Restricting the use of Tsuki

[M.K. Kawai]

Call me old fashioned or hard headded, but I have a few qualms about Kendo today. One of them is the use of Tsuki by people who are clearly not qualified to do it! Especially, by people who are not even Yudansha!

In fact, I have problems with people who are 3-dan and below using it. People may think that I'm being unreasonable or that I maybe making much ado about nothing, but the fact remains that Tsuki is the most dangerous point to attempt in Kendo.

If done improperly, it can seriously HURT or even KILL someone!

Back when I was trainning and making my way up the ranks the thought of anyone below 4-dan doing tsuki was out of the question. It was strongly discouraged for Kenshi to attempt to do a Tsuki. But now times have changed and some Kenshi do it because they saw someone do it and it looked "cool."

All I can say is, how cool would it look if someone got hurt recieving a Tsuki... or worse... that person died? There was a reason why learning Tsuki was discouraged until you were at least 4-dan or higher.

It may look simple but, it requires a tremendous amount of control, confidence in one's kamae, and one's skill as a Kenshi.

When done properly it is an effective waza, but when done improperly it will cause more than just a bruise.

I've ranted on too long on this. But, this is what think and how I feel about this issue.

MKK

[KATSUJIN]

well....wat u say is true....but not all those who do tsuki r above 3-dan....i have seen some people below 3-dan who can do a pretty smooth tsuki without injuring others.....so maybe this decision of doing tsuki should lie with the individual.....he or she should know whether he or she is strong enough in their own basics in order to do tsuki.......

[don_lubo]

Yes M.K. Kawai i agree too with you.

[KhawMengLee]

Hmmnnn...I was never

[KhawMengLee]

sorry...pressed the wrong button...

but as I was saying:

I was initially against the idea of doing tsuki. In my dojo in Perth no one does tsuki unless you really don't like the person(or its against jodan in shiai). In fact in our last tournament, because it was mixed grades, tsuki was banned.

But over here in Malaysia its used often. I got a nice rude awakining on my first training back during jigeiko when my partner tsukied me. Luckily he tried it one handed and I held my ground, cuz when he hit the tsuki the shinai went flying out of his hands...heh

Now I use tsuki once in a while but mainly as a initial attack followed by Men or Kote.etc.

I agree its a dangerous technique but if practiced properly it should be like any other waza.

MENG

[nodachi]

I know my sensei hasn't given me approval to do tsuki yet so I won't. Of course I am super new and know that all too well. However, at least with me, even after my sensei says it's okay, my own personal concern for the safety of others will prevent me from using it unless I feel really sure of it. So I think that if the individual is mature enough to be honest with their own abilities, then they can decide when is a good time. Although it is nice to get sensei's mutual approval so as not to cause a ruckus in the dojo.

[Atama]

One question if you don't use tsuki until your over 3rd dan how are you going to become competant at it.......after all practice makes perfect and surley even practicing tsuki with a partner can be dangerous. But is that not kendo, there are risks in every sport right, practitioner are aware that if your hitting someone with bamboo theres a chance you might get hurt. We are told not to do tsuki on anyone under 2nd dan and that kyu grades should never attempt it. I think dojo's should practice tsuki more with lower dan to ensure their competance in this technique.

[AlexM]

I like doing tsuki despite my low rank and I want to keep practicing it when playing kendo.

I personally think the danger associated with that waza is a bit exaggerated (fast foward to next week when there's an announcement of my death from tsuki on the boards). I said this in another thread where tsuki was discussed but here it goes again: I have never been injured by tsuki in jikeiko or shiai (despite them being thrown by mostly by people well under 3rd dan), I get hurt by tsuki in kihon when I actually have to receive the hit (thus dislocating my jaw, bruising my throat, etc.).

It's been my (limited) experience that tsuki is just so hard to get (all that aite must do is block only slightly to the side) that if someone manages to get it it's usually because their competent enough to control it. Beginners (I should probably put myself in this category) that try tsuki usually don't go anywhere (we don't reach the target, the hit is blocked, even if it gets through we're so surprised that we forget about zanshin, etc.) so the risk of injury is limited (and you can just oji waza after that anyway). As long as you're not trying to kill the opponent (or angry because of something) the hit really shouldn't be terribly hard, no?

One last point, kendo is a fairly dangerous sport or martial art (whichever you prefer) no matter what (it's not skydiving but that's fine by me). My scarriest moment came when I went for a straight "men" on someone and they tried to do the same thing but started late. I took his shinai straight on the throat (behind the guard), my head snapped back and I had to stop right there (I did get the hit though :D ). If he had hit a few centimeters to the left he would have landed on my trachia and it could have been much worse than it was. This is just to say that injuries to the throat would probably still happen if tsuki were banned forever (Heaven forbid).

As for the broader implications of banning certain waza for certain rankings I say BOLLOCKS! (I love that expression! :) ) Age groups I could understand (and even then it might get out of hand. . .) but not rankings. My understanding is that you either do kendo or you don't. I don't believe in doing half-kendo (well mine is bad but not that bad). Besides, how am I supposed to get better at something if I don't practice it? By "not" doing it?

[Steve]

I suppose its up to the individual Dojo to decide when people are or are not to do tsuki. Delaying it till >3rd Dan is fine, but teaching it earlier helps people learn the basics more quicky, IMO.

It teaches control, how to obtain centre, and is the basis for "small waza". As far as actually attacking with it in geiko, no, not everyone should just go out and do it. But, once a kendoka is comfortable with their kamae, has enough control and sense of mind to not just thrust wildly, they should go for it. WITH the permission of their partener of course.

Pretty subjective topic tsuki is!

[saki_wooah]

Well, if tsuki is dangerous when it's done badly (when the shinai slides on the side to enter the men), we could change the men construction... a men that will be safer to do tsuki on...

It's true that it would be stupid to nearly die during a kendo practice because a beginner did tsuki on you... (well anyway you could die when crossing a street). I think we should practice tsuki during kihon to learn it correctly and then add it in keiko later when you mastered it. Something like that... I did some great tsuki in kihon last practice (don't know why but doing tsuki on that partner [t-a] feels easier to do than on other people ?_?), but I don't really feel confortable to do some in keiko. I'm still 2nd kyu and a 14-year-old girl... There's no seperate classes in our dojo (not enough instructors) so all the underage (well 2 of us) the dan and kyu people practice tsuki once in a while...

[gill]

I was very wary of tsuki for years, as I have been injured twice by it - the first time got me on the upper arm, and I had a massive bruise for weeks, the second time was on the collar bone, and I was screaming blue murder - it was extremely painful. Both times the person who tsukied me were 5th Dan.

I think tsuki should be practiced more in kihon so that people can learn how to do it properly. The reason people get injured is because people are trying to impale them on the end of their shinai. Tsuki should have te-no-uchi like everything else.

I now practice tsuki when I see the opportunity, and have actually landed some nice ones - but I am still very wary - but that is what makes me miss! If I am worried about making the strike I miss - if I just go for it - it's fine :D

Gill

[Ares2907]

AlexM - sounds like you micht have been lifting your head before/during your strike - 99% of the time that sort of incident you described is caused by 'rubberneck-syndrome'.

Gill - totally agree about more tsuki practise needed during waza training (as far as beginners etc are concerned). I am happy to practise tsuki with anyone during waza training. The issue that I have with tsuki use in keiko is that if someone wants to use tsuki, they have to be prepared to receive it also (often with interest). A competent kendoka should be able to counter an inept tsuki strike in much the same manner as any other badly executed strike, however imho, someone that does not know how to receive a tsuki is more likely to get into problems taking a tsuki in keiko.
In that respect, beginners are probably better advised not to try tsuki on kendoka of their own level and to ask permission before trying it on their seniors.

[ben]

I agree that it is a dangerous technique but it is *v.important* to learn both how to do it and receive it. I agree that more time should be spent practising tsuki as kihon with all grades. I also think yudansha should give permission for their aite to use it on them in jigeiko, based on the sempai's knowledge of their kohai's ability, not whether they have a dan grade.

Back when I was training and making my way up the ranks, I too was discouraged from doing tsuki. The end result of that is now my tsuki is very poor. Whenever Japanese 4-dans visit our club I am embarassed by my poor technique as compared to theirs.

So yes MKKawai, I hearby call you both "old-fashioned" and "hard-headded" (sic).
;)
b

[M.K. Kawai]

I'm not saying that we should ban Tsuki (although I won't be sad if it were:D ). I'm just saying that there should be restrictions on using it.

My concern is out of safety for all Kenshi. I would expect a person with the rank of 4 Dan to know the hazards of using Tsuki better than someone who is Shodan. I wouldn't expect a non-Yudansha Kenshi to fully understand this because their first and foremost thing for them to focus on is improving their basic skills and wazas.

Tsuki when done properly is one of the most effective wazas a Kenshi can have in their arsenal. But, it is dangerous to use. To take joy in using Tsuki is IMHO not taking seriously the danger associated with it. Failure to recognize this point will lead to excessive use of it and create more opportunity for injury to occur. This IMHO is showing disrespect and a disregard for the safety and well being of your fellow Kenshi.

Yes, Kendo like any martial art is fairly dangerous. But, there is a huge difference between getting a hard hit to the Kote vs a hard thrust to the Tsuki. One will leave a nice big fat bruise and the other can cause more that just a bruise -- it can cause death.

[Sigh] There I go ranting and raving again.

MKK

[AlexM]

Originally posted by M.K. Kawai

My concern is out of safety for all Kenshi. I would expect a person with the rank of 4 Dan to know the hazards of using Tsuki better than someone who is Shodan. I wouldn't expect a non-Yudansha Kenshi to fully understand this because their first and foremost thing for them to focus on is improving their basic skills and wazas.
MKK

Really? I find that tsuki looks scarriest for rank beginners. They see people going for the other person's throat knowing full well that the armor isn't the best protection in the world. I know that's what I thought when seeing for the first times. It frightened me a bit (you must understand that a year or two previous a hockey player almost died on the ice during an NHL game in Montréal when he was hit in the throat with a puck: he survived only because they had doctors and an ambulance right there and then). Then, when I had received a few and dished a few out, I understood that it really isn't so dangerous. I honestly don't think that you need to be a 4th dan to understand that it's risky and you need control to execute it properly (I don't need a degree in sports medicine to know that getting hit with bamboo will leave a bruise either. . . It's just common sense). The hazards appear worse for beginners.

As for not getting joy out of a good tsuki. . . Can't agree with that at all. It's one of the toughest moves to pull off, you should be happy when you get it. I even feel a bit happy for my opponent when I receive it because I know that he or she just nailed me. Because one takes joy from something doesn't imply a lack of respect for the adversary or a lack of seriousness. In fact, one could argue that it is better to perform tsuki when in a "joyfull" mood rather than when angry.

Ares - You got me. I flinch and bring my head up when I attack. You should have seen my neck two weeks ago, I had a collar of red welts from an adversary who would simply stick his shinai on my throat whenever I went for men. . . I did 20-25 minutes straight of jikeiko with him.

[kendokamax]

Isn't Tsuki the most basic technique of kendo??

I don't think it is really most dangerous when beginners use it..They can't really make it work...and also..a direct hit to the throath is just a "freak accident" it can happen to anyone , whatever the grade.

[M.K. Kawai]

Kendokamax,

Unfortunately, Tsuki is not the most basic technique in Kendo. Although one would think that it should be. The fact of the matter is that it is the most dangerous point to attempt in Kendo. That's why it was strongly discouraged for most Kenshi below 4-Dan, especially those who weren't Yudansha. Well, that was then...

What you posted clearly highlighted one of the points I was trying to get at. If you factor in all the bad habits that beginners have, such as not keeping their heads down when they go in to hit, using too much strength, etc. with someone coming in with Tsuki, what do you get? A disaster waiting to happen.

As a sensei myself I would not want to put my Kenshi in harms way by unnecessarily having them divert their attention from mastering a good kamae, footwork, and hitting a solid kote, men, and do. I hope this addressed your post? I'm trying not to write a novel here:D

AlexM,

There is a big difference between getting a joy in achieving something and just enjoying doing something just for the thrill of it.

I get a "joy" out of hitting a good kote, men, or do. That doesn't mean that I enjoy hitting kote, men, or do. My focus at my level isn't about having fun in hitting someone, but more on what techniques I have to beat my opponent. Joy to me is measured in terms of the intensity of the fight between me and my opponent. Also, another thing that gives me joy is seeing my students achieve their personal goals and succeed in becoming better Kenshi. But, I digress...

From where I sit it looks like you get a few shots in -- great. But, do you really understand the potential consquence of your actions? I don't see that from you at this time.

Doing Tsuki or any strike for that matter just does not encompass whether you can do it or receive it. It is also about putting yourself in your opponents position and determining whether that person will create a situation that would spell disaster. It's about looking at your fellow Kenshi and recognizing that there may be some who can receive Tsuki and the rest can not. Kenshi with the same rank does not mean that they have the same skill. In a dynamic situation, conditions do exist that would put a Kenshi at risk of being seriously harmed by a Tsuki. I've seen it from my POV. Have you? If you have, you would not be so quick to trivialize the safety issue.

MKK

[Atama]

I honestly belief the reason tsuki is so dangerous is because of this stigma attached to it, if we use more in kihon it will become as familiar as a men cut. As for the injuries i've taken a few bad tsuki's but I've had more bruises from the classic (arm pit) do cuts and i've been knocked out twice by heavy handed cromagnum men..... but thats kendo.

[saki_wooah]

I remember some tsuki in myy beginner practice w/out bogu. We did some tsuki on someone else's shinai (someone put a shinai vertically and you just have to hiconcentrate and hit where the throat should be)... I guess that if beginner practice that more often the result in bogu wouldn't be too dangerous...

[kendo_chick]

Originally posted by M.K. Kawai

Unfortunately, Tsuki is not the most basic technique in Kendo. Although one would think that it should be. The fact of the matter is that it is the most dangerous point to attempt in Kendo. That's why it was strongly discouraged for most Kenshi below 4-Dan, especially those who weren't Yudansha. Well, that was then...



I believe this is not correct. what can be more basic then doing a lunging step (proper footwork) and not moving your shinai? I believe that this thread is focusing too much on using tsuki as a point in kendo.

Several sensei have told me that in order to understand all the other strikes in Kendo, you must first understand the tsuki strike. If everything in Kendo is based from your center, how can tsuki not be the most basic?

[M.K. Kawai]

Kendo_Chick,

Tsuki is not a basic technique. If it were every beginner would learn to do Tsuiki first. When I refer to basic technique, I am referring to the techniques that will form the foundation upon which your Kendo waza will be built upon.

My concept of basic technique for a beginner is kamae, footwook and striking men. Everything else is built off of that foundation. Tsuki is nowhere in that equation. If it were, I would have taught that over 25 years ago when I started Kendo.

What your senseis are refering to, is that as a Kenshi progresses from striking big to striking small, at some point that Kenshi must think about striking efficiently. I can write a novel about this but I don't want bore you with unnecessary details. What it boils down to is that any movement in the tip, no matter how slight, results in a slower and inefficient strike.

I'm sure that you might have heard, "keep your tip still until you are ready to strike." One of the techniques on doing that is to have the Kenshi zero in on the Tsuki and at the last possible moment strike men. This concept is easier said than done. For me, it has only been recently that I have been able to truly understand what my senseis were really telling and it has improved my Kendo. I'm sure the same thing will happen to you when you do realize what your senseis were really teaching you (I hope it doesn't take as long as it did me:D ).

[Sigh] There I go on my soap box again:(

Anyway, bottomline... Tsuki is a technique in Kendo (and a very effective one when done properly), but it is not, in my book, a basic technique; one that I would want to teach a beginner. Hope this helps...

MKK

[JSchmidt]

Tsuki might be the 'simplest' technique, but as with anything in kendo: If it's simple, it's very difficult!.
(I mean, to cut men, all we have to do is to raise and lower our arms, while taking a step forward...sounds easy, right?).
Tsuki involves controlling the center, creating an opening and then thrust, while maintaining posture and center and showing zanshin. (If we hit the rather small target that is).
Having said that, I do think that it should be showed and practiced under controlled circumstances relativly early on.
There's a lot of fear and mystery about this technique going around (Just look at the hiki-tsuki thread!), which makes people extremly hungry for information. (Anything 'hidden' will always attract attention).
I'll use it against jodan and once in a blue moon when fighting in chudan (against chudan)...and then it's usually as a nidan waza.
I've recieved my fair share of them, but then I also fight in jodan :).

Jakob

[hamish]

There's a lot more to doing a tsuki strike during jigeiko than just stepping forward and poking the shinai into your opponent's tsuki-dare, and a lot more things that can go wrong than doing the same thing in kihon.

Too many beginners/lower dan grades are tense enough (Atama, you were knocked out twice by men cuts!!?) as it is, let alone trying to relax their whole body and respond instantly as a tsuki goes wrong in mid-execution. Landing on the back of your head after receiving a mis-timed tsuki is a lot more serious than just a bruised neck or throat.

There's a lot more kendo skill and experience needed beyond the technique itself.

Hamish

[scbang]

I don't use tsuki very often except against jodan. But lately I started use tsuki as a way of opening opponents kamae and do nidan waza ( normally men or kote ).
Do I still need to ask for a permission for this?

One comment about tsuki: Not only it makes you nervous for missed ones but even the good ones are not very pleasant to receive. Is this becaus of its unpleasant feeling or we're just not used to it. ( Lord knows how many men I took and I know of no kakari geiko or Jigeko involving tsuki )

Your thoughts? SC

[Kenshi]

Sleepless and browsing so ....

I think its not only fundamental to kendo to learn to tsuki, but you must also be tsuki'ed ...... lack of people doing this to you will surely create a false sense of security in your kamae - for want of a better description - an "empty and obvious hole." One day you will come up against someone who is very good at tsuki and they will keep hitting you ... and you'll be like "why do they hit me no matter what I do" yada yada etc etc, maybe even "they dont like me and are evil [whatever!]" .. its possible.. but maybe its just that "empty and obvious hole" again.

One method of practising tsuki in jigeiko is discuss it with your partner prior to practise - yay or nay, katate or morote etc etc. There are a few people I practise with where tsuki is actively practised ... if an attempt isn't made i'm surprised!

If someone hits you and you dont like it then add some drama ... give it the 2 minute rest and the head between the knees.. they wont do it again!! [hopefully]

One japanese godan here in london is v.good at tsuki. His teacher in japan is famous for it.... he's teaching me .... watch out JAKOB!

p.s. I am not condoning irrational violence! [or rational for that matter]

Argh, its 3:43am ...

[JSchmidt]

"One japanese godan here in london is v.good at tsuki. His teacher in japan is famous for it.... he's teaching me .... watch out JAKOB!"

I know :)..First time 'officially' in jodan, I actually practiced with him...he told me at the pub that he didnt use tsuki, because I was no threat (yet) with my jodan.

Jakob

[M.K. Kawai]

scbang,

As a courtesy you should always ask to do Tsuki on someone. I'll let you read my previous post on what I believe ideal conditions for practicing Tsuiki are. I would also add one more thing to that... do it after practice is officially over. You can focus better on what you are doing and can have the complete attention of your sensei to monitor and correct your technique. Remember, Tsuki is dangerous to use so you want to create an environment that minimizes these risks as much as possible.

Under no circoumstances practice Tsuki on someone who is non-Yudansha. They have enough to worry about already.

Now with regard to how you feel about using Tsuki... The feeling you have is natural and a byproduct of both factors. Never, ever forget that feeling. It will help to in the long run in determining when to use it and when not to use it.

You'll find out eventually that while Tsuki is a nice to have in your arsenal, you'll only use it more for special circumstances more than anything else.

A Kenshi can go through their entire career without ever learning to use Tsuki, but can never be much of a Kenshi if they don't master their basic fundamentals (refer to my previous post) and learning different wazas.

Hope this helps...

MKK

[mingshi]

Originally posted by M.K. Kawai
Under no circoumstances practice Tsuki on someone who is non-Yudansha.

It's only in ZNKR regualtion that Tsuki is not allowed for high school students or any one younger. When you consider in Japan, most high school Kendoka are Nidan, then you'll see it's not about the rank, but rather the growth and safety for the teenagers.

The concept of Tsuki is fundamental to all. Because the shinai is not a sword, it poses less threat to your opponent. But most of the time you stay in Chudan-no-Kamae, as the tip of your shinai will be pointing against your opponent's throat (Tsuki). When you cut and show Zanshin, at the end your shinai always goes back to Chudan. Same reason-- to keep your opponent further away from you.

Hence Tsuki is an important technique worth studying. Especially when Seme comes in place. Eg, Seme-->Men.

Back in to times when I go Jikeiko with some high grades. Whenever I get closer from Issoku-Itto, just expect plenty of Tsuki. Since they always keep their center well, there is no chance for me to strike back (Tsuki, Men or anything... Ended up backing to the wall). So I don't understand why Tsuki will be dangerous. If you are at the right posture, you can perform any of the Oji-waza. Even an Ikkyu student knows that from Kendo Kata #3.

There used to be a Shodan Korean (for 10 year+) who tsuki me real hard. There is another Shodan Korean who tsuki me real hard but missed on my collar bone (what's that called...?). I "revenged" the next class and pay him back with a pretty straight one.

A few weeks ago when I was in Hong Kong there was this local Godan+ militant (yeah, militants are everywhere) losing a few Gyaku-do from me. Then he did a couple of tsuki (...with rage). All missed. In the last one, the shinai tip was caught in the "hole" between my Men wing and the throat guard. Lol.

When a target is opened why can you go for it? Can you imagine some Naginata-ka who keeps whacking your shin pads going, "So you want to cut my shins too? Wait till you are 3rd dan!! Now, take more of my Sune!"??

Speaking of the most dangerous cuts... I guess you should first ban Do, then Men. Today I got massive whacks in my ribs TWICE during Do-kihon!! I almost fell on the ground. Before Xmas in a Kirikaeshi session, a beginner smite a Yokomen on my right ear(lesson: always receive with a shinai properly, even if that beginner was not cutting the right place). And I did fall to the ground that time, thinking that my eardrum was broken. (Then got back to consciousness after 30 sec on the floor)

(Enough complain. My ribs still hurts. Ouch.)

[KhawMengLee]

It amazes me how fast high ranking (eg. Godan ++) can regain a strong center. I was sparring with my Sensei here in Malaysia and every time I broke center and went in for the attack I would find myself impaled on his shinai.

When I watch him fight against others I can see how fast he regains a strong chudan. Knock his shinai aside and he'll zip it back into your tsuki. Actually, looking at it now...I also realize that one of the major faults I/we have is that breaking center and the strike are two movements not one. Meaning it is easier to read then attack....hmmnnn...must make note of this...

I also like watching him do a proper tsuki attack, he seems to just slide it over, using the opponent's shinai as a balancing point, then BAM!

So what BTW is a good method to do tsuki?

[Paburo]

it's not the technique. it's how you perform it.
i've personally received a lot of missing tsukis that landed on my neck/throat and i can still breathe.

and i've also seen 6th dans missing 4 tsukis straight and doing no harm.

kendo can be dangerous if you have a 'killing' attitude (see that poor kenshi up there whose rib and ear are being hammered every class) and just not by doing tsuki. think of it, most of the body is not covered by the armour.

[scbang]

A Kenshi can go through their entire career without ever learning to use Tsuki, but can never be much of a Kenshi if they don't master their basic fundamentals (refer to my previous post) and learning different wazas.

Hope this helps...

MKK

Yes, it's very helpful.. Thanks. SC

[etherknot]

Interesting thread. I personally in my yearful of kendo have not given or recieved tsuki. I've seen it seldom done in our dojo.

However; at practice last Sunday... My naginata fellow and I were discussing Things to Do When You are Both In Jodan and he mentioned tsuki. Which I knew about but I'm not about to use against him. Not yet anyways. :D
But it is funny because soon after showing me this he decided to go join in jigeiko I noticed that he was quite up for using tsuki on everybody. I think that at least everyone who he went against got it at least once.
I of course was paying most attention to him to see how they deal with naginata and I heard from some other group:
"Was that tskui?" -laughing
"Uh... yeah."-kinda playing it off.

so the lesson here about tsuki is:
Tsuki unto others as you would have them tsuki unto you.
:D

[Ares2907]

imnsho a kenshi could go through their entire career without learning to use tsuki, but they'd be a fundamentally flawed kenshi. Fundamentals are (of course) the basis from which all things in kendo spring. Tsuki is a part of those fundamentals. I do not believe that is supposed to be taboo until a certain rank. In keiko, perhaps, but I believe that beginners should learn this technique along with the rest of their basics.

[M.K. Kawai]

Ares2907,

Read my previous posts and while you're at it, ask yourself this question, which is more important... hitting a good Men or Tsuki?

There is a very good reason why all Kenshi practice suburi instead of tsuki drills during warm up. Every major strike (minus Tsuki) is derived from hitting Men.

The late Torao Mori Sensei (before the time of the promotional exams) was asked by one of his students when will he be promoted. Mori sensei's reply was, "When you have done 10,000 suburi."

The student countered, "But, I've done more than 10,000 suburi since I've been here."

To which Mori sensei replied, "10,000 GOOD suburi."

Moral of the story, Men is a fundamental technique of Kendo not Tsuki. Refer to my previous post about what I believe some of the other fundamentals of Kendo are.

There is a time when a Kenshi may want to learn Tsuki. However, a beginner who just picked up a shinai for the first time and has no concept of control is NOT the time that he or she should be practicing Tsuki. It is NOT necessary to include it in their basic practice. They have enough to worry about with their Kamae, footwork and hitting Men.

MKK

[kendokamax]

Aight so when is the good time to learn tsuki? 4th dan you say??
what about how many years in kendo? I don't know but I find it insulting! I have been doing kendo for only 2 years and half, I my tsuki is not more dangerous than anyone's else, I,m able to control my force...

Like someone said earlier....the most important is not the grade, but more the age of the kendoka in that case..kids doing tsuki might be dangerous

[Ares2907]

M.K. Kawai, you are entitled to your opinion, however I disagree with it. I believe that if you cannot do tsuki, then you cannot do men (and vice versa) understanding one is very important to understanding the other.
I have read your previous posts, I am generally not in the habit of running my mouth off without having *some* idea of the argument at hand.
I believe the argument you are quoting with Mori sensei has little to do with the merits of men over tsuki. I would be willing to bet that he would have agreed that practise of tsuki would be beneficial toward being able to do 10K good suburi.

A clarification if I may. I would not teach tsuki to a beginner in the initial stages of their development, however once in bogu I would have them learn initially how to receive it, then gradually how to execute the strike. I don't believe I ever advocated a raw beginner learning tsuki. I said beginners which I take to mean anyone up to and including sandan. Others will have their own idea about what a beginner is.

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine, however that does not make it gospel. You have developed a set of beliefs and ideas based on the training you have done, my experiences are apparenly different. Who is to say which is right and which is not? Probably no one. Certainly not you or me.

As for which is more important hitting tsuki or hitting men, to me that is like asking which is more important - planting a seed or watering it?
They are both inextricably interrelated. One may do one a lot more often than the other, but they are no less interrelated because of this.

[aru-ma]

Originally posted by kendokamax
Aight so when is the good time to learn tsuki? 4th dan you say??

Like someone said earlier....the most important is not the grade, but more the age of the kendoka in that case..kids doing tsuki might be dangerous

Hmmm....I dont think there's a "good time" to learn how to do tsuki, I started parcticing tsuki way before everyone else in my club were tought how to do it, and by the time we started doing tsuki I've already had some basics on it, doesn't mean I don't miss though.
I'm not quite sure but I guess this applies with every waza.

With regard to age if you're coming from a place where people started kendo at a young age (eg. Japan) then I guess it'd make sense but if you've only started kendo when you're 15 or at a later age I beleive that experience is more of a factor, dont you think so?

[Steve]

I'll have to respond here.

Ares2907: your last post states that somebody who cannot do Tsuki cannot do a MEN?! Not true. Learning Tsuki (which i am all for it!) teaches you how to strike "small waza" efficiently as M.K. Kawaii posted earlier. it also teaches concepts related to control of centre, control of kamae, etc..

BUT, it its not the basis for hitting a basic (big) men. All basic strikes (big) stem from this one action. Tsuki comes into play when the kendoka begins learning "small waza" and is a basis for performing that waza efficiently.

So, when should a kendoka add Tsuki to their basics? After they begin learning "small waza", IMO.

[mingshi]

The purpose of picking up a sword is to cut. It doesn't matter where you cut, wherther it is to the top, bottom or the sides.

The actions are all the same. I believe the level of perfection of your Men cuts are the same as those of your Tsuki. It's like, if you can do a couple of Men cuts, it wouldn't be difficult to cut Kote, etc.

Same for suburi. One Senpai reminds me that for Suburi you are not just swinging your arms, but you should also try reaching as far as you can with the tip of your sword. This is the principle concept of a Tsuki, so as Men, Kote, Do.

Don't forget that Suburi is not just Shomen. You can also have them at Kote and Do height.

One dojo I went to emphasize heavily on relaxing during Suburi. So instead of stopping at the Men level all the time, they only do Oki-suburi, which is a full swing from sword touching your back to sword 1 inch above floor. The more you do, the more your shoulders and arms will relax. When you get to 500 times or so you will really concentrate on using your hips...

Just some thoughts.:o I still don't agree with restricting Tsuki.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by mingshi
I believe the level of perfection of your Men cuts are the same as those of your Tsuki.
Tsuki is a thrust, not a cut and is therefore inherently different.

Personally, I think tsuki should be taught relatively early (like from ikkyu) but not used in jigeiko until competance is achieved. If it's practiced well, competence will come earlier than if not practiced therefore I can't state some absolute dan level.

If beginners want to experiment with tsuki, a much safer and better exercise is mune-tsuki. Just try to hold your centre and make mune-tsuki on your opponent. It's not a point, but it will improve your kamae.

[Ares2907]

Hmm perhaps I should have said that if you do not understand tsuki then you do not understand men. Hey it's a personal opinion and I'm more than happy to hear other people's arguments about it. I find the more vehemently I defend a position, the less likely I am able to see it from a new perspective. Nonetheless, I still believe that men and tsuki are interrelated. It's something more than the mere mechanics of the strike, it has more to do with how one approaches one's aite for the execution of a strike.

[etherknot]

Wow. This whole thread is running rampant :)

I do agree though with the notion that tsuki should be taught. Wether it is meant to be in the trainee's arsenal or not. If you teach them they'll probably do it better than if they learnt it off the street (you know, from those roaming kendo thugs).

I also agree though on the age restriction. Unless you can demonstrate that you can use it well. I guess. Nothing could be worse than a cocky twelve-year old doing flawed tskui that lands who knows where.

And again, I am still on my position; give and ye shall recieve! :D

[Steve]

Ares2907: Now i agree with you. Tsuki teaches certain concepts on controlling centre. You can't hit men if you don't control centre. If that is what you meant by "your men is only as good as your tsuki" then i agree.

[aru-ma]

kendo thugs? that's a new one on me:)

All things aside I still beleive that you have to know all the kihon waza, yes that includes tsuki, and you cant really say "I dont like doing such-and-such waza therefore I'm not going to do it" (heh heh last time I heard someone said that the person faild a 4th kyu grading).

The reason why I said tsuki is a kihon waza is because it's what it is, a basic waza, from there you can expand the waza eg. tsuki-men, kote-tsuki, etc. Since I started wearing bogu my favorite past time includes mixing and matching the different kinds of waza I know and see if it works in jigeiko (A theory doesnt mean jack if you cant apply it).

[mashu19]

One question if you don't use tsuki until your over 3rd dan how are you going to become competant at it.......after all practice makes perfect and surley even practicing tsuki with a partner can be dangerous. But is that not kendo, there are risks in every sport right, practitioner are aware that if your hitting someone with bamboo theres a chance you might get hurt. We are told not to do tsuki on anyone under 2nd dan and that kyu grades should never attempt it. I think dojo's should practice tsuki more with lower dan to ensure their competance in this technique.

i agree, you gotta start somewhere...

[Manuka]

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.
Sensei set up a Men on a dummy. Drew a line on the floor for ma-ai and had us all try it, from the line (and try it, and try it .....)
Kissaki remains still, body and arms thrust forward.

1. a good practice for tsuki.
2. a very clear demonstration of how unlikely to succeed for most of the dojo.
3. In jikeiko the dummy would both move, and strike back, if you cannot hit it stationary what chance when active.

I have received tsuki during jikeiko from a couple of the seniors (3+ dan).
A nice clear lesson that I was attacking without control of center.
'bonk' well that didn't work as I had hoped. This has taught me to protect center much better and the result is that there has only been 1 tsuki attempt in the last few months - and it failed.

I am a loooooong way from trying to include tsuki in my jikeiko yet.

[LarsCW]

When I was just in bogu van Hattum sensei let me join in an exersize which also did tsuki in it.

Because I was just in bogu he simplified it for me and let me only to the tsuki instead of the tsuki men the others were doing.

Because of the things I have been reading on the forum I was worried I might injure my sempai yet I didn't and hit where it should all the time because I did the exersize nice and slow just like my sempai told me.

You got to start somewhere.

Just because tsuki is practised so little there isn't much skill in it.

Even when doing jigeiko with one of my sensei they sometimes tsuki me just so I can get used to feeling this.

Them being 5th and 6th dan miss too, something that haven't happend luckily.

I really would like to practise tsuki some more so I could get better at it and would feel more confident at it. I think that it still would require special moments during shiai to use it.

[The great I AM]

i agree, you gotta start somewhere...But not on a thread that is approaching its 4th birthday....

[Hisham]

I guess some guys, mostly new members don't have the reflex of checking the dates.

[hermez]

hi, i'm a newbie in kendo (started learning few weeks ago), the tsuki sounds really scary....may i know how i can block it?

[Makigai]

hi, i'm a newbie in kendo (started learning few weeks ago), the tsuki sounds really scary....may i know how i can block it?

Don't worry about tsuki or blocking. Your not even in bogu yet.