When were you taught tsuki?

[mark]

What level were you when you were taught tsuki?

[Dave Fowler]

Wasn't going to answer this, then saw the other discussion and decided to answer anyways :-)

Most of the time i've seen it taught just prior to the person getting Shodan.

Most of the time though it was only used in uchikomi (sp?) and not in fighting.

I was told that in an informal match (i.e. not a tournament) that it was considered rude to tsuki a senior student unless they had tsuki'ed you first. I think the rational was that if you looked like you were able enough they'd let you know... though I have seen a few funny situations where a senior student thought the were all that and tsuki'ed a sensei. The sensei then promptly showed him how tsuki was to be done.... e.g read many many many tsuki's :-)

[Kendoboy]

I have only had a few practices where we have done tsuki practice. Other than that I try it once in a while if I know that my partner doesn't mind.

[Karaken]

I've never been taught..

[Optomitrist]

me too, I'm nikyu and we dont even use it in practice. It isn't worth the serious injury. (they used to train in it but people got hurt real bad)

[joekc6nlx]

With all of the responses to this, it's really up to your sensei when you should be taught tsuki. My sensei teaches us right off, even though we aren't encouraged to use it until we're in budo.

I've been attacked by my assistant sensei, who didn't hesitate to give me a devastating tsuki thrust, I've also used a tsuki in a tournament match.

Tsuki is also included in sanhonme kata, so it's best if you learn it before you try for ikkyu.

[Andoru]

tsuki in kata is quite different in the sense that it's really really controlled and that the kissaki does not even come close to aite's solar plexus.

My sensei does not actively teach tsuki to us (perhaps once or twice per year). Most of our source of information come from yudansha who does tsuki on each other and on me. I find that a good katate/morote tsuki has to come from a good kamae, just like the other cuts. The tsuki thrust has to come from the hips.

[Old Warrior]

What level were you when you were taught tsuki?

It is taught only at the "black belt" class at which time we were told never to use it except on a "black belt" and only then with extreme care.

[neko kenshi]

I've never seen it taught, but I haven't been around for that long. I see it used in shiai all the time though, especially higher ranks.

[D'Artagnan]

I was taught Tsuki quite early...

But, I teach the beginner's class at our dojo, and one of the first things I have worked on with them is the Bokuto Kihon Keiko Ho, no.1 is Men-Kote-Dou-Tsuki. Thus my beginners are first 'taught' tsuki on thier first or second class...

[Pan-Chan]

In my dojo tsuki isn't taught until shodan. But after it's taught, as long as the person you are fighting is shodan or higher, it's an acceptable technique to use.

Tsuki, in my mind, is taught at a higher level not only because of the dangers involved in the technique, but because you are attacking the opponents center, and need to have an understanding of the centerline and what can be accomplished by taking advantage of your opponent's.

Those are just two reasons I think, though. This isn't really a topic I am too terribly familiar with so I'd rather not throw my two cents around in here anymore than I already have. ^^;

[mingshi]

but because you are attacking the opponents center, and need to have an understanding of the centerline and what can be accomplished by taking advantage of your opponent's.
So just WHEN are you gonna introduce the concept of "taking the centre" without posing a threat of tsuki?

Beginners tends to lean forward, attack with their hands and not their bodies because there is no threat of getting tsuki, or that they have no idea of where the center is. Without controlling the centre first, they go sideways or turn before cutting....

(me included)

There goes chicken and egg again... :rolleyes:

[The great I AM]

I was taught to tsuki by my senpai before I got into armour. They were ready for it, and taught it properly (to my mind anyway, not just saying "ok now do tsuki..."), so I was completley ungraded at the time. Hasn't done me any harm. My tsuki is not too bad, and I've scored twice with it in competitions.

[Hisham]

I was taught tsuki before my ikyu but was warned in case i tried it, to do it the right way and that i should be prepared for a "heavy retaliation" if i failed at it :D

[Charlie]

So just WHEN are you gonna introduce the concept of "taking the centre" without posing a threat of tsuki?

Beginners tends to lean forward, attack with their hands and not their bodies because there is no threat of getting tsuki, or that they have no idea of where the center is. Without controlling the centre first, they go sideways or turn before cutting....

(me included)

There goes chicken and egg again... :rolleyes:

Interesting, Jenny. Hmm. Doesn't controlling center occur regardless of the threat of tsuki? Controlling the center to me means that you have a dominant position from which all attacks may be launched.

My experience has been the same as Dave's, normally it's taught after shodan and then with limitations.

[KendokaJim]

I've never been actively taught tsuki, but I have received a few in my short kendo career. It is pretty, ummm... intimidating the first time you get one. I've also been victim of a few failed tsuki attempts. It usually glances off to one side, and my opponent's kensen goes between my shoulder and the men-dare.
I'm only samkyu, but I'm also 22, so maybe my sempai think that I'm mature enough to deal with it.

I've only tried it a handful of times, once with success. I must admit, it was pretty cool to land one.

I'm glad someone mentioned that it's disrespectful to tsuki senior kenshi. I had no idea!

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm glad someone mentioned that it's disrespectful to tsuki senior kenshi. I had no idea!
One point of view is that it's disrespectful. Another is that it's simply saying to the senior "I'm good enough that I don't need your teaching kendo, give me your best kendo". Which can be seen as arrogant. And besides, you really don't want your teacher's best kendo, you want their teaching kendo.

[Hisham]

Why would it be disrespectfull to attempt a tsuki against you sensei :puzzled: and when you're fighting are you trying to focus on who and what rank is your opponent or giving it your best?

edited: Neil answered my question so don't mind my post.

[JByrd]

One point of view is that it's disrespectful. Another is that it's simply saying to the senior "I'm good enough that I don't need your teaching kendo, give me your best kendo". Which can be seen as arrogant. And besides, you really don't want your teacher's best kendo, you want their teaching kendo.

In general, I think that's good advice.

Not too long ago I was doing keiko with a 6 dan teacher who kept forestalling me with his tip on my bare throat every time I attacked men. Every kote attack I made, he'd kill me with an oji-waza. Do was not open. I tried to take control of center by attacking his shinai, but he countered by dropping his tip down, disengaging with my shinai.

When he lowered his kamae my tsuki attack was automatic, and it landed nicely. Then I thought, "uh-oh," and braced myself for the worst. To my relief, the sensei did not take my head off, he just raised the pressure another notch, and I got no more chances to strike.

Maybe I dodged the bullet there, but it seemed like not taking the opening would have shown poor logic, and maybe even a lack of courage, on my part.

[KansasCityKC]

Greetings All;

At our dojo, tsuki is taught very early. I tend to have students that are young adults or older. They of course don't have the concept of moving from the center ( unless there is some previous martial arts experience ). As stated earlier they might try to over extend in their attacks. Or just as bad, we usually tend to make students swing "All the way up ...." correct? So they tend to rise up on the balls of their feet way too high and lose the abiltiy to control their motion. To get them to have a better idea of center we use the tsuki attack in early practice drills. This attack brings them quicker to attacking forward not from above. The newer students will not attack to the normal tsuki target but to the open hand of the oppontent that is held at the right level. They feel less intimidated that they might make a mistake and therefor can concetrate on the technique better.

Now, mind you I won't let them use the technique in keiko for a while but they need the practice. Also prior to them using it or to it being used on them, they need to be taught how to accept the technique so they won't get hurt when they're caught by it. No one has mentioned that yet. You can tell them about keeping their center and all for the attack but its just as important especially for the new Kendoka to be trained in being mentally prepared to accept the attack and responding to it with the appropriate compensations as quick as possible in order not to incur an injury. And unless your Senseis have dictated otherwise it is best to expect and incorporate any attack that you've been taught while facing an opponent.

You can learn a lot when you receive a proper technique as well as against a sloppy one!!

[Dinosaur]

We are taught tsuki quite early, usually before even getting to bogu. If it's tsuki practice, everyone does it. When I was a beginner, I was somewhat surprised that even I was told to do katate tsuki along with others.

However, we are advised not to use it in jigeiko in kyu levels which is sensible considering that I'm not that proficient at tsuki'ing even stationary targets. However, I'm tempted to try it each time one of the sempais uses Jodan on me. :)

[chilenokenshi]

I was taught tsuki when I was shodan, anyway I can tell you about my japan experience, there is quite rare that they teach you tsuki before you enter to the university, and almost all the people in the Kendo-bu were at least 2 dan and the great part of it was 3 dan, in the kendo classes we practice tsuki as any other attack, and in fact a thing that it is not very good is to do a tsuki in your sensei beacause is considered a falt of REI unless your sensei told you that you can do tsuki in the keiko with him beafore to help you impruve your technic. Anyway if you want to have a sand clock style neck go ahead and tsuki your japanese sensei :)

[TKO]

Learn Tsuki-Do before Dan, then Tsuki to Throat after...

[Eldritch Knight]

I'm just starting on my tsuki as a shodan. My experience in Japan, though, has shown me that no one learns until they get their nidan. Usually this is halfway through their first year in high school, but its usually taught outside of practice, so as not to take away practice time from more complex waza. One of our 2nd year senpai managed to score a point with tsuki in taikai, so I'd guess she knew it pretty well.

[#2 mouse]

To paraphrase many articles from many respected sources:

One should approach keiko with a good spirit, to attack with conviction without worry about recieving attacks from their opponent, and without the extensive use of defensive techniques unless it creates the opportunity for an attack.

Your opponent's attacks will show you your weak areas, you should try to correct your kendo to not allow those openings.

I have been taught that you should give your opponent your best kendo, doing any less is disrespectful. If that means that your opponent leaves an opening for tsuki, you should attack it.

That said, ALL strikes in kendo should be properly executed and placed. Doing otherwise can be dangerous and is no fun for the reciever.

Most of us do this for fun.....

[Alex_McGrady]

What level were you when you were taught tsuki?

I was taught tsuki at 3-dan and was not allowed to use it before. Even if I had the confidence to use it before reaching 3-dan, if my sensei saw he would say "you are not advanced enough for that yet, just stuck to the basics."

Alex

[kendokamax]

that debate again?

I was teach tsuki when I was a beginner in bogu. I started regulary using it after my 2nd year in kendo.

before that I was only men men men men..no imagination hahaha

[grasshopper_r2]

Tsuki was taught to me as one of the basics of Kendo, however, we were not allowed to use it in Keiko until after Shodan.

[Lloromannic]

At our dojo it is taught to those who sensei thinks are ready. It is usually before ikkyu and done in kihon exercises and sometimes as part of waza.
As to when to use it sensei says to do it only on those who have been taught how to do it, including and especially him. After you are taught tsuki he starts hitting you with it occasionally so you know how to react and lose fear.

[delphideo]

We were taught tsuki about after a year, mostly for those who are going for ikkyu. We can only tsuki our peers, but never the newbies or senseis unless told otherwise. Also we start tsukiing at the mune not the tsuki dare until we can strike fast and quickly remove the kenzen after each strike and do tsuki with the whole body and not only the hands. It's easy against an imaginary opponent, but in jigeiko it's easier said then done. It's quite a risky waza so we do lots of kihon before.

[nodachi]

I've never been taught tsuki and I've been through 3 different dojos from moving and have been doing kendo for about 3 years. I know some people who practice tsuki at home against the wall, but I never see it practiced at practice, or if it is at dojo I visit, it's very brief. Maybe I'm thinking very paranoidly or very traditionally, I don't know, but I agree with waiting to learn tsuki for a long time. I am sure my sempai and sensei could tsuki me to death, but when people try tsuki early on it just never seems to work anyway. It's so easy to defend. Granted I am not saying that I have a flawless center that can't be penetrated, but as long as your center is not wide open, it's really easy to fend off a tsuki attempt from people usually anyway. Part of me thinks that all the fine details of doing tsuki properly and at good opportunities and being able to penetrate your opponents center without easily being deflected requires more time than one usually puts in to get to ikkyu or even shodan or nidan.

Granted I am still just a newbie, but I don't worry or feel pressure from people who try tsuki too early because it's just not that threatening. I think it takes a long time of developing everything else before tsuki becomes effective.

[kendokamax]

We were taught tsuki about after a year, mostly for those who are going for ikkyu. We can only tsuki our peers, but never the newbies or senseis unless told otherwise. Also we start tsukiing at the mune not the tsuki dare until we can strike fast and quickly remove the kenzen after each strike and do tsuki with the whole body and not only the hands. It's easy against an imaginary opponent, but in jigeiko it's easier said then done. It's quite a risky waza so we do lots of kihon before.


isnt mune tsuki more dangerous than normal tsuki? well for me it's more scary since shinai slide off easely.

but ya receiving tsuki from a new person is scary sometimes too, people poke with their shinai!

[chilenokenshi]

I also think that since the tsuki is one of the attacks that could be dangerous to the opponent, is really important that you must be compleatly sure that you are able to do it, if you don't have the conviction or you doubt in the moment that you want to do the tsuki is better to just don't do it, is the same with the trainning I guess

[mingshi]

I've never been taught tsuki ...but I never see it practiced at practice...
A couple of times I have done the following during kihon keiko, with a partner, 5 times each:

Mune tsuki
Tsuki on Tsuki tare
Tsuki Men
Men uchi

This definitely helps my understanding of holding the centre to the last 0.01 second of shomen uchi.

Basically the argument goes both ways:
You need to know how to hold the centre first before doing Tsuki.
or
Tsuki practice helps you understand your centre more.

Tsuki is dangerous.
or
If you don't practice enough Tsuki, you ended up doing it improper or simple keep missing the opportunities.

:rolleyes:

[#2 mouse]

Basically the argument goes both ways:
You need to know how to hold the centre first before doing Tsuki.
or
Tsuki practice helps you understand your centre more.

Tsuki is dangerous.
or
If you don't practice enough Tsuki, you ended up doing it improper or simple keep missing the opportunities.
:rolleyes:

Now THAT'S what I've been trying to say!

[Gerald Audette]

This definitely helps my understanding of holding the centre to the last 0.01 second of shomen uchi.

Basically the argument goes both ways:
You need to know how to hold the centre first before doing Tsuki.
or
Tsuki practice helps you understand your centre more.

Well put. Holding centre that slip second longer can make all the difference.

I think I was taught tsuki after I reached shodan, though I don't use it much. The ability to have a good tsuki can allow you to rock your opponent back and then take a men (seen it happen a few times, tried once or twice myself to little success :wink: )

[mark]

[QUOTE=mingshi]A couple of times I have done the following during kihon keiko, with a partner, 5 times each:

Mune tsuki
Tsuki on Tsuki tare
Tsuki Men
Men uchi



Menshi What do you mean when you say Tsuki on Tsuki tare, or Tsuki Men? :confused2
Thanks

[The great I AM]

The Tsuki-dare is what most people call a "tsuki pad" (sometimes also called the "nodo" which just means throat) and Tsuki men is a nidan waza.

Am I right Jenny?

[mark]

The Tsuki-dare is what most people call a "tsuki pad" (sometimes also called the "nodo" which just means throat) and Tsuki men is a nidan waza.

Am I right Jenny?

Just wanted to know if you trained Tsuki men ie. hitting the Mengane tsuki. Who knows someone might teach it as a foil to throw your opponent off balance :) It sure would scare me to death. BTW I have never heard of hitting the mengane on purpose.

[The great I AM]

I wouldn't reccomend hitting the mengane to anybody, its just down right dangerous and is the fast track to a neck injury for your partner. Tsuki Men is definately not a tsuki to the men, first tsuki the tsukidare, then strike men. Nothing else.

[DCPan]

Intentional Tsuki to the Mengane... BAD

That's how people get hurt, esp when your partner don't maintain their shinai....

Didn't hear about the guy who died in Germany from broken shinai into eye, I take it...though that was accident, not intentional.

[mark]

Intentional Tsuki to the Mengane... BAD

That's how people get hurt, esp when your partner don't maintain their shinai....

Didn't hear about the guy who died in Germany from broken shinai into eye, I take it...though that was accident, not intentional.

I totally agree with you!

[mark]

Speak of the devil!
Just talked about that today and then I stumble on...
There is a pic of tsuki to the mengane promoted as a valid technique in our forum section "Misc event" under "World Samurai Challenge". The site is
http://www.classicalkendo.org/tournament/


I still don't think it is a good idea to intentionally tsuki a mengane!

[DCPan]

Speak of the devil!

I still don't think it is a good idea to intentionally tsuki a mengane!

Kendo begins and ends with REI can be applied on so many levels.

Respecting your responsibility in your opponent's well-being falls into that category, IMHO.

Your shinai should not be making contact with a non-scoring area...ideally.

[DCPan]

Speak of the devil!
Just talked about that today and then I stumble on...
There is a pic of tsuki to the mengane promoted as a valid technique in our forum section "Misc event" under "World Samurai Challenge". The site is
http://www.classicalkendo.org/tournament/


If you are talking about the 2nd picture down, that's NOT a tsuki to the men-gane...that's a men-strike done by the guy on the left which missed because the guy on the right leaned back and moved out of the way....You can tell because of the reverse flex of the shinai...he has reached full extension and depth, so the tip dipped past the extension line due to the te-no-uchi beating air.

I wonder about that website though...using a bunch of Japanese tournament snapshot to promote an American event in Ohio...*sigh*

[Keenan]

I was taught tsuki before before Ikkyu, and it was taught to all the kendoka in bogu. I have studied at two dojos italy and two in the us, but have never been told not to use tsuki nor have i been made to fear tsuki. In fact i have only been against using one handed tsuki because it leaves myself too open. I don't think this waza is as dangerous as people as you all are making it seem. As long as the bogu is worn correctly, with the men tied tight, there is no danger.

[Sith013]

We were not taught tsuki till shodan, and this only happens if our sensei feels you are capable of performing the move properly and you have the right control.

[Fonsz]

We were taught before Ikkyu but with your left handpalm across your throat so that beginners knew what was expected. Also it was supposed to be a short stab and not a hard thrust. Afterwards people knew what to aim for when strikin oki or zashi men. It also made them aware of their chudan no kamae and what to look for. For some like me it worked.