"Play"? "Player"?

[Cary Y. Mizobe]

Call me a curmudgeon (my apologies to "Confound"), but I have a few "pet peeves" when it comes to Kendo. One of these is when people, especially kenshi, refer to Kendoists as "players" who "play" Kendo.

Kendo is not a "game"! It is a serious martial art with a long and serious history! More than that, Kendo is a discipline; a way of life. I, for one, do not "play" when it comes to Kendo! Do you think the Kendo "legends" such as Mori Torao sensei, Mochida-sensei, Sasano-sensei, Takano-sensei, just to name a few thought so little of their art that they "played" at it? Do you think the current high ranking senseis the world over consider themselves "players'?

I feel that referring to yourself as a "player" who "plays" Kendo shows disrepect to one of the world's oldest martial arts. Kendo evolved from a killing art. You FOUGHT an ENEMY, an OPPONENT! KIDS PLAY! WARRIORS DO NOT! How can you put yourself in the right mind-set to do/learn serious Kendo if in your head you're "playing"?

Some of you may laugh at this and think it's trivial. Many of you consider Kendo a "sport". You have a right to your opinion, so do I. I am a product of "the old school" style of martial arts. One of my first Kendo instructors was Mori Torao sensei's son. He trained me the way his father trained him.
The way I was trained in Karate, Judo, Iaido, and Kendo "back in the day" is much more serious and rigorous than the training of today. I doubt that today's martial "artists" would "put up with" or survive the type of training of "the old days." Black eyes, bruises, strains, slaps to the ears & back of the head were common (and expected). Back then, when you got your "black belt", you had EARNED it! Nothing was given to you.

Discussions on other threads in this forum regarding 'jodan', 'nito', "tricks", 'hiki tsuki', et al and "how to's" on their application would not have been tolerated by "old school" senseis. They would have told you what they told me, "Focus on the "basics"! You can't do advanced 'waza' correctly until you have mastered the basics." A 'shodan' or 'ni-dan' meant nothing. If anything, it meant the "real" beginning of the training of the art you were studying.

As for myself, I DO use jodan, hasso, and nito (among others). But, I did not start learning or using these waza until after I received my yon-dan.

I seriously "burns my butt" when someone like a 3-kyu keikos with me and then "throws" a 'yoko men' at me. To me, a 3-kyu using 'yoko men' against a go-dan is dangerous (for BOTH parties) and personally insulting, especially when the student is seriously lacking in kihon.

Another thing that "bugs" me is not capitalizing "Kendo", "Judo", etc. These are proper names of martial arts and should be recognized as such.

Okay, I'll shut up now! (Until "later".)


With kiai :^{ )


Mizobe-sensei

[nodachi]

I am not disagreeing. I think about Kendo as a martial art. However, 2 nights ago I was talking to some of my sensei after practice. They do various arts such as Kendo, Ittoryu, and others that I may not know. They have been doing these arts all their lives. They were talking that night about the difference between a sport and budo. They considered Kendo a sport because it has lost the spiritual aspect of things where they considered Ittoryu, Iai and things like that as Budo. Like I said, I am not disagreeing with you, but how would you have responded to them?

[hamish]

I certainly agree with the use of play and player as regards kendo. Along with 'fight', what happened to the perfectly good verb 'fence'? And kendoka, kendoist, kendo fencer, kendo practitioner? You don't see any boxing players stepping into the ring, do you?

You hear Japanese with little grasp of English using play and player, but that's no excuse to follow suit.

As for not using capitals, with the magazine, we decided to go with conventions used in other budo research circles, and that is to treat kendo et. al (as words) on the same footing as other pursuits, such as boxing, rugby, soccer and so on. Takeuchi sensei of the Zen Ken Ren also referred to kendo as being treated as a normal noun, in the Kendo Nippon article we translated in issue 3.

Rather than belittling it, on the contrary we see the use of kendo without capitals reflecting it's widespead acceptance as a martial art.

regards

Hamish

[JSchmidt]

I picked up the term 'player' from Japanese ..erhh... kendokas, who most likely learned the 'hard' way as well.
Fight?..I fight in shiais and occasionally in ji-geiko, but the rest of the time it's about learning.
On a similar note, the few (Japanese) jodan players I know, started jodan in high school (So at least before san-dan)...
I do, though, know that I might be starting jodan too early and I have to be careful in not only neglecting my chudan, but also still improving it...but sofar it has actually *helped* my chudan.

Jakob

[hamish]

Nodachi, this debate's been going on for a long time, and I don't want to rehash a lot of old ground, but in a nutshell, I would have responded with 'Bollocks!'

Firstly, kendo isn't a sport, (although it certainly has some sporting aspects) and anyway, how is the ideal of sportsmanship different from the ideals of budo? What defines a sport, and what defines budo? Ask them to explain those ones next time the issue comes up.
Old FJ Norman had some interesting things to say on that score back in the 1900s.

If these sensei are in a teaching position, then it's their fault, surely, as how its taught determines the outcome, whether you're doing kendo or something totally different.

People have been lamenting the so-called 'sportification' of kendo since Takano Sasaburo's time. I think its a valuable stage you should go through to develop your kendo fully. What's wrong with competition?

The goal of older styles such as Itto ryu kenjutsu and so on is to kill your opponent as quickly as possible without getting injured yourself. Very spiritual!

Try those ones next time you hear that conversation!

Hamish

[kendokamax]

The old days are the old days, we can't go back to them, so we evolve and so does kendo... I think kendo is a beautiful martial art because we can practice it without injuring ourselves too much. I am afraid that if we were still doing kendo the hard way, there wouldnt be as much people playing it and I wonder if as many women would do it now. We maybe have lost some of the essence of the old days, the bushi spirit and all that, but there was not only losses.

[Cary Y. Mizobe]

Nodachi,

I would have responded, "Why has Kendo lost its spiritual aspect? Whose fault is/was it?"

"Things" are lost because they are not taught or passed on. In the "old days" (and today also), Sensei never taught you "everything" he knew, for whatever reason. Maybe to always have the "upper hand" so as not to be "embarrassed", or maybe because they didn't feel the "student" was "ready". Whatever the reason, it's a shame. For, when they "retired" from Kendo or especially when they passed away, this knowledge/technique was lost, sometimes forever.

The same can be said of "things" not taught because they are archaic or "not modern". If they are not taught, they are as good as lost. Whose fault is it? Ultimately, it's the teacher's!

In my opinion, Kendo has become a "sport" because things such as the "spiritual" aspect have not been passed on like they should have been.

I teach my students all aspects of Kendo. History, culture, 'reigi', etc. I have told them, "I will teach you EVERYTHING I know!" I will not keep "secrets" from them.

There is a saying, "When you undertake to learn something, you incur a debt to the teacher. That debt is paid when you surpass the teacher." I will be proud of every one of my students when that day comes!

Whose responsibility is it to "pass the torch"? It's OURS! All of us!
If you plan to stick with Kendo, you eventually have to ask yourself, "What kind of sensei will I be?" Everyone of you will inevitably become a sensei one day. What kind of a sensei do YOU want to be? Food for thought!

With kiai :^{ )


Mizobe-sensei

[JSchmidt]

Dunno..fence always brings up images of people in white suits and whippy little things and machine that goes 'Bzzzzzzt!'
I don't use 'player' in terms of belittling kendo, nor do I prefer the sporting aspect for it...it just seems to be the most convenient word for it:).
I actually usually use 'sparring' when I have to describe ji-geiko to non-kendo people..probably the word that covers it best.

Jakob

[2muchryt]

personally i dont care for the word "player"
i also try to make it a habit of not correcting the english of my sempai and sensei everytime they say "player" or some other "incorrect" use of the english language. if the subject comes up, then i will humbly offer my opinion if asked.
kohai are another thing.

quote:
"Do you think the current high ranking senseis the world over consider themselves "players'?"

if their english isn't too good then,,,,, yeah. somtimes.

from what i have heard its usually native Japanese or Koreans speaking english that use the term "player". i think in most cases, from what i have seen in my limited experience, they do not usually mean to belittle or "sportify" kendo. as a matter of fact most of the people that i have heard use that term would definetely fall on the martial art side of the sport vs. martial art debate. come to think of it they kind of use the term for someone they hold in high regard. in other words they might say something like "so and so is a good kendo player". but i personally think its mainly just a language thing. if your a native english speaker (or an American:) ), you probably wouldn't use the term unless you hung out with non native english speaking sempai that used it and you just picked it up. i would like to think that when non native japanese speaking kenshi go to Japan that Japanese folks won't get so mad at us for mangling their language:)

Mizobe Sensei,
i course agree 200% about basics.
i do, however, have a question.
are you suggesting that we limit the topics of this forum to only basics?
or that we have the forums divided by rank as to who can talk about what and when?

[alexpollijr]

This whole terminology issue is to me is rather pointless and endlessly open for debate.

I've seen Rokudan, Godan and even Hachidan sensei employ the word player. Rarely I've seen them using 'fighter'. Perhaps that's the debris from the post-war trauma, perhaps not. I remember once when my main japanese sensei (Kanji Tsushima, Diplomatic officer, 5th dan Kendo/Iaido) saw some shoshinsha sitted down on a chair row at the edge of the room, he stopped practice to lecture us all about the inadequacy of the action, and to quote his english phrase "You have to respect the other players".

As for the Jodan/Nito thing, well I guess that if you request authorization from your teacher and he grants you so, then it goes. Else it doesn't.

[Jerry Wellbrock]

Mizobesan, I am newer to kendo but have practiced karate for over 30 years and am definitely from the old school....I was at first surprised when I heard Kendoka referred to as Players and that they Play Kendo....this seemed very odd to me until I remembered that Nakayama Sensei of Shotokan Karate often used the word Trick instead of Technique....I think(but may be wrong that this was his personal translation for technique)...I do have a question for you or others who may know the answer...When did the term Player come into use and do we know why?....If I had to guess did it come about when Kendo was reorganized as the AJKF after the ban on Kendo and other Martial Arts following WWII? Since it was introduced under the guise of a sport rather than a Martial Art was this the possible reason for the use of the term Player?...If anyone has the answers I would like to hear your reply.....I do agree that I perfer Kendoka or Kenshi over Player. Jerry:confused:

[Neil Gendzwill]

The explanation I got for use of the word "play" is that matches with shinai are games compared to shinken-shobu. I don't think there's an english equivalent to what they mean, thus the rough translation to "play".

I agree with Mr. Mizobe regarding jodan and nito. There are a lot of low-level kendoka here discussing technique that is over their head. However it is up to their sensei to correct them on the dojo floor.

[Cary Y. Mizobe]

2muchryt,

I am certainly NOT suggesting that we limit the topics of this forum or divide it by rank! Everyone is free to discuss whatever they like.

What I am trying to point out is what I have experienced and have seen during my Kendo "career". Every kenshi I have ever met has always asked me the same question, " How can I get better in my Kendo?" My answer is always the same, "Practice and master the basics."

Exhuberant/impatient kenshi often do not want to be "bothered" with doing "the basics" over and over, day after day. When they see an instructor or advanced kenshi using advanced waza such as yoko men, jodan, katsugi waza, etc. They think it's "cool" and want to try it too. Things must be done gradually in a particular order. As a child, did you go straight from crawling to running? No, we all had to go through the proper "steps." (Pun intended) All I'm saying is that Kendo is the same way.

I applaud the existence of forum boards such as this. It gives everyone access to instructors and fellow kenshi we might not ever have the opportunity to meet. It also gives everyone the opportunity to see that there are differences of opinion/teaching style between instructors and students.

All I am saying is don't be in a hurry to try the "cool" stuff. There is a reason that they're called "advanced techniques."

Ultimately, it is up to your particular sensei to decide if you should/should not learn the waza discussed on these boards. Then again, I've seen some senseis with poor basics also. And I mean basic "basics".

When asked "How long does it take to get a black belt?" by a student, Mori Torao-sensei replied, "When you can do 10,000 suburi, you will be a shodan." The student told Mori-sensei, "Ten thousand! I've probably already done more than that!" Mori-sensei simply said, "Ten thousand "perfect" suburi?" and walked away. This story was told to me by my sensei, Mori-sensei's son. It illustrates the simplicity and necessity of "the basics."

Before the creation of Kendo federations and promotion exams, Mori-sensei would grade and issue rank to his students by having each of them do kirikaeshi in front of him. He would give them a rank (or not) according to how well they did kirikaeshi. Since kirikaeshi encompasses all the "basics" of Kendo, he could tell how each kenshi's Kendo was according to their kirikaeshi.

We ALL have room for improvement. Right? If not, why did you pick the call sign "too much right"?

With kiai :^{ )

Mizobe-sensei

[Cary Y. Mizobe]

When I started this thread, it was not my intention to "open a can of worms" (Although I find that I am quite good at it.). It was mainly to express my own opinion and to hear what all of you out there in "cyberspace" thought.

I am in agreement that it is probably a language thing for sensei/students whose primary language is not English. My point is that shouldn't WE (English speakers) make the correction instead of perpetuating the "mistake"?

With kiai :^{ )

Mizobe-sensei

[scbang]

Mizobe-sensei,

You're probably right in saying "I am in agreement that it is probably a language thing for sensei/students whose primary language is not English. My point is that shouldn't WE (English speakers) make the correction instead of perpetuating the "mistake"?

However, I want to point out that when I first come to US, I found it odd that everyone wanted to correct me for mispronouncing their names or words. I don't remember that as much with other Asian countries. So it could be due to the cultural differences. There is a Chinese ancient saying " You read hundred times, the meaning will become obvious " Things are much more intuitive there - So if someone says I play Kendo - whether it's a sport or something more than that, as long as one understands what I meant by "PLAY" - it probably is OK by many non-Eglish speaking ( or even some Eglish speaking ) Asians.

Don't we have someone from Hong Kong? What do you think?

[2muchryt]

Mizobe Sensei,
sincere thanks for your valuable insight and experience regrading basics.
you are of course absolutely correct.

quote
"We ALL have room for improvement. Right? If not, why did you pick the call sign "too much right"?"

because my kendo sucks :)

i was just thinking that the forum is a cool place to somtimes find out things
that you normally wouldn't talk about on the dojo floor. for instance i started the thread about hiki tsuki not because i wanted to start using it, but merely because counfound said she read about it and i just wanted to know if it exsisted. sounded funny; "hiki tsuki" :) if you read the first post on the hiki tsuki thread i added:

"i would ask my sensei, but he has me
working on this other thing called "men"
and i dont really have that one down yet."

if i mentioned hiki tsuki to my any of the sensei's i know
i am sure they would initialy think i was kidding. (just before they kicked my ass)

[Cary Y. Mizobe]

Hey, 2much!

To say that your Kendo "sucks", well, quite frankly........sucks!
You shouldn't be THAT hard on yourself. If that's what your subconscious mind is thinking, you'll never get better Remember, Kendo is "mental" too.

Just to illustrate, a few years ago, when I was still at West Los Angeles Dojo, a student of mine quit for a couple of years. He wasn't the best student, but certainly not the worst. He did have a lot of bad habits that I was continually trying to correct.

When this student returned to the dojo a couple of years later, he was actually better than when he left. I asked him if he had been practicing while he was away. He said he hadn't even looked at a shinai during that time. Strange.

I found out later that although he hadn't practiced or looked at a shinai, he did "think about Kendo". He thought about what he had been taught when he was at the dojo. He thought about what the other senseis, including Nakabara-sensei and myself, had told him. He said he "practiced" in his mind.

I think what eventually happened is that since he wasn't able to physically practice, he was unable to "reinforce" his bad habits. Eventually, all he "remembered" was the "good stuff". When he began to physically practice again, it was like he had been doing it the "right" way all along. The "mind" is amazing!

So, keep a positive attitude! Don't think negatively! It WILL affect your Kendo!

With kiai :^{ )


Mizobe-sensei

[2muchryt]

quote:
"To say that your Kendo "sucks", well, quite frankly........sucks!"

see,,,, told ya :)

sincere thanks for the words. i agree, the mind is amazing.

[kendokamax]

uh ya but who's mind?

[ben]

Welcome M izobe sensei! It's always good to have another kodansha on the boards.

Having said that I am curious that after all your years of training you still worry about a little issue like this. I don't mean about passing on the correct tradition - that just shows you are worthy of the title "sensei" - but that you believe the use of the noun "player" and the verb "to play" in conjunction with kendo can somehow undermine the quality of today's kendo. Today's kendo is different to pre-war kendo for a huge number of reasons (the outcome of the war is a big one). This word-play is not one of them IMHO.

Bu then again I think the most sensible thing I ever heard was Rinzai Zenji's comment - "Personally, I don't dislike anything." So you can see I don't really go for that ol' fire-in-the-belly preachin'.

b

[2muchryt]

quote:
"uh ya but who's mind?"

"THE" mind.

you can find the mind at:
http://www.endoftheyellowbrickroad.com/

if i only had ki.

[munenmuso]

What "player"? Just what do you mean by that? My 7dan Japanese sensei would never ever say that word, I never heard that from him since the first day he came to the dojo. But heard him often saying "prayer",say,"don't 'pray' kendo like that, 'pray' kendo like this".Hah.But he's the greatest!!!:)

[sminki]

Although I would tend to agree that kendo is a martial art more than anything else (despite some sport-like elements of it which no one will be able to dispute. I mean at the end of the day, although it should be practiced as real sword fight, it isn't) I have somewhat of a different view about these wordings. As a side point, I myself seldom use the words "to play" or "player" when I speak about kendo as a personal preference. I personally prefer "do kendo" or "practice kendo" over "play kendo".

But let's think about this. There's obviously some feeling of levity when we say the likes of "play kendo", etc. It probably comes from one of the definitions of the verb "to play" being "to toy or fiddle around with something". However, I do point out that there are definitions of the word "to play" which are more serious as "to engage or occupy oneself with~/to perform in a position in a specified manner/to pretend to engage in the activities of~" (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).

After all, aren't we engaging and occupying ourselves with kendo? Aren't we pretending to engage in the activities of sword fight? I don't believe that any one of us imply any toying or engaging in frivolous recreational activities when we say "NFL players play football" as it's serious life-effecting activity for them. In any case, considering that kendo has to do with sword fight, I think it's a good thing that it is a pretend sword fight which one can "play" and practice rather than having to kill or be killed.

I think what's really important is that we all keep our hearts and minds in the right place and always remember the meaning and purpose kendo and apply them to our lives rather than arguing over semantics. I fullheartedly agree that kendo should be spoken about with a certain degree of reverence. I believe that this is what Mizobe sensei from California is ultimately trying to get at. But I don't mind people saying "play" kendo or kendo "player" not only because it falls within the proper dictionary definition of "to play" but also because most people when they say "play" kendo, their hearts are in the right place. You just can't say stuff like "hey let's all go to the dojo, put on our bogu and fool around."

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by Cary Y. Mizobe
Call me a curmudgeon (my apologies to "Confound"), but I have a few "pet peeves" when it comes to Kendo. One of these is when people, especially kenshi, refer to Kendoists as "players" who "play" Kendo.



How about kendo "student" ??

[mingshi]

Oh dear...

Apart from spending a few hours of your leisure time in the dojo, many of us are different from those who devote their lifetime to study/teach martial arts. Many of us have rejected the attitude of "if the sword is real" and "we are warriors". Now that we don't die like that anymore.

A while ago some 7th/8th Dan Sensei asked me after practice, "How long have you played Kendo?" I believe I do not qualify for "study Kendo" in their point of view. If you've ever consider something as a hobby that you do during your spare time, what else can be a better word than "play" and "player"?

If Gaka = Artist, person whose job is doing Art,
then Kendoka =person whose job is doing Kendo.
Most of us failed to become a Kendoka. Rather we'll still be playing Kendo.

Then again, what's wrong with "play"? NBA basketball players do not play. Even things that get into a professional level, if they have competitions, there is still player 1 and 2. That cannot escape from the word "play".

Lastly, IMHO any healthy discussion on the subject of Kendo and other Budo is essential for learning. If we've never talked about anything after practice (and "stick to our basics), we'll never study the history of our art, we'll never get the full picture of what we study. Maybe that's one of the many reason why there is such thing as "Kendo World Magazine".

P.s. Speaking of Confound... She'll only consider calling anyone her Sensei if they are 7th or 8th Dan... :p

[Inouye02]

Hmmmm, Let me see, I for one am not a kendo player and i can tell you first hand that Mizobe Sensei doesn't play when it comes to practicing kendo, When you practice with Mizobe Sensei he is dead serious...I myself started Kendo in 1971, recieved my 1-dan in 1976 which was earned the hard way , alot of bruises, and hours of hard practice!!, unfortunately i quit in 1977. I recently returned to Kendo in 2002 due to my son's pleading since he is also practicing Kendo, But before I returned I had alot of doubts, I had numerous talks with Mizobe Sensei and he encouraged me to come back to Kendo, 25 years is a long time to be out of Kendo but with help from many Sensei's from various Dojo's I passed my exam for 2-dan..yeehawwww.. So thank you Mizobe Sensei for the many hours of keiko you put me through.

[sminki]

so by that rationale, NFL/NBA players are not serious when they "play"?

i'm certainly in agreement that kendo should be practiced in a serious way and should be spoken of with respect, but why are so many people just caught up in the semantics of one particular word (and one of its many meanings at that)? there are other definitions of the word "to play" as i have discussed above (although i will admit that i myself seldom use the word to accompany kendo).

[Inouye02]

NBA/NFL/NHL/MBL PLAYERS are serious but they play a game, Do you after you win a point in competition go around high fiving people ? NO I don't think you do, they get paid to PLAY, if they made a league for kendo dojo's to travel around like pro sports then I will say i am a kendo player, but as for now i am a student of the art of Kendo...The End

[kendokamax]

oh i wish i could get paid doing kendo!!!

haha at least if it was free!

[sminki]

venice,

Please read my longer bit on dictionary definitions of the word "to play" above. As i seldom use the expression myself and it is people's hearts and mind being in the right place that I really care about, i'm not going to spend much more time defending the use of the word "play" with kendo, but I just don't think there's anything offensive/degrading about using the word when talking about kendo.

I would like to add that in no way does the word "play" imply celebrating or getting paid. There are amateur players who take their activities very seriously who do not celebrate or taunt whenever they win matches.

Lastly, there are kenshi in Korea who belong to teams which are sponsored by major businesses who make a living out of kendo. I don't know if that sort of thing exists in Japan or any other countries, but to a certain extent, you could even argue that there are such instances in Japan since there are kenshi who (despite being policemen, etc.), for all intents and purposes, make livelihoods out of doing kendo and competing in kendo. Does that mean that these people suddenly become "players" while you and I are not?

This is the reason that the use of the word "play" should be taken with its dictionary definition "to engage or occupy oneself with~/to perform in a position in a specified manner/to pretend to engage in the activities of~" (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary). And of course as I also pointed out, what's really important is where people's hearts and minds are in practicing kendo, not necessarily the employment of the word "play."

I've spent too much time on this already. These are my views.

[M.K. Kawai]

Hmmm.... If we were to take the definition of "play" seriously, then we should take the definition of "Kendo" seriously too, right?

Kendo - The Way of the Sword.

So... Are we playing "The way of the sword," or are we doing "The way of the sword?"

Personally, I DO Kendo and I AM a Kenshi.

MKK

BTW, Kenshi - A swordsman; a fencer.

[2muchryt]

venice,
you don't have to blindly defend mizobe sensei. he is much respected and he has already responded to most of the comments on this post, and if he has anything to add i am sure he will do it himself. i dont think he needs you to to speak on his behalf. i think everyone basically agrees with him about the feeling of kendo requiring respect, but if you read one of Mizobe Sensei's posts, he himself acknowedged that it is probably usually just a language thing. please see also the post that explains the japanese term "shinken-shobu", there is simply not really any other word in english that comes closer than "play".
by the way,
quote,
"if they made a league for kendo dojo's to travel around like pro sports "
they do. its called the US National Kendo Team.
i personally would be much more interested in what YOU have to say. no one is attacking your sensei. didn't you read any of the other peoples posts? its like all you see is people coming down on your sensei and not what anybody else is actually saying.
the fact is that alot high ranking (by "high ranking" i am talking way higher than 2 dan and higher than 5 dan) Japanese Sensei use the term "Player". its usaully just a language thing.
and it has nothing to do with you passing your 2Dan Shinsa.(although i do offer you "Omedeto Gozaimasu"!)

I dont know how tall you are but i would like to see you stare down Shaq and tell him that what he does is not as "serious" as what you do. and that what he does is just a game, and that you, unlike him, are a warrior.,,,, that would be entertaining.

[sminki]

M.K. Kawai,

No one is saying that the definition of kendo should not be taken seriously. I wholeheartedly agree that kendo should be approached as it were shinken shobu. However, do you usually practice with a real sword? Do you engage in matches with a real sword? Unless you do, can you literally say that you are doing the way of the sword? Don't we, after all, pretend to be in a sword fight?

This is why I keep on pointing out that arguments over semantics is pointless. Everyone on this forum seems to know that kendo is a budo and that it should be regarded and spoken of as such with respect. I was simply pointing out that the usage of the word "play" does not imply any degradation or indignation to kendo.

So, we play, do, study, follow, practice, learn, take in, engage in, train and live kendo. As long as the kendo player/doer/follower student/practitioner/kenshi/kendoka/kendoist has the right heart, the semantics of it within reasonable range should not matter.

Yes kendo did evolve out of killing with a sword (as one of the people on the bulletin board has pointed out) and is a budo. However, none of us will ever actually use kendo with a shinken against other people. All we should do is practice hard, listen to and respect our senseis and other kenshis, respect kendo and remember that it did evolve out of sword fights and lives taken, but ultimately, we should all remember that the purpose of the sword is to enlighten and to bring life, i.e. "üÀìÑËü" for those of you who can read kanji. Whether someone says "player" or "doer" or "kenshi" does not make any difference as long as proper respect is meant and as long as we keep this in mind.

[sminki]

M.K Kawai,

One last point. One of the definitions of "to play" is "to engage or occupy oneself with~" (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).

So "to play kendo" would mean "to engage or occupy oneself with the way of the sword". I see nothing wrong with that as I also see nothing wrong with "doing kendo". You see?

(My apologies to people who read these posts. I keep on pointing out that argument over semantics is pointless, but end up doing the same myself. I guess I just find it necessary to do so to highlight the "pointlessness" of it. So I'll stop.)

[kendokamax]

Imagine Shaq playing kendo....wow
or Zdeno Chara or that chinese basketball dude (yao ming?)
haha it would be too easy for them to hit men.

[M.K. Kawai]

sminki,

My questions were rhetorical. My response was my two-cents on how I personally stand on the issue.

There is an old Aikido saying, "Live by the sword, die by the sword." So yes, I do practice with a sword and I use a sword in a shiai. But, no one dies from my sword. It isn't sharp enough to kill.

If I follow your logic correctly you speak about semantics and toss a definition out there for everyone to digest. By your logic my second paragraph would be absolute nonsense. It wouldn't make sense, because everyone on this Board knows that a shinai is composed of primarily of four pieces of bamboo and would fail to even remotely come close to the definition of a sword.

It's one thing to state why you use the word "play" and back it up with the Webster Dictionary. It's another matter to beat the definition of it over our heads.

Why we use certain words is sometimes a personal thing or a matter of principle. I use the term "do" because it best describes my actions in Kendo. I didn't need a dictionary to tell me that. But, on that note, I don't lock myself into a defined term where I feel that I have to aggressively defend myself simply because I believe that I have been backed into a corner.

So... Do I really practice Kendo with a sword or not?

MKK

[kendokamax]

Here is my 75 yen.

Kendo is a game. It's like a play. I mean everything we do during keiko or shiai, it isn't really fighting, but only two people agreeing on a concept(concept of how to give/receive ippon)...

Some are saying that we use the shinai like if they were swords, but isnt that the same as some kids playing with water guns and "shooting" their friends? In both case imagination is needed to enjoy the activity. In the case of kids using water gun to "fight" eachothers we would say that they are playing.Then in the case of people doing kendo why would we not consider that activity as playing?

I'd like to add a bit more to my reflexion ..but i need to sleep ... work tomorrow morning(no more playing around!)

[kendokamax]

ah one more thing....was brushing my teeth and thought about something.

In french we use the verb "faire" (to do) when saying that we are doing kendo...and using the word "jouer" (to play) sounds ridiculous for some reason. Tu veux jouer au kendo?? (just doesnt sound right) so after all maybe french people knew it all along...kendo was not about playing ?:P

[Inouye02]

this is so stupid, why dont we all get together at Mizobe Sensei's Dojo and play kendo then ..come on guys , wouldn't that be fun

[2muchryt]

kendo max,
thats no fair. you guys screwed up Latin and called it "French".
we screw up English and we're just "Those Damn Americans". :)

anyway, i still am under the impression that its mainly as we say here;
"a language 'thang, baby!". peace out y'all.

[Inouye02]

hey 2much , ur invited to Mizobe's Dojo also

[sminki]

M.K. Kawai,

Haha. My apologies if I seemed like I was trying to beat anyone over the head with the dictionary definitions of "play". I was merely trying make a small point in defense of people who say "play kendo".

As I have indicated before, I usually use the term "do kendo" myself. Well, sometimes I say "study kendo" as I feel that there are aspects of it which are left uncovered in saying "practice kendo". So I do understand that it is a very personal thing. Despite the fact that none of us actually use a real sword (at least during matches) it is the mindset of shinken shobu and other principles and concepts of kendo such as fudoshin, shiki, sansatsuho and zanshin that is important to me and I do try to approach kendo (and life, for that matter...imagine if you could apply all these concepts fully in your every day life!!!) from that perspective. I think it means that I too practice with a real sword.

Obviously, people continuously argue about this matter. Some say kendo is a sport, others say kendo is a budo and it will continue to go on. I believe that kendo means different things to different people and wanted to provide some "relief" to those people who say "play kendo".

Venice,

Thanks for extending the invitation in behalf of Mizobe sensei. I know that you actually meant to say "Mizobe sensei's dojo" as opposed to "Mizobe's Dojo". I would love to have a chance to learn from Mizobe sensei. He seems to be a fantastic sensei with a lot of tradition and history who not only cares dearly for kendo but also cares deeply for each and every one of his students as well. Westside Kendo Dojo has a very nice website too. You should feel so lucky.

But do I sense a little bit of a dare saying "come to our dojo guys...we'll see if you really 'play' kendo"?

[M.K. Kawai]

sminki,

Glad you got a laugh out it:D I admit that I was raised "Old Shcool," so my mind is wired is a certain way. But, I recognize that Kendo back then is very different from what it is now. The composition of Kenshi is also different. A dojo usually had more kids than adults back then.

It doesn't come as a surprise that as a result there will be clashes and changes over some things in Kendo... for better or for worse. As long as it doesn't degrade into something below respectable is fine with me. Then again, that's life.

But, that doesn't mean I have to roll over and play dead:D

Peace,
MKK

[Steve]

I'll make a few comments regarding a few things that Mizobe-Sensei has said.

First off, I AM a low level kendoka practicing Jodan. When i first started doing this, i was given the "ok" to do so by a Sensei who has taken our club under his wing. BUT, he said that usually you must attain a ni-dan or better yet san-dan before you consider learning kamae other than chudan. As such, he recommended that i practice it in the comfort of our dojo only.

Well, we went to a Team Canada practice camp this thanksgiving past. Some of the greatest Kendoists in Canada were there to both practice with and teach those who attended.

I don't know what made me do so, but i decided i was going to use Jodan at this event (asking permission of course with each individual i came up against), and maybe pick up a few tips. Believe me, i was sweating bullets everytime a Sensei or TC member looked in my direction.

Then, Sensei Murao (TC's head coach) came walking towards me. I thought i was in for it!

To my surprise, he was very excited to see me trying to learn Jodan! He then proceeded to give me some 1 on 1 Jodan instruction. As did TC members Taguchi, and S. Asaoka (who somehow already knew my name and that i had been trying to learn Jodan). As a side note, he gave me some tips, then pummeled me using Jodan himself...one of the best beatings i ever had the pleasure of enduring!

Now, I'll get to the point. After the practice, I was told that i had a decision to make. Practice Jodan 100%, or not at all. At the time i was switching between the two. I told them all my rank, and asked if they were sure it was ok. They all said: yes. Even a 7th Dan from Japan (Kimura Sensei from Nagano) was delighted that i was learning Jodan, encouraged it, and showed me some basic waza.

EVERY SENSEI I have since encountered have encouraged me to practice Jodan diligently, and since then I have.

What is my point in this story? While the teaching methods of the past were extemely effective, most of them are no longer applicable today. You said it yourself, most would not endure or put up with the training routine. Kendo, like everything else, has evolved.

I fully admit that me starting to train in Jodan slowed my progress somewhat. But i can honestly say now that it has also helped my basics immensely. By letting somebody experiment with difficult waza, they will soon learn on their own how important "the basics". This self-realization will invigorate their spirit for learning them, and give them an even stronger devotion towards them. It has for me.

[Inouye02]

sminki,

nah it's not a dare , sorry if it sounded like it. but i do think it would be cool to practice with other kenshi i meet , always looking to learn from someone else...

peace out , Jamie

[sminki]

venice,

haha that's okay. i was just giving you a hard time. i completely agree with what you say about learning from other kenshi. since one tends to get used to the type of training and the kenshi from his/her own dojo, i feel that it's always good to visit other dojos and have visitors from other dojos. i'm in the east, so i have not had a chance to visit any dojos west of chicago. hope to visit westside & practice with you and Mizobe sensei sometime.

till then,

sminki

[Prince_Romeo]

Hey this forum is cool. I have to agree with Mizobe-sensei on refraining from using the word "play" in regards to Kendo. However I have to admit, my first time hearing this was from a visiting Japanese friend who asked me " Do you enjoy play Kendo?" LoLz It kinda caught me off gaurd but I thought it was cool the way she said it. Actualy kinda cute. Another time, as I watched the Memorial Day team tournament at Osaka Sangyo University, I was politely asked "Are you kendo playaah?" It sounded so cute, with her cute vampire teeth showing through her smile. :vampire: Since then, the term "play Kendo" has always brought back fond memories of the Japanese from Japan...

As for us native english speakers though, we should refrain from saying "play" when practicing kendo. It does'nt give the proper respect that Kendo deserves.

As far as the other topic on advanced fencing styles, I'm not even qualified to comment!:cry: I'm still trying to develope more proper and defined fumikomi!:confused2

[Confound]

I don't say 'play' when referring to kendou, it makes me feel like I'm at work, teaching a group of grade seven students. (I play ~ is grade seven English, it's one of the first grammar points, and o how I hate it...) I teach my students that one 'studies' a martial art, instead of playing. At least some of them get it.

One English lesson at a time..
c

[Abe Froman]

My brain is too fried from trying to get men right every time to worry about this mess. It's all secondary to good form.

[Paburo]

i think it's english fault and translation non-sense. it doesn't have to do much with philosophy of kendo. japanese are aware that kendo is not a game. it's budo.

in japanese they use the verbs

benkyousuru - to study
or
keikosuru - to train

when referring to kendo

they never ever use asobu - to play!

when referring to a kendo student, they use the noun

kenshi - fencer

kendoka is just another western invention.

in spanish we are lucky to have enough verbs to make the translation almost literal, thus avoiding this kind of silly misunderstandings.

we do not 'play' kendo here, we 'practice' it, or 'train' it, or 'do' it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Paburo

when referring to a kendo student, they use the noun

kenshi - fencer

kendoka is just another western invention.

i
Depends on who you're talking to. My instructor, born and raised in Japan, says 'kendoka'. It's a 'bokken'/'bokuto' kind of thing, both are correct.

[nodachi]

I am not disagreeing, but there are some Japanese who refer to Kendo as a sport, and not budo. Just playing devil's advocate. I think of it as budo and treat it as such, but not all Japanese think of it as budo. I think it all depends on your personal treatment and philosophy of what kendo is that makes it a budo or a sport.