Militant Sensei

[nodachi]

So I went to a big practice today with lots of sensei and many different clubs and people from all over joining in on the practice. Some sensei were friendly. Some were very instructive. Some were very diffficult and made you work hard, but you got a lot out of them super exhausting.

Then there was this one sensei who was super militant and would whack you really hard if you did something amiss or he wanted to correct your posture for example so he would whack your arm into place with his shinai. He talked really strictly and had a very harsh exterior. He wasn't abusive, but he was a bit excessive in the force he was using.

I could still tell that his heart was in the right place and that he wanted you to learn, but his teaching style didn't hit me quite right.

What do you people with sensei like this like about these militant kind of instructors? What do you get out of practicing with them that you feel you don't when practicing with a softer personalitied sensei?

Maybe this is the old way of teaching and I am just not accustomed to this style of teaching, but I want your thoughts.

[ben]

Nodachi if you go trawling through the old threads there's one initiated by Confound that dealt with this issue. It ran for quite a few pages and was notable not least for documenting an intellectual u-turn by Ms Confound.

If I was a better nerd I would go look for it and paste the link but I can't be arsed.
:)
b

[JSchmidt]

Hmm it depends.

I've tried practicing with various 7th and 8th dans, who all had various methods.
One guy, would start of with smacking you in the armpit for the first 4-6 cuts until you doubled over in pain and then back off. Needless to say, I didnt enjoy that. (Although I was later told he always did that to students he 'liked').
My current teacher, is quite soft in that regard, but his teaching ability is amazing; (His english, especially during keiko, is quite limited) He will, with very quick and simple examples show you exactly what you are doing wrong and how to correct it and I think that's what it comes down to:
The style of teaching is almost irrelevant as long as it works.

Jakob

[ben]

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131

There, I have improved myself.
:P
b

[alexpollijr]

I had one sensei like that until last monday.
Eventually, as both parts get acquainted the 'harshness' gets lighter.

This kind of instruction is actually pretty good because it doesn't let bad habits slip by through practice. Every minor error is corrected and no less than full effort is demanded, so you actually can't slack off or try unorthodox things that will bring no benefit to your skills.

Of course, not every people enjoy this kind of instruction. I personally don't pan to be so tough when I reach the teaching stage, but until there I would always pick the toughest japanese senior available to teach me.

[Atama]

In my area we have a word for sensie like that "wankers". Using the agressive technique of smacking you in the armpit or striking your men hard merely shows lack of intelegence on his part, i guess some people can do kendo but can't put it into words. I have much respect for the sensie I train under but I also expect a little back in return and for a sensie to simply hit me excesivley without an explaination to what it was i was doing wrong, well I simply find that unacceptable.

and as for the sensie who hit you if he liked you ....well that just a lil bit too S&M for me

[Tashaki Nakata]

I have also had sensei like this one, but in the end you will understand that if you do everything right he will not be like this. You don't have to respect him, but you have to respect Kendo if you want to go somewhere.

[scbang]

What about sensei who doesn't like to be hit by a novice? Once I heard 7th dan tsukied beginner to the wall after he was hit ( point ) by him. Would there be any explanation for this?

SC

[inner_cent]

Originally posted by scbang
What about sensei who doesn't like to be hit by a novice? Once I heard 7th dan tsukied beginner to the wall after he was hit ( point ) by him. Would there be any explanation for this?

SC

Are you sure is because the 7th dan lose a point ? Most of the cases I know, even the so call "Evil one", they don't do that if you scored a point on you, they will happily tell you, and let you go (or something he/she turn serious and chop you up to pieces.)

Most of the time, I know the sensei tsuki you to teh wall, trip you over, wacking you backside.... all of those are to sort of reminding you your mistakes (eg. Tsuki because you keep moving back to avoid confrontation. Trip you over because your foot work is abit unstable... and wacking, well, to tell you to move you butt faster)

[munenmuso]

Yeah, I have a sensei like that, militant and strict, hate him the most but I learned from him the most also. Michaevelli once said,"its better to be feared than be loved".

[scbang]

inner_cent


You have a point but I think it's a combination of both. He definitely gets more violent after being hit which isn't very often.

SC

[Charlie]

Machiavelli: You should try to be both loved and feared, but if you can only be one, be feared.

[Tato]

The most cited writing from Machiavelli is The Prince, from where this sentence come. As many among you will remember, this book is a renaisance manual for what today we would call a dictator.

I don't belive that the fear/love couple is a good mix for a teacher. Kendo senseis inclouded.

Rei

[chidokan]

My teacher says be a 'devil' to your students and they will respect you and listen harder. This doesn't involve bashing the living daylights out of people , just making them work as hard as possible, knocking them down and building them up higher. It works, so if you get someone like that stick with it and you'll progress a lot faster!

Tim Hamilton

[munenmuso]

Originally posted by Tato
The most cited writing from Machiavelli is The Prince, from where this sentence come. As many among you will remember, this book is a renaisance manual for what today we would call a dictator.

I don't belive that the fear/love couple is a good mix for a teacher. Kendo senseis inclouded.

Rei

It's not just about dictatorship Tato, in political science, we call it political realism.:)

[GMason]

I've never really practiced with a sensei who was too bad, So I am talking from a view point that is not really too well informed, but I have been knocked down, bruised, Tsuki'ed and some people have even drawn Blood.

I've practiced with people who I don't really like fencing. In fact there is one person at my dojo who I don't like practcing against for various reason's (His Tsuki being noe of them!!)

But this is all part of the

"Kendo builds Character " Philosophy.

As far as I can see Kendo does not make you a better person because, you get to hit someone on the head with a stick. You do not become a more tolerant person once you can hit someone on the head.

You Build Character through being hit and hurt. You develop the feeling of......What ever this [Insert appropriate swear word] does to me he not going to make me quit !!! This is the character that Kendo fosters (IMHO).

It's the "I will not quit !! I will get through this" that develops a Kendoka. Sometimes it's the getting through a really hard practice which is most important (I've been to several practice's in Japan where I could hardly walk afterwards, but the next day I was dragged to a special practice by my sensei, and told you have to do your best and show the top sensei's how much you have learned since last time )

It's "YES I did that one extra cut that I was asked to do when I wanted to quit. Yes I came back and gave it my all after that [Insert appropriate swear word] Tsuki'ed me into the wall"

I'm not saying it is right for someone to beat crap out of you but .......... That feeling of oh Shit it's him again is often a good thing. Gives you something to strive for.

Just my 2 yen's worth

Sorry for rambling

[kendokamax]

eh 2 yen doesnt worth much..

[Confound]

Ben,

if you'd read my post, you would understand why I changed my mind. I actually confronted the teacher about it, and talked to him. Some of us are able to converse with our teachers in their native language (even if our reading skills aren't up to par). He gave a good explanation for what he did. I am able to be swayed by a good argument. Unlike some people, my thought aren't set in stone.

To make this relevant to the current thread:

Some sensei have a very strong 'tough love' approach. As repulsive and trite as that phrase may be, it explains the mindset well. The general idea is that the sensei cares for his students, but treats them strictly and severely. This prepares the students for shiai and keiko with other kendouka who may be extraordinarily tough.

It works. I respect him.

c

[GMason]

KendoMax....

Why the petulant reply,

I posted what I thought to be a well thought through and well stated point of view regarding the thread in question. Yes it rambled but, I consider the point to be valid.

If you disagree with what I say either, put your point across or don't reply at all. There is not need for a petulant and pointless reply.

[iwatekenshi]

Yes I agree too GMason. In a nutshell you have to go out there and prove yourself.

Have people forgotten?
Kendo does have its military origins so it's only natural that you'll have some militant sensei, with that tough love approach. It wouldn't be "BU"do.

Think of them as drill sergeants.

[John W]

Lets face it, opposites attract.

Soft student + Hard ass teacher = better student!



:)

[kendokamax]

no no i didnt mean to make a pelutant reply..
I really just meant that 2 yen doesnt worth much!


sorry if i'm often off track in subjects..I'm just a young kid with too much time.

[GMason]

KendoMax....

OK no problem, it was about 1:30am when I posted it so I was a bit tired ad problem jumped the gun a bit.

[mingshi]

You Build Character through being hit and hurt. You develop the feeling of......What ever this [Insert appropriate swear word] does to me he not going to make me quit !!! This is the character that Kendo fosters (IMHO).

Consider if maybe THAT is only something you interpret in this way... Rather then what the militant Sensei is actually doing...

Say, he really meant to be abusive a sadist. But you take that as education and training. Nothing's wrong with that to you or him, because you get the character building and all that, and he's got his ego fulfilled. That's mutualism.

You'd see people trained in the Army got a lot of those physical/verbal tortures everyday, just to get them tougher and stronger. Which does result in getting better soldiers. But the commander (or leader) is explicitly being abusive. Comparing to what they get in the Army, Kendo is really nothing. (As told by some Korean Kumdo people)

Of course this would apply to certain militant Sensei. Some are very friendly and explain things after practice. Others are just taking a piss out of juniors.

:(

[munenmuso]

Militant Sensei? Remember also that kendo is also a martial way, a military exercise during the war and the pre-war. Military instincts is always in order and supposedly in the bloodstreams of kendo cause it is deeply rooted in its history and existence.

I just imagine that during those old days how training would look like, thank heavens we are living in a more forgiving time where kendo has evolved in a more gentle art compared before. I think in those old days that militant sensei are the breed of sensei and part and parcel of normal day to day training and extremely harsh compared to our present standard. Kendo today is somewhat taken for granted as a hobby for spare time and if ever there is one militant sensei, this guy would assume the role of the terrorist in the club, but i think that they should be taken seriously and understanding. In short militant sensei are sharper sword, the more sharper the more they cut into your mind.

[Nishi]

I remember six months into my training being made to do kakarigieko until i almost collapsed, and when my sensie saw i couldnt go on, he attacked me in kakarigeiko fashion until i built up enough resolve ("hate",mabye), to take it upon myself to change the matter by any means, i was exausted and being hit and pushed aggressivley. When i attacked him back i was enraged...i had had enough, and for every time i was hit i wanted to hit back twice...i wanted to back my sensei into a corner and when i did he walked away and said "good!" If you consider my technique as still novice, then the lesson was fighting spirit...I was forced to use sheer will, to pressure my attacker....i dont believe in abuse on any level, however, we do not train hard enough in the western world. Now i dont need anybody to force this extreme training on me, i know the benifits, and i do it to myself.

[KhawMengLee]

hats the point of kakarigeiko. We usually do it with a 4 man motodachi team so you go through 4 guys without a break. By no3 you are gasping for breath and by 4 you are a zombie...but as my Sensei said...this is where your true kendo emerges.

[Shikai]

Two quotes for the thread:

"Some people cnage when the see the light, some people change when they feel the heat. Some people require blunt force trauma."

and,

"Higher conciousness through harder contact."

Maybe the militant sensei is militant to you because this is the best way for you to learn from him.

regards, Shikai

[Blah]

first I'd like to use another term, I don't really think militant is appropriate. Militant for me describes someone combative, active, concerned with how you do and interested in your progress. I would use these words to describe my kendo sensei, who has has never hit any of us in a harmful way or used force in the training.

I am totally against the methodology described above as the one used by 'militant sensei'. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but I believe it is less effective, and very less enjoyable, then a more comprehensive kind of teaching. I'd say it's even harmful for kendo, as it may drive people away from it (I'd certainly not have lessons with a sensei like that), and even in the case that this type of sensei only uses it to students he determines can take it, the people who observe will have a bad image. Let's say a friend of mine who was considering getting into kendo saw a sensei beating a student. He might not want to do it anymore, and think people involved with kendo are some sort of ogres.

I think it's more probable you'd get higher bluntness, rather than higher conciousness, through harder contact. There must be many books and studies about this, I'd say you can discuss it as you discuss how general teaching methodology has progressed over the ages. We don't hit people's hands with sticks in schools anymore, it is proven to be stupid.

For me, the more enjoyable kendo is, the more I practice it. I really look forward for every kendo lesson, and that helps me make progress and develop in it's practice. Also, the sensei I mention, despite being younger than many whom she teaches, is respected and always has attention, which goes to prove how force and 'tough approach' aren't necessary for this either. Also, she is the current south-american and absolute brazilian tournament champion, which also shows that you can be a nice open-minded, kind person to fight well. Her brother was champion in his category for the male south-american championship, and I'm pretty sure he has simliar teaching style and humour as her.

[Blah]

ah, just so it's clear. Me and my fellow kendo students also are driven to collapse from training sometimes. I'm not saying training shouldn't be intense. I have only discussed the use of force.

[Nishi]

I believe perminent and long term injury should be avoided when training....however, i am in full support of extremely serious training (there is a time and a place for fun training)...in fact in my dojo we are so used to kakerigieko in this fashion that the problem is not the attacker, but the reciever struggles to keep up.
We normally run 2 hour sessions...and after an hour and a half of kirikieshi, then kakerigieko/kirikieshi then kihon/waza, you are extremely tired (providing you have applied yourself).
After this comes jigieko, and if you've pushed youreslf to the limit, you should experience big, clean, smooth kendo. (true kendo)
Kakerigieko also gets rid of the 4 sickness's. confusion-hesitation-suprise-fear. When you train yourself to exhaustion, the mind becomes occupied with sufficient oxygen supply as opposed to "im going to get hit" or "This guy bothers me, im gonna cut men" When properly exausted, you can start to understand yourself (breathing, cutting without thought, ego, etc etc). Pushing yourself to the end is one of those lessons that cant be fully spoken about, it must be experienced over and over again.
As for the militant sensei, if his objectives where positive towards his students, then i say good for him. I hope i can train with him myself one day.

[Old Warrior]

I think this subject effects different generations in different ways. It also effects you differently depending how you were raised. I raised three children to adulthood and I engaged in a constant battle with my wife to avoid sheltering the kids and making them soft. I failed in conveying my point and all three kids were spoiled and all are lacking in toughness.

On the other hand, all of my circle of friends have served in the military and some are veterans of brutal combat. There is a dark place in each of us that we can draw upon for strength. At 54, I am the youngest of our crew. Today, I watched my buddy Rob, fence 5 people in succession, each 1/2 his age, and they all ran out of energy and focus before he did. A buystander, a physician, commented that he never saw anyone with that kind of energy and determination (especially since Rob is 63 and 25 pounds overweight). Some people just don't ever quit until their intellect says its time. They may drop, but they won't quit.

My point is that there may be some place in life and Kendo for tweaking a soft person, to encourage toughness. But for others, you might not like us if we get angry (with complements to "the Hulk").

[Nishi]

I am nodding my head in total agreement, and smiling at the new truth i have heard.....I think its very insightful when people relate Kendo to thier daily lives (this is how it should be, )....life is hard, and kendo is hard...As for your freind Rob, it certainly sounds like he is training correctly...i love it when people try to look deeper into kendo than just what they see....hats off too both of you!!!