There should be a law for letting ppl into a dojo?

[Rurouni Kenshin]

I'm basing this on my findings in the Netherlands where I live; I wonder how you guys out there think about this.

I started training Taekwonde like 20 years ago when times werent as bad as they are now. Kids played on the street, less public violence etc....... Now it seems like we have an invasion of agressive ppl. Even then Ive stopped because we had some agressive showoffs that got me injured during training and we werent even sparring.

Often I hear kids at an age of 13-14 talk about beating the shit out of others and going to boxingclass, kickboxing class, thaiboxing class, just any kinds of (martial) arts in which you can severely injure sum1.

I think people/minors with a history of violence and/or a criminal record shouldnt be allowed into any dojo/school. If someone is considered dangerous, think of the outcome after 10 years of kickboxing; he would be a threat to someones life. Those ppl just dont get the true meaning of the art and just want to kick ppls asses; that my vision and experience.

This may sound like discrimination but to me its like "guns dont kill people; people kill people."

Share your thought about this................I'm curious.

[CryingFreeman]

Thats a tough one you know

i dont think it will ever occur that there would be a law against it

the real question is how to tell who should be excluded or not, some people get into a lot of fights but would never start any. some people are always trying to start fights but never get into any.

i believe the sensei has a responsibility to caution bad seeds and to try and guide them to curb violent behaviour. if you can see that a student of yours is a serious troublemaker you should try to help him or get him help, if you cant you should consider whether or not to keep him as a pupil.

People dont always turn out the way you think, some passive people take up martial arts and become bullies, some bullies take up martial arts and become passive.

a law like that could exclude people who could benefit characterwise from the martial arts

seems like this taekwondo incident left an impression on you
do you mind telling what exactly happened

[alan dean]

When a liberal mind set takes over a whole country, the only result is anger in the children.

The same is true here in my country as well....But it's not just in the Dojo...its everywhere.

I went to a movie the other day, I got there early and found a spot near the back and sat down. Then the Teenagers came in.

What I noticed was how rude they were to each other. And I dont mean boys just being rude to other boys.

I saw boys and girls, clearly on a date. cussing at each other...I saw girls hitting their dates...I saw huge arguements over what spot to sit in...

And the really odd part was how "normal" this all seemed to the teeenagers.

I saw a boy and girl fight over something, they cussed each other out , the way i have never dreamed of cussing anyone out.....then the girl hit her boyfriend, and not a Lovey-dovey tap too, But a real I HATE you type of hit.

and then they cussed at eachother some more and sat down....later they were laughing at something as if nothing was out of the norm?

[CryingFreeman]

When a liberal mind set takes over a whole country, the only result is anger in the children.

The same is true here in my country as well....But it's not just in the Dojo...its everywhere.

I went to a movie the other day, I got there early and found a spot near the back and sat down. Then the Teenagers came in.

What I noticed was how rude they were to each other. And I dont mean boys just being rude to other boys.

I saw boys and girls, clearly on a date. cussing at each other...I saw girls hitting their dates...I saw huge arguements over what spot to sit in...

And the really odd part was how "normal" this all seemed to the teeenagers.

I saw a boy and girl fight over something, they cussed each other out , the way i have never dreamed of cussing anyone out.....then the girl hit her boyfriend, and not a Lovey-dovey tap too, But a real I HATE you type of hit.

and then they cussed at eachother some more and sat down....later they were laughing at something as if nothing was out of the norm?
What are you trying to say?
that society is too liberal and thats what causes angry behaviour in kids?
what are you on?
what has this got to do with the question?
you've lost me man, explain further please

[Anime12478]

You really can't discriminate based on background. They might have led a bad life in the past but maybe they are using Kendo to get some order into their lives.

By true belief is that when you meet someone for the first time, they show you what they want you to see. Only after several months of knowing each other do people start to show their true colors. That is when action should be taken if the situation to be turned for the worst.

As for alan dean, teenagers will be teenagers. The cussing probably had nothing to do with being angry or disrespectful to each other, it's just something that they do to seem "cool" or to get their point across in a more vulgur manner. As for the relationships, the kind where stuff like this happens probably wouldn't last.

[Optomitrist]

good topic Rurouni KenshinFrom what I have learned by experience in Taekwondo, when people start out any martial art they have a vision of what they are to achieve and aquire. Almost immediately you will be exposed to something different than what you imagined. I made 2nd Dan in Taekwondo in 7 years. I would say about red belt (2/3 of the way to black) I had learned enough to be quite a dangerous 6th grader. lol. I could fight and it didn't bother me to show off my cool moves on everyone.

So here is the thing, maybe it was the young age and I hadn't matured. or maybe it was the fact that the true meaning of my given martial art hadn't shown it self to me. To make the long story short, I had to work hard, really hard for the judges (multiple instructors) to vote me into black belt. I learned in a could years time what martial art and what they can achieve. I have used that knowledge plus some philosophy I have learned along the way to better my interests in Kendo.

To not allow someone into a martial art would be a crime. If the instructor is good enough they can show any snot nosed brat their missguidings and turn them around.

[KevinF]

I understand totally what Kenshin is saying - there was this guy at my office who is the son of the owner of the company. He usedto love to come and talk to me about his kickboxing classes becuase he knows I have been doing martial arts for several years now. He gets so excited about having fights and fighting people outside of his dojo - he will actaully instigate fights to test his abilities.

It's a bit difficult to explain to someone that they are missing the point with their training when they are the owner's moron son.

Despite this, no one should be barred from education - and the education in a real dojo - whether kendo or otherwise - is too valuable to deny to people. It should be free. This is why Japanese kendo dojos are generally free and teachers don't accept money for teaching. In fact, teaching is part of their advancement after 5dan and required. This is also why I hate the mini-mall McDojos.

Alan - the world has gone to hell in a handbasket. But rest assured, future generations will think the same thing. And yet - the world will move on...

[Optomitrist]

From what I have seen in the past, the elders of the older generations ALWAYS look down on the new generation with disgust saying "we were better than that" and "what is the world coming to?"


Also kevin f, I know what you mean about the kickboxing guy. I know someone like that. They love fighting. He belongs to some Kuh-rate class that teaches taekwondo, "kung fu" and every other martial art their floppy teacher read in some book somewhere. anyway, he likes it simply because of how it feels to fight. And before all you people jump down my neck about how kendo is all about learning shiai, let me say that fighting in kendo is nothing like "sparring" at leasing in taekwondo.

[CryingFreeman]

you know its the adrenaline rush they get from kicking that gets to their heads, when you perform repeated kicks the blood flow in your body becomes irregular, thats why they think they love fighting.

its not like they're really fighting each other anyway

[alan dean]

Rurouni Kenshin has a real point.....thats my point.

Althought Rurouni Kenshin has directed the topic to be about the Dojo, and thats ok,,,,there is a great deal to his post that is also found in the world of today in general.

And I totally REJECT the idea that being rude to a girlfriend, watching two kids on a date cuss each other out,,,and watching a girl hit her boyfriend, is just "kids being normal teenagers"

There is something wrong at work here....something that I noticed the other day at my Dojo too, where a teenager came in and wanted to find out where to train to learn how to break bones, he really wanted to hurt people.

There is just something wrong with the way so much rude manners, and cussing by kids, and hitting others, and being mean to people you are in love with is now seen as 'normal" for teenagers...

I believe this all stems from a liberal mind-set that has taken away the idea of Good morals, good manners, good ways to talk to each other,,,good ways to act on a date with a girl....

Right and wrong used to be ideas that a kid learned over the knee of a parent or a teacher,,,,now we live in a "Might makes right" time in history...

Where if a teenager thinks he can get away with something, this fact gives him or her the idea that they now have a "right" to get away with it too....

Like I said, I went to the movies and watched many teenagers on dates cuss at each other and be very mean to each other...The young boys and girls did this because each felt that the other was wrong. Somewhere it seems that teenagers have come to the idea that if another person is doing something they dont like, then that teenager has the right to be rude to them and treat them as sub-humans...

Rurouni Kenshin is correct in pointing out that in the dojo, this lack of good respect for others can:
1- get people hurt
2-cause the Dojo to close or get closed down by lawyers of people who get hurt.

[louisvandalen]

A bit strange, I'm about your age and have been to several dojo's in the Netherlands from when I was 8 or so. Karate, kickboxing and now Kendo (which I haven't been doing lately because of extensive travel). I think there is a difference between the dojo's: the kendo crowd are probably as nice as people can get while the kickboxing crowd had a bit more agression in them. Fits the sport I guess, kicking and punching others is not suitable for the average whooz.

In the end all instructors could probably beat everybodies ass so it's really a case of talking to them when unecessary violence/agression is used. I don't think this would be tolerated in any of the dojo's that I trained at.

[El Gringo]

Im sorry Alan, but what planet are you from? Were you ever a teenager? Virtually every teenager (including myself when I was that age) thinks that they know everything and have no respect for anyone, its probably something to do with the large amounts of hormones flowing around their bodies.

Plus, whether its wrong or not, swearing is used extensively by all sorts of people, just because your using swear words doesnt mean your being rude to the person your swearing at, quite the opposite can be true, sometimes people use swear words in a positive sense.

[Optomitrist]

alan dean,



yeah I have seen some pretty disrespectful kids too, who do not listen to their elders or people like me when I'm in my car and they are in the street and wont move. I just want to run them all down. Good ridance devil children.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Rurouni Kenshin is correct in pointing out that in the dojo, this lack of good respect for others can:
1- get people hurt
2-cause the Dojo to close or get closed down by lawyers of people who get hurt.
Well in my case it caused a hurricane in my head and I started looking down on Western taught martial arts in general. I always kept martial arts hidden deep in my heart but the urge to practise them went away bit by bit untill last year; I wasted 15 years of practise because of those ppl that pollute the dojos/world and now I really am beating up myself over the waist of time and training and wanted to start iaido. 1 of many reason for Iaido was the fact that classes are real small around here , the people are mature and there hardly are any places where you can learn it.........so one thats want to master the art of iaido is one that respects the art and truely persues it.

I can hardly forgive myself for waisting all this time and I can hardly forgive all the people that make life a hell for those who really try hard to make it better.

Ive seen people get beat up - nearly killed - just because you were there, looked not to their liking or just didnt agree on their thoughts. Ive been attacked myself by people who clearly practised kickboxing and lucky for me these guys were new to it; thats my guess cuz I could read all their moves as they were showing off and could avoid being beaten up badly. In moments like that I do not counter being affraid the situation could escelate to something horrible, though inside me is this urge that creatures like that do not deserve to live among 'normal' ppl, and I really want to see them dead......... i know this is bad and being a friggin pacifist I do not harm anything yet sometimes those ppl really push me and still i manage to control myself.

Sometimes I hope that the ppl that roam the streets picking a fight for no reason whatsoever meet their match and get injured for life as a reminder for what they have been doing.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

A bit strange, I'm about your age and have been to several dojo's in the Netherlands from when I was 8 or so. Karate, kickboxing and now Kendo (which I haven't been doing lately because of extensive travel). I think there is a difference between the dojo's: the kendo crowd are probably as nice as people can get while the kickboxing crowd had a bit more agression in them. Fits the sport I guess, kicking and punching others is not suitable for the average whooz.


Could you please tell me in what reagion you trained? I am talking about the big cities and 'randstad' <-- only comprehensive for ppl who know the Netherlands.
i agree on the kind of art you study attrackts different people..........took me a long time to learn

[Hisham]

A short rant:
Laws laws laws IMHO that's the easy short term solution, what about teaching people how to parent cuse it seems that it's becoming or already became a lost art and i'm not talking about beating up kids to make em do things, The rythm of life is too fast in a money driven system, people seldom get to sit down and gather around a meal as families did, IMHO the art of living is going extinct.

The kina people who get to train in a dojo will ultimately depend on the people who are runing and teaching in it.
My 2cents

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Exactly the art of living is going extinct.............. and you notice it in every aspect...........

[not-I]

[...]I believe this all stems from a liberal mind-set that has taken away the idea of Good morals, good manners, good ways to talk to each other [...] Right and wrong used to be ideas that a kid learned over the knee of a parent or a teacher[...]
You are begging the question here. A "liberal mind-set" is an ideological abstraction (and now a political pejorative), which doesn't cause anything. Perhaps you mean "permissiveness."

Yes, a child learns (or doesn't learn) morals and manners from parents and teachers (and not necessarily through corporal punishment). Today's problem is not the "liberal mind-set" of parents and teachers, it is the lack of parents and teachers, i.e. the prevalance of working single-parent households and overcrowded underfunded schools. Also, extreme social inequality tends to generate frustration and destructive behavior among the underpriviledged, which includes parents. The solution employed by huge societies such as the U.S. or Russia has been to simply incarcerate them through draconian sentencing (3-strikes rule, etc.), hence the huge proportion of Americans and Russians in prison.

To return to the original question, the lack of "street" applications in kendo tends to discourage the violently-minded from taking it up. As far as other martial arts go, the trend towards money-making mcdojos encourages a lack of responsibility among teachers as they are paid to teach their students what they want to learn.

From a legal standpoint (as far as i know), those who employ martial arts to physically assault others will receive higher sentences when convicted. A case can also be made to shut down a school if it can be proven that it has encouraged such behavior. These are reactive measures. In these days of Homeland Security, proactive measures could probably also be taken (flight-school analogy).

[CryingFreeman]

i agree the martial arts world has bad eggs but this is no reason to start radical exclusionist ideas about who is allowed to train and who isnt

no one can judge the worth of another

alan, i understand where you are coming from but your perspective is narrow, where i grew up everyone used cuss words in all aspects of life and thought nothing of it, you swear at your mates they swear back, you swear at your girlfriend she swears back,

i believe what is important is the intention of the person who is swearing which is not always as negative as it comes across to an observer.

in some regions of society "f**k off" is the equivalent of "whatever"
depending on where you are and who your with

the idea that children should be disciplined by there parents opens up a whole can of worms, depression, repression, abuse, cyclic abuse etc

thats why its frowned upon nowadays

the teenager who wanted to learn to break bones, hasn't got the slightest clue what he wants to learn, he just thinks he does.

your perception of good morals, good behaviour etc are all based from your experiences in life, if your life circumstances where different, so would your opinions be. this is the benefit of liberalism, you are allowed to think for yourself, and if enough people agree with you then you can do something about it.

the way you think people should act, is not wrong or right, but just your view

anyway we all know that nowadays being rude to people can be a show of affection.

look at how guys lovingly call each other things like D**kwad and S**thead
and girls call there girlfriends W***re and S**t

its not pretty, its downright crude, but the dynamics of the relationship allow such talk to be interpreted as affection

a hundred years ago the english used to refer to comrades as old boy or old chap, or you old bugger
a hundred years before that and they would have been seen as insults
times change and words and slangs take on multiple meanings which are never universal

you must realise that the situation under which you would use such words is completely different to the situations when the teenagers of nowadays would

you mentioned something about them treating people as sub-human, to me this just means that its only if you saw them as sub-human that you would treat them that way, but i'm sure this isn't the way the kids see it

[AkuSokuZan]

My belief towards this:

When they enter the dojo, the sensei and sempai try their hardest to teach tem good values and what dicipline is. The students often don't learn or accept what the sensei teaches them. Those are usually the ones that quit. Also, if the dojo is a strick one that has good values, yet, is slightly loose (Not [sorry about generalizing] catholic school strick, but just, keeping rules), the students should eventually mold him or herself into shape. Also, without the state of mind necesairy to do kendo, they will not get anywhere, become frustrated and stop. I have only seen those that are willing to improve, see their mistakes, and practice to better themselves continue kendo.

[jmarsten]

A bit strange, I'm about your age and have been to several dojo's in the Netherlands from when I was 8 or so. Karate, kickboxing and now Kendo (which I haven't been doing lately because of extensive travel). I think there is a difference between the dojo's: the kendo crowd are probably as nice as people can get while the kickboxing crowd had a bit more agression in them. Fits the sport I guess, kicking and punching others is not suitable for the average whooz.

In the end all instructors could probably beat everybodies ass so it's really a case of talking to them when unecessary violence/agression is used. I don't think this would be tolerated in any of the dojo's that I trained at.


I think your pretty much spot on. One of my assistants has an expression that covers this "People of bad character don't stay in kendo, they either change their character or leave"
Over the years we have found that it is fairly easy to get rid of those individuals who don't get it. 1. I make the practice so hard in the physical endurance part that they quit. 2. Several of the uppper students make it a point to give the individual up close and personal lessons in jikeiko taking them apart and not letting them get in one hit.
We had a person in the university class that was a total jerk and all the other students in bogu were just waiting for the day he got in armor. He had been especially rude to the other asians that were female in the club. The ladies took him out the first night, one little gal knocked him down twice. He never came back for round two.

[Alex_McGrady]

...I went to a movie the other day, I got there early and found a spot near the back and sat down. Then the Teenagers came in.

What I noticed was how rude they were to each other. And I dont mean boys just being rude to other boys.

I saw boys and girls, clearly on a date. cussing at each other...I saw girls hitting their dates...I saw huge arguements over what spot to sit in...

And the really odd part was how "normal" this all seemed to the teeenagers.

I saw a boy and girl fight over something, they cussed each other out , the way i have never dreamed of cussing anyone out.....then the girl hit her boyfriend, and not a Lovey-dovey tap too, But a real I HATE you type of hit.

and then they cussed at eachother some more and sat down....later they were laughing at something as if nothing was out of the norm?Dude, where do you live???

Alex

[Djanello]

As far as true martial arts are concerned; it should be free for anyone.

I have to stress the art factor here, which will require a high level of respect for the art they're performing. I have seen two big classes of new kendoka's and in retrospect have watched several among them lighten up and grow mentally. They're always respectful to others now and have learned to bow to their fellow kendokas. This is enough proof to me that anyone who's willing to truly pursue a martial art, will mold into the proper discipline. It might even prevent people with a bad background from going astray again.

This same thing doesn't apply to the martial arts that have left their original roots. Judo, certain forms of karate and all kinds of boxing are not an art as much as they're a sport. Sports might attract people who would like to use their benefits for an agressive purpose; They're not practising true martial arts though. All aggressive persons will try to get an advantage, it's in their nature.

The strict discipline and respect that comes from true martial arts though will either prevent those kinds of people from permanently joining or will help them stay off the wrong track.

[alan dean]

alan, i understand where you are coming from but your perspective is narrow, where i grew up everyone used cuss words in all aspects of life and thought nothing of it, you swear at your mates they swear back, you swear at your girlfriend she swears back,



I read your whole post..as well as a few others like El Gringo's, .and I totally disagree with every point you made...And it's not just that I think that you guy's have your way and I have my way...NO,,,I believe everything you listed is deeply Wrong and is a sign of a real problem we have in the world right now.

I dont beliebe the world is set up to run correctly where boyfriends and girlfriends treat each other with such lack of respect...I dont believe that useing the "F-word" should be thought of as a normal way for people to speak.

I dont care how many people use it around you, I believe we are called to make the world "better" via our own actions, and not just "do as others do"
The things we Think/Say/and Do should reflect the highest standards that we are called to keep, not just blend in so that we appear no better than most.

I believe that when you find that you are growing up in a area and time where young boys and girls hit each other on a date, that this is a sign that you are dealing with wrong manners....not just different, not just a bit more "liberal", but deeply wrong.

This is how the world was set up to run correctly:
...That a boy and girl treat each other on dates with the highest form of respect. That one day they might marry and have children, and such children can grow up in a home where they see a Father married to a Mother, and treating each other with the same respect that showed for each other while dateing...That a boy child is raised knowing what it means to be a "dad", because all he needs to do is look across the breakfast table to see what a "Married Father" looks like.

[alan dean]

Dude, where do you live???

Alex

While I would hope that what I see in the way boys and girls treat each other is a "local problem".....I dont want to be blind to what I have seen wherever I have went , and wherever I have lived.

I would never try to blame the problems I see building in America on a different country. I dont believe any other country has been the cause of this...

But the problem is real ...

I have no idea as to what the answer is, other than for people to decide to make their own personal lives better....To begin to reflect a Higher calling in our own personal actions...

[alan dean]

True Story,
Im in 2nd grade. We are standing in the lunch line at dinner time. I am telling my friend about my weekend Father and Son trip in the woods camping that our church put on.
I ask my friend if his church had Father-Son camping trips?

He answers: "I dont have a dad, he divorced my mom"

I didn't have a clue what he was talking about.
What did he mean he didnt have a dad?
Who was this "he" that divorced his mom?
What does the word "divorce" mean?

All the other kids listening to my friend all turned to look at him. None of us could understand what he was saying, so rare was the ideas he was talking about.

40 years go by...

My brother goes to the church day-care to get his son Gunner. One of the other little boys playing with young Gunner sees my brother standing talking to the teacher and taps Gunnar on the back and says, "Hey Gunner, your mom's boyfriend is here to pick you up"

Gunner turns to his friend and calls out, Thats not my mom's "boyfriend", thats my dad, they are MARRIED!"

The other children listening all turn to look at Gunner and my brother, they didnt understand what Gunner had said.
What does it mean that his dad was "married" to his mom?

So my brother saw this going on and asked the teacher what the reactions of the other children meant?

The teacher told my brother that Gunner was the lone child in the daycare , who had a real dad marred to their mother. None of the other kids were growing up in a home where they got to see both parents at the same dinner table.

Thats why the kids didnt understand what Gunner had said. Because they had never seen such a thing in their own lives...


There is something deeply WRONG with this situation being now what is called "normal"...

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Well my parents seperated when I was 3 yeasr old and then I moved with my mom to the Netherlands; I basically chose to not have a dad as I chose not to have contact with him and he never contacted me either. I did have a father figure for a long time untill they split up again; my mom did an awesome job raising me by herself and sometimes I think Ive failed her by being such a screwup sometimes............

But yes; it shouldnt be 'normal'............

[alan dean]

Rurouni Kenshin...It would be my hope that you decide right here and now to raise up your own future children with an "image" of terms like "Dad, Mom,Husband,wife, Marrage, united, and vows, ) that is better than what you might have received from the generation before you.

I dont know of any way to make this world stop the downward spin that it's on other than for each of us to see the truth of whats going on, and then to make changes in our own lives that make things better.

Too many kids are growing up in homes where there is no dad, just a collection of their mom's live-in boyfriends, who come and go.

You can NOT expect a young boy to know what being happly married man and a loveing father means if they have NEVER seen such a person in their own lives.

While Im very, VERY glad to hear that some lucky young men had a chance to know the boyfriends of their mom in a manner that allowed them to became a much needed "father figure"....still....thats NOT the way the world was set up to help kids learn what the word "Father" really means.

To really know what the term "Father" means you have to be there, day after day, year after year. You have to watch the way this person you call your "Father" shows his great love for your mother, his wife.

Im also glad to hear that there are mothers who are out there doing as best they can to raise up their sons without a real "dad" in the house, HOWEVER it is actually wrong to ask any mother to try to teach a young boy what it is to be a man...she cant do that...

The world is set up to run correctly with the Mom being the mom, and showing her children what it means to be a mom via them watching her in her life...She cant "be the dad too" because she is not the dad...the dad is the dad,,,,When we dont have a dad around there is a void in the son's life..

Let us learn form the mistakes of the earlyer generation and make sure our own children have no such voids...

[nalogg]

I heard something once that kinda relates to this (or what this thread has turned into)

"Any man can be a father, but only real men can be dads."

[CryingFreeman]

[QUOTE=alan dean]I read your whole post..as well as a few others like El Gringo's, .and I totally disagree with every point you made...And it's not just that I think that you guy's have your way and I have my way...NO,,,I believe everything you listed is deeply Wrong and is a sign of a real problem we have in the world right now.
QUOTE]


i think it is that we have our way and you have your way.

our way is to accept the world as it is

your way is to expect the world to conform with your ideals

your ideas of what is good manners and behaviours and family norms

just because ideas are popular doesnt make them right, if you cant see through the eyes of other people, in different circumstances and with different outlooks on life, how can you ever relate to or understand their world.

your initial statement says it all when you mention the "liberal" society
key point being that liberal describes "Free"

Societal repression is one of the major causes of terrible actions by individuals and societies in the past. Are you really qualified to say that if these kids treated each other with respect they will be better human beings on the inside?

if they then did anything crazy people would always say, such and such was such a nice person, just like they do about serial killers


its all well and good to complain about broken marriages and divorce, but do
you know what its like to live in the situations that bring about these things.

you cant just put it down to how polite people are and how kids should and shouldnt behave. and point that out as the "real" problem being ignored

a real problem is something like 1 million people being slaughtered by hand in one day and one night in this day and age, because of their tribe

a real problem is 4% of the population homeless and destitute while rocket ships and space shuttles shoot off into space

40 % or more in the case of Russia

i'm going off point here but the fact is that what you consider right and wrong isnt universal, and things like marriage, divorce, and politeness are hardly the big problems.

[alan dean]

I once turned on the Tv and watched a show where Black-American funny man Bill Cosby was talking about what he felt was the cause of the downfall of so many young black men....

His answer fits right into this topic:....Bill Cosby said, "No dads"

Mr Cosby talked about the lack of dads in the early lives of so many young black men , and the effect this has had, turning such young men into a more basic brut-animal form of an adult man,,,,a man who puts his own desires above all else.

You can not turn around and ask young men to treat their girlfriends with love and good manners, if they have never seen an example in their own homes.

It pains me to hear about the lives of some of the younger men I work with at my job. They tell me how except for a few times when they were younger, they had no conversations with their real dads.

It pains me to know that they never got to see how a man is meant to act. They never saw a dad sitting across from them at the breakfast table. Never saw the way a dad and husband is meant to act when haveing a conversation with their mother, his wife.

This leads to the undercutting of the whole idea of getting married, and of provideing for your children...and of working to make your son into a person you would want him to become.

Of the 12 men on my work crew, I and one other guy are the lone guys who are married to the mother of our children.

As of about 10 years ago, I have NEVER worked with a guy in his 20s that has both kids, and is married to the mother of his children.

When I ask them why they didnt marry the mother of their own children, the very idea of getting married to her appears to be very strange to them. It's as if they never gave such an idea a thought.

When asked, my younger co-workers dont see the need to "be there" in the lives of their children, because their own dad was never around.

Here is another way to see what Im talking about:
I worked 2 years ago with a young guy who just had a baby with a girlfriend. About that time he also got picked up for drunk driveing and had to go to sleep in jail at night.

I talked to him about his child's need for him to marry the mother and be there from now on to set a good example for the child. "So that your baby grows up knowing what is right and wrong, what is normal and what is not"

The young man disagreed.
So I asked him to talk to the others in the jail with him about this topic. They were all in jail for the same reason,(drunk behind the wheel) and talked about tlots of stuff for hours anyway... I asked him to find out how many there in jail with him also have kids?, and then ask the guys that have kids if they actually are married to the mother of their children?

The next day he came back and told me that of the 15 or so guys he shoots the bull with in jail, all of them had kids, and yet none of them were married to the mother...

This made him stop and think about the odd un-seen connection he had found between not getting married to the mother of your children, and ending up arested for drunk driveing.

I believe the same connections are found with about most problems you can name,,,,ABORTION, RAPE, DRUGS, GUNS, everything, every type of problem that can come up in the life of your child will only be made greater if that child has been raised without any idea of how a married, Father is meant to act.

[CryingFreeman]

much of what your saying is relevant and correct but what strikes me is the idea of obligation despite varying circumstances

though the family unit is important, single parents still do great jobs and raise good well balanced children

people have free will, you cannot determine someones character by imposing good etiquette and social skills on them.

if a person chooses to be a bad person
then they will be a bad person, polite or impolite, married or unmarried, educated or uneducated, but a bad person none the less.

we may not all have the best oppurtunities or chances, but we all have the choice to choose between good and evil, and this has nothing to do with marriage, or politeness.

if you rescue someone from a burning building and you call them a f***ing idiot does that make you a worse human bieng?
really?

i just dont see how our liberal society is a problem

[alan dean]

I would answer: that if someone calls you a "f***ing idiot" and you do not curse them back, this makes you a better person.

If someone calls you a "f***ing idiot" and you do good to them, this makes you a better person.

To become a better person, we need only answer the Higher Calling on our lives and forgive others who curse us.

The family unit is not just important to defend in our time, it has always been the very center of our human world.
Not marring the mother of your own children is the wrong thing to do. It is for today in 2005, it was in 1905, it was in 1805 , it always has been and will always be the wrong thing to do.

Here is another story:
I was in a truck going from one job to another with a young man that just had his 3rd child with his girlfriend. I talked to him about how important it will prove to future of his newest baby that he marries the mother and becomes a real live-in dad. Now at first he too came up with all kinds of reasons why for him and his girlfriend to marry , that now is not the right time for that.
But then I told him about how life was meant to go, how the world was set up to run correctly .

He thought about it for a while, we drove along without speaking. The he turned to me and said, "Yah, I guess you are right".

Then right away he asked if I had ever cheated on my wife?
This type of question hints at what is the real reason he had never decided to marry his girlfriend after all the years. It had nothing to do with money or credit cards or being right for each other. It was his late night trips to the bars with his drinking buddies after strange women that he had been protecting all this time.

I think thats what Bill Cosby was talking about as to the reason there is a lack of dads in the lives of so many young black youth. The lack of dads helps us raise young men to become adults that put their own desires above all else.

And this is wrong.

[CryingFreeman]

I would answer: that if someone calls you a "f***ing idiot" and you do not curse them back, this makes you a better person.
what if you call them a f***ing idiot because you are 100% convinced that they are a f***ing idiot and you feel they need to hear it in order to stop being a f***ing idiot, and that if you put it any other way they might not get the message.

does that make you a bad or worse person, are you not being honest, wouldnt it be decietful to say what you dont mean, after all you can lie by what you say and what you dont say.

if i was uneducated and lacking a wide vocabulary and f***ing idiot was the most accurate way i could communicate what i meant am i a bad person or a worse human being? do the circumstances of my life have no part to play in all this?


If someone calls you a "f***ing idiot" and you do good to them, this makes you a better person.
what if i do good to them, and still call them a f***ing idiot, am i a good person or a bad person


To become a better person, we need only answer the Higher Calling on our lives and forgive others who curse us.
what if we didnt hold it against them in the first place? like i said not everyone interprets "swear words" the way you do, its the intention that
is important not what is said


The family unit is not just important to defend in our time, it has always been the very center of our human world.
Not marring the mother of your own children is the wrong thing to do. It is for today in 2005, it was in 1905, it was in 1805 , it always has been and will always be the wrong thing to do..
in parts africa the family unit was often a large collection of an extended family, your father was the same to you as any other adult male in the community, what you mean by marriage is a religous concept, and no it has not always been that way. there are parts of the world where it has never been that way.

not marrying someone wasnt wrong until people decided it was right at some point in history, it is not a truth that has existed since time began.


Here is another story:
I was in a truck going from one job to another with a young man that just had his 3rd child with his girlfriend. I talked to him about how important it will prove to future of his newest baby that he marries the mother and becomes a real live-in dad. Now at first he too came up with all kinds of reasons why for him and his girlfriend to marry , that now is not the right time for that.
But then I told him about how life was meant to go, how the world was set up to run correctly .

He thought about it for a while, we drove along without speaking. The he turned to me and said, "Yah, I guess you are right".

Then right away he asked if I had ever cheated on my wife?
This type of question hints at what is the real reason he had never decided to marry his girlfriend after all the years. It had nothing to do with money or credit cards or being right for each other. It was his late night trips to the bars with his drinking buddies after strange women that he had been protecting all this time..
Yes he loves his friends more than the mother of his child, is that so wrong?
Perhaps he gets on better with them than he does with his girlfriend

the fact that he doesnt want to marry the woman is a good reason that they dont get married

if they got married they would face problems because he didnt want to get married in the first place.

perhaps he wants to marry someone else? do you choose who you fall in love with?


I think thats what Bill Cosby was talking about as to the reason there is a lack of dads in the lives of so many young black youth. The lack of dads helps us raise young men to become adults that put their own desires above all else.

And this is wrong.
Perhaps its because there are more black men aged 15-35 in jail than black men of that age out of jail, perhaps poverty is an issue, perhaps lack of education, lack of opportunity, rampant crime, drugs and street gangs and second class citizenship play a part.

marriage is not the issue, placing their own "desires" as you put it is often not the issue, and vernacular is definately irrellevant

[alan dean]

Bill Cosby is not going all over America speaking before Black-Americans in the hope of getting some type of law passed.

He is speaking about the need to pass on to each generation the wisdom that the world was set up to run correctly only one way.

I have been asked the question:
"Yes he loves his friends more than the mother of his child, is that so wrong? "

My answer is:
This weekend , my wife and I will have the pleasure of attending their wedding.
My friend has had to walk this path without the help of an example of a father in his own life. But he has come to the point where understands the needs of his child for him to do what is right, outweigh the desires of the flesh to continue to persue the wrong.

Leadership and guidance to the kids in your own life, this is the way to stop teenage boys and girls from misbehaver on dates to the movies. Dads are able provide for them examples of correct behavior at home.

The way to help an "MIA-Father" come to terms with the obligations that are now his following the birth of his child , is to provide support and guidance for him as he repents" of one life, and begins another that he now knows is "better". Better for his own family, and better for the whole world as well...

[nalogg]

On the subject of marriage....

Don't get me wrong, I love my girlfriend, my mother, my sister, my grandmother, and my aunts.

But to practice true EQUALity let's not exclude women from this.

Not only are women also guilty of running out on their kids (occasionally), but women can be responsible for their boyfriends and husbands not staying.

Birth control is the responsibility of the man AND the woman, and frankly a woman who leaves the birth control totally up to her man is a MORON! (similarly with a man).

Being a father to your child is one thing, but staying with the mother is an entirely different thing. And If a woman doesn't want her man to leave she has to follow certain steps:

Given that my personal picture of an ideal "relationship-man", and what i try to be, is one that will be committed or at least take responsibility for his kid. (so if that's true, none of these steps really apply)

a) don't get into a relationship with somebody non-committed, if what you want is commitment

b) failing A, don't allow yourself to have a baby with a man who is not committed. (accidents do happen, but i'm not going to go sex-ed and talk about preventing pregnancy)

c) failing A and B, offer him something that is greater than or equal to what he can get somewhere else.

and when those 3 steps have all failed THEN it is the man's fault, and you're simply involved with a jackass. In summary, it's equally the man's fault for leaving as it is the woman's fault for being involved with a jackass.


GAH! this converation is too heavy for a kendo forum!

KIRIKAESHI!!!!! KIAAAAAAAIIIII!!!!!!!!!! MENNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!

[CryingFreeman]

Bill Cosby is not going all over America speaking before Black-Americans in the hope of getting some type of law passed.

He is speaking about the need to pass on to each generation the wisdom that the world was set up to run correctly only one way.
Herein lies our disagreement, i dont believe the world was set up to run correctly one way, just because one way can work doesnt make it correct or any more ideal than others, and it definately doesnt mean other ways are wrong


I have been asked the question:
"Yes he loves his friends more than the mother of his child, is that so wrong? "

My answer is:
This weekend , my wife and I will have the pleasure of attending their wedding.
My friend has had to walk this path without the help of an example of a father in his own life. But he has come to the point where understands the needs of his child for him to do what is right, outweigh the desires of the flesh to continue to persue the wrong.
You tend to ignore all my questions, you dont answer any of them

are you so blind as to assume that only desires of the flesh keep people from doing what you consider right?

i wonder whether or not without your influence your friend would have got married and i wonder whether or not he wanted to get married or whether your influence on him is what made him make the step. after all the love between him and his wife wasnt enough to get them married for quite a while it seems.


Leadership and guidance to the kids in your own life, this is the way to stop teenage boys and girls from misbehaver on dates to the movies. Dads are able provide for them examples of correct behavior at home.

The way to help an "MIA-Father" come to terms with the obligations that are now his following the birth of his child , is to provide support and guidance for him as he repents" of one life, and begins another that he now knows is "better". Better for his own family, and better for the whole world as well...
A parent is necessary but putting it down to wayward fathers is silly, you should know good examples still produce bad seeds, and bad examples can still produce good people

i think we should spare the people on this forum this debate, i am willing to continue the conversation through PMs

[alan dean]

I was once asked to help teach in the "Young Marrieds" class at our church. I got to work with closely the teachers of the "New Moms and Dads" class that was next to my classroom .

I noticed time and time again that most of the young married members of my class were not all that interested in learning about how to raise a child with help of the church until after the birth of their 1st child and the comming of their 2nd.

It seems that at first most new parents believe that there is just not one system that would prove to be any better than another. But in time their views start to change.
Not until they have walked a mile on their own do most new parents have the mind-set that seeks other's advice.

The world was set up from the beginning to run one way correctly.
That being: that a child learns how to become an adult by watching the life and manners of both the parents.

This is true now, was true 1000 years ago, will be still true 1000 years from today...This is the way the world is set up to run correctly.

[CryingFreeman]

i think your wrong

[alan dean]

I noticed time and time again that most of the young married members of my class were not all that interested in learning...

When we all are young, there seems little need to re-think many things...





...most new parents believe that there is just not one system that would prove to be any better than another.

With time, most people can start to see things better. Wisdom seems to be the correct use of knowledge and information in the correct manner.

[CryingFreeman]

When we all are young, there seems little need to re-think many things....
Yes old man, but when we are old we re-think perhaps too often, and sometimes refuse to re-think at all, especially the ideas of those younger than ourselves for after all, what can they know right?

There is an old japanese saying that goes

"Experience should fear the strength of youth"


With time, most people can start to see things better..
perhaps, or perhaps with time people lose their resolve and self belief

With time people will only see things better if they are constantly reassessing, some people refuse to question or think over things they had decided a long time ago. if they were wrong then, then they are still wrong now, except they are more sure that they are right because of how long they've had said ideas.



Wisdom seems to be the correct use of knowledge and information in the correct manner.
I disagree

Wisdom is knowing that the uses of knowledge and information cannot be divide simply into correct or incorrect.

Wisdom is knowing that what one man deems correct is incorrect in the eyes of another

Wisdom is knowing that what is correct and incorrect is a matter of opinion

Wisdom is knowing that opinions are relations among ideas and not matters of fact

Wisdom is having opinions you can defend rationally to rational people an inability to do so, casts shadows on the rationality of the opinions

it is a sign of wisdom to keep only rational opinions


there is a quote which i feel is particularly pertinent to this discussion

"It is the mark of an educated man to fully entertain an idea without accepting it"

- Aristotle

if you do not entertain an idea you will not understand it

[Matt Molloy]

The world was set up from the beginning to run one way correctly.
You should always consider the possibility that the way that the world "was set up" is not your way.

As to the rest of your words, I've rarely heard such patronising nonsense.

Of course you think that things used to be better, but when exactly are you thinking of?

Eighties? When the ethos was me and my money first?

Sixties? When there was a nasty little conflict being prosecuted in SE Asia?

Prior to that?

Senator McCarthy's nasty little "UnAmerican activities" witchhunt?

Lynchings in the deep South due to racism?

Couple of world wars?

Depression?

Flu pandemic?

Empire building?

Famine?

Disease?

I'm glad that your church, your religion and your worldview give you such comfort but there really isn't a need, aside from stroking your own ego, to foist it on the rest of us.

And as for seeing "liberal" as such a bad thing, you'd do well to remember that it comes from the same root as "Liberty" which I believe is held to be quite a good thing in America.

Cheers,

Matt.

[CryingFreeman]

Exactly

Thanks Matt

[Matt Molloy]

Exactly

Thanks Matt
No problem man. Anytime.

Cheers,

Matt.