Sticker-symbol on some Do's?

[Reubino]

I've noticed some Kendoka have a small sticker-symbol placed on the top left-hand side of their Do. All I know is they come in various shapes and colours. What do they represent?

[Watcha]

In some dojos yudanshas wear those stickers, but I don't know about the different shapes etc maybe it's dojo specific

[Banza Joe]

Yeah, most are the 'mon' or badge of their dojo. I saw loads of different ones at a recent seminar, cos obviously there were loads of dojos represented.

[crabbi]

Yep... as BanzaJoe-San says... this is the 'Mon' (Crest) of their dojo typically...but could be a family Mon if the Kendoka has one...

cheers

crabbi

[isi]

I've noticed some Kendoka have a small sticker-symbol placed on the top left-hand side of their Do. All I know is they come in various shapes and colours. What do they represent?

There are two or three long threads on this topic. Unfortunately, since the search engine won't look for a word as short as "mon" you need to try "kamon" and maybe limit the search to the bogu forum.

You'll find threads like:

http://kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1910&page=9&pp=15&highlight=kamon

[KevinF]

A kamon is a family crest - used much as a coat-of -arms was used in centuries past in Europe. They are often based on geometric shapes (diamons, circles, etc.) or items from nature (birds, trees, leaves etc.). Formal kimono for both men and women may feature the kamon in certain locations (back, both sides of chest, or sleeves).

Some Japanese kendokas put their kamon on their do - it's just another way to personalize your equipment. If a westerner has a do with a kamon on - the do was either acquired used from a Japanese person who had their crest put on it, or if they bought it new, they just thought it looked cool and asked the bogu manufacturer to attach a kamon they liked there.

Do a google search for "kamon" (maybe under images as well) to see a few charts of common Japanese family crests.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Another possibility is that they have permission from their instructor to wear the instructor's kamon.

[KevinF]

Niel,

Yes, I know, but I haven't personally come to any decisions about how I feel about that particular practice. Even if some ueberkendomeister would expressly allow me to wear his kamon, I don't think I would. I would personally much rather carve out a name for myself in the kendo world recognizing that I will never wear a kamon on my do (as I am not Japanese) than bear the crest of some family to whom I owe no allegiance.

This relates to the discussion about the zekken. As foreigners, we don't use kanji (unless we are perhaps Chinese or Korean) in our own names. I think it's kind of the same.

The only possibilies I could really see in wearing a kamon as a foreigner is really the circumstance of being given a do from someone (at which time it might be disrespectful to remove the kamon in addition to leaving a noticable blemish on an otherwise nice do, but I would still ask if I should remove it), or the unusual circumstance of being adopted into a Japanese family as a son to continue a family name that has no male heirs. In such a circumstnace, it would be appropiate to use the family kamon, as the man would have changed his family name to a Japanee one (never heard of this happening outside of Japan or to a foreigner in specific, but it is a possibility).

[dnakase]

Way back in the day, one of the wacked out Auzzies who attended the Summer Kendo Semminar with me used the "No Fear" logo as his kamon.

Taken to its extreem I could see kenshi selling ad space on thier do ala Moto GP bikes. ;-)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Way back in the day, one of the wacked out Auzzies who attended the Summer Kendo Semminar with me used the "No Fear" logo as his kamon.Hey, I met that guy! Wasn't he doing nito? Can't recall, it was over 10 years ago.

I would personally much rather carve out a name for myself in the kendo world recognizing that I will never wear a kamon on my do (as I am not Japanese) than bear the crest of some family to whom I owe no allegiance.As this usually is the crest of your sensei, I'd suggest that this is a person to whom you owe your allegiance and you should be proud to wear his kamon.

[joekc6nlx]

For those who have read Darrell Max Craig's book, "The Heart of Kendo", he mentions that his sensei had "adopted" both Darrell and his son into the Chiba clan. By being adopted, they were now required to wear the kamon openly, since by being adopted into the clan, they were also responsible for bringing no shame or dishonor upon the clan.

If one were to have been adopted into a clan, I see no reason why they couldn't (or shouldn't) wear the kamon on their bogu. From my own understanding, though, it's traditionally worn on the gi, not the do.

[KevinF]

Neil,

First of all, sorry for mispelling your name. I think I've done that a few times...

"As this usually is the crest of your sensei, I'd suggest that this is a person to whom you owe your allegiance and you should be proud to wear his kamon."

I'm sorry, but I just don't think we live in an age where people are adopted into "clans" anymore. Were we living during another time, I might feel differently about it. I can understand a gift of a do, or using a spouse's crest - but I don't think I would willingly adopt or use another family's kamon. If I were given a do from a teacher with a kamon on it, I might not remove it, but I would not have one placed on a new do after it became unusable with time. Moreover, I have had too many teachers who have had lasting impacts on me to choose one above all others or to accept such an honor were it offered.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've had the same sensei for nearly 22 years. I don't need to be adopted to feel loyalty.

As far as being adopted into Japanese families - still happens, KW's Hyaku is an example.

[bullet08]

whatever floats one's boat i guess.. when i was playing pipes, i wore macleod tartan for over 20 yrs. our band belonged to their clan and we were member of that band, so that tartan was my colour for the duration. i still like that tartan.. not the macleod of lewis.. but of harris.. i was one of their piper, and i was allowed to wear the colour..

and yes, i was loyal to the clan to a point.. i don't think loyalty goes out of fashion.

pete

[Mikeyprime]

As I do not plan on putting my elaborate european family crest on my do, if my sensei offered to let me where his Kamon, I would be greatly honored. Moreso because my zekken has my last name. It does not show any disrepsect to my lineage.

Sometimes, I even contemplate asking if it would be OK that when he is no longer with us, if I may wear his Kamon to carry on his spirit. But how morbid is it to ask that question?

[Katonk]

Personally, being Japanese, my family's kamon is part of my identity. I take pride in my family identity as I'm sure many Japanese are.

I don't think I'm alone when I say this, but I would find it strange and awkward if I were to see a non-Japanese person wearing a Japanese kamon. Even if that person was "adopted" into a Japanese clan, I would find that to be presumptuous.

I don't think this particular question would have come up if the issue was of an Asian person adopting a European family crest.

[KevinF]

"I've had the same sensei for nearly 22 years. I don't need to be adopted to feel loyalty."

- You are lucky. Your loyality is commendable. My comments previously are compatable with these statements.

"As far as being adopted into Japanese families - still happens, KW's Hyaku is an example."

I couldn't figure out who Hyaku is - not on the KW team page, so I can't comment... except to say:

There is a tradition of "being adopted into families" which applies to Kabuki and entertainment professions in Japan. Such actors and dancers would use their adopted names, equivalent of "stage" names, for the purposes of advertising the school, family and performances. There was no legal change of names with regard to honseki.

There is another tradition which allows a fmaily which only has female heirs to adopt a husband into the family. The husband would change his name and would accept the honor in a formal cermony. The husband would be registered in the families honseki.

I would accept the use of kamon in both above situations - however, these don't apply to kendo. If the first circumstance, then the person would have to have their family name match the kamon on the zekken - otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

Again, both of these traditions are acceptable and honorable propositions but do not apply to kendo . The samurai are gone and westerners using a kamon outside the above mentioned circumstances is - IMHO - at the very least, strange. There is no recognized standard for someone is "adopted" into a clan or family with regard to kendo.

[KevinF]

Thanks Kato for supporting my thoughts on the issue. It's good to have a Japanese perspective.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I couldn't figure out who Hyaku is Colin Watkin, who took the Japanese name Hyakutake. He's one of the senior members of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu (www.hyho.com), and a kendo player as well (7 dan iirc).
I don't think I'm alone when I say this, but I would find it strange and awkward if I were to see a non-Japanese person wearing a Japanese kamon. Even if that person was "adopted" into a Japanese clan, I would find that to be presumptuous.
Well I've argued against non-Japanese people taking a kamon for themselves just because they liked the design of it. But I don't see anything wrong with it being used in the case of a special relationship. Would you have the same objection if a person of Japanese descent were adopted and took the kamon of his new family? If not, I think you should explain yourself.

[Gerald Audette]

Here's a thought...What about using a dojo crest as a "kamon" of sorts? I know several clubs (mine included) that have their own crest that would look okay as a kamon on a do. Now, we do have the dojo's logo on our zekken, but would this be a more suitable for a non-Japanese person?

[KevinF]

"Well I've argued against non-Japanese people taking a kamon for themselves just because they liked the design of it. But I don't see anything wrong with it being used in the case of a special relationship. Would you have the same objection if a person of Japanese descent were adopted and took the kamon of his new family? If not, I think you should explain yourself."

- We obviously agree about westerners taking kamon to use just because they like it. It's inappropiate in any culture.

- You then raise an example which has legal ramifications: the situation of an adopted child in a Japanese family. An adopted child (in the legal sense) is entered into a family honseki and has legal rights such as inheritance, etc. and therefore it is obvious that they should have a legal right to use the kamon. However, someone "adopted" by a kendo instructor does not have any legal rights, and is therefore meaningless in the eyes of the law. Police won't notify the kendo student as next of kin should the instructor be ill or die, and they probably won't be asked to be present during the reading of the will.

I raise the distinction because being adopted into a school or family with regard to kendo might have had a meaning in a legal sense in Japan a few hundred years ago - but it doesn't now. This is why I said the samurai are gone and their time is over (because legal rights for such things no longer exist in codified law in Japan). There isn't a standarized system for this in kendo, so the meaning of a westerner using a Japanese kamon becomes questionable at best. Again, in my personal opinion, the only situations where I feel it appropiate for a westerner to bear a kamon on your do are those where there are clear legal rights and responsibilities of the "adopted" son/daughter to the "father/mother/kendo instructor" or where the do is simply a gift from the instructor and the removal of the kamon could be seen as disrespectful to the instructor giving the do.

[armourer]

I think you are taking it far too seriously, it's just a badge, the same as belonging to a football club. Most of the players in our Dojo have the Dojo mon on their Do, and we are very proud to show where we belong. I think it is each to his own, to many people spend their life worrying what other's think!.

[ImagoX]

Yeah, I'm sort of in agreement with this one as well... Unless the usage of the crest was intentinally disrespectful (for example, putting a red slashed "no" symbol over the crest in an attempt to frustrate a fellow kendoka) then I'm windering why it would be a big deal. Since most crest designs are geometric designs, if I as a graphic artist were to dsesign one of my own, for example (somehting I was considering doing), then I will almost CERTAINLY come up with one that resembles an actual crest, and from what some people here are saying that would be a no-no.

As for wearing a dojo or sensei crest, well, all I can say is that I'd be honored if my sensei extended this to me, and if he ever did (or does) I'll wear the affiliation with pride. Our dojo is too small to have its own crest (although as I said, I'm considering designing one) but I don't see how wearing something that your sensei shares with you because they are proud of you could be "dishonorable".

So be sure to pummel me if we ever meet at a tourney! ;)

Oh, one other thing... If our dojo ever does adopt a crest, does anyone know of a good company that can produce them for us? The ones I've seen (and liked) are very subtle, almost gold-looking designs, in a matte finish. Not gaudy or flashy at all, but also clearly visible. Thanks!

[ImagoX]

PS- Here is a GREAT site with tons upon tons of kanon designs...

http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/index.htm

It's in japanses, but it's fairly self-explainatory as far a getting to the images goes.

[KevinF]

"As for wearing a dojo or sensei crest, well, all I can say is that I'd be honored if my sensei extended this to me, and if he ever did (or does) I'll wear the affiliation with pride. Our dojo is too small to have its own crest (although as I said, I'm considering designing one) but I don't see how wearing something that your sensei shares with you because they are proud of you could be "dishonorable"."

- I am totally fine with a dojo crest or design. In fact, I think it could be cool if small and tasteful (although the zekken sounds to me like a better place for it). The biggest problem here is getting a company to produce a seal or sticker which would be of the same quality as kamon ones produced for do use by Japanese companies.

Also, there is nothing "dishonorable" about wearing the kamon of a sensei, should that right/honor be extended to you. In fact, I recognized in previous postings that I can understand the sentiment, and respect the loyality being demonstrated by the act itself. In the end, however, I just think it is a demonstration of something not-standarized by convention or tradition and as previously stated, so it's at best strange (and at worst, very tacky).

Additionally, as the kamon is used in several facets of Japanese life (not just on the do in kendo), the meaning could be confusing and strange to some Japanese people who would see it, and provoke a lengthy explaination (or just the assumption the do was bought second-hand, stolen or given to them by someone who didn't need it anymore).

Why go through all that trouble for a sticker? Why risk the confusion? You've got plenty of advertising space on your tenogui, the back of your hakama, your zekken, your shinai, your shinaibukuro, etc. - I really don't see the need to further clutter things up on the do as a westerner with a Japanese family seal if your name is Smith or whatever...

[mushinman]

Okay, so I have a Western last name, but I'm half Japanese. The Japanese side of the family has two kamon--one from my grandfather's side and one from my grandmother's side. I would like to wear one of the kamon on my do to honor the family. What should I do?

[KevinF]

You would be fine I think to wear either kamon from your family.

By the way, this is only my opinion, but I am trying to base my opinions in a system that makes sense and is logical. I argued that the kamon has real meaning, and to adopt use of the kamon could in some of the circumstances outlined above, stretch the meaning, create confusion or fall into a broad category of strange to tacky.

In your cicumstance, you have every right to use the kamon from either family. This falls in nicely into my arguments above about legal use of kamon, the ideas behind adoption, honseki, etc. To fully extend the idea of the honseki as legal basis for use of kamon, the kamon from your grandfather would be most appropiate though, as your grandmother was removed from her family honseki (birth register) when she got married and put onto your grandfather's.

[Katonk]

Well I've argued against non-Japanese people taking a kamon for themselves just because they liked the design of it. But I don't see anything wrong with it being used in the case of a special relationship. Would you have the same objection if a person of Japanese descent were adopted and took the kamon of his new family? If not, I think you should explain yourself.I'd agree with KevinF that in a case of a Japanese person being adopted into another Japanese family, there's good reason for using the kamon of the new family. I also agree with KevinF that if you're not Japanese, you might be in for a lengthy explanation if you're displaying a kamon on your do.

It may seem trivial for some people, but a kamon is more than just a design, it is part of one's Japanese heritage and family identity. It may not be as significant as one's last name, but I'd say it's pretty close. That's the point I'm trying to get across here. I'm fine with people using the dojo's kamon, or using their own family kamon; that's part of your identity. But please don't go out of your way to make one up or borrow someone's kamon simply for the sake of having a sticker on your do, that cheapens the significance of the Japanese family kamon.

IMHO

[Mikeyprime]

Why go through all that trouble for a sticker? Why risk the confusion? You've got plenty of advertising space on your tenogui, the back of your hakama, your zekken, your shinai, your shinaibukuro, etc. - I really don't see the need to further clutter things up on the do as a westerner with a Japanese family seal if your name is Smith or whatever...
I see your point, but if my sensei asked me to wear it, i would go through any explanation or situation that I had to. Now the reality is that he probably wont ask anyone to wear it for the reasons you and katonk described regarding identity and family units.

But I am with Neil, I have had the same sensei and I do not see it as anything but a tribute to a great person that had a significant influence and impact on my life. Those would be my reasons for wearing his kamon.

[armourer]

ImagoX, wicked Kamon site, thanks very much.

[ImagoX]

Glad to be of help... :D

[kanyil]

We have a sensei that wears a kamon of sorts in our dojo, and so far no other senseis (include the head sensei) have complained.

He is a senior doctor from the veteran's hospital, and a sensei of the veteran's hospital dojo, so he wears a logo that has a staff and two intertwined snakes. I'm not sure whether the staff in the middle is actually a shinai or not, but you get my drift. It's definitely not a traditional kamon, but why not?

[DCPan]

He is a senior doctor from the veteran's hospital, and a sensei of the veteran's hospital dojo, so he wears a logo that has a staff and two intertwined snakes. I'm not sure whether the staff in the middle is actually a shinai or not, but you get my drift. It's definitely not a traditional kamon, but why not?

You mean he is using the symbol for medicine as his kamon?

http://images.google.com/images?q=medicine+symbol&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=ii&oi=imagest

BTW...my dad told me the Japanese surname that was assigned during the Japanese occupation...to bad a kamon wasn't assigned with it....

Ah well.... :rolleyes:

[kanyil]

You mean he is using the symbol for medicine as his kamon?

http://images.google.com/images?q=medicine+symbol&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=ii&oi=imagest


Close, but I don't believe he copied the medicine symbol exactly. If I run into him tonight I will have a closer look, and also to check whether the staff in the middle is a shinai or the winged staff as originally found on the medicine symbol. :D