A better person?

[David J]

Quoting from another thread...

"Kendo doesn't teach you how to fight, or to be rough and aggressive. It teaches you how to be a better person."

To what extent do people agree with this, and if so...how?

[nodachi]

One can learn how to be humble, respectful, challenge oneself, constantly strive to improve oneself, carry oneself with dignity, and some other things that sound really flowery, but nice.

However, it is up to that person whether or not they are really going to become a better person from Kendo with these things. If they don't care about them, they won't be a better person in these ways.

You can't become a better person, unless you want and are willing to try to be that better person. Kendo doesn't magically make it so, but it can help if the person is willing to use Kendo in that way.

[kendokamax]

yes yes but why?

I think it is in the nature of kendo where you have to fight and prove yourself to everybody (including yourself!!). Give lecons and receive lecons. I mean when you can get beat up by almost everybody you have to become humble....and there is always someone who is better than you.

But I really think that applies to people who are willing to take challenges. I see too much people staying in their own dojo and being able to beat everyone in their dojo there isnt really anything usefull in that....

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by kendokamax
I see too much people staying in their own dojo and being able to beat everyone in their dojo there isnt really anything usefull in that....
My sensei has been clobbering us for over 20 years, and somehow managed to raise himself from yondan to rokudan in the process. I think it's a remarkable achievement to be able to improve your own kendo while mostly playing (much) inferior opponents. We have a seminar once a year where we bring in a strong (7dan+) instructor, and he makes it out to Vancouver every year or two but still...

When the nearest dojo with someone who can beat you is 1000 miles away, you tend to stay in your own dojo pretty much...

[kendokamax]

I don't think you or your sensei are an exemple of the kind of people I was talking about. I'm sure than your sensei is willing to meet other people so he can evaluate himself when he has the ocasion to do so!

I'm talking about people who are hiding and receive grade by just playing kendo a few times per week, with always the same people just to boost their ego and give themselves a certain importance. I mean if the high grading sensei you are talking about (murao sensei?) is coming to visit your dojo and people wouldnt even bother to come to the practice to try and received the most of his visit, what's the point? Trying to challenge the most people available (even if you HATE them or hate their kendo) is what I think is the most important(it's not always easy!).

I know the guys from the prairie(a big place in Canada!) are working a lot to make kendo strong there. I have a lot of respect for you guys and I want to take example of your perseverance.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by kendokamax
murao sensei?
Murao-sensei comes to the Winnipeg seminar each October and brings a couple of the top Steveston guys each time. At Saskatoon we've had lots of different people come as main instructors: Asaoka-sensei and his sons, Koike-sensei (from Seattle), Ohmi-sensei, Okusa-sensei, Haga-sensei (from Japan, he's Asaoka-sensei's sensei) and Tsumura-sensei. We usually have 1 or 2 assistant instructors come, including Bob Takagaki, Dave Mori, Dean Ara, Mako Hayashi and Bruce Campbell.

This year the main instructor is Tsumura-sensei again, with Wendy Nakano and Mako Hayashi assisting. We expect to see a few other 5 and 6 dan people show up as well. Anyone reading this is invited to come to Saskatoon March 1 and 2 this year. Air Canada and Westjet have seat sales right now, you can get here for reasonably cheap.

Thanks for the kind words.

[Hyaku]

I would have said a strong "Yes" Its an excellent method of self improvement.

Many years ago I was very green and had some weird idea that the Kendo community was some wonderful self improved group of people. But sady for some there is no hope!

Its not the be all and end all. I have met some real degenerates in Kendo and other Budo circles.

There are many people we can learn from in this world that have never had a kendo lesson in their entire life.

However for me I have managed to find a good teacher I am still learning from the kokoro of my Sohke

Hyaku

[ben]

I think kendo can make you a better person, in that it can make you painfully aware of your own shortcomings. What you do with that info is then up to you. I think the people who are most admirable are the ones who make the least noise.

What I love about kendo is that we go through these idealised, simplified actions thousands of times and eventually they become a part of us. Especially rei. Merleau-Ponty, the French phenomenologist, made the astoundingly simple observation that the way we fall asleep is by first lying down and imitating the posture or the condition of sleep. Then sleep comes upon us. In kendo I believe that we act humble (even if we're not, or not always), we pretend we are not afraid when our opponent throws themselves at us, we pretend and go through all the motions of the ideals of kendo. Then perhaps in the same way as sleep, we eventually enter into that condition for real.

b

[scbang]

Ben, You mean it's only autohypnosis? ( sounds a lot cheaper than what you said, how you said it. ) But I know it's true in many ways. What is the true self? Who am I? - One I am or The one I'm aspired to be?

SC

[Confound]

Now there's some existentialism for you. Has someone watched the last few episodes of Neon Genesis Evangelion a few too many times?

Kendou is like yoda's tree, you only find what you take with you. If you started kendou to become a better person, then you'll most likely achieve the goal. This sounds like a re-statement of Ben's point, and in some ways it is. I just like mentionning yoda.

(Incidentally, I was pleasantly surprised to see the Merleau-Ponty reference. That made my day. Thank you, Ben.)

c

[Atama]

I totally agree with ben and confound.....you only get out of kendo what you put in. I personally put everything into my kendo and I get out what I need, I tend to have a very short fuse and I have found that kendo helps me control my temper as I have found many times that I fence terrible when I'm angry I just loose my composure and kendo goes out the window and beating the crap outta someone with a stick comes in.

Am I a better person for doing kendo .... maybe ,maybe not but it sure as hell helps.

[inner_cent]

Originally posted by Confound
Now there's some existentialism for you. Has someone watched the last few episodes of Neon Genesis Evangelion a few too many times?

Kendou is like yoda's tree, you only find what you take with you. If you started kendou to become a better person, then you'll most likely achieve the goal. This sounds like a re-statement of Ben's point, and in some ways it is. I just like mentionning yoda.

(Incidentally, I was pleasantly surprised to see the Merleau-Ponty reference. That made my day. Thank you, Ben.)

c

MMm Another YOda Fan ??
Well, I'll worship on the Dark Vader then !!!!!

[Sinta]

Kendo indeed tries to improve you as a person. But in different ways. Kendo is not an easy sport (from my point of view). it shows you your shortcomings and gives you goals the minute you start. Goals that are achieveable with the right mindset. I believe kendo teaches determination. You become stronger. Your obstacle, an opponent, a short coming. How you can go passed it. It gives you more self confidence.

My few bits ;)

[Paburo]

there are many aspects to be taken care of though.
people try kendo for a whole variety of reasons, but generally you could say that kendo:

improves your speed, balance, coordination, strength, resistance, aim, etc

on a more mind level kendo improves your awareness, concentration, reflexes, etc

keiko is also a stress outlet. don't you guys feel a whole lot more relaxed and at peace after keiko? haven't you noticed that some people that are usually aggressive chill out after training?

heck, you even get to learn a little japanese and etiquette(if you're gaijin of course)

i guess if you improve in such ways both mentally and physically through keiko you can indeed say 'kendo makes you a better person' without a doubt.

[Marine_Boy]

Erm... I did kendo because my aikido sensei told me to...

No really, I had a choice between kendo or boxing. I chose kendo because although boxing can help me with my timing, distance, accuracy and speed. It doesn't allow the use of swords... unless it's the kind of no-holds-bar, UFC, barbwire ring boxing!:D

Besides, I've seen the guys in the boxing gyms in East London, and they're pretty mean looking. But I may still have a go in the future

stan:dead:

[Charlie]

And yet, boxers are among the most nice and respectful people you'll ever meet.

[MaxPayneWayne]

i really don't think kendo makes you into a better person. in fact i think for the most part, it makes you worse. well, that's only if you become either really good or have a high rank (which does not necessarily mean that you're good). i have met plenty of people who were really good, some who went to the world championships, and they were the biggest bunch of @$$-holes i ever met. i guess they become really cocky and think they can do whatever they want to do, or maybe they're just like that from the beginning, who knows? i also see when some people attain the rank of 4-dan (rank of a sensei in my region) or even at times 1-dan, they think they instantly become god's gift to kendo. if you're really good or have a high rank and are a pretty decent guy, then it's probably cause that's how you were from the beginning, and not because of kendo. i'm not gonna mention any names, but i remember a guy who actually yelled at the judges at the world championships in kyoto. this guy has been doing kendo for a long time, is 7-dan i believe, and is very good. now, if you constantly lose, and never ever win, then i'm sure you become more humble and probably a better person, but kendo is competition, and we all know that competition brings out the worst in people.

[MaxPayneWayne]

i really don't think kendo makes you into a better person. in fact i think for the most part, it makes you worse. well, that's only if you become either really good or have a high rank (which does not necessarily mean that you're good). i have met plenty of people who were really good, some who went to the world championships, and they were the biggest bunch of @$$-holes i ever met. i guess they become really cocky and think they can do whatever they want to do, or maybe they're just like that from the beginning, who knows? i also see when some people attain the rank of 4-dan (rank of a sensei in my region) or even at times 1-dan, they think they instantly become god's gift to kendo. if you're really good or have a high rank and are a pretty decent guy, then it's probably cause that's how you were from the beginning, and not because of kendo. i'm not gonna mention any names, but i remember a guy who actually yelled at the judges at the world championships in kyoto. this guy has been doing kendo for a long time, is 7-dan i believe, and is very good. now, if you constantly lose, and never ever win, then i'm sure you become more humble and probably a better person, but kendo is competition, and we all know that competition brings out the worst in people.

[Marine_Boy]

MaxPayneWayne, you'll find that type of arrogant character everywhere you go. But to say that kendo is a competition is not quite right and perhaps the discussion will on a different thread. But personally, I believe that those who join kendo for the martial aspect and not just scoring points tend to be less of a bunch of w*****s!

Just my thoughts.:)

Stan

[Sinta]

MaxPayneWayne -

As Marine_Boy, I too believe tha you find that type of character everywhere you go. Those are people who do not work by the kendo philosophy. I mean it's the same thing. Everyone can say they are a Kendoka, but how many actually follow its philosophy?

'RINEN' PHILOSOPHY
The Concept of Kendo

The concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through
the application of the principles of the Katana.

The purpose of Kendo is:
To mold the mind and body,
To cultivate a vigorous spirit,
And through correct and rigid training,
To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo;
To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,
To associate with others with sincerity,
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.

Thus will one be able
To love his country and society,
To contribute to the development of culture,
And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.

I believe the arrogant kendokas who you talk about, have kinda forgotten such a philosophy, thus making their own. One cannot judge kendo as a martial art by the actions of a few i-am-better-than-thou types. Kendo is meant to better a person. It has to be followed correctly. Or like any other teaching...it can be manipulated into something of one's own use.

My thoughts ^-^

[misterkurukuru]

I am an A-hole right!!!!!!!!! Kendo can make you a better person, but only if you do the budo side of it. If you do spots kendo, you dont really have to give a crap about anyhting but getting points. I went to a dojo in Japan that was about 4 hundred years old and the people there were really nice to me...but they were talking about chinese people and how they are too many of them. one man told me that chinese people are infesting the country like roaches, then he offered me some tea. Nice people....hmmm...i guess it depends on your race. Japanese people tend to be racist and they came up with the stuff that Sinta is talking about...sounds like a bit of the blarney to me.

[Sinta]

Originally posted by misterkurukuru
Japanese people tend to be racist and they came up with the stuff that Sinta is talking about...sounds like a bit of the blarney to me.

I don't know how you can judge a whole culture to be racist. Do you know each and every one of these people?

And stuff like this is found all around. In each barrel there's a bad apple . Chinese complain about the Tibets, Taiwanese, Hong Kong, Japanese about Chinese, Indonesian sects about each other, Americans about Filipino dog eaters, and then there are those religions against religions... but these are only a few people out of millions. It's a closed sad person who lives a backward life this way.

.....its from opinions like these, that cultures and the beauty of them are exterminated. I would think one would respect a culture and its people.

I wonder how you can consider yourself a Kendoka if you think the Philosophy that is taught with it is drivel.

[KhawMengLee]

Japanese about Chinese

I always thought the japanese and chinese ragged about the koreans:D (I'm chinese btw).

Well, Mr Kuru, fair comment and observation. But remember, the philosophies you are talking about are virtues and are not easily achieved.

Look at the term of "enlightenment" in Buddhism. Its a state that few individuals reach but can strive to reach. Therefor, the philosophies reached or discovered by those japanese people, were done so by exceptional people. Probably not the average joe who would make such racist comments.

**********************************************
Its always sad how a person is judged not as an individual but by a aspect of their race/culture/group in the eyes of others.

eg. I remember back in high school going to the Senior Ball/Prom and we were talking about each other's dates. One guy had decided to ask out a philipino(sorry, sinta) girl. The comment that followed was, "Hoi! You bringing your maid or what?!?"

We all laughed, I laughed and will not deny it.

Looking back at it, of course it was wrong, but why do we make such statements or have such opinions?

I realise now that there is definately a group mentality of opinions of one race on another. But I would ask them and myself whether you really believe that crap.

When someone makes a racist statement, do they, do you, truly believe it? Or do you do so out of fear, ignorance, arrogance, peer pressure, etc? Are we feeding our insecurities?

*******************************************


Japanese people tend to be racist and they came up with the stuff that Sinta is talking about...sounds like a bit of the blarney to me.

I think its wrong to think all japanese people(or any group of people) are racist and its just as wrong to think them all virtous and wise etc. As I said before virtue is hard to live by.

eg. just cause the Nazi party started in Germany doesn't mean all Germans are racist bigots. Or the rest of the stereotypes are trueeg. French are great lovers, all chinese are smart, all jews have money, all indeginous peoples have a inherent knowledge of the land, etc.

Firstly, we should treat everyone with civility, compassion and respect.

Secondly, judge not a person as a group/race but as an individual.


ps. not that there is anything wrong with people being maids, garbage collectors, street sweepers etc. Without these individuals society can't operate.

PEACE
MENG

[Sinta]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee



eg. I remember back in high school going to the Senior Ball/Prom and we were talking about each other's dates. One guy had decided to ask out a philipino(sorry, sinta) girl. The comment that followed was, "Hoi! You bringing your maid or what?!?"

We all laughed, I laughed and will not deny it.

Looking back at it, of course it was wrong, but why do we make such statements or have such opinions?

I realise now that there is definately a group mentality of opinions of one race on another. But I would ask them and myself whether you really believe that crap.


...I'm half filipina (half swiss of course, and spanish ancestor filipina..) ...*sniff sniff* ... *grabs shinaii and chases Khwang* You owe me to stand still and get a smacking for that. *g*

But yeah I know what you mean. People make jokes of simple things, which at the time they don't realize that it's wrong. Discrimination can be the faintest bit of blemish in our civilization.. like a simple joke.

[kendomushi]

I have to say that in 10 years of doing kendo here in Japan I have never met what I would call a "bad" person. I have met a few arrogant ones though.
Most of the people who stick with kendo seem to be decent people to start with. Maybe kendo helps them stay that on some level, but kendo in and of itself cannot create such a person I think.
Having said that, I would not call most of the Japanese I know racist, but my experience of the culture is that it is insular and zenophobic in many ways. That leads people to often think, say, or do racist things and they don't even realize they are being racist. Still to be honest, I find it easier to be a gaijin living here than to be a Japanese living here.

[nodachi]

I would have to agree with many of you. For the most part, most of the Japanese I have met are nice people. Most of the kendoka I have met here are wonderful people. In daily life though, I do agree that when there is something said that is bordering on racism, they don't even realize that it might be interpreted that way. I think it stems from the fact that they are still not used to different people and cultures being in their society. Growing up in America, where there are so many different people in one place, there is exposure to all sorts of philosophies/ideas/lifestyles, I don't think about someone else's culture or behaviors because I am used to seeing a lot of different people. However Japan is still a very homogeneous society. Hence, they don't have the experience of dealing with different cultures as much. The younger generation seems to be open and interested in foreigners and foreign culture and be a little more accepting, but many of the older generation is still very closed. The country may have openned up, but the older generation is still maintaining a closed attitude.

Does not apply to everyone I have met, but mostly true for my experience here and many of the people here. I think the older generation is going to have to die off first before Japan becomes a more accepting, less racist sounding, less zenophobic place. Give it about 50 years and it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

[Marine_Boy]

Don't want to sound like a moan everyone... but I'm getting back on my high horse again...:beard:

misterkurukuru, I believe that on kendo forum we could all give our own opinions, but one should still be careful about what we put down and how we phrase it. What you said about the japanese people being racist, even though it was what you experienced and felt that it was relevant to making your point, it did (in my mind) make you also sound like a racist. Not that I am saying you are one, but one must still be careful how our intentions are put across.

On a lighter tone:D Sinta, didn't know that you're half filipina. I was born in HK so I've been told some of those comments.

Anyhoo.

Stan

[Sinta]

Originally posted by Marine_Boy


On a lighter tone:D Sinta, didn't know that you're half filipina. I was born in HK so I've been told some of those comments.


Yeah, I kinda understand where such comments come from. I mean, it's quite obvious that filipino/a workers go over to the mainland to find jobs as maids and stuff. It's to be taken as a light joke, but then as I said, discrimination can be found in the most innocent of jokes :)

*fluffs up a fancy feather duster in a french maid outfit* j/k!!!!! *hides* :D

[misterkurukuru]

DID I WRITE ALL JAPANESE PEOPLE ARE RACISTS???? hmmm are we having trouble reading ??? If i made the statemnt that there are racists in the US...would you jump all over me and say "ot all Americans a racists" huh? you are just say what i am saying with diffrent words. not all Japanese people are racists, but there are some who are. OH yea and I have heard more( not all <- geeze if i dont say that people assume that i mean all)
nihonjins complain about koreans then chinese. In America people dont care that much about the pinay and pinos . I dont mean dont care in a bad way, i mean they are not the biggest targets of hatered as they once were before the time of WW2.
If kendo makes you a better person, i dont think its working too well.

[KhawMengLee]

DID I WRITE ALL JAPANESE PEOPLE ARE RACISTS????

Er, well...Yes, you kinda did...



Japanese people tend to be racist and they came up with the stuff that Sinta is talking about...sounds like a bit of the blarney to me.

See:eek: :D

[kendomushi]

Sinta,
There won't be many people from the Philippines going to HK for work anyore. I just read on the BBC world service yesterday that the Philippine government will no longer process work contracts and paperwork for people to go HK for work. Their reason is the second cut in the minimum salary of such domestic workers (equal to about US $51) and a new tax increase on such salaries (of another US$51). This is apparently to encourage people to fire their Philippine staffs and hire local migrants from the Chinese mainland.

[Sinta]

Hrm, I must've missed that. Been out of the country for so long. I find it actually a good idea (someone might hit me now though). I think the Pinoys should work in the Philippines, figure a way to fix the economy instead of going to another country. ...or am I wrong? Sure I mean, the poor become maids to go to chinese mainland to make money for those at home... but I believe if the government has the pressure of them not being able to go over there, maybe arroyo will wake up and try to figure out jobs for these people. I mean, PH is really way behind compared to other asian countries. They should start taking care for its people and their jobs.

Sue me, I'm the upper class Pinay. Maybe I don't know the whole story, but where there's a will, there's a way... *smacks corrupty ppl*

[kendomushi]

I have to agree with you. My limited time in the Philippines has been great, lovely people, friendly, open, warm, welcoming. But its amazing to me that even all these years after the rule of the Marcos' it seems like nothing of substance has changed. Granted almost everyone has a cell phone and access to an internet cafe, but for crying out loud most areas still have power failures almost daily! roadsa re a mess, and I could go on for days. Hopefully the people will finally do something to force the government to be better people and make some progress there. Let people stay home and find decent jobs instead of having to go overseas for domestic or unsafe jobs.

[Marine_Boy]

misterkurukuru, there's no need to get into an aggressive manner about your thoughts. If you can't keep your cool about it, perhaps you should keep your opinions to yourself.

Stan.

[KhawMengLee]

Maybe he should just read what he writes before going all huffy and puffy:D

[misterkurukuru]

i guess kendo has not made some humans into better people. people have come out of the blue again with the personal attacks. Come on guys you are lowering yourselves to "my" level again. Have we learned nothing? do more kendo guys so that you both can become better people, thats what this thread is about. Stay on subject or shut your pie holes! Huffy is a bike brand and puffy is Puff daddy or the music group from japan; I am neither.

[KhawMengLee]

And once again for your benefit Mr Kuru

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DID I WRITE ALL JAPANESE PEOPLE ARE RACISTS????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Er, well...Yes, you kinda did...



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Japanese people tend to be racist and they came up with the stuff that Sinta is talking about...sounds like a bit of the blarney to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



See, you can't get more generalised about what you said.

************************************************

Amazing how Kuru jumps topic when he is proven wrong, instead of taking it like an adult and admitting to the mistake.

hohoho
MENG

[Ares2907]

Every time I wonder if I've been too hasty by killfiling someone, there's a quote or a repost that immediately makes me feel justified. Cheers Meng.

[misterkurukuru]

did i say i wasnt generalizing???? huh retard??? no i didnt! geeze
I will agree with you !! yes i generalized, i have agreed with you alot! i am not a good person, i am not the greatest in the world, and i dont know everything. What do i not get??? All i am saying is that attacking me when i agree with you about myself is dumb!
You sound like a broken record! next your are gonna write down water is wet ten billion times! I dont jump topics i always respond! And i dont even know what your point is?????? next post tell me what your point is! i generalize deal with it!

[misterkurukuru]

do you have anything to say about sempai kohai and not about me???

[ben]

I'm getting a headache from all the noise.
*ker-plunk*

[KhawMengLee]

JESUS:eek: ...usually Mr Kuru makes no sense at all but that one just made extra no sense(if it is possible)...I feel that everyone who reads his posts either gets (as in ben's case) a headache or just gets stupider...

*ker-plunk*

[Marine_Boy]

I don't want to make anymore fuss as it isn't very nice to be arguying on forums (sorry ben). But when I really feel for a cause I'll just say it!:mad:

misterkurukuru what started out as an non-agressive remark (and some friendly advice) on your comment from myself and meng has somehow put you on firstly offencive then turning abusive stance. There's no need for that.

Now if you can't have a polite conversation or at least use some tact in slagging others off, you should take yourself and your comments elsewhere. Preferably somewhere the sun don't shine.

I know you'll react madly and most probably in a violent way to this. But I've said it and this view may not be the general concensus of all those who've read your comments on this thread; but all feel free to back me up if you so wish to.

I again apologise to all on this thread for this reply since it is both unrelated to the original topic and in its content. I shall not make further comments on what misterkurukuru will have to say in this thread.

Stan

[Sinta]

Backing asked. Backing given. *nodsnods*

I have to agree with Marine_Boy. This thread started harmless, only to be blown up by someone who cannot accept that he did make a mistake goes abusive against other forum goers. Comments such as "did i say i wasnt generalizing???? huh retard??? " are just not welcome and are childish. I would think to expect some maturity in these forums.

This thread was about kendokas being a better person through kendo... I don't know if that worked for you that you bring up abusive comments. Maybe it's because you really believe philosophy and aim of kendo "sounds like a bit of the blarney to me."

I'm done with this subject *goes onto happier pleasant things*

[munenmuso]

Hey, about those Filipino maids..... call them names but here we call them unsung heroes and in most cases, they are more educated than their bosses because most of them are highly qualified and respected teachers. Economic depression forced them to leave their noble professions in exchange of a high paying wage abroad and become domestic helpers. But that doesn't make them lesser beings subjected to any lesser insults. They keep a nation alive from their dollars sent back home. They might bend their knees to scrub your floors but a whole nation like ours is waiting for them to come back home where immeasureable respect and deep admiration is always in order, a heroes welcome. So the next time you see one, try to give respect, even a small one.

Sorry for being sensitive....:)

[KhawMengLee]

Of course mate! Heh, I spent some time scrubbing floors in my time too.:D

Its an honest job, no disrespect meant to them at all.

[Jklak]

Every time I say ”onegai shimasu” before Keiko starts I try to understand what it really means.
I hope that there will be a day when I act also so outside Dojo.