Ichi Gan, Ni Soku (One, eyes, two, feet)

[Charlie]

Gonna be hard for me to put this all down, and I should caution anyone reading this that it may not apply in the same way to less experienced kendoists than it may to me and others.

Recently I had the fortune to have one of our teachers from another dojo watch my match in shiai and he gave me some advice I have been processing ever since. He said that I launched good attacks on my opponent but that they were patterned and did not take advantage of openings. He said several openings appeared but because I was so commited to my waza, I did not see them and launched ineffectual waza instead. He said, "Remember what Tagawa-sensei always says, ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki." (Some of you may know this old kendo proverb means "one, eyes; two, feet; three, tenacity/spirit; four, strength.) He advised me to develop the ability to see openings and capitalize on them, especially now that I am playing at sandan level.

This is why I said it might not apply to other, less experienced players; some of you guys should probably not be thinking of jigeiko in this way but rather focusing on only attacking. But sensei's advice has me thinking of what it means to use your eyes in the combat.

Basically, I have always felt that attacks are "guesses," for lack of a better word, that you anticipate where the opening will be or work to create the opening through seme and attack it, ready to follow it up with another attack. It seems to me that sensei's advice is suggesting my conscious mind play a somewhat bigger role. At any rate, I think it ups the mental apsects of the game.

I have only tried putting this into physical practice a little since then and so have no further enlightenment at this time. What are you thoughts, I mean this to all of you but especially you yudansha who may also be at or near this level of play?

[Lucien]

Hi Charlie

I am sandan too and I think I hit a similar wall about a year ago. I found the following two things very useful.

In his Kendo Reader (http://www.osi.uio.no/kendo/pdf/Noma.pdf), Noma Hisashi mentions the same ichi gan adage. He goes on to explain it very well. I would suggest you read it, particularly where he talks about how to regard an opponent. He really puts the 'looking at a distant mountain' idea into context, as well as explaining other aspects of kendo which I had not considered before.

In short, I would summarise it as saying that when we are under pressure we tend to get tunnel vision, but we should remain relax and take in everything. The idea of water reflecting the moon comes to mind. He then goes on to talk about 'kan' or the mind's eye, but I'll leave that to the philosophers.

The other thing is of course practice. I have found that even doing a few suburi every day has helped me get over a slight complacency that I had been feeling in my kendo and allowed me to react much more instinctively during keiko and shiai.

I hope this helps

L

[Charlie]

Thanks, Lu, I'll go read that today and put it in the metling pot I call a brain.

[Lucien]

Yeah, do, and tell me what you think of it.

[Charlie]

One thing I'm trying to reconcile is the thinking part, after years and years of being told to always "not think." Now, sensei seems to be saying, "Well, think a little." I was trying to watch other high-level players at shiai for evidence of this.

[JSchmidt]

Basically, I have always felt that attacks are "guesses," for lack of a better word
That's how it starts out!...while I would say that while the majority of my attacks are more or less educated guesses, I have noticed an increasing amount of genuine openings. They will almost present themselves in a 'tunnel' like manner and feel like the easiest thing in the world to execute.
As always, it comes down to footwork. Moving to create the opening (seme) is only 1/2 the job...you then also have to make sure that your feet (body) are in position to capitalize on the opening.

All the 'mental' training in the world wont help, if your feet aren't in position to attack.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

There's a good drill you can use to work on this stuff. Step sharply in (push seme) and then have your partner open. But your partner should open randomly and you should react. If he protects kote, hit men. If he protects men, hit doh or kote depending. If he doesn't move, stay put. So you have to a) step in b) wait a bit to see if an opening comes c) recognise the opening and d) execute.

Another, opposite kind of drill is to practice all your oji-waza with partners attacking randomly. In this case, it's best to use a group of at least 3, preferably 5. One in the middle, and the rest of the group divided on either side. The guy in the middle defends against attackers coming alternately from each line. You can start this drill by having a proscribed attack and defence, but the goal is random attack/appropriate defence.

Neither of these drills is very good for people under 2 dan, they find them frustrating. Actually the second drill I think of as a 3+ dan drill.

[Charlie]

Jakob, yes - two, FEET!

Neil, follow-up:



Another, opposite kind of drill is to practice all your oji-waza with partners attacking randomly. In this case, it's best to use a group of at least 3, preferably 5. One in the middle, and the rest of the group divided on either side. The guy in the middle defends against attackers coming alternately from each line. You can start this drill by having a proscribed attack and defence, but the goal is random attack/appropriate defence.

So, they are coming at the middle guy in a kind of triangle?

[Neil Gendzwill]

No, straight line. The monkey in the middle has to keep spinning 180 degrees to meet the next attacker. An alternate form of the drill is to have attackers all around in a circle and randomly come at the defender.

[hyuna]

One thing I'm trying to reconcile is the thinking part, after years and years of being told to always "not think." Now, sensei seems to be saying, "Well, think a little." I was trying to watch other high-level players at shiai for evidence of this.

Being 3-dan, this subject is something I have been thinking about also. At my present level of development I find it useful to use different synonyms for "think" to clarify my thinking. Here is about where I am right now:

I think "calculate" or that sort of sense is incorrect. That is, it is not correct to set out some complicated plan in the mind and then work to execute on it without regard for the realities of the situation. For example, sometimes people will decide that they are going to do some oji-waza and then they stop seeing any openings to attack and try to do it even if the situation is inappropriate for that particular waza. That is not the right kind of "think."

I also think that "study" in the way we normally use the word is not correct. That is, of course we have to observe closely our opponent but, personally, when I think of "studying" I am thinking of a state where I am not acting. That is, when I "study" a book, I read and chew on it for a while, but it is all in my head. In the same way, if we just sit and watch our opponent without a feeling of action, that is obviousy not kendo.

Also, "conjecture" or "surmise" or, as you said, "guess" seems to be the wrong way to think. But I am not sure how much it applies to those of us going for 4-dan. I do know riai ("logical" or "rational" strikes) matters for 5-dan, but I suppose the question for us at 3-dan is if we are ever not merely "guessing" at openings. But even we at 3-dan do not really guess at an opening, not the way a beginner might. We have some idea as to what is open and what is not. It is just not very developed. So, I think when we "guess" at an opening, we are really "deciding" on an opening to develop. That is how I perceive it to be for me, when I think carefully about my practice. I think "hmm. kensen is a little low, men might be open, how can I take advantage of that." That is a surmise, an operating theory, and as I operate on that I stop noticing what is or is not open in reality.

The common point between these notions of "think" is that lack of grounding in reality. That is, they are all about living in our own heads and acting out what we want to do or what we want to perceive instead of seeing and reacting to what is real.

However, notice that it is "gan" -- eyes. That is, I think, about seeing and perceiving what is there in front of you. Not really so much "thinking" in any of the preceeding senses.

So I think the key is to learn to see the truth of the situation in front of you and to act on it correctly. This is not a mindless activity because perception and understanding is not mindless. But it is at the same time not a mindful activity. Obvious examples are all around us. As I write this, I am not really mindful of most of my grammar, spelling, and language -- I do not think over each individual word, or make an elaborate plan of what each sentence will be. I simply type it out. And, yet, it is obviously also not a mindless sort of reflex activity. The same is true of many things we do -- walking, cooking, driving, whatever we do at our job, and so forth.

So to summarize briefly, I think the goal is not so much "to think" as it is "to know." This distinction also, I think, goes a long way to explaining some other concepts, such as attacking with sutemi. But that is a different topic...

This is where I am currently at. I hope other people will comment, as this is a very confusing topic for me.

[DCPan]

Basically, I have always felt that attacks are "guesses," for lack of a better word, that you anticipate where the opening will be or work to create the opening through seme and attack it, ready to follow it up with another attack.

Hi Charlie,

I'm working on the same.

I can't remember who told me this, but someone told me that when he did tobikomi men, it feels like he wants to pat their head, much like how one would pat the dog on the head....

Weird thing is, lately, when I feel that I can pat the other person's top of the head, I can hit their men 99% of the time.

That probably didn't help you...except what I'm trying to say is, you can "feel" in a very visceral way when someone is open.

Also, I've been working on feeling my opponent by crossing the kensen...it's not really a problem when they refuse to have kensen contact because then their kamae is open, and they have to over-compensate when you move.

Regards to getting a feel on what your opponent is going to do...that's why I always mumble "omote/ura".

A very basic practice.

Seme as if to strike hidari men by riding your shinai over the opponent's chudan.

If you feel the opponent isn't going to respond to your seme, go for the men.

If you feel the opponent is going to respond by protecting his men, go for kote.

Omote is the hidari men, or the apparant target.

Ura is the kote resulting from him trying to cover his hidari men, or the alternate target.

If you are really industrious, you can sort of "pre-decide" your options for each of your actions and have them linked so they come full circle....The more complete your links are, the less opening you present to your opponent.

Ever notice how tenken's jodan seme conveniently transitions into kasumi if the seme didn't work?

Another thing is, in order to practice being aware of your opponent, you need to give them "time" to respond to your seme...if you transfer too fast from seme to strike, then how can they respond?

I benefitted a lot from Nanbanjin's post on "seme-tame-kuzushii".

After seme, you need to tame, or let the tension build so the opponent collapse his posture (kuzushii) in response to your seme, so you can strike.

FWIW.

[DCPan]

If you are really industrious, you can sort of "pre-decide" your options for each of your actions and have them linked so they come full circle....The more complete your links are, the less opening you present to your opponent.

Or, if you keiko a lot, your actions will link themselves out of simple survival needs!

Katana wa hito wo kitaeru!

[DCPan]

An analogy of what I'm trying to say about omote/ura is like playing chess.

There are certain cornerstones/end-games you can memorize because they happen a lot (i.e. how to check-mate someone when there are only so many pieces left on the board) eventhough each individual game is unique.

That way, when your body recognize a familiar end-game, it's all sutemi from there....

:rolleyes:

[Charlie]

Interestingly, the footnote in my old copy of The Kendo reader (a freebie I downloaded from the net, might be the one in Lucien's post) translates the ichi gan proverb as: Eyes, Legs, Guts, Strength (strength can also be interpreted as perception, footwork, spirit and technique). And yes, Hidashi seems to indicate that footwork is everything, but that the eyes are given the first place. He's getting deep on me, though, Lucien, talking about the superficial eye and the psychic eye, and then even suggesting confusing the opponent with your eyes!

I seems we are talking about mind as well as eyes. I have always thought of the eyes that see openings (suki, neh?) in kendo as what we in the west call "the third eye," an intuition rather than direct observance. (This could be confusing as "the third eye" can also note all kinds of metaphysical stuff.) My point is, I, on my best day, "sense" the kote is opening, either on its own or through some effort of mine, and go after it. This sense is not enough, or not developed enough. I think what sensei is saying is I should look closer and longer.

I said to him at the time that speed played a role in my fighting, that I was always going as fast as possible because I have found that simple speed can decide the match. He replied that I was probably as fast as most of my peers and that it wasn't the most important thing, timing was.

...nah, confused again. Had a thought and it flew away like a balloon I accidentally let go.

I am reminded of a chess game I am playing with a friend right now. He likes to jam the middle board with all kinds of development whereas I am uncomfortable with that, I like to start swapping pieces right away. Similar, isn't it? I am not letting myself, what, David, tame the seme to break the kuzushi?



EDIT: Whoa, I was making my chess analogy the same time you were!

[kuzu70]

This is a really interesting thread. Thanks for the kendo reader guys! I printed it now at work and I shall go home and read it. Well not tonight, because there is keiko. I always get yelled at by my sensei when I try to strike when his kamae is straight. He tells me that I have to break his kamae and center before attacking, which is hard to do on a 7-dan. Basically I take it that sensei is telling me that I need to work on my seme.

There are other threads on seme, but I think this thread looks at seme from a different angle. If you have good seme, you don't have to guess because you can "control" how your opponent will react. I think speed contributes to seme, but there is so much more to it than speed. I think it is your seme, which helps you to sense where the opening will be.

[DCPan]

I think speed contributes to seme, but there is so much more to it than speed. I think it is your seme, which helps you to sense where the opening will be.

Recently, when I was a guest at another dojo, the sensei told me that until about yondan, just hit as much as you can...all shikake waza...no ojiwaza. Don't try to make a clever manuever to land a strike on the sensei, instead try to develop the resolve of your strike with the ki of your motodachi.

I think this adds to the seme conversation quite a bit.

Until the primacy of your attack is such that you have a good enough strike to take advantage of the opening, there is nothing to back up your seme, and hence no seme.

So, if my ki-ken-tai-ichi isn't at a place where I can strike and affect my aite's kigurai, I have no seme.

FWIW.

[The great I AM]

So, if my ki-ken-tai-ichi isn't at a place where I can strike and affect my aite's kigurai, I have no seme.




Theres an awful lot of talk about seme on this one, so I thought I'd like to share a little opinion of mine that I have on the subject, like I said, its an opinion.

As DCPan said above, about kikentai and affecting your aite's kigurai, I personally think this is what seme is all about, affecting your opponent. When we are all beginners we are told to "seme in", and our teacher demonstrates this by stepping in. Having progressed a little over the past few years, and developing my own understanding of seme, I believe that seme is a little more amorphous than a simple agressive step in, for instance I'm sure I heard on an NHK vid of the all japans the hachidan commentator (Fukumoto sensei ka?) talk about someone doing seme as they were going backwards.

As I said before I have come to beleive that seme is not just a step into your maai, but on a more psychological level something that you can do to unsettle your opponent, and I think this can only really be done by watching your opponent and notice what they are doing and how they react to things.
Charlie, maybe this could be what your sensei means? To watch and give pressure accordingly, to make your opening and such a point where your aite is left with nothing.

So to follow on a little (excuse me for rambling!), seme, in my opinion, can be done going backwards, or on the spot as well as going forwards. I often try now in my keiko to do things which don't involve simply stepping forwards (as this also makes it closer for them) which can work to them giving me an opening, such as kaeshi dou. Seme can be used in a number of ways, not just to open a hole in defence but, for instance in the case of men kaeshi dou, to make your opponent do what you wish in order to take ippon, which again can only be acheived by first watching your opponent and their foibles in keiko.

Like I said, just my humble opinion. Now that I've finished being philosofical I'll go and see if people are still slagging me off in the lounge!!

See ya'll

[Charlie]

A valuable contribution, GIA. I agree with you guys about seme. Regretably, I got this advice just a couple weeks ago and, as the university where we practice has been on spring break, have only got to practice once since then.

All this talk of seme makes me feel like I'm going to burst a brain vessel trying to control my opponent with telepathic waves. But if you've ever had your seme just wrecked by a seventh dan or such, you know it just wilts under the seemngly effortless pressure.

[hyuna]

All this talk of seme makes me feel like I'm going to burst a brain vessel trying to control my opponent with telepathic waves.
Personally, I am not apt to describe seme as some magical telepathic force, or to see openings as use of intuition or some third eye.

When I am driving and I see someone in the next lane drifting towards me, I feel uncomfortable and pressured to react. There is no psychic phenomenon there. I see danger, and I psychologically react to it. Moreover, and I think this is important, the driver of the car may or may not be doing it on purpose. Their intention does not change my perception of the danger of the situation.

I recall Ebihara sensei saying once that seme is not just applied, it has to be received. I took this to mean that someone who cannot perceive the danger in a situation cannot feel seme. Perhaps an obvious way to express this is by asking how one can seme a rock. There are two obvious possibilities there, of course. One is that they cannot perceive the danger because there is no danger. I think this fits what DCPan was talking about eariler about how we are still at a level where attacking is still the main thing for us. If our attacks are not effective, there is no danger, hence no possibility for seme. But another possibility is that there is danger, but the receiver is not able to perceive and understand it (which, I suppose, is a reason why it is important to practice at the right level for your partner, and a reason why beginners often seem unpredictable).

This causes me to think of seme as, physically speaking, nothing more than controlling the situation such that it is advantageous for you. This is the same thing as controlling your opponent: to control the situation means to constrain what your opponent can do. It is just a non-psychic way of looking at it. Of course, although some of this control is physical, some is psychological. I find it is easier to seme people who are afraid of me, and nearly impossible for me to seme anyone I am afraid of. That is, in some instances, pure psychology: my opponent might have the better kendo but I can take advantage of their fear to make them feel they are in danger when they are not (not until they react to the faux danger and create a real opening).

So I think it is effortless at higher levels. Their application of seme is effortless because practice makes movements into situations that are advantageous for them "natural" (we would say that it is easy for them to make correct movements and adopt correct postures). These situations naturally cause us to feel uncomfortable because we perceive the fact that we are disadvantaged and are in imminent danger. But, just as the car next to me sidles over and makes me feel uncomfortable, I can be made to feel uncomfortable without any conscious effort on the part of my partner; just the correct kind of movement at the right time is enough. When that sort of movement is natural and automatic, it is effortless in any normal sense of the word.

I think this is enough blather for now. I think seeing might be equally "natural" but I will leave that for a different posting...

[Neil Gendzwill]

I recall Ebihara sensei saying once that seme is not just applied, it has to be received. I took this to mean that someone who cannot perceive the danger in a situation cannot feel seme. Perhaps an obvious way to express this is by asking how one can seme a rock.

That's an interesting comment. In one of the other threads, someone suggested we should always want our opponents to play their best kendo. But when playing lower level people, I can't play my best game. Beginners don't respond to the sorts of subtle pressures that are needed when playing advanced people. A little weight shift or tip pressure results in ... nothing, just another straight-ahead men attack from way outside :)

A friend of mine failed his first crack at godan, and the comment from the judges was "you didn't show seme". His response - "I couldn't show seme, my opponent was just standing there so I hit him, over and over". At those level exams, who you draw for an opponent is important. If they aren't any good, it's hard to show how good you are.

In fact, you might use this argument to prove that kendo runs deeper than simple military sword training. On the battlefield against recruits trained in a few weeks or months, all this high-falutin' stuff matters very little. You can get killed just as easily by a beginner with wonky timing and a baseball bat swing as a subtle expert. But it's much more interesting fighting the subtle expert.

[hyuna]

I am reminded of a chess game I am playing with a friend right now. He likes to jam the middle board with all kinds of development whereas I am uncomfortable with that, I like to start swapping pieces right away.
Well, ok, maybe it is worth talking a little about sight now because of these chess analogies... I think of it as being a lot like chess, really.

I think any of us who have played for any significant amount of time can recognize dangerous middle game positions without necessarily calculating them out. This comes just as a matter of experience. Kind of what DCPan mentioned when it comes to end games, except the matter of end games is really about memorizing how the end game needs to be done and less about recognizing if the game is theoretically winnable, since the end game must be played precisely.

But we can see situations on the board where you know your opponent is in trouble, even without calculating. That seems to me the same as seeing an opening, and I think it is just a matter of enough practice to recognize recurring positions and the typical way those positions play out. In other words, the solution, as we are often told, is just more practice...

There is an interesting analogy with this thing about complication on the board versus simplicity. The more complicated the board, the more room for error. Because of that fact, the general rule is to simplify if you are winning and to complicate if you are losing. In other words, if you are winning, you should go on the attack, aggressively clear all the junk off the board, and press your victory home. But if you are losing, you need to play the board until you can gain some advantage, then go for it. Interestingly enough, I think that is also what we should do in kendo. If there is an opening you have to attack decisively. If there is not, you need to work the situation until there is an opportunity, then you have to attack decisively.

[DCPan]

Perhaps an obvious way to express this is by asking how one can seme a rock. There are two obvious possibilities there, of course. One is that they cannot perceive the danger because there is no danger. ...

Awesome point! (Pardon the pun).

When you perceive the opponent's intent/ability to strike you, that makes you respond.

A similar difficulty appears in the early learning stages of aikido. The throw is facilitated by the uke's attempt to preserve himself from breakage...so, with a beginner, they don't understand the implied breakage or atemi in your movement, so they don't give you anything to throw them with.

I think that's why it's important to practice with senior people...they give you something you can feed off of....

Related tangent...Bruce Lee comments on the uselessness of holding postures...I think of the posture and the twirls that some martial arts do as "display behavior" (as in animal display behavior to show prowness to intimidate or avoid conflict).

In many ways, Jodan utilize display behavior to its advantage.

Ultra tangent...have you noticed that in shiai, some people are on your radar and others not? I personally feel and believe that you can feel someone that's trying to cut you...however, I have a HARD time feeling out people that are just trying to tap you without really trying to feel like it's "cutting".

FWIW.

[Old Warrior]

Personally, I am not apt to describe seme as some magical telepathic force, or to see openings as use of intuition or some third eye.


I find that en equally effective tool to making your opponent feel "in danger", is to make them feel safe.

As an example: when I advance, I frequently keep the distance between the kensen on my shoto and my opponent's kensen, the same. I consciously take up the distance by bending my elbow. Eventually, I get close enough to hit men without having to move my feet, at all. At that distance, even fat old guys can score.

Similarly, by pointing the shoto kensen up, and bending the elbow, it is very hard for an opponenent (not used to seeing nito) to gauge the distance, where I can hit and he can't (without stepping forward).

In each of the above instances, the adversary feels comfortable because he does not think he is in range to be hit and the prospect of a fat, old, white haired guy cutting him before he can move - seems very unlikely. There must be a name for this concept other than "treachery".

[DCPan]

In each of the above instances, the adversary feels comfortable because he does not think he is in range to be hit and the prospect of a fat, old, white haired guy cutting him before he can move - seems very unlikely. There must be a name for this concept other than "treachery".

My iaido teacher would ask, "Can you draw your sword without disturbing the cat?"

[DCPan]

Kind of what DCPan mentioned when it comes to end games, except the matter of end games is really about memorizing how the end game needs to be done and less about recognizing if the game is theoretically winnable, since the end game must be played precisely.

Okay...drum-roll.

The only real difference between Kendo and Kenjutsu is this:

In Kenjutsu, you are learning other people's end games by rote.

In Kendo, you get to figure out your own end games by keiko.

FWIW.

[JSchmidt]

See, if there's one thing I learned from starting jodan (too?) early, it was the need for seme. This became especially obvious when I moved to NZ. For the first couple of months, I was happily able to hit the (senior) kyu-grades at will, but then they picked up on it and they became just as hard to hit as the senior dan-grades. In chudan, we (especially early on) rely heavily on shinai-contact to control and suppress the opponent, but you can't do that from jodan!. You have to use your feet to create the pressure and control, an ability I was obviously lacking. In chudan, I could still overpower the juniors by my superior control of the center, but in jodan, I couldnt!. I realised that I had to learn to create opportunities with my feet.
A lot of it, is about body-language. Your (physical) seme wont work if the posture you use is not the same you use when you are cutting. This means that you may have to change both the way you move and the way you cut!.
I went back (and still often do) and had a look at my basic cut:
What do I when I cut. What are my key signals. Which of those signals can I use (for seme) and which do I have to reduce.
I also started to 'study' people's trigger points. When do people react?. What kind of movement (or lack of) do they react to, etc...and then from there started to work on positioning myself so that I could take advantage of those situations. It means ( and still do, as I'm still experiementing with it) getting hit a lot...but it all adds up to the library.
I have also done similar do DC-pan, with ura/omote, but are also trying to avoid getting locked into a pattern, which I think is a risk when you 'systemize' it like that.

Anyways..must get back to work!

Jakob

[DCPan]

I have also done similar do DC-pan, with ura/omote,

LOL, being binary is an over-simplification....knowing your options keeps you from being caught flat-footed, that's all.

[DCPan]

I have also done similar do DC-pan, with ura/omote, but are also trying to avoid getting locked into a pattern, which I think is a risk when you 'systemize' it like that.

After thought...pattern is not always bad, if you have a complete one.

Some of the top players I've seen in So Cal actually repeat a couple of routines in shiai against unfamiliar opponent.

It's like watching a fisherman pulling up the net or a cowboy with a lasso.

As time progress in the match, they fine tune their pattern to the opponent's response and score....as experience accumulate, it takes them less and less time to catch on to the opponent's response to their "pattern".

It's neat to actually "see" how they lasso the other guy in....

FWIW.

[Charlie]

David, can you give an example of this pattern?

Appreciate the talk on seme and it makes perfect sense. I was telling one of the yudansha recently that the reason he always does poorly against a certain player, in his mind, is because said player does a lot of wonky things with maai and frustrates the opponent (I have told this same person to use this to his advantage but not to forget to get back to basics to score his ippon). I pointed out that your opponent can affect the way your kendo looks and feels. I look awesome fighting Tagawa-sensei (even though I'm getting clobbered).

Arthur:

I, too, didn't want to make too much metaphysical out of my reference to "the third eye," it just seemed the most apt expression.

[DCPan]

David, can you give an example of this pattern?

LOL, honestly, I'm not there yet. I observe it in other people, but I haven't been able to figured it out for myself....

Two guys have actually told me of their kenpo, but I never wrote it down, and consequently forgotten the pattern. Besides, it was for tall, thin types, which I'm not.

I guess I'm really fortunate to have seen some many awesome kenshi in action.

I remember one guy from Obukan a few years ago...you could literally see him "seme" his opponent around until his opponent is stuck and flat-footed before he struck...it was totally beautiful. This was in the 4 dan + group too!
He really WON before he STRUCK!!!

Sorry I can't be more specific, but I can share how I intend to figure it out, physically.

I intend to develop my stamina so that I have enough endurance to not let up on pressure on my opponent until I get a definitive,final strike in OR am able to get back out to to-maai. Until I have enough stamina to do that, having a complete kenpo will still do me no good because I can't physically do it.

In other words, by having the intent to not let up once you get in attacking range until you're out of range again, your body will figure out this "kabala of movement" out of simple necessity, over time.

FWIW.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Well I just started Iaido and am gonna start kendo real soon yet reading about one:eyes, two:feet, three: spirit, four: strength makes alot of sense.

I see ppl talk here about sensing an opening but I believe you should keep your eyes open and SEE the opening or set your opponent up for an opening; Sensei said you missed openings so they WERE there; he didnt anticipate.
What sensei meant was that ppl tend to attack with the combinations they have learned over time and the mistake ppl make is that they only attack with those combinations. They concentrate too much on their own techniques instead of looking at the opponents moves. Timing is of the essence here.
Power and speed is not the most important skill here; observe ppl in fights; learn when the opponent has a 'weak' moment and then apply your footwork to get in position and score the point.
Power and speed is something that decreases over time and 'older' fighters need different skillz to overcome the lack of speed & power. Thus timing and a great eye is of most importance to kendoka. Your opponent practised kendo in a similar manner you did so basically you can tell what combination he is gonna use on you; this is not always true, I know.

[Lucien]

Well I just started Iaido and am gonna start kendo real soon yet reading about one:eyes, two:feet, three: spirit, four: strength makes alot of sense.

I see ppl talk here about sensing an opening but I believe you should keep your eyes open and SEE the opening or set your opponent up for an opening; Sensei said you missed openings so they WERE there; he didnt anticipate.
What sensei meant was that ppl tend to attack with the combinations they have learned over time and the mistake ppl make is that they only attack with those combinations. They concentrate too much on their own techniques instead of looking at the opponents moves. Timing is of the essence here.
Power and speed is not the most important skill here; observe ppl in fights; learn when the opponent has a 'weak' moment and then apply your footwork to get in position and score the point.
Power and speed is something that decreases over time and 'older' fighters need different skillz to overcome the lack of speed & power. Thus timing and a great eye is of most importance to kendoka. Your opponent practised kendo in a similar manner you did so basically you can tell what combination he is gonna use on you; this is not always true, I know.
Rurouni Kenshin it kind of amazes me that you have added to this debate given that you've never done kendo. I don't want to diss you, but don't you think it's a bit patronising?

[Rurouni Kenshin]

I dont mean to be patronising as Ichi Gan, Ni Soku can be applied in more than only Kendo............ actually its common sence when you think about it........

Example: Once upon a time a guy picked a fight with me; he was a kickboxer with way more fightingskills than myself though he wasnt able to land a single punch on me. why? Cuz he focused on power and all I did was watch him; I didnt even block, just evaded every punch and kick he tried on me and we were a foot apart.......... and no I dont mean to sound cocky either, just want to point out that watching your opponents movement and combinations can teach you more than you think. Kendo, iaido, any martial art comes from within and should be natural to the one using it. In a fight you dont have the time to focus on your own technique and should be focusing on your opponent.
Like driving a car you concentrate on traffic and not on your drivingskills right?

[JSchmidt]

didnt even block, just evaded every punch and kick he tried on me and we were a foot apart.
Back, when I was in 'Nam...

[DCPan]

I see ppl talk here about sensing an opening but I believe you should keep your eyes open and SEE the opening or set your opponent up for an opening;

[SNIP]

What sensei meant was that ppl tend to attack with the combinations they have learned over time and the mistake ppl make is that they only attack with those combinations.

What do you think we've been talking about? :confused2

When you move a certain way, there are certainly a couple of optimum response that are more logical than others. It's all about being aware of those possibilities. You can't "have" a response for every thing, but you can prepare yourself for the logical responses, and improvise on the not so tactically sound responses because well...they are not tactically sound.

If you don't keep your eyes open, you would never pick up on the subtle cues that would give away your opponent's intended response.

FWIW.

[Lucien]

Going back to the discussion, Hyuna said, 'Personally, I am not apt to describe seme as some magical telepathic force, or to see openings as use of intuition or some third eye.'

I'd like to give an example of something that happened to me recently and invite your interpretations based on your experiences.

The other day I was in shiai against someone who I had never met before. The moment we rose from sonkyo I knew - I just knew - my opponent was going to immediately attack kote. Knowing this before she attacked meant I could squeeze in my tokui waza, kote nuki men. The fight was over in about 1 second.

How was that possible?

[Old Warrior]

... The other day I was in shiai against someone who I had never met before. The moment we rose from sonkyo I knew - I just knew - my opponent was going to immediately attack kote. Knowing this before she attacked meant I could squeeze in my tokui waza, kote nuki men. The fight was over in about 1 second.

How was that possible?
The opponent could have lowered her eyes to your kote or even made a perceptable movement of her kensen to your right. If you are a real student of the art, your eye can be trained easier/quicker than your body. I am usually more than twice as old as my opponent and my 57 year old reflexes are not stellar, but if I start my technique before him/her, (because I know where he/she is headed), I will always get there first.

[Lucien]

It might be just experience - my memory of shiai is always a bit blurry - but as much as I remember we rose, I made eye contact, knew she was about to strike kote and reacted. That was all.

It happened so quickly the tip of her shinai brushed the 'knuckles' of my kote.

[hyuna]

I'd like to give an example of something that happened to me recently and invite your interpretations based on your experiences.

The other day I was in shiai against someone who I had never met before. The moment we rose from sonkyo I knew - I just knew - my opponent was going to immediately attack kote. Knowing this before she attacked meant I could squeeze in my tokui waza, kote nuki men. The fight was over in about 1 second.
How is it possible to know what someone will do when you have never met them before?

I think it can be explained in the fact that we all do kendo and we all practice kendo in more-or-less the same way. That is, we all recognize the same kinds of movements as a kote opening, and we all use the same basic technique to hit kote. That means that you do not need to practice with someone in order to have some reasonable expectation as to how they will behave. Of course everyone's kendo is a little bit different. But the point is that when they raise their shinai to hit, if it is a little bit forward or back or high or low or left or right, it is all basically the same thing. So if you have your kote open and you see your opponent move in a certain way, it is not that surprising to be expecting a hit to your kote. You do not even need to leave your kote open on purpose, because you can probably feel subconsciously when your shinai is a bit off. I don't know if this is what happened in your situation, I am just trying to say that I can imagine several ways that you could reasonably anticipate someone hitting your kote even when you have never met them before.

There is another consideration that I feel is more serious and far more confusing having to do with whether or not you "knew" the kote was coming or just reacted. I am not sure I want to get into it because it might just turn into a big essay on the meaning of knowledge and "intention" and a lot of other serious, and kind of depressing philosophical topics (depressing to me, anyway). Maybe it would be sufficient to say that what I meant before is that I do not think that "seeing openings" as anything more than training yourself to have very keen perception and training yourself to have a set of conditioned behaviors that are very good at making very precise reactions in response to subtle nuances in what you have seen. I do not think there is a sense in which you "read your opponent's mind": I feel that being able to read subtle visual, aural, etc cues in your opponent's posture, balance, breath, etc, are sufficient to read their intention and that telepathy is not necessary.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't think you can read someone's mind either. But you can control it through seme. When it seems as if sensei are reading your intentions, really they're just suggesting you attack in a certain way and then exploiting that attack they know is coming.

[DCPan]

I don't think you can read someone's mind either. But you can control it through seme. When it seems as if sensei are reading your intentions, really they're just suggesting you attack in a certain way and then exploiting that attack they know is coming.

Speaking of which, I have a semi-funny story.

My friend and I were messing around with the meter-sticks doing pretend sword fight in outside physics class.

The Japanese Language TA (nanadan kyoshi) walked by and said, “That’s not swordsmanship.”

Then, he grabbed a 12 inch ruler and gestured for me to attack him.

I did shomen, he slapped my sword to my rear right, exposing his right flank.

I was thinking, oh yeah! I cut doh….

Then, I found out I walked right into kodachi kata #3 (you can tell this was before I learned any kata).

For the rest of the year, I got myself one on one kata lessons.

FWIW.

[Lucien]

Speaking of which, I have a semi-funny story.
Shouldn't that be seme-funny story? <Groans>

[CryingFreeman]

How is it possible to know what someone will do when you have never met them before?

I think it can be explained in the fact that we all do kendo and we all practice kendo in more-or-less the same way. That is, we all recognize the same kinds of movements as a kote opening, and we all use the same basic technique to hit kote. That means that you do not need to practice with someone in order to have some reasonable expectation as to how they will behave. Of course everyone's kendo is a little bit different. But the point is that when they raise their shinai to hit, if it is a little bit forward or back or high or low or left or right, it is all basically the same thing. So if you have your kote open and you see your opponent move in a certain way, it is not that surprising to be expecting a hit to your kote. You do not even need to leave your kote open on purpose, because you can probably feel subconsciously when your shinai is a bit off. I don't know if this is what happened in your situation, I am just trying to say that I can imagine several ways that you could reasonably anticipate someone hitting your kote even when you have never met them before.

There is another consideration that I feel is more serious and far more confusing having to do with whether or not you "knew" the kote was coming or just reacted. I am not sure I want to get into it because it might just turn into a big essay on the meaning of knowledge and "intention" and a lot of other serious, and kind of depressing philosophical topics (depressing to me, anyway). Maybe it would be sufficient to say that what I meant before is that I do not think that "seeing openings" as anything more than training yourself to have very keen perception and training yourself to have a set of conditioned behaviors that are very good at making very precise reactions in response to subtle nuances in what you have seen. I do not think there is a sense in which you "read your opponent's mind": I feel that being able to read subtle visual, aural, etc cues in your opponent's posture, balance, breath, etc, are sufficient to read their intention and that telepathy is not necessary.

i think you are absolutely right i think a lot of it is developed unconciously because your responses to the various stimuli created by your opponents actions are subtle and individually tell you nothing, but all together give you an impression based on your experience , i.e like lucien and the predicted kote

[Charlie]

I agree. In kendo, and probably in a lot of martial arts and life at large, there's lots of things for which there could be both a metaphysical and physical explanation. Kiai, for example. To the people that handed down kiai through the ages, the kiai was a metaphysical action, a summoning of spiritual forces. But it also makes sense phsyically. One is at one's strongest when one is expelling breath at the same time as an action, ala a weightlifter expelling breath on the lift, so it makes sense to kiai when cutting/striking/throwing, etc. This is one example. So is there anything metaphysical to it, too, as the ancients believed? That's up to you.

The telepathy in kendo is, as was said, is the reading of perhaps dozens of phsyical clues by the eyes and reacting to them. And the subconscious mind is more adept at this than the conscious mind. Lucien, I suggest that all of this put together was interpreted by your subconscious mind and you reacted appropriately. Congratulations, mushin, now you'll spend the rest of your days looking for it again, sometimes grasping it, sometimes not.

Jigeiko last night with "ichi gan" in mind. Nothing to add at this point, still in process and probably will be for quite some time.

[Charlie]

P.S. Rurouni, hey, don't feel as if you're being shut out of the conversation, I appreciate your thoughts. It's hard to know if you're covering something that's already been covered but you have the right idea. Remember what I said earlier: beginners - and I am still very much a beginner - should attack, attack, attack, and not worry too much about looking for openings.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

I agree. In kendo, and probably in a lot of martial arts and life at large, there's lots of things for which there could be both a metaphysical and physical explanation.
...
The telepathy in kendo is, as was said, is the reading of perhaps dozens of phsyical clues by the eyes and reacting to them.
And a similar principle is applied in contexts in which no metaphysical aspect is ever attached. A common example in the US is in football when defenders in the backfield try to "read" the quarterback to see where a pass is going before it is thrown. If they are able to do so successfully they can almost always prevent the pass being caught and sometime intercept it. Nobody ever suggests that a free safety melded his ki into the quarterbacks ki in order to feel what he was going to do, as has been suggested to me in kendo, but it doesn't mean they can't tell where the pass is going to be thrown, at least some of the time.

[JSchmidt]

Similar when I was playing baseball (2nd base)..during the pitchers windup, you'd often get a good idea of which direction the ball would go.

Jakob

[Rurouni Kenshin]

I did that in basketball and coach called me a lousy defender cuz I never stuck to my guy; I let they guy pass me and almost allow him to score but I focussed my attention on that 1 moment to grab his ass on the way to the basket. They always thought they had my 'weak' spot and could score easily but I knew better.....and it saved me alot of effort and energy on the long run, instead of defending tuff all the time; I was able to take it easy and just stay focussed.

[Charlie]

Similar when I was playing baseball (2nd base)..during the pitchers windup, you'd often get a good idea of which direction the ball would go.

Jakob

During the wind-up???

[Nanbanjin]

1) 眼　gan
2) 足　soku
3) 胆　tan
4) 力　riki

This seems to be commonly interpreted to mean "Eyes, legs, courage, strength". In this case "tan" is an abbreviation of "tanryoku" which means "courage".
A more anatomical interpretation is to treat "tan" as an abbreviation of "tanden", which is the part of your lower stomach above your pubic bone and below your belly-button.

[JSchmidt]

During the wind-up???
Sorry, poorly formulated: As a fielder, yes, I would often get a good idea where the ball would go during the wind-up and would 'lean' in that direction.. I believe it's exactly the same that happens when guys like Jeter get those enormous jumps on the ball. (Not that I was remotely anywhere near that level of ability!!).

Jakob

[Charlie]

Sorry, poorly formulated: As a fielder, yes, I would often get a good idea where the ball would go during the wind-up and would 'lean' in that direction.. I believe it's exactly the same that happens when guys like Jeter get those enormous jumps on the ball. (Not that I was remotely anywhere near that level of ability!!).

Jakob

You mean you would get a feeling of where the pitcher was sending it and how the batter would hit it? Because to me I don't think you can guess very well where a ball will go until it's over the bag and off the bat. Don't all wind-ups look pretty much the same?

[Theodore]

This book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1570629986/kendoblog-20/104-1000757-1713505) has a great integration of the concepts of ma-ai, seme and ki. Highly recommended and echoes many of the concepts explained in the postings on this link.

[DCPan]

This book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1570629986/kendoblog-20/104-1000757-1713505) has a great integration of the concepts of ma-ai, seme and ki. Highly recommended and echoes many of the concepts explained in the postings on this link.

LOL, I'm reading the same author's book on Miyamoto Musashi.

I'm on the chapter regarding the labyrinth of the grip and diagonal tension right now....

[Theodore]

I will have to get that book. Thanks for the information.

[DCPan]

David, can you give an example of this pattern?


After thought...the pattern isn't suppose to be overly complicated you know.

After all, theorectically, you need to do all of this in one breath.

In other words, in the span on one breath, you need to get to a place where you could breath again after your movement (i.e. to-ma, right after tai-atari...etc) you don't just stop and reset.

FWIW.

[Charlie]

Well, some recent thoughts:

When I jigeiko with many of the mudansha in my club I can indeed see openings and hit them even when I reduce the speed of my attack.

Against my tyondan coaches, not so. I sort of sense where the opening is but it's much more intense and frantic on my part.

[Theodore]

Kendo (and Western fencing) remind me of what is called a classical education (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=286). So long aas you are in the "grammer stage" then you cannot engage in either meaningful logical or rhetorical discussions. As Charlie points out, with the mudansha, hitting is easy, with the higher ranked kenshi it's much harder. Similarly, if your education is such that you have not mastered "grammer" and/or "logic" then rhetorical discussions are nearly impossible.

Kendo as the "trivium." I will have to develop this as a paper.

[Charlie]

Dude, that's a great idea!