Specifics of Kenjutsu.

[Light Samurai]

I always see people refering to some kenjutsu styles better then others.. is there a way to comapre, or possibly a chart? Also, I wouldn't mind seeing a overview of how the most common styles worked.(I.e Tenne-Rishin-Ru used alot of thrusts.)

[Kaoru]

I always see people refering to some kenjutsu styles better then others.. is there a way to comapre, or possibly a chart? Also, I wouldn't mind seeing a overview of how the most common styles worked.(I.e Tenne-Rishin-Ru used alot of thrusts.)

When e-budo gets back up and running, you should go ask there too. They'll give you so much information you won't know what to do with it. :D There are a lot more Kenjutsu guys there than here. Maybe Hyaku-sensei will comment here. He does Kenjutsu.

Kaoru

[Light Samurai]

When e-budo gets back up and running, you should go ask there too. They'll give you so much information you won't know what to do with it. :D There are a lot more Kenjutsu guys there than here. Maybe Hyaku-sensei will comment here. He does Kenjutsu.

Kaoru
Thanks alot kaoru-san. I was there once, got flamed, and left. But yeah. I might just browse there for the info.

[KenShi_JoB]

Only way to test their effectiveness is through fight with shinken to the death, and that is not possible(99.999%) anymore.

[KenShi_JoB]

No wonder why you got flame asking this kind of question. To compare which ryu is better than which will result in a flame war. People usually think their ryu is the best.


Anyway asking about special characteristic such as tennen rishin ryu has many trust technique is educated question IMHO.

[mingshi]

I always see people refering to some kenjutsu styles better then others... Blah blah blah...
E-budo folks have a problem if you don't get flamed.

It's like saying some dojo is better than the others and asking which is the best dojo in the USA. A lame question asked for the sake of being flamed.

For the moment check the list at
www.koryu.com

[R A Sosnowski]

No wonder why you got flame asking this kind of question. To compare which ryu is better than which will result in a flame war. People usually think their ryu is the best.

Anyway asking about special characteristic such as tennen rishin ryu has many trust technique is educated question IMHO.

I had a conversation about "better" in a slightly different context after class last night.

My buddy said that it is like asking "Which car is the best?"

And the reply is "Best at what?" Aspects like "highway speed," "off-road maneuverability," "fuel efficient," and "power to tow heavy loads" come to mind.

In other words, it's a matter of context.

Kenjutsu styles evolved to fill the need to survive under a set of circumstances embedded in a particular place and time.

Ultimately, it is not the style that matters, it's the practitioner.

HTH

[R A Sosnowski]

I always see people refering to some kenjutsu styles better then others.. is there a way to comapre, or possibly a chart? Also, I wouldn't mind seeing a overview of how the most common styles worked.(I.e Tenne-Rishin-Ru used alot of thrusts.)

Not much in English to help you out, and I do not know if there is anything like this in Japanese.

The style you mention, Tennen Rishin Ryu (http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product610.html) was a style practiced by the Shinsen Gumi, and was used for a very short time [~1850 - ~1868].

Historically, the Shinsen Gumi come off as a band of vigilante thugs who specialized in group assasination (many of them to cut down one or two people). See Ryoma: Life of a Renaissance Samurai by Romulus Hillsborough; BTW, his Shogun's Most Dreaded Samurai Corps: The Bloody Legacy Of The Shinsengumi is due to be released at the end of the month.

So, we have a style, Tennen Rishin Ryu, and its context, the Shinsen Gumi and their tactics during the decline and fall of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

I have seen the DVD. Interesting style but it's not for me. I'll stay with Niten Ichi Ryu and Kasumi Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu.

[Hisham]

I second R A Sosnowski, and based on what i've read (hope i can get to practice someday) and as an example of how the ryu adapted to there times is the "Full armor on" style of fighting that was the trend before the Tokugawa era and the unarmored style one which has survived to this day.

[Karathos]

A style is always as good as the person who uses it. What really matters is the person you're fighting, not the style he is using.

[Hyaku]

I always see people refering to some kenjutsu styles better then others..

As a kenjutsu practitioner it's not a question I would ask. Usually we discuss certain similarities we have and go overboard complimenting each other on our present level of achievement.

Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai get together and embu this weekend. I doubt if anyone there would be rude enough to ask that either.

The main thing always mentioned in speeches is, "Why are there so few of us that are interested?"

[Slade]

The main thing always mentioned in speeches is, "Why are there so few of us that are interested?"

I would imagine this is because a majority hear Japanese sword and think The Last Samurai and Kill Bill but when they begin training they find its very much NOT what Hollywood has glamorized. If you haven't mastered the spinning backflip beheading waza by the first week they start to think that this was not what they had in mind and quit. Its the few of us that see beyond the "flashing steel" to that deeper meaning that we desire that stick with it and want to continue to learn.

[Hyaku]

I always see people refering to some kenjutsu styles better then others.. is there a way to comapre, or possibly a chart? Also, I wouldn't mind seeing a overview of how the most common styles worked.(I.e Tenne-Rishin-Ru used alot of thrusts.)

There seems to be similarities between ryu of the same era. Some common things are the use of strong hip twisting movement, avoidance with attack and most of all the different grip of a weapon that incorporates a different set of arm muscles. These similarities between ryu also show that things have not changed that much over the years.

Then you have to add a variation in the philosophical outlook of each ryu. But referring to some styles to be better than other is not a good philosophy. It's certainly not an ideal upheld by some of the more well known ryu.

Did you mean Tennen Rishin Ryu?. Niten Ichiryu also uses a thrust as a fundamental movement and no cuts from above the head.

The main objective of most has to be a strong avoidance of adaptation. A practice of years of fundamentals with the added individual character of the person concerned and the addition of referring to a specific written text if any.

I doubt if you will see any comparison charts. That would take a lot of practice in more than one ryu. In any case ryu are not disposed to writing things down. The value of what you learn is in your hands to be handed on the others. There has always been a certain amount of protectionism in not putting things on paper unless the true meanings are well hidden within.

[Charuzu]

I would imagine this is because a majority hear Japanese sword and think The Last Samurai and Kill Bill but when they begin training they find its very much NOT what Hollywood has glamorized. If you haven't mastered the spinning backflip beheading waza by the first week they start to think that this was not what they had in mind and quit. Its the few of us that see beyond the "flashing steel" to that deeper meaning that we desire that stick with it and want to continue to learn.

Why would anyone be like that. I kove working on the basics more then anything else. In our last class when sensei announced that we will be doing nothing but the basics for the next few lessions I was very excited! ^o^

[Slade]

Why would anyone be like that. I kove working on the basics more then anything else. In our last class when sensei announced that we will be doing nothing but the basics for the next few lessions I was very excited! ^o^

I think that at nearly 16 you haven't experienced the immediacy of the older generations. The older you get the faster things must be to fit in the day. Instant coffee, fast food, high-speed internet, PDAs and cellphones. If it isn't happening now, then it's not fast enough. Its those people that you find quitting when they learn it will take 10 years to get good. Not expert but just good. That's not fast enough for them so they quit. There's few of us that hear good and go, "ok, I can live with that" and just train. We are the few that strive to keep the art alive in ourselves and ultimately with others we may one day teach.

[nodaka]

When e-budo gets back up and running, you should go ask there too. They'll give you so much information you won't know what to do with it. :D There are a lot more Kenjutsu guys there than here. Maybe Hyaku-sensei will comment here. He does Kenjutsu.

Kaoru

I would be very sceptical about anything i read on e-budo, i have read threads on there where they say Ushiba Sensei (the founder of Aikido) was a foolish old man, that had no clue.

usually people that make these types of comments spent to much time at their computer and not enough time at the dojo.

[ScottUK]

There are donkeys that have no understanding of their art and there are serious dedicated (and high-graded) practitioners of the martial arts.

Hyaku (named above) is one of the latter. He's thought of quite highly by many (including myself), so please consider your posts before you shoot off at the mouth. :angry:

[Kingofmyrrh]

I would be very sceptical about anything i read on e-budo, i have read threads on there where they say Ushiba Sensei (the founder of Aikido) was a foolish old man, that had no clue.
Have you ever actually read any of his lectures on Omotokyo? They haven't been translated as far as I know, but until you've got the full picture, you might want to hold off your decision as to his state of mind. I'm putting him firmly in the 'great fighter, pretty loopy' box.

[mad_god]

I would be very sceptical about anything i read on e-budo, i have read threads on there where they say Ushiba Sensei (the founder of Aikido) was a foolish old man, that had no clue.

Don't think here is different. You'll find similar people everywhere.

[Kaoru]

There are donkeys that have no understanding of their art and there are serious dedicated (and high-graded) practitioners of the martial arts.

Hyaku (named above) is one of the latter. He's thought of quite highly by many (including myself), so please consider your posts before you shoot off at the mouth. :angry:

Exactly! :) I agree.

Kaoru

[nodaka]

Have you ever actually read any of his lectures on Omotokyo? They haven't been translated as far as I know, but until you've got the full picture, you might want to hold off your decision as to his state of mind. I'm putting him firmly in the 'great fighter, pretty loopy' box.

I did not mean anyone in particular, i mean that in general some people talk about a person as if they had known them.

A lot of people over there speak of someone i know to be an incredible person and martial artist, as if they where a peice of crap. Non of these people have ever met this person or seem him in action.

[splice]

I did not mean anyone in particular, i mean that in general some people talk about a person as if they had known them.

A lot of people over there speak of someone i know to be an incredible person and martial artist, as if they where a peice of crap. Non of these people have ever met this person or seem him in action.

Ah, so you're angry at e-budo because some people have badmouthed a teacher you know. Who would that person be, exactly? Why is he being badmouthed and why do you know different?

[nodaka]

Ah, so you're angry at e-budo because some people have badmouthed a teacher you know. Who would that person be, exactly? Why is he being badmouthed and why do you know different?

i'm not angry, just think that it is not nice to talk about someone, when they are not someone you know, or know anything about.

For the example that i speak of, i know different because i spend time with the person and in the time i have known him i have learned to respect him a great deal, not just for the person that he is, but for the martial artist that he is.

I really do not want to start a flame thing and do not want to see his name slandered. It does't just anger me but it pains my heart. And people should not be judged on the bases of what others say, but on the actions they perform.

[splice]

i'm not angry, just think that it is not nice to talk about someone, when they are not someone you know, or know anything about.


Obviously they'd have to know something about the person to criticise them.


For the example that i speak of, i know different because i spend time with the person and in the time i have known him i have learned to respect him a great deal, not just for the person that he is, but for the martial artist that he is.


And the students of many fakes the world over have the same respect for their teachers. I'm not calling that person a fake, mind you. But there is no difference between the respect that a student gives to a 25-year old master teaching the old secret art of Bullshitzu ryu and the respect a student gives to an 85-year old menkyo kaiden of Kashima Shinryu. Neither would accept their teacher being disrespected. For all his protests, the first guy is still studying an art that is not legit.



I really do not want to start a flame thing and do not want to see his name slandered. It does't just anger me but it pains my heart. And people should not be judged on the bases of what others say, but on the actions they perform.

There are many things that can be said about a person without observing their actions. For example, legitimacy in the koryu arts is determined by a lineage and the passing of teaching certifications to certain people. You do not need to see the person to establish whether they are legit or not.

Knowing e-budo, this likely is a scuffle over legitimacy. Let me tell you something that might help you out: being a good person, being a good martial artist, and being a legit instructor in an art are very different things. You can be the best person in the world and the best martial artist, that doesn't make you a legit teacher. There is much to be said about all three qualities, and ideally you want to see all three in a teacher. But having one or two of those qualities doesn't mean you automatically have the others. Regardless of all other attributes, if a teacher lies or misrepresents his lineage and legitimacy, all bets are off.

This is all, of course, based on the assumption that all this is about a legitimacy dispute in regards to what the guy teaches and where he claims he got the instruction. That seems to usually be the case at e-budo, and students of frauds that are exposed there usually say things very similar to you (good person, good martial artist, etc.). Otherwise, feel free to ignore the message, but then it's not like you're saying anything of substance about the teacher to which we can respond.

So, yeah, someone you like has been lambasted at e-budo, you don't like that, and so you tell people to not frequent e-budo. Well, without presenting your case, without knowing who the guy is, without knowing what he was called out on, it's quite hard to know whether your criticism is founded or not. I'd suggest people lurk at e-budo for a while and make up their own minds. No reason to be so skeptical based on the so-far unsubstantiated assertions you presented.

[nodaka]

Obviously they'd have to know something about the person to criticise them.



And the students of many fakes the world over have the same respect for their teachers. I'm not calling that person a fake, mind you. But there is no difference between the respect that a student gives to a 25-year old master teaching the old secret art of Bullshitzu ryu and the respect a student gives to an 85-year old menkyo kaiden of Kashima Shinryu. Neither would accept their teacher being disrespected. For all his protests, the first guy is still studying an art that is not legit.




There are many things that can be said about a person without observing their actions. For example, legitimacy in the koryu arts is determined by a lineage and the passing of teaching certifications to certain people. You do not need to see the person to establish whether they are legit or not.

Knowing e-budo, this likely is a scuffle over legitimacy. Let me tell you something that might help you out: being a good person, being a good martial artist, and being a legit instructor in an art are very different things. You can be the best person in the world and the best martial artist, that doesn't make you a legit teacher. There is much to be said about all three qualities, and ideally you want to see all three in a teacher. But having one or two of those qualities doesn't mean you automatically have the others. Regardless of all other attributes, if a teacher lies or misrepresents his lineage and legitimacy, all bets are off.

This is all, of course, based on the assumption that all this is about a legitimacy dispute in regards to what the guy teaches and where he claims he got the instruction. That seems to usually be the case at e-budo, and students of frauds that are exposed there usually say things very similar to you (good person, good martial artist, etc.). Otherwise, feel free to ignore the message, but then it's not like you're saying anything of substance about the teacher to which we can respond.

So, yeah, someone you like has been lambasted at e-budo, you don't like that, and so you tell people to not frequent e-budo. Well, without presenting your case, without knowing who the guy is, without knowing what he was called out on, it's quite hard to know whether your criticism is founded or not. I'd suggest people lurk at e-budo for a while and make up their own minds. No reason to be so skeptical based on the so-far unsubstantiated assertions you presented.

i'm not saying don't go there, just be skeptical, In fact one should be skeptical of everything and everyone.

To be honest i really do not care what the mayority of people think. I'm not really out to prove anything about anybody.

And a good point you make about frauds, sometimes i take out time to go to other dojos and see what they teach. And mpost of the time i leave in a state of amazement at how bad some people teach their martial art.

[ScottUK]

Nodaka - just been reading your profile. What styles of iai and kenjutsu do you practice?

[mad_god]

Obviously they'd have to know something about the person to criticise them.
And the students of many fakes the world over have the same respect for their teachers. I'm not calling that person a fake, mind you. But there is no difference between the respect that a student gives to a 25-year old master teaching the old secret art of Bullshitzu ryu and the respect a student gives to an 85-year old menkyo kaiden of Kashima Shinryu. Neither would accept their teacher being disrespected. For all his protests, the first guy is still studying an art that is not legit.
There are many things that can be said about a person without observing their actions. For example, legitimacy in the koryu arts is determined by a lineage and the passing of teaching certifications to certain people. You do not need to see the person to establish whether they are legit or not.
Knowing e-budo, this likely is a scuffle over legitimacy. Let me tell you something that might help you out: being a good person, being a good martial artist, and being a legit instructor in an art are very different things. You can be the best person in the world and the best martial artist, that doesn't make you a legit teacher. There is much to be said about all three qualities, and ideally you want to see all three in a teacher. But having one or two of those qualities doesn't mean you automatically have the others. Regardless of all other attributes, if a teacher lies or misrepresents his lineage and legitimacy, all bets are off.
This is all, of course, based on the assumption that all this is about a legitimacy dispute in regards to what the guy teaches and where he claims he got the instruction. That seems to usually be the case at e-budo, and students of frauds that are exposed there usually say things very similar to you (good person, good martial artist, etc.). Otherwise, feel free to ignore the message, but then it's not like you're saying anything of substance about the teacher to which we can respond.
So, yeah, someone you like has been lambasted at e-budo, you don't like that, and so you tell people to not frequent e-budo. Well, without presenting your case, without knowing who the guy is, without knowing what he was called out on, it's quite hard to know whether your criticism is founded or not. I'd suggest people lurk at e-budo for a while and make up their own minds. No reason to be so skeptical based on the so-far unsubstantiated assertions you presented.

Read again, the poster is saying e-budo people criticized the founder of Aikido, Ueshiba sensei. So, talking about "legitimacy" here is pointless.
The personality of these people that criticized Ueshiba is the real matter.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Read again, the poster is saying e-budo people criticized the founder of Aikido, Ueshiba sensei. So, talking about "legitimacy" here is pointless.
The personality of these people that criticized Ueshiba is the real matter.
I'm afraid that it's you who's misinterpreted this time... read post #21 again.
Anyway, why not criticize the founder of aikido? He's not immune from critical comment, is he? After all, you've criticized people here who are generally regarded as quite senior (which is not something I'm not necessarily attacking you for, but merely reminding you of a fact).

[mad_god]

I'm afraid that it's you who's misinterpreted this time... read post #21 again.
Anyway, why not criticize the founder of aikido? He's not immune from critical comment, is he? After all, you've criticized people here who are generally regarded as quite senior (which is not something I'm not necessarily attacking you for, but merely reminding you of a fact).

Yes, nobody is immune from criticism, even God!
But he mentioned the name of Ueshiba and the other poster replied with legitimacy. Is there something I am missing here??

Post #21
"A lot of people over there speak of someone i know to be an incredible person and martial artist, as if they where a peice of crap. Non of these people have ever met this person or seem him in action."

Is he talking about Ueshiba?
Or is this a complete different issue??

And for criticizing people here, well, maybe I didn't meet them, but their posts say by themselves...

[Kingofmyrrh]

It is indeed a separate issue.