Pre-World War II kendo

[Kirsty]

I searched these forums for this, and I couldn't find anything about it so...
I was reading a book on kendo and I came across this...
"..I was already off my guard, but my embarrassment reached its height when I foot-swept my first opponent , grabbed his men, and sat on it. I was about to start the choking procedure when the referees grabbed me under each arm and dragged me off the floor screaming something...Shortly thereafter, we were visited by a delegation from California informing my sensei that what he was teaching was pre-World War II kendo that was no longer acceptable in modern shiai. I received this news happily. My days of hip throws, foot sweeps, and head twisting - at least in Kendo - came virtually to a close."

I also found this on a website...
"In pre- World War II kendo, a 3 shaku 6 sun shinai similar in size to a real sword was used along with aggresive techniques such as choking, leg sweeps, throws and etc.. After the War, modern kendo replaced military style kendo with a focus on personal character development and sports. Modern kendo does not use all of the military kendo sword strikes or techniques."


I found this to be very interesting. Is anyone familiar with the way kendo was taught Pre-World War II?

[Light Samurai]

Wow. I would love to have pre-wprld war kendo... not really. It'd be like Kenjutsu with armor :p

[Pan-Chan]

Wow. I would love to have pre-wprld war kendo... not really. It'd be like Kenjutsu with armor :p

Not really, IMHO. It would seem to be exactly what that book had said, "a military style". Kenjutsu may not be Kendo, but it is still an art, and in some schools it does utilize armor.

It seems to me that pre-World War Kendo was a 'style' that had little underlying principle other than "kill them however". Which would mean that it wasn't actually Kendo. Since just like that quote says, Kendo, modern Kendo, is a way to improve one's self, not a way to learn how to kill someone efficiently.

But that is just my opinion that I have formed from the little knowledge I have on pre-World War Kendo. ^^;

I think I will be doing quite a bit of research on this topic, though.

[ISSAC RU]

There is a few video called " pre-war Kata''
If you are interested to see what ''kendo'' life was back then..

[Twobitmage]

I remember talking to a retired kendoist who said that back in the day the strikes used to be more like cuts, and that modern kendo is more like tapping.

[Musha]

When I came to Japan last month and started kendo the teacher said I should stike the guy imagining I was cutting to the sholders. My men doesn't fit and when we do kiri-kaeshi it really herts! :D.
This made me think, kendo isn't a save calm martial art like Tai-chi form practice. We don't wear armor so we can feel more comfortable when we practice. We wear armor so we can do things that are not possible without it. Cut with nice cuts but people like you are going to kill them and really mean it.

Maybe I'm too old for it now but if you do some thing really stupid in Japan the teacher is going to tsuki mune you to the ground or smack you on the head.

I've heard there are some people who still practice that type of grappling kendo. I guess it would make kendo way too hard if we added judo to it but it still sounds fun :D.

[nebosuke]

I have also heard that if you were to have your shinai knocked out of your hand, you had a very breif time to throw your kote at your opponent as if it were a shuriken.

[dnakase]

I have also heard that if you were to have your shinai knocked out of your hand, you had a very breif time to throw your kote at your opponent as if it were a shuriken.
WHAT?

Your kidding right?

[not-I]

Some of the pre-war grappling and rough stuff (like forcing an opponent to the ground and removing his men) is still practiced in many Japanese police dojos. There are a lot of crazy stories.

[Banza Joe]

I have also heard that if you were to have your shinai knocked out of your hand, you had a very breif time to throw your kote at your opponent as if it were a shuriken.

Lol.... sounds like handbags at dawn!
I doubt that a kote would impale your opponent. If its true, i would imagine there is a specific meaning behind this.

[nalogg]

From what I understand it was just like today's kendo but you could do anything else to intimidate your opponent, force him to move or throw him out of bounds ,including techniques akin to aikido, karate, and jujitsu.

We have a pre-war sensei who tells us all sorts of stories about his crazy kendo antics. For instance after having his shinai knocked out of his hands, he dove under a guy's legs and tripped him.

[Halcyon]

Some of the pre-war grappling and rough stuff (like forcing an opponent to the ground and removing his men) is still practiced in many Japanese police dojos. There are a lot of crazy stories. Not just in Japan. Happens once in a while at our dojo too, but only to the more senior and/or hardy students who can take it. It usually happens at the tail end of jigeiko, when it switches over to kakarigeiko. There'll be some pretty intense taiatari, and if you lose your balance and fall ... well, let's just say you better not fall down.

You have to keep in mind that in the context of a traditional dojo, that kind of physical hazing is usually a sign of "affection," for lack of a better word. If a Japanese sensei doesn't give you a hard time, that means he/she doesn't really think it's worth their time to toughen you up yet. If they really put you through your paces, to the point where it might even seem abusive, that's when you know you're making some progress.

[not-I]

Not just in Japan. Happens once in a while at our dojo too [...]
Indeed. At ours too. Having been pushed, knocked down, struck with "headache men" and tsuki-ed to the wall by sensei, i flatter myself by supposing i've been the recipient of his affection.

[Halcyon]

Indeed. At ours too. Having been pushed, knocked down, struck with "headache men" and tsuki-ed to the wall by sensei, i flatter myself by supposing i've been the recipient of his affection. You lucky dog! Teacher's pet!

[not-I]

Teacher's pet!
Perish the thought! Correction: "a recipient."

One of sensei's loaded questions to people is, "Am I too nice to you in ji-geiko?"

[Akai Bushi]

If you loose your shinai in a shiai is it legal to body check your opponent? or is that pre WWII Kendo?

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you lose your shinai, just grab onto your opponent - give him a big hug and show him how much you care. You're going to get hansoku for the shinai anyways, they won't give you a second one for grabbing the opponent. But it will eliminate the possibility of your opponent getting a point.

[KevinF]

good idea Niel - I guess the alternatives are running as fast as possible out of bounds or diving to the floor face-down. :rambo: Or you could run behind the shinpan for protection.

[Light Samurai]

good idea Niel - I guess the alternatives are running as fast as possible out of bounds or diving to the floor face-down. :rambo: Or you could run behind the shinpan for protection. I say, hide behind the shinpan, and then run like heck to yor shinai. I thnik hiding would wprk better against "slower" people. :p they'd look beyind the shinpan "where'd he go?" Actually... a good kendo anime with that scence would be nice...

[KevinF]

Actually, maybe you could just turn around and face away from your opponent until the shinpancho yells "yame." No valid points on your backside...

[Lloromannic]

Actually, maybe you could just turn around and face away from your opponent until the shinpancho yells "yame." No valid points on your backside...
Yeah but if the other has already started his attack you will get hit on the back of the head, and those hurt like hell :dead:

[goh]

actually just yesterday i watched a keiko between sempai and the sensei,and after a men from the sensei the semapi's shinai went fying from his hands.sensei followed it with another men and the sempai dodged to the left and started runing away from the chasing sensei for another 2 seconds or so.so i think you can do that too.

[Neil Gendzwill]

In competition, the match would have halted after that first attempt. You only get one shot at your unarmed or fallen opponent.

[goh]

i think it was more to teach a lesson than actually score a hit

[ben]

I recently interviewed my 84 year old sensei about this very topic. He had some interesting things to say about it.

First of all he said there was no time limit to a match, and no shiaijo boundary, so no jogai rules. There was only one shinpan, a sensei who sat on a chair at the side. The only criteria for ippon was that the sensei-shinpan felt the strike would have been effective if delivered with a sword. The matches of course were ippon shobu. Basically it was very much more simple then. With no jogai rules, no time limit and only one judge, there was no need for what we might nowadays call "transparency" or even "the appearance of consistency". IOW there was no rule book like there is today filled with rules to cover, in some cases, the most obscure and unlikely eventualitites.

Nagae sensei told me of how often-times an engagement with his opponent would lead to multiple techniques and take them all the way across the budokan floor. With no reaction from the sensei/shinpan, both shiaisha would eventually stop (and here I imagine them looking at each other before shrugging their shoulders...:D) and then voluntarily return to a point roughly in front of the sensei (again there were no lines, so no "x-marks-the-spot"). No call of hajime or yame, so they would start again upon mutual agreement. Sometimes, he said, if there was no score for a long time, that would be when the grappling techniques would come out, in which case whoever was able to rip the other's men off (or maybe choke-out their opponent?) would be the winner.

In this kind of kendo I think the shinpan was more like a duellist's second: someone who was there only to make sure there were no heinous violations of etiquette (like one of the two combatants drawing running away), not someone who was there to "run the match".

Nagae sensei said that he remembers competitions between university teams starting in the morning and not finishing until midnight. He also told me that during the war he visited the Toyama Military Academy where his uncle was a kendo instructor. After training with him, Nagae sensei's uncle said his kendo would "never be killing kendo" (Nagae sensei holds shodan in juken-jutsu as taught to all wartime uni students, so he certainly knew killing techniques). When Nagae sensei told me this he gave a hearty laugh. And rightly so. How could his uncle have known that it would be Nagae sensei's more "humane" kendo that would evolve to spread across the globe, and the Toyama Gakko's "killing kendo" that would die out?

b

[Hisham]

Nice post, that just shows one of the things why elders are to be given the respect they're due, a living memory of the past. It reminds of my discussions with my late grandfather about WW2. Man i envy you :D

[Musha]

Nagae sensei said that he remembers competitions between university teams starting in the morning and not finishing until midnight. He also told me that during the war he visited the Toyama Military Academy where his uncle was a kendo instructor. After training with him, Nagae sensei's uncle said his kendo would "never be killing kendo" (Nagae sensei holds shodan in juken-jutsu as taught to all wartime uni students, so he certainly knew killing techniques). When Nagae sensei told me this he gave a hearty laugh. And rightly so. How could his uncle have known that it would be Nagae sensei's more "humane" kendo that would evolve to spread across the globe, and the Toyama Gakko's "killing kendo" that would die out?

My Great grand mother was made to scrub the house with a scrubbing brush and clean the brass all by hand when she was young. She also woke up about 6:30am every week, bought shopping and came to my house which was about 2 hours away by three buses at 84 years old. She went on day trips and walkes around the country too.

Every thing gets easier so people don't have to do much. You young people today :rolleyes:.

[grasshopper_r2]

Ben, Could you do me a small favor and ask Nagae Sensei if he remembers a Kendo teacher named Ishikawa. Ishikawa founded the World Kendo Federation around 1930. I have been doing a lot of research but keep hitting dead ends. I know Ishikawa was from Okinawa and moved to Kyoto to learn Kendo and remaind until after his 8th - ? Dan, he moved to BC and was placed in a Japanese Intern Camp in BC, Canada during WW2, he moved to Hamilton Ontario to a nursing home where he died. One of his students was the late Shitani Masaru (Wado Ryu Karate). I am aware that the name "Ishikawa" in Japan/Okinawa is like "Smith" in the US; but I'm willing to take a stab in the dark for any leads possible. Your time and effortwould be GREATLY appreciated.

[Sepiraph]

First of all he said there was no time limit to a match, and no shiaijo boundary, so no jogai rules. There was only one shinpan, a sensei who sat on a chair at the side. The only criteria for ippon was that the sensei-shinpan felt the strike would have been effective if delivered with a sword. The matches of course were ippon shobu. Basically it was very much more simple then. With no jogai rules, no time limit and only one judge, there was no need for what we might nowadays call "transparency" or even "the appearance of consistency". IOW there was no rule book like there is today filled with rules to cover, in some cases, the most obscure and unlikely eventualitites.

Nagae sensei told me of how often-times an engagement with his opponent would lead to multiple techniques and take them all the way across the budokan floor. With no reaction from the sensei/shinpan, both shiaisha would eventually stop (and here I imagine them looking at each other before shrugging their shoulders...:D) and then voluntarily return to a point roughly in front of the sensei (again there were no lines, so no "x-marks-the-spot"). No call of hajime or yame, so they would start again upon mutual agreement. Sometimes, he said, if there was no score for a long time, that would be when the grappling techniques would come out, in which case whoever was able to rip the other's men off (or maybe choke-out their opponent?) would be the winner.

That's very interesting, it is nice to know that Kendo was actually simpler then and more realistic. I heard that also in pre-war Kendo, everywhere on your body is a valid target with no artificial rules on valid target area.

I think that's the way Kendo should be, but without the grappling/choking or taking off opponent's men. For practical reason, they should add a time limit for matches.

[KenShi_JoB]

That's very interesting, it is nice to know that Kendo was actually simpler then and more realistic. I heard that also in pre-war Kendo, everywhere on your body is a valid target with no artificial rules on valid target area.

I think that's the way Kendo should be, but without the grappling/choking or taking off opponent's men. For practical reason, they should add a time limit for matches.

Hmmm, I'm not sure about war-time kendo, or military kendo on Toyama gakko, but I watch the video of Tenranjiai, a shiai that compete in front of the emperor in 1929,1930 and 1940. I'm pretty sure that the valid targets is the same as modern kendo(in FJ normal book(1905), he also describe the same set of targets, and in this tenran vdo, jukenjutsu also use limit targets). They used a sambon-shobu match like today and I think they have time limit. I do not see any grappling, but I think it is because the high-level of shiai-sha, they weren't allow themselves to fall into that situation. I do see only one attepmt to do unsuccessful ashi-barai(leg sweep). and at one of hanshi-level match, when both shiai-sha were in tsubazeriai position, one of them try to push the other's hands down with tsukagashira but the othere used left hand to grap the pushing tsuka, no hansoku.

That's only a few time something cannot be done in modern kendo,happen. Most of the time when in tsubazeriai they just quickly seperate with hikiwaza.

The main different I see in this video is ,IMHO, the attitude of the kendoka. they do not rush in to jump in to attack like we see very often in AJKC. Consequently, there was also less tsubazriai. Maybe because the nasty things can happen in tsubazeriai those day.

And AFAIK the pre-modern kendo are not the same for the whole time. Pre-war kendo and wartime kendo were different too. In 1930s-1940s(militaristic period), much more emphaize on rougher aspect(grappling, sweeping, choking, etc.) and one big finish cut(the word is kiru-cut, in the earlier time butokukai use the same word as today kendo, yukodatotsu). Shinai were also shorter(to be the same lenght as gunto). To prepare for a war,IOW they do killing kendo.

[ChaShu]

actually just yesterday i watched a keiko between sempai and the sensei,and after a men from the sensei the semapi's shinai went fying from his hands.sensei followed it with another men and the sempai dodged to the left and started runing away from the chasing sensei for another 2 seconds or so.so i think you can do that too.

Upon losing your shinai, could you (per match rules) grab your opponent's tsuka and try to wrench his/her shinai out of their hands with a hip throw or like you were mauling a rugby ball?

[Sepiraph]

Hmmm, I'm not sure about war-time kendo, or military kendo on Toyama gakko, but I watch the video of Tenranjiai, a shiai that compete in front of the emperor in 1929,1930 and 1940. I'm pretty sure that the valid targets is the same as modern kendo(in FJ normal book(1905), he also describe the same set of targets, and in this tenran vdo, jukenjutsu also use limit targets). They used a sambon-shobu match like today and I think they have time limit. I do not see any grappling, but I think it is because the high-level of shiai-sha, they weren't allow themselves to fall into that situation. I do see only one attepmt to do unsuccessful ashi-barai(leg sweep). and at one of hanshi-level match, when both shiai-sha were in tsubazeriai position, one of them try to push the other's hands down with tsukagashira but the othere used left hand to grap the pushing tsuka, no hansoku.

That's only a few time something cannot be done in modern kendo,happen. Most of the time when in tsubazeriai they just quickly seperate with hikiwaza.

The main different I see in this video is ,IMHO, the attitude of the kendoka. they do not rush in to jump in to attack like we see very often in AJKC. Consequently, there was also less tsubazriai. Maybe because the nasty things can happen in tsubazeriai those day.

And AFAIK the pre-modern kendo are not the same for the whole time. Pre-war kendo and wartime kendo were different too. In 1930s-1940s(militaristic period), much more emphaize on rougher aspect(grappling, sweeping, choking, etc.) and one big finish cut(the word is kiru-cut, in the earlier time butokukai use the same word as today kendo, yukodatotsu). Shinai were also shorter(to be the same lenght as gunto). To prepare for a war,IOW they do killing kendo.

Thanks for the info, but I did recall reading (forgot the source of information) that pre-war Kendo didn't restrict the area that you can hit. I don't know if someone can confirm this.

Also refer to this thread: http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2410, specifically this article: http://www.auskf.info/mainpages/article2.htm

In particularly, I quote from the article on pre-war Kendo:
This was of the utmost importance in controlling the blade when actually cutting in combat. Both men and do cuts were followed by a slicing movement immediately after the shinai made contact, with a concurrent lowering of the hips. In the police dojo ashi-barai (foot sweeping), tai-atari (colliding with the opponent), were routine; as well as the practice of grappling with the opponent and attempting to remove his men (mask) when he dropped his shinai in practice.

This slicing movement is mostly missing in modern Kendo (AFAIK, maybe some dojo teaches this), hence the remark that many Kendoka are not cutting, but hitting. The root of this change is traced back to a ban by the allies, specifically I quote again:

The provost marshall was able to have orders issued prohibiting kendo training for all police. Kendo was reinstated later in that year, but when practice resumed, those elements in kendo which were clearly associated with a real sword, such as the slicing movement after the cut, were not allowed; nor were blows delivered with as much strength as they had been prior to the ban.

Again more on the emphasis of cutting:
Shikake waza was executed as if using a real sword - ozawa (technique with small motions). There was constant and great emphasis on tenouchi (literally "within the hand"), delivering the blows, making the cuts, and the movement of the fingers and wrists, as the shinai is about to strike the men (mask) or do (plastron). In shomen the wrists were rotated even further inward and locked. There was shime (pressure at the instant of impact) for both shomen and do, the strike was completed with a slicing movement with both hands on the hilt, and the hips were lowered. All strikes were made much more strongly than now. In matches the shimpan in denying a men point, would say "Karui. tori-masen'; "light, won't take it".

Anyhow the article was a great-read and shed much light on pre-war Kendo.

[KenShi_JoB]

Thanks for the info, but I did recall reading (forgot the source of information) that pre-war Kendo didn't restrict the area that you can hit. I don't know if someone can confirm this.

I quiet sure that this isn't true at all. Tanran-jiai use the same set of targets as modern kendo. FJ Norman describe the same set of targets. Noma Hisashi describe the same set of targets.

Also refer to this thread: http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2410, specifically this article: http://www.auskf.info/mainpages/article2.htm

In particularly, I quote from the article on pre-war Kendo:


This slicing movement is mostly missing in modern Kendo (AFAIK, maybe some dojo teaches this), hence the remark that many Kendoka are not cutting, but hitting. The root of this change is traced back to a ban by the allies, specifically I quote again:



Again more on the emphasis of cutting:


Anyhow the article was a great-read and shed much light on pre-war Kendo.

I read that article many time over. That's the war-time militaristic kendo I describe in my last post. competitive pre-war kendo is not much different from modern days. I absolutely sure that Tenranjiai compettitors do not use any slice motion.

PS. You don't need to slice in order to cut. Sori of the katana help you to cut automatically if you do it right. the important thing is te-no-uchi.

[Sepiraph]

I quiet sure that this isn't true at all. Tanran-jiai use the same set of targets as modern kendo. FJ Norman describe the same set of targets. Noma Hisashi describe the same set of targets.

I'd still prefer a 3rd party confirmation of this, preferably some links to internet site.

I read that article many time over. That's the war-time militaristic kendo I describe in my last post. competitive pre-war kendo is not much different from modern days. I absolutely sure that Tenranjiai compettitors do not use any slice motion.

PS. You don't need to slice in order to cut. Sori of the katana help you to cut automatically if you do it right. the important thing is te-no-uchi.

Well you are only basing your knowledge from one video, whereas the guy who wrote this article got his information from real experience, has a Ph.D, been to Japan, done pre-war Kendo, and is a 7dan Kendoka.

[KenShi_JoB]

I'd still prefer a 3rd party confirmation of this, preferably some links to internet site.

FJ Norman's book can be purchase through this site. He practice gekken in 1890s for 15 years.

Noma Hisashi's Kendo Reader can be easily download on the internet, just google. He write it in 1930s.

Tenran jiai, you have to buy the DVD. It is the competition before the emperor in 1929 1930 and 1940.

Well you are only basing your knowledge from one video, whereas the guy who wrote this article got his information from real experience, has a Ph.D, been to Japan, done pre-war Kendo, and is a 7dan Kendoka

I never said a thing that indicate Dr.Hazard is wrong. I belive that they do kiru kendo (cutting kendo) at the keishicho back then. He said that ,many of the police kendoka are veteran ex-army, they probably do kiru kendo.

My point is war-time kendo is different from pre-war competitive kendo. Noma Hisashi said that the standard leght of shinai is 3 shaku 8 sun which is the standard set by kobusho (shogunate military academy) back in bakumatsu period. but in war-time they shorten it to the legth of gunto. If you only read what Dr.Hazard said you will think that pre-war kendo always use short shinai ,right?

[Hyaku]

Watching a video of a Tenranjiai of my teachers teacher there is very little mvement of the back leg. Its static and the heel twists 90 degrees leaving the foot at a right angle to the body. Much more emphisis of dropping the hips on the cut. on completion of the cut and a score the there is just a retraction to a more upright position and both feet come to face front again. Very little going through at all. First time I saw this was with some very old kendo teachers. At that time I put the static back leg down to age. But watching a video of a film taken its more of a technique.

The thing is to cut with a sword the old way brings the arm way down past a right angle even cutting to the head only. There is distinct flexibility that allows the kensen to impact rather than stop it. Even older is to stop the cut about a centimtere from the floor. The thing is how much do we want to adapt Kendo to ensure safety to practice without injury? Right now its seems to be drawing away from old technique. Then again when you watch the some of the bends of a shinai in a slowed down video it looks quite strong to me. Kenjutsu, kendo whatever we are only trying to show what would have happened if we had followed through a lot of the time. Just different ways of showing it.

[Sepiraph]

I never said a thing that indicate Dr.Hazard is wrong. I belive that they do kiru kendo (cutting kendo) at the keishicho back then. He said that ,many of the police kendoka are veteran ex-army, they probably do kiru kendo.

My point is war-time kendo is different from pre-war competitive kendo

Point taken. It seems nevertheless that there is some lost of techniques from pre-war Kendo that are closer to Kenjutsu. Specifically since the Allies banned those elements in kendo which were associated with a real sword, such as the slicing movement after the cut.

Thanks KenShi_JoB and Hyaku for your inputs.

[KenShi_JoB]

Point taken. It seems nevertheless that there is some lost of techniques from pre-war Kendo that are closer to Kenjutsu. Specifically since the Allies banned those elements in kendo which were associated with a real sword, such as the slicing movement after the cut.

Thanks KenShi_JoB and Hyaku for your inputs.

Pre-war kendo still have a strong tie to koryu sword schools. Many schools do things differently. Not all of the schools emphasize the slice movement in uchikomigeiko.

The emphasize of slice movement seem to come from militaristic attitude in the war-time more than anything IMHO. You can search on subject about budo investigate by GHQ by google. In the petition from Tokyo university student alumni to resurrect kendo indicate that the military ruin kendo to use it as a tool for militaristic government, and civilian kendo being critic as something like a child play with stick.

In Noma Hisashi's text, small movement, light strike, were all happen in prewar too. In Edo era, Oishi susumu use 4 shaku shinai with emphasize on thrusting. My point is the sportifice of kendo is not a new thing.

I don't think that the technique are lost. IMHO the kendo waza are pretty much the same. I think it is the attitude of the practitioners that change the most.

[Hyaku]

Oishi susumu use 4 shaku shinai with emphasize on thrusting. My point is the sportifice of kendo is not a new thing.
I know Oishi Eiji Sensei, present generation head of Oishi Shikage Ryu. He loaned me a Yon shaku shinai to try out at the university. It was quite effective as long as you coud keep the distance. If somebody got inside the ma ai there was little you could do.

[KenShi_JoB]

I know Oishi Eiji Sensei, present generation head of Oishi Shikage Ryu. He loaned me a Yon shaku shinai to try out at the university. It was quite effective as long as you coud keep the distance. If somebody got inside the ma ai there was little you could do.

Hello, I always wonder, the 4 shaku mean only the blade part, right?

[Inouye02]

Upon losing your shinai, could you (per match rules) grab your opponent's tsuka and try to wrench his/her shinai out of their hands with a hip throw or like you were mauling a rugby ball?if my memory serves me correct, it was , if you lost your shinai you would rush your opponent and grab the NODO and try to rip his men off...foot sweeping , holding your shinai against your opponents neck and moving them left or right, grabbing the tsuka while in tsubazeriai, ( i do it on occasion in keiko still)
i remember all this from beggining Kendo in early 70's

[Saruwatari Taki]

I wonder if they still teach Pre-WWI Kendo in a common dojo...

[Hisham]

Interesting exchange guys.

[Aijin'sNeko]

and to think these days we just worry about someone hitting a valid target a bit too hard :)

[Fonsz]

Below you will find a link with acces to movies of Kendo demonstrations from '31 till I believe '38. Now if that ain't pre-WWII Kendo then I don't know what is. There are also some recent ones which for the UK Kenshi wil be interesting to spot who's who.
The Kendo at display in the movie Biff! doesn't look very different from what we do nowadays. Take a look and judge for yourself.

http://www.britishpathe.com/product_display.php?searchword=Kendo&Search.x=25&Search.y=27

[KenShi_JoB]

Below you will find a link with acces to movies of Kendo demonstrations from '31 till I believe '38. Now if that ain't pre-WWII Kendo then I don't know what is. There are also some recent ones which for the UK Kenshi wil be interesting to spot who's who.
The Kendo at display in the movie Biff! doesn't look very different from what we do nowadays. Take a look and judge for yourself.

http://www.britishpathe.com/product_display.php?searchword=Kendo&Search.x=25&Search.y=27

As I said in my earlier posts, IMHO modern kendo don't have that much different from the pre-war kendo. Yes there are some changes, but mostly for the safety of the kendoist. People seem to have inflated idea about the differences.

[Aijin'sNeko]

im really not understanding how that site works :S

[KenShi_JoB]

im really not understanding how that site works :S

Just click on Download video, and follow the procedure. They will send an e-mail that have a link to the file you want to download.

[Aijin'sNeko]

Just click on Download video, and follow the procedure. They will send an e-mail that have a link to the file you want to download.

hmmmm interesting

wouldnt mind finding a video with some sweeping and grappling in though,, be something to share with the guys in the dojo ;)

[KenShi_JoB]

hmmmm interesting

wouldnt mind finding a video with some sweeping and grappling in though,, be something to share with the guys in the dojo ;)

In that page there is a 1960s kendo clip that have footsweep.

[Aijin'sNeko]

In that page there is a 1960s kendo clip that have footsweep.

ooh which one?

[Anime12478]

If some dojo offered a crash course on Pre-war kendo, I'd sign up in a heartbeat. It sounds pretty interesting.

[Hisham]

If some dojo offered a crash course on Pre-war kendo, I'd sign up in a heartbeat. It sounds pretty interesting.
A kendo training history course, a pretty good idea.

[Jacynth]

Here you go guys, i found some ww2 kendo pics..


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/Jacynth/oldstyle-kendo99.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/Jacynth/oldphoto5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/Jacynth/oldphoto1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/Jacynth/old2.jpg

enjoy..

[grasshopper_r2]

Have you ever seen the pic where the kendo-ka are on each others shoulders and doing keiko (like playing "chicken")?? I haven't seen this pic in a long time and I haven't had any luck in finding it. If memory serves, the pic was taken in an internment camp.

[Mindreaderkendo]

This may sound immature but i would love for grappling and footsweeping to be allowed. Or have have the excuse to say , " hey nice fall" , Reply "thank you"

[hl1978]

This may sound immature but i would love for grappling and footsweeping to be allowed. Or have have the excuse to say , " hey nice fall" , Reply "thank you"

You aren't alone. There are a number of people who would like kendo to be a bit closer to its prewar roots (given the interest in MMA there certainly is an appeal to it), but most people here on this forum are happy with things as they are.

[ShinKenshi]

This may sound immature but i would love for grappling and footsweeping to be allowed. Or have have the excuse to say , " hey nice fall" , Reply "thank you"Coming from a judo background, I too would like to at least see what it was like when throws and foot sweeps were allowed. That being said however, don't think I'd like being thrown onto a hardwood floor in my bogu or having the mune of my do jammed up into my throat while having my opponent sit on me.

[swyn]

Hi all,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCF8vEmUbs4

oops, it wan't it... (sorry, I couldn't resist, it's my favorite skit...)
the one below titled "Kendo from 50years ago", though the photos Jacynth posted give much more information.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoRO1LJ05SM

Yuko

[LowFatMat]

Out of interest, does anyone else get punched if they don't get out the way after a men cut, or kneed if they linger too long in tsubazeriai?

[hl1978]

Out of interest, does anyone else get punched if they don't get out the way after a men cut, or kneed if they linger too long in tsubazeriai?


I have been taught a "kote punch" as valid waza from tsubazeriai, and have recieved and applied a "punch" when people do not colapse their arms when attempting to go through an opponent. This is different from someone extending their arms out to try and strike someone with their fist.

[ShinKenshi]

Out of interest, does anyone else get punched if they don't get out the way after a men cut, or kneed if they linger too long in tsubazeriai?On occasion, yes to the first and haven't had the second. Normally I get the fist to the mengane during kihon practice and rarely during jigeiko and I don't think about it too much. During kihon practice, I'd rather see the effort from the other person to push through each strike than worry about knocking my head back. Just my two cents so take it with a pinch of salt.

[Anonymous]

Out of interest, does anyone else get punched if they don't get out the way after a men cut, or kneed if they linger too long in tsubazeriai?

At my old dojo, pretty much always if we just sat there and took it while someone tried to blast through/past us. They also did some kinda mean things like nailing you hard in the gut if you had your hands too high after hitting men when coming in kinda close etc. You kinda adjusted real quick to avoid having that happen.

[Matlock]

I have been taught a "kote punch" as valid waza from tsubazeriai, and have recieved and applied a "punch" when people do not colapse their arms when attempting to go through an opponent. This is different from someone extending their arms out to try and strike someone with their fist.

-Note to self: Stay out of all Northern Virginia kendo dojos for fear of being punched around.

Seriously :) they taught you to punch? Just wondering.

The New Mike Tyson of kendo!! Red is winner, by TKO!

Cheers

[hl1978]

-Note to self: Stay out of all Northern Virginia kendo dojos for fear of being punched around.

Seriously :) they taught you to punch? Just wondering.

The New Mike Tyson of kendo!! Red is winner, by TKO!

Cheers

its not a, pull back to the hip and karate punch. more like from tsuba zerai, your right hand stays in place and the left hand while maintaining grip on the tsuka rotates about the right hand to the left side and pushes (or punches) your opponents kote thereby moving their shinai to the side and leaving men open for hiki waza as you step backwards to the left..

[LowFatMat]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one getting pummelled.

When I said 'punch', it's more of a straight arm shove in the face to remind you to shift yourself, not actually a swinging fist. Unless your footwork's really bad.

[Gessho]

Some of the pre-war grappling and rough stuff (like forcing an opponent to the ground and removing his men) is still practiced in many Japanese police dojos. There are a lot of crazy stories.

Now THAT would rock! Finally a way for me to win...

[Takezo]

This pre-war stuff sounds very interesting, yet again its hard for me "not" to find anything kendo/koryu-related "interesting". I can see why some people are looking for pre-war Kendo, makes sense to me why someone could be intrigued by it. Personally, I have a hard enough time in "modern" Kendo club, I can't imagine incorporating those elements, though I wouldn't mind such in light moderation.

[JByrd]

My first Kendo no sensei did Kendo pre-WWII. He was a big man who attended USC on a full-ride NCAA football scholarship, and his favorite technique was tsuki. He trained with Mori Torao, and definitely did all the rough stuff. He wasn't overly enamored of that era at all, and seemed to find the more refined style to be superior. My feeling is that he considered character development to be the primary purpose of Kendo, and the rough stuff did nothing to promote personal refinement.

He did show me a few scary things that would never be acceptable in a polite dojo anymore. I haven't used any of it (though I've been tempted once or twice), nor have I passed much of it along to anyone else.

At a party I heard Miyazaki Masahiro Sensei talking about some of the rough play in the police dojo. He mentioned his (or maybe someone else's? my Japanese is poor!) keikogi being ripped by a missed tsuki attempt. :eek: I can't fathom the kind of force it would take to rip a keikogi.