how can one tell if one's improving?

[bullet08]

i can't never tell if i'm improving in anything.. mainly i always find things that i'm not doing well.. been told i have been improved by my sensei.. but how can one really tell that they are improving? i realized rather quickly rank doesn't mean much in kendo.. i know there are members of my dojo who are not even ranked and much better than me.

pete

[joekc6nlx]

it may be that you only notice a gradual improvement, whereas your sensei looks back with an experienced eye and notes the overall improvement you've made.

I have the same problem, I don't think I'm doing that well, but then I have 3 kodansha who all tell me that my form is vastly improved from when I started. I have no rank, either, but that isn't important to me, right now.

I think that I feel better about my kendo, knowing what my sensei is saying and that I am getting better.

[Alex_McGrady]

i can't never tell if i'm improving in anything.. mainly i always find things that i'm not doing well.. been told i have been improved by my sensei.. but how can one really tell that they are improving? i realized rather quickly rank doesn't mean much in kendo.. i know there are members of my dojo who are not even ranked and much better than me.

petePete-san, I think that I know I am improving when I dont suck as much as I did before. We will always find something wrong with our techniques, let's just face it. My sensei never hands out the "good jobs" or "well dones", I consider it a good day if he has little to say, because if he speaks it is to tell me all the things I did wrong.

I got over trying to find the feeling of accomplishment after each practice. These days, I make a note of the things that I need work on, but I count the few things I did right (maybe only one thing) rather than the hundred things I did wrong. Does it make me feel better.....well not really but with a good ol' helping of humble pie, everyday is a lesson. Take one day at a time and if possible, after practice go home and make notes on what the sensei says to work on. I have done that for years now. I read the list from time to time so I will always remember. GOOD LUCK!!!

Alex

[Kyuuketsuki]

When I started kendo, the sensei told me to do this and don't do that, and now I know I've improved because he doesn't correct me anymore on the things he corrected me before, for example, my sensei used to tell me not to dip when we were doing basic foot work and he does not correct me anymore and I feel that I am not doing it anymore.

Thats how I know I have been improving

[Optomitrist]

I can tell I'm improving by listening to the thoughts im my head when training. A beginner thinks about footwork and propper swing path ect. A more intermediate student like me pay more attention to being quicker and leaving less oppenings. Also when doing jigeiko for the first time you just dont what to get a beating. Now I am more interested in scoring points and overcoming my opponent. All the answers are in your head.

[streetcleaner]

tournaments

[Banza Joe]

Don't mean to sound harsh, but how could you NOT know if you were improving!?!?!? :confused2

Surely, you can look back at, say, your 4th lesson, (about the time you've gotten over the very initial club-footed comedy and actually start to learn something) and compare that with what you know today.
You could always break it down;
1. Is my men cut any better than 4 weeks ago?
2. Is my kote?
3. What about my footwork? does my foot still hurt like it used to?
4. Is my kiai any better?
5. Do i still look like an epileptic donkey during jigeiko?
6. If answer to 5 is yes, then do i manage to actually land any strikes?
7. what about kata? Can i remember any of the kata, or even bokuto kihon ho?

Again, sorry to sound harsh, but if you don't know by now, you'll never know!

[Pauly]

Tournaments? I know a 6th dan who sucks at competition. But he does know kendo (perhaps it's the nerves that tie him up).

This is why the martial arts are so great. It's not just imitate and get better, it's more imitation and understanding.

No doubt you have improved. But you may not know why yet. Once you do, you will have a great feeling of accomplishment. And don't worry. For me, this feeling comes about once every 6 months.

[streetcleaner]

Tournaments? I know a 6th dan who sucks at competition. But he does know kendo (perhaps it's the nerves that tie him up).

if 6th dan always sucks in competition (against lower grades i suppose), maybe he is false 6th dan?

[Optomitrist]

interesting, a 6th dan who doesn't do well in tourneys. But the whole reason for all of that training is to prepare you for shiai. If one can't do that, then they are no better then a beginner.

[Banza Joe]

I know of a 6th dan who apparently isn't so good in shiai. BUT, he has chosen not do shiai, rather to teach kendo and kata. I suppose even at such a high grade you can become 'out of touch' with certain aspects of your kendo if you don't practice it enough.

[Paikea]

interesting, a 6th dan who doesn't do well in tourneys. But the whole reason for all of that training is to prepare you for shiai. If one can't do that, then they are no better then a beginner.Not trying to get trite, but:

The Concept of Kendo
The concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through
the applied study of the katana or Japanese sword.

The Purpose of Practicing Kendo
To mold the mind and body,
To cultivate a vigorous spirit,
And through correct and rigid training,
To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo,
To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,
To associate with others with sincerity,
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.
Thus will one be able
To love his country and society,
To contribute to development of culture,
And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples

...did I miss the "purpose of Kendo is to go forth and kick butt in shiai" part somewhere? Granted, I enjoy shiai (I suck too), I like the adrenaline rush and particularly enjoy watching good matches (Mr. Kurukuru and the SCI clan come to mind) - but it's not THE reason by a long shot. We too have a few Sensei who don't do tournaments and tend to focus on a more old-school approach. Are they out of touch? Hardly, they balance the training regimen and keep us in touch with the way things were intended to be.

[Optomitrist]

I knew some one like paikea would complain about my comment. I guess I should be more specific. I have been im martial arts most of my life. i have gone through the phase of believing martial arts are for kicking butt. many years later now I have entered a stage of self improvment and reaching for my own path of enlightenment. I know your happy little list is true but it goes against the philosophies I have picked up. i believe musashi said that one should learn of all trades and basically be what devinci said was a "renaissance man". If you are going to learn kendo, you should make every effort to grasp every aspect of it. Missing one part will damage others. And since we kendoka train everyday to fight in duels you would think a major part of kendo is FIGHTING. god

[Paikea]

I knew some one like paikea would complain about my comment. I guess I should be more specific. Perhaps, since your comment was of a categorical nature. "Someone like me"? Have we met? My name's Perry (it's in the sig line) what's yours?



I know your happy little list is true but it goes against the philosophies I have picked up.
My "happy little list"? It's not mine, it's the ZNKR's. It's the fundamental mission statement of the art.



If you are going to learn kendo, you should make every effort to grasp every aspect of it. Missing one part will damage others.
I thought that was exactly the point I was making. I'm not complaining, I just do not agree that preparation for Shiai is the whole reason for all of that training.

[hyuna]

I become most aware of changes in my kendo when I practice with different people, like those outside of my club and regular practice circle.

However, I do my best not to worry about it too much. I don't see any point to it any more. I used to worry about it, but I found that thinking about it was just a way for me to justify strange and bad attitudes. Like, "I am getting better so I will go to practice" instead of just going to practice, or "I am getting better so I don't have to work as hard today," which is a very bad attitude, or "I am not getting any better, maybe I should give up," which is also a very bad attitude.

So now I just go and only concern myself with doing my best each time.

I find, from practicing with different people, I am still improving, but I am much less annoyed with learning plateaus this way.

[Paikea]

So now I just go and only concern myself with doing my best each time.
I find, from practicing with different people, I am still improving, but I am much less annoyed with learning plateaus this way.The best practices for me are the ones where Sensei calls "yame" and my reaction is "already?"

[Optomitrist]

I have heard of plateaus, I had a little one myself in Taekwondo. It was because I thought i had learned just about everything I could from my master and needed better instruction if I were to improve. That was when I quit.


In kendo, when do people have that plateau? when they have learned all the basics and the sensai has stopped correcting you? And for the people who have had them, how did you snap out of it?

[hyuna]

In kendo, when do people have that plateau? when they have learned all the basics and the sensai has stopped correcting you? And for the people who have had them, how did you snap out of it?
I think plateaus are just what happens when you do something for a long time. I don't think people who have been earnestly and humbly practicing a thing for a short time, say two years, are apt to run into a plateau. For that short a time, there is so much that is new. Maybe even four years. Of course, if someone starts with an attitude that they already know everything, they will hit a plateau earlier, since they are not open to instruction. But even for them, the first year or so is just developing physical habits. In my own experience, it happens when I have become accustomed to a way of practicing, thinking, acting, whatever.

I think that as soon as something becomes "routine" one stops learning. It does not matter how good or bad one is at it, or if one has learned everything there is or hardly anything at all. If one thinks of practice as "just doing this same old thing that I already know how to do," then one naturally stops looking for ways to improve (if one thinks they know how, of course they already know how, so what is there to improve). So, naturally, progress stops. The tricky part is that I find that this routine attitude sneaks up on me and sometimes it takes quite a long time to realize that it is there.

To break out of it, I first have to recognize that feeling in myself that I have become "too comfortable" with my practice. Then, I have to find something to focus on in order to reorient what I am doing/thinking/feeling. That sometimes means taking a couple steps backwards at first.

This is my experience not just in kendo, but in other parts of my life as well.

[Anjin-san]

Its difficult for me to tell when I'm improving in kendo. Generally any way of measuring your improvement that allows you to take pride in it is frowned upon (tournaments, gradings, etc). The fact of the matter is that the majority of people who enter tournaments, obviously, lose. So people have to be able to rationalise to themselves that their training wasn't in vain by de-valuing tournaments. 'Kendo isn't about tournaments, tournaments don't mean anything'. Fine, agreed, there's a lot that can go awry in shiai, this point isn't valid, he almost went out of bounds, he was really mean. A shiai however still serves its purpose to say that 'if this and that person had a kendo jigeiko, who would get two ippons first?'

I know its not as simple as that, I just don't like people saying that shiai isn't important all the time, and then go ahead and enter/judge them.

Kendo is generally said to be about continually being in a state of improvement. To me this means constantly pushing things outside of my comfort zone. I know what I'm doing right now whenever I step into the dojo is incorrect relative to someone, be it johnny shodan or sensei 8th dan. So I say something has to be done different today, unless, through repetition, I'm trying to internalise a change I made earlier.

I heard this somewhere 'You have to improve something when you come to the dojo, otherwise you might as well not bother turning up'. Harsh but how do you expect to improve if your kendo stays the same? If you did something different today, and its better than what you were doing before, you have improved.

On deciding WHAT to different, often times when I do jigeiko with 6th/7th dans I just let my natural 'no-thought' kendo out, wait for them to tell me whats wrong with it, and then work on whatever element they picked up on. Otherwise I know I'm not kicking my right foot out enough, I'm not extending my left arm enough, I'm leaning back in kirikaeshi and I haven't quite figured the footwork out for doh, in nuki and kaeshi flavours especially. So I have plenty to work on for now.

[bullet08]

zen approach to the whole thing is very much what i do.. just do it. then.. this quesiton pops up occationally. 'have i improved'. and there really isn't an answer to that question. there is always this doubt in my mind that i'm doing something wrong. i know my suburi isn't all that bad according to my sensei, my hands/feet coordination is also not that bad according to my sensei. i know my kiai isn't bad. at less than 1 yr into kendo since last time i picked it back up, i should be glad things i'm doing isn't all that bad.. but have i improved.. and if so how much? and how do i make myself see that i'm improving? does it really matter in the end?

i do believe shiai is very important part of kendo. making time for shiai is another story.

believe it or not, when i'm at dojo.. it's all kendo.. when i leave dojo.. i don't remember much of what i did.. something's just not right with my head.

pete

[Hyaku]

i can't never tell if i'm improving in anything.. mainly i always find things that i'm not doing well.. been told i have been improved by my sensei.. but how can one really tell that they are improving? i realized rather quickly rank doesn't mean much in kendo.. i know there are members of my dojo who are not even ranked and much better than me.
pete

Well that's the way the learning process goes. It starts with big steps, then the steps less frequent and smaller. I do feel a bit bogged down with practicing with the same people all the time. There are a lot of them but I still know what most of them are going to do before they do. As mentioned its good to practice with somebody different

Go get you medicine from Sensei then Enjoy yourself. We do Kendo because we enjoy it not cos we are good at it. That could be your next step rather than worry too much about improvement.

[tantadi]

Go get you medicine from Sensei then Enjoy yourself. We do Kendo because we enjoy it not cos we are good at it. That could be your next step rather than worry too much about improvement. For several months me and my sensei have been doing the same..and I'm always too slow according to him, and he will not learn me anything more unless I get faster. Don't know if I ever will be fast enough. I do not enjoy this aspect and I do worry about it not improving.

[Optomitrist]

tendati,

he says you are too slow, does he tell you how to speed up? i have had instruction like this before where the sensei says "do this" but it takes another person to say "you have to change this to do that" I feel your frustration.

[tantadi]

Well, I had a little talk with him about it the other night..where the outcome was confusion and frustration. I agree with you that it sometimes takes another person to point out how to make things work.

[Hyaku]

Well, I had a little talk with him about it the other night..where the outcome was confusion and frustration. I agree with you that it sometimes takes another person to point out how to make things work.

But that's a bit of a Western way to do it. If you feel the sting of a shinai across your backside as you go through it speeds you up quite a bit. Maybe more out of embrassment then pain!

I think my best medicine was kakari geiko. My whole practice and being twice a day was to get just one cut that I took and was not given like a carrot. I would give my all until I felt like dying to get just one victory and recieve the shout of "Kakari Geiko!!!!!!" because I could not. Then the hard work would really begin.

When I actually took my first cut I told my friend. He had not seen it and refused to believe me. Finally he did as they got more frequent. For my reward I would get just Men Men until I could not lift my arms instead of the Kakari Geiko. The main thing was not to die in front of Sensei. Go and find a corner somewhere and collapse into a pile of jelly, but not in front of sensei!

[tantadi]

I only do uchikomi keiko. For me it feels like the standard "little step in"-seme to pressure out an opening is the slowest way possible..because there is a stop or a halt in the motion forward,and something happens with the balance in the footwork (esp. if you don't get an opening) And I can't get two steps as speedy as one..like shifting the gear when you are driving. 1st gear ...pause...2. gear (zzz...motodachi has fallen asleep)

[Gerald Audette]

Interesting discussion. Having just come back from a seminar (Thanks Neil G), I'm struck with the thought that i have a very long way to go. While I did play well, there was things I could work on. Such as playing my own kendo and not falling into the trap of playing my oponents. Keep moving through...I have a tendency to stop. Use more suriage-waza and nuki-waza. I noticed that playing with my sensei from my former club that he did not beat me senseless, but rather worked with me on getting that one good men strike. For a really quick keiko, he found several points for me to think about and work on.

Do we plateau? Or is it that we get into ruts in our practice? We get used to doing things a certain way and need some outside input to get us back on track? Always something to learn...:)

[Neil Gendzwill]

How can you tell you've improved? Go play someone with 2 years less experience than you, see how you feel. Some of the people with only a year or so experience will say to me "I don't feel like I'm getting better". I tell them "go play someone who's just started in bogu - that's how bad you were a year ago".

In your case Gerald you're going to get stuck in a rut because you're forced into a primarily teaching role. I'm betting you don't get a chance to spar Steph too much, but even if you do you need more variety in people who can challenge you, which you're not getting in your club. If you get the chance to visit Calgary club, take it. Hit as many seminars as you can. (Kendo travel will come to a screeching halt for you when the kid shows up, but the advice will still be good in a year or so).

In your own club, try not to fall into the rut we all do of just plonking a kote or a men to show the student that their attack wasn't good enough. If you take a point, take it as if the judges were all around you.

[Gerald Audette]

Thanks Neil. I'll definitely try to make it out to other clubs more and hit all the seminars I can. I suspect that come June, my traveling days will be numbered for a while :). And going through as if the judges are watching - something that I really need to work on.

As for variety, I just heard from Mika. Seems she's making the move back and wants to play! So, I should be able to get a little more variety than just Steph!

[Old Warrior]

How can you tell you've improved?
In our club we have about a dozen people at dan plus level. I have faced every one, 100 times. We all know each other so well, it is challenge to find something surprising to execute. And, everyone is well schooled in dealing with my nito and they they all know (because they have been taught by sabumnim) the importance of distance, protecting kote and how to expose my men.

My question is what mindset do you use to keep the bouts fresh with the same ole opponents?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'd say don't think so much about the opponent and how to "win" or what they are going to do to counter you. Pick something about your kendo to work on and try to carry that theme through each keiko. For example, I sometimes tell people to just hold centre - try to hit mune-zuki on each opponent and ignore getting hit. Or whatever your sensei has told you needs fixing.

[Gerald Audette]

I'd say don't think so much about the opponent and how to "win" or what they are going to do to counter you. Pick something about your kendo to work on and try to carry that theme through each keiko. For example, I sometimes tell people to just hold centre - try to hit mune-zuki on each opponent and ignore getting hit. Or whatever your sensei has told you needs fixing.

Here here! Now all I have to do is keep that in my mind when playing!

[Dave Fowler]

I'd say don't think so much about the opponent and how to "win" or what they are going to do to counter you. Pick something about your kendo to work on and try to carry that theme through each keiko. For example, I sometimes tell people to just hold centre - try to hit mune-zuki on each opponent and ignore getting hit. Or whatever your sensei has told you needs fixing.
Yes I know what your talking about, I did that this year in the tournament. I set my goal and obtained it, didn't get very far after that but did what I set out to do. I guess next year i'll just have to set my goal to win and see if I can do that instead :-)

[Kikuchiyo]

I guess I understand why everyone wants to be awesome at the sport they do, but I wonder why it's so important. Seeing as there's no goal, or no point to reach, why does it matter how good someone is? It's like an infinite scale, and we all know thanks to philosophy class that anything infinite is just hopeless. It's not like one day your gonna wake up and say, "Aha! I have reached the pinnacle of greatness." It'll never end. In my opinion, if that's the case, from the BIG perspective, there's no difference between a beginner and an 8th dan. That probably sounds like a really ignorant statement, but it makes sense to me. The beginner has just as far to go as the 8th dan, and that's a journey into forever.

So the only way to stick with any activity is to love sucking at it. That way, you'll never care about getting good.

[bullet08]

I guess I understand why everyone wants to be awesome at the sport they do, but I wonder why it's so important. Seeing as there's no goal, or no point to reach, why does it matter how good someone is? It's like an infinite scale, and we all know thanks to philosophy class that anything infinite is just hopeless. It's not like one day your gonna wake up and say, "Aha! I have reached the pinnacle of greatness." It'll never end. In my opinion, if that's the case, from the BIG perspective, there's no difference between a beginner and an 8th dan. That probably sounds like a really ignorant statement, but it makes sense to me. The beginner has just as far to go as the 8th dan, and that's a journey into forever.

So the only way to stick with any activity is to love sucking at it. That way, you'll never care about getting good.
in a big picture.. true.. then why bother living? it's hopless according to that theory.

goal, aim.. dream.. or whatever people call it, keeps life interesting.. keep it going until we kick the bucket. for now, kendo is it for me. and when doing anything, there has to be some goal to achieve, even if it's just going to each practice.. and if i could keep on going to each practice, i need next goal.. now it's getting 1-kyu by july.. then possibly shodan by end of the year.. then to other things.. maybe winning next shiai.. nothing big.. something to keep interest going.. keeping the conversation going.. yes, it might seem like a waste of energy, but heck.. so is living in a big picture.

pete

[Kikuchiyo]

I guess i'm just a big ole pessimist.

[tantadi]

I agree with you Kikuchiyo. My goal is to do whatever technique as well as I can, preferrably with improvement. Grades and competitions are at best extra bonuses (at worst hinderances) and not something that I need to keep training.

[JSchmidt]

Shinsa and Shiai are important in the sense that they put your kendo to the test in public. It takes you out of your comfort zone (dojo/familiar training partners) and puts you in a situation where you have to perform... here and now,not next week, not in 5 minutes, but right now.
In that sense, it exposes a more true indication of your level of kendo than standard dojo practice does.
Further, as you progress through the grades, your level of responsibility and the way people deal with you also changes. Granted, this also happens through seniority, but I certainly noticed that the teachers now expects 'more' out of me, after I passed 3rd dan. Not so much in terms of my actual kendo, but in behaviour, responsibilities and general care of the dojo(s).
Finally, to return to the original subject, I don't think one should chase 'improvement' too hard. While I do usually keep a few things in mind for each practice, I don't think of them constantly and my main aim is to just 'practice'. The last few months prior to my grading, I was extremly conscious of my weak points and worked very hard to improve them each practice..and kendo became, mentally, very hard work and I did, to some extend ,stop enjoying it.
While the level of improvement was nice, it wasn't worth the cost of enjoyment. The important thing is to enjoy kendo. Sure, it will suck from time to time and there will be ups and downs, but overall, it should be a positive journey.

Jakob

[Munnin]

I guess i'm just a big ole pessimist.
No I think you are of the right age to be asking and thinking about these kinds of questions.