Men Pain

[James1287]

recently got a new lightweight set of bogu, and it works great, there is only one problem. My men seems to be very weak at the back. My sensai told me to make sure I keep my head up and i try, but should it hurt that much when you get hit in the back of the head. It actually felt as though there was little to no protection and it felt as though i was being clubbed with a bat(no exageration it was that bad). Is this simply because it is lightweight bogu or does every kendoka feel this same pain when they take a strike on the back of the head. Your thoughts? I mean I will try to keep my men up in the future but when a guy takes a shot at the area of your chest that is unprotected and you cringe what else can you do.

[Musha]

I'm not sure what you mean, hit on the back of the head? If you are actuly getting hit from behind, that is illigal in modern kendo.

If when you do kirikaeshi you feel like you are actully being punched in the head. It means your men is either too big, too old, or too weak for you.

What grade is the stitching on your bougu? I started with 4mm and have gone down to 3mm. Anything bigger than 5mm is for children who do not get hit as much and as hard ie don't need as much protection...

[DCPan]

Anything bigger than 5mm is for children who do not get hit as much and as hard ie don't need as much protection...

*COUGH* MINE *COUGH*

There are riot police instructors wearing 3 bu (9mm) bogu...so I don't recommend making generalizations about stitch width.

BTW, why start two threads on the same thing? You know the KW Forum guys pay for this service..., please treasure this resource.

[Musha]

9mm what the? Why stich it at all with that lengh. My sensei's bogu is 1.5mm. Maybe I'm mixing bu with mm but I've never heard of a 9mm bogu the largest is 6mm I thought.

Why would the police practice with a 9mm bogu that must have been made by some robot some where in deepest Korea?

I think one of us must be making some mistake. Any photos of a 9mm bogu?

[DCPan]

9mm what the? Why stich it at all with that lengh. My sensei's bogu is 1.5mm. Maybe I'm mixing bu with mm but I've never heard of a 9mm bogu the largest is 6mm I thought.

Why would the police practice with a 9mm bogu that must have been made by some robot some where in deepest Korea?

I think one of us must be making some mistake. Any photos of a 9mm bogu?

*SIGH*...you are in Japan, right? Go check out April 2004 issue of Kendo Nippon.

I also mentioned the 3.0bu bogu in other threads before...no mistake.

[DCPan]

*SIGH*...you are in Japan, right? Go check out April 2004 issue of Kendo Nippon.

I also mentioned the 3.0bu bogu in other threads before...no mistake.

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2940&page=2&pp=15&highlight=stitch+width

[Musha]

I've only been in Japan this year so I haven't had a chance to buy more than Kendo Nippon Feb edition.. Oh new one out soon :D.

I talked to my sensei about buying bogu in Japan and he said anything over 5mm is no good. Most magazines show that 5mm+ is mostly for shogaku and chugakusei young kendo ka.

5mm-3mm is for general use
3-1mm and under is for seriouse kendo-ka.

If James said he had a 5mm+ machine made I would have thought that was his problem.

Maybe hand made 9mm bogu is good but I always thought like you said in that other post that closer-stitching is “better” :ermm:.

[Alex_McGrady]

...There are riot police instructors wearing 3 bu (9mm) bogu...so I don't recommend making generalizations about stitch width...The police training with the white padded gear may be stitched at 3 bu but I hope you would be wear that stuff to play kendo in. Had a friend try that once.... pretty funny. Those head protectors are not designed to take a shot from a regular kendo shinai. The short weapons used for the training are...well, short and padded. They do not require the same protections as a kendo men. Tried searching for a photo on-line but could not find exactly what I was looking for...

DC-san, you have 1bu set now, right?

I think anything over 2.5bu is for kids and animals..... Get your dog a set of 9mm today!!!! :evolved:

Alex

[DCPan]

The police training with the white padded gear may be stitched at 3 bu but I hope you would be wear that stuff to play kendo in. Had a friend try that once.... pretty funny. Those head protectors are not designed to take a shot from a regular kendo shinai. The short weapons used for the training are...well, short and padded. They do not require the same protections as a kendo men. Tried searching for a photo on-line but could not find exactly what I was looking for...

DC-san, you have 1bu set now, right?

I think anything over 2.5bu is for kids and animals..... Get your dog a set of 9mm today!!!! :evolved:

Alex

Yes, I know about the white-padded gear that they use for hand-to-hand training.

Please actually READ the April 2004 issue of Kendo Nippon.

Arima sensei prefers 3.0bu bogu to practice kendo in for his own reasons.

Yes, I have 1.0bu bogu, but my 6mm machine-stitched mine protects better than my 1.0bu.

FWIW.

[Alex_McGrady]

Yes, I know about the white-padded gear that they use for hand-to-hand training.

Please actually READ the April 2004 issue of Kendo Nippon.

Arima sensei prefers 3.0bu bogu to practice kendo in for his own reasons.

Yes, I have 1.0bu bogu, but my 6mm machine-stitched mine protects better than my 1.0bu.

FWIW.I bought some 1.2bu the other month and the dude in the shop explained that the farther apart the stitching, the more comfortable and easy it is to wear.... I wanted the 1.2bu and he was trying to sell me a 2.5bu. It felt great but the look was not as nice. He said that the "older" teachers purchase the wider stitchings because they are easy to wear.....younger joes like the look of the smaller stitching. If your story about Arima sensei is on point....then he is most likely an older instructor who likes the wider stitching because it wears better..... right? I would not be surprised if your 6mm felt better and could displace the force of the hit better....but you would not wear it to a special training, would you?

I do not really mind what anyone gets.... but usually, beginners start with a cheap wide version, then after a few years and a few bucks.... get a higher priced and closer stitching.....then get really old and go back to an expensive version of the wider style of stitching.....

.....wouldn't that be hilarious of a dog in bogu.....

Alex

[DCPan]

I would not be surprised if your 6mm felt better and could displace the force of the hit better....but you would not wear it to a special training, would you?

What then, is the point of the tighter stitching, if looser stitching disperse the force better and wears better?

April 2004, Page 26 and 27
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2129963762

[Alex_McGrady]

What then, is the point of the tighter stitching, if looser stitching disperse the force better and wears better?

April 2004, Page 26 and 27
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2129963762It looks good! By the same question, why by handmade bogu when you can get machine made that costs less and works just fine..... because it looks good!!! Not just the stitching looks better but the overall bogu looks better. And everyone wants to look better.... Why buy an expensive bamboo dou when you can use a plastic Yamado? Because it looks better and feels nice....

Even if the bogu looks better, it is more stiff because of the close stitchings.... well, thats ok, we are still young.....we can try to break them in for a while. We just want to look good.


Alex

[ISSAC RU]

I have a question. With all the posts on kw i read , does it come to a conclusion where the wider stitching gives you more comfortable feeling?
What is a difference between a handstitched 6mm bogu and a machine stitched 6mm bogu ( If both of them use the same material ) ?
Does handstitch make the bogu more comfortable and endurable?

[kanyil]

why by handmade bogu when you can get machine made that costs less and works just fine..... because it looks good!!! Not just the stitching looks better but the overall bogu looks better. And everyone wants to look better.... Why buy an expensive bamboo dou when you can use a plastic Yamado? Because it looks better and feels nice....
Good question! Why indeed? Although I have just demoted my 1.2 bu handstitched men into my back-up men following the receipt and use of my 6mm machine-stitched Mine.

Although one of my seiseis showed me a pair of 1 bu tezashi kotes sometime ago which, much to my amazement, were extremely soft and apparently protects very well. It supposedly was a real masterpiece and he won it as a prize in one of the national championships he went to some 10 years ago. Apart from the deerskin palms which needed to be replaced, the kote is still going strong.

While look has something to do with it, I believe tezashi bogus were originally the epitome of worksmanship and quality back in the days when machine-stitched bogus were relatively underdeveloped and aimed at the cheaper market segment. I believe this is no longer the case. After all, if everything else around us is likely machine-made and is capable of being of good quality, why not bogu?


What is a difference between a handstitched 6mm bogu and a machine stitched 6mm bogu ( If both of them use the same material ) ?
Assuming both are using the same material, design, technology, worksmanship, etc, etc and ceterus paribus, etc etc.

The answer to your question is..............cost, and the belief that you are wearing something that somebody devoted a portion of his life in the making.

[tamaki]

.....wouldn't that be hilarious of a dog in bogu.....

AlexDOG IN BOGU...

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1


AND..HOW CAN I MAKE IT TO APPEAR IN MY MESSAGE?THE FULL PICTURE,I MEAN,NOT JUST THE LINK

[JSchmidt]

5mm-3mm is for general use
3-1mm and under is for seriouse kendo-ka.

If James said he had a 5mm+ machine made I would have thought that was his problem.

Maybe hand made 9mm bogu is good but I always thought like you said in that other post that closer-stitching is “better” :ermm:.
Wrong. What's happening with a lot of the cheap production line bogu;s is that in order to provide adequate protection, they increase the stitching. With quality made bogu (hand or machine stitched), the tightness of the stitches is carefully controlled by the bogu-maker, depending on where on the futon it is and the same goes with the layering and quality of the futon.
I replaced my 2.5mm Korean men (from Sehyun) with a 4mm lightweight Japanese men (A1 from Kanagawa-Hakkado) and the 4mm is way superior in every single aspect.
It's more comfortable, it's (alot) lighter, it fits better, but most importantly, it protects *way* better.

Jakob

[Taek]

One more here to join DC Pan and JSchmidt. I've just started using A-1 and I reckon my 1.2 bu hand stitched men is going to be my back up men from now. :silly:

[LNGUYEN]

I see some light weight Men have very thin pad at the part just past the hitting area. If you got hit a bit too deep, you will feel the hard pinch. I think light weight bogu was designed for shiai only, not for general practice. I think you should consider about Men pad.

[DCPan]

It looks good! By the same question, why by handmade bogu when you can get machine made that costs less and works just fine..... because it looks good!!! Not just the stitching looks better but the overall bogu looks better. And everyone wants to look better.... Why buy an expensive bamboo dou when you can use a plastic Yamado? Because it looks better and feels nice....

WRONG.

Hand-stitched bogu was "theorectically" better than machined-stitched bogu because of the "raised bump" effect it produces. Think bubble wrap.

So, you can see the margin of diminishing return when tighter stitching makes the raised-bump smaller and the futon stiffer.

So, to tell a "good" hand-stitched set from a set that just "look" hand-stitched, claw your nail down the futon...if it catches, it's good, if your nail doesn't catch on the bump, no good.

As others have said, people start using cheap material for bogu for $$$, so they tighten the stitch to compensate for the poor quality of material.

A good bogu should be SOFT and FLEXIBLE with high point-pressure resistance.

Stiff bogu is like an old VOLVO...doesn't matter that the car is fine if the passenger in the cabin is shaken-up like a scrambled egg in an accident....that's why new cars have CRUMPLE ZONE to absorb the impact.

Frankly, stitch width don't tell you as much about the quality of the bogu as it use to...the material used is a more telling story.

Some of the cheap hand-stitched bogu out there now is made with a hand-held shooting gun...so it looks hand-stitched, but it is really hand-guided machine stitch with hand-stitch bump pattern that looks fine, but is no good.

I'll take gunome-sashi from now on....

FWIW.

[Musha]

JSchmidt, I replaced my 2.5mm Korean men (from Sehyun) with a 4mm lightweight Japanese men (A1 from Kanagawa-Hakkado) and the 4mm is way superior in every single aspect.

Thats because the Korean men was probably made more economy more than quality. Its also the case with this mine bogu which I have never heard of that it is made for quality over economy what ever the stiching type.

If you went to the same factory and checked there catalog you would usualy see three sections. Childrens 5mm+, Adults medium range 5mm-3mm or less. High quality bogu under 2mm.
I've been looking recently at factory bugu and thats the way it seems to me.

If I was looking for custom bogu maybe that is another story but I would say, generaly you would not want to go looking for a 5mm machine stiched bogu if you could afford a smaller stich machine bogu.

I've never heard of light weight bogu either so maybe that is totaly different too.

[Alex_McGrady]

WRONG.

Hand-stitched bogu was "theorectically" better than machined-stitched bogu because of the "raised bump" effect it produces. Think bubble wrap.

So, you can see the margin of diminishing return when tighter stitching makes the raised-bump smaller and the futon stiffer.

So, to tell a "good" hand-stitched set from a set that just "look" hand-stitched, claw your nail down the futon...if it catches, it's good, if your nail doesn't catch on the bump, no good.

As others have said, people start using cheap material for bogu for $$$, so they tighten the stitch to compensate for the poor quality of material.

A good bogu should be SOFT and FLEXIBLE with high point-pressure resistance.

Stiff bogu is like an old VOLVO...doesn't matter that the car is fine if the passenger in the cabin is shaken-up like a scrambled egg in an accident....that's why new cars have CRUMPLE ZONE to absorb the impact.

Frankly, stitch width don't tell you as much about the quality of the bogu as it use to...the material used is a more telling story.

Some of the cheap hand-stitched bogu out there now is made with a hand-held shooting gun...so it looks hand-stitched, but it is really hand-guided machine stitch with hand-stitch bump pattern that looks fine, but is no good.

I'll take gunome-sashi from now on....

FWIW.DC, No need to be such a punk! I am not here trying to prove you wrong, or trying to wrestle the crown of "Mr. know-it-all" from your hands... This was not a "right or wrong" answer in my mind. Perhaps a better hobby would take some of that pressure from you that seems to be building up from some where.

Of course, I think that handstitched is better than machine stitched. I own a set of handstitched that is incrediable and no where in the same region as machine. Nor is it soft. My point I was trying to make before you got wrapped into "proving" something, is that a good set of bogu will fit you and your budget. Upgrade into the higher stitches or handmade stuff if you want, but a standard machine 2.5bu or so will work as well. Still do not see any good reason to get anything higher than 2.5bu, such as your 3bu.

Your "bubble wrap" and "volvo" speech can be saved for someone you are trying to prove you are a Mr. Know-it-all to. Unless, you are trying to imply that I have no knowledge of bogu. Hmmm..... what ever happended to the idea of a forum where we express opinions without someone saying "WRONG" to posts. lighten up, dude.

Alex

[Musha]

Hmmm..... what ever happended to the idea of a forum where we express opinions without someone saying "WRONG" to posts. lighten up, dude.

Alex

Alex, I have been here along time and because we arn't face to face in these disscussions people go way off topic when they think I'm right and what you say isn't going to change anything.

Some times people think there right and they are but have just got the wrong idea. I usualy get some thing out of these posts even if I still have the same oppinion. Some times your oppinion will change when you are faced with the thing you don't know about but have a slightly different impression of.

Some people here wont say they got the wrong idea but they really will know it later.

Just don't take offence to anything here what ever tone it is in unless it is blatent rudeness from some one who should know better and learn to speak real English... P.S this is a comment on this forum in GENERAL :D.

[DCPan]

DC, No need to be such a punk!

Dear Mr. McGrady,

Before you call other people punks, why don't you review your own tone in this post? Or the posts in the cemented carbide iaito thread for that matter?

You might find other people being less "punky" to you, when you stop making assumptions about what other people do or do not know, or their motives for saying what they say.

FWIW.

[Musha]

:sleeping:..............................

[JSchmidt]

If you went to the same factory and checked there catalog you would usualy see three sections. Childrens 5mm+, Adults medium range 5mm-3mm or less. High quality bogu under 2mm.
First, go and read some of the A-1 and Mine bogu threads. DC-pan and I are far from the only ones saying that less can be more!
Secondly, I've seen a few catalogues and have never seen anything less than 2.5mm machine stitched...and most refer 3-5mm as bogu for 'dan grades', anything above is for 'seniors' and 'teachers'.
Finally, you would get a lot better response to your posts if you removed the hachi-kyu-sensei attitude!

Jakob

[Musha]

Mine is 3mm machine stiched so I guess that makes me a sensei or dan grade :D. I wouldn't fit a childrens or young girls bogu and I'm pretty fin :(.

Think I'd look good in while and red do too :redface:.

BTW Alex is a dan and trains with the Japanese police and has alot of experience with Japanese kendo I assure you he is not speaking from his behind even if I might half be :wink:. Who cares about A-1 and Mine bogu?

[isi]

hachi-kyu-sensei

That's pretty funny. Gives me a laugh to start the day with.

[DCPan]

Mine is 3mm machine stiched so I guess that makes me a sensei or dan grade :D. I wouldn't fit a childrens or young girls bogu and I'm pretty fin :(.

6mm


BTW Alex is a dan and trains with the Japanese police and has alot of experience with Japanese kendo I assure you he is not speaking from his behind even if I might half be :wink:. Who cares about A-1 and Mine bogu?

That wasn't hard to figure, with his reference to the bogu that Japanese Police use to practice arrest techniques.

That said, all the more reason not to screw around when people is asking a question and making insulting references to children and dogs. Can you imagine some poor kyu reading this forum and telling others, "You know, this sandan who trains with the Japanese police tells me that those who wear hand-stitch bogu only for superficial reasons because they want to look good...there's no real reason to wear them!!! Those kenshi that practice kata with iaito...all flash no style!"

There seems to be this general attitude that just because one has trained in Japan, they know something that those aren't in Japan do not.

Frankly, the quality of the instruction that I'm getting is much better than what you would get than some random dojo in Japan. Having the connection to train at the super dojos in Japan is another matter entirely.

FWIW.

[DCPan]

Mine is 3mm machine stiched...

LOL...I confused Mine with Mine....nevermind! :confused2

BTW, it's not like you have a monopoly on factory catalogs.

[JSchmidt]

. Who cares about A-1 and Mine bogu?
Yeah, that's the problem with having any kind of dialog with you...you ignore the facts laid out in front of you, despite people having superior knowledge or experience...one can only hope that you will grow out of it..

Jakob

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Ahhh...........so this thread isnt about menstruational pain?

sorry but thats what came up first in my mind when I read the topic title, and im a guy; *damn I live with my gf together for too long :rolleyes:

[Musha]

Think I've joined the Yahoo fight room lol :D.

[Alex_McGrady]

Dear Mr. McGrady,

Before you call other people punks, why don't you review your own tone in this post? Or the posts in the cemented carbide iaito thread for that matter?

You might find other people being less "punky" to you, when you stop making assumptions about what other people do or do not know, or their motives for saying what they say.

FWIW.NOPE, you are the only one being punky to me. But thanks for your concern. It seems you started to take a punkiness once I supported Musha-san about the 9mm bogu you were talking about.


There seems to be this general attitude that just because one has trained in Japan, they know something that those aren't in Japan do not.This seems to smell. You seem to be saying that those who have trained in Japan are arrogant. I am not saying that you do not know what you are doing. Your comments about the "quality of the instruction that you are getting is much better than some random dojo in Japan" has me stumped.... I am not saying you have no idea about kendo... I am just saying let others have their comments. Everyone seems to take critisim as a comment about their lack of kendo knowledge. I just do not think that anything below 2.5bu bogu is necessary. That is the common view is most parts of Japan as Musha-san pointed out... those retailer websites everyone is making reference to, will say whatever they feel is necessary for people to buy the bogu... it is a commerical and is not a cite for accuracy.

The funny thing is, no one really talks much about kendo itself. We seem to be stuck on what one dojo does, or what we think the best bogu is..... or what we think is right.... if everyone would actually practice kendo a fraction of the time of what they write on this fourm, heck, we would all be experts. Seems most people think it is easier to just write about things....

The cemented carbide iaito thread? Yes, I think it is silly to use a metal sword for kendo kata.... there are others that feel this way too, does not make it wrong or right.... just makes it my opinion. What's wrong with me calling it silly? Think about it what you will.... I will not stop you. Why stop me?


That said, all the more reason not to screw around when people is asking a question and making insulting references to children and dogs.Is that directed at me? Dude, DC lighten up. Did not you see the post by someone of the dog in bogu? It WAS funny. Insulting to whom??? Someone else thought well enough of it to post a photo of a dog in bogu. Perhaps you think it is insulting....and perhaps you do not like humor.... but this is not DC KENDO FORUM. Stop trying to police everyone and let people speak their minds.

Musha-san, thanks for the show of support. But, this little spat, like most spats people have on here....has NOTHING to do with kendo....just injured egos. ありがとう。

Anyone for a spot of kendo?

Alex

[Kaoru]

Alright, the lot of you, stop fighting please! This is silly. I don't care WHO started it. Let's end it now please. Each has their own opinion on which is better. There really is no problem except that egos are getting in the way a little and thus making things turn personal in some ways. The advice has been given, so now, let it rest unless it is not to slam each other. Ok? :)

Kaoru