Dumb Newbie Thoughts

[Old Warrior]

After 2 months of training, I don't even have armor yet. But, I've been reading all I can in anticipation of the day when I will be ready. My dumb question for the day is - what is the point of visual focus.

I am a good epee fencer with 15 years experience/training. I always cast a loose gaze on my opponents chest. I have found that you can be faked with head or hand movement but the chest only moves when the adversary has begun his commitment to movement. If you have sense of the precise distance you will always have "a feel" for your opponents body movement. Since one can never be hit if the distance is not closed this seems to work.

Will the same approach work in Kendo bouting?

[JSchmidt]

Sort of. I believe the original teaching is to look at the eyes, but take in the whole person.
I take this as meaning look in direction of the eyes, but you have to focus on a point behind the person, in order to see the whole body...works for me, anyway :).

Jakob

[hamish]

Maybe Yamaoka Tesshu (famous Meiji era swordsman) wrote that you should look at your opponent's fists (while seeing the rest of them, and the surroundings) because if you look at the eyes, you might get overpowered by their spirit.

Other swordsmen talked about looking at different places as well, so its not really where you look, but how, and I think the way you describe your gaze in fencing fits very well with kendo.

Hamish

[Old Warrior]

One (of many) concerns that I have is the restricted target area. I wouldn't want to be thought of as a "dirty" or "heavy handed" beginner. Until the target limitations become automatic it requires conscious thought both for defense and offense - which has to make one (at the outset) slow and awkward.

In epee, there are no limitations and the most common target is the sword arm or if the opponent's blade point can be moved offline, the torso. Of course, anything you can hit is fair game and many touches are scored on unintended targets due to parries. Since it doesn't take much pressure to set the point, after impact you can "release" and you get not credit for good form.

But in Kendo you have to convince the judge of the accuracy of the hit, form, power, spirit etc. It strikes me as a worthy challenge that is not met easily.

[nodachi]

I was told the same thing as Batman, I mean Jakob.

And I am new to Kendo as well, but the limited targets and the issue of getting a convincing hit are one of the things I really like. It makes it a quite a bit harder, and since you have to get a convincing hit to get a point, it saves me from the frustration of losing to lucky/half hearted hits or accidents. That would really get to me if I lost to someone who didn't intent on hitting and by dumb luck got a point. I want the opponent to know they got the point, and not give the shinpan a blank stare and say "huh, I won???".

[munenmuso]

Well, Musashi talked about the importance of Kan and Ken. Kan means the observation of the physical phenomena happening within the field of vision, in kendo during lighting moves, it's hard to observe/react from these phenomena or sudden burst of attack especially if you don't have fast eye-and-hand coordination or your opponent is just simply too fast for you to react. But Ken, seeing through the eyes of the opponent, helps you to anticipate these lightning moves even before it happens. This allows you to react or counteract, free from conciousness, even from a considerable distance.

So the usual visual focus in Kendo is in the eyes to avoid those fake moves or bluffs.

[mingshi]

I check their eyebrows.
People move their eyebrows when they lie :D
But anyway you can sense things without even looking, right? :D

[AlexM]

My sensei was telling us that during long fights experienced people can tell when you're going to move by your breathing (once your breathing becomes heavier). They see the "men flaps" moving up and down (while looking at the entire body): I think when they stop moving (i.e. the attacker starts holding his breath in anticipation or takes one last big inhale before the final effort) they sense the attack is coming. It's all about body language.

Just don't do what I do; which is look at the person's kote or dou before going for it.

[ben]

Alex has a good point. The purpose of observing the opponent's breathing pattern is that the inward breath represents a dead moment. A strong physical action can only be made on an outward breath. So very experienced kendoka learn to use their opponent's breathing as an indicator of their inner rhythm. Of the three datotsu no kikai (opportunity for scoring) this is "okosu no tokoro" (lit. 'moment of awakening').

OW: I think you will find your appreciation of distance, timing and rhythm from fencing will be very applicable in your kendo. The only difference here is that in kendo the body is taught to move from the hara/abdomen/centre of gravity rather than the chest.

b

[munenmuso]

That is very true. Most kendoka when stressed or tired breath heavily and it's most obvious with the pattern of the shoulder but isn't it that there are also kendoka, usually high-ranked, who practice their breathing method through their hara, as in breathing during meditation, where the breathing is done through the diaphragm. So the shoulders are not sometimes indicative of an obvious meditated attack and it's hard to tell also if these kendoka are showing signs of fatigue or when their next attack would be.

[kendokamax]

well even if they are tired or whatever, it seems very difficult to be able to predict when someone will attack by just their respiration. This is stuff for hachi-dan and up hehe, I have trouble to imagine how someone could be that good to do that.....must be super mushin!!!!!

[nodachi]

Sometimes at practice when other people are in practice matches, I will try and watch for this. It is not impossible to SEE, although the transition from the breathing clue to their attack is so quick that it is damn near impossible to REACT. Of course, when watching I only have to worry about looking at that one thing. I can't look for it in a match because I am preoccupied by so many other things. If only I was that good...sniff sniff...

Maybe in 40 years...

[kendokamax]

ya of course I meant it's hard to react to it....I think even my father (he never played kendo, but knows about miyazaki haha) could see it. but just to catch the good moment...really it surpass me, I want to see someone do that against me..in japan maybe?

[Steve]

In most books you'll read, you are told to use the eyes of the opponent as a focus for looking at the rest of their body. Your peripheral vision is much more sensitive to movement than your forward vision; you'll notice them move sooner by using it. In a less technical point, many people look to their intended target before they strike.

[laurien]

Originally posted by Steve
In most books you'll read, you are told to use the eyes of the opponent as a focus for looking at the rest of their body.

Yeah, this thread reminds me of the instruction:

"Watch your opponent as if gazing at a distant mountain."

Err, something like that. Can someone tell me where it comes from? I cannay remember. :(

laurien

[ben]

Enzan no metsuke - far mountain gaze. A term to describe a way of looking at the whole of your opponent rather than isolated details. Personally I don't find the eyes a good place to look because it is too easy to become caught up in the eyes.

There is an interesting passage in the Taiaki of the priest Takuan Soho that goes: "The enemy does not see me. I do not see the enemy." The commentary then explains the meaning of this:

"The 'me' of 'the enemy does not see me' refers to my True Self. Thus I say, 'The enemy does not see me.'
"'I do not see the enemy': Because I do not take the personal view of the perceived self, I do not see the martial art of the enemy's perceived self. Although I say 'I do not see the enemy', this does not mean I do not see the enemy standing right before my very eyes. To be able to see the one without the other is a singular thing."

Takuan then goes on to describe the concept of the True Self as it occurs in Buddhism. Even though Takuan here was writing for the instruction of one (or two?) of the most accomplished swordsmen of all time (Yagyu Munenori and/or Ono Tadaaki) and the level of his insights are appropriately rarified, I still think it is possible for modern kendoka to take something from this.

For me perceived self = what kind of bogu my opponent is wearing, what kind of shinai they use, whether their hakama is new with a lot of kanji on the back or old with hardly any, what I have heard and/or know about their prowess, etc, etc. True Self = what I actually discover about them and/or myself during keiko.

b

[Steve]

Very deep. Here's my simple explanation of Metsuke. If you look at a point directly (say on a mountain peak), you only see that point. If you use that point just as a focus for your eyes, you can view the entire mountain range. Again, physically you want to make use of your sensitive peripheral vision.

Bruce Lee said it best in "Enter the Dragon" when he told his student to look at the moon in the sky. After giving him a quick slap he says "don't just look at the moon, or you'll miss all the heavenly glory". Cheesy and cliche, but its the same concept in this discussion. Go rent the Classic Bruce Lee movie and watch it for yourself...its a lot cooler when he says it! ;-)

[scbang]

Old warrior, let me first congratulate you in saying
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But in Kendo you have to convince the judge of the accuracy of the hit, form, power, spirit etc. It strikes me as a worthy challenge that is not met easily.
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This is pretty good one to say for someone who's been practicing only for (2) months.

Anyway, Enzan no Metske is somthing to learn over the years but here's something I've observed over the years..

1. Do not look at your target before you hit - Not only you give away your target but also you're not looking at your opponent during this period - making yourself vulnerable.
2. Try not to look at the eyes - Not only it's hard to see their eyes behind Men Gane but also human eyes have weird effect on you.
3. Do not look at any specific area of concerns ( place you don't want to hit or suddenly rasised shinai of your opponent )

In short, it's best if you can look thru the opponent ( Looking at the far mountain - the title of Kata book I'm reading - is the description of Enzan no Metske ) but if you can't, try to look at the opponent as a whole. My eyes are normally aimed at the nose ( there is normally nothing interesting movement there ) but my focus - at least I'm trying - is everywhere else.

Does this make sense?

[Old Warrior]

"Does this make sense?"

Sure it does. But, I wonder if some aspects of the art are subject to over analysis. I can't begin to know the essence of what makes some practitioners "great", but I doubt it is really subject to being conveyed in words.

I believe I can feel the movement of an opponent in an epee bout. Unfortunately, I'm too old to make my body move as fast as I would like. They say it takes two lifetimes to become a "great" fencer. One lifetime is spent learning the techniques, but by the time they are mastered - the body is too old to perform them.

The difficulty in learning Kendo is its attraction. Everything is a challenge to learn, let alone to do it well. At my age (54), the one shortcut I allow myself is to try and learn as much as I can about the techniques; while I practice them. Since the target areas in Kendo are limited and all the strikes are required to be performed from the centerline the focus is obviously more limited than that required in karate or in epee (where the entire body is a target and the number and angle of attacks virtually unlimited).

My original inquiry was serious but obviously overly simplistic. It just struck me that since there were so many limitations in both target and attack that there might be a consensus on where ones gaze is centered. I seem to have concluded from my experience with other martial arts that this is a subject that has a different meaning to differing levels of mastery. I'll never live long enough to be good enough or will my vision be sharp enough to see some of the nuances pointed out in this thread. It will be an interesting journey.

[Steve]

Thats one of the great things about kendo, you can play it at almost any age! A friend of mine went to Japan, and had the pleasure of being in a dojo where an 84 year old sensei visited. He could barely move on his own, and had to have his bogu tied onto him. As soon as he stood up onto the floor, and a shinai was placed in his hands, he would assume a rock-solid chudan no kamae.

He defeated the ENTIRE dojo in a consecuitve line up, from unranked to the dojo sensei's. The best part was, he used the same waza ON EVERY PERSON, for every point!

He would purposely skew his chudan to open his kote, very very slowly. this caused each person, one after the other, to make the same mistake...attack his kote. he then made a small hiraki-ashi step to his left and preformed a kaeshi-men. EVERY TIME. everyone saw in plain view each person get hit by this, and yet each person after wards fell for it.

The moral of the story is, youth is not the key to being good at kendo nor is it required. diligent practice is all you need, and a drive to learn.

[scbang]

Old warrior - you're only a few years beyond me so stop saying you're old cause I'm not..
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I'll never live long enough to be good enough or will my vision be sharp enough to see some of the nuances pointed out in this thread. It will be an interesting journey.
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I beg to differ in certain points. As Steve points out there are many ways to win but also winning isn't really a point, is it?

Also, I'm beginning to think that my sharp vision is hidrance than help in Kendo. A small fake movement need to be ignored.

There are some articles pointing out that 7th or 8th Dan can read your mind. If you think about Debana Waza, scientifically, it doesn't make any sense. One already started to move, and he's just as fast as you are, there's no way you can start later and hit him faster. However, we all know Debana Waza is very successful one being used all the time. So, we must be moving before the opponent started to move. Does it mean I read opponent's mind?
Or simply, we're sensing something without seeing it..(??)

My 76 year old sensei is very slow yet I have hard time hitting him good. Keep your hopes up Old Warrior, you still have 26 years to practice Kendo and become as good as my sensei.
If you don't miss any promotion, it only takes sixteen years to become 6th dan :-)

Cheers for your surely interesting journey.. I am enjoying it a lot.

[Cary Y. Mizobe]

In Kendo, there is a philosophy called 'enzan no metsuke', "gazing at a distant mountain." To focus solely at the mountain would only serve to isolate the mountain. The mouintain would be all that you could see. You would not able to see what lay BETWEEN you and the mountain. There might be a beautiful meadow filled with brightly colored flowers. Within that meadow might be birds and animals. To focus only on the distant mountain is to miss all of this.
The same can be said of 'metsuke' (point of observation) in Kendo. From the beginning of our "journey" in Kendo, we are taught to focus on our opponent's face or eyes. But to focus solely on these areas is to limit ourselves. We need to see the "big picture".
Focus on the face or eyes, but be able to observe your entire opponent. Be able to see everything about him/her. Be aware of their body, arms, hands, legs, and feet and ANY movement of same. If you cannot see movement, you cannot react to movement. This is the key to such techniques as 'debana waza'.
I was fortunate enough to practice a few times with All Japan Kendo Championship legend, Masahiro Miyazaki-sensei when he came to visit Los Angeles a few years ago. He was incredible! One moment, he was standing in front of me. The next moment, it was like "Beam me up, Scotty." It seemed like he just disappeared. During this infinitesimal moment, I felt my men being struck and then saw Miyazaki-sensei "re-materialize" behind me. I couldn't figure out how time and again he was able to do this. I wasn't tired, so I knew that he couldn't be watching my chest rise. A thought finally occurred to me. No, it couldn't be. Could he be watching my eyes? Believe it or not, Miyazaki-sensei was timing my eye blinks! As my eyes began to blink, he would launch his attack. By the time my eyes closed and opened, "the fat lady had sung" and it was all over! This is 'metsuke' taken to the nth degree!
These two are extreme examples. If you can train your 'metsuke' to be somewhere in the middle, you will be well in the game.

With kiai :^{ )

Mizobe-sensei

[Old Warrior]

Thank you Mizobe-sensei for your thoughts.

In 1969, I met Tomasaburo Okano, the Head of Nippon Karatedo Kenkojuku. He was on a US tour of his federation dojos. He stood with his back just in front of a wall (hands in a loose fist at about waist level) and required every student to assume a fighting stance directly in front of him and attempt to hit him in the chest with a reverse punch. I was green belt, 20 years old, and while my karate had much to improve - I was very fast. In those days I could punch holes in half a sheet of suspended newspaper without tearing it and putting out candles with the vacuum from a reverse puch was simple stuff. I was warned that I had better give it everything I had. Not a single person, from 2nd Dan to me, was able to hit that man, who stood directly in front and whose only defense was the timing of his hip rotation so your punch sailed by his chest. He knew when you were coming before you had commited to the movement

He then reversed the roles; except he stood 3 feet in front of you so he would have to take a step to hit you. But for his control he would have stacked us up like cordwood. He could move without the slightest hint that he was coming.

His final demonstration was to put a watermelon on the back of a student who was kneeling on all fours. He unsheathed a katana, stood perpendicular to the melon, raised the katana above his head and in a single stroke sliced it completely through without touching the terrified student. I'll be honest - I was scared watching.

My interest in this thread, recognizing that god-like skill is possessed, by a very rare few, was a mortals' basic inquiry. I have seen someone who could move as if the laws of nature and gravity did not apply. I'll settle for modest skill and the privilege work on improvement.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The watermelon thing is an old trick. You can do it with a iaito, and you needn't cut all the way through.

[munenmuso]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
The watermelon thing is an old trick. You can do it with a iaito, and you needn't cut all the way through.

I agree. I don't do iaido but I have an iaito which is not sharpened. Did that already with my sword it's so easy cause the fruit is soft and fragile. In fact, while the sword cut passed the center of the watermelon, you can twist the sword slightly to totally break the fruit in half. Not sharpened, even if it penetrates the fruit and made slight contact with the skin, it will never cut the host giving the sword the impression that it is sharp and yet the user will look that he had total control with the sword.

[kendokamax]

Personaly I always found these kind of "show off" tricks to be so boring. One of the thing I love the most about kendo is that there is not such things as cutting half apple or run around and break wood with your fist. Maybe it is very impressive to see, but to me it's like a circus show. finds it kinda boring...

[Cary Y. Mizobe]

The "Watermelon Cut" should not be mocked!!! Those of you who have not mastered this 'waza' will be sorry the next time you are attacked by a watermelon!!! Mark my words!!! Of course, I am being totally facetious!

It amazes me that all these so-called "martial arts masters" feel the need to do all this 'chambara' crap! "Flash and slash" is what I call it.

I actually had a guy that my younger brother worked with call and ask me where he could buy a sword. This guy was a so-called Karate "sensei" (a shodan or ni-dan!) who had his own "studio". I asked him what he needed the sword for. He responded, "For competition." I was dumbfounded at first. I asked him if he knew how dangerous a sword (even an iaito) could be in untrained hands. He replied, "Oh, I don't mean a "real" sword. I'm looking for one of those light aluminum ones." Duh!?

Apparently, he planned to compete in what is called the "Showmanship" category. Again, duh!? He informed me that the "Weapons Showmanship" category was also divided into "musical" and "non-musical" divisions. Strange visions of Karateka in multi-colored uniforms, wielding every weapon imaginable, in a can-can "kick line", singing some Broadway musical show tune popped into my head! Apparently, this "category" is common in these so-called "pro" tournaments and is very popular with fans and competitors alike.

Have I been living in a cave? I have "black belts" in Shotokan Karate, Kenpo Karate, Kodokan Judo, and of course Kendo and Iaido. I have never heard of such nonsense! I trained in the "old school" style. If you screwed up at practice, you went home battered, bruised, and hurting! If sensei thought you were "showing off" or trying to throw your weight around, you went home battered, bruised, and hurting. And you could be sure the same thing would happen for at least the next few practices!

This "knuckle-head" invited me to come down to his "dojo". Out of curiosity, I did go to check it out. On every available piece of wall space were autographed pictures of "martial artists"! God knows why. This "sensei" was "in uniform" and was wearing 2 heavy gold chains, rings, and a gold watch. The "uniform" itself had "martial art patches" on the front of the gi and running up and down the sides of both arms and legs! One patch I noticed was one on the front of the gi of the 'kanji' for 'ninpo' (another name for 'ninjitsu'). I asked knuckle-head why he had that patch on his gi; he didn't "teach" ninpo! He said, "Oh, is that what it says? I sewed it on cuz I thought it looked neat." DUH!?

A while back, I recorded a segment from a "reality show" that I still show people/students. It is of a "demonstration" at a Karate "tournament". The voice over states that the "Karate master" is a 9th degree black belt. The "master" steps onto the floor wearing what looks like Kendo keiko gi and hakama. Duh!?
One of his students is his "volunteer". The "master" places a cucumber on his student's bare chest (the student is stretched across two chairs). With no "form" whatsoever, the "master" literally "leans in" (off balance, almost standing on only one foot) and does a "tap-tap" motion with the sharp katana, cutting the cucumber into 3 pieces. In his next "demo", the "master" places another cucumber on his student's throat! When I first saw this program, I shuddered and a chill ran down my spine. The "master" "leans in" again and tap-tap. This time, he doesn't completely cut the cucumber, so he leans in again. Tap-tap. The next thing you saw on the video was a stream of blood running down the student's neck! The student gets up, walks over to the sideline, and collapses. Paramedics rush over to render aid. The "master" shakes his head in disbelief, walks around, and wipes the blood off the sword with his hakama!!!

The day Kendo becomes a "sideshow" like this is the day I commit 'seppuku' (without 'kaishaku'!)!

With kiai :^{ )

Mizobe-sensei

[munenmuso]

Sir, that was a neat story....:D.Those possesed lunatic martial artists.....ha.

I would be impressed if they will do a Musashi: put a grain of rice on somebody's forehead and whack it with all his might and just cut alone that piece of rice without hurting that poor volunteer.. How's that for a show-off..:D

[saki_wooah]

Hmm... Why do they cut vegetables or fruits to show off? A martial art practicionner does martial art, and a cook cuts vegetables and fruits...