Dok-Doh

[ISSAC RU]

haha..the dok doh conflict is getting worse by the second..It is going to burn american's backyard off....

[Kaoru]

haha..the dok doh conflict is getting worse by the second..It is going to burn american's backyard off....


The what?? *clueless* >_< Am I supposed to know about that? I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. How come you know about it and I don't? No fair!

Kaoru

[ISSAC RU]

This is why CNN doesn't help....

basic story goes like this :

there is a piny little island , south koreans have the full control over it . They call it dok doh , but at the same time Japanese claim it as their part of territory..which they call it chu-doh...blah..blah..blah..
(extrem nationalism V.S. nationalism )

Americans want to Japanese and the South Koreans to cooperated , but they just don't...which screw up their Northeast Asian Plan..

[drizzt]

oh great another fight to contend with......"prays for us to let them settle it peacefully"

[ISSAC RU]

Actually I quite concerned about Japanese foreign policy in the late few months.
Strong policy against China and Korea might isolated Japan from the rest of North-east Asia.

Dok-Doh thing might slow Japan down a little bit from her evil plan of joining the big 5 during the New UN re-consitution.

[mingshi]

Before taking your step on global politics, let's learn how to spell and pronounce geographical locations in proper English. On my first read I thought it was about some new Bogu invention...

That's Tokto/Dokdo in Korean and Takeshima in Japanese. :smoker:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4361343.stm

Meanwhile, China still got arms embargo. Another 234,483,942 people saved.

[ISSAC RU]

I believe in this year summer The arms embargo will be abolished by EU.

[AkuSokuZan]

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHh Why are we talking politics on a kendo related forum?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[DanDan]

독도는 우리땅! 우리땅!

it's from a song heheh

[Stpk4]

타케시마 끄저
takeshima does not exist, it is dok doh! : D get out of my house!

[Anjin-san]

From the title I thought you were making up new nidan waza...

[drizzt]

^^ thats what i wondered at first to......

i have a plan.....from now on all wars must be resolved by chess games......star wars chess at that.... Pick your countrys best nerds and let them have at it to settle disputes !!!!!!!!!!


sorry im in a sarcastic mood....

[Berugijin]

타케시마 끄저
takeshima does not exist, it is dok doh! : D get out of my house!

Korea does not exist, it is 朝鮮 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen) (Chosen)! :D get out of their land!

[ISSAC RU]

Korea does not exist, it is 朝鮮 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen) (Chosen)! :D get out of their land!

That burns....~!~......

[kendo-boi]

I believe in this year summer The arms embargo will be abolished by EU.

That's nice to know!:)

[eXact]

whats nice to know is how does this 16 year old talk about politics like my great uncle, blah blah blah blah dok-doh!?!?!?!?!

[KhawMengLee]

That's nice to know!:)

No biggie...more weapons in China's hands? So what? China's considered a evil nation but it hasn't invaded anyone so far in the last decade. The US is a democrasy and it went to war on a lie.

Go Figure.

[Akai Bushi]

What is each side's claim to having that island?
Historically speaking.

[samurai999]

China's considered a evil nation but it hasn't invaded anyone so far in the last decade.
Go Figure.

China considered evil? Are you referring to the "Axis of Evil" speech? If so, I don't think Chinas on that list.

Tim

[h2o]

I think he is referring to the frosty relationship China has had with large parts of the western world the last decades. Since it is a "communist" regime, it should also automagically end up on any US not-our-friends-list.

[kendo-boi]

No biggie...more weapons in China's hands? So what? China's considered a evil nation but it hasn't invaded anyone so far in the last decade. The US is a democrasy and it went to war on a lie.


Go Figure.

I dont think China is evil and if it is put on the list as a evil nation i would be pissed!....dont want a war going on!:rolleyes:

[Akai Bushi]

Why does S. Korea have rights to the island?

[Nazo]

http://www.koreaemb.org/archive/2005/4_1/foreign/foreign8.asp

http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=1869

http://old.dokdo.go.kr/english/html/territory/info_district.html

have a look at some links for information about dokdo.

[ikumdo]

That burns....~!~......

yeah i agree that does burn.

bit rude and out order i would say.

[Berugijin]

http://www.koreaemb.org/archive/2005/4_1/foreign/foreign8.asp

http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=1869

http://old.dokdo.go.kr/english/html/territory/info_district.html

have a look at some links for information about dokdo.

Hmmm... Nice objective information you have there. Korean embassy, Seoul newspaper, very objective indeed.

[Berugijin]

yeah i agree that does burn.

bit rude and out order i would say.

I agree, but when you say something shocking it will last a lot longer and hopefully have a remaining impression.

I just simply tried to get my point across that territorial disputes are stupid. Korea is obviously not going to hand the island over so Japan should either stop nagging or invade.

What if the Italians laid claim to France? After all it was once conquered by Iulius Caesar.

[Akai Bushi]

I agree whoever has it has it.

Whoever takes it has it.

Isn't that how the world has always worked.

It's Korea's.

[Akai Bushi]

I really have no consern with who got there first and firmly believe that whoever controls it has it, but since a number of Pro Korean arguements have been posted I thought it would be good to put up the Japan arguement as well just for balance to the forum.
http://www.pref.shimane.jp/section/takesima/eng/top.html

http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/position.html

[ikumdo]

I really have no consern with who got there first and firmly believe that whoever controls it has it, but since a number of Pro Korean arguements have been posted I thought it would be good to put up the Japan arguement as well just for balance to the forum.
http://www.pref.shimane.jp/section/takesima/eng/top.html

http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/position.html

i respect that.

[KhawMengLee]

Sigh...why don't they get a Korean Super Kumdo team vs. Japanese Super Kendo team shiai going down over the island. Winner takes all!

Either that or they get the Japanese PM and The Korean Prez to kick each other in the nuts at the same time. Winner is the guy left standing or, if both opponents are down, the one who can sing a Barry White song without sounding like Michael Jackson.

[Nazo]

Hmmm... Nice objective information you have there. Korean embassy, Seoul newspaper, very objective indeed.

ok then how about http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/index.html

okok so maybe those links were favoring the korean side, but I still say the island is still korean, even if you give it another name like liancourt or takeshima doesnt change the fact its dokdo and korean.

[Akai Bushi]

What does everyone think about Senkaku or the Kuril Islands?

[Yaiba]

Sigh...why don't they get a Korean Super Kumdo team vs. Japanese Super Kendo team shiai going down over the island. Winner takes all!

Either that or they get the Japanese PM and The Korean Prez to kick each other in the nuts at the same time. Winner is the guy left standing or, if both opponents are down, the one who can sing a Barry White song without sounding like Michael Jackson.

Hahaha... if only it was that simple for resolving all disputes then that would be great. Although, how would you choose the shimpans (judges)? Could you ever find a group of shimpans that were completely neutral? Hmmm... :confused:

[Yaiba]

What does everyone think about Senkaku or the Kuril Islands?

As I understand it, the dispute over the Senkaku (or Kuril) Islands between Japan and Russia is not as "grey" as the dispute that we're seeing over Dokdo/Takeshima between Korea and Japan. To my knowledge, Senkaku was first inhabited by the Japanese and there are presently many "Japanese" that still reside there. The Russians occupied those islands in the closing days of WW2 and claimed them for itself in the San Francisco treaty (I think... please correct me if I'm wrong). Dokdo/Takeshima on the other hand is uninhabited so its become more of a historical argument as to who claimed it in the first place. All I know is that there is like a Korean weather station outpost there. Frankly, both countries are interested in the surrounding waters for fishing purposes rather than the islands itself, I think.

[ikumdo]

Sigh...why don't they get a Korean Super Kumdo team vs. Japanese Super Kendo team shiai going down over the island. Winner takes all!

Either that or they get the Japanese PM and The Korean Prez to kick each other in the nuts at the same time. Winner is the guy left standing or, if both opponents are down, the one who can sing a Barry White song without sounding like Michael Jackson.


what's the deal with u and kicking men in the groin?

disclaimer: please do not attempt in real life as permanent damage can be caused followed by sever embarresment.

[ikumdo]

Hahaha... if only it was that simple for resolving all disputes then that would be great. Although, how would you choose the shimpans (judges)? Could you ever find a group of shimpans that were completely neutral? Hmmm... :confused:

yeah that's a good question?

asnwer is no, have u ever seen any of the world championships?


ooohhhhh.........cringe, struck a nerve. sorry.

[KhawMengLee]

what's the deal with u and kicking men in the groin?

disclaimer: please do not attempt in real life as permanent damage can be caused followed by sever embarresment.

When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will definately agree to follow;)

[ikumdo]

When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will definately agree to follow;)

wow that's so scary.

i take it that u r female.

women absolutely don't understand the ramifications of aggresing the male genitalia.


please repent and turn from ur evil was.

[Akai Bushi]

Senkaku and Kuril Islands are different.

Senkaku is disputed between China and Japan.

Kuril Islands disputed between Japan and Russia.

[Yaiba]

Senkaku and Kuril Islands are different.

Senkaku is disputed between China and Japan.

Kuril Islands disputed between Japan and Russia.

Crap... sorry, my mistake. I wasn't thinking clearly... *sigh* :surprise:

I got Senkaku mixed up with "Chishima-rettou", which is the Japanese name for the Kuril Islands. "Karafuto", which is the name for Sakhalin, is another larger island north of Japan that has apparently been disputed with Russia for the past 150 years but I don't think the Japanese government is seeking this territory - just the Kuril Islands that belonged to Japan before WW2.

As for Senkaku (or "Diaoyu") Islands, this is similar to the case of Dokdo/Takeshima because it is uninhabited by either the Japanese or Chinese. Apparently there are vast oil reserves in this area that both countries would like to get their hands on. Again, this is similar to Korea and Japan wanting to claim Dokdo/Takeshima for itself to gain exclusive waterway-rights for fishing purposes.

[Berugijin]

but I still say the island is still korean, even if you give it another name like liancourt or takeshima doesnt change the fact its dokdo and korean.

Oh ok then that settles it. I'll just call Koizumi (who is on my speed dial) and tell him that Nazo (who has a PhD political sciences, geography and history) simply states that Takeshima is Korean. We don't need stupid things like facts right?

[KhawMengLee]

wow that's so scary.

i take it that u r female.

women absolutely don't understand the ramifications of aggresing the male genitalia.


please repent and turn from ur evil was.


er...no, not a women...its an age old church motto:


CUIUS TESTICULOS HABES, HABEAS CARDIA ET CEREBELLUM

[Berugijin]

CUIUS TESTICULOS HABES, HABEAS CARDIA ET CEREBELLUM

Those who have testicles have a heart and a brain.

...et non usus :-) (probably faulty grammer)

[NorthernKendoka]

Today one of the korean students was drawing a map of Korea for a presentation, I noticed it included Dokdo. The Dokdo/Takeshima discussion could have made my day, but the class just continued like notthing had happened.

[KevinF]

My God, Issac,

you obviously learned your history from a Chinese cereal box! This post combined with the Tibet and Taiwan post is really over the top.

It's no wonder the Japanese Foreign Minister called the Chinese "scary."

I'm even more amused by your followup posting against strong Japanese foreign policy - which by the way, is largely a result of the Japanese government and poeple getting tired of hearing c**p from China and Korea about WWII. I guess 18 official apologies are not enough. I guess the billions of yen that pour in China from Japanese companies and subsidy/loan support are not enough.

The reality of the situation is a geopoliticla one. China wants to assert itself as the undisputed leader in Asia. Japan is in the way. So China has reheated the textbook issue and the vists by the Japanese PM to Yasukuni jinja in order to stave off Japan's bid for a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council. The Chinese governemnt didn't apologize for the recent riots and protests in China which resulted in injuries to two Japanese students and the looting of Japanese business. Futher, China hasn't apologized for recent incursions into Japanese territorial waters yb the Chinese navy (submarine incident last year). With Chinese funding for military programs skyrocketing and the government in Beijing all but encouraging anti-Japanese sentiment, I completly sympathize with the Japanese. I hope they get balls and eliminate the clause in their constitution which prevents a standing army and I further hpe they stand up to the bullys of Asia (China and North Korea).

With regard to the islands (there is a disputed one vis-a-vis China and another with Korea) in specific, I would love to see Japanese troops occupy the island and give both China and Korea the finger.

[rainmaker]

Kevin-san,

I was rather disappointed at your personal opinion, especially, your attitude toward to Korean and Chinese. I guess you are taking Japan side since your girlfriend is from Japan and you have been living in Japan. I guess you don't really know what is going on behind and wrote such hatred attitude toward Korean and Chinese. You are educated man. I don't think it is smart to hear one side story and make a decision. I don't think you have never been thought from Korean or Chinses point of view. I would really suggest you to learn all the fact before you decide what is wrong and right.

Best Regards.



My God, Issac,

you obviously learned your history from a Chinese cereal box! This post combined with the Tibet and Taiwan post is really over the top.

It's no wonder the Japanese Foreign Minister called the Chinese "scary."

I'm even more amused by your followup posting against strong Japanese foreign policy - which by the way, is largely a result of the Japanese government and poeple getting tired of hearing c**p from China and Korea about WWII. I guess 18 official apologies are not enough. I guess the billions of yen that pour in China from Japanese companies and subsidy/loan support are not enough.

The reality of the situation is a geopoliticla one. China wants to assert itself as the undisputed leader in Asia. Japan is in the way. So China has reheated the textbook issue and the vists by the Japanese PM to Yasukuni jinja in order to stave off Japan's bid for a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council. The Chinese governemnt didn't apologize for the recent riots and protests in China which resulted in injuries to two Japanese students and the looting of Japanese business. Futher, China hasn't apologized for recent incursions into Japanese territorial waters yb the Chinese navy (submarine incident last year). With Chinese funding for military programs skyrocketing and the government in Beijing all but encouraging anti-Japanese sentiment, I completly sympathize with the Japanese. I hope they get balls and eliminate the clause in their constitution which prevents a standing army and I further hpe they stand up to the bullys of Asia (China and North Korea).

With regard to the islands (there is a disputed one vis-a-vis China and another with Korea) in specific, I would love to see Japanese troops occupy the island and give both China and Korea the finger.

[KevinF]

No Rainmaker,

I don't have a side save the side of fairness. Yes, I have lived in Japan, and yes, my gf is Japanese, but this in no way shaped my answer. I can look Japanese people in the eye and explain how I firmly stand behind the use of atomic weapons in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I am harsh in my cirticism of unfiar trade practices by any nation.

My statements should not be read as "hatred" against China or Korea.

Looking at the situation objectively, which is what I try to do, I do see China twisting history to position themselves against Japan in the Asia of the next 20 years. China complains about Japanese textbooks and is unwilling to print the truth in their own. As there is no free press in China, and as all textbooks are printed by the state, current anti-Japanese sentiment is plainly a result of a long, well-planned campaign against Japan. The political ramifications are clear and China can only gain from any anti-Japanese sentiment. It seems interesting that the largest anti-Japanese riots ever in China came just as Japan is pushing with Germany for a reorganization of the U.N. Security Council and a permanent seat within.

I would love to see a more powerful Japan - not for the sake of it, but as a hedge against Chinese expansionism and Asian dominance. This is in the interests of world stability. I would hope that most could see the value of having a powerful counterbalance to China in Asia - and the reality is that only Japan has the potential to do it.

[KevinF]

Addendum: I do know the other side. Japan is responsible for numerous and horrendous events in both Korea and China during WWII (60 years ago). China signed away rights to pursue monetary gain or settlements from Japan over 20 years ago, and I wonder if anyone could tally for us the amount of moeny that has poured into China through Japanese support and Japanese companies?

Hey, by the way, when the tsunami hit southern asia, didn't the Japanese government donate the most of any nation save the U.S. (and then, only because the U.S. tsunami relief was a combined government and private charity effort)? Where were the benevolent Chinese and Korean governments? Try reading this article: China Fails the Tsunami Test (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6785287/)

Further, I would consider supporting China in its anti-Japanese stand the moment the PRC revises their textbooks with a fair and balanced view of Mao's "Great Leap Forward" and the Invasion and occupation of Tibet. How many tanks have to roll over students or how many monks have to be thrown into prison before people realize that China is not the peaceful nation of toy-producing elves they would wish you to believe?

I'll side with the Japanese Foreign minister for now: China *is* scary.

[KevinF]

To return the discussion to the issue of the original posting, I find the official position of the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affaris quite interesting:

The Issue of Takeshima (http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/position.html)

The history of Takeshima/Dokdoh from the Korean perspective is here:

Dokdo: A Profile (http://www.korea.net/News/Issues/issueDetailView.asp?board_no=5727)

The liberal Asahi-Shimbun has a fairly balanced view of things:

History Lesson: Heart of the Matter (http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200504060187.html)

Read the above and make up your own minds. :wink:

[rainmaker]

Kevin, it has been my experience that American people who have lived in Japan does not learn about Asia but they just learn only about Japan. I call this Japanized. I have often seen them they criticizing other Asian countries or even worse they looking down on Chinese and Japanese more than Japanese themselves. Anyway, it is your decision to take which side you will be.

But Let me tell you why you are not being objective, Kevin.

My statements should not be read as "hatred" against China or Korea.
=> You wrote "With regard to the islands (there is a disputed one vis-a-vis China and another with Korea) in specific, I would love to see Japanese troops occupy the island and give both China and Korea the finger."
-> To me and other Korean and Chinese, this is hatred comment.

Looking at the situation objectively, which is what I try to do, I do see China twisting history to position themselves against Japan in the Asia of the next 20 years.
=> Read this. Both China and Korea is not twisting fact. It is Japanese government who is twisting international history. You are not being objective again.
http://www.ericdigests.org/2003-1/japan.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1319495.stm

I would love to see a more powerful Japan - not for the sake of it, but as a hedge against Chinese expansionism and Asian dominance.
=> I strongly disagree with this. History repeats often. Why do other Asian countries and Americans have to rely on Japan as hedging against China ? Why do we need two bullies instead of one ?

I do know the other side. Japan is responsible for numerous and horrendous events in both Korea and China during WWII (60 years ago).
=> Yes, you do know but you didn't experience the pain. For you, 60 years can be long but for some of our grandfather and grandmother, 60 years is very short. If your parents were beheaded or raped by Japanese soldier 60 years ago, can you forget about it? Would you appreciate that if I tell you to forget about it and move on ? Also, we still see some old ladies who were forced to go to war and become a sex slave. Read this article.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/FR/9903.htm

China signed away rights to pursue monetary gain or settlements from Japan over 20 years ago, and I wonder if anyone could tally for us the amount of moeny that has poured into China through Japanese support and Japanese companies?
=> Korean and Chinese government does not want only apologies or monetary gain but they want Japanese government to act. Everytime, we are about to forget about war and move on, Japanese government always bring back other issues like textbook and Dokto.

Read the above and make up your own minds.
=> I have read such discussion since when I was 12 years old and I have made up my mind. I just hope you too take read both side and look at their history before you make up your mind. I don't think you have listened both side yet.

Finally, yes, I am Korean and I love my country. Question is do I hate Japanese ? No. I love people and culture of Japan. I used to travel to Japan every month for two years and have made many friends. I love my Japanese Kendo sensei, sempai and friends. I just don't agree with Japanese government policy toward Asian nation.
.

[rainmaker]

If you want to know what happened during Japanese invasion to Korea, you can click this link.

Warning !! This is very cruel photos and I do not recommend underage & pregnent people to click this link.

http://nojum.com/japan/japan.html

[KevinF]

Rainmaker,

Kudos for a well-thought and good effort. I enjoy this.

First of all, I already admited the Japanese Imperial army did horrible things. For this, the Japanese people and government were punished with invasion, bombings, and a "regime change" in 1945 that included the only use of atmoic weapons on a population. Do you think it would be fair for U.S. leaders in 2050 to demand apologies and reparations from Afghanistan because of the 9/11 terrorist attacks?

Let me add to this by saying horrible things were done by both the allies and the axis powers during the second world war. While I defend the use of atomic weapons by the U.S. as a logical course of action which may have saved many lives at the expense of others, I deplore the firebombing of Dresden and the virtual apathy of the U.S. and its allies with regard to Germany's Final Solution. Furthermore, as the son of immigrants, I recall listening to stories of the horrendous treatment by the Russian army in the Czech Republic - random shootings, tossing babies out of windows, raping of women, etc.

You say that 60 years is very short. I say that nations should look to the current and future situation rather than live in the past. Shold nations take your view of things, there would never be peace.

As Koren troops are currently illegally occupying Takeshima, it would be a horrible incident to actually see Japanese troops land on the island, however, I sympathize with Japan in the current power struggle in Asia. My advocating Japenese posession by menas of troops is not a comment of hatred. If you assume this, then Korean occupation of the islands by means of force would also be a statement of hatred? Well, my friend, this is sadly the status quo.

Both China and Korea are not twisting facts? Excuse me? Listen, I have seen the textbooks in question as I was there from 1999 to 2002. First of all, the textbooks are used in less than 1% of all junior high schools in Japan. Secondly, the passages are questionable. My answer to this is, and always will be: any fair comparison of textbooks from all three nations would find that Chinese textboooks are state-sponsered communist propaganda and that Korean textbooks twist the truth regarding the current issues in Noth Korea to appease the North. Japanese textbooks are largely very good, and if anything, promote a feeling that all war is bad, leading the current generation of Japanese people to be generally very pacifist.

I guess your position is that a strong bully in China is better than having two equally powerful naitons in Asia (Japan and China)? Rainmaker, that makes no sense. China holds its close ties with North Korea over the South, and will always have this as a bargaining chip, so I don't think anyone can see South Korea being the counterweight to China in Asia. It they could do it, I would advocate that just as soon as I would advocate Japan. You see, any sane person would see China with its natural resources, enormous army and vast population as a *threat*. You apparently see China as a benevolent great uncle.

You siad: "Korean and Chinese government does not want only apologies or monetary gain but they want Japanese government to act."

Eh? Act in what way? If not by apologizing or by giving money, that what would you like them to do? I mean, we are talking about a nation that only has a self-defense force, right? A nation that by its constitution, cannot take military action? I wish China and Korea would have something like that in thier constitutions..... As it is, China can't keep from using their military to threaten Taiwan.

Rainmaker, you accuse me of bais because I lived in Japan etc., yet argue that you hold the truth. Then you go on to say that you are Korean and you love your country.... Hey, just to let you know, I was a foreigner in Japan..... who is biased again?

By the way, I'll just toss this in for fun. My father spent two years protecting South Korea from North Korea while stationed there in the 1980s. He had only nice things to say about Korea and its people. We have discussed the issue plenty, and even he (who has never been to Japan) has indicated that the Korean hatred for Japan, especially amongst the younger generation who had no direct knowledge of the events, is extreme and promoted by the Korean government (which was also my argument for China). I think Korea should only be allowed to speak to issues of aggression and war once they become a complete nation, or at least the North stops testing rockets shot illegally over other nations.

[samurai999]

Rainmaker,


Let me add to this by saying horrible things were done by both the allies and the axis powers during the second world war.

People really have to understand exactly this statement. Atrocities aren't just limited to one country. EVERY country is guilty of something in the past. It is these politicians that really don't want to admit it and force the agenda on other countries to apologize. Its not that the atrocities committed were bad, its just that every country has to fess up to them.


TIm

[KevinF]

Tim,

would 18 times be enough?

[JSchmidt]

Ah yes..the wonderfully free & democratic China:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4617657.stm

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/chn-180505-action-eng

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA170182005?open&of=ENG-CHN

[samurai999]

Tim,

would 18 times be enough?


whoops, mistyped. What i meant is "not that the atrocities committed WEREN'T bad"...

But from the level of schoolbook and media coverage I have seen, each atrocity is horrible within itself. EACH ONE IS JUST AS BAD. Just as intolerable. Just as unacceptable. Thats what i meant.

Tim

[rainmaker]

...................................

[drizzt]

People really have to understand exactly this statement. Atrocities aren't just limited to one country. EVERY country is guilty of something in the past. It is these politicians that really don't want to admit it and force the agenda on other countries to apologize. Its not that the atrocities committed weren't bad, its just that every country has to fess up to them.


TIm

Nicely put. when they happen, most "atrocities" are not even viewed as bad

I saw something earlier, and beleive it to be a valid point. Why does the media only show the bad things a country does. have we sunk that low as to only enjoy bad?you never see a story about the acts of kindness soldiers are doing in Iraq. UN peace keepers, or red cross vollunteers go into african country's and risk there lives everyday to bring food and aid to starving people. Yet our lovely liberal news media seems content only to cover trash like the michael jackson trial. There greatest joy in life is to talk about the EVIL US government, or for that matter the evil governments of the world...............

why have we sunk this low? is it only the US media thats gotten this bad or is it a global problem?


sorry for striking out on an aside to the main topic, but i think the general philisophical point fits in well here. Maybe i should revive the political debate thread on this subject..........

[rainmaker]

Kevin-san,

First of all, I already admited the Japanese Imperial army did horrible things. For this, the Japanese people and government were punished with invasion, bombings, and a "regime change" in 1945 that included the only use of atmoic weapons on a population. Do you think it would be fair for U.S. leaders in 2050 to demand apologies and reparations from Afghanistan because of the 9/11 terrorist attacks?
=> If Afghanistan change the textbook and educate their childen that it was act of world freedom, yes, US should demand apologies… If they claim Hawaii is part of Afghanistan, yes. If they claim they raped American woman in order to boost soldiers morale, yes...


Let me add to this by saying horrible things were done by both the allies and the axis powers during the second world war. While I defend the use of atomic weapons by the U.S. as a logical course of action which may have saved many lives at the expense of others, I deplore the firebombing of Dresden and the virtual apathy of the U.S. and its allies with regard to Germany's Final Solution. Furthermore, as the son of immigrants, I recall listening to stories of the horrendous treatment by the Russian army in the Czech Republic - random shootings, tossing babies out of windows, raping of women, etc.
=> I am not talking about US or other region. I cannot talk behalf of Czech since I don't even know their history.


You say that 60 years is very short. I say that nations should look to the current and future situation rather than live in the past. Shold nations take your view of things, there would never be peace.
=> If you don't fix the problem and rather trying to hide the problem, how our relationship will improve ? You may say when can you forgive Japan, but all I can say it will take long time to heal such wounds. History itself repeat. Japan invades Korean numerous times through the history. That is why we cannot just forget the past and move on.

As Koren troops are currently illegally occupying Takeshima, it would be a horrible incident to actually see Japanese troops land on the island, however, I sympathize with Japan in the current power struggle in Asia.
=> You are assuming Tokdo is Japanse island and therefore Korean troop is illegally occyupying it. Let me tell you my point. It is Korean land and we are protecting our land from Japan.

My advocating Japenese posession by menas of troops is not a comment of hatred. If you assume this, then Korean occupation of the islands by means of force would also be a statement of hatred? Well, my friend, this is sadly the status quo.
=> I have learned since elementary schools that giving finger is symbol of hatred. Especially when you are ignorant. Korean occupation is not a statement of hatred, it is statement of protecting Korean land.


First of all, the textbooks are used in less than 1% of all junior high schools in Japan.
=> Even 1%, it is wrong.

Secondly, the passages are questionable. My answer to this is, and always will be: any fair comparison of textbooks from all three nations would find that Chinese textboooks are state-sponsered communist propaganda and that Korean textbooks twist the truth regarding the current issues in Noth Korea to appease the North.
=> Yes, we might have changed our domestic history but we never twisted fact about other international history.

Japanese textbooks are largely very good, and if anything, promote a feeling that all war is bad, leading the current generation of Japanese people to be generally very pacifist.
=> You must learned with 99% text book. But then again, I don't assume you read all 99% text book.


I guess your position is that a strong bully in China is better than having two equally powerful naitons in Asia (Japan and China)? Rainmaker, that makes no sense. China holds its close ties with North Korea over the South, and will always have this as a bargaining chip, so I don't think anyone can see South Korea being the counterweight to China in Asia. It they could do it, I would advocate that just as soon as I would advocate Japan. You see, any sane person would see China with its natural resources, enormous army and vast population as a *threat*. You apparently see China as a benevolent great uncle.
=> You are assuming that China and S. Korea ties are not strong. Maybe. But let's not forget that South Korean and China's trade is about $6.3B and 50% of total Korean investment is send to China last year. North Korea and China ? About $1B/year. Can you still say China holds its close ties with North Korea ???


You siad: "Korean and Chinese government does not want only apologies or monetary gain but they want Japanese government to act."
Eh? Act in what way? If not by apologizing or by giving money, that what would you like them to do? I mean, we are talking about a nation that only has a self-defense force, right? A nation that by its constitution, cannot take military action? I wish China and Korea would have something like that in thier constitutions..... As it is, China can't keep from using their military to threaten Taiwan.
=> Yes, they verbally apologize 18 times. But they still refuse to fix the problem. Such as textbook, comfort woman, Bio weapon testing on human, Tokdo.. Do you think it is real apologies ???

Rainmaker, you accuse me of bais because I lived in Japan etc., yet argue that you hold the truth. Then you go on to say that you are Korean and you love your country.... Hey, just to let you know, I was a foreigner in Japan..... who is biased again?
=> True, because of I am Korean, I can be very bised. But you don’t know the all the fact and still taking Japanese side. I call that biased.


By the way, I'll just toss this in for fun. My father spent two years protecting South Korea from North Korea while stationed there in the 1980s. He had only nice things to say about Korea and its people. We have discussed the issue plenty, and even he (who has never been to Japan) has indicated that the Korean hatred for Japan, especially amongst the younger generation who had no direct knowledge of the events, is extreme and promoted by the Korean government (which was also my argument for China).

=> See ? Koreans still cannot get over Japanese invastion. Is it Korean's fault ? It is not only Korean government saying Japanese were bad but we also heard very often how Japanse soldiers killed our grandfather and grandmother for 36 years. Again, have you ever heard from those Korean people about how they have treated ? If you didn't, you just don't know.

I think Korea should only be allowed to speak to issues of aggression and war once they become a complete nation, or at least the North stops testing rockets shot illegally over other nations.[/QUOTE]

Is this means we are not allowed speak the issue of aggression and war ?? What kind of theory is that ? Read what you wrote and try to understand. Is it your theory that once North Korea stops rocket shots, Japanese can speak to South Korea about Textbook, Tokdo, comfort woman and others ???

Yes, I even myself, used to hate Japanse when I was teenagers. I grow up since then. I try to appreciate both side. I tried to learn Japanese culture and people. I have found beauty in it too. However, let's not be confused. That doesn't mean I agree with their foreign policy. Some Koreans telling me that I love Japan culture too much. I have always tell them that it has broaden my view of people. It is not people that is cruel. It is their ignorance that harms others...

[KevinF]

Rainmaker:

from Dictionary.com: Bias = 1. A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment. 2. An unfair act or policy stemming from prejudice.

In your last two posts, you have admitted your pro-Korea bias based on your education, cultural background and national pride. I side with Japan regarding general issues such as constitutional reform to allow a standing army, increased responsibility in the world such as a permanent seat on the UNSec Council, etc. I grew up here in the US and in Europe, and have no such cultural baggage, and I was in the very environment you cirticize, allowing me, as an outsider, to gain a broader perspective of the issues. I insist my stands are not biased in favor of Japan in the sense of the definitions listed above, but you have made a good argument for your opinions being prejudiced.

You wrote: => If you don't fix the problem and rather trying to hide the problem, how our relationship will improve ? You may say when can you forgive Japan, but all I can say it will take long time to heal such wounds. History itself repeat. Japan invades Korean numerous times through the history. That is why we cannot just forget the past and move on.

Rainmaker, there is a point of diminishing returns. There is a point when the Prime Ministers of Japan will say, "hey, look, we don't want to hear about this anymore." The Japanese people will support this because they will be fed up as well. By the way, this is already happening. Japan has been a peaceful nation for the past 60 years. This is more than Korea can say, as the two Koreas have not even signed a peace treaty and their nation is fractured in two. Officially, only a "Cease Fire" is in effect in the Koreas. Almost every year, there is some violent incident in the waters off of Korea with North and South Korean ships firing on each other.

Seen obvectively, in comparison to the violence in Korea, Japan has been a totally innocent force in the world for the past 60 years....

You wrote: "I have learned since elementary schools that giving finger is symbol of hatred. Especially when you are ignorant. Korean occupation is not a statement of hatred, it is statement of protecting Korean land."

Giving the finger is a statement of defiance and annoyance, not particularly of hatred.

Regarding the textbooks in specific, you seem to argue now that if its an internal matter, its okay for a nations' textbooks to be full of lies. Its only not okay if the lies in question are about other nations.... hmmm... let me think about this.... no indians were killed in the US policy of Manifest Destiny. Wait, even better yet, lets let Germany not mention the Holocaust becasue its an "internal" matter, right? Is that really your position?

I'm just asking to be fair. Most Jpaanese textbooks are generally fair about history, both national and international, in comparision to the treatment on the Korean war and the Korean division in Korean textbooks and 100x more fair in comparision to Chinese textbooks in their discussion about just about anything (assuming you can measure fairness in numerical quantities).

By the way, yes, of all nations in the world, North Korea has closeest ties with China. This has created problems for China when North Koreans flee into China and then attempt to make it to South Korea, sually by slipping into the embassy of some sympathetic nation. Further, South Korean and Chinese economic ties are strong, but the political ones are somewhat weak. My position on this is to say that the Koreas are in no position to bargiain with China, or to assume a more dominant role in Asia. Korea really can't because of the afore mentioned unresolved war, so that really only leaves Japan as a hedge against unchecked Chinese aggression.

You got my theory wrong at the bottom of your post. I said that Korea should only talk to Japan about violence and aggression after they finish or resolve their own war. Until Korea is reunited and peaceful for 60 years, I don't really think they should be in any position to dictate anything to anyone...

By the way, in your last paragraph, you kind of take a stab at showing how you are actually fair regarding Japan, because you enjoy some Japanese culture. In so doing, you mention that your Korean friends berate you for it. This shows me that (assuming your friends are representative of average Koreans), many - if not most - Koreans harbor hatred for modern Japan. It's kind of sad when a country hates another for the sins of generations past.

[samurai999]

Actually, i posted something a while back in another thread something to the lines of this...

My parents are of Japanese ancestry, but from grossly different backgrounds. My dads side came to America pre-1900s, started life in Southern California and my grandfather fought in the great war ON THE US side as a translator. My moms side came from Japan. All from Japan. But her family wasn't involved in the war, they were all scholars and intellectuals.(though sometimes I think the trait hasn't passed on to me. LOL :D)

What angers me is all of these PACs in california asking for Japanese reparations. Not just apologies mind you or changes in textbooks, but billions of dollars in reparations. There was an Asian-American activist group (including Japanese_americans) who were protesting in front of the Japanese embassy in SF for those reparations. This affects me, an american citizen (and had ancestors) who had nothing to do with the atrocities committed in China and korea. How? My mom is still a citizen of Japan with permanent resident status in the US. Say if Japan agreed to pay reparations in the billions, my mom has to pay for it since she is a Japanese citizen. How ridiculous is that? And most likely since she is retiring soon, I will have to pay for it. Even though I or my family lineage had NOTHING to do with any of the comfort women, the rape of nanking, the Bataan death marches, the biological experiments, etc... it seems to me that all the anger, the frustration, and calls for apolgies aren't good enough without money and that is what is not agreeing with me..

Tim

[rainmaker]

Rainmaker, there is a point of diminishing returns. There is a point when the Prime Ministers of Japan will say, "hey, look, we don't want to hear about this anymore." The Japanese people will support this because they will be fed up as well.
=> As I said, you and Japanese governement think it is more than enough. Chinese and Korean obviously think it is not enough. Again, they are trying not to solve the problem but rather walk away. Koreans and Chinese are also fed up with Japanese government reaction. Who can dare to say enough is enough. Definitely not you, Kevin, not PM.

This is more than Korea can say, as the two Koreas have not even signed a peace treaty and their nation is fractured in two. Officially, only a "Cease Fire" is in effect in the Koreas. Almost every year, there is some violent incident in the waters off of Korea with North and South Korean ships firing on each other. Seen obvectively, in comparison to the violence in Korea, Japan has been a totally innocent force in the world for the past 60 years....

=> Do you know how Korea is divided into two countries ? Right after Japan invades, it is devided by both US and Soviet. It was all started with Japan in the beginning and ideologies caused by western counties.

Giving the finger is a statement of defiance and annoyance, not particularly of hatred.
=> Defiance and annoyance can cause or coming from hatred. Kevin, you are playing with word...

Regarding the textbooks in specific, you seem to argue now that if its an internal matter, its okay for a nations' textbooks to be full of lies. Its only not okay if the lies in question are about other nations.... hmmm... let me think about this.... no indians were killed in the US policy of Manifest Destiny. Wait, even better yet, lets let Germany not mention the Holocaust becasue its an "internal" matter, right? Is that really your position?
=> It seems like you don't really know the history of this either. Our old history book claimed that North Korea as vicious enemy. As south Korea is trying their best to make peace talk with North Korea, we have toned down such claim. We don't name them as enemy anymore. We just say it is tragedy that same nationality divided into two ideology. Again, I don't consider this as twisting our history. Just like US don't call Russia and China as enemy, we don't call North Korea as enemy. Again, this is got nothing to do with Japanese foregin policy.

I'm just asking to be fair. Most Jpaanese textbooks are generally fair about history, both national and international, in comparision to the treatment on the Korean war and the Korean division in Korean textbooks and 100x more fair in comparision to Chinese textbooks in their discussion about just about anything (assuming you can measure fairness in numerical quantities).
=> Wow, I am just amazed you have time and knowledge to go over all the textbook of Japan, Korea and China in three years of living in Japan. But your statement like this actually make me scared.

By the way, yes, of all nations in the world, North Korea has closeest ties with China. This has created problems for China when North Koreans flee into China and then attempt to make it to South Korea, sually by slipping into the embassy of some sympathetic nation. Further, South Korean and Chinese economic ties are strong, but the political ones are somewhat weak. My position on this is to say that the Koreas are in no position to bargiain with China, or to assume a more dominant role in Asia. Korea really can't because of the afore mentioned unresolved war, so that really only leaves Japan as a hedge against unchecked Chinese aggression.
=> Are you telling me that our country's freedom and safety has to be relied by Japanese ? Hey, Wait a minuite, isn't this what happened 50 years ago ? Isn't this what happened 200 years ago? Why do we want to repeat our history again ?

You got my theory wrong at the bottom of your post. I said that Korea should only talk to Japan about violence and aggression after they finish or resolve their own war. Until Korea is reunited and peaceful for 60 years, I don't really think they should be in any position to dictate anything to anyone...
=> We are not talking about Korean war here. We are talking about Japan and Korean relationship. South Korea has been been in war for last 50 years. You have made your mind that Korean is violent and aggressive people. Because North Korea and South Korea issue, you cannot talk about textbook, comfort woman and other issues ? That is wrong.

By the way, in your last paragraph, you kind of take a stab at showing how you are actually fair regarding Japan, because you enjoy some Japanese culture. In so doing, you mention that your Korean friends berate you for it. This shows me that (assuming your friends are representative of average Koreans), many - if not most - Koreans harbor hatred for modern Japan. It's kind of sad when a country hates another for the sins of generations past.

=> Kevin. Now I understand how you make your conclusion. Because you have chat with me for 3 times, you assume my personal opinion represents all my friends and Korean. You even made a conclusion that " Koreans harbor hatred for modern Japan". Please don't do that. It is called stereo type. Our dicussion is based on my personal opinion and does not reflect all Korean's opinion. I just hope your opinion does not reflect all your friend or US public. Kevin, I just hope your knowledge is not from limited resources.

Again, you have already made up your mind about Korea and China. It is sad that you have not even trying to listen otherside of world. Before you make any conclusion or make recommendation, I really recommend you to read more book about relatioship between Korea and Japan.

[KevinF]

Blaiming the present dissection of Korea on the U.S and Soviet forces at the end of WWII does not effect my position. In fact, to bring this back to the issue at hand, I guess we can blame the Korean occupation of Takeshima on the war as well, and as Korea came out on the side of the victors (much in the same way France was allowed to occupy Germany after 1945), I can just blame the present Korean military and police force in Takeshima on the arbitrary delineation of Japanese boundaries following the surrender in August of 1945. Since there were never any inhabitants of the island until the issue became a political one and an obvious point of national pride for Korea, I can just blame the situation on the war and hope it will be corrected one day (like the division of Korea).

Rainmaker, I understand your position. You want Japan to be humble. You shroud this in the guise of asking that Japan be responsible. I don't doubt that you are actually scared of history repeating itself, and I don't belittle your position. I just think its wrong, and there isn't any logic behind much of what you are saying.

The reality is that Japan has been a responsible nation and a very giving country for the past 60 years. Compare this to the turbulent history of China with its invasion of Tibet, leaps forward and its political turmoil in regard to Taiwan or to the war and division of Korea, and the reality is the Japan is possibly the most peaceful nation in Asia in post-war history.

I understand you blame this whole thing on Japan, but it doesn't change the present. Japan is a responsible, peaceful nation in the eyes of everyone save China and Korea. I honestly believe the both China and Korea manipulate the situation at certain times to instigate and raise tension between the nations. This is called playing politics, and both China and Korea are good at it. In fact, I would argue that China is a grand master at politics.

One of the things that I am frightened about in your responses it that your default is to side with China, a communist nation that has a deploarable history of human rights abuses, and whose people do not have unfettered access to the truth or to even both sides of the story, regardless of which one is the truth. The only thing that China and Korea have in common is the shared hatred of Japan. You know, didn't China occupy Korea for much longer than Japan ever did?

I am far more worried about the possibility of China expanding and asserting itself than any possibility of Japanese nationalism. In many ways, I feel sorry for Japan, because for 60 years, the country has been denied many things other nations are allowed to take for granted. All other nations on Earth are "allowed" to have an army, an anthem and national pride. Korea and China jump at the chance to point fingers and cry about history.

Since you freely admit that your posts are based on your personal opinion, and since mine are as well (although mine are logical, I believe), I see that we will always disagree on this. I can live with that.

And finally, no, I don't assume your position represents that of all Koreans. I just wonder what most Koreans are like if you are a "moderate" in your stand on Japan. I didn't stereotype - I used your words as a representative indication of what most Koreans must think and feel. This was deliberate, and explicit and based on what you said your Korean friends were telling you about liking Japan and Japanese culture too much.

[KevinF]

The following are taken from the FRUS stands for Foreign Relations of the United States, published by the Department of State of the U.S. government. Those books are consist of the collection of top secret documentations and telegrams subsequently released or made public.



from November 14, 1949:

FRUS 1949 volume 7 page898 (http://www.geocities.jp/tanaka_kunitaka/takeshima/frus1949.gif) and900 (http://www.geocities.jp/tanaka_kunitaka/takeshima/frus1949-2.gif)
740.0011 PW(Peace)/11-1449
The Acting Political Adviser in Japan (Sebald) to the Secretary of State
Tokyo, November 14, 1949. SECRET
495. For Butterworth: General MacArther and I have independently given careful study and consideration to the November 2 draft treaty forwarded under cover of your letter November 4, minus chapter 5 reserved for security provisions. General MacArthur submits the following observations: (omit)The following are our preliminary comments concerning those provisions which we consider of high importance:

Article 4: Presumably security provisions will effect eventual determination Taiwan and adjacent islands. Suggest consideration question of trusteeship for Taiwan consequent upon plebiscite.

Article 5, paragraph2: Japan will unquestionably advance strong claim to Etorofu, Kunashiri, Habomai, and Shikotan. Believe United States should support such claim and due allowance made in draft for peculiarities this situation. Consider problem highly important in view questions permanent boundary and fisheries.

Article 6: Recommend reconsideration Liancourt Rocks (Takeshima). Japan`s claim to these islands is old and appears valid.Security Considerations might conceivably envisage weather and radar stations thereon.(omit)


from 1950:



FRUS 1950 volume6 page1327 (http://www.geocities.jp/tanaka_kunitaka/takeshima/frus-undated.gif) and 1328 (http://www.geocities.jp/tanaka_kunitaka/takeshima/frus-undated2.gif)
694.001/10-2650
Undated Memorandum by Mr. Robert A. Fearey of the Office of Northeast Asian Affairs
[Washington] SECRET
Answers to Questions Submitted by the Australian Government Arising Out of the Statement of Principles Regarding Japanese Treaty Prepared by the United States Government

(omit)
It is thought that the island of the Inland Sea, Oki Retto, Sado, Okujiri, Rebun, Rishiri, Tsushima,Takeshima , the Goto Archipelago, the northernmost Ryukyus, and the Izus, all long recognized as Japanese, would be retained by Japan.(omit)


July 19, 1951:



FRUS 1951 volume6 page 1202&1203 (http://www.geocities.jp/tanaka_kunitaka/takeshima/frus1951.gif)
Memorandum of Conversation, by the Officer in Change of Korean Affairs in the Office of Northeast Asian Affairs (Emmons)
[Washington,] July 19, 1951. SECRET
Subject: Japanese Peace Treaty
Participants: Dr. Yu Chan Yang, Korean Ambassador
Mr. Pyo Wook Han, First Secretary,Korean Embassy
Ambassador John Foster Dulles
Mr. Arthur B. Emmons, 3rd., Officer in Charge, Korean Affairs

The Korean Ambassador called upon Mr. Dulles at 2 o`clock this afternoon by prior appointment. In opening the conversation Dr. Yang presented Mr. Dulles with a note addressd to the Secretary (copy attached) raising certain points which the Korean Govenment wished to have considered for incorporation in the Japanese peace treaty.(omit)

Mr. Dulles noted that paragraph1 of the Korean Ambassador`s communication made no reference to the Island of Tsushima and the Korean Ambassador agreed that this had been omitted. Mr. Dulles then inquired as to the location of the two islands, Dokdo and Parangdo. Mr. Han stated that these were two small islands lying in the Sea of Japan, he believed in the general vicinity of Ullungdo. Mr. Dulles asked whethr these islands had been Korean before the Japanese annexation, to which the Ambassador replied in the affirmative. If that were the case, Mr. Dulles saw no particular problem in including these islands in the petinent part of the treaty which related to the renunciation of Japanese territorial claims to Korean territory.(omit)

This normally uninhabited rock formation was according to our information never treated as part of Korea and, since about 1905, has been under the jurisdiction of the Oki Islands Branch Office of Shiname Prefecture of Japan. The island does not appear ever before to have been claimed by Korea. geovisit();http://visit.geocities.jp/visit.gif?&r=http%3A//www.google.com/search%3Fq%3DTakeshima%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3D off%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial%26start%3D10%26sa%3DN&b=Netscape%205.0%20%28Windows%3B%20en-US%29&s=1024x768&o=Win32&c=16&j=true&v=1.2



Rainmaker,


I really don't want to discuss this anymore. I think we've exhausted the well here. I included the text above to indicate that the U.S. supported Japanese claims on Takeshima, further, Japan has tried to settle its claim peacefully through the International World Court, while Korea has refused to even recognize that the islands are disputed and has gone so far as to issue commerative stamps depicting the islands and even fired on Japanese fishing vessels during the 1970s.

(http://visit.geocities.jp/visit.gif)

[rainmaker]

Read this... It will help you understand why Korea claims Tokdo is Korea land..

Anyway, do you have any accurate map which show exact location of Dokdo before 1905?

1. My personal opinion is irrelevant; I only relay facts from documents for anyone to examine. One expert, among many others, is Prof. Hori, Kazuo 堀和生, Kyoto University, Department of Economics. Please refer to Hori, Kazuo, Japan's Incorporation of Takeshima Into Its Territory in 1905. Korea Observer 28: pp. 477-525 Autumn 1997.

There are two such maps both called 대한여지도 大韓輿地圖, cartographed circa 1898. One is archived at Seoul National University, 奎章閣 Library, and the other on display at Sungshin Women's University Museum 誠信女子大學校 博物館. Unfortunately I cannot find a link with images big enough to identify Usando 于山島, Song, Byong Ki states that the map was cartographed by the Ministry of Education of the Choson Government 大韓帝國學部 in 1898, saying, "On this highly refined map, there is one small island to the east of Ullungdo 鬱陵島 called Usando 于山島...because the island at that was called Usando 于山島 in Seoul 漢城.")

Seoul National Univerity Library, 奎章閣 Library, 대한여지도 大韓輿地圖, 1898
http://www.land.go.kr/images/landinfo/popup/popup_mapimg07_03.jpg
http://www.independence.or.kr/NEW/media_data/thesis/1989/image/198902-02.jpg

Sungshin Women's Univ. Museum 誠信女子大學校 博物館, 대한여지도 大韓輿地圖, 1898
http://www.sungshin.ac.kr/~museum/1진열실/대한여1.gif

I am also aware of the existence of modern maps cartographed by the British, the French, US Americans, Russians, Germans, the Dutch, the Portuguese, and even the Japanese themselves identifying Tokdo, Dokdo, Boussole, Liancourt Rocks, Hornet Rocks, Manalai and Olivutsn Rocks, Takeshima as Corean, Coreene, Chosen, Tiosionj, or Korean before and after 1905. Identifying such sources with consistency and with cimprehensiveness would deserve a separate thread or subforum on its own due to the huge number of such cartographic works, already numbering in the hundreds just in Korea & Japan each.

To Koreans the island was also known as as "Kajido" 可支島 (Sealion island), "Sambongdo" 三峰島(Three-Rock Island) and "Sokdo" 石島. Since at least 1881, the island has been called Dokdo by Koreans, meaning "Lonely Island" or "Rock Island", depending on the Sino-Korean character that one uses for the word, "Dok" 獨~독. Two indigenous names used by Ullung Is. residents for the /toksom/ or /tolsom/ meaning "rocky island."

2. Since Silla's rule over the State of Usan 于山國 as a tributary state with all jurisdiction over said island, Koryo 高麗 dynasty continued its control over the territory, moving in people and out according to circumstances, as any government should to protect its people, land, natural resources, and sovereignty.

3-A. The earliest Choson 朝鮮 dynastic record of the island is found in the geographical section of the annals, The Veritable Records of King Sejong the Great 世宗壯憲大王實錄, compiled during 1432-1454, Circuit of Kangwon 江源道, District of Uljin 蔚珍縣, book 153, leaf 11 r. lines 3-8.

3-C. Prof. Hori Kazuo states, as is obvious from a straightforward reading of the text itself,

"The first apprearance of Takeshima Is.=Tokdo Is. in Choson 朝鮮 literature is earlier than that in Japanese literature by at least 213 years. According to (above mentioned) The Veritable Records of King Sejong the Great 世宗壯憲大王實錄, apart from Ullungdo Is. 鬱陵島 already known from Silla 新羅 times, Takeshima Is.=Tokdo Is. is depicted as an independent island which is visible from the other on a clear day. In Korea this Usando Is. 于山島 is also known as Tokdo Is. 獨島."

4-A. The earliest Japanese non-cartographic record of the islands that are believed to be identical to those mentioned in Korean sources, in contrast to Korean records that clearly state Korea's soverignty over both islands of Ullungdo 鬱陵島 (Dagelet Is.) and Tokdo 獨島 (Liancourt Rocks), only begins in 1667 with no claim to soverignty over the two islands at all. This came more than 200 years after the Choson 朝鮮 dynastic record, with Records on Observations in Oki Province (Onshu shichyou gokki) 隱州視聽合記 by Saitou Toyohito 斉藤豊仙, a hanshi 藩士 of Izumo 出雲 (east of today's Shimane ken 島根縣), book 1;

4-C. For anyone who might not be famiiar with the Classical Chinese grammar & textual anaysis, let me provide a straigh-forward translation of the following passage.

"見高麗如自雲州望隠州然則日本之乾地以此州為限"

"(from these places 松嶋 and 竹嶋) the viewing of Koryo 高麗(meaning 朝鮮) can be compared to the viewing of Inshu 隠州 Province from Unshu 雲州 Province. (Due to these proximities found in each country's landscapes) it therefore follows that as for the north-west region of Nippon 日本, one considers this Province 此州 as the (north-western) limit."

4-D. What could be 'this Province' 此州 ? 松嶋 and 竹嶋 were not provinces 州 at any point in Korean history, so . Neither did Nippon 日本 ever claimed them to be provinces 州 during its brief seizure of Tokdo 獨島 in 1905. This province 此州, the name of which was abbreviated in this terse passage of Classical Chinese could have been none other than the Province the book is describing; Oki 隠州 Province itself. Hence from the very beginning of Japan's description of the two islands, any concept of Japanese soverignty over the two islands of Ullungdo 鬱陵島 (Dagelet Is.) and Tokdo 獨島 (Liancourt Rocks) is entirely absent. They were positively recognized as outside Japanese territory, and by all accounts belonging to Koryo 高麗-Choson 朝鮮.

note: Mr. Tanaka Kunitaka's 田中邦貴 reading of 此州 as '松嶋 and 竹嶋' is considered highly irregular in terms of Classical Chinese text interpretation; if that were the case, Saitou Toyohito 斉藤豊仙 would have written this island (these islands) 此嶋 instead of this province 此州. The fact mains solid that his actual writing does not have 此嶋, but has 此州, this province, that is Oki 隠州 Province. Another point is that while an island such as Okishima Is. 隱岐嶋 is also the seat of a provincial government 隱州, it may well be referred to as a province 州, but an island 嶋, simply by being an island but not a seat of a provincial governmental office, may not be called a 州, a province.

5-A. Going back to your 1905 incident, let me find a year close to the year of the seizure of Tokdo 獨島 by Japan in Nov. 1905, The Imperial Editct No. 41, Article 2, dated Oct. 25, 1900, issued by Chosun Dynasty Emperor Kojong 大韓帝國高宗皇帝勅令第四十一號第二條 will make the point clear that the two islands were clearly under Korean rule at the time of its seizure by Japan in Feb. 1905. See Chosun Dynasty's Re-development of Ullungdo and Tokdo and Imperial Ordinance No.41 (http://www2.gol.com/users/hsmr/Content/East%20Asia/Korea/Dokto_Island/History/Shin_Yong-ha_5.html)

5-B. Korean Soereignty over 鬱陵島 and 獨島 Evidenced in Imperial Ordinance, October 25, 1900 published in Official Gazette No. 1716 大韓帝國官報第千七百十六號, October 27, 1900

Original document #1: http://www.koreartnet.com/wOOrII/initial/dokdo/img/d2-8.jpg
Original document #2: http://www.independence.or.kr/NEW/media_data/thesis/1996/image/19961403.jpg
trascribed into Korean with Chinese in brackets: http://www.independence.or.kr/NEW/media_data/thesis/1996/image/19961401.gif
Official Gazette No. 1716: http://www.news.go.kr/warp/webapp/sys/dn_attach?id=0212b7945d15a38e91be43e6

Article 3..In the Official Gazette of the 504th year since the beginning of the State, Month of 8, in references to Prefectural Offices, 19 characters starting from 鬱陵島 shall be legislated; in the Official Gazette of the 505th year since the beginning of the State, in reference to Imperial Ordinance No. 36, Article 5, the 六字 in 江原道二十六郡 shalled be amended to 七字; under Prefecture of Anhyob 安峽郡 shall be added the three characters of 鬱陵島.

5-C. "Japan has nothing to do with 'Ullungdo and Dokdo.'" Japanese Dajokan 泰政官, the Council of State, 1877,

In Oct. 16, 1876, Shimane ken 島根縣 asks Ministry of Home Affairs whether Takeshima 竹島 and Matsushima 松島 should be included in the map & land registry of Shimane ken. The Ministry concluded, "Takeshima 竹島 and Matsushima 松島 are Choson territory, and are not related to Nippon." The Ministry also files a request a formal decision to the Council of State, Mar. 17, 1877. Below is the formal decision from the Council of State.

Japan has nothing to with the islands (http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/temp14.html)

[rainmaker]

Read this too... Well, you ask for it...

In response to the compilation of the cadastre for Takeshima and another island in the Sea of Japan as per Home Office Inquiry.

Knowing that our country has nothing to do with them as the result of the communication between our old government and that country involved after the entry into the island by the Koreans in the fifth year of the Genroku, and having examined the view stated in the inquiry, the following draft instruction has been made for deliberation and sanction.

Draft Instruction

In reference to Takeshima and another island, it is to be understood that our country has nothing to do with them."Even 23 years before the Choson Ordinance, Japan denies its connection to the two islands.

During the conference about SF treaty, Korean maybe officer mentioned the same thing. However U.S. officer concluded;

Then U.S. omitted Dokdo from the islands which were renounced by Japan.
In fact, SF treaty never mention the islets belong to Korea.
How can it automatically belong to Korea?6-A. A literal reading of the following documents should suffice to nullify your SCAP/FRUS quotations. The reason they never took effect, was that the historical accuracy of those claims you quote were not such that could supercede what had been decided, announced, and enforced by the following documents. Although a bit long, I shall reproduce full texts whenever possible to prevent, and hopefully minimize circular debate and repetition.

6-B. Cairo Declaration, 1943: US, China, UK "The World and Japan" Database Project
Database of Postwar Japanese Politics and International Relations
Institute of Oriental Culture, University of Tokyo
[Title] The Cairo Declaration

[Place] North Africa
[Date] November 27, 1943
[Source] Department of State , The Department of State Bulletin, No.232,p.393. Japan's Foreign Relations-Basic Documents Vol.1, pp.55-56.

President Roosevelt, Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and Prime Minister Churchill, together with their respective military and diplomatic advisers, have completed a conference in North Africa.

The following general statement was issued:

(paragraph 1)"The several military missions have agreed upon future military operations against Japan. The Three Great Allies expressed their resolve to bring unrelenting pressure against their brutal enemies by sea, Iand, and air. This pressure is already rising.

(paragraph 2)"The Three Great Allies are fighting this war to restrain and punish the aggression of Japan. They covet no gain for themselves and have no thought of territorial expansion. It is their purpose that [u]Japan [B]shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the first World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and the Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China(1). Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed(2). The aforesaid three great powers, mindful of the enslavement of the people of Korea, are determined that in due course Korea shall become free and independent.

(paragraph 3)"With these objects in view the three Allies, in harmony with those of the United Nations at war with Japan, will continue to persevere in the serious and prolonged operations necessary to procure the unconditional surrender of Japan." 6-C. Note that the time range to be governed by the stripping of all territories "seized, occupied, stolen, or taken" by Japan is defined since 1914 in clause (1), there is no such limit in clause (2). Hence the seizure of Tokdo in 1905 by Shimane ken, and by extension by Japan, falls under clause (2) of Cairo Declaration.

6-D. Also noteworthy is the immutable fact that Japan was required to return all the following territories "seized, occupied, stolen, or taken" from its neighboring countires although the act of "seizing, occupying, stealing, or taking" occurred prior to 1914, or 1910.

(1) 1895.04: Taiwan & Penghudao 澎湖島 all returned to China
(2) 1905.02: Tokdo returned to Korea
(3) 1905.11: Liaodong Peninsula returned to China
(4) 1905.11: Sakhalin Is. returned to Russia
(5) 1910.08.22: Korea is returned to Korea

None of these decisions, announcements, and enforcements has been revoked to date, which only proves the loose nature of the said "SCAP/FRUS documents" frequently avoiding responsibility by such apologetic disclaimers as requoted below in 6-E.

6-E. I have already disproved all the points made by the three SCAP/FRUS quotations in this thread, post #5, SCAP Recognizes Takeshima as part of Japan (http://www.geocities.jp/tanaka_kunitaka/takeshima/10FRUS.html) linked to a page supplied by a Tanaka Kunitaka たなかくにたか 田中邦貴. Full page in Japanese & Korean below. Sorry, Mr.Tanaka does not offer an English page; however, Mark S. Lovmo provides a balancing English page with useful links below.

Japanese page by Tanaka Kunitaka (http://www.geocities.jp/tanaka_kunitaka/takeshima/)
Korean page by Tanaka Kunitaka (http://www.geocities.jp/tanaka_kunitaka/Takeshima/)

The 1948 Bombing of Dokdo Island by Mark S. Lovmo (http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/)
The Territorial Dispute over Dokdo by Mark S. Lovmo (http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/page4.html)

Therefore I shall not repeat my demonstration, but only comment on the language aspect of the officers' statements. Compare the weak statements below with the consistent use of 'will,' 'shall,' 'resolve,' and 'determined' in the Cairo Declaration. Obviously the three SCAP/FRUS quotations are not on the same plane as those statements that were announced & enforced, not classified and stored in an archive for decades without any practical force. Are not such instances of speech full of wind called double speak, which refers to the behavior of saying one thing but not really wanting to say it for some reason ? Forgive my dry humor; I'm exhausted, but I can go on if you want. ;-)

(SCAP/FRUS quotation #1: The Acting Political Adviser in Japan (Wiiliam J. Sebald) to the Secretary of State, Tokyo, November 14, 1949) "is old and appears valid..."

I have already elaborated as to the inaccurate and misleading nature of the Japanese rule over the island being old, as 大韓帝國's rule over the island is older than Japan's, Choson's rule over the island is even older, Koryo's rule over the island is even more so, with Shilla's rule over the island since 512 CE being the oldest. (see post #11, also this post #16, paragraphs 1-5) Therefore whatever claim to antiquity should come from Korea, not from Japan.

And what kind of statement is "appears valid ?" Even taking into consideration his obvious ingnorance in both Korean sources & Japanese sources, William J. Sebald's statement betrays his uncertainty and desire to avoid ultimate responsibility that might arise from his unsupported statement. Was Secretary of State expecting a report from Wiiliam J. Sebald for which Sebald was not prepared to speak with much confidence or substance ? That's an obvious point, but I couldn't rely on common sense without making an explicit statement of this obvious fact.

(SCAP/FRUS quotation #2: Undated Memorandum by Mr. Robert A. Fearey of the Office of Northeast Asian Affairs, Washington) "it is thought that .... would be...."

Robert A. Fearey also sounds unsure of his statement; why put a personal disclaimer by saying "I think" instead of making a straight statement ? Well he went further to put the statement in the passive form "It is thought that..." so that the agent of the action of airing his opinion, which is himself, can be left unstated. This is a sure sign of wanting to avoid responsibility.

Also why say "would" when there is the coverb of certainty "will/shall" ? That the English language was being used in such selective and cautious manner obliges me with good reason to further doubt the seriousness of said statement.

(SCAP/FRUS quotation #3: Memorandum of Conversation, by the Officer in Charge of Korean Affairs in the Office of Northeast Asian Affairs (Emmons), Washington, July 19, 1951) "according to our information..."

Again a disclaimer is found, meaning Officer Emmons had not grasped all relevant & necessary information to enable him to make any valid statement. No further comment on these obscure statements for now.

[samurai999]

Good job... You guys officially started a pi**ing contest.

Tim

[rainmaker]

You just can see that there are not much things to do here in Florida.... That is why they have to recount presidential vote over and over again...




Good job... You guys officially started a pi**ing contest.

Tim

[KevinF]

Well... that's impressive... might take a while to counter that massive amount of bulls**t, and besides, I want to eat dinner and watch "The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou"... I'll deal with you later...

[rainmaker]

As a matter of fact, I don't think you deserve to read this. You have already stamped this as bulls**t even before you read this. You still don't think you are streotyped person ? You don't need to deal with me later. You are not worth my time..


Well... that's impressive... might take a while to counter that massive amount of bulls**t, and besides, I want to eat dinner and watch "The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou"... I'll deal with you later...

[rainmaker]

Also found great article from MIT university. "Apologies in International Politics"

http://web.mit.edu/polisci/research/wip/Lind.pdf

[KevinF]

Rainmaker, here you go (by the way, please don't whine about my calling your post bovine excrement - this is the flames thread, take it - you've already peronsally labeled me as a number of things earlier):

First, I agree in part with your post. Let's not look to the SCAP/FRUS quotations for guidance on Takeshima. We can ignore them and still conclude the rightful owners of the islands.

The Cairo Issue and Takeshima

The Cairo Conference decelaration of 1943 stipulates "It is their purpose that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the first World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen form the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and the Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China. Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed."

If Japan's argument has validity, and Takeshima is an integral part of Japan, then the Cario Conference would in no way apply to Takeshima. Further, the islands were not taken from Korea, and the discussion below should demonstrate why Takeshima is an integral part of Japan.

The San Franciso Peace Treaty does not mention Takeshima. This should be read as the Peace Treaty defers judgement of the status of Takeshima, and not that the island is assumed to be Korean. By the same logic, it should not be inferred that Takeshima belongs to Japan. Sadly, we cannot look to the SF Peace Treaty for any resolution here.

The 1905 Claim by Japan

On January 28, 1905, Takeshima was officially incorporated into Shimane Prefecture in Japan. On August 19th of the same year, Japan built a naval watchtower on the island. At this time, there were no Koreans on the island, and further, Korea only learned of the watchtower on March 28 of the following year when an offical from Japan let it slip in a meeting.

Even if we assumed that the Japanese incorporation of the islands into Shimane Prefecture was illegal (or fell under the purvue of the Cairo Conference - your point 6-C), it is obvious that Korea was not in control of the island at this time. Further, there was no effort to exercise control (what the Japanese Foreign Ministry calls "effective control" over the islands in the press statement of 2004 listed in a previous post).

Let's assume jsut for the moment that the Shimane incorportion was illegal (just for moment okay - not necessarily my official stand on that), or that the Cairo Conference would specifically apply to Takeshima. Japan's historical claims extend almost 300 years previous to the incorporation in question.

The Map Issue

In your post number 65 on this thread, you ask if there was a map showing the accurate location of the island in question marking the Japanese claim. I take the question to mean that you are either a) ignorant of previous Japanese maps concerning Takeshima or b) that if there were a such a map, it would loan credibility to an assertion of a legtimate claim by Japan. The maps that you mention and to which you offer links are apparently from 1898 - some 6 years before the prefectural incorporation of the islands as such into Shimane.

Japan has a claim to Takeshima going back as far as 1618.* While it gave up claims to nearby Utsuryo island in 1696, it never gave up its claim to Takeshima.* In the 17th and 19th centuries, it was Japanese (not Korean) subjects who were making us of the islands.

Taken from Flying Yangban (http://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/2005/03/japan_and_korea.html): "I also think that proximity cannot be made the basis of territorial claims. Historically speaking, Japan (Tokugawa government) regarded Ullungdo as its territory, which resulted in a bitter dispute similar to that of today over Takeshima. Interestingly, before the Meiji era, it had been Ullungdo that had been called Takeshima by the Japanese. Shogun Tsunayoshi agreed to officially acknowledge Ullungdo as Chosun territory as a show of friendship. This act by the shogun infuriated his subject Konyo Aoki who contended that the rightful ownership of Ullungdo (Takeshima) by Japan is clearly written even in ancient Chinese history records. But what was done was done..." [elipses added]

"That the Tokugawa government regarded present-day Takeshima (then known as Matsushima) as Japanese territory is clear in a record of an execution of a fisherman, Yaemon Aizu, in 1836. His offense was that he reported to officials that he would be going to Matsushima (present-day Takeshima), but actually went to Ullungdo (Tokugawa-period Takeshima, by then Chosun territory), which was a serious breach of the isolation policy. In short, he was punished for going to a foreign country. It is clear from this ruling that fishing on Matsushima (present-day Takeshima) was considered OK since it was Japanese territory."

The author of the blog above quotes the Joongang Ilbo with the following: "in 1696, the 22nd year under King Sukjong's reign, 16 fishermen, including An Yong-bok of Dongrae, went to Ulleungdo island. When Mr. An saw Japanese fishermen and fishing boats, he rebuked them as to why they were on Korean soil. The Japanese responded that they were residents of Takeshima and came to Ulleungdo island for fishing. They claimed that Tokto was a part of Japanese territory."

Takeshima Tokai Yuraiki Bassho Hikae (??????????), written by ?ya Kyuemon (??????), records that in 1618 the Tokugawa Shogunate granted the ?ya and Murakawa families of H?ki province (modern Tottori) the permission to take feudal tenure of Ulleung-do, known at the time as Takeshima in Japanese. The families were using the sea around the islet for fishing as late as 1696. On the seaway to Ulleung-do were the Liancourt Rocks, known as Matsushima (??) by the Japanese, which were used as an intermediate port of call by their fishermen.

With regard to your points 3A through 4D, I must point to the following, taken liberally from Answers.com:

"The location of the Liancourt Rocks is recorded in several maps published in Japan such as Kaisei Nippon Yochi Rotei Zenzu (??????????, Revised Complete Map of Japanese Lands and Roads) published by Sekisui Nagakubo (?????) in 1779. Korean scholars however reject this map because the Liancourt Rocks are merely included in the map (that is exclusively for navigational purposes) together with Busan and Gyeoungsang Province, both of which belonged and still belong to Korea. If this map were to be brought up as proof of Japan's claim to the Liancourt Rocks, it would also imply that Busan and Gyeoungsang Province, both of which have never belonged to Japan, are also part of Japanese territory.

Korean also researchers argue that Sangoku Tsuran Yochi Rotei Zensu (??????????) by Shihei Hayashi (???) published in 1785, marks the Liancourt Rocks as Korean territory, pointing to a small island illustrated next to Ulleung-do. Japanese scholars point out that the island corresponds to Chuksodo, an islet adjoining island of Ulleung-do, rather than the Liancourt Rocks.

Professor Kim Mun-Gi (???) of Pusan University of Foreign Studies claims that he found an old Japanese map titled Chosen Hachido-no Zu (??????, 1758) that writes Ulleung-do and the Liancourt Rocks as one big island within the Korean territory and so that this map evidences that Japan recognized the Liancourt Rocks as Korean territory. Some Japanese sources claim that the map only shows that the island called Ulleung-do is a territory of a state called Usan-guk and does not mention the Liancourt Rocks.[2]

Park Young-Sik (???), a Korean scholar, argues that Historical Geography of Great Japan (???????), published by Yoshira Dogo (????) on March 31, 1900, records that when the local government of Shimane prefecture had inquired of the Japanese Meiji government whether the Liancourt Rocks would be merged into Shimane county, the Meiji government of Japan issued on March 17, 1877 that Japan had no relation with Takeshima. However, this refers to the islet of Ulleung-do, not the Liancourt Rocks, as noted on the page 434-435 of Historical Geography of Great Japan.

According to Korean scholars, Dae Dong Yeo Ji Do (?????, ?????), a map of Korea created by Jeongho Kim (???, ???) in 1861, includes the Liancourt Rocks.[3](This map is incomplete)

It should be noted that, as a result of the confusion between the names "Matsushima" and "Takeshima" on the part of Japan, there is much historical controversy when Japanese documents refer to the Liancourt Rocks. Most Japanese documents and maps after 1905 use the name "Takeshima" or outrightedly place the islands in Korean territory under the title "Dokdo", while pre-1905 documents tend to use either "Takeshima", "Matsushima", or entirely exclude the islets.

I am actually being really fair with the above use of quotations. It basically states that there are competing maps. Some are incomplete, some are confused about the location of the islands, and other correctly identify the island are Japanese or as Koreans depending on the authors and purpose.

Your mentioning of the bombing of Takeshima doesn't really support your position either. To sum it up for those who are reading, "From 1947 to 1953, the United States armed forces periodically used Dokdo/Takeshima as a bombing range. On June 8, 1948, several Korean boats were in the water around Dokdo and were sunk as a result of a flight of American airplanes bombing the islets. An estimated 150 to 320 Korean fisherman were killed as a result."

[continues on next post]

[KevinF]

I would argue that during the inident, SCAP Instruction #677 of January 29, 1946 (which excluded the islands from Japan's administrative authority) was in effect, and therefore, it was Korean ships and not Japanese ones to get bombed. I must note that all other islands mentioned in SCAP #677 were later returned to Japanese control. Takeshima is the only one not returned.

The North Korean Claim

"According to the North Korean constitution, the entire Korean peninsula and surrounding islands, including Takeshima, belongs to North Korea (as in the South Korean constitution) and North Korean' state press heavily criticizes Japan for their 'attempts to invade the Republic territory.'"

You know, I just realized that Koreans seem to care a lot more about this issue than almost any Japanese do. According to a website by Mark S. Lovmo (http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/page4.html): Countless Korean Dokdo websites and web-boards have come online. Koreans have also been hacking into, and disrupting Japanese webservers that harbor pro-Japanese Dokdo websites. Almost all domain names related to Dokdo are controlled by Koreans. Dokdo related domain names such as 'liancourt.org', 'tokdo.com', 'tokdo.co.kr', 'takeshima.com', 'takeshima.net', 'takeshima.org', 'takeshima.co.kr', 'tokdo.net' and 'takeshima.net' were all snatched up by Koreans almost in the minutes immediately after they became available. In cyberspace, Dokdo is entirely Korean territory. Mark indicates that the reason for this is the recent polls of other Asian nations which show more support for Japanese claims than for Korean ones.

I haven't really bothered to investigate the Japanese language information available online for additional information regarding Takeshima. Just like you, I already had my opinion regarding this before we started this little chat. I hope that I have taken your claims seriously (because your last post was annoying in its whining), and at least shown good reason for some of your points to be seriously doubted and called into question. As Mark's quote above indicates, there is a lot more information online to support your contentions because of Korean hatred for Japan and rampant nationalism, so your specific posts are difficult to contend with (if only for the lack of English language information, and not for lack of conviction).

Anyway, the islands are illegally occupied. And finally:

Why won't Korea let the International Courts settle the issue if their claims are so rock solid (pun intended)?

[KevinF]

Rainmaker,

Thanks for your link to the article by Jennifer Lind. It was interesting.

Doing a search of her name through Google, I cam across an interesting article in the Journal of the Air Force Associatioin that I would like to share with you:

I noticed a few interesting quotes:

Fueled by superheated economic expansion, the mainland communist giant (China) has launched an aggressive military modernization program and is testing the limits of its military reach. In 2004, for instance, Chinese surveillance and reconnaissance vessels conducted more than 30 illegal incursions into Japanese territorial waters.

Hmmm... what was I saying a couple of posts ago about Chinese aggression?

Here's another: There are even reports that China, flexing its growing economic and military muscle, has begun demanding that Australia end or modify its 50-year-old alliance with the United States.

Well, I don't want to distract from the main Takeshima discussion, but this is exactly what I was taking about when I mentioned my support for the removal of Article 9 of the Japanese constitution and for Japan to assume a larger, more normal role in Asia.

[drizzt]

Here's another: There are even reports that China, flexing its growing economic and military muscle, has begun demanding that Australia end or modify its 50-year-old alliance with the United States.


if that statement is remotley accurate, i beleive china may overstep its bounds very quickly....(note to quote a popular phrase" i have no dog in this fight", im simply commenting on a topic introduced in a single paragraph)

[ISSAC RU]

Rainmaker,

Thanks for your link to the article by Jennifer Lind. It was interesting.

Doing a search of her name through Google, I cam across an interesting article in the Journal of the Air Force Associatioin that I would like to share with you:

I noticed a few interesting quotes:

Fueled by superheated economic expansion, the mainland communist giant (China) has launched an aggressive military modernization program and is testing the limits of its military reach. In 2004, for instance, Chinese surveillance and reconnaissance vessels conducted more than 30 illegal incursions into Japanese territorial waters.

Hmmm... what was I saying a couple of posts ago about Chinese aggression?

Here's another: There are even reports that China, flexing its growing economic and military muscle, has begun demanding that Australia end or modify its 50-year-old alliance with the United States.

Well, I don't want to distract from the main Takeshima discussion, but this is exactly what I was taking about when I mentioned my support for the removal of Article 9 of the Japanese constitution and for Japan to assume a larger, more normal role in Asia.

Ausises are now our friend , take that Uncle Sam .....
FTA between AUS and China would benefit AUS around 50 something
bilion dollars every year.
WUhahahahahahah.........You can't stop us.......
We can see thru Capitalist like no-one else..

Sry about going away from the topic , Ignore my comments and
please continue the posts about The Korean territory issue.

[KevinF]

Issac,

Learn to spell. Learn some grammar. Then come back and talk okay?

Australia has financial ties with China, but has virtually nothing in commen with the "mainland communist giant" culturally, politically and historically.

Oh wait, you said something intelligent: "ignore my comments." I apologize, I should read your intelligent-sounding and cleverly-crafted posts more carefully.

[rainmaker]

Kevin-san,
Sorry, if have become too personal on this issue. I just believe that Dokto is part of our country and I want to protect our land. I have to admit that there are few incident that I was not respecting your opinion. Please accept my apology. I cannot blame that you have chosen to take Japanese side due to many reasons. It is your choice. But I am only asking you to listen both side before you make your judgment.

If Japan's argument has validity, and Takeshima is an integral part of Japan, then the Cario Conference would in no way apply to Takeshima. Further, the islands were not taken from Korea, and the discussion below should demonstrate why Takeshima is an integral part of Japan.
=> Yup !! Everyone agrees on this part. That is why everyone is trying to show historical proof who owns this island prior to 1914.

History issue

I guess you already read answers.com.

Japan's claim: Takeshima Tokai Yuraiki Bassho Hikae (??????????), written by ?ya Kyuemon (??????), records that in 1618 the Tokugawa Shogunate granted the ?ya and Murakawa families of H?ki province (modern Tottori) the permission to take feudal tenure of Ulleung-do, known at the time as Takeshima in Japanese. The families were using the sea around the islet for fishing as late as 1696. On the seaway to Ulleung-do were the Liancourt Rocks, known as Matsushima (??) by the Japanese, which were used as an intermediate port of call by their fishermen.

=> They used to give out permission when they travel to foreign region. If they are fishing in their own land, why do they need permission ?

Korean's claim:
-The first written records on Tokdo are traced to Silla pon'gi (Annals of the Kings of Silla) and Yoljon (Biographies) both in Samguk sagi (History of the Three Kingdoms). These entries state that Tokdo became a part of the Korean territory in 512 A.D. when Usan'guk was subjuated by Silla. Some Japanese scholars question whether Usan'guk comprised Tokdo as part of its territory when the country was brought under the dominion of Silla. To this query the Man'gi yoram (Handbook of state Affairs) of 1808 quotes the Yojiji (Gazette) in its chapter on military administration: " Usando and Tokdo all belonged to Usan'guk, and Usando is what Japanese call Matsushima."
The Japanese scholars concede to the fact that up until 1900 Ullungdo had been called Takeshima and Tokdo, Matsushima, by Japanese. As for the Korean appellation Tokdo was originally called Usando implying its derivation from Usan'guk.

Around the end of Koryo, waegu (Japanese pirates) had become increasingly rampant and plundered coastal areas. As Ullungdo had been subject to their frequent and severe pillage, King T'aejong of the Choson dynasty sought the safety of the islanders by evacuating them and began to assume a vacant island policy toward Ullungdo.

Some of them escaped to Ullungdo for re-settlement, but were always compelled to return. In this process Tokdo acquired the official designation of Usando.

Although the Chosun dynasty followed this vacant island policy for Ullungdo and Tokdo since the time of King T'aejong -- the rock islands of Tokdo were uninhabitable anyway, this did not mean they had been abandoned. The administrative policy was adopted out of necessity to ensure the safety and security of the island's previous inhabitants.
Following in the footsteps of King T'aejong King Sejong also adhered to this policy, but confirmed Korea's title to these islands in the Sejong sillok (Annals of King Sejong) as follows:
The two islands of Usan and Mullung are located in the sea due east of the hyon (country), and they are not far from each other, so one is visible from the other on a fine day. They were called Usan'guk during Silla period.
Usan refers to Tokdo, and Mullung to Ullung, and the hyon to uljinhyon (country).

Japan Claim
Even if we assumed that the Japanese incorporation of the islands into Shimane Prefecture was illegal (or fell under the purvue of the Cairo Conference - your point 6-C), it is obvious that Korea was not in control of the island at this time. Further, there was no effort to exercise control (what the Japanese Foreign Ministry calls "effective control" over the islands in the press statement of 2004 listed in a previous post).
=> There has been many records that people used to live in this island before 1905. You cannot just take over the someone else's island because no one lives there. Do you know how many islands in US that are not in controlled. Will all those island can be subject to be claimed by other countries ??? In addition, On October 25, 1900, the Korean Empire issued Korean Government Imperial Ordinance No. 41, incorporating Dokdo as part of Korean Empire.
=> Also think about political weakness at that time. Japan is equipped with modern military equipment and ready to invades to mainland. Korea didn't have enough power to refuse such Prefecture.

The Map Issue
I am actually being really fair with the above use of quotations. It basically states that there are competing maps. Some are incomplete, some are confused about the location of the islands, and other correctly identify the island are Japanese or as Koreans depending on the authors and purpose.
=> Take a look at these maps. You can see that some of Japanese Map also agree that Dokto is part of Korean territory. There are many maps made by Japan that Dokto is part of Korea. Of course you can say Japanese were confused too….
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Maps+of+Korea&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1
- Paldochongdo, Korean map published on 1531
- Early 1700 Map
- 1757 Korean map, Jung SangGi
- 1785, Japanese map, Hayasi
- 1882, Japanese map, by Japanese
- 1882, Great Japan Map, by Japanese
- 1886, Morikinseki map, by Japanese
- 1878, Bungyunsando, by Japanese
- 1936, by Japanese government

Why won't Korea let the International Courts settle the issue if their claims are so rock solid (pun intended)?
=> Simple. How do you guarantee that it will be fair judgment. We don't think it will be fair judgment since Japan is still policy & economically stronger than Korea. Once it goes to court, Japan can buy vote from other country. You cannot ignore their lobbying ability.

I would love to see a more powerful Japan. My advocating Japanese possession by means of troops is not a comment of hatred.
=> You also have been keep telling me that you are sorry for Japan and you want to give them more power. They military budget per year is $5B, 2nd largest spending in the world. They have 150K army, 45K navy, 45K air force. 203 F15 and so on. It is almost impossible for Russia, China and N. Korea to invade Japan. How much power do they need ? Do you want to give them a right to invade other countries ? Japanese are not stupid. They are already developing nuclear weapon with help of US. Koreans already scared of such aggression of Japanese.

Finally, I am not scared of regular Japanese people. I am scared of Japanese extremist within the government. I am sure I don't need to explain why..

[ISSAC RU]

Kevin-san,

I would love to see a more powerful Japan. My advocating Japanese possession by means of troops is not a comment of hatred.
=> You also have been keep telling me that you are sorry for Japan and you want to give them more power. They military budget per year is $5B, 2nd largest spending in the world. They have 150K army, 45K navy, 45K air force. 203 F15 and so on. It is almost impossible for Russia, China and N. Korea to invade Japan. How much power do they need ? Do you want to give them a right to invade other countries ? Japanese are not stupid. They are already developing nuclear weapon with help of US. Koreans already scared of such aggression of Japanese.

Finally, I am not scared of regular Japanese people. I am scared of Japanese extremist within the government. I am sure I don't need to explain why..



Japan is a very scary country . Its military budget is 2nd in the World.
Right after U.S.A.
Stop Japanese aggression before it is too late.

[samurai999]

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp#WorldMilitarySpending

I smell BS Isaac... China has bigger military budget than Japan.. And it is CHINA that is 3rd to the US.. in addition, the US usually spends money more on technologies rather than massing troops.

Stop your ultranationalism and chill.

TIm

[Berugijin]

Japan is a very scary country . Its military budget is 2nd in the World.
Right after U.S.A.
Stop Japanese aggression before it is too late.

"Among non-Nato nations, Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) spent US $46.9 billion on defense in 2003, The People's Republic of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China), US$ 32.8 billion, and Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia), US $13 billion, (5%, 4%, and 1% of the world total, respectively)."

(According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_budget, admittedly a questionable source)

"Japan spends about US$46 billion on its military yearly, ranking among the top five military spenders in the world [1] (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904504.html) (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904504.html)."

(According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan#Modern_era)

Military expenditures - dollar figure: $45.841 billion (2004)

(According to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html#Military)

However, from the CIA World Factbook the $45 billion is only 1% of the GDP. When we look at China in the Factbook we see that they spent "$67.49 billion (2004)" and this is " 4.3% (2004)" of the GDP.

These numbers can be viewed in yet another way: Japan has "males age 18-49: 22,234,663 (2005 est.)" fit for military service. China has "males age 18-49: 281,240,272 (2005 est.)" fit for service.

I wonder about that Japanese agression, where is it? You mean that they want to invade Taiwan? Or how they annexed Tibet? Oh wait that was China! I'm afraid that the Japanese are about as aggressive as big pink fluffy bunnies, hellbent on keeping the Wa (I don't think this involves shooting and that sort of things). You can make the bushido-argument like in WW2, but the average Japanese rather watches baseball than practice kendo (which is just so smelly).

[rainmaker]

Sorry. My currency exchange rate was wrong. It is $44B, in 2003.

Asia Times, Aug 19, 2004: US spending alone has risen from $296 billion in 1997 to $336 billion in 2002 and $379 billion in 2003. In contrast, Japan spends an average of about $44 billion annually on its military, France about $40 billion, the United Kingdom about $35 billion and China about $26 billion.



They military budget per year is $5B, 2nd largest spending in the world.

[rainmaker]

War does not start because of aggressive people. I believe it is can be caused by many other reason, including politics, ideology, ignorance and many others. I don't believe Japanese people prior WW2 enjoyed killing people.



I wonder about that Japanese agression, where is it? You mean that they want to invade Taiwan? Or how they annexed Tibet? Oh wait that was China! I'm afraid that the Japanese are about as aggressive as big pink fluffy bunnies, hellbent on keeping the Wa (I don't think this involves shooting and that sort of things). You can make the bushido-argument like in WW2, but the average Japanese rather watches baseball than practice kendo (which is just so smelly).

[Yaiba]

Japan is a very scary country . Its military budget is 2nd in the World.
Right after U.S.A.
Stop Japanese aggression before it is too late.
Issac Ru... I hope you really are a 16-year old and not an adult because then I could forgive you for your silly comments about "Japanese aggession". *Sigh*... I understand that you're proud of your Chinese heritage, and that's OK, but your posts about anything to do with Japan is bordering on "hate"... All you're doing is just alienating yourself from everyone else.

Firstly, I think you fail to realise that Japan has had a pacifist constitution in place since the end of WW2, which means that Japan does not allow its military to attack another soverign state. Secondly, Japan's military is a self defence force, which means that it cannot engage in combat unless it is under direct threat by another military aggressor. Thirdly, Japan's military expenditure reflects its need to continually upgrade and be prepared for a potential war in an unsteady region where it is surrounded by countries such as North Korea and China, both of which are certainly not close friends of Japan. Also, they had to worry about the USSR up until the early-90's, and even though it is Russia now, Japan does not have an official peace treaty with them yet. Lastly, Japan is the 2nd largest economy in the world and, therefore, it cannot afford to neglect its military (regardless of its strong ties with the US) as it is too big a gamble.

Kevin F... I understand your point of view about wanting Japan to play a more significant military role in East Asia but I do not agree that Japan should revise/denounce its pacifist constitution. Japan does not need another Hiroshima or Nagasaki incident, nor does it need another fire-bombing of Tokyo and its major cities... and for this reason, the majority of sensible Japanese citizens will not allow this to happen (has anyone seen what Hiroshima is like each year on August 6th?). Many even voiced their concerns and objections to the Japanese government's decision to send military engineers to Iraq, even though these engineers are there on non-combat humanitarian duties.

Japan has changed so much for the better in the last 60 years... and it disappoints me to see people still trying to compare today's Japan to the Japan of pre-1945.

[KevinF]

Yaiba,

Thank you - finally a well-balanced, moderate and eloquent opinion (which to me, carries more weight not only because fo your expression, but because of your geographic location).

Issac Ru is normally off the deep end when it comes to these postings. Do a search of his posts to find such gems as "the Dali Llama = Osama bin Laden" etc.). It's fine though, this is a flames thread, after all.

In principle, I would love to agree with you, Yaiba. As a matter of princple, the fewer the nations with a capacity to destroy the better... however, this neglects the current geopolitical situation in Asia. It would seem that you and I both agree that China poses a threat to the stability of the region. In addition, the threat of North Korean silliness can easily steal the headlines any given day of the week. South Korean and North Korean ships routinely exchange fire and the fragile cease fire has errupted into a number of incidents across the decades.

The argument is simple: why shouldn't a peaceful nation (possible the only nation in Asia to maintain peace for the last 60 years) be denied the fundamental national rights of a standing army?

China obviously has one - complete with conscription as well, and they have used it (Tibet, downtown Beijing) or threatened to use it (Taiwan), as has Korea (in 1980, when ROK troops were use to quell attempted rebellion in addition to the unresolved civil war). No one has really mentioned Russia here in this thread as well, as Russia is not a peaceful nation and even continues to occupy islands stolen from Japan north of Hokkaido.

Further, as the UN continues to ask Japan to play a more active role in international peace-keeping efforts, which by definition, require deployment of military forces, Japan may have to face a change in the constitution or be unable to legally meet U.N. calls for assistance.

As for the rest of you out there who justify your positions by claiming that "history repeats itself" and we must be ever viligant of Japanese aggression, I would simply argue that I hope the following more recent Asian history does not repeat itself:

- Indo-Pakistani War of 1947
- North Korea, backed by China, invades South Korea, 1950-1953 (resulting in a loss of over 2 million lives)
- First Indochina War 1946-1954 (resulting in appx. 400,000 dead)
- China invades a foreign, soverigen nation (Tibet) 1950 (relocation, torture and persecution of Tibetans continues today)
- Sino-Indian War of 1962 (border conflict between China and India
- Indo-Pakistani War of 1965
- Second Indochina War 1957-1975 (resulting in 500,000 dead)
- Civil War in Pakistan 1971 (1.5 million dead)
- Indo-Pakistani War of 1971
- military rule in Thailand starting in 1976 (hundreds killed by paramilitary)
- Khmer Rouge in Cambodia 1975-1979 (resulting in 1.7 million deaths)
- Martial Law in Pakistan 1977-1985
- Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia 1980-1993 (a few more dead)
- Chinese soldiers massacre student protestors in 1989 (440 - 7000 students killed)
- Kargil Conflict between India and Pakistan 1999 (over 3,000 dead)

IMHO, most Asian nations do not even have the right to criticize Japan - a nation that has enjoyed peace and stability for 60 years.

[ISSAC RU]

Yaiba,


- Indo-Pakistani War of 1947
- North Korea, backed by China, invades South Korea, 1950-1953 (resulting in a loss of over 2 million lives)
- First Indochina War 1946-1954 (resulting in appx. 400,000 dead)
- China invades a foreign, soverigen nation (Tibet) 1950 (relocation, torture and persecution of Tibetans continues today)
- Sino-Indian War of 1962 (border conflict between China and India
- Indo-Pakistani War of 1965
- Second Indochina War 1957-1975 (resulting in 500,000 dead)
- Civil War in Pakistan 1971 (1.5 million dead)
- Indo-Pakistani War of 1971
- military rule in Thailand starting in 1976 (hundreds killed by paramilitary)
- Khmer Rouge in Cambodia 1975-1979 (resulting in 1.7 million deaths)
- Martial Law in Pakistan 1977-1985
- Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia 1980-1993 (a few more dead)
- Chinese soldiers massacre student protestors in 1989 (440 - 7000 students killed)
- Kargil Conflict between India and Pakistan 1999 (over 3,000 dead)

IMHO, most Asian nations do not even have the right to criticize Japan - a nation that has enjoyed peace and stability for 60 years.


Please remember , because of the Japanese invasion in WWII , China
along suffered 35 millions people.More than 560 Billion US damage in side of China. Compare to those numbers you mentionedabove , this is how many times greater?
That is only in China , What about Japanese occupation in Korea from 1910-1945? The pacific countries? Phillipines...etc..
If you add everything together , it will be more than 50 Millions.
Do you think we should just forget about that ?
YOu comment of ''IMHO, most Asian nations do not even have the right to criticize Japan - a nation that has enjoyed peace and stability for 60 years''
just makes me wanna laught at your sense of foolishness.

[ISSAC RU]

"Among non-Nato nations, Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) spent US $46.9 billion on defense in 2003, The People's Republic of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China), US$ 32.8 billion, and Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia), US $13 billion, (5%, 4%, and 1% of the world total, respectively)."

(According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_budget, admittedly a questionable source)

"Japan spends about US$46 billion on its military yearly, ranking among the top five military spenders in the world [1] (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904504.html) (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904504.html)."

(According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan#Modern_era)

Military expenditures - dollar figure: $45.841 billion (2004)

(According to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html#Military)

However, from the CIA World Factbook the $45 billion is only 1% of the GDP. When we look at China in the Factbook we see that they spent "$67.49 billion (2004)" and this is " 4.3% (2004)" of the GDP.

These numbers can be viewed in yet another way: Japan has "males age 18-49: 22,234,663 (2005 est.)" fit for military service. China has "males age 18-49: 281,240,272 (2005 est.)" fit for service.

I wonder about that Japanese agression, where is it? You mean that they want to invade Taiwan? Or how they annexed Tibet? Oh wait that was China! I'm afraid that the Japanese are about as aggressive as big pink fluffy bunnies, hellbent on keeping the Wa (I don't think this involves shooting and that sort of things). You can make the bushido-argument like in WW2, but the average Japanese rather watches baseball than practice kendo (which is just so smelly).

You believe everything that the americans say?
Havn't you learned lesson from Iraq yet ?
THe Americans invaded IRaq because of WMD..
Where is the WMD ?
Can they find it ? NO
Did they lie about the WMD thing? YES
Did they get away with it ? YES
Do you think they will lie to the public again? NOT the first time
DO you think they will use the same kind of lie to invade another
country in the world again? OF course , the answer is YES.

[samurai999]

ISSAC, you are an ultra nationalist and a straight up hater. if you hate Japan so much and afraid of their polices, why practice kendo? Why buy Japanese electronics? Why buy anything Japanese for that matter? If you are that pro-China, go buy a chinese car and drive that in Canada. Buy chinese electronics from a company that is BASED in china. (No.. Sony Panasonic, Toshiba, Sanyo, hitachi, and JVC are Jp companies.. sorry) Hell why don't you buy a chunk of Chinese land, supplant that in Canada, build your house out of Chinese wood, Chinese plastic, Chinese metal, and chinese stone so that you have every comfort of China there. :rolleyes:

And where is the Japanese agression from present day Japan you are talking about? Whenever you talk about Japanese agression, you refer to the "Rape of Nanking", comfort women, etc. Which was when? 60yrs ago? Where is the evidence that Japan is massing their armies or preparing for an invasion? NOWHERE. Most of that money is spent on VERY EXPENSIVE hi tech defense mechanisms to protect Japan from crazy nonsensical people like you.

Tim

[rainmaker]

I thought most of those electronics are made in China anyway... Isn't it ???




Buy chinese electronics from a company that is BASED in china. (No.. Sony Panasonic, Toshiba, Sanyo, hitachi, and JVC are Jp companies.. sorry) Hell why don't you buy a chunk of Chinese land, supplant that in Canada, build your house out of Chinese wood, Chinese plastic, Chinese metal, and chinese stone so that you have every comfort of China there. :rolleyes:

Tim

[KevinF]

Issac,

The point of my post is that after 1945, Japan has been a peaceful nation. Other nations, including both Koreas (who are still in a state of armed conflict), can't make that claim. Other nations in Asia haven't contributed to the U.N. like Japan has (who, behind the US, is responsible for paying the second largest amount of its operation budget).

I just wanted to remind everyone of the conflicts that have occured throughout Asia since the end of WWII. None of them had anything to do with Japan, who was busy defending itself from Godzilla and Kittychan (it lost that particular conflict).

The reality is that Tim is correct. Most Japanese are afraid of China (and very suspicious of Korea). Its ultranationalists like you that give them good cause.

The Japanese national soccer team just played North Korea to secure a berth in the 2006 World Cup. The game had to be held in Thailand with no fans because of fear of violence by aggressive Korean fanatics.

Issac, by the way, how was your post realted to the discussion? What does Iraq have to do with the Chinese military post you quote? By the way, you still haven't told me which Chinese university you are planning to attend...did you know that you can major in "Border Defense" at some Chinese universities? I could see you could really go far in that field... :confused2

[drizzt]

You believe everything that the americans say?


you realy make yourself sound dumb, DO you beleive weverything the american government is false? NO.......

isaac try to type in coherent sentences man, this little one line crap makes no sense(i dont care about spelling or grammar, but finish a though once in a while).

[ISSAC RU]

Maybe that was a little bit off topic , but my point is to tell
people not believe everything that Americans say.
USA is exaggerating chinese millitary power so he could
launch more military action in Asia under the name of
" Stablize peace and Restore order , Bring democracy and
freedom to the Asian people''.
Chinese millitary power isn't as powerful as many people
thought. Most of its airforce is still back in 70s.
Although China claims she has the 3rd Biggest airforce
in the world , but mostly consiste Chinese modified versions
of Mig-21s. The newones are just only Su-27sk and Su-30MK II
series.

The reason why we ''hate'' the Japanese isvery simple.
Its rapidly growth of military spending and its plan to dominate
Asia by its will.

I am a normal Chinese teen , I am not a ultra-nationalist.
If you ever go to any Chinese high schools , You will see
people with even more radical ideas. I am one of those
''peaceful co-exitence'' people.
Have you seen the protest that was going on in China
a month ago? Those people wante to complete destroy
Japan ....I just want to Japan to tear down its war-criminal
shrine and teach their kids like the germans do right now.
I am no radical Kid , I guess you won't understand since
we were brought up differently.

For KevinF :

I am planning to go to one of local Canadian university .
The department I will be going would be International
relations or international relations.. After that , If I am good enough .
I will be returing to China and hopefully I could coninue my
education at China for further development. Maybe I would like
to Join the Army or Be a part of the government.
Thx for asking.

[rainmaker]

Okay, let's assume Japan has right to have a army. Their military budget is within world 5th largest already. They probably need to spend 2nd largest military budget to buff up their military power. If their army is strong enough to fight against China, don't you think they will have enough military power to fight against not only other small Asian countries but also against Russia, and even USA ?? Who will stop them to spend money on military. What if Japan starts bullying around other Asian countries like Korea, Taiwan and SE Asia? Who will protect those countries from Japan? What if Japan starts spend their budget on new military high tech that can fight against US missles, Stealth and have even nuclear weapon. As a matter of fact, Dick Cheny once mentioned that Japan already has know-how to make nuclear weapon. I don't think they will just invade US for no reason. But things can happen. It happened before(only 60 years ago).



You cannot gurantee the world peace anyway. You never know about what will happen to world politics. What does it takes to get into war thesedays? Ambitious politician + Excuse + Media. Maybe US might not so comfortable that Japan spends too much money on military and push Japan to spend less. There might be other kind of conflict, it could be triggers by gas shortage, territorial issue or terrorist act. Right now, US is happy. We are not scared of Japan. Even most Japanese are happy as is. US is the strongest country in the world. Russia and China are not the bad boy as used to be. Now, why would US want to take a risk again? US is already concerning that S.Korea and Japan might start building nuclear weapon because of N. Korea. I probably assume lot of things. But it is about risk management.

[KevinF]

Issac,

That was the first post of yours I have read that worth anything.

You say Chinese military power isn't so great, eh? :ponder: Maybe you will grow up to influence the Chinese government not to use thier military power, regardless of its capability...

You know, you almost had me there - thinking there was a spark of rational thought going on until I read this:


The reason why we ''hate'' the Japanese isvery simple.
Its rapidly growth of military spending and its plan to dominate
Asia by its will.

I'm sorry, but you had me in stiches by the time I read the part about "peaceful-coexistence." I love how the "peaceful coexistence" philosophy you subscribe gells with your selection of an email address and your desire to be in the Chinese army. Maybe you will get to practice tank maneuvors on unarmed students? Or maybe you will get the chance to pistol whip monks in Tibet? Naaaa... I know your heart is set on being the first off the landing ship on the beaches in Taiwan, right? :chinese:

As I've mentioned before, you've already equated the Dali Llama with Osama bin Laden and made a complete fool of yourself with your radical statements (too many to single out). You ask for "peaceful-coexistence" and yet want to go to Japan and destroy a religious shrine?

Hey, let me know when someone from the PRC gets a Nobel Peace Prize, okay? The Dalai Lama got his in 1989. Japanese Prime Minister Eisaku Sato got his in 1974.

I won't hold my breath for a Chinese nominee...

[KevinF]

Rainmaker,

I liked it better when you were just quoting Answers.com.


Their military budget is within world 5th largest already. They probably need to spend 2nd largest military budget to buff up their military power. If their army is strong enough to fight against China, don't you think they will have enough military power to fight against not only other small Asian countries but also against Russia, and even USA ??


Read the article I posted earlier in the Air Force association. It discusses that fact that Japan's capability is defensive, and lacks attack planes, bombers, etc. Further, consider Tim's statements about budget not being the same because of the cost of the defensive system Japan is employing. For example, Japan bought the very expensive Aegis Cruisers for its Fleet because it integrates into the joint ABM system being developed in the US to defend against missles.

The threat of Korean missle attack isn't just a possibility - its a reality. Why discuss the potential for Japanese military buildup when North Korea has already launched a nuclear-capable missle over Japan? The threat of Chinese aggression isn't just a possibility, its another reality as well.


Russia and China are not the bad boy as used to be.

Eh? Russia is a bad boy, believe it. Check into some of their recent conflicts. Also, Putin has been consolidating power left and right. As for China, I'm dumbfounded. Someone hasn't been paying attention to history again, shame on you. Look at Issac's posts. And he's a Chinese kid living in Canada! He even says he's not radical! Imagine what the rank-and-file Chinese are like!

And I don't seriously believe that Japan has any intentions of developing nuclear weapons. South Korea did at one point. The US convinced them otherwise (by agreeing to defend them with nuclear weapons if necessary). North Korea does. China has them. I wouldn't see it as a problem if Japan had nuclear weapons capability - in fact, I would see it as further stabilizing the region, if anything.

Doesn't matter anyway, they don't want them.

[rainmaker]

Let's conclude this. Asian countries doesn't want Japan to have army. US government doesn't want to arm Japan. Hey, even Japanese themselves doesn't want themselves to be armed. Only one Floridian living in Miami, who happened to living in Japan for two years, now knows where the world is heading to with help of anwers.com. Now, he claims everyone that Japan has to be armed. Rest of us must be thoughtless, or vise versa ???



And I don't seriously believe that Japan has any intentions of developing nuclear weapons. South Korea did at one point. The US convinced them otherwise (by agreeing to defend them with nuclear weapons if necessary). North Korea does. China has them. I wouldn't see it as a problem if Japan had nuclear weapons capability - in fact, I would see it as further stabilizing the region, if anything.

Doesn't matter anyway, they don't want them.

[Yaiba]

Maybe that was a little bit off topic , but my point is to tell
people not believe everything that Americans say.
USA is exaggerating chinese millitary power so he could
launch more military action in Asia under the name of
" Stablize peace and Restore order , Bring democracy and
freedom to the Asian people''.

*****

The reason why we ''hate'' the Japanese isvery simple.
Its rapidly growth of military spending and its plan to dominate
Asia by its will.
Gathering from all your pro-China posts, you seem to be someone that believes everything that the Chinese government says, without question or reasoning, so how could you set an example to everyone else when you tell them to not believe everything that the American government says? You go on to say that the US is exaggerating the scale of China's military capabilities... well, I'm afraid you're exaggerating the scale of Japan's military and its so-called "aggression" so you're being somewhat hypocritical, aren't you?

In response to your second quote (above), where is your source of information? From China?


Chinese millitary power isn't as powerful as many people
thought. Most of its airforce is still back in 70s.
Although China claims she has the 3rd Biggest airforce
in the world , but mostly consiste Chinese modified versions
of Mig-21s. The newones are just only Su-27sk and Su-30MK II
series.
OK... China's military arsenal may not be as strong as what some people might think (I don't necessarily agree with you though) but that doesn't mean that its military isn't powerful. The entire world saw how powerful the Chinese are when they joined the Korean War and pushed the American-led UN forces back to the 38th Parallel (present-day border between the two Koreas)... it was said that "a sea of Red soldiers" charged from the border of China and halted the advancing UN forces. The Chinese were ill-equipped but their large numbers was what changed the outcome of that war.

As you can see, Japan needs to rely on upgrading its technological military capabilities to compensate for their much smaller military size in order to maintain a self defence force.


I am a normal Chinese teen , I am not a ultra-nationalist.
If you ever go to any Chinese high schools , You will see
people with even more radical ideas. I am one of those
''peaceful co-exitence'' people.
Have you seen the protest that was going on in China
a month ago? Those people wante to complete destroy
Japan ....I just want to Japan to tear down its war-criminal
shrine and teach their kids like the germans do right now.
I am no radical Kid , I guess you won't understand since
we were brought up differently.
If you really are a "peaceful, co-existent" type of person then why do you want to meddle in Japan's domestic affairs? What right do you have in telling Japanese on how they should commemorate their war-dead and how they should teach their children about their history when you have, on countless occasions on this forum, said that the issues of Taiwan and Tibet are up to the will of the Chinese people and not anyone else? That's double-standards.


I am planning to go to one of local Canadian university .
The department I will be going would be International
relations or international relations.. After that , If I am good enough .
I will be returing to China and hopefully I could coninue my
education at China for further development. Maybe I would like
to Join the Army or Be a part of the government.
Thx for asking.
Issac... you're only 16 (I think) so I hope you can learn to question and examine every aspect of an issue and be a little more independent with your thoughts, rather than becoming just another mouth-piece for a self-interest group. Otherwise, you could very well end up in a propaganda bereau...

[rainmaker]

I like answers.com too !! Isn't it great ??


Rainmaker,

I liked it better when you were just quoting Answers.com.

[Yaiba]

Thanks for your post, KevinF.


In principle, I would love to agree with you, Yaiba. As a matter of princple, the fewer the nations with a capacity to destroy the better... however, this neglects the current geopolitical situation in Asia. It would seem that you and I both agree that China poses a threat to the stability of the region. In addition, the threat of North Korean silliness can easily steal the headlines any given day of the week. South Korean and North Korean ships routinely exchange fire and the fragile cease fire has errupted into a number of incidents across the decades.

The argument is simple: why shouldn't a peaceful nation (possible the only nation in Asia to maintain peace for the last 60 years) be denied the fundamental national rights of a standing army?
Without trying to sound disrespectful, I don't think it's necessary for Japan to change its constitution so that it can resume resolving international conflicts by unilateral military force. The current constitution allows the country of Japan with a self defence force to protect itself from foreign military hostilities and I think this is quite sufficient.


Further, as the UN continues to ask Japan to play a more active role in international peace-keeping efforts, which by definition, require deployment of military forces, Japan may have to face a change in the constitution or be unable to legally meet U.N. calls for assistance.
I think Japan has amended its constitution so that its forces can serve on UN peace-keeping missions (ie missions to maintain order and stability) but it has yet to alter it to the point where Japan can take part in multilateral military missions under the authorisation of the UN and engage in combat on foreign soil. I think this is what most other countries want Japan to adopt and thus play a more significant role in international affairs. However, as I said earlier, the sending of military engineers to Iraq by the Japanese government was hotly opposed by many there and the memories of WW2 and the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still quite raw in the minds of the Japanese population.

[ISSAC RU]

For Yiba :

1 , Regards to the Chinese Millitary.

War-fare has changed so much since the Korean War.
You can't win a war with mass man power now ways and
regular solider to solider combat won't exist anymore. Nowdays
everything is about ''Pointy-strike'' . High-tech warfare . I am sure
you know that better than I do , what I am trying to explain
is all the weapons that the chinese are trying to build are self-defense.
When you have a country in the world where they can strike any parts
of the world in 90 minutes , you gotta have some weapons to defend
yourself. China does not yet have the capacity to invade a country
in the region nor post threat to the region.
Hint : China is a big country , we need more troops to defend our coutry
We are not some small countries like Belgium or Sweden...You can
not compare those countries with us and say China holds too much power.

2 , The USA policy in Asia.

Please look at the map in Asia. USA has bases in Phillipines , South Korea
and Japan. Can you see a circle surrouding China just by that Base link?
Their 7th Fleet has to power to completely demolish any country's navy
in the region, why would they still have so many bases? Recent news ,
USA lauched its F-117 fighters into South Korean base. They say thats
because the threat of North Korea , but really . That is like a bully came
over beat a kid over infront of the other kids to demonstrates his power.
The China that Americans want to see is a broken China , A China broken
into pieces .
Thats why they are so eager to push American democracy in the world.
" Manifesto Denstiny '' is a cover-up for the New American World Domination
plan.

[Yaiba]

Issac,

1. In regards to China's military.

Of course, China is entitled to build up its military for self defence purposes... just as Japan is entitled to upgrading and maintaining its own self defence force. I wasn't saying that China has aspirations for invading other countries in East Asia but they do have the capabilities to pose a threat in the future (although I do believe that the current Chinese government would be reluctant to get into any war with the West at a stage when they're developing their economy). The difference with Japan is that they can't pose a threat to anyone as their constitution prohibits the use of military force to resolve international disputes.

2. The US policy in Asia.

Yes, I agree that the presence of US bases in East Asia is a concern (especially with the Bush Administration's hardline stance on North Korea) but I doubt the US will resort to war (ie attack first) as it did in Afghanistan and Iraq because a war with China or North Korea will certainly not guarantee them success and the cost to their economy would be crippling (the Iraq War is a good example). You have to understand that the US military is only in the region to maintain order and security for its economical interests, not to start a war as you seemed to imply.

[KhawMengLee]

Issac,

2. The US policy in Asia.

Yes, I agree that the presence of US bases in East Asia is a concern (especially with the Bush Administration's hardline stance on North Korea) but I doubt the US will resort to war (ie attack first) as it did in Afghanistan and Iraq because a war with China or North Korea will certainly not guarantee them success and the cost to their economy would be crippling (the Iraq War is a good example). You have to understand that the US military is only in the region to maintain order and security for its economical interests, not to start a war as you seemed to imply.

Not to mention a war with China and North korea could mean nuclear arms entering the picture...in which case we all lose and become ash.

[samurai999]

I thought most of those electronics are made in China anyway... Isn't it ???

No thats not what i meant. Well for an ultranationalist, you'd want "pure" items. Chinese made from Chinese company. These are chinese made from Japanese company.

Tim

[samurai999]

Issac,
I'm sorry, but you had me in stiches by the time I read the part about "peaceful-coexistence." I love how the "peaceful coexistence" philosophy you subscribe gells with your selection of an email address and your desire to be in the Chinese army. Maybe you will get to practice tank maneuvors on unarmed students? Or maybe you will get the chance to pistol whip monks in Tibet? Naaaa... I know your heart is set on being the first off the landing ship on the beaches in Taiwan, right?


Yup... Well Issac, you have led me to believe through your posts that you are an ultranationalist. Having pride in ones country is one thing. Believing that practically everybodys wrong except for the Chinese gov't is another. Your hippocritical statements show that. You say you believe in peaceful coexistence and only a peace loving student and after you say that you want to destroy Yasukuni jinjya (in which not only WW2 veterans are buried, but warriors of milleniums past) and equate Osama bin Laden to the Dalai lama. Real peaceful... Its radical extremist people like you that stubbornly stick to your own side of the story as "the only correct thing" that make this world sick, cause war and end lives.

As you are still 16 yrs old.. You still have a LOT of growing up to do..

Tim

[rainmaker]

Issac,

I have to give you a credit for some of argument you are making... But there are something that I disagree with.

China does not yet have the capacity to invade a country
in the region nor post threat to the region.
=> Yes, they do have capacity to attack surrounding countries, including Korea, Taiwa, Japan and south east Asia.

Hint : China is a big country , we need more troops to defend our coutry
We are not some small countries like Belgium or Sweden...You can
not compare those countries with us and say China holds too much power.

=> Why do others want China to have more power ? I don't think any other countries except China itself, does not want China to have more power. I guess there are two reasons why China want to have more power.
1) Protect against Russia and US
2) Pressure to surrounding Asian countries. Will stronger China benefit other Asian countries ? No.

2 , The USA policy in Asia.

Please look at the map in Asia. USA has bases in Phillipines , South Korea
and Japan. Can you see a circle surrouding China just by that Base link?
=> Just like history of Japan, China also have history of attacking other countries, inclduing Korean war. That was 50 years ago and they are still communist. Also threatening to attack Taiwan wouldn't help.

I also have to make a comment that I am not happy with N. Korea's nuclear standoff situation. It is not ony threat to Asian countries, but also threat to other countries as they, historically, have close ties with international terrorists.

[KevinF]

Rainmaker,

In response to your post above (I liked your last one, by the way), you wrote:


et's conclude this. Asian countries doesn't want Japan to have army. US government doesn't want to arm Japan. Hey, even Japanese themselves doesn't want themselves to be armed. Only one Floridian living in Miami, who happened to living in Japan for two years, now knows where the world is heading to with help of anwers.com. Now, he claims everyone that Japan has to be armed. Rest of us must be thoughtless, or vise versa ???

1. Aside from China and Korea, I never hear of other nations with voices as loud speaking against Japanese constitutional reform or self defense...
2. The U.S. government actually does want to arm Japan. The current model of F16 was developed jointly with Japan. Note the afore mentioned sale of Aegis cruisers (the US Congress refused to sell them to Taiwan, who has been asking for them for years by the way...), and Bush's recent force reduction in South Korea may be continued to Japan as pressure mounts for Japan to pay for its own defense completely.
3. Japanese opinion about the constitution is split last I checked. Every time North Korea does somethning stupid (like firing a nuclear-capable missle over Japanese territory), the Japanese are (rightfully) scared and ponder the wisdom of Gen. McArthur's imposed constitutional Article 9. A vestage of an age gone by.
4. Yup, I am one Floridian, living in Miami. Most of my positions are fairly moderate, and should people understnad the situation, I think most would agree with me to some extent. You see, I don't advocate Japanese militarism - I advocate that Japan be allowed to take a normal place in the world without fear of having to deal with "historical" issues at *every* turn.
By the way, I was born in Germany, lived there for many years and studied in both high school and university there. My opinions are clouded by years of living in other countries (among them, admittedly, Japan), and years of listening to responses like those of Issac. I have been to Yasukuni Jinya, and didn't have a problem with it (as did the US President on his last visit to Japan), and I have also spoken with an older generation of war veterans here in Florida who still bear a hatred for Japan. I'd like to believe that my comments are motivated not by personal prejuidice either way, but rather by an attempt at an objective view of the current geopolitical situation and in particular, the instability in Asia.

Quite simply: a strong Japan costs US taxpayers less money, meaning they can withdraw troops and bases from Asia - which should make nationalists fearful of the US (like Issac) quite happy. It costs the US less money, which makes me happy as I am a US taxpayer. The Japanese military would buy mostly US technology and hardware, which further helps US companies. Most importantly, a strong(er) Japan would, in my humble opinion, help to stabilize the fragile situation in Asia.

Also, with regard the the last couple of posts: the US can't strike first in Korea. The number of heavy artillery pieces surrounding Seoul in the mountains has always been impossible to calculate and impossible to destroy. These artillery pieces are on mobile platforms inside the mountains and are quite secure. Any first strike against North Korea by ROKUS forces woud see the complete destruction of Seoul within a day. Most people don't understand that, and probably haven't taken a good look at a map and seen exactly where Seoul is in relation to the border and DMZ.

One more thing: don't you think its a bit of the pot calling the kettle black, Sungmin? A Korean claiming I'm biased on the issue because I lived in Japan? The blade has two sides, and it cuts you when your identity is revealed.

[rainmaker]

One more thing: don't you think its a bit of the pot calling the kettle black, Sungmin? A Korean claiming I'm biased on the issue because I lived in Japan? The blade has two sides, and it cuts you when your identity is revealed.

=> You are not revealing anything except my name. It should takes only 2 min. to figure out my identity. What took you so long ?? I am the only Korean in our dojo. In thread #59, I have already admit that I am Korean and I could be biased because of this. You are not just admitting that you are biased. Denial, dinail, denial.... two sides blade pointing at you.

By the way, I have to admit one more thing. It seems like US wants to strengthen their ties with Japan so that US can attack China more effectively. Well, one more way to sell more F-15 and F-16....

[KevinF]

As we should know from kendo, the only way to not get hit is to have good seme and a strong kamae.....

I guess you are really saying that Japan should be forced to only use gedan no kame, right? ... I just don't understand how people could do kendo and come to some of these conclusions....

"...so the US can attack China more effectively...?"

eh?

don't get Issac started again... you're going to get him all worked up.

[samurai999]

By the way, I have to admit one more thing. It seems like US wants to strengthen their ties with Japan so that US can attack China more effectively. Well, one more way to sell more F-15 and F-16....

Well China has more migs than Japan has F-15 and F-16s. Although a lot of the migs are the ones that flew during the Korean and vietnam war eras..

Tim

[rainmaker]

True that...


Well China has more migs than Japan has F-15 and F-16s. Although a lot of the migs are the ones that flew during the Korean and vietnam war eras..


Tim

[rainmaker]

They signed new security relationship on Feb 2005.

Read this Ministry of Foreign Affairs website,

http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/n-america/us/security/index.html..

or this..
http://www.heritage.org/Research/AsiaandthePacific/em960.cfm





As we should know from kendo, the only way to not get hit is to have good seme and a strong kamae.....

I guess you are really saying that Japan should be forced to only use gedan no kame, right? ... I just don't understand how people could do kendo and come to some of these conclusions....

"...so the US can attack China more effectively...?"

eh?

don't get Issac started again... you're going to get him all worked up.

[rainmaker]

Better yet, don't play Kendo. You don't even have to worry about seme and strong kamae...


As we should know from kendo, the only way to not get hit is to have good seme and a strong kamae.....

[bullet08]

very interesting..

i'm a korean. but i have rather different view in this whole situation..

as far as dokdo is concerned. who gives rat's ass? korea is holding it now. and korea will hold it until japan takes it away by killing every korean personnel on that piece of crappy rocks. who cares about historical facts? in 1905 japan declared that it's japanese.. then it was taken away from japan after WWII. as to who has legal rights to that rather sad piece of real estate.. i don't think anyone does. who's holding it now, will hold it until next time it changes hands. i seriously doubt japan will do anything to take any human casualty for those islets.

as to the idea of anyone possibly invading red china.. in any war.. invasion depends on grunts on the ground. china has enough man power to overwhelm any invading army. fire power is good, but fire power has limits. you could shoot, bomb and burn so many people before you get run over by sheer volume of human wave. anyone up for nuking red china? i seriously doubt that's an option.. even for bush.

as far as japan spending so much money on their military.. why isn't south korea doing it? why is south korea still depending on US for help? we yell 'yankee go home' every other day it seems.. but why is our politicians till holding on to the US for help? why is it that we are sending money to north.. and saying we understand why north is working on nuke, yet come kissing bush's ass for help?

as to any none korean, japanese, chinese picking side here and there on all these topics.. wait till you get your whole family raped, skinned alive, tongues pulled out, and cut off with rusty spoon and beheaded.. after that, you might begin to understand what some of koreans and chinese feel about japan.. or maybe some of you are so enlightened, and educated that even after that, you are willing to forgive and forget. *shrug* after all, i have no problem liking all things about japan. i just didn't forget what happened.

pete

[KevinF]

Pete,

Right on on the first three paragraphs. Seriously.

As for your last statement:


wait till you get your whole family raped, skinned alive, tongues pulled out, and cut off with rusty spoon and beheaded.. after that, you might begin to understand what some of koreans and chinese feel about japan.. or maybe some of you are so enlightened, and educated that even after that, you are willing to forgive and forget. *shrug* after all, i have no problem liking all things about japan. i just didn't forget what happened.

Let me see... my maternal grandmother gave brith to my mother in a field during an American bombing raid in WWII - my great-grandmother was killed in that raid. There were no military targets in the area - it was simply a part of the US bombing policy to break the back of the German people... my maternal grandfather died on the Russian front...after the war, the Russian army came through that area of what is today the Czech Republic and raped and killed ethnic Germans, even put many, like my grandmother into the same concentration camps the Germans had used during the war...

My paternal great-grandfather father fought against the Americans in the Spanish-American war, and my father was betrayed by the US government in the Bay of Pigs Invasion in Cuba.

I don't hate the United States, Russia or any of the countries responsible for the crimes against my own family. With this kind of a history, though, you would expect - were I to have your sentiments - that I should really be angry and still quite upset at these nations, right?

But you know what, I don't care. It's history. The world has changed in the meantime, and such anger is not productive. My grandmother, when she was alive, didn't care much either. My paternal grandparents, who both died as exiles from their own countries, tried to move on with their lives and make a new start in their adopted country, and while they hated the regime in Havana, they had no hatred for the country in general. Even my father quickly got over his "betrayal" at the Bay of Pigs and accepted a commission as an officer in the US armed forces.

People really should move on.

[bullet08]

But you know what, I don't care. It's history. The world has changed in the meantime, and such anger is not productive. My grandmother, when she was alive, didn't care much either. My paternal grandparents, who both died as exiles from their own countries, tried to move on with their lives and make a new start in their adopted country, and while they hated the regime in Havana, they had no hatred for the country in general. Even my father quickly got over his "betrayal" at the Bay of Pigs and accepted a commission as an officer in the US armed forces.

kevin,

i agree, people should move on. however, should not foget what has happened.

apparently, your family has bigger heart than most. definitely bigger than mine. i have no relations to any cubans, however, i'm still pissed over bay of pigs.

pete

[drizzt]

"Those who dont learn from the past are doomed to repeat it"

however i have to make an addition to that statement

"Those that havent learn, cause war"

The ones yelling about China and Japan's past and probable future arguments need to listen to that............

[ISSAC RU]

''Those who caused Wars would likely to do it again''

[drizzt]

''Those who caused Wars would likely to do it again''

guess what isaac.....its the little nut jobs like you calling for the downfall of other countries who cause them......

[ISSAC RU]

What about you ?

You think Americans are the only one who has feelings?
You people slaughter thousands of Arabs everyday just to
prove ur moronic idealogy ?
Your hands are covered with the blood of the victims all over
the world . Did I say this clear?

How many people you Americans have killed?
How many Arabs died under the Americans hand?
How many Japanese & Korean women you people have raped?
How many countries are totally ****ed up because of your people?
How many invasions you people have done?
How many Nuclear bombs you people have dropped?
How many assholes like you kept your country from moving forward?

Guess what , Mister.....You obviously have no clue . Because America
is so great he can do whatever he wants to do . So who cares about
how many Japanese women they raped? In the end , they are just
protecting '' freedom'' and " democracy'' .
Boys will be boyz .....

Did I mention this clear? Mr. Cowboy? The best job for you is to
site at your backyard enjoy your bbq and your CNN live coverage
of another tens of thousands arabs that was killed.

[kendo-boi]

Hahahaha!!! This thread is going crazy!:rolleyes:

PARTY!!!!!!

[ISSAC RU]

Rainmaker,

Japan , in my humble opinion, help to stabilize the fragile situation in Asia.

.

Why should we trust a nation who doens't even face their
own history?
Why it has to be Japan? WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY ?
I would rather deal the issue with the Americans than the
Japanese , simply because Nobody in Asian trust them .

[drizzt]

What about you ?


Your hands are covered with the blood of the victims all over
the world . Did I say this clear?

How many people you Americans have killed? How many political desenters have been executed in your country?


Did I mention this clear? Hey Isaac, i realise you probably speak english as a seond language, but try not to type like this is an AOL chat room. Im starting to wonder if your not some 14 year old kid from canada or the us, trying to troll through these forums........

Im realy not going to jump into this, because its like arguing with a five year old. hes right because he says he is, and he offers no logical reasoning behind his arguments. Isaac if you would be willing to debate LOGICALY with me, and you would be willing to type in a coherent manner, ill continue the discussion. But please, stop spewing Bovine excrememnt, The more you blow steam, the more i laugh.

[eXact]

hey stfu drizzts, your a loser trying to act all smart. Your from the KKK.

I saw here at this website: http://www.kkk.com !!


I saw you in one of their group photos..

[Berugijin]

hey stfu drizzts, your a loser trying to act all smart. Your from the KKK.

I saw here at this website: http://www.kkk.com !!


I saw you in one of their group photos..

For a 15 year old you are very insightful. *Aheum*

[KevinF]

Why it has to be Japan? WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY ?

Issac, I wouldn't trust anyone else in Asia.

Funny thing is, most of the rest of the world agrees with me. Many nations, including many in Asia, have agreed to support Japan in their desire to be a permananet member of the UN Security Council.

I think its ironic that the Chinese voices (like your pathetic one) are loudest now. China is threatening to veto the UN reform. Hmmmm....

You know, its quite amusing; I don't recall you saying anything that anyone has managed to agree with you on. :wink:

[drizzt]

Oh you wana play hardball eh.

Do you know the exact foundations of the KKK? The klu klux klan(the original....and the only real klan) was begun as a gentlemens orginization Headed by Nathan Bedford Forrest, ex-confederate calvary general. The only Vigilante acts the clan in its original incarnation commited, were typicaly against whites(most specificaly carpet baggers) whom were using the intatentavness of the union occupational forces. The clan was officialy disbanded a few years after it inception to to morons using the robes as reasons to commit violence against blacks.

The klan we see now are a bunch of imposters pretending to be Aryans(whom i might add were a middle eastern people, whom migrateted into the mesopotamian valley and were slaughtered by warring tribes), bashing homosexual(wich the man the idolize(hitler) was one), bashing Jews(wich hitler also hapend to be) and generaly making themselves appear more assanine than even you do! I might add that the New Klan was formed inWyoming i beleive(possibly farther east, i consider there history a bit to low to even be studied past the point of the official disbanment by forrest during reconstruction......after then it is simply a bunch of jackasses using a name to do evil that was not evil, nor do they have a right to it....)

I consider the inference I'm a klan member a combination of insulting and humorous. The klan is an insult to all whites, everywere. I also consider the use of its name to be a slight on my family(im distantly related to Forrest), as it sully's his name to use it.

Thanks you for proving yourself an idiot. Have you considered attempting to earn yourself a Darwin award? if not, please do us all a favor and do so.

I'm also fairly shure that is one of Isaacs other names. If so he has only proven my point that he is lying. If not, the person who posted under that name is even more of a jackass than he appears.

I will be happy to debate any of the historical points of this post in an intelligent, edjucated manner, as American Civil War history is going to be my primary area of study(after undergrad that is). I will not however debate them if your not willing to raise the level of your posts higher than my five year old cousin could acheive.

Thank you, i quite enjoyed Making you sound like more of an idiot :)

Please excuse any spelling errors, I was typing this quickly and on a wireless keyboard. It tends to skip letters when I type to fast.

[KevinF]

Issac,

I hope you are training hard in kendo. I'm sure your sword skills will come in handy when you are in the Chinese army and are asked to cut down some students protesting peacefully. Or maybe you can whack some misbehaving Tibetan monks?

[drizzt]

You know, its quite amusing; I don't recall you saying anything that anyone has managed to agree with you on. :wink:

I beleive that was his point. Im pretty shure he has no idea what hes talking about(right or wrong), he just likes to make trouble.

[drizzt]

Issac,

I hope you are training hard in kendo. I'm sure your sword skills will come in handy when you are in the Chinese army and are asked to cut down some students protesting peacefully. Or maybe you can whack some misbehaving Tibetan monks?

Thank you Kevin.....you got into more detail than i intended to LOL

[eXact]

Oh you wana play hardball eh.

Do you know the exact foundations of the KKK? The klu klux klan(the original....and the only real klan) was begun as a gentlemens orginization Headed by Nathan Bedford Forrest, ex-confederate calvary general. The only Vigilante acts the clan in its original incarnation commited, were typicaly against whites(most specificaly carpet baggers) whom were using the intatentavness of the union occupational forces. The clan was officialy disbanded a few years after it inception to to morons using the robes as reasons to commit violence against blacks.

The klan we see now are a bunch of imposters pretending to be Aryans(whom i might add were a middle eastern people, whom migrateted into the mesopotamian valley and were slaughtered by warring tribes), bashing homosexual(wich the man the idolize(hitler) was one), bashing Jews(wich hitler also hapend to be) and generaly making themselves appear more assanine than even you do! I might add that the New Klan was formed inWyoming i beleive(possibly farther east, i consider there history a bit to low to even be studied past the point of the official disbanment by forrest during reconstruction......after then it is simply a bunch of jackasses using a name to do evil that was not evil, nor do they have a right to it....)

I consider the inference I'm a klan member a combination of insulting and humorous. The klan is an insult to all whites, everywere. I also consider the use of its name to be a slight on my family(im distantly related to Forrest), as it sully's his name to use it.


wow!!! You must be from the KKK because you know so much shit about it!!
Hmmmm.....a KKK member huh?...Nice to meet you!!

[ISSAC RU]

Yes , Only America would allow such terroist activities going on
in their own country ,
Ex : KKK & Free Tibet hippie movement

[Yaiba]

Yes , Only America would allow such terroist activities going on
in their own country ,
Ex : KKK & Free Tibet hippie movement
What's wrong with the "Free Tibet" movement? I would hardly consider it a "terrorist" activity considering the Dalai Lama only endorses non-violent protests and they don't go hurling stones and other projectiles at any Chinese embassy, like the Chinese did to the Japanese embassy/consulates in China just recently. Furthermore, the Chinese government didn't step in to stop any of the violence and destruction in the first place (a sign of approval) so you could argue that China allows terrorist activities within their own country. Of course, not every Chinese person took part in those violent protests so I'm not going to judge the entire nation just because of a few "bad eggs".

[kanyil]

Ex : KKK & Free Tibet hippie movement

Sigh, I guess Ghandi should be put to the noose too. Wasn't that hippie all for freeing India through non-violent means back then? :eek:

[drizzt]

wow!!! You must be from the KKK because you know so much shit about it!!
Hmmmm.....a KKK member huh?...Nice to meet you!!


Have you realy sunk that low? Or are you just attempting to be an ass.

No i think your real problem is this, your simply....well to put it nicely to simple, to come up with an intelligent comment. Is uppose i must also be a medeival knight, because i know so much......well as you so rudely put it "shit" about it. Or maybe im a a Civil war captain of a navy vessel. I could easily write a five page essay on just the blockade of the south as an overview. I could actualy churn out five pages on hampton rhodes if given a chance for a little study.

Please continue to make an ass out of yourself, several of my friends are getting a great laugh out of all this.

[drizzt]

Yes , Only America would allow such terroist activities going on
in their own country ,
Ex : KKK & Free Tibet hippie movement

Yes a white supremisist group and and a group protesting for the release of a country are quite similar. I bow before your mighty Knowledge oh wise one. Teach us more of your broken English-chat room dialouge wisdom.

I have to say, both of you(i have a feeling its realy one of you) is making taunting so simple......

[nikolaj]

Oh you wana play hardball eh.

Do you know the exact foundations of the KKK? The klu klux klan(the original....and the only real klan) was begun as a gentlemens orginization Headed by Nathan Bedford Forrest, ex-confederate calvary general. The only Vigilante acts the clan in its original incarnation commited, were typicaly against whites(most specificaly carpet baggers) whom were using the intatentavness of the union occupational forces. The clan was officialy disbanded a few years after it inception to to morons using the robes as reasons to commit violence against blacks.

The klan we see now are a bunch of imposters pretending to be Aryans(whom i might add were a middle eastern people, whom migrateted into the mesopotamian valley and were slaughtered by warring tribes), bashing homosexual(wich the man the idolize(hitler) was one), bashing Jews(wich hitler also hapend to be) and generaly making themselves appear more assanine than even you do! I might add that the New Klan was formed inWyoming i beleive(possibly farther east, i consider there history a bit to low to even be studied past the point of the official disbanment by forrest during reconstruction......after then it is simply a bunch of jackasses using a name to do evil that was not evil, nor do they have a right to it....)

I consider the inference I'm a klan member a combination of insulting and humorous. The klan is an insult to all whites, everywere. I also consider the use of its name to be a slight on my family(im distantly related to Forrest), as it sully's his name to use it.

Thanks you for proving yourself an idiot. Have you considered attempting to earn yourself a Darwin award? if not, please do us all a favor and do so.

I'm also fairly shure that is one of Isaacs other names. If so he has only proven my point that he is lying. If not, the person who posted under that name is even more of a jackass than he appears.

I will be happy to debate any of the historical points of this post in an intelligent, edjucated manner, as American Civil War history is going to be my primary area of study(after undergrad that is). I will not however debate them if your not willing to raise the level of your posts higher than my five year old cousin could acheive.

Thank you, i quite enjoyed Making you sound like more of an idiot :)

Please excuse any spelling errors, I was typing this quickly and on a wireless keyboard. It tends to skip letters when I type to fast.

maybe this will sound stuîd because it's all I've learned from this gigantic post but,
Hitler was gay?

well, actually I also learned that Ghandi was a rascist-hippie that shouldn't ve been tolerated by the US.

[drizzt]

There is very good evidence he was. I actualy should have put was most likely gay. Especialy in his younger years(after he was arrested). That is one point of speculation why he waited until shortly beforehis death to be married.

That was most definetly not a stupid question :). As Ive said before, I'm a history major, so i will always take a chance to talk about history with someone :).

And oh yes, we all learned ghandi was a rascist hippie.........I must remember to tell my proffesors that when i get back to classes in the fall. That will be ground shattering research i assure you......

[bullet08]

could someone lock up this post?

i think we just ran out of things to talk about on dokdo.. now this post is running all over the place.. name calling, speculation on hitler's sexual orientation, origin of KKK, government sanctioned terrorism..

this is getting rather boring.

pete

[samurai999]

Yes , Only America would allow such terroist activities going on
in their own country ,


So at 16 yrs old (or so you say), you claim to know so much but know oh so very little. I bet that even though my ancestory is Japanese and that my grandfather fought with the americans against the imperialist Japanese army during WW2, you'd still want reparation money from us. Wouldn't you?

By the way, if you're hatin' on Japan that much, why do kendo? It was considered "war training" at one point for the Jp imperial army.

Tim

[kendo-boi]

So at 16 yrs old (or so you say), you claim to know so much but know oh so very little. I bet that even though my ancestory is Japanese and that my grandfather fought with the americans against the imperialist Japanese army during WW2, you'd still want reparation money from us. Wouldn't you?

By the way, if you're hatin' on Japan that much, why do kendo? It was considered "war training" at one point for the Jp imperial army.

Tim

What about the Koreans? A lot of them hate the japs...and they still do kendo..they hate the japs so much that they even renamed it kumdo and claimed it as their own...

[kanyil]

There is very good evidence he was. I actualy should have put was most likely gay. Especialy in his younger years(after he was arrested). That is one point of speculation why he waited until shortly beforehis death to be married...

Where does Eva Braun comes into the picture then? Was she only a "good" friend/cover, or was she something more? That's one heck of a friendship if she's willing to take a bullet in the head with Hitler.

[ISSAC RU]

So at 16 yrs old (or so you say), you claim to know so much but know oh so very little. I bet that even though my ancestory is Japanese and that my grandfather fought with the americans against the imperialist Japanese army during WW2, you'd still want reparation money from us. Wouldn't you?

By the way, if you're hatin' on Japan that much, why do kendo? It was considered "war training" at one point for the Jp imperial army.

Tim

Find one word in my post That clearly says I hate Japan and I hate
Japanese people.

Japan already stopped its reparation money to China because
China is hosting the 2008 game. Why? Jelousy......
Japanese Government thinks they can buy anything with money ,
well . The answer is clearly no...I see them buying their
way in the UN security council , but they are going to fail no
matter what.

All the Japanese were being sent to inter-camps during WWII ,
Your statement about your grandfather is false.

Btw , Age descrimination is just as serious as a racial descrimination .

[KhawMengLee]

Find one word in my post That clearly says I hate Japan and I hate
Japanese people.

Japan already stopped its reparation money to China because
China is hosting the 2008 game. Why? Jelousy......
Japanese Government thinks they can buy anything with money ,
well . The answer is clearly no...I see them buying their
way in the UN security council , but they are going to fail no
matter what.

All the Japanese were being sent to inter-camps during WWII ,
Your statement about your grandfather is false.

Btw , Age descrimination is just as serious as a racial descrimination .

ISSAC it is very possible for his grandfathe rto have served in the US armed forces. Many American born Japanese men served their country(USA) with honour during WWII in the European campaign(I don't know if any were mobilized into the Pacific war). Of course this sacrifice was pretty much slapped in the face when these men came home to find their families in concentration camps and all their property seized.

[KevinF]

Issac,

you prove "age discrimination" is a good thing!

By the way, that phrase doesn't apply to you - you are still a minor in your country and therefore have very limited rights (no sufferage, no alcohol rights, tobacco, etc.).

Just for your edification, the British Columbia Human Rights Code “prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, colour, ancestry, place of origin; political belief, religion; marital or family status; physical or mental disability; sex, sexual orientation; age; conviction on a criminal or summary conviction offence that is unrelated to the employment or intended employment”. With specific reference to age it states that individuals cannot be discriminated against for “mandatory retirement before age 65 and career potential judged by age”.

Besides which, stop whining. You are judged here on your words. And as they are not worthy of bathroom stalls, you are found to be wanting.

In fact, most on this board would probably favor corporal punishment in your case.

I read your posts and think to myself: "5000 years of history and this fecud turd is the best China can produce?" Issac, the reality is that you are a bane to your own nation, and your words only bring shame to its heritage.

P.S. - thank you Khaw. Yes, some Japanese only units in WWII were among the most highly decorated units in the American Armed Forces in any war or conflict. They served their adopted country in the face of descrimination.This was protrayed hollywood style in the character of Mr. Miyagi in "The Karate Kid."

[KhawMengLee]

P.S. - thank you Khaw. Yes, some Japanese only units in WWII were among the most highly decorated units in the American Armed Forces in any war or conflict. They served their adopted country in the face of descrimination.This was protrayed hollywood style in the character of Mr. Miyagi in "The Karate Kid."

Yep...and morse in the movie "Snow falling on Cedars". :smiley:

[drizzt]

Where does Eva Braun comes into the picture then? Was she only a "good" friend/cover, or was she something more? That's one heck of a friendship if she's willing to take a bullet in the head with Hitler.


As I said, earlier in life. The fact that he was married(and not until it was almost certain he would die......) does not mean he was not a homosexual. I know of a couple of cases Ive personaly seen , were a man has married, had kids, and is completely in love with the woman, only to turn around years later and become gay. She did become his lover eventualy, but he was , in his youth, gay. That fact is supported by legitamit primary sources, however it cannot be shown as absolute proof(kinda hard to prove something he would have been horribly shamed of and made shure no record was kept.....most sources are scrounged from old collections and letters he had no direct control over). Its a relativley new idea, and is still being heavily discussed. So i say fact.....more like a well supported hypothesis, that i proscribe to.

[drizzt]

All the Japanese were being sent to inter-camps during WWII ,
Your statement about your grandfather is false.



When i finaly pulled a coherent statement out of that jumbled, i almost fellover. I sincerly hope your joking, and not THAT ignorant of history. Actualy alot of japanese units served primarily in Europe to avoid friendly fire situations, and were highly decorated all through the european theatres.

samurai999- What unit did your grandfather serve with? And what was his primary duty station? Sorry to sidetrack, but i enjoy this kind of thing(gathering information.....not arguing with an incoherently rambling person )......

[DanDan]

What about the Koreans? A lot of them hate the japs...and they still do kendo..they hate the japs so much that they even renamed it kumdo and claimed it as their own...
actually we all know it's japanese and they only pronounce it kumdo because that's how the chinese characters are read in korean. same w/ aikido/hapgido and judo/yudo.

dok-doh is korean land and you know it!

and this thread has really wandered off topic...

[samurai999]

All the Japanese were being sent to inter-camps during WWII ,
Your statement about your grandfather is false.

Btw , Age descrimination is just as serious as a racial descrimination .

Age discrimination? Its called maturity.. of which there is none in your posts..

All the Japanese were sent to internment camps during WW2 so you are implying that they couldn't have fought? You must've never known about the fighting 442nd. One of, if not THE most DECORATED divisions in the US Army who saved Bob Dole's ass in nazi Germany. Lets see what about the Japanese speaking translators in the Pacific fighting for the US decoding secret messages being sent to and from Japanese personnel? You need another history lesson..
Come back and post once you actually learn something other than the one sided drivel you have been spewing for the length of this thread.

Tim

[samurai999]

samurai999- What unit did your grandfather serve with? And what was his primary duty station? Sorry to sidetrack, but i enjoy this kind of thing(gathering information.....not arguing with an incoherently rambling person )......

My father was actually in Japan when they were getting bombed by the US. He was only 7 yrs old at the time.. My grandfather died when I was only 4 yrs old so i rarely got to talk to him. However, my father told me many stories about him. He told me that he was in a special unit that intercepted Japanese messages and cracked Japanese code words so the US can get the drop on the Japanese army. He didn't get his degree from UCLA for nothing. haha

Tim

[drizzt]

ah i know what he was doing......Most likely stationed in Hawaii?

[ISSAC RU]

Japanese Spy penetrated into US army.

[KhawMengLee]

Japanese Spy penetrated into US army.

ISSAC that being rude.

[samurai999]

[QUOTE=ISSAC RU]Find one word in my post That clearly says I hate Japan and I hate
Japanese people.
[\QUOTE]
"Have you seen the protest that was going on in China
a month ago? Those people wante to complete destroy
Japan ....I just want to Japan to tear down its war-criminal
shrine and teach their kids like the germans do right now.
I am no radical Kid , I guess you won't understand since
we were brought up differently."

"Japan is a very scary country . Its military budget is 2nd in the World.
Right after U.S.A.
Stop Japanese aggression before it is too late."

You don't have to say the word "hate" to be a hater. Maybe you're right(for once).. You don't hate.. You are paranoid which is almost as bad. Yasukuni jinjya is a monument to all war dead.. not just the WW2 vets. I have an omamori from that shrine and it is still working fine. (no accidents)

[QUOTE=ISSAC RU]
Japan already stopped its reparation money to China because
China is hosting the 2008 game. Why? Jelousy......
Japanese Government thinks they can buy anything with money ,
well . The answer is clearly no...I see them buying their
way in the UN security council , but they are going to fail no
matter what.
[\QUOTE]

Hoooold on.. You say that they should tear down the shrine and educate their children. Educating the children and updating the history books is what I agree with. But then you imply that China should get paid money. Then you say that Japan thinks that they can pay anybody off with money when they stop? Well.. Where do you want this monetary support to end? Please make up your mind. Well for one thing, it's NOT coming from my family.

Tim

[samurai999]

ah i know what he was doing......Most likely stationed in Hawaii?

quite possibly.

Tim

[ISSAC RU]

[QUOTE=ISSAC RU]Find one word in my post That clearly says I hate Japan and I hate
Japanese people.
[\QUOTE]
"Have you seen the protest that was going on in China
a month ago? Those people wante to complete destroy
Japan ....I just want to Japan to tear down its war-criminal
shrine and teach their kids like the germans do right now.
I am no radical Kid , I guess you won't understand since
we were brought up differently."

"Japan is a very scary country . Its military budget is 2nd in the World.
Right after U.S.A.
Stop Japanese aggression before it is too late."

You don't have to say the word "hate" to be a hater. Maybe you're right(for once).. You don't hate.. You are paranoid which is almost as bad. Yasukuni jinjya is a monument to all war dead.. not just the WW2 vets. I have an omamori from that shrine and it is still working fine. (no accidents)

[QUOTE=ISSAC RU]
Japan already stopped its reparation money to China because
China is hosting the 2008 game. Why? Jelousy......
Japanese Government thinks they can buy anything with money ,
well . The answer is clearly no...I see them buying their
way in the UN security council , but they are going to fail no
matter what.
[\QUOTE]

Hoooold on.. You say that they should tear down the shrine and educate their children. Educating the children and updating the history books is what I agree with. But then you imply that China should get paid money. Then you say that Japan thinks that they can pay anybody off with money when they stop? Well.. Where do you want this monetary support to end? Please make up your mind. Well for one thing, it's NOT coming from my family.

Tim

The Shrine was built around 1860s.
Yasukuni Shrine consists 83% of war-deads from WWII .
( Ex: TOJO )
Rest of them are from Other Japanese War in the late 19 and early
20th century.
Tell me , during that time. All the Wars that Japan has been through
are invasions.
Big wars such as :
1895 - Sino-Japanese War - Direct invasion to Korea.
SAme year : Russo-Japanese War , fought on China. Winner gets
Port Arther. = Invasion , occupation.
1900 - 1945 , Occupation through out Korea.
1931- Invade Manchuria. Occupation throught out Manchuria.
( There are planty small ones that I don't want to mention, simply
too many of them )

So now , Yasukuni Shrine = Hall of fame for the nazi criminals.

Do you think the Europeans are going to be happy if the German
chancellor deicide to build a fall of fame for nazi crimnials and pay
visite to them every year?

[drizzt]

quite possibly.

Tim

if i have to make a bet he worked on Ultra(i beleive ultra is the pacific code breaker....i get the different code machines confused). That was cutting edge work on some of the earliest computers in the world . my Great uncle was there as a punch card hole cleaner for a while(he couldnt type......was missing one finger), until his ship made it back from a cruise.

[KevinF]

That's cool - I want a omamori from Yasukuni jinja!:smiley: I didn't get one when I went and started collecting omamori after that.

[samurai999]

My mom got a Koutsuuanzen ("traffic safety") one for me (that needs to get renewed). It helped me avoid accidents but not tickets. LOL

Tim

[samurai999]

The Shrine was built around 1860s.
Yasukuni Shrine consists 83% of war-deads from WWII .

So now , Yasukuni Shrine = Hall of fame for the nazi criminals.

Do you think the Europeans are going to be happy if the German
chancellor deicide to build a fall of fame for nazi crimnials and pay
visite to them every year?

Well this is totally wrong.. Why? The Japanese didn't build yasukuni jinjya for the purpose to put to rest "nazi criminals" as you so eloquently put it. As you can see from the facts you posted. 83% are war deads.. Now think about this.. How many do you think out of that participated in the Rape of Nanking and the Bataan Death marches? From what I know, a lot of them are war dead from other battles in the pacific (have you heard of Iwo Jima by chance?). Most of those soldiers were put on the front lines to defend that island. Could they have come from China or Korea? Maybe, but that doesn't automatically make ALL of them war criminals like you say they are.

Next, what about the other 17%? since the shrine was built in the mid 1800s, there couldn't have been war criminals at that time, right? I know that out of that 17%, all of them were samurai or monks. Nope... No nazi war criminals here. So now, logically, looking at your formula, Yasukuni Jinjya can't equal hall of fame for nazi war criminals, can it?

Who here agrees with me in saying that ISSAC (or is it ISAAC?) needs a revised history lesson and a lesson that teaches him not jump to conclusions.

Tim

[samurai999]

if i have to make a bet he worked on Ultra(i beleive ultra is the pacific code breaker....i get the different code machines confused). That was cutting edge work on some of the earliest computers in the world . my Great uncle was there as a punch card hole cleaner for a while(he couldnt type......was missing one finger), until his ship made it back from a cruise.

Nice.. As for me, it sorta reminds me of the "windtalkers" movie but in reverse. The american indians talked in their own tongue to encrypt US messages while my grandfather used his tongue to decrypt Japanese messages.

Tim

[ISSAC RU]

Well this is totally wrong.. Why? The Japanese didn't build yasukuni jinjya for the purpose to put to rest "nazi criminals" as you so eloquently put it. As you can see from the facts you posted. 83% are war deads.. Now think about this.. How many do you think out of that participated in the Rape of Nanking and the Bataan Death marches? From what I know, a lot of them are war dead from other battles in the pacific (have you heard of Iwo Jima by chance?). Most of those soldiers were put on the front lines to defend that island. Could they have come from China or Korea? Maybe, but that doesn't automatically make ALL of them war criminals like you say they are.

Next, what about the other 17%? since the shrine was built in the mid 1800s, there couldn't have been war criminals at that time, right? I know that out of that 17%, all of them were samurai or monks. Nope... No nazi war criminals here. So now, logically, looking at your formula, Yasukuni Jinjya can't equal hall of fame for nazi war criminals, can it?

Who here agrees with me in saying that ISSAC (or is it ISAAC?) needs a revised history lesson and a lesson that teaches him not jump to conclusions.

Tim

1. If the Germans moved some all their Class-A criminals into a Musuem and
call it the w/e they want to call it . Does that make sense?
In the Shrine , there are 13 Class-A Japanese War-Criminals. They were
moved into the shrine during the late 70s. Why? Why the hell in the world
They want to move those Class-A war-criminals into a national shrine?
What is the purpose? If I move Hitler into some German place and make
the chancellor of Germany to visite that place everyyear? Do you think the
people are going to be pleased?

2. Pacific War , Who needs a History lesson?
Pacific War was started because of the Japanese Invasion into the Southeast
Asia. Japanese were defending Iwo Jima islands because they want to
susbstain their country and continue the War. Japan brutally occupied all
the countries in the southeast. Do you think Japan has the right to occupy
those countries? Japan has the right to invade other countries , but other
countries do not have to the right to strike back in order to achieve the regional peace?

3. Rape of NanJing.
Do you have any ideas how many Japanese troops were at China at that time? Nearly 2.3 Million.
Japanese casuatiles ( Army )in WWII is some 2 million people. We assume
1 Million dead in the pacific war. There is still 1 million left , where did they go? China and Korea. Brutally killling and occupations are the right thing?
And those murders should have the respect they don't deserve? I don't
think so .

4. Rest of the 17% , No samurais or Monk .
Samurais system was abolished at the Meiji Reform which is before the
constrcution of the shrine. Maybe they put some in there , but the people
who mainly made up of this 17% are criminals from:
Russo-Japanese War
Sino-Japanese War
Korean Occupation
Machurian Occupation
Taiwanese Occupation.

Etc.......


You need a history or I need one?
Do you think its fair for the asian people to see Class-A war-criminals
who brutally raped 50 millions of their people sitting in a shrine and classfiled
as Japan's Heros?

[h2o]

Hello folks, last time I checked, WW2 ended more than 50 years ago. I really don't see why we need to start it again. :rolleyes:

As for statues and shrines... We have plenty of statues of old kings that have commanded armies that probably did some very evil things to our enemies population. I've never heard of a dane, norwegian or german complaining and telling us to put them down... :rolleyes:

[samurai999]

[QUOTE=ISSAC RU]1. If the Germans moved some all their Class-A criminals into a Musuem and
call it the w/e they want to call it . Does that make sense?
In the Shrine , there are 13 Class-A Japanese War-Criminals. They were
moved into the shrine during the late 70s. Why? Why the hell in the world
They want to move those Class-A war-criminals into a national shrine?
What is the purpose? If I move Hitler into some German place and make
the chancellor of Germany to visite that place everyyear? Do you think the
people are going to be pleased?

2. Pacific War , Who needs a History lesson?
Pacific War was started because of the Japanese Invasion into the Southeast
Asia. Japanese were defending Iwo Jima islands because they want to
susbstain their country and continue the War. Japan brutally occupied all
the countries in the southeast. Do you think Japan has the right to occupy
those countries? Japan has the right to invade other countries , but other
countries do not have to the right to strike back in order to achieve the regional peace?

3. Rape of NanJing.
Do you have any ideas how many Japanese troops were at China at that time? Nearly 2.3 Million.
Japanese casuatiles ( Army )in WWII is some 2 million people. We assume
1 Million dead in the pacific war. There is still 1 million left , where did they go? China and Korea. Brutally killling and occupations are the right thing?
And those murders should have the respect they don't deserve? I don't
think so .

4. Rest of the 17% , No samurais or Monk .
Samurais system was abolished at the Meiji Reform which is before the
constrcution of the shrine. Maybe they put some in there , but the people
who mainly made up of this 17% are criminals from:
Russo-Japanese War
Sino-Japanese War
Korean Occupation
Machurian Occupation
Taiwanese Occupation.
[\QUOTE]

Of all the stuff I posted right or wrong, you missed my point. I'm not denying that there are war criminals enshrined or buried in the shrine nor am i denying that Japans invasions were wrong. Its just that not everybody was a war criminal as you make them out to be. Lets repeat.. NOT EVERYBODY WAS A WAR CRIMINAL AS YOU MAKE THEM OUT TO BE...

For sake of argument, My mom was living in Japan during WW2. does that make her a criminal? at 2 yrs old? What about my dad who was living in Japan at the time of WW2 and was 7 yrs old.. Does that make him a criminal as well? What about my grandmom who was taking care of my dad at that time.. Do you accuse her of killing women and children too?

You still don't understand that some of these soldiers weren't war criminals though you do make them all out to be war criminals by association. That is almost just as wrong as the crimes the bad soldiers comitted.

Maybe you are right.. I do need a history lesson.. I did go off topic from what I wanted to say.. But, while i'm willing to look at things from a both sides and willing to learn, you continue to post one-sided views and continue to irritate people...

Tim

[drizzt]

You have to stop letting him goad you. He's already proven his ignorance....just let him ramble on and point out corrections calmly(and abit assanine when possible)

[KevinF]

Hey Issac,

Wasn't Chairman Mao's "Great leap Forward" responsible for at least 20 million dead? The dead were Chinese. His own people. Pretty gruesome. Tell you what, tear down the mounuments to Mao, and we'll reconsider the Yasukuni issue.

Until then... tell China to shut up. :vampire:

[ISSAC RU]

Many American presidents are responsible for the death
of millions Arabs in the middle east. They are also responsible
for the invasion of Vietnam , which killed another 2 million
vietnamese.
Support for the Iraq and Iran War , support Saddam with
Bio and chemical weapons , killed another half million people.
American Invasion to Iraq , how many people have died since
operation Iraqi freedom started? I think you know better ,

So ...who should shut up ?

[Lloromannic]

So ...who should shut up ?

You





...........................

[rainmaker]

Yup, all violent people should should shut up. includes, kendokas, senseis, sampais....

[KevinF]

Wait, no seriously, I want to hear this:

When did the U.S. invade Vietnam?

[h2o]

To quote Monty Python and the Holy Grail:
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion, so let's not argue about who killed who..."

[drizzt]

Japanese Spy penetrated into US army.

i didnt even see this . God, Isaac, do they not teach you a term called "tact" or "politness" in school in China? Even a 5 or 6 year old kid would now better than that(i didnt see this at first btw). Son, you need to ome back with a little more knowledge of real history, not this propogandist crap your spewing. Your dealing with at least one person in this fight thats a history major at a very prestigious college. Im not shure on the status of the edjucation levels of the other people your calling idiots, but i guarantee from the way they talk they are not morons. You need to learn to get your history from a source other than CNN news.

[drizzt]

Many American presidents are responsible for the death
of millions Arabs in the middle east. They are also responsible
for the invasion of Vietnam , which killed another 2 million
vietnamese.


So ...who should shut up ?


Hmmmm. My Vietnam history is a bit rusty but lemme see if i can remember this correctly. The South Vietnamese government asked the US to send advisors to S. Vietnam to help prepare its military to keep the north from invading them. When Northern agression began, the south asked for troops from the US. We obliged, and the Vietnam conflict began.

In reality the Single BIGGEST factor in allowing US invlolvment, was the firing on of a US warship in the gulf of Tonkin. The ship was there at the request of the South Vietnamese government. In case your ignorant of international law, attacking a warship of a soveigrn nation at sea is considered an act of war, and would have been grounds for an immedeate US attack on North Vietnam.

As I said, you need to stop getting your history from CNN an sit down with a good book and read for a little while.

[Andou]

Many American presidents are responsible for the death
of millions Arabs in the middle east. They are also responsible
for the invasion of Vietnam , which killed another 2 million
vietnamese.


So ...who should shut up ?


As drizzt said, they sent advisors. However, Nix did invade Cambodia...maybe that's what you're thinking of? Dunno...just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

[KevinF]

Funny thing is, I had this conversation with a guy from Hanoi yesterday (after all these postings, I was kind of curious about what the rest of Asia thinks about Japan, China and the whole situation). I asked him what most Vietnamese thought of China. He said this:

"Chinese are smart. But they try to get everything by using tricks."

That raised my eyebrows, but I wasn't really that surprised. Of course, I then asked him about what most Vietnamese think of Japan. He replied to my question:

"Japanese are smarter. They get what they want through hard work. But they are freaks."

It thought it was actually a fair view, but I did ask further about about the "freaks" bit, to which he replied that the Japanese will "try anything." Not necessarily a bad comment - kind of funny really. Anyway, he also informed me that Vietnamese Japan relations are very good right now, with a lot of trade in the energy industry going on.

It's kind of interesting to note that although Issac is talking about the U.S. invlovement in Vietnam (which he called an "invasion") and making sweeping statements like "Asia doesn't trust Japan," it seems important to note that 1. many Vietnamese don't trust China, 2. there is a healthy respect there for Japan, and 3. the U.S. and Vietnam have good relations currently (dipl. realtions established in 1995 and Bilateral Trade agreement in 2001).

Its funny, Vietnam doesn't really pressure the U.S. for apologies over the war and the U.S. doesn't pressure Vietnam for same. The two countries forge ahead with realtions that are mutually beneficial and have reached a historical balance.

Come to think of it, Japan doesn't pressure the US for apologies over the use of atomic weapons, and the U.S. never asked for an apology for Pearl Harbor or the Bataan Death March. Both nations recognize the past as such, and know that the present is built of the stronger and more recent history of friendship and multual gain.

owari

P.S.: Anyone who quotes George Santayana in response to this post is a moron.
P.P.S.: Wasn't it more like incursions into Cambodia? Not really an invasion - just operations. By the way, my old man got in trouble for calling artillery on Vietnamese units who has crossed the river which formed the border between Vietnam and Cambodia. Opps...

[rainmaker]

Let's blame French for Vietnam war.. When we got no one to blame, French is number 1 and Canada is number 2..

[KevinF]

Rainmaker,

you are soooo right! Cool - we agree on something. :)

[rainmaker]

Isaac,

You are 16 years old and not backing off against people who are twice older than you... Forget about right and wrong. You have spirit. I just don't want to kill it. Keep it up!! I have to give you an advice though. Do some research before you making statement. Most of people, including me, are not really good at it. With little bit of research and your spirit, it can be very good combination.

[drizzt]

Actualy much of the blame for the fighting lies with the extremely corrupted south vietnamese government, because they refused to honor a treaty that had been signed that would have brought a united vietnam. they were not willing to reunite unless they were in charge of everything, nor was the north willing to capitulate(wic is probably bette they didnt....in many ways the communist government is probably less corrupt). However they werent communists, wich was the primary reason the US allied with them. Another huge part of the blame goes to China and Russia(there you go Isaac, your saintly chinese government), for supplying the Communist North with weapons to help invade the south and force a reunion of the two parts of the country under a communist government. Theres so much finger pointing that can go on with Vietnam, by the time we finished , the whole world would have a little piece in it.

[drizzt]

Isaac,

You are 16 years old and not backing off against people who are twice older than you... Forget about right and wrong.

Beleive me, he has forgotten about right and wrong. I have absolutley no issue with him trying to square off against us. I do the same thing against people far my superior. I do however have a problem with the fact he acts like a 3 year old and is right "cause I said so".

[KhawMengLee]

Funny thing is, I had this conversation with a guy from Hanoi yesterday (after all these postings, I was kind of curious about what the rest of Asia thinks about Japan, China and the whole situation). I asked him what most Vietnamese thought of China. He said this:

"Chinese are smart. But they try to get everything by using tricks."

That raised my eyebrows, but I wasn't really that surprised. Of course, I then asked him about what most Vietnamese think of Japan. He replied to my question:

"Japanese are smarter. They get what they want through hard work. But they are freaks."

It thought it was actually a fair view, but I did ask further about about the "freaks" bit, to which he replied that the Japanese will "try anything." Not necessarily a bad comment - kind of funny really. Anyway, he also informed me that Vietnamese Japan relations are very good right now, with a lot of trade in the energy industry going on.

It's kind of interesting to note that although Issac is talking about the U.S. invlovement in Vietnam (which he called an "invasion") and making sweeping statements like "Asia doesn't trust Japan," it seems important to note that 1. many Vietnamese don't trust China, 2. there is a healthy respect there for Japan, and 3. the U.S. and Vietnam have good relations currently (dipl. realtions established in 1995 and Bilateral Trade agreement in 2001).

Its funny, Vietnam doesn't really pressure the U.S. for apologies over the war and the U.S. doesn't pressure Vietnam for same. The two countries forge ahead with realtions that are mutually beneficial and have reached a historical balance.

Come to think of it, Japan doesn't pressure the US for apologies over the use of atomic weapons, and the U.S. never asked for an apology for Pearl Harbor or the Bataan Death March. Both nations recognize the past as such, and know that the present is built of the stronger and more recent history of friendship and multual gain.

owari

P.S.: Anyone who quotes George Santayana in response to this post is a moron.
P.P.S.: Wasn't it more like incursions into Cambodia? Not really an invasion - just operations. By the way, my old man got in trouble for calling artillery on Vietnamese units who has crossed the river which formed the border between Vietnam and Cambodia. Opps...

There was a bit of animosity between the vietnamese(local population) and the chinese(the manchus). This stems back to the time of Vietnam being part of French Indo China. The French controlled all aspects of the local vietnamese economy. From an office clerk to commerce. The local vietnamese were only allowed to work as coolies or waiters. The Chinese were the 'local' ruling class and were often seen at the end as France's lackeys.

Many of the refugees who fled the communist controlled south at the war's end are ethnically chinese.

************************************************** *****

America's conduct in Vietnam was pretty sober, apart from incidents like My Lai, it wasn't part of US policy to kidnap women and force them into sexual slavery in field brothel or hold competitions to see how many ppl they could behead in a day. The US did not wage a terror campaign on civilians, they fought soldiers, so what is there to apologize for on the whole?

Japan asking for an apology for the 2 bombs? Hey, they started the war by bombing pearl harbour. You don't see Germany asking for an apology for WWII...tho' what happened at Dresden was pretty horrible.

What Japan did to the Koreans and Chinese is akin to what the Nazis did to the Jews...a very big difference compared to your two points.

[Yaiba]

America's conduct in Vietnam was pretty sober, apart from incidents like My Lai, it wasn't part of US policy to kidnap women and force them into sexual slavery in field brothel or hold competitions to see how many ppl they could behead in a day. The US did not wage a terror campaign on civilians, they fought soldiers, so what is there to apologize for on the whole?

Japan asking for an apology for the 2 bombs? Hey, they started the war by bombing pearl harbour. You don't see Germany asking for an apology for WWII...tho' what happened at Dresden was pretty horrible.

What Japan did to the Koreans and Chinese is akin to what the Nazis did to the Jews...a very big difference compared to your two points.
It's funny you say this (see bold writing in above quote). The reason why I say so is because Pearl Harbor was strictly a military target, whereas the US logistic for the H-bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was primarily all about displaying the power of their "new weapon" to the Japanese goverment and to force them to surrender... of course, the US achieved this but at the cost of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians' lives, including women and children's. Furthermore, the fire-bombings of Tokyo and other major cities could be considered as "terror campaigns" as the US targets were mostly indiscriminate and contained heavily populated civilian districts.

I can't understand it (especially on December 7) when some Americans try to justify the use of atomic weapons on Japan because of Pearl Harbor... it's quite sad really. Besides, the reason why Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in the hope of destroying the US Navy's capabilities in the Pacific was because Japan was "pushed" to do it... the US placed a complete fuel embargo on Japan in response to the Japanese presence/occupation in Manchuria and Japan felt threatened by it. (On a sidenote, I read somewhere that the British intercepted Japanese radio messages and were aware of the impending attack on Pearl Harbor but Winston Churchill didn't warn the Americans about it... most probably to get them to enter the war in Europe, which he was lobbying Washington to do at the time.)

If you look at the current North Korean crisis, the same thing is happening... the US is threatening embargos and pushing the North Koreans further into a corner... no wonder the South is concerned and calling for the US to be more diplomatic because they realise the North will most probably retaliate like the Japanese did in WW2 if it continues.

As for Germans, many have started to question their generally-accepted history about WW2 and the Holocaust. With people like Ernst Zundel (go to http://www.zundelsite.org (http://www.zundelsite.org/) or similarly do a Google search), Revisionism is picking up pace, especially in eastern Germany, and the far-right political groups are gaining more and more influence. Who knows, it may be a matter of time before Germans start asking for apologies from mostly the UK and France, which actually declared war on Germany and started WW2 in the first place.

Lastly (phew, this is a long post)... are people aware that there were widespread collaborations between the Chinese and Korean officials with the Japanese occupiers before 1945? I actually sympathise with many of the victims at the hands of the Japanese but I've read on the internet recently that Chinese and Korean textbooks are failing to highlight these so-called facts because it won't provide their governments with leverage when it comes to criticising the Japanese.

I hate blame games... *sigh*

[KhawMengLee]

It's funny you say this (see bold writing in above quote). The reason why I say so is because Pearl Harbor was strictly a military target, whereas the US logistic for the H-bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was primarily all about displaying the power of their "new weapon" to the Japanese goverment and to force them to surrender... of course, the US achieved this but at the cost of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians' lives, including women and children's. Furthermore, the fire-bombings of Tokyo and other major cities could be considered as "terror campaigns" as the US targets were mostly indiscriminate and contained heavily populated civilian districts.

I can't understand it (especially on December 7) when some Americans try to justify the use of atomic weapons on Japan because of Pearl Harbor... it's quite sad really. Besides, the reason why Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in the hope of destroying the US Navy's capabilities in the Pacific was because Japan was "pushed" to do it... the US placed a complete fuel embargo on Japan in response to the Japanese presence/occupation in Manchuria and Japan felt threatened by it. (On a sidenote, I read somewhere that the British intercepted Japanese radio messages and were aware of the impending attack on Pearl Harbor but Winston Churchill didn't warn the Americans about it... most probably to get them to enter the war in Europe, which he was lobbying Washington to do at the time.)

If you look at the current North Korean crisis, the same thing is happening... the US is threatening embargos and pushing the North Koreans further into a corner... no wonder the South is concerned and calling for the US to be more diplomatic because they realise the North will most probably retaliate like the Japanese did in WW2 if it continues.

As for Germans, many have started to question their generally-accepted history about WW2 and the Holocaust. With people like Ernst Zundel (go to http://www.zundelsite.org (http://www.zundelsite.org/) or similarly do a Google search), Revisionism is picking up pace, especially in eastern Germany, and the far-right political groups are gaining more and more influence. Who knows, it may be a matter of time before Germans start asking for apologies from mostly the UK and France, which actually declared war on Germany and started WW2 in the first place.

Lastly (phew, this is a long post)... are people aware that there were widespread collaborations between the Chinese and Korean officials with the Japanese occupiers before 1945? I actually sympathise with many of the victims at the hands of the Japanese but I've read on the internet recently that Chinese and Korean textbooks are failing to highlight these so-called facts because it won't provide their governments with leverage when it comes to criticising the Japanese.

I hate blame games... *sigh*

Yeah, a lot of people have called the Hbomb on Japan many things, from a cheap way to win to a demonstration of power to the russians. At the same time its argued that from the loss of American lives in the Pacific they decided they needed something to totally shock the enemy into submission.
Both sides make valid points but the outcome is still the same, it happened.

As for the colaborations...yep, it happened. Just like in most occupied countries...eg, France, Poland, etc...but when the day of liberation came, these colaborators got the short stick.

[ISSAC RU]

.

I can't understand it (especially on December 7) when some Americans try to justify the use of atomic weapons on Japan because of Pearl Harbor... it's quite sad really. Besides, the reason why Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in the hope of destroying the US Navy's capabilities in the Pacific was because Japan was "pushed" to do it... the US placed a complete fuel embargo on Japan in response to the Japanese presence/occupation in Manchuria and Japan felt threatened by it. (On a sidenote, I read somewhere that the British intercepted Japanese radio messages and were aware of the impending attack on Pearl Harbor but Winston Churchill didn't warn the Americans about it... most probably to get them to enter the war in Europe, which he was lobbying Washington to do at the time.)



So....Are you saying Japan was ''pushed to attack'' which makes them
the rightious one? ....
Japan invaded China and Korea because she was ''pushed'' to do it..
Japan has the right to invade other countries and kill people because she
was ''pushed''?

Funny...I feel the same . America invaded Iraq because American
feels ''threatened'' that someday Iraqi might bomb washington with their
WMD.

Wow.......America was really being ''pushed''.. I guess invading Iraq was
the right thing to do after all............

[KhawMengLee]

So....Are you saying Japan was ''pushed to attack'' which makes them
the rightious one? ....
Japan invaded China and Korea because she was ''pushed'' to do it..
Japan has the right to invade other countries and kill people because she
was ''pushed''?

Funny...I feel the same . America invaded Iraq because American
feels ''threatened'' that someday Iraqi might bomb washington with their
WMD.

Wow.......America was really being ''pushed''.. I guess invading Iraq was
the right thing to do after all............

Japan annexed Korea and Manchuria waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before Pearl Harbour. The atrocities at Nanking were captured by foriegn journalists who managed to smuggle out their photographs and stories to the world. It was this international outrage that played some part in the measures taken to 'pressure' japan to War with the US.

Many were already itching to step in and help China. For example, The Flying Tigers (http://www.flyingtigersavg.com/), went in before the War broke out to help fight the Japanese.

************************************************** ******

[Akai Bushi]

It all really comes down to colonialism. The western powers and Japan really didn't see China as anything other than resources and money. Japan was getting oil from the US and when the US cut off the oil supply Japan was in big trouble. They calculated that they had 6months or so left of oil for the Navy so basically Japan decide to go down with a fight. Then they attacked the US. The case of China and Korea they were just colonies for resources and exploitive capitalism. Japan had attacked China and taken Korea long before the embargo. This embargo though did push Japan to invade SE asia in hopes of getting new oil sources.

[Yaiba]

So....Are you saying Japan was ''pushed to attack'' which makes them
the rightious one? ....
Japan invaded China and Korea because she was ''pushed'' to do it..
Japan has the right to invade other countries and kill people because she
was ''pushed''?

Funny...I feel the same . America invaded Iraq because American
feels ''threatened'' that someday Iraqi might bomb washington with their
WMD.

Wow.......America was really being ''pushed''.. I guess invading Iraq was
the right thing to do after all............
Please, be a little more mature and don't jump to conclusions. I'll answer your questions one by one so you can understand (hopefully).

Yes, Japan was pushed to attack Pearl Harbor (ie the Americans) because the US placed an oil embargo and meddled in Japan's affairs. No, I'm not saying Japan is the righteous side; all I'm saying is that Japan simply responded to the actions of the US. I mean, do you really think Japan went into attacking Pearl Harbor just because it felt like it? If you do, you're crazy.

No, Japan was not "pushed" into invading China and Korea (besides, who would have pushed Japan anyway?). Yes, Japan probably had ambitions to build an empire like the Europeans had (the Japanese probably thought "if the Europeans can do it then why can't we?") but no, Japan did not have that right (nor should any other country for that matter) and the current Japanese are of that opinion, which is why they only have a self defence force. :rolleyes:

Errr... I don't know how the Iraq War came into this conversation but not once did I justify the Iraq War. But yes, the Americans were obviously compelled to going into war with Iraq for a reason. Whether it was WMD, oil, Israel... I don't know.

If you'd paid attention, you should have grasped this: Every human action happens for a reason. Thus, there is cause and effect.

[KevinF]

To me, the bottom line is: IMHO, I don't feel it necessary, at this point, for any nations invloved in WWII to be still issuing any apologies for any actions. I don't need to hear about Germany apologizing for the holocost, nor do I need to hear about Japan and the Daigakusatsu (Nanjing Incident). There is a disconnect between the governments, the people, the culture and morals of that time and the present.

I'm frankly fed up with Korea and China trying to stem Japan's rightful place in Asia, mostly because of their own ambitions, and not because of real fear or resentment for incidents over 60 years ago. The riots and demonstrations recently in Shanghai and around China are an example of this - a deliberate move by the government in Beijing to stir up anti-Japanese resentment.

Issac is a hater who plays the shell game when he discuss anything. If the argument is about China, he will complain about the US. When its about the US, he'll bitch about something else.

This thread was oriingally about Takeshima, and the debate on that is resolved to my satisfaction. If you want to takl about other islands, fine.

When will China give up bogus claims to the Spratley Islands?

[rainmaker]

Those who think Japan did their official appologies should read this article. It is written by MIT Phd... Very insightful article.

MIDDLE PERIOD, 1965-1989
JAPANESE REMEMBRANCE. Japanese remembrance remained unapologetic during this period. Japanese leaders occasionally issued statements about the past, which included halfhearted apologies. Foreign Minister Shiina Etsusaburo issued a weak apology in Seoul upon normalization of relations in 1965. Referring to no specific events, Shiina said Japan “felt deep regret and deep remorse” for the “unhappy phase” between the two countries.52 Subsequent statements given by Emperor Hirohito and Prime Minister Nakasone in 1984 similarly conveyed remorse but admitted no specific Japanese wrongdoing.53 Also during this period, other government officials made statements of denial. Cabinet members Fujio Masayuki (1986)54 and Okuno Seisuke (1988)55 made statements that provoked crises with Japan’s neighbors during this period, and led to their dismissal from their posts. In history education, discussion of the wartime past first expanded and then contracted during this period. In the 1970s, textbook coverage of the war and colonization began to increase.56 This trend provoked a counter-reaction in the 1980s as conservative politicians—regaining power in the Diet—sought to make Japanese education more patriotic.



MoE screening and revision of textbooks in this decade resulted in vaguer terminology being adopted. In response to international criticism, Tokyo adopted new textbook screening policies to promote greater admission,58 but textbook coverage of Japanese aggression and atrocities remained sparse. A conservative group angered by the conciliation of the Suzuki Administration in the 1982 textbook dispute wrote its own textbook; its approval by the MoE sparked a second diplomatic dispute over textbooks in 1986.

Japanese commemoration was unapologetic during the 1980s: it continued to ignore foreign victims, and began increasingly glorifying Japan’s war dead. In 1985, Nakasone Yasuhiro became the first Prime Minister to pay an official visit to the controversial Yasukuni Shrine.59 In response to regional criticism, Nakasone—and subsequent prime ministers in this period—did not visit the shrine again, but numerous cabinet members and Diet members continued to visit.



Overall Japanese remembrance in the 1965-1989 period remained unapologetic.

Remembrance of past Japanese aggression and atrocities did increase in frequency relative to the earlier period, but ranged between weak apologies to denial, with glorification of the war dead at the unapologetic extreme.

[rainmaker]

I am not trying to blame second or third generation of Japanese who got nothing to do with WW II. Sometime, people claiming that hey Japan did 18 apologies, isn't that enough ? Sometimes, number is not just enough..

=======================================

LATE PERIOD, 1990-2000S
JAPANESE REMEMBRANCE. Japanese remembrance of war and colonization evolved dramatically in this period. Tokyo began regularly issuing apologies—some of them quite remarkable. Numerous high-level leaders issued remorseful statements: Emperor Akihito and Prime Minister Kaifu (1989),81 and Prime Ministers Miyazawa (1992) and Murayama (1994 and ’95).82 The Socialist Party (members of the ruling coalition in 1995) attempted to pass a contrite
Diet Resolution that year, and passed a tepid statement.83 Far more remarkable were apologies issued by Hosokawa (1993) and Koizumi (2001), which included both detailed admission and remorse.84 Other apologies included substantive measures: the 1995 Murayama apology to the
sex slaves of the Imperial Army (accompanied by compensation and the establishment of an educational foundation),85 and the written apology by Prime Minister Obuchi (the 1998 Joint Communique with South Korea).86 Thus in this period Japan began regularly issuing numerous statements of apology, ranging from lukewarm to remarkably apologetic.

Japanese statements during this period were far from uniform. Reacting to Murayama’s contrite statements, cabinet members Nagano Shigeto and Sakurai Shin made statements of denial in 1994;87 other Japanese Cabinet Members and parliamentarians made similar statements in objection to Murayama’s 1995 apology.88 Angered by the Diet Resolution, Watanabe Michio, a former Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs, denied that Japan took over Korea through force in 1910.89 In the 1990s a distinct pattern emerged in which one leader’s apology triggered a statement by another leading politician that denied, justified, or glorified Japan’s past actions. Still, as argued above, Japanese statements of apology during this period increased relative to the earlier period.

Japanese education in this period reflects increased coverage of Japanese actions during the war. Discussion of the sex slaves, the Nanking Massacre, the Japanese colonization of Korea, and Korean slave labor now appears in textbooks. Coverage of Unit 731 (a Japanese Army unit that performed grotesque medical experiments on Chinese civilians and POWs) was
recently approved after a ruling in the Japanese courts. For many of these issues, coverage remains scanty; depending on the textbook, these issues might be omitted, mentioned vaguely, or presented in moderate detail.90 And certain Japanese actions during the war remain consistently omitted from textbooks, such as Japan’s strategic bombing of Chinese cities (which killed nearly 300,000 Chinese people), and biological warfare against Chinese citizens.91 A controversial textbook was also published during this period by a group who resented the 1996 legal ruling that permitted mention of the sex slaves in Japanese textbooks. MoE approval of this textbook (known as the “Fuso-sha” textbook after its publisher) caused a third textbook dispute in 2001. However, while Japanese textbooks in the later period do not present detailed discussions of Japan’s past, they do provide more thorough coverage of colonization and war relative to other periods.
Japanese commemoration in the late period remains unapologetic. Museums do not educate the public about victims of Japanese aggression or atrocities. Monuments and museums, such as the recently refurbished Yushukan museum, reflect amnesia or glorification about Japanese atrocities and colonization in East Asia.93 During this period Japanese Prime Ministers
resumed visiting the Yasukuni Shrine (Hashimoto in 1996, and Koizumi in 2001 and 2002). In sum, Japanese remembrance of the late period (1990s-2000s) is moderately apologetic.

[KevinF]

Rainmaker,

I'm sorry, but that whole article is biased against Japan. What MIT professor wrote that garbage?

The use of adjectives like "tepid", "weak," "moderate" call the ambitions and the bias of the writer into question.

Much of the writing is twisted as well. The protrayal of the textbook discussion of Japanese wartime atrocities as "sparse" is *very* subjective. How much detail about this do you think is necessary in junior high schools? Here in the U.S., for example, world history is usually required as a ninth-grade class (high school) and U.S. history is taken in 10th or 11th grades.

Most of history classes in Japanese junior high school focus on pre 20th century Japan. That's just the way it is. The same happens here in the U.S. by the way, as it does in the other country I can speak about from experience: Germany. Discussion of more recent events and history is reserved for the last by design, and the textbooks that are protested in China and Korea have always been the junior high school textbooks.

I really don't see how this left-wing, apologist, crackpot professor is in any position to demand that the "Japanese strategic bombings of Chinese cities" be put into the textbooks designed for children 12-15 years of age, which is exactly what he does by discussing its absence.

[rainmaker]

Her name is Jennifer Lind. This is her resume.

B.A., English, University of California, Berkeley
M.A., Pacific International Affairs, University of California, San Diego
Ph.D., Political Science, Massachusetts Institute of Technology

You can google search her stuff. She also wrote other articel and research but some of them are not negative about Japan.

She is not Korean nor Japanese. How can you tell that she is biased but you are not ???



Rainmaker,

I'm sorry, but that whole article is biased against Japan. What MIT professor wrote that garbage?

The use of adjectives like "tepid", "weak," "moderate" call the ambitions and the bias of the writer into question.

Much of the writing is twisted as well. The protrayal of the textbook discussion of Japanese wartime atrocities as "sparse" is *very* subjective. How much detail about this do you think is necessary in junior high schools? Here in the U.S., for example, world history is usually required as a ninth-grade class (high school) and U.S. history is taken in 10th or 11th grades.

Most of history classes in Japanese junior high school focus on pre 20th century Japan. That's just the way it is. The same happens here in the U.S. by the way, as it does in the other country I can speak about from experience: Germany. Discussion of more recent events and history is reserved for the last by design, and the textbooks that are protested in China and Korea have always been the junior high school textbooks.

I really don't see how this left-wing, apologist, crackpot professor is in any position to demand that the "Japanese strategic bombings of Chinese cities" be put into the textbooks designed for children 12-15 years of age, which is exactly what he does by discussing its absence.

[samurai999]

Her name is Jennifer Lind. This is her resume.

B.A., English, University of California, Berkeley
M.A., Pacific International Affairs, University of California, San Diego
Ph.D., Political Science, Massachusetts Institute of Technology

You can google search her stuff. She also wrote other articel and research but some of them are not negative about Japan.

She is not Korean nor Japanese. How can you tell that she is biased but you are not ???

Figures, its an english major from berzerkeley. :wink:

Tim

[KevinF]

Yes, this is the chick who wrote the article we discussed earlier - about 100 posts back (last week). She lived in Japan, but also taught at a Korean University. She's impressive...

impressively liberal that is. Come on, UCal Berkley and then MIT. Not sure you could name too more leftist schools in the country. He theory is that "acts of contrition serve as confidence-building measures between former adversaries." Fine. That's nice. The reality is that no matter what Japan said or did, it would never be reported objectively in China. Anyone disagree? I doubt it would be played objectively in Korea either - both countries are too busy hating, and both have something to gain from trying to keep Japan out of a leading role in asia.

I don't like her use of very subjective terms throughout her analysis.

By the way, the embassy of Japan and MoFA has the texts of the apologies and statements made by Japanese PMs and government officials online. Read them yourself.

The point is and was - it will never be enough for some people. Japan could apologize 100 times, grovel on the floor weeping for the sins of generations past, fill of coffers the aged victims all over the world, and it would never be enough for Korea and China.

When are China or Korea going to apologize to Japan for being collective asses?

[KevinF]

and rainmaker, just posting Lind's résumé doesn't take anything away from the rest of the post. Asking who the nutjob professor was only my first question, and your extensive quote of her called her authority and identity into question.

[drizzt]

actualy her list of titles is a little unusual in what it claims.....

thats an odd combination

[rainmaker]

Wow, this is getting interesting. I think her resume is much more impressive than other people. She is white American who has been lived both Japan and Korea. She experienced to knowing both parties. She has dedicated her life studying Asian countries more than anyone here. Are you are telling me she is biased and you are not ????

[rainmaker]

Also, I used her quote so that you can see both side. Everytime there was Japanese people who apologize, there were also strong resistance from otherside. I am not arguing about text book. I am not addressing about Jennifer's personal opinion...


Yes, this is the chick who wrote the article we discussed earlier - about 100 posts back (last week). She lived in Japan, but also taught at a Korean University. She's impressive...

impressively liberal that is. Come on, UCal Berkley and then MIT. Not sure you could name too more leftist schools in the country. He theory is that "acts of contrition serve as confidence-building measures between former adversaries." Fine. That's nice. The reality is that no matter what Japan said or did, it would never be reported objectively in China. Anyone disagree? I doubt it would be played objectively in Korea either - both countries are too busy hating, and both have something to gain from trying to keep Japan out of a leading role in asia.

I don't like her use of very subjective terms throughout her analysis.

By the way, the embassy of Japan and MoFA has the texts of the apologies and statements made by Japanese PMs and government officials online. Read them yourself.

The point is and was - it will never be enough for some people. Japan could apologize 100 times, grovel on the floor weeping for the sins of generations past, fill of coffers the aged victims all over the world, and it would never be enough for Korea and China.

When are China or Korea going to apologize to Japan for being collective asses?

[KevinF]

You're not really answering my question, are you?

[KhawMengLee]

Yes, this is the chick who wrote the article we discussed earlier - about 100 posts back (last week). She lived in Japan, but also taught at a Korean University. She's impressive...

impressively liberal that is. Come on, UCal Berkley and then MIT. Not sure you could name too more leftist schools in the country. He theory is that "acts of contrition serve as confidence-building measures between former adversaries." Fine. That's nice. The reality is that no matter what Japan said or did, it would never be reported objectively in China. Anyone disagree? I doubt it would be played objectively in Korea either - both countries are too busy hating, and both have something to gain from trying to keep Japan out of a leading role in asia.

I don't like her use of very subjective terms throughout her analysis.

By the way, the embassy of Japan and MoFA has the texts of the apologies and statements made by Japanese PMs and government officials online. Read them yourself.

The point is and was - it will never be enough for some people. Japan could apologize 100 times, grovel on the floor weeping for the sins of generations past, fill of coffers the aged victims all over the world, and it would never be enough for Korea and China.

When are China or Korea going to apologize to Japan for being collective asses?

By your statement, the fact that she is an outside observer and leftist, makes all her opinions void.

This then makes any comment by you (an outside observer and right wing) void as well.

So the Japanese Govt's accounts are more valid? Remember this is coming from the same govt. that allowed(no matter how small a percentage its taught to) the right wing to publish history books toning down Nanking. You know...redemption is not gained by just an apology.

You don't just say 'sorry' for murdering someone then think everything is okay. An eye for an eye...this in hebrew term is often misread literally. The term refers to equality...if you take my eye you pay what the eye is worth...if you take a life, it doesn't mean we take your life. What does that solve? 2 people dead does not pay anything back...If you take a life you work to repay what that life is worth, what that life could have been or done.

As I said earlier...Japan needs to be 'seen' to be sincere. They are sorry? Then compensate the comfort women. Build a good centre for the old and give free healthcare to the people they forced into labour. Koizumi should actually walk up to a victim, grasp his/her hands and apologize...show the sincerety.

And as for you saying you are sick and fed up...fine. But remember, you weren't there. You have not felt what our people have felt and suffered...the choice of forgiveness is not yours.

[rainmaker]

Hey, you are smarter than MIT Phd... What can I say. I am sure you can answer everything..




You're not really answering my question, are you?

[KevinF]

Yes, the choice of forgiveness isn't mine because I wasn't there. By that argument, it's not yours either. To extend the argument even further, the only ones who have the right to pursue gratification from Japan would be those who actually encountered or experienced the war. Extend your argument even further, and since Koizumi wasn't there, he shouldn't have to say jack. The only ones who can apologize are those who were there, right?

Your argument is intellectually bankrupt.

By the way, I didn't say that Lind's essay was invalid because she's a tree-hugging pinko. My insults were totally seperate. They were added for flavor. I did, however, argue that her use of language creates a mood in her article that I believe, shows her bias. Too many subjective arguments and not enough facts.

Hmm.. I don't see myself as right-wing. I see myself as moderate.


So the Japanese Govt's accounts are more valid? Remember this is coming from the same govt. that allowed(no matter how small a percentage its taught to) the right wing to publish history books toning down Nanking. You know...redemption is not gained by just an apology.


I can't believe you questioned me with "Japanese accounts are more valid?" I think you were refering to my pointing out that texts of speechs made by J. government officials are available online and we can all read the apologizes for ourselves without Ms. Lind's interpertation. Are you saying that the Japanese MoFA is lying about the texts of speechs made?

Further, as I pointed out before, the textbooks in question were one of a large number of textbooks authorized, only used in less than 1% of schools and I would argue that a full discussion of war crimes/atrocities possibly isn't even appropiate for junior high school in the first place. I question Korea and China's real motives behind pressuring Japan on the issue, especially in face of Japan's push to sit on the UN Security Council. I really question the necessity of any textbook argument at this point also in light of the joint efforts for textbook review occuring now between Korea and Japan.

You know, for many years, Japanese bands couldn't tour in Korea. There were laws in place to prevent Koreans from seeing Japanese moveis, tv shows, listening to music etc. The ban on these things was only removed in 1998. Nice job - there's a free country I want to trust.

From the blog Peking Duck (http://www.pekingduck.org/archives/002125.php) :

South Korean school text books, from middle school upwards, teach hatred. Period. Every Korean I have ever met has expressed the exact same line: that the Japanese are "cruel", in sharp contrast to Koreans, who are "kind." This is the common line. If you think the Chinese hatred for the Japanese is strong, then you ain't seen nothing. Trust me, the Korean hatred of the Japanese is far stronger, far more widespread, far scarier, far more neurotic indeed.
But wait! There's more:

Oon-Hee had sat through an hour of the ABC news earlier that evening, and had learn't of how many Australian, British and American World War Two veterans had been, for many years, pressuring the South Korean government into helping them to bring to justice a number of South Korean nationals who had served in the Japanese Imperial forces as executioners and torturers, of how the Japanese army actually preferred to recruit the services of Koreans to carry out these gruesome tasks, because most Japanese soldiers were considered by their superiors to be too "squeamish" to carry out such acts. None of this was ever discussed or reported on in South Korea. Thus these revelations were to her, both deeply surprsing and shocking.

It seems to me that Korea (and especially China) asking for anything from Japan is the pot calling the kettle black.

Apologies and money won't slove the deep-seeded hatred of Japan by these two nations. The hatred has been cooked-up over the years by Chinese and Korean politicians and instilled in the cultural norms and values of the citizenry.

[ISSAC RU]

KevinF:

You call me a hater ?
From My prespective you are THE hater.

You Americans believe you have the moral superiority and other countries are anything you think they are.
Let me ask you a few questions , answer them straight :

1. Do you believe Japan has the right to place WWII CLASS-A WAR-CRIMINALS in their national shinto shrine?

2. Do you believe everything that comes out from a Chinese government or Korean government are wrong ? and Japan appears to be more vaild than the others?

3. Why is it so hard for Japan to face her war time history when someone
else in the world has already done a fantasic job of it ?

4. Do you believe you Americans have the Moral superiority? Your way
of thinking is better than the others?

[KevinF]

Hey, Issac

Tell you what, I'll take your questions seriously. Just for fun.

I have a few questions of my own:

1. Why are you such a foul noob?
2. Do you know how many people starved in China during the Mao's Great Leap Forward?
3. Can you find Tibet on a map, and if you can, can you explain why I should listen to a government complain abouta past 60 years ago when your government inprisions and tortures Tibetans today?
4. Do your parents know you are a nazi?

[ISSAC RU]

answer your questions 1 by 1.

1. Whatever you like to call me , I will just take it .

2. Yes , I have a clear picture how many people died.
Because of false decision and ''bad weather''.
Chinese government back then weren't really cleaver about
economy plans.

3.Please , have you ever been to Tibet?
My father has personally visited Tibet , my Grandmother has
worked as a construction engineer in Tibet for 4 years.
There is no way in hell , Human rights abuse are going on
in that place. Before the Our gov't liberate Tibet , there was
still slavery system going on there.
Our Gov't spend billion dollars build a trans-high way to connect
tibet to the rest of the provinces. More than 1000 soliders dead
during those years trying to build the highway . Do you truly
believe that Human rights abuse are going on Tibet?
American and western Propaganda. If you have never been to
Tibet or seen the abuse by your eyes , I susguest you should
shut up about it .

4. My parents know me as a true patriotist kid from China and
I am fighting the Evil empire on the front line for my Country.
My whole family is very proud for what I am doing.
Thank you for asking.

[kendo-boi]

Hey, Issac

Tell you what, I'll take your questions seriously. Just for fun.

I have a few questions of my own:

1. Why are you such a foul noob?
2. Do you know how many people starved in China during the Mao's Great Leap Forward?
3. Can you find Tibet on a map, and if you can, can you explain why I should listen to a government complain abouta past 60 years ago when your government inprisions and tortures Tibetans today?
4. Do your parents know you are a nazi?

ya sure...answering questions seriously huh?...

[ISSAC RU]

Hey, Issac

4. Do your parents know you are a nazi?


one more thing I have to remind you about.

Nazi is a white man , not a yellow man.

[kendo-boi]

one more thing I have to remind you about.

Nazi is a white man , not a yellow man.

hahahah....nice!

[Yaiba]

Hey, Issac...
4. Do your parents know you are a nazi?
Hey KevinF, I think you meant communist, right? :wink:
If my history is correct, the Nazis disliked and imprisoned communists in their concentration camps because these secretive groups mainly constituted of Jews and were perceived as a threat, and that is why Hitler had a real distrust of the Soviets (communists). Issac is so pro-China and anti-capitalism, I could hardly believe that he would be a Nazi... just my thought.

Issac, in regards to your 4 questions to KevinF:
1) As far as the Yasukuni Shrine is concerned, it's a Japanese domestic matter... as much as you hate the existence of that shrine, you have no right to dictate what the Japanese should and shouldn't do. Even you spoke of Tibet and Taiwan as being China's domestic issues and not for foreign countries to interfere with... so I think you've made my point valid.

2) KevinF is simply stating that the Chinese and Korean governments are protesting to Japan to score political points and hinder Japan's ambitions to gain a seat on the UN Security Council. It's a fair assumption.

3) I think you're implying the Germans, right? Well, KevinF has been saying all along that Japan has apologised numerous times, paid reparations, etc, etc... how is this different to how the Germans have done it? BTW, German and Japanese cultures/psyches are very different so you can't expect them to behave/apologise in the same way. Also, I don't consider the German law to imprison people who question the Holocaust as a "fantastic job"... I consider it as a violation of human right to free speech.

4) I don't think KevinF has once said that the American way of thinking is morally superior and better than other countries.

[ISSAC RU]

About the Shrine thing .

That is not a Domestic Issue.

Let me ask you this :

What will happen if people place Hilter in their national church or some
sort of national symbol ?
Will that still be a domestic issue?

[Yaiba]

one more thing I have to remind you about.

Nazi is a white man , not a yellow man.
A Nazi (or National Socialist) is a person who believes in the ideology of National Socialism... so I don't think you necessarily have to be white to be a Nazi. I've read on the internet somewhere that there was a prominent person from India that held National Socialism in high regard.

[ISSAC RU]

Answer my previous Question ,
Don't change the topic

[eXact]

I know answer the question
all you americans are just supporting eachother.
Its like america vs. china in this thread

[kendo-boi]

I know answer the question
all you americans are just supporting eachother.
Its like america vs. china in this thread

hahaha...i know seems like it to me too!

[Yaiba]

About the Shrine thing .

That is not a Domestic Issue.

Let me ask you this :

What will happen if people place Hilter in their national church or some
sort of national symbol ?
Will that still be a domestic issue?
Yes... do you know why? Let me explain in a way that you could understand... a classic example is this: Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God and many worship the figure of Christ; Jews on the other hand see Jesus to be nothing more than a heretic (this is from the Jewish Talmud: 'Jesus of Nazareth was hung up on the day of preparation for the Passover for practising sorcery and leading Israel astray' Baraita Sanhedrin 43a). Jewish people may believe the Christians are worshipping an imposter but they have no right to tell them what to do, don't you agree? (NB. I mean no offence to Christian or Jewish people and I apologise to anyone who considers this example as inappropriate.)

BTW, there are many people in Germany (and also in other parts of Europe and America) that still secretly consider Hitler to be a true national hero. The thing is, more and more are starting to think like this because of Revisionism and it has been reported that there has been a significant increase in the number of arrests/convictions of those who've questioned the Holocaust in Germany over the last few years.

[Yaiba]

Answer my previous Question ,
Don't change the topic
Whoa... settle down. No need to get aggressive. I've answered your question.

[ISSAC RU]

Thank you , but that wasn't really a direct answer.
3 men


Hilter , Mussolini , Tojo

same scale .

[Yaiba]

Thank you , but that wasn't really a direct answer.
3 men


Hilter , Mussolini , Tojo

same scale .
Yes, that actually was a direct answer because I answered "Yes, it is a domestic issue". Didn't you understand any of what I was saying? Or are you just ignoring what I said because it's inconvenient for you now?

BTW, you should understand that not all people consider those 3 men that you mentioned above as being war criminals. Like I explained earlier, there are people that consider them to be national heroes for various reasons... so face this fact and deal with it.

[KhawMengLee]

Yes, the choice of forgiveness isn't mine because I wasn't there. By that argument, it's not yours either. To extend the argument even further, the only ones who have the right to pursue gratification from Japan would be those who actually encountered or experienced the war. Extend your argument even further, and since Koizumi wasn't there, he shouldn't have to say jack. The only ones who can apologize are those who were there, right?

Your argument is intellectually bankrupt.

By the way, I didn't say that Lind's essay was invalid because she's a tree-hugging pinko. My insults were totally seperate. They were added for flavor. I did, however, argue that her use of language creates a mood in her article that I believe, shows her bias. Too many subjective arguments and not enough facts.

Hmm.. I don't see myself as right-wing. I see myself as moderate.



I can't believe you questioned me with "Japanese accounts are more valid?" I think you were refering to my pointing out that texts of speechs made by J. government officials are available online and we can all read the apologizes for ourselves without Ms. Lind's interpertation. Are you saying that the Japanese MoFA is lying about the texts of speechs made?

Further, as I pointed out before, the textbooks in question were one of a large number of textbooks authorized, only used in less than 1% of schools and I would argue that a full discussion of war crimes/atrocities possibly isn't even appropiate for junior high school in the first place. I question Korea and China's real motives behind pressuring Japan on the issue, especially in face of Japan's push to sit on the UN Security Council. I really question the necessity of any textbook argument at this point also in light of the joint efforts for textbook review occuring now between Korea and Japan.

You know, for many years, Japanese bands couldn't tour in Korea. There were laws in place to prevent Koreans from seeing Japanese moveis, tv shows, listening to music etc. The ban on these things was only removed in 1998. Nice job - there's a free country I want to trust.

From the blog Peking Duck (http://www.pekingduck.org/archives/002125.php) :

But wait! There's more:


It seems to me that Korea (and especially China) asking for anything from Japan is the pot calling the kettle black.

Apologies and money won't slove the deep-seeded hatred of Japan by these two nations. The hatred has been cooked-up over the years by Chinese and Korean politicians and instilled in the cultural norms and values of the citizenry.

This hatred is not something cooked up overnight or introduced to the population. As I said, you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to how ppl in the region 'feel'.

I spent half my life in Australia and then working in different places around the world. I feel that my generation live in a world without war. I have seen a few japanese do wrong things and then again I have seen many malaysians do the same. In my opinion, every nation and race has its fair share of pricks. I have this view because this is my experience with the world.

But people who were there to experience the Japanese invasion felt their cruelty first had. Koreans employed to do the dirty work? Sure, but who told them to pull the trigger? A man who commands the deed to be done is just as guilty as the executioner.

The generation who suffered only know Japan as evil. And the fact that Japan has not done anything to change this image leaves only the hate and fear. Why do you think they teach this to their children? Because this is all they know and they don't want the same to happen to their kids.

[KevinF]

First of all - in response to Kendo-boi's statements (post #206), I did have this long response to Issac's questions (post #203) all written out, and my questions came after that. I edited the post as I didn't think it was really worth it.

Second, thanks Yaiba for your comments. I actually did mean "nazi" and not "communist," or "socialist" for that matter. The distinction is actually quite subtle, and I was referring to his propaganda and fervor, not really to any higher political thoughts or philosophy.

Third, where did all the 15 and 16 year old boys come from so suddenly at night?

Now, to a meater issue: Lee, not sure you can really claim that I have not right to talk about the issues bacause I have no idea what is really felt in the region. Should I take it to mean that the sentiments related in Peking Duck were bogus? If you have lived half your life in Australia, I'm not sure you are qualified either, for that matter, and Rainmaker at least could admit his possible bias.

Your comments about pricks is dead on. They are everywhere (incl., but not limited to: Australia, Canada, China, Japan, Korea and the U.S.). On average, though, there are very few pricks in Thailand - those are nice people.

The point about the Koreans doing the dirty work was an interesting one, and one not raised yet. I have already raised the issue of Korea's recent violent past, ongoing civil war, and revisionist textbooks as they relate to the North. In that post, I was discussing the way Korea has molded hatred for Japan and stired up unrest among its populace with anti-Japanese laws and a lax view of its own transgressions during the period of Japanese occupation. You can call all of these things fair, or blame them on Japan if you want, but IMHO they produce a stiled view of the world from a Korean perspective.

The generation who suffered only know Japan as evil. And the fact that Japan has not done anything to change this image leaves only the hate and fear. Why do you think they teach this to their children? Because this is all they know and they don't want the same to happen to their kids.
Actually, this was part of a previos post of mine on the issue. My argument is that younger Koreans and Chinese hate Japan even *more* than previous generations do. Obviously, the propaganda is working.

On the other hand, Korean culture is booming in Japan. Bae Yong Joon (32), known in Japan simply as "Yon-sama, is incredibly popular, as is BoA, a crossover singer who sings in both her native Korean and Japanese. Its strange that evil Japan is reaching out and embracing Korean pop culture so much. I would actually argue that most Japanese people probably aren't even aware of the extent that their products and cultural exports were banned for so long in Korea.

[KevinF]

Oh, I have a few questions more for Issac:

1. Why did China execute Lobsang Dondrup, a Tibetan monk in 2002?
2. Do you believe that non-violently protesting warrents a death sentence, as is the case with Tenzin Delek, a Tibetan monk currently imprisoned?
3. Who exactly were the Tibetans "liberated" from (your word) by the Chinese invasion?
4. Would China ever apologize for the 1.2 million Tibetans killed since the Chinese "liberation" in 1950?
5. Can you comment on the Tibetan demonstrations of 27 September 1987, where more than 200 Tibetans staged a demonstration in Lhasa. In the clamp down which followed on successive demonstrations - including the ones on 1 October 1987 and 5 March 1988 - Chinese police opened fire, killing and critically wounding many on the spot and imprisoning at least 2,500?
6. Would a nation "liberated" require martial law from 1950 to 1990 (40 years)?
7. Can you comment on Chinese violations of the UN Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (Convention Against Torture), and customary laws of nations such as the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) in Tibet?
8. Can you explain why the UN Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities passed the "Situation in Tibet" Resolution (1991/10) on 23 August 1991,, expressing concern at "continuing reports of violations of fundamental human rights and freedoms which threatened the distinct cultural, religious and national identity of the Tibetan people"?
9. Finally, if the "liberation" of Tibet is an internal matter, wouldn't, by the same logic, the Japanese invasion of China and Korea be an internal matter? I don't see much of a difference between the two. The only difference is in the current ownership of the land in question, and the acts seem largley the same.

Thank you.

[samurai999]

By your statement, the fact that she is an outside observer and leftist, makes all her opinions void.

This then makes any comment by you (an outside observer and right wing) void as well.



I don't think Kevin is right wing? I think he is moderate. Have you seen extreme left and extreme right? I've seen it in this country and the extreme left are in Northern California. My home county has the ONLY congresswoman (or man) who opposed the war on terrorism right after 9/11. I can say that she DIDN'T speak for me. The extreme right are usually in the "bible belt".

People like him are considered left wing in parts of the deep south FYI.

Tim

[rainmaker]

oh, kevin, kevin, kevin....

In that post, I was discussing the way Korea has molded hatred for Japan and stired up unrest among its populace with anti-Japanese laws and a lax view of its own transgressions during the period of Japanese occupation. You can call all of these things fair, or blame them on Japan if you want, but IMHO they produce a stiled view of the world from a Korean perspective.

=> Let me tell you how Japanese treat Koreans living in Japan. There is a large population of Koreans (now divided into North Korean and South Korean citizens) in Japan. In 1997, the number of Koreans living in Japan was estimated to be approximately 700,000 - mostly second- and third-generation Koreans who do not have Japanese citizenship, but whose native language is Japanese. Prejudice against Koreans still prevails today in Japanese government policies, as well as in the attitudes of many Japanese people. Koreans face difficulties in employment, obtaining passports, housing and marriage to Japanese.

Koreans are rarely employed by large companies and are not allowed to hold positions of management in the public sector, since the government regards these positions as positions of authority. The result of this exclusion is that unemployment rates for Koreans are substantially higher than those of the general population. Koreans are also disproportionately represented in unskilled and semi-skilled jobs. There are other areas in which Koreans are discriminated against. Even though they pay taxes, they are not allowed to vote, nor are they allowed all the same welfare benefits as Japanese. Until 1982 they received no state pensions.

Actually, this was part of a previos post of mine on the issue. My argument is that younger Koreans and Chinese hate Japan even *more* than previous generations do. Obviously, the propaganda is working.
=> Wrong again. It is depends on when and whom you talk with Korean. Personnel exchanges between Korea and Japan were extremely limited before the two countries normalized their diplomatic relations in 1965. The number of Korean and Japanese travelers between the two countries stood at some 10,000 annually then, but today, that many people travel between the two countries on a daily basis. As you mentioned earlier, We didn't even have any cultural relationship prior to 1998s. Since then we have imported Japanese movies and Utada Hikaru is one of the popular popstar in Korea. Also, we held Worldcup together. Since then, the two countries have widely promoted exchange programs in many areas, such as theatrical art, exhibitions, sports, youth activities, local government, and academics.

Quote: According to the "World Cup Korea-Japan Joint Public Opinion Poll," conducted by the Chosun Ilbo and the Mainichi Shinbun in early July, immediately following the World Cup, the number of Japanese who said they felt a sense of affinity with Korea increased from 38% in 1995 to 48% in 1997, 69% in January of this year, and 77% in July. The number of Koreans who felt a sense of affinity with Japan amounted to 26% in 1995, 29% in 1997, and 35% and 42%, respectively, in January and July of 2002. Although the number still did not reach 50%, a steady upward trend can be seen.

I am sure right after political dispute between two countries, such % will be lower and bitter reaction is anticipated. Koreans are more sensitive about such subject than Japanese. Can you blame Korean for such behavior ? I don't think so.

On the other hand, Korean culture is booming in Japan. Bae Yong Joon (32), known in Japan simply as "Yon-sama, is incredibly popular, as is BoA, a crossover singer who sings in both her native Korean and Japanese. Its strange that evil Japan is reaching out and embracing Korean pop culture so much. I would actually argue that most Japanese people probably aren't even aware of the extent that their products and cultural exports were banned for so long in Korea.

=> Why don't you look at the bigger picture ? Yon-sama syndrom is just small piece of trade between Korea. In 2002, South Korea’s trade deficit with Japan amounted to US$14.7 billion. Its exports to Japan were $15.14 billion, but it imported $29.85 billion worth of Japanese goods. How much Yon-sama and Boa made money from Japan ?? Maybe $1~2M ??? Yes, It is interesting that Korean actor or singer is being popular in Japan. But think about how much Japanese brand name, such as Sony, Cannon, Honda are being more popular in Korea than those actors in Japan.

[samurai999]

Actually, this was part of a previos post of mine on the issue. My argument is that younger Koreans and Chinese hate Japan even *more* than previous generations do. Obviously, the propaganda is working.
=> Wrong again. It is depends on when and whom you talk with Korean. Personnel exchanges between Korea and Japan were extremely limited before the two countries normalized their diplomatic relations in 1965. The number of Korean and Japanese travelers between the two countries stood at some 10,000 annually then, but today, that many people travel between the two countries on a daily basis. As you mentioned earlier, We didn't even have any cultural relationship prior to 1998s. Since then we have imported Japanese movies and Utada Hikaru is one of the popular popstar in Korea. Also, we held Worldcup together. Since then, the two countries have widely promoted exchange programs in many areas, such as theatrical art, exhibitions, sports, youth activities, local government, and academics.

.

I don't think that younger koreans hate Jp people more.. A lot of the koreans, Japanese and Chinese here in Southern Cal and norcal for that matter (most of them are 2nd gen or at the most, 3rd gen) have a pretty good relationship with each other. I think the hate is spewed by "good 'ol boy" groups which are stubbornly intent on preserving their own hatreds towards another race for whatever reason they believe.

Tim

[rainmaker]

Tim, I agree with this. In California, second largest Kendo population after Japanese is Korean. I have get along great with Japenese friend and I often wonder how they can even started the world warII.

I just hate Japanese governement's inconsistent policy toward to Korea. It does really frustrate us. I cannot make comment about their relationship with China since I really don't know their relationship.



I don't think that younger koreans hate Jp people more.. A lot of the koreans, Japanese and Chinese here in Southern Cal and norcal for that matter (most of them are 2nd gen or at the most, 3rd gen) have a pretty good relationship with each other. I think the hate is spewed by "good 'ol boy" groups which are stubbornly intent on preserving their own hatreds towards another race for whatever reason they believe.

Tim

[KevinF]

Rainmaker,

Good point about the treatment of Koreans in Japan. I don't like it, and the recent Japanese Supreme Court decision regarding the Nurse Manager who retained her Korean citizenship was IMHO wrong. However, if this specifically is what you are discussing, the woman had the opportunity ot give up her citizenship and become Japanese. Koreans don't have to live in Japan. They live there by choice. But I'm willing to conceed that I don't like some of the government policies in this regard.

Yes, there are a number of exchange programs. Thankfully, after Korea tore down its anti-Japanese laws in 1998, these programs, as well as the free flow of people and ideas could occur. In fact, as I mentioned in a previous post, there is even a joint commission investigating the textbook issue.

By the way, I brought up an issue of great importance to the discussion. I think its of value to take a good look at the way Korea has dealt with its own war crimials who willingly aided and abetted the Japanese occupation. I think if we find a lack of committment in pursuring Korean traitors and human rights abusers, than we can show some basis for some of my claims that Korea is biased against Japan (and not for good reason as you say). Many people posting here are willing to discuss Japanese war crimes and the situation in Japan, I'm just sitting abck and taking a look at what is going on in the other nations for whom it is apparently fit to point fingers. I think Issac certainly has no moral authority to point fingers, and I chuckle every time I think about his post equating the Dali Lama with Osama bin Laden.

Korea is not a stable nation. It is a nation in the midst of an unresolved civil war. The South Korean government was perfectly willing to quell potential rebellion by using special forces troops against its own people in 1980. Until 1998, anti-Japanese laws were in place which prevented a free flow of ideas and people, and I argue this helped Korea maintain its anti-Japanese sentiment. I'm not sure if you deny any of this, or dismiss it with a wave of the magical staement "can you blame them" or "its all Japan's fault."

Tim is right - its the "good-ol' boy" networks that keep this hate alive. My argument is that these good ol' boys are certainly in control of the Korean government and media and are willing to use it to further unnecessary sentiment aginst a benevolent neighbour.

I can blame Korea for hyper-sensitivity, yes. However, I am willing to conceed that the Korean sentiment is probably more genuine that the Chinese sentiment. I think the Chinese sentiment against Japan is far more of a twisted and fabricated political game played by Beijing than what occurs in Seoul. Either way, the hatred and Japan-bashing that occurs is not in the best interests of the people in both nations (although it *is* in the best interests of China, as they are actively seeking to keep Japan off the UN Sec Council, as mentioned before).

This kind of leads us back to the issue of Takeshima nicely, doesn't it? I argue that the positioning of Korean warships around Takeshima is a overkill, and the Korean media and government stirs up the feelings again. The issuing of the Dokdoh postage stamps is just another example of the Korean mentality of not keeping the hatred too far out of sight or mind.

By the way, I am looking at the bigger picture. People like you see the past (which is not trivial, I agree) but focus so much energy on minor issues like the textbooks or Yasukuni Jinja or a rock in the ocean with two permanent inhabitants and no fresh wat, and I am more focused on the larger issues of Asian peace and stability. I've said that several times.

We can argue the details back and forth if you would like, but the reality is that a sane analysis of the asian political and military situation would lead to the logical conclusion of an increased power base in Japan to offset China.

P.S. Please don't whine about a trade deficit. Hyundais aren't Toyota and Samsung isn't exactly Sony. I don't think it appropiate for Detroit to whine about the consumer vehicle market when they churn out crap, and its very unbecoming for you to do the same.

[rainmaker]

This kind of leads us back to the issue of Takeshima nicely, doesn't it? I argue that the positioning of Korean warships around Takeshima is a overkill, and the Korean media and government stirs up the feelings again. The issuing of the Dokdoh postage stamps is just another example of the Korean mentality of not keeping the hatred too far out of sight or mind.
=> Again, we believe Dokdoh is our land and we are just trying to make our point across. I don't believe they are ready for war. Koreans know that their Navy is far weaker than Japan.


P.S. Please don't whine about a trade deficit. Hyundais aren't Toyota and Samsung isn't exactly Sony. I don't think it appropiate for Detroit to whine about the consumer vehicle market when they churn out crap, and its very unbecoming for you to do the same.

=> I am not talking about deficit. You started with Yon-sama crap. They maybe buy little bit of Korean cultural things but Korean buys much more stuff from Japan...

[ISSAC RU]

Oh, I have a few questions more for Issac:

1. Why did China execute Lobsang Dondrup, a Tibetan monk in 2002?
2. Do you believe that non-violently protesting warrents a death sentence, as is the case with Tenzin Delek, a Tibetan monk currently imprisoned?
3. Who exactly were the Tibetans "liberated" from (your word) by the Chinese invasion?
4. Would China ever apologize for the 1.2 million Tibetans killed since the Chinese "liberation" in 1950?
5. Can you comment on the Tibetan demonstrations of 27 September 1987, where more than 200 Tibetans staged a demonstration in Lhasa. In the clamp down which followed on successive demonstrations - including the ones on 1 October 1987 and 5 March 1988 - Chinese police opened fire, killing and critically wounding many on the spot and imprisoning at least 2,500?
6. Would a nation "liberated" require martial law from 1950 to 1990 (40 years)?
7. Can you comment on Chinese violations of the UN Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (Convention Against Torture), and customary laws of nations such as the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) in Tibet?
8. Can you explain why the UN Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities passed the "Situation in Tibet" Resolution (1991/10) on 23 August 1991,, expressing concern at "continuing reports of violations of fundamental human rights and freedoms which threatened the distinct cultural, religious and national identity of the Tibetan people"?
9. Finally, if the "liberation" of Tibet is an internal matter, wouldn't, by the same logic, the Japanese invasion of China and Korea be an internal matter? I don't see much of a difference between the two. The only difference is in the current ownership of the land in question, and the acts seem largley the same.

Thank you.

Before I answer all your questions , please answer mine first.
Post #203

You really pissed me off at #9 ,

JAPAN'S INVASION ON CHINA AND KOREA IS A INTERNEL MATTER?
Are you seriously thinking this way?
If you are , you are no different from a Japanese ultra-right wing
terroist and I will stop this conversation right away.

Tibetan is part of Chinese ethic group , Period.
China is a country made up by 56 different kinds of ethic group.

[KevinF]

Issac, hi, I see you are back from Kindercare.

Okay, I give it a go:


1. Do you believe Japan has the right to place WWII CLASS-A WAR-CRIMINALS in their national shinto shrine?
Yes, it is a shinto belief. Every soul deserves a resting place. I don't see - regardless of what Tojo or some others did - why they don't deserve, as human beings, a resting place. It just happens to be with the souls of many other Japanese who died in the conflicts throughout history.
Further, the issue of the location of the kami in question is a religious one, and like you love to point out with reference to Tibet, and internal issue. I haven't complained about Mao's tomb in specific, or the cult that has grown around him, nor would I ever advocate tossing out the remains of the inhuman Chinese generals who invaded Tibet in 1950..... But you have advocated going to Japan and razing a shrine. Hmmm... anyone for going to China and setting fire to Mao's embalmed body? Sounds to be on the same level...
So, it short, the answer is 100%, yes.


2. Do you believe everything that comes out from a Chinese government or Korean government are wrong ? and Japan appears to be more vaild than the others?
No, just most. And I make a big distinction between the Chinese and the Koreans. See my last few posts for details.


3. Why is it so hard for Japan to face her war time history when someone else in the world has already done a fantasic job of it ?
It's not hard. It's been done. And redone. Several times, in fact. China signed away all rights to war calims in the 1970's. Too bad for China. I guess the government saw the economic aid that Japan was offering, and has given over the years, as far more important than the past. At least, that's how is was perceived then. Years later, with double-digit economic growth, admission to the WTO, favorable trading status with the U.S., China want to start this up again? With Japan lobbying for the afore mentioned reform in the UN, the entire act seems bogus.
Who is this "someone else in the world?" I'm not sure if you are talking about Germany, or what.


4. Do you believe you Americans have the Moral superiority? Your way of thinking is better than the others?

Nope. Never said they did. I did say, however, that China certainly has no right to whine about abuses and war-time actions with a shocking history of its own. And China's abusive history is more recent and continues to this day.

Hey, when can we expect a Chinese Nobel prize laureate? I mean, the Dali Lama (who you say is Bin Laden), got his, and even a Japanese Prime Minister got one. When will the peaceful, benevolent Chinese be recognized for their efforts by the Nobel committee?:chinese:

You know, its too bad most of the rest of the world doesn't buy the idea of Tibetans being a "Chinese ethnic group." I'm glad my ninth question pissed you off. That was it's intention. The point behind the question is that Tibet is just as much an "internal" matter for China is as Korea or China was for Japan. I see them as the same. In fact, at least Japan made a better show of the occupation of China by installing Pu Yi into power in Manchukwo - he at least had a legitimate claim to authority in China.

Okay, my part is done. Answer questions 1-8 (I already got the answer for #9). I can't wait for this!:wink:

[rainmaker]

Tibetan is part of Chinese ethic group , Period.
China is a country made up by 56 different kinds of ethic group.
=> I disagree with this. Chinese killing Tibetan is wrong. American killing native indian is wrong. Korean killing its own citizen during Kwangju uprising is wrong. Japanese killing Korean and Chinese during WWII is wrong..... Killing people for their own good, is wrong. It is murder. Simple..

[ISSAC RU]

Alright , since you agree Japan has the right to place WWII Class-A WarCriminals
in their national shrine I will have no further place in this conversation.
You are already a Japanese Ultra-Right Wing Terroist supporter , according
to my previous post . I will stop everything right here.
I asked this question before you do , So I legally have the right to leave this discussion without answering your questions.

Bye Bye , Its been a fun time talking with you.

Sayanora~

[rainmaker]

Good point about the treatment of Koreans in Japan. I don't like it, and the recent Japanese Supreme Court decision regarding the Nurse Manager who retained her Korean citizenship was IMHO wrong. However, if this specifically is what you are discussing, the woman had the opportunity ot give up her citizenship and become Japanese. Koreans don't have to live in Japan. They live there by choice. But I'm willing to conceed that I don't like some of the government policies in this regard.

=> I am very disappoint with such statement. I am sure you are not such extremist. Not only Nurse case but there has been many other incidents like this in Japan. If you don't diasgree with what government do, leave. Such extreme idea is wrong. However, if anyone agrees with such idea, you are no different than Chinese government, Castro from Cuba or Japenese left wing.

There are more than 40% of American who disagree with Bush administration, do they have to leave US? Do you and I have to agree with all US law and regulation ? No. If you believe something is wrong, then you should speak up. Do your best to change it. That is what democracy is about. We are not talking about Cuba here..

Also not many people do not live by choice. They were born there and went to school and raised in Japan, who doesn't know a word of Korean. Most of the ethnic Korean permanent residents of Japan, from both the South and the North, are those who came between 1910, when Japan annexed Korea as a colony, and the end of World War II (1945) and their children and grandchildren. During World War II, many Koreans were forcibly brought to work in Japan. Accurate figures of the number of ethnic Koreans residing in Japan are not known, it is believed that about 650,000 Koreans, including those who remained in Japan at the war's end, their children, and grandchildren, currently hold North or South Korean citizenship. The majority of these are second- and third-generation Koreans born in Japan. Including those who have taken Japanese citizenship and those born between a Japanese and Korean parent, it is believed that there are about 2 million people of Korean heritage in Japan today.

[KevinF]

Bye, Issac

Thank you for removing yourself from the discussion. Feel free to start another, even more radical thread. :wink:

Sungmin, yes, its a controversial statement, and I wasn't saying that they should either like it or lump it, but rather that some have made some decisions with full knowledge of the repercussions (as is the case with the nurse).

But you underlined only part of what I said, and selected it for attack. It's funny, I was agreeing with you. Did you miss that?

Check your personal messages as well. I wrote you a message specifically about this.

[samurai999]

[i]
There are more than 40% of American who disagree with Bush administration, do they have to leave US? Do you and I have to agree with all US law and regulation ? No. If you believe something is wrong, then you should speak up. Do your best to change it. That is what democracy is about. We are not talking about Cuba here..


Yes there is an under 45% approval rate for the good ol prez right now. At least in the left wing areas of California, because the Democrats lost (again) to the Republicans, some people have either moved to Canada or France. (ironically still maintaining their American citizenship probably for the day that one of "theirs" will get into office) Canada for their affordable (but lots of quacks I heard) health care and dunno know why they went to france....

Now we have the crazy (almost psychotic?) Howard Dean trying to just rip into the Republicans to show toughness. Why doesn't he recruit another ultra left winger Dennis Kucinich and start his own party. Of course this isn't really helping me to be swayed into voting for a Democratic president. I say... Libertarian.. Peace and Freedom anybody??

Tim

[rainmaker]

I do understand Canada, but why people moved to France ??? Kevin, your thought please ???




Yes there is an under 45% approval rate for the good ol prez right now. At least in the left wing areas of California, because the Democrats lost (again) to the Republicans, some people have either moved to Canada or France. (ironically still maintaining their American citizenship probably for the day that one of "theirs" will get into office) Canada for their affordable (but lots of quacks I heard) health care and dunno know why they went to france....

Now we have the crazy (almost psychotic?) Howard Dean trying to just rip into the Republicans to show toughness. Why doesn't he recruit another ultra left winger Dennis Kucinich and start his own party. Of course this isn't really helping me to be swayed into voting for a Democratic president. I say... Libertarian.. Peace and Freedom anybody??

Tim

[drizzt]

I found the fact our "idiot" president maintained better grades than his supposedly intelectualy superior oponent hehehehehehe(i dont like kerry btw)

[KhawMengLee]

Now, to a meater issue: Lee, not sure you can really claim that I have not right to talk about the issues bacause I have no idea what is really felt in the region. Should I take it to mean that the sentiments related in Peking Duck were bogus? If you have lived half your life in Australia, I'm not sure you are qualified either, for that matter, and Rainmaker at least could admit his possible bias.

[/size]

As I said in another post, my family has had a rather traumatic past with the Japanese occupation. Yes, I have spent half my life in Australia and maybe for the better because it taught me to look at things differently.

My family was witness to what the Japanese were capable of first hand. Now my view should be baised but it isn't...I'm at the moment pointing out what the victim's side feels.

My best friend's father was just a baby in his mother's arms when the Japanese strafed the road they were on. People in Petaling St in Kl still point to places there where the Japanese used to display the heads of people they beheaded. But do we hate the Japanese, no. Our circle of friends in Uni(all surfers) were a mix of Malaysians, japanese and Danes...we respect each other as people.

I react strongly to this issue because of the dispassionate attitude people have on this issue. People in the occupied regions that fought have a very different view on this subject.


On the other hand, Korean culture is booming in Japan. [size=-1]Bae Yong Joon (32), known in Japan simply as "Yon-sama, is incredibly popular, as is BoA, a crossover singer who sings in both her native Korean and Japanese. Its strange that evil Japan is reaching out and embracing Korean pop culture so much. I would actually argue that most Japanese people probably aren't even aware of the extent that their products and cultural exports were banned for so long in Korea.



Actually, many japanese icons were actually Korean. Take Mas Oyama, the karate god, whose real name was Choi Baedel.

[KhawMengLee]

However, if this specifically is what you are discussing, the woman had the opportunity ot give up her citizenship and become Japanese. Koreans don't have to live in Japan. They live there by choice. But I'm willing to conceed that I don't like some of the government policies in this regard.

Remember, many of them were forced into labour gangs and shipped to Japan to work.

Its like saying, oh, Descenents of African Slaves don't have to live in America. They live there by choice.

Yes, because its the only life they know.

[KevinF]

Lee,

Well, my comments about the Koreans living in Japan really referred to those who rejected Japanese citizenship only (as in the case of the nurse manager who was in the news recently who was denied a public government nursing management position becuse she was a foreigner). She had the opportunity to become a Japanese citizen long ago, but decided (unlike her brother and the rest of her family) to remain Korean. Many Koreans living in Japan are treated unfairly, but I in some cases, I could the governments' position, especially if a remedy to the discrimination was provided years ago.

I think its natural that some positions would be denied from foreigners in any country. I wouldn't imagine going to Australia and becomming an Australian army officer, or living in France and becoming a French secret agent even if I spoke French perfectly. Any country has the right to bar certain positions from people who are foreigners, I think. *But*, there is still a lot of descrimination...

Rainmaker & Samurai999: I really haven't heard about any large numbers of Americans fleeing to France. Of all the nations I could think of, I find that particular choice of nations to which to immigrate particularly unbelievable.

Lee: Sorry about your family's experiences during the war. There are ligitimate feelings and wounds from the war that are yet to heal - nor will they ever truely heal, regardless of what is said or done in Tokyo, I think. However, I think we should all be weary of this sort of animosity and bad feelings and give Japan the benefit of the doubt. As mentioned before, Japan has managed to exist peacefully in Asia for 60 years now - which is more than can be said of any other nation in Asia, especially, also as mentioned before, the two nations most critical of Japan. This makes me naturally suspicious, and the Chinese seem especially ready to use this sentiment for political and economic gain.

[rainmaker]

I do not have any problem with this specific incident. It is not only in Japan but also in many other countries have same policy. They do often give ristriction on governement job. I wouldn't feel comfortable if US president has French citizenship....




Lee,

Well, my comments about the Koreans living in Japan really referred to those who rejected Japanese citizenship only (as in the case of the nurse manager who was in the news recently who was denied a public government nursing management position becuse she was a foreigner). She had the opportunity to become a Japanese citizen long ago, but decided (unlike her brother and the rest of her family) to remain Korean. Many Koreans living in Japan are treated unfairly, but I in some cases, I could the governments' position, especially if a remedy to the discrimination was provided years ago.

I think its natural that some positions would be denied from foreigners in any country. I wouldn't imagine going to Australia and becomming an Australian army officer, or living in France and becoming a French secret agent even if I spoke French perfectly. Any country has the right to bar certain positions from people who are foreigners, I think. *But*, there is still a lot of descrimination...

[samurai999]

Well, not everbody is fleeing to France, but some of the people from the bay area, due to the fact that their man (John Kerry) lost in the 2004 elections, have left the country to reside in Canada or France because they didn't want they couldn't stand to see Dubya in office. There was an article in the San Francisco Chronicle about this a while back.

Remember this IS the SF Bay Area we are talking about. haha. One of the most leftist parts of the United States.

Tim

[KhawMengLee]

Lee: Sorry about your family's experiences during the war. There are ligitimate feelings and wounds from the war that are yet to heal - nor will they ever truely heal, regardless of what is said or done in Tokyo, I think. However, I think we should all be weary of this sort of animosity and bad feelings and give Japan the benefit of the doubt. As mentioned before, Japan has managed to exist peacefully in Asia for 60 years now - which is more than can be said of any other nation in Asia, especially, also as mentioned before, the two nations most critical of Japan. This makes me naturally suspicious, and the Chinese seem especially ready to use this sentiment for political and economic gain.

No worries. As I said, I've a very open view of people. You judge them as individuals not as a group. Hell, I remember my Grandmother wanting to meet my girlfriend once(mind you she was japanese) and me thinking...riiiiiiiiiiight, I forsee trouble on the horison. When I brought her over to meet Grandma I was thinking, righto! here it comes! but to my surprise my Grandma loved her...

I deal with Japanese clients and some of them inforce the stereotype that people have of them(eg. cruel to women, brutal etc..stereotypes often pick the worst traits we have). I've been to Japanese clubs here in Malaysia entertaining them and watching one guy slap a hostess after a few drinks because her class was higher than his when we went 'cheers'. He later handed her quite a bit of cash and said no more of it. My Auntie sells golf club memberships. Part of her job entails entertaining clients. Particularly, a very large electronic corporation, whose members on the first night meeting her groped her bum and were quite offended when she slapped the offender. Their tune changed when she was seen with their MD the next day having lunch...no more cheekiness after that.

I've also met many Japanese I call friend. Whom I have shared the bond of brotherhood with the passions we share in common..well, surfing and kendo...and drinking and admiring the female form(but we aren't allowed to talk about that..*ahem*). I mean these are good friends you know that will be there for you when you need help the most. When I was beaten and robbed last year,this friend was one of the few good mates who immediately asked if I wanted a place to stay to get away and recuperate.

It goes to show good or bad exists in every race. It exists in every man and woman. Sometimes there is more bad within us...and we hope to god that those with good can pull us back to the fold.

btw, Call me Meng...Khaw is my surname...tho' I'd like to be a Lee if Robert E. was my Great-grandfather;) Hoorah! For the bonny blue flag that bears a single star!

[samurai999]

It goes to show good or bad exists in every race. It exists in every man and woman. Sometimes there is more bad within us...and we hope to god that those with good can pull us back to the fold.
!

I guess thats the point i wanted to make in other threads, but my lack of communication skill might have not put the point through? ah.. the pit falls of being an engineer. lol :silly:

Tim

[KenShi_JoB]

Bye, Issac

Thank you for removing yourself from the discussion. Feel free to start another, even more radical thread. :wink:


How can he say you are "already a Japanese Ultra-Right Wing Terroist supporter " when he are radical-ultra racist.

[samurai999]

Well don't worry your little heads off, he has already started another thread about america being terrorists and the like. The usual nonsensical crap that we expect from him.

Tim

[KenShi_JoB]

Well don't worry your little heads off, he has already started another thread about america being terrorists and the like. The usual nonsensical crap that we expect from him.

Tim

555555555555555

[mero]

Well, I'm glad that we all agree that Dokdo is Korean territory.

The reason why this is such a sore point for Koreans is that it's illustrative of Japanese dishonesty and encroachment. Anyone who knows anything about this issue both Japanese and Korean know that this was Korean territory: both Korean and Japanese maps; incomparably onesided historical evidence and documentation; Japanese admission by emperor, scholars, politicians; etc.. Mind you that Japan claimed during post WWII negotiations that Ullungdo, Jejudo along with Dokdo were Japanese territory. LOL.

The only harbinger of Japan's claims is the 1905 terra nullis proclamtion made by Shimane Prefecture which is a total BS technical claim that's entirely nullified by Cairo Treaty anyways. And mind you that Japan claimed Dokdo terra nullis!!! LOL. Dokdo is an island rock croppings that Koreans living on Ullungdo have been staring at and fishing at for centuries!!! And Japan claims they discovered it in 1905!!!

Give me a break.

[mero]

Because for Koreans it's not an issue of contention and International Court holds no jurisdiction to adjudicate Japan's ridiculous claims.


Why won't Korea let the International Courts settle the issue if their claims are so rock solid (pun intended)?