summer, i dont suppose you know any???
Take care man!

[nalogg]

Wars exist not because humans are bad, but because they wish to survive.
Before discussing without end, just think about this very long and very hard. In the end, you'll agree.
meh, i don't agree.
I suppose that one of the spoils of war is some type of survival, but it's more like "wars exist because we are too lazy, proud, stubborn, scared, and greedy to use means of survival other than war." I'm talking about making sacrifices, making alliances, conserving and communicating.
If all of north america had taken greater steps to become non-oil-dependant, imagine how much conflict would have been averted in the last few US/mid-east skirmishes. It may be a safe bet to say that there might not have been much of a skirmish at all.... but that's another thread alltogether.

[Optomitrist]

Yeah nalogg, that is, that would take a lot of posts to cover that.


All I can say is that humans are born with natural insticts. But their environment plays a role as the humans grow into adults. Everything is to blame. It really is too bad. The only way to fight it is for everyone to take kendo. It.. is.. our only chance.

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

Well, the whole point is not to hate each other for what we believe in. I mean some of the people said in their post that they dont believe in God, and it's okey to believe in that. Hey some people will have problems with that specialy my people, but it's not my choice to make everyone believe in the things that i believe in. Surely there are many things that we kind find in one of us. there must be similarites between us.

[nalogg]

some people will have problems with that specialy my people, but it's not my choice to make everyone believe in the things that i believe in.
hehehe, well believe me. In north america there is just as many people who will "have a problem with that"... and it's not only religious... there's sexuality, race, and pollitical viewpoints too.



Surely there are many things that we kind find in one of us. there must be similarites between us.
You're absolutely right on that one. We are ALL the same. We should accept eachother because of our similarities rather than hating eachother for our differences.

[Mikeyprime]

Without chaos, peace cannot exist. Havent you seen demolition man. what a boring society, that is why the underground movement was there. War will always exist, it is what makes us human, we love entropy.

[KenShi_JoB]

In buddhism, there is old saying that bad exist because of good, good exist because of bad, to eliminate bad, we have to put good aside together. It is very deep concept and hard to understand. This concept is about Nirvana.

[Kyuuketsuki]

This is a phrase that was used by a mexican revolutionary and it says:

"The respect for each others rights is peace".
Period.

I must say he was so damn right.

[Yo...osh!]

Have u guys heard of the neo-realism theory to global conflict? It's very interesting. The following is their theory, it is not my personal opinion though I agree with aspects of it.

Basically, ask yourself why there isn't any huge conflict in your home country. Is it because people are inherently kind and "not greedy" to each other? No, it's more because of the system of government and policing that makes it a disincentive for people to pillage each other. If there was no government, no laws and no police in a state, people will steal off each other. People have incentive to steal, rob, pillage because there is no recourse of justice for wrongs done. Government and avenues of justice is what creates peace in the domestic realm.

Translate that into the international realm. Why is there never ending conflict? Because there is no "Higher", "Global" government with authority to govern state behaviour. There isn't uniform "law", no recourse to justice for wrongs done. Therefore the international realm is one of 'anarchy'.

In anarchy, what's to stop a country with powerful resources from attacking a smaller, vulnerable country? Nothing. In fact, if your the most powerful nation in the world, you don't have to listen to anybody. Therefore confict perpetuates because there is nothing "from above" able to govern behaviour.

Food for thought....

[Kikuchiyo]

Humans aren't an entity to be classified or understood, and neither is the great phenomenon of existence. There's too much mystery to be able to be sure of any theory or nature of mankind. Take Hume's fork. Pretty much, there is no knowledge to be had of this world.

It's all fate in my eyes. Everybody has their path to take, and there really isn't any free will to choose anything. But we like to believe in choice, because it's an individualistic trait that gives us power. I like thinking of everything as a roller coaster: it's on a track and you're just along for the ride.

We're victims of circumstance. Had any of us been born within differing situations, we would all be differing people. All the war and fighting is just circumstance taking care of itself. Que sera sera. Sure it's bad and evil and nasty, but there's no choice. Life is still beautiful though. It's all part of the experience.

[CryingFreeman]

War may be part of our nature now but i dont believe it will always be, the world is getting smaller and groups of people are merging. i agree with Nalogg

All our negative traits are being weeded out slowly but surely

There will be peace on earth

Greed envy and war are all distractions from what is necessary for sustaining life, eventually when this is accepted by most people, they will cease

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Dont get me wrong but i'm not into religious things that much but reading this made me think if Allah (God) wanted us to fight, kill, rape or anything else he would have said so...


Group Hug
Funny thing is, he did say so...

Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Repentance: 123)

Then when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters (The non-Muslims) wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush..." (Repentance, IX: 5)



"Paradise lies under the shade of swords." (Al Bokhari 4: The Hadith)

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great (Women: 4)

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

']Funny thing is, he did say so...

Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Repentance: 123)

Then when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters (The non-Muslims) wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush..." (Repentance, IX: 5)



"Paradise lies under the shade of swords." (Al Bokhari 4: The Hadith)

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great (Women: 4)
All the quranic vers was talking about the people who harmed the prophet mohammed when he asked them to worship God and they started war againts him. and he can't stand there just waiting to die.

The hadith that you mentioned could not greed upon because paradies lies under the feets of our mothers and it's under the shadow of swords. :)

funny it might be under our shinais if you are right about it lol.

and we dont treat womens like shit. coz i'm not living in saudia arabia bro they are like total maniacs right there.... i mean come on they wont allow women to even drive. duh

and as Allah said to Mohammed ( pbuh)

If you were rude and and unforgivable to other people besides you. then will turn away from you.

Note: unbeliever= qrashi unbelievers who fought Mohammed, and no we dont kill unbelievers or whatever they were just because they dont like what i think...... i can't say that some of our people see it the way you... coz i will be lieing... yes we have stupid people like that who think we must kill other people which sick.

[Samanosuke]

Just a sly word to Kensei... "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose" ;-)
I still can't help thinking that even though Kendo is originally an art of war, somehow Kendoka should, in general, be less likely to be in favour of war in principal.

Perhaps a detailed knowledge of the controlled application of violence disinclines one to relying on it to solve everyday problems... particularly those problems caused by politicians with no military experience....

[Hisham]

']Funny thing is, he did say so...

Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Repentance: 123)

Then when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters (The non-Muslims) wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush..." (Repentance, IX: 5)



"Paradise lies under the shade of swords." (Al Bokhari 4: The Hadith)

This is another proof that nothing is better than to read a book in its original language if one can.

You're taking those two verses from there context which is answering an agression,read the whole surate. there's something you should keep in mind while reading Quran which is cause of "nuzul" and also to be aware of what was written before so that the concepts be clearer and not fall into some out of this world interpretations like the one you were hinting at(and you're sadly not the only one), i dunno how many times i saw these two verses quoted by some western media people to fuel the paranoia and hate after 9/11.

The hadith may appear like, "hey lets kill people to go to paradise":paranoid: to people who know nothing about islam or to some who're just looking for ways to confirm there prejudice, the thing is you have to see it in the light of the islamic concept of "not starting a fight", defending your dignity and that of your people ...etc , based on that the hadith would mean: when you fall (under the shadow of swords) against agressors defending your people and all that you cherish, straight to paradise you will go without judgement, the concept of dieing fisabili llah (literally meaning the way of allah) includes all that, missunderstanfing may occur especially when reading translations (that's why a Quran in english is always seen as a "translation" of Quran). I don't know how many times in that book none agression has been insisted on, maybe you should find out.

Anyway what i want to say is please don't take a part of a whole and start making judgements, that's not the way it works, same goes for the status of women in islam, which is sadly not the one we're seeing today in most muslim countries which is treating women as objects and servants(the Messenger always helped in the house when he could, go tell that to an average muslim, he'd be shoked).
I will honestly say that the muslim world is living in the dark ages, in other words most muslims of this era aren't representative of the islamic values and principles that made out there civilization, arabs (i know what i'm talking about cuse i'm one) sepecificly are the worst example of that reality since arabic is relatively granted in there case, for instance the Quran insists on educating oneself asking questions and seeking wisdom, i'll give an example of how far off we're from that, in my country almost 75 to 80% of the people are analphabets, think about the reprecutions that is having. On a positive note i think that the our dark ages are starting to fade away slowly but surely.

Man i got caried out ,this post is too long and should've been posted in another board :D but i had IMHO some clarifications to make as someone who has a small knowledge about the subject.
Sorry about going out of subject Kuwaiti which is respecting others as felow human beings and not falling to some of the elites propagandas like "it's us or them" stupid idiotic nationalistic stuff that they feed the people to better control em.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

i was raised in Iran and had to learn alot of the Koran off by heart in arabic... even if those remarks are in the context of agression that doesnt justify them..

"hatred is not ceased by hatred, only by love" - Buddha

"some monk is entirely gentle and peaceful s long as unpleasant words and actions do not assail him. But it is when they do that he is known to posses those virtue. I do not call that monk well spoken who is well spoken when he receives shelter , food etc.. why so? That monk , on not getting those things should be well spoken peacefull and polite..."


I dont think violence should justify violence , and thats just my idea on the flaws of Judeo-Islamic thought...


"And fight in he way of God with those who fight with you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors. And slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you..." (The Cow, ii: 185)
Yes this is clearly fighting against AGRESSORS..

but to gruesome extents....
"It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter in the land." (The Spoils, VIII: 65)

"Acting as Allah's soldier for one night in a battlefield is superior to saying prayers at home for 1,000 years." (Ibne Majah, Vol. 2, page 166)

Koran 8:12
Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

Koran 5:51
Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers

Koran 22:19-22:23
Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Sclading water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'

Koran 18:28-30
For the wrongdoers We have prepared a fire which will encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they cry out for help they shall be showered with water as hot as molten brass, which will scald their faces. Evil shall be their drink, dismal their resting-place.


Koran 58:5
Those who resist Allah and his messenger will be humbled to dust.

Resist??? That clearly marks out Allah and his messenger as the agresssors...


Koran 5:10
As for those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the heirs of Hell.

Once again, the nonbelievers have no say in the matter.

Koran 70:39
We have created the unbelievers out of base matters.



Ok so God created me out of base matters and i will burn in hell.. because i dont believe in Allah


i really dont see anyway that i can go to heaven if i DONT believe in him so any counter argument is rubbish

Im not anti muslim, im from a muslim family/country and i respect the 99% percent of peaceloving , nice , respectable , moral muslims in the world
but if they were to follow the Koran word for word they would not be So.

[CryingFreeman]

like samanoske said

even the devil can quote scripture for his purposes

in truth what is written in the Holy Books was written by man and man is often a product of his environment. so to understand what was written you must read it in its entirety, understanding also the social and political climate under which it was written.

i think when you study kendo or in fact most eastern martial arts you develop a respect for the control of violence. You understand it better which is why you are less likely to resort to violence to settle disputes. You realise when and where it is really truly necessary, you are also more comfortable with violence so you are less likely to be agitated and irrational in a potentially violent situation, you can still debate and compromise when necessary.

i think this is why kendoka's and martial artists are less likely to be in favour of War

and why a lot of other people like samanouske said "Politicians" and people with their own selfish agenda's and motivations are in favour of such courses of action.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

in truth what is written in the Holy Books was written by man and man is often a product of his environment. so to understand what was written you must read it in its entirety, understanding also the social and political climate under which it was written.


yes i totaly believe that but Muslims believe or are meant to believe that they are the very words of God himself..

[CryingFreeman]

']yes i totaly believe that but Muslims believe or are meant to believe that they are the very words of God himself..
exactly... it is the same with christians as well
then what happens is that people with personal agendas use this to get people to do what they want or what they think should be done, resulting in religous conflict the world over

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

we believe that it's the word of God simply for one reason. It hasn't been changed since it was reviled to Prophet Mohammed not a singal word is changed plus, there are things that that relate to modern discoveries. heck there is a whole sura that talks about how a spirm develops into a fetus and then into a human being. I mean this has been for 1400 years it mentions things that that are discoverd in our modern era. Anyways we are not here to talk about... if things are right or wrong coz every one has his on things to believe in. and its a good thing that we are sharing these things with each other... it gives me a Good idea about how other people think of the world. It's really Good. keep it on.

[Mikeyprime]

']yes i totaly believe that but Muslims believe or are meant to believe that they are the very words of God himself..
You sound very bent on portraying the muslims as mindless killing machines in the defense of their religion....sound familiar?

The crusades
The romans
Spanish Inquisiton
Spanish colonization of Latin American indiginous countries

the list can go on and on. All religion kills in the right of its religion. Further. we are supposed to believe that the book we are devoting our lives to is written by the god we worship otherwise, why do i care what some random guy wrote?

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

Guys this topic was about something else.. and it turns out we are taliking about something not related, but anyways Go on. Let see what we finiish at?
Coz it's kind of like testing for myself. I mean if i'm gonna explode on someone. kinda like Testing my opening theme of the topic which is forgiveness. :)

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

we believe that it's the word of God simply for one reason. It hasn't been changed since it was reviled to Prophet Mohammed not a singal word is changed plus, there are things that that relate to modern discoveries. heck there is a whole sura that talks about how a spirm develops into a fetus and then into a human being. I mean this has been for 1400 years it mentions things that that are discoverd in our modern era. Anyways we are not here to talk about... if things are right or wrong coz every one has his on things to believe in. and its a good thing that we are sharing these things with each other... it gives me a Good idea about how other people think of the world. It's really Good. keep it on.
My dear friend, something that has not been Changed since it was written makes it no more the word of god than the words of Aristotle, Plato or even George bush, who may remain unchanged yet neither decrease or increase in validity through their permenance...

Greek physicians who lived far earlier than the prophet mohammad knew that Sperm developed into feotus's .. foetus itself is a greek word, meaning "young one"...

In fact, Buddha who lived in 500BC, formulated theories and made statements than paralled those of none other than Albert Einstein ...

According to general relativity, the concept of space detached from any physical content does not exist.
-Einstein
If there is only empty space, with no suns nor planets in it, then space loses its substantiality.
-Buddha



"Institutionalized religions succeed in dominating masses and shedding so much blood, because they make people believe they need it.
When people place their faith in something else, they lose faith in themselves. Organized religion tries to make us see that it has the answers and we do not; it tries to make us accept its answers without giving us the space for individual questioning. Through the Ages, religion has tried to prevent us to think, feel, and go back to our Source within. Religion does not want us to think because it is afraid we may come up with different answers. It makes us doubt our own Self and our own ability to think straight. However, if one cannot accept one's own thoughts without doubt, how can one not doubt new ideas about God which the very process of religion has given her or him? This is the great paradox that has led us to doubt the very existence of Truth or God!
'When we are living by our intuitive knowing, we may not have God or Truth all figured out, but we know it is here. It is religion , which has created agnostics.
If one clearly looks at what religion has done, one must assume religion has no God. For it is religion which has filled the hearts of men with fear of god, where once man loved That Which Is in all its splendor.
It is religion, which has ordered men to bow down before god, where once man rose up in joyful outreach.
It is religion, which has burdened man with worries about God's wrath, where once man sought God to lighten his burden.
It is religion, which has told man to be ashamed of his body and its most natural functions, where once man celebrated those functions as the greatest gift of life.
It is religions, which have taught us that we must have an intermediary in order to reach God, where once we thought ourselves to be reaching God by the simple living of our lives in goodness and truth.
And it is religion which commanded humans to adore God, where once humans adored God because it was impossible not to.
Everywhere religion has gone it has created dis-unity - which is the opposite of God . Religion has separated man from God, man from man, man from woman - some religions actually telling man that he is above woman, even as it claims God is above man - thus setting the stage for the greatest travesties ever foisted upon half the human race.
I tell you this: God is not above man, and man is not above woman - that is not the ?natural order of things?- but it is the way everyone who had power (namely, men) wished it was when they formed their male-worship religions; systematically editing out half the material from their final version of the 'holy scriptures' and twisting the rest to fit the mold of their male model of the world. It is religion which insists to this very day that women are somehow second-class spiritual citizens, somehow not 'suited' to teach the Word of God or minister the people.
I tell you this: every single one of you is a priest; there is no one person or class of peoples more 'suited' do to My work than any other. But so many men, just like our nations, are power hungry. They do not like to share power, but merely exercise it. And they have constructed the same kind of God. A power hungry God. A God who does not like to share power but merely exercise it.
Yet I tell you this: God's greatest gift is the sharing of God's power.'

Seeking answers within, empowers our Self. Keeping this in our heart, let us try to imagine what the lives our ancestors may have been like and what elements might have contributed to bring about religious beliefs and sentiments."

[Utotin]

This is unrelated , but kuwaiti-kendoka, I enjoy your posts. You seem like a good guy. Although some times you posts make me scratch my head in confusion, you seem very honest & sincere. Keep it up!

[KenShi_JoB]

Not all religion kills for their right. I'm not going to be disrespect for the other religion too, so I will not said about the other religion. Buddhism (not-including Chinese and Japanese version that seem to mutate somehow by combining with their own national theology and seem to allow killing.) does not allow killing and many enlighten monk died without fighting the unbelieve murder. The Lord Buddha is forbid us to insult any other religion. Just tell what we believe but do not force anyone to believe. Lord Buddha is not god, but normal human being and we can all enlighten like him. Buddhism is about individual enlightenment. Please do not said all religion kill if you do not know all the religions.




You sound very bent on portraying the muslims as mindless killing machines in the defense of their religion....sound familiar?

The crusades
The romans
Spanish Inquisiton
Spanish colonization of Latin American indiginous countries

the list can go on and on. All religion kills in the right of its religion. Further. we are supposed to believe that the book we are devoting our lives to is written by the god we worship otherwise, why do i care what some random guy wrote?

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Although.. Buddhism, displays more the charecteristics of a Philosophy than a religion, which is why i think it is much stronger, logically speaking than all other world religions

[Hisham]

To [Kensei 剣の聖者]']
I dunno what does agression means to you but i thought i was clear,
I'm not going to repeat myself, and i will refrain from critisizing what you believe in in this thread or this board but you certainly have issues my friend, it might be due to how you were exposed to islam, anyway i'm not here to analyze your psyche so just out of respect for the initiator of this thread stop changing the subject please.

[don quixote]

Just remember that reading the old testament of the bible you will find stories, sayings etc not a bit less harsh than the 'worst' quotes you have given from the Koran.

It is certainly true that all people are similar in basic ways. The differences are superficial and should not be so very improtant if people were not afraid of each other.

'people are the same
whereever you go
allways the same f'''ed up traits
that they show-'

[mingshi]

"Religion... is the opium of the people.."

- Karl Marx

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

Never knew that this topic could go for three pages i really thank you all for this.

Oh about our friend Kensei. it's good thing that you told me what you think and i thank you for your post.... no thank you all for showing me the things that you believe in.

One more thing....Utotin
"lthough some times you posts make me scratch my head in confusion"
Maybe i'm from another planet or Maybe i'm just like a psycho... but anyways It is you guys that i should really thank for every singal ward in this thread.
thank you.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Never knew that this topic could go for three pages i really thank you all for this.

Oh about our friend Kensei. it's good thing that you told me what you think and i thank you for your post.... no thank you all for showing me the things that you believe in.

One more thing....Utotin
"lthough some times you posts make me scratch my head in confusion"
Maybe i'm from another planet or Maybe i'm just like a psycho... but anyways It is you guys that i should really thank for every singal ward in this thread.
thank you.

thanks for your sincerity,, i appreciate everyones opinions and i dont really want to attack points of view, just coming from the point of view of peace, i condemn violent aspects that mite come up in the religion, but i certainly dont have anything against muslims myself..

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

I know Kensei, but i want this to happen in real life. I mean people i killing each other not realizing that they have so much incommon between them.
I know " just a man with stupid dreams" If i want peace and most of the people call me stupid. Then heck i'm an "Moron, freak ..........ect"

[Hisham]

I know " just a man with stupid dreams" If i want peace and most of the people call me stupid. Then heck i'm an "Moron, freak ..........ect"
I guess we're registered in the same club hehe, but as John said "you may say i'm a dreamer but i'm not the only one"

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

Yeah i really like this song Dude... except it was a Bon jovi version of the song,but still it's the same..... Like who is John..... Hey is that a Shinai i see or am i just imagining things. :)

[Anjin-san]

Have you considered that killing, conflict, violence etc are just a natural part of human behaviour?

We've been killing each other forever, on bigger and bigger scales, and civillians have always been caught in the crossfire, geneva convention or no, in all religions.

I guess its also natural to not like war too, and post threads about not liking war in your favourite Kendo message board...

Because if it was anything more than a statement in passing, just chiming in with everyone else, you'd sell your bougu, your house, your car, and use the money to go somewhere and do aid work for the rest of your life. If you actually backed up any of what you're saying about how terrible war is and how the world needs changing, you're implying that you're the kind of person that would be involved in that change. This is a bit harsh, but I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make.

I hate to go all negative, you all know I'm usually happy-go-lucky, but talking about war doesn't solve anything. It winds me up a little bit when people state views without any action behind them. If someon says 'I should really do Kendo, Kendo is so amazing, it can do so much for me' wouldn't it annoy you if they never actually DID kendo?

[Hisham]

Have you considered that killing, conflict, violence etc are just a natural part of human behaviour?

We've been killing each other forever, on bigger and bigger scales, and civillians have always been caught in the crossfire, geneva convention or no, in all religions.

I guess its also natural to not like war too, and post threads about not liking war in your favourite Kendo message board...

Because if it was anything more than a statement in passing, just chiming in with everyone else, you'd sell your bougu, your house, your car, and use the money to go somewhere and do aid work for the rest of your life. If you actually backed up any of what you're saying about how terrible war is and how the world needs changing, you're implying that you're the kind of person that would be involved in that change. This is a bit harsh, but I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make.

I hate to go all negative, you all know I'm usually happy-go-lucky, but talking about war doesn't solve anything. It winds me up a little bit when people state views without any action behind them. If someon says 'I should really do Kendo, Kendo is so amazing, it can do so much for me' wouldn't it annoy you if they never actually DID kendo?
I do understand your point, and i do think that on one hand the extreme individualism and materialism which is the trend nowadays makes it hard for the people that talk the talk to walk the walk, but on the other hand IMHO even if it's only talking ,it prooves if you're honest about what you're saying that you're fighting your own demons which is one hell of an accomplishment by the standards of today, at least you're alert to the fact that we on this planet are part of one big family, being human's not granted IMHO it's a life effort, you gotta help yourself to be able to help others starting with the people closer to you, a positve wave which wil have a dominos effect, natural socialism if everybody gets into it :D. Yeah parctice what you preach is definetly the best way to give the exemple not dictatorship but you gotta have a relatively disciplined mind to do that.

[Light Samurai]

I find it amusing you all hate war... I don't. War is a human nessecity. "Peace never brings change... war does." - Light Samurai. :p

[Hisham]

I find it amusing you all hate war... I don't. War is a human nessecity. "Peace never brings change... war does." - Light Samurai. :p
Been there when i was your age :D

[Light Samurai]

Yeah, well. War= good. But I'm sure it'll change. like alot of things eventually will :)

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

theres a huge gap between what people practice and what they preach , honestly were all slaves of materialism , opinion, money, and security.. personaly there is a huge clash between my ideals/principles and my actions but its one that i try to bridge through educationa and practice,,,,
And its not a naive dream to want peace, and
Light samurai im afraid ur highly disillusioned about the mechanics of humanity, Men like Ghandi have defeated empires with non-violence,

"We will not strike a blow, but we will receive them. And through our pain we will make them see their injustice, and it will hurt -- as all fighting hurts"


indeed many say like Anjin-san that it is only natural to fight and war is a natural process, but as rational animals it is well within our capability to rise above such actions, Rousseau (french revolutionary thinker) stated that:

"The passing from the state of nature to civil society produces a remarkable change in man; it puts justice as a rule of conduct in the place of instinct and gives actions moral quality. It is only when duty has taken the place of physical impulse, and right that of desire then a man can act on princple.

Although in civil society man surrenders some of the advantages that belong to the state of nature (eg, the right to kill as he pleases, steal etc) he gains in return far greater ones; such as civil liberty, protection under law, and right of property...

Moral freedom alone makes man a master of himself, for to be totaly free and governed only by appetite is slavery itself, while obedience to reason prescribes to oneself freedom"

Thus it is clear than in a society where reason rules there is no need for war.. and when there are unreasonable people around, how are we to deal with them? Wage war against them? No, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind - "hatred can not be ceased by hatred, only by love"
simple as that

[Hisham]

Kensei, Light Samurai althouhgh a 14 year old reacted well by saying :"But I'm sure it'll change. like alot of things eventually will :)"

[Anjin-san]

indeed many say like Anjin-san that it is only natural to fight and war is a natural process, but as rational animals it is well within our capability to rise above such actions I'm sorry... whats a rational animal? And what criteria are you using to judge what actions we rise above?

I'm pretty sure the only time human beings will unite together as one will be against a common enemy. Which basically means when the aliens attack. And then in 100 years time we'll have 'Kendo Milky Way Forums' members saying 'All sentient life forms are the same, why can't we all just get along?'.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

I'm sorry... whats a rational animal? And what criteria are you using to judge what actions we rise above?

I'm pretty sure the only time human beings will unite together as one will be against a common enemy. Which basically means when the aliens attack. And then in 100 years time we'll have 'Kendo Milky Way Forums' members saying 'All sentient life forms are the same, why can't we all just get along?'.


Well by rational animal , and i think i explained it well there already, i mean someone who is capable of ethical/moral reasoning- Aristotle would say that
the capacities for practical and theoretical logic make us rational animals,
How does this differ from other species? Other species dont really have a developes sense of rational capabilities. While animals are able to express pleasure and pain by their cries, humans and only humans possess, speech which enables them to make judgments of what is beneficial and harmful, right and wrong (human capacity for practical judgment).

The Philosopher Vico would go on to say that what makes us rational animals is our ability to "reason metaphorically"

"man is instinctively and charecteristicaly poetic in his response to the world, which informs his responses to his environment and casts them in form of a "metaphics", of metaphor, symbol, myth or story - the apparently ludicrous and fanciful acounts of creation are thus cognitive responses to the world, They constitute a way of coping with reality, one which animals do not display"

And the criteria i am using is simple, humanity has waged countless wars, countless people have been killed, countless amounts of blood have been shed and immense suffering has been inflicted upon my BY man, these are the actions which through logic and compassion we can rise above.

[Light Samurai]

']


Well by rational animal , and i think i explained it well there already, i mean someone who is capable of ethical/moral reasoning- Aristotle would say that
the capacities for practical and theoretical logic make us rational animals,
How does this differ from other species? Other species dont really have a developes sense of rational capabilities. While animals are able to express pleasure and pain by their cries, humans and only humans possess, speech which enables them to make judgments of what is beneficial and harmful, right and wrong (human capacity for practical judgment).

The Philosopher Vico would go on to say that what makes us rational animals is our ability to "reason metaphorically"

"man is instinctively and charecteristicaly poetic in his response to the world, which informs his responses to his environment and casts them in form of a "metaphics", of metaphor, symbol, myth or story - the apparently ludicrous and fanciful acounts of creation are thus cognitive responses to the world, They constitute a way of coping with reality, one which animals do not display"

And the criteria i am using is simple, humanity has waged countless wars, countless people have been killed, countless amounts of blood have been shed and immense suffering has been inflicted upon my BY man, these are the actions which through logic and compassion we can rise above.

Of course, language is just vocalization, and some animals do it a different way.. who knows if they are talking? Some birds us movements as signals to other birds, and if they can do that, they might be capable of animal "speech".

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

i was talking of language as a form of cognitive expression, we know from studying animal brains that there cognitive abilities do not match ours and are thus not able to think rationaly as we do...

plus logic and reasoning are mutualy exclusive from language, language is a mere example of how we put them to use

[Anjin-san]

deleted this post

[kendokamax]

Yeah, well. War= good. But I'm sure it'll change. like alot of things eventually will :)

war = good!? maybe as long as you or any family/friends aren't part of it....?!

[Light Samurai]

If my friends and family are in it, I hope they'd have a quick and honorable death >) Not really. It's good as long as there not in it :)

[kendokamax]

I agree with the 'humans are all the same"

I dont have that much life experience .. but while living in Japan I couldnt resist but to come to the conclusion that there wasnt much difference between a Japanese person or a Canadian person....we all pretty much live with all the same everyday emotions...differences are all on the surface.. the more close you get ..the more things are similar..

It's like, the difference between me and miyazaki masahiro. We both do kendo, from the exterior we might seem quite different since he is a numerous time All Japan champion and I'm just an amateur. but i'm sure he thinks the same way I do towards kendo sometimes... like 'damn my do sucks..'

[KenShi_JoB]

I find it amusing you all hate war... I don't. War is a human nessecity. "Peace never brings change... war does." - Light Samurai. :p
Then join the army and go to war, kid(when you old enough ofcourse). Tell me what you feel when you come back. You don't know shit about horrible of the real war. Too much movie I think.

[mingshi]

If my friends and family are in it, I hope they'd have a quick and honorable death... Not really. It's good as long as there not in it...#*&##@%&!!
What kind of selfish mental masturbation is this?!?! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

Looking at all the pervious post made me think of the future. No i'm not a perfect person no one is, but i've seen war heck my country was stolen and i hated iraq at a time. Then i came to something that really made sad why do they have to suffer why do people in israel, Palistain, and every part in the world have to suffer. I can't stop it no one can, but i'm hoping if i teach my children not to hate then i guess this will all stop. Yeah i'm pertty wak and living in a wolrd of my own. I just wanna keep my faith in something. i never wanted this topic to be about war i just wanted to see if there is some people out there that give a damn about about how they really look a like. If you ask me about any War i would just say " i dont care if it starts or not i just want it to go away to disappear".

[CryingFreeman]

War is not good, it is a direct result of people refusing to compromise and refusing settle, and refusing to repect other people and accept them as people with the same right to live and co exist on earth.

when will we realise its not the race thats important
its the species

Anjin-san
you have a point when you say talking about war doesnt help, but i think you underestimate the effects this kind of debate brings about, by talking we share ideas and begin to develop what will become a common understanding between ourselves on the nature of war, we talk to our friends, they talk to their friends like the movie Pay it Forward the ideas will filter out from person to person, the effects may not be immediate or as rewarding as providing aid in war torn countries, but it is not nothing

events witnessed,experienced or exposed to in any way or form lead to contemplation
contemplation leads to formation of ideas
ideas become thoughts
thoughts become words
words become actions
actions become habits
habits determine character

we may just be talking but slowly we will be approaching the same "page" as everyone else, there is probably no one reading this thread that wont go away without knowing or at least thinking about the needlessness of war
and in twenty to thirty years who knows what positions people would be in where they can make a difference.

We could be doing more but i believe we are doing something, and i think this is the idea that Kuwaiti-kendoka had in mind when he started this thread

[CryingFreeman]

Looking at all the pervious post made me think of the future. No i'm not a perfect person no one is, but i've seen war heck my country was stolen and i hated iraq at a time. Then i came to something that really made sad why do they have to suffer why do people in israel, Palistain, and every part in the world have to suffer. I can't stop it no one can, but i'm hoping if i teach my children not to hate then i guess this will all stop. Yeah i'm pertty wak and living in a wolrd of my own. I just wanna keep my faith in something. i never wanted this topic to be about war i just wanted to see if there is some people out there that give a damn about about how they really look a like. If you ask me about any War i would just say " i dont care if it starts or not i just want it to go away to disappear".
This is exactly what i'm talking about, you will teach your kids and you will have influence on your friends and they will have influence on their kids and friends and family and so on.

With the advent of the internet the power of debate can have a much greater impact on the world we live in, in a way that was impossible before

i will teach my kids and i will talk to my friends, i

i am a realist not an idealist

but i believe that war is on its way out

[nalogg]

']Im not anti muslim, im from a muslim family/country and i respect the 99% percent of peaceloving , nice , respectable , moral muslims in the world
but if they were to follow the Koran word for word they would not be So.
I feel the same way about those who take the christian bible word for word.

[nalogg]

Because if it was anything more than a statement in passing, just chiming in with everyone else, you'd sell your bougu, your house, your car, and use the money to go somewhere and do aid work for the rest of your life. If you actually backed up any of what you're saying about how terrible war is and how the world needs changing, you're implying that you're the kind of person that would be involved in that change. This is a bit harsh, but I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make.

I understand what you're saying, and everybody is guilty of "too much talk"... myself included.

However you're wrong if you think that choosing to liquidate all your assets and pick up shop to go help out in a 3rd world country is the only way you can be "against war" or feel any empathy for people's suffering.

that's a little extreme, but a good point.

[Anjin-san]

However you're wrong if you think that choosing to liquidate all your assets and pick up shop to go help out in a 3rd world country is the only way you can be "against war" or feel any empathy for people's suffering. I agree with you there. I'm not going to bother saying 'that was just an example' because you already get that.




njin-san
you have a point when you say talking about war doesnt help, but i think you underestimate the effects this kind of debate brings about, by talking we share ideas and begin to develop what will become a common understanding between ourselves on the nature of war, we talk to our friends, they talk to their friends like the movie Pay it Forward the ideas will filter out from person to person, the effects may not be immediate or as rewarding as providing aid in war torn countries, but it is not nothing

events witnessed,experienced or exposed to in any way or form lead to contemplation
contemplation leads to formation of ideas
ideas become thoughts
thoughts become words
words become actions
actions become habits
habits determine character

we may just be talking but slowly we will be approaching the same "page" as everyone else, there is probably no one reading this thread that wont go away without knowing or at least thinking about the needlessness of war
and in twenty to thirty years who knows what positions people would be in where they can make a difference.
sorry, this is quite hostile, but I'm not attacking you guys, k:wink:

Sure feeling empathy is great. I feel terrible about war <kid gets blown up in x third world country> Really, it affects me deep down. <kid gets a bullet in the face in y third world country> I think I should raise awareness <child raped in z third world country> and make sure that everyone understands that war is needless. And sure enough, slowly <child mamed in some other war-torn country> I'm sure we can all come to the agreement that war is needless together.


This is not some abstract far off concept. At a rough guess, by now (4 in the afternoon) maybe five, ten,people have died horrific, violent deaths today. Most likely RIGHT NOW someone is dying from a bullet wound.

Its possible that I've missed the point of this thread, I'll agree. The kind of empathy I'm talking about is a very real, very visceral one. Its kind of like going past the site of a car accident and saying

you guys: 'man people shouldn't drive fast, I guess we should get to work convincing myself and everyone else to drive slow, in 20 or 30 years time we'll all be driving slow!'

me:'dude, that kids flown through the windshield, and his dads about to bleed to death, wtf are you talking about, I'm calling an ambulance'

and both have their place.

[Anjin-san]

If my friends and family are in it, I hope they'd have a quick and honorable death >) Not really. It's good as long as there not in it :)
Yeah man, you sound like you'd really enjoy war. Go join the army man, it sounds perfect for you... the infantry even!

If you ever get shot in the ass, scream my name.

[nalogg]

me:'dude, that kids flown through the windshield, and his dads about to bleed to death, wtf are you talking about, I'm calling an ambulance'
Well put!
it's just unfortunate that this is not as simple as calling an ambulance.
I wish it was.
I think one of the problems is that we truly are confused about what we can do, so we sit and talk about stuff like this and fool ourselves into thinking that the talk is helping someone.

[CryingFreeman]

Its kind of like going past the site of a car accident and saying

you guys: 'man people shouldn't drive fast, I guess we should get to work convincing myself and everyone else to drive slow, in 20 or 30 years time we'll all be driving slow!'

me:'dude, that kids flown through the windshield, and his dads about to bleed to death, wtf are you talking about, I'm calling an ambulance'

and both have their place.
good analogy

consider your point taken

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

im sorry but people like buddha and ghandi and martin luther king and probably every philosopher known to man fought with words and ideas not actions...
1 book written by Aristotle 2500 years ago, The Nichomocean Ethics, has laid down a grounding for societies ethical conduct for centuries to come.. he didnt necessarily sell all of his posestion and go and give aid to people in need of help, he was very rich in fact
but his ideas and words can still change the world
so what were doing isnt futile

[Light Samurai]

Yeah man, you sound like you'd really enjoy war. Go join the army man, it sounds perfect for you... the infantry even!

If you ever get shot in the ass, scream my name.Nah, I look old style war. If this was the 1600's-1700's, gove me a katana, and I'm out to war! hehe.

[KenShi_JoB]

Nah, I look old style war. If this was the 1600's-1700's, gove me a katana, and I'm out to war! hehe.
I think 14 year olds should be more grow up than this.

[Light Samurai]

never said I did grow up. :p

[kendokamax]

I think 14 year olds should be more grow up than this.

meh some 40 years old still think like that

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

War = good?

some politicians still think llike that
hint hint Bush

[Anjin-san]

Kensei, I'm sorry but a lot of the stuff your mentioning is pretty weak. Ghandhi, Buddha and King did take action, otherwise you wouldn't know about them! The thing that links these men together is that they had strong beleifs and they acted on them, with or without violence.

Furthermore I did say 'both have their place'. If you put the two together, talking together, having strong, well thought out beleifs with solid moral grounding, AND you take action thats when you can create REAL change, as King, Ghandhi and Buddha all did.

Its just that we, as in me you and the other people who post here, have a lot of the beleifs and not much of the action, and thats what I was pointing out in my original post.

So we're not actually disagreeing on anything bro... :beard:

[Light Samurai]

']War = good?

some politicians still think llike that
hint hint BushAs much as I dislike them both, Bush is better then Kerry. But Kerry has is strong points. ANYWAY. Let's all assume Bush didn't use war. Sadam probalby would be out of power... maybe. he was a lunatic. him and bush wouild get along afterawhile.. :p

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

you need to read, books and catch up on current affairs

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

Oh sorry to stick my nose, but wasn't this about how we look a like rather than How we dont???????? and whats with you guys blowing it out on this 14 year old kid. He is thinking about anime stuff and how to be a hero. I guess he will change when he becomes older , so give him a break. I agree word Do change people in a way we don't know. It happened to me.
Sorry about being rude, but i had to say something.
Words do need actions to become true.

[Wout]

Why do peaple wage war? well that's a relatively easy question.

Because they they have a reason to fight a war, wheter you as a bystander think it's good/bad doesn't matter, if they decide to go to war for it it's good enough for them, not in a normative sense but in a practical sense.
But I think that most wars are started are because of the underestimation of the humanitarian and also economic costs of a war and a total negligence of the costs of the people that are not involved actively in a war but only passively (as in the victims by plundering, collateral, hunger, lack of primary resources) and the costs for the enemy. This gives a war the characteristic that it objectively has little total payoff compared to the costs.

Taking a case that is in my mind one of the most rightious war in modern time WW2. True you could consider the war AGAINST nazi-germany as a good war, it doesn't take a way the fact that the whole war itself that Hitler started was a total mistake with only tremendous costs.


Bush is right when he wants a short clean war with as little victims as possible, unfortunatly it's a fallacy of technology that such a war exists beyond the mind of strategists.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

well not if u consider the facts

the second world war started because Europe wanted to humiliate Germany after the first world war so they imposed 6 billion Dollar reparations, French militarised part of Germany (rhineland) and excluded germany from the leauge of nations.. and if u take a bottom up view of history u realise that hyperinflation in germany, poverty and a combination of social factors led to ppeople reverting to either Communism and Facism and radical ideas and sought to label someone with the Blame.. thus Hitler came as a product of German frustration and thus the second world war was caused, if u look at the dialectic of history u realise that u cant just say "we fought the germans in world war 2 and it was a just war against them thus war is just" you have to tackle root causes and realise it wouldnt have hapened in the first place if we hadnt spread the seeds of dis satisfaction

[Ursamajor]

I'm sick and tired of Europeans blaming/condemning the actions of my President. Yeah, he's not perfect, but those such as Kensei from London who give long historical anedotes of the rise of Hitler's Germany and the "Just war of WWII" fail to mention what happened after his rise to power in 1933. Why? Maybe it has relevance with what the USA and a handful of others are doing now. PREVENTION---or in simplistic terms: Cutting the head off the snake before he bites you bad.

You see, the rest of the story of the beginning of the second world war involves a handful of large, post imperialist nations that had made themselves sick with their losses monetarily, geographically, and population in World War One. Idealists arose and took power of ideas after the war. They thought they could end all war by demilitarization and appeasement of smaller, aggresive countries. They ignored the the first inklings of what was to come.
The UK, Holland and the USA ignored the Japanese while they raped Nanking in 1937, and began their incursions into China. PM Chamberlain, the French, and others ignored Italy's bid to take Ethiopia. They paid lip service while Hitler "annexed" Austria, Czecholoslovakia, and even the invasion of Poland (dubbed the "phony war") in 1939. They knew of Hitler's anti-semetic tendencies and denied many Jews visas. They had talks with Germans and scolded them, but believed appeasement would work. Did it? How many MILLIONS died due to this idealistic arrogance?
Now, its the same thing all over again. The USA and its allies take out a Dictator that threatened destabilization of the vital Middle East, and was known to cavort with terrorist organizations (including providing martyr funds to Palestinians). Yet a majority of Europeans yell, fabricate lies, and have the ignorance to say that my President and my country are murderers/an evil on the world, while they do nothing. They think appeasement works, yet in their own recent history, this has been a disastrous mistake.
I'm sure a response to this post will be vile, but that is ok. I am secure in the knowledge of history and of the actions of my country. We are not a perfect nation; none are. But we are cutting off the heads of snakes through out the world----you're welcome world.

[Hisham]

WW2 , who why where and Dubya aren't the subject of this thread. Your posts would be more at home at the flames section.

[Infinity]

and this thread goes on......

[CryingFreeman]

The actions of the europeans after world war 1 was not one of appeasement as you try to put it, they simply did not have the means or the political backing at the time to take action. If they did it might be a different story.

it obvious you love your country but you need to realise that every country is looking out for itself, these so called snakes your killing off are more of a threat to your own country than any other. true your killing them off before they become strong enough to take you on, this is just good planning, but this way you can pretend your doing it for the good of others than yourselves, which isnt quite true.

condemnation for your president comes from all over the world not just europe but so does support for him, so dont take it so personally
anyway thats not really the issue in this thread

its more about the fact that we are all the same regardless of religion, race etc.

i'm sure you agree on this right?

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

This post is not about War please understand this point. What we have so far is blame blame and more blame what is done has been done. It's not like we hold a magic stick in our hands. Please fellow human beings talk about the things we have incommon and stop this thing about who is right or who is wrong. This is not a War topic fellow kendokas it's about having respect for each other...... thats all i'm asking. :(

[Hisham]

Long ago i've read an article in science&vie (a french mag) on how people of different ethnic backgrounds can be alike genetically speaking asside of what makes us all humans of course.
There's also the fact that it's better to look for your other half as far as you can from "your imediate genetic pool", we all know the problems royal families have :D.
I dunno about you but mixing has some pretty good results IMO, look at Hally berry :silly:

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

Dude you hit the spot man WOF WOF WOF.... Man o man o man o man.

Ahem just kidding. Yet it is so true Hisham

[mingshi]

The USA and its allies take out a Dictator that threatened destabilization of the vital Middle East, and was known to cavort with terrorist organizations (including providing martyr funds to Palestinians)... Blah blah...
Dear Mr President:

When are you removing President Kim of North Korea?

How about Pakistan's A.Q. Khan who is trafficking WMD (Nuclear to be exact)?

Worried,
Mingshi Wan

[Hisham]

Dude you hit the spot man WOF WOF WOF.... Man o man o man o man.

Ahem just kidding. Yet it is so true Hisham
I m telling you man, places where the mixing has occured have more beautiful and healthy people than anywhere else.
I admire guys who go for inter-ethnic marriage not an easy feat with all the cultural differences and all.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

The actions of the europeans after world war 1 was not one of appeasement as you try to put it, they simply did not have the means or the political backing at the time to take action. If they did it might be a different story.

Thank you, someone is the voice of reason around here... the so called "appeasemant" was in effect the British buying time for large scale re-armament and mobilisation of troops, the great powers by no means Idealistic, they all recognised threats from countries such as Germany and Japan , they only waited till quite late because they wanted to use war as a last resort (the memory of world war one was stilll relatively fresh in these peoples minds) and they thought that the leauge of nations could work if there was more commitment from member countires , but unfortuanately they were merely incompetent, not idealistic.. countries like germany and italy made military pacts secretly behind the back of the leauge and basicly self interest took over the place of reason and justice and everything went awry

Secondly george bush is a certified idiot, im sorry someone has to say it.. if the usa was pursuing a policy of prevention it would have prevented 1million dead in rwanda, millions dead in cambodia, comapred to places like Sierra Leone, Uzbekistan (worst human rights record ON EARTH) and Congo iraq was a paradise, OK IRAQ WAS NOT A PARADISE BUT NOT THE TOP PRIORITY FOR SPREADING Justice , helping humanity, preventing conflict, you see?
Sierra leone doesnt have operational hospitals.. the government is corrupt and takes everyones money
IN uzbekistan one person disapears almost daily!?
OK iraq was a undemcratic dictatorship but so Is EVERY GODAMN COUNTRY IN THE MIDDLE EAST ... lets see, Saudi Arabia is somewhere were they behead people in the squares, where women cant drive and are banned from many walks of life,
things were not this bad in Iraq...
(once again i think sadam was evil man , and his country was in a desperate state but not THE MOST desperate state)
BUT Iraqs oil wasnt open to america because of sadams defiance
Saudi arabias was
Simple as that
for christs sake north korea was thought to have nukes at least 5 years ago but the US wouldnt touch them because they pose a greater military threat than Iraq, they went for the soft option, a country which had a small group of republican guards who basicly all gave up and now comprise of iraqs police force
Sadam didnt fund terrorists nor was he a terrorists he was just a evil dictator and u cant find those everywere in the world (MUGABE!?!? Englands politicians shake his hand to this day!)
anyway, none of this crap was what Georgey porgey told us
he said weapns this weapons that 45 minutes blah blah blah
what did we find? sum stupid scientist in a run down laborotry with a note saying "I WANT TO BUILD A CHEMICAL WEAPON"
wow, even i cud do that, they shud start a war on London then..
by the way, George clinton bombed a milk factory in baghdad on the night of his impeachment.... tlk about good timing

[Ursamajor]

Thank you, someone is the voice of reason around here... the so called "appeasemant" was in effect the British buying time for large scale re-armament and mobilisation of troops,....ad nauseum.

So sorry about the spelling errors, but then again I guess I'm just a stupid american.
Your train of thought concerning history of your own country is quite deluded. On the eve of WWII(1939), the UK had 50 full strength army divisions; 12 deployed in France. It's main battle tank(the Matilda) was more powerful than anything the germans had at the time, plus all of its divisions enjoyed mechanical transportation(only 88% of german divisions were motorized), and rapid deployment via the best navy in the world. It had 157 air squadrons, which, with its allies, were superior to Germany's luftwaffe.
France too had a larger army than Germany, had the most modern--albiet wasteful, defensive fortifications, and the best main battle tank of its time (the CHAR B-1).
Yet after the Munich accords(no-no, bad Germany) in 1938, Chamberlain said "There is peace in our time." Hitler then went on to take the Sudentland---if that was not "appeasement" I don't what the term means.
When Poland was invaded, France and the UK did nothing for her own ally except wait, even though they had greater and better troop concentrations in France.
Secondly;
Your response to my President is typically liberal---name calling.
Third.
Another typically liberal response to the Bush doctrine of the spread of freedom throughout the world. Under those tenets, we should invade every corrupt country. This, of course, is ludicrous. Iraq is a vital strategic and economic target for the 1st world. Nations protect THEIR INTERESTS TO SURVIVE AND PROSPER---this is political theory 101 stuff.
Horrible things happen through out the world, why haven't the "noble", altrustic countries of Northern Europe went out there and fixed them?----they have power and influence. Oh yeah, they rely on the U.N., and what a great bunch they are. The latest scandal is that French and Russian troops deployed in Africa have been running slave porno rings that involve African children.
Why didn't Europe deal with the unraveling of Yugoslavia? Oh, that's right, the USA finally intervened even though we are over 2000 MILES AWAY.
Then again, Europe whined and moaned when Reagan deployed cruise missiles in West Germany. "The sky is falling" could be heard from here in the middle of the USA. But what happened, in part, due to his unwavering stance with the USSR---it's downfall.
Rwanda happened under the Clinton administration. The Clinton administration also allowed the N. Koreans to continue building their reactor, and "solved" the problem by sending Jimmy Carter over to talk to them.
The Bush adminstration now has to deal with them, and is, diplomatically or by the sword. WMD's or not, the ousting of one Dictator is better than having him stay in power. I'm sure the evil dictators in Sierra Leone and Uzbekistan are on the list---the USA and the 1st world sure needs mongol ponies, caviar, and tamarind in large supplies.
Perhaps Europe could deal with them----better not. They would f%$k things up again and start WWIII.
I apologize to those who are involved in the real thread. Any further comments will be placed in the "flames" thread.

[Anjin-san]

How about Pakistan's A.Q. Khan who is trafficking WMD (Nuclear to be exact)?
Easy now, thats my mums second cousing you're talking about...

I'm dead serious

Ali

[Anjin-san]

He's actually cooperating with the US now... giving them information on exactly what he sold to whom...

I'm liable to lose a family member or two if the US decides to aim its gunships in that direction, so you understand my concern.

[El Gringo]

Damn this thread has got very heated.

On the topic of WWI it was named 'the war to end all wars' and going by the human races track record since then i think that its a bit naive to think that war is on its way out.

During the build up of WWII the major powers of the world did appease Hitler, they may have had enough military power to deal with him, but they did not want to fight since WWI had happen so recently. The idea behind the appeasement was that Hitler would conquer a few smaller countries, be happy with his new 'empire' and then settle down.

The only reason why Britain got involved with this was because of a treaty that they had with Poland, after Hitler invaded they had to attack him because of this.

The whole issue with Bush is a severe mess, his policies are very self-centred, as was mentioned before, however he does not give this as his reason, this war against terror is a complete cover to aid his own cause, to make money.

If your going to deal with terror maybe you should go to Saudi Arabia since thats where most of the 'head terrorists' come from (a large percentage of the people involved in 9/11 were from Saudi) take Mr Bin Laden for example. As well as this Saudi has one of the worst human rights records in the world (people still having their hands cut off for stealing) so why not try to deal with them? Oh yeah I fergot, because they have A LOT of money invested in America and they supply America with A LOT of oil. So instead Bush redirects his view towards a small country that his daddy failed to take over, which is, while pretty bad, nowhere near as bad as Saudi/ north Korea, but you wouldnt want to go there because their armies might actually fire back at your troops.

Im gonna stop now as this has turned into a political rant. Sorry, but I just had to say something about this.

[CryingFreeman]

ok no more politics on this thread

[nalogg]

ok no more politics on this thread
good call!
i'll end it off with a joke.

(no offense to blondes but there is no other way to word this joke)

Jessica simpson is sitting doing a puzzle.
and she asks her husband Nick, "I'm having some trouble, could you come help?"
"sure" he says, "what is it supposed to be?"
"According to the box it's supposed to be a puzzle of a tiger. I have all the pieces laid out but none of them seem to fit.", she says.
Nick walks over takes a look at the pieces, picks up the box and calmly says, "Alright.. we're going to go make a nice cup of tea and calm down a little... and then we're going to put all the frosted flakes back in the box."

[Light Samurai]

that. was so funny! thanks for sharing that!

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Your response to my President is typically liberal---name callingerm how is that a logical attack on my argument?



Under those tenets, we should invade every corrupt country
No your taking my argument to the extreme and thus twisting it..
i said we should prioritise , and there were places with far more need for intervention than Iraq.. and stop using this term invade, spreding freedom through war is a paradox, you just cant do it, the only reasonable way , i believe to stop a dictator is through widespread civil disobedience

neway

"When the government archives were opened after the war it became apparent that Britain's run down defence capability left few alternatives but appeasement"

"The Americans were determined to be isolationist. France did not want war. And Britain could not fight Germany alone"

"Appeasement was justified by the interaction between the factors of a poorly equipped military that had to provide a global defence for all of Britain's territories, an anti-war mindset among the population, and economic circumstances that pointed to the avoidance of a large-scale conflict"

"Matters at the time were not as clear-cut as we see them nowadays. German propaganda claimed that Germans in the Sudetenland and Poland were being mistreated and thus invasion was justified"
-lets not forget Sudetenland was actualy a part of germany

"The critical factor was that Chamberlain was not a dictator with the right to start a war if he pleased. He could not go to war without the support of the people – and until 1939 most people wanted peace, almost at any price."


"Britain could never have won the Second World War with doubt on the home front. Appeasement meant that, when Chamberlain did eventually declare war, the British people went to war knowing that they had done everything in their power AND MORE to keep the peace. And that knowledge helped to keep them going through six years of total war."

"The bombing of Guernica during the Spanish Civil War showed what German bombers could do to Britain if there was a war- the last thing Britian wanted was a repeat of world war one"

"In the 1930s, Britain was in the middle of the greatest economic depression ever known. The policy of appeasement was the only policy Britain could afford."

wow seems like alot of people share my deluded view
i guess we can all be deluded together?
sorry ur not invited

[Anjin-san]

If your going to deal with terror maybe you should go to Saudi Arabia since thats where most of the 'head terrorists' come from (a large percentage of the people involved in 9/11 were from Saudi) take Mr Bin Laden for example. As well as this Saudi has one of the worst human rights records in the world (people still having their hands cut off for stealing) so why not try to deal with them? I'm not an advocate for either side, but if the US attacked Saudi... every (even slightly serious) muslim on EARTH would rise up. That would trigger WW3. I'd have to move out because my parents would expect ME to go to war.

[El Gringo]

I'm not an advocate for either side, but if the US attacked Saudi... every (even slightly serious) muslim on EARTH would rise up. That would trigger WW3. I'd have to move out because my parents would expect ME to go to war. That is a fair point, but my post was more along the lines of an example of which to set against the actual actions of the Bush regime rather than a proper suggestion.

The fact that Bush attacked Iraq points to weakness in the American state, they had to show their people that they were doing something against terror, so chose and easy target.

[Anjin-san]

Understood and agreed.

I'm going to rant for a while, I'm slightly intoxicated... :) I speak better in metaphors so here goes.

My point of view is you can't tell the biggest kid in the playground(George) what to do no matter how stupid he is. He could still eat you for breakfast, no matter how smart you are.

Say this big kid bullies these other kids for their lunch money, and once in a while these kids stand up to him individually. They play pranks on him every so often. They don't have a leader as such, but the big kids got some idea of the general group of kids that are pulling this stuff on him.

No one can call George out for an honourable, mano a mano fist fight. He's simply too big to take one on one. The ONLY way these kids can get back, for all the shit they go through is to play these pranks on him. I'm not justifying said pranks, they're horrific, but so is Georges bullying.

There was some rule written in Geneva about not hitting each other in certain places, but there's no referee for anyones fights to ENFORCE said rules.

One day one of the kids (Osama) pulls a prank that is completely out of order, even though he's been doing stuff just as bad over a long term to the other kids since forever. So bigkid goes on a rampage and beats the crap out of all of Osamas friends in this hood called Afghanistan.

He then figures, since he's on a roll he'll beat the crap out of some other rich kid (Saddam) for his lunch money, he's had a fight with this kid before but didn't quite finish him off, this time he wanted to inflict some real damage and knock some sense into him, and fair enough this kid was a bit of an asshole, but that didn't stop George from taking the lunch money.

So what to DO about this great big menacing bully?

options:

Tell the teacher... THE KID IS BIGGER THAN ALL THE TEACHERS

or

Get ALL of our buddies together and kick the crap out of him once and for all... I'm talking like a pan Eurasian-American War... like oh, let me see, what could we call it... world war 3? We can yell 'Hey, bush is an ass' all we want. He will reply with 'What are you going to do about it?'

OR

Avoid him best we can until he grows old and weak (economically) and moves out of the way so the other kids can play. To be fair to old Georgy, the chances are some other kid will end up being the biggest kid in the playground and this will run its course all over again.

I think People like Tony and Musharraf have gone with option two here, at the expense of going against public opinion in supposedly democratic countries, they've done their level best to appease George out of a combination of fear and a hope for some kind of benefit by association.

The anti-american (and anti-semetic) sentiment is in the air as you land in Karachi. All of my relatives except for my parents (who I talked some sense into) have long convuluted theories of why jews are evil and are plotting to take over the world and kill all the muslims. In the UK the media have drummed up the anti-american stuff as much as the mullahs in the mosques in pakistan.

My view is pessimistic, almost anarchaic... but seriously what do you expect Bush to do... say 'ok guys, I'll admit, I was mean to kill all those people, I'm gonna go sit in a corner, give all the oil to third world countries and start worrying about global warming'... somehow, I don't think so...

OK done ranting. By the way I don't hold any grudges against americans or anything. They're super cool and the chicks are generally much more fun.

[LNGUYEN]

The World is a F.ck up place where we have a lot of big mouths and very little actions

Middle East: many extrem Islam groups reside. The only thing they think about is how to convert the others to Islam by using any nessecary means even violence. They can blow up themselves thinking this is for Muslim and they will be reward in heaven with many virgins waitting for them (oh yeah, virgins are like rewards, prize, not human and virgins were made ready to use in the factory, imported from China for lower cost. I wonder what happen to those girls after become women :) Are they still useful upthere? or they will be refurbished to wait for the next suicide bomber). Middle East also has a lot of oil where they control the limit of production to raise the price and get richer in the name of global warming.

Europe: where people think they are more noble and civilize than other groups, they think they flourished with richer culture and enjoy more comfortable lives. They like meetings so everytime there are crisis somewhere, they gather for meeting, and protest against the violences by raising their voices (the gentlement way). After that, nothing happen next, no actions. they love foods, nice house, go to the museum, and when their neighbor in trouble (Yugoslavia) they raised their hand to their heart and said : oh my God, too terrible, no action. (No sh.t). Especially, they like to watch :Farenheit 11, and believe everything in it.

Africa: The land had been exploited to death by the European colonized. Now they have been exploited by their own leader, who are hungry for power, money, and fighting. They don't give a dam about their people, famine, and healthcare. They keep rely on aid and keep thinking they are still the victim. Everytime they don't agree to each other, they fight.

Asia: Once was a battle field for all other big boy to show their muscles. Now people love to hear communist propaganda to the point they throw away their freedom and love to being control by communist. Now it is ok to live with just enough foods and no freedom. They love to be called cheap labor.

North America: USA the blame for everything happen in the Worlds. It is expected to help and to control all the problem in the Worlds with its money, people, but by the European way. Its president is always stupid according to European because he didn't follow the European way. Canada: thinking they are part of Europe, not America. they want to live like European, walk and talk like them. should we consider Canada as European?

[KenShi_JoB]

The World is a F.ck up place where we have a lot of big mouths and very little actions

Middle East: many extrem Islam groups reside. The only thing they think about is how to convert the others to Islam by using any nessecary means even violence. They can blow up themselves thinking this is for Muslim and they will be reward in heaven with many virgins waitting for them (oh yeah, virgins are like rewards, prize, not human and virgins were made ready to use in the factory, imported from China for lower cost. I wonder what happen to those girls after become women :) Are they still useful upthere? or they will be refurbished to wait for the next suicide bomber). Middle East also has a lot of oil where they control the limit of production to raise the price and get richer in the name of global warming.

Europe: where people think they are more noble and civilize than other groups, they think they flourished with richer culture and enjoy more comfortable lives. They like meetings so everytime there are crisis somewhere, they gather for meeting, and protest against the violences by raising their voices (the gentlement way). After that, nothing happen next, no actions. they love foods, nice house, go to the museum, and when their neighbor in trouble (Yugoslavia) they raised their hand to their heart and said : oh my God, too terrible, no action. (No sh.t). Especially, they like to watch :Farenheit 11, and believe everything in it.

Africa: The land had been exploited to death by the European colonized. Now they have been exploited by their own leader, who are hungry for power, money, and fighting. They don't give a dam about their people, famine, and healthcare. They keep rely on aid and keep thinking they are still the victim. Everytime they don't agree to each other, they fight.

Asia: Once was a battle field for all other big boy to show their muscles. Now people love to hear communist propaganda to the point they throw away their freedom and love to being control by communist. Now it is ok to live with just enough foods and no freedom. They love to be called cheap labor.

North America: USA the blame for everything happen in the Worlds. It is expected to help and to control all the problem in the Worlds with its money, people, but by the European way. Its president is always stupid according to European because he didn't follow the European way. Canada: thinking they are part of Europe, not America. they want to live like European, walk and talk like them. should we consider Canada as European?
I don't think there are many asia country that are communist, and we do not expect usa to help and to control all the problem in the Worlds with its money, people. IMHO sometime usa interfere too much. No offence really. Many people outside USA may have different ideal from usa but it does not wrong. To believe that only american democratic Ideal is right is a little bit selfish.

[MINAMOTO YOSHI]

I spend a great deal of time wondering about the current world situation and what can be done to resolve these problems. Only recently i've realised that the world CAN'T be fixed anymore. We are simply to deeply commited to our sins that we have got ourselves seriously Mucked up. As long as there is a single human being in the living world then there will always be evil.

Although there is one way to avoid it all. To seek refuge from modern society and become more peaceful yourself. Even something as simple as holding the door open for someone makes you feel happy. Become a better person and you will know that you have done all you can for the world.

Peace.
Joshua

[nalogg]

aw man, i though we closed this thread already....


is this just your way of telling me you want to hear another joke?

SO BE IT!!!

-
A dinosaur walks into a pub and says, "ROARRRR GIVE ME A BEER!"
the bartender says, "sorry we don't serve dinosaurs!"
so the dinosaur grabs the closest waitress and devours her.
"ROARRRRR I SAID GIMMIE A BEER!" says the dinosaur.
the bartender says, "Sorry, we don't serve drug addicts"
"What do you mean? I'm not a drug addict!" replies the dinosaur
and the bartender says, "Yes you are! That was a Barbituate!"

ps: 700th post!!!!!

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

yeah no world leaders are just going to admit they were wrong and undo their mistakes and make sincere apologies, i think change from the inside is no longer possible, the system is too corrupt to be changed from within, society needs a new framework based on morality rather than Capital

[Hisham]

Hey Nalogg, i think that some people already put us on there ignore list including the starter of this thread lol

Anyway keep on posting jokes untill we see who's gonna have the last post in this hijacked thread :grin:

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

I WILL HAVE THE LAST SAY IN THIS THREAD OR MY NAME IS SHISH KABAB :)
lol talking about Going crazy.