Keishi Ryu

[KenShi_JoB]

Do anyone here ever saw Keishi Ryu Gekken Kata? It's 10 Kata of Japanese Police. It is formed since Meiji Era. Please share your knowledge to your fellow kenshi. :)

[Nazo]

I dont know much about that police kata, I just know its a mixture of other sword schools...and was formed at the late 1800's..., theres some info at this website http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/06TIN90.htm not much but if your interested you could check it out and do a search in google, with the names of the sword schools it is made up with.....

[R A Sosnowski]

I dont know much about that police kata, I just know its a mixture of other sword schools...and was formed at the late 1800's..., theres some info at this website http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/06TIN90.htm not much but if your interested you could check it out and do a search in google, with the names of the sword schools it is made up with.....

I have been researching the question for a few weeks.

The few leads that I got turned out to be dead ends. I do have one new lead to trace next week.

I do know that the Iai portion of Keishicho Ryu is still practiced.

Anything on the Gekken Kata is just not quite visible.

[ben]

Last year in Melbourne we were treated to an impromptu demonstration of Keishicho Ryu kata by Chiba and Sato sensei from Tokyo Metro Police when they visited the Kenshikan. They had just run through the new Kihon Waza Keiko Ho and then Chiba sensei seemed to make a suggestion to his colleague. I'm not sure if it was a spur of the moment thing or if they planned it, but the ran through all 10(?) kata. Chiba sensei announced each kata's name and ryu before starting. Some I could make out, like Hokushin Itto Ryu, Mugai Ryu and Tatsumi Ryu. Some I could not.

It was a real privilege to see.

b

[KenShi_JoB]

Last year in Melbourne we were treated to an impromptu demonstration of Keishicho Ryu kata by Chiba and Sato sensei from Tokyo Metro Police when they visited the Kenshikan. They had just run through the new Kihon Waza Keiko Ho and then Chiba sensei seemed to make a suggestion to his colleague. I'm not sure if it was a spur of the moment thing or if they planned it, but the ran through all 10(?) kata. Chiba sensei announced each kata's name and ryu before starting. Some I could make out, like Hokushin Itto Ryu, Mugai Ryu and Tatsumi Ryu. Some I could not.

It was a real privilege to see.

b

I envy you.

[KenShi_JoB]

Ben, can you try to describe what it like? It's have anything special to it? or it just generic like kendo kata?

[DCPan]

Go buy the September 1999 (#283) issue of Kendo Nippon.

That issue walk through ALL of them one by one...with Chiba sensei and Sato sensei as model.

#1 Hasso - Jikishinkage Ryu
#2 Henka - Kurama Ryu
#3 "Eight Sky Cut" - "Something Island" Ryu.
#4 Maki-otoshi - Tatsumi Ryu
#5 Gedan no Tsuki - Hokushin Itto Ryu
#6 Aun - Asayama Ichiden Ryu
#7 Ichi-Ni no Tachi - Jigen Ryu
#8 Uchi-otoshi - Shindo Munen Ryu
#9 "Broken Fold" Hassha? - Yagyu Ryu
#10 Gurai-Izume - "Mirror Heart Clear Wisdom" Ryu

The "" are where I can't read the Japanese.

FWIW.

[KenShi_JoB]

It's out of print. Where can I find one?

[R A Sosnowski]

It's out of print. Where can I find one?

Sounds like an article for translation into English and reprinting in Kendo World Magazine.

[R A Sosnowski]

Go buy the September 1999 (#283) issue of Kendo Nippon.

That issue walk through ALL of them one by one...with Chiba sensei and Sato sensei as model.

#1 Hasso - Jikishinkage Ryu
#2 Henka - Kurama Ryu
#3 "Eight Sky Cut" - "Something Island" Ryu.
#4 Maki-otoshi - Tatsumi Ryu
#5 Gedan no Tsuki - Hokushin Itto Ryu
#6 Aun - Asayama Ichiden Ryu
#7 Ichi-Ni no Tachi - Jigen Ryu
#8 Uchi-otoshi - Shindo Munen Ryu
#9 "Broken Fold" Hassha? - Yagyu Ryu
#10 Gurai-Izume - "Mirror Heart Clear Wisdom" Ryu

The "" are where I can't read the Japanese.

FWIW.

From THE SWORD THROUGH THE MEIJI PERIOD (http://http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/06TIN90.htm)

1. Hasso:Jikishinkage Ryu
2. Henka: Karuma Ryu
3. Hachiten Giri: Hozan Ryu
4. Maki Otoshi: Rishin Ryu
5. Kadan no Tsuki: Hokushin Itto Ryu
6. A-un: Asayama Ichiden Ryu
7. Ichi-ni no Tachi: Jigen Ryu
8. Uchi Otoshi: Shindo Munen Ryu
9. Hasetsu: Yagyu Shinkage Ryu
10. Kurai Zume: Kyoshin Meichi Ryu

[Lazken]

If they print that, Im subscribing ! :p

[Kaoru]

Maybe this is a silly question, but why don't we do these kata instead of the ones we currently have? Why did they make up new kata if these were in existance? :confused: It's nice to see that each of those kata came from somewhere. It's like a history lesson. I really wish I could see these kata. I LOVE doing kata. *sigh* *wistful*

Kaoru

[DCPan]

From THE SWORD THROUGH THE MEIJI PERIOD (http://http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/06TIN90.htm)

1. Hasso:Jikishinkage Ryu
2. Henka: Karuma Ryu
3. Hachiten Giri: Hozan Ryu
4. Maki Otoshi: Rishin Ryu
5. Kadan no Tsuki: Hokushin Itto Ryu
6. A-un: Asayama Ichiden Ryu
7. Ichi-ni no Tachi: Jigen Ryu
8. Uchi Otoshi: Shindo Munen Ryu
9. Hasetsu: Yagyu Shinkage Ryu
10. Kurai Zume: Kyoshin Meichi Ryu

With all due respects to Unka Kim, I didn't use that reference because I thought some of those sounded incorrect.

The problem with kanji is there are multiple pronounciation for something.

For example, folks of the "standing body" ryu call themselves "Tatsumi" Ryu, not Rishin Ryu.
re: Hozan Ryu, as there were three kanji, "hozan" is missing a sound-syllable.

Grammatically, it'd be "Hatten-giri", not "Hatchi-ten giri"...as I wasn't sure how they wanted to say it, I just left it as is.

That's why I didn't use that reference.

Here's another reference, but they used "Rishin Ryu" as well....

http://www.shinzen-dojo.net/le_dojo/keishi_ryu/keishi_ryu.html

It's one thing to just read off the kanji as they are written, it's another to call it as the practitioners would say it.

FWIW.

[DCPan]

It's out of print. Where can I find one?

You can buy back issues from Kendo Nippon from Skijournal. Any Japanese bookstore can also order it for you, unless they are out of back issues...they still have some back issues from the late 80s.

If not, find someone and borrow it! :wink:

[DCPan]

Maybe this is a silly question, but why don't we do these kata instead of the ones we currently have? Why did they make up new kata if these were in existance? :confused:

In August 1999 (#282), there is an article talking about Keishi Ryu.

From what I can make of it, basically:

- the police battotai was getting stuck in instruction because the strong kenshi of different ryuha were instructing in different ways due to their stylistic differences.

- to standardize instruction, they asked the representatives of each style to pick the zenith/essence of their style, and collected these 10 kata.

- the goal was kenjutsu. Kata arise from the collective experience of the swordman from surviving shinken shobu. As people no longer engage in duels, it was their hope to experience some of that spirit by practicing the essence of each style...to try to understand what it means to do their technique by putting their life on the line (inochigake no shinken shobu).

- - -

Personal observation:

The underlying principle of kendo kata is shown in Tachi no Kata #3 and Kodachi Kata #3, is "divine martial not kill". You will notice the pattern of kill, maim, and control is repeated in Kendo Kata. The same exist in Iaido's Saya no Uchi.

The goal of keishi ryu kitachi no kata is to experience the heart of shinken shobu (inochigake no shinken shobu) by practicing "the strongest set of kumitachi" in existence.

Different goals...not to mention I think you'll find more internal consistency in kendo kata because it was designed around a kabala, whereas the keishi ryu is more of a sampling of the spirit.

FWIW.

[KenShi_JoB]

You can buy back issues from Kendo Nippon from Skijournal. Any Japanese bookstore can also order it for you, unless they are out of back issues...they still have some back issues from the late 80s.

If not, find someone and borrow it! :wink:

Sadly, I already try that, but they are out of stock. And I will surprise if any kendoka here in Thailand do subscribe kendo nippon.

[KenShi_JoB]

Sounds like an article for translation into English and reprinting in Kendo World Magazine.

It will be a great thing indeed.

[R A Sosnowski]

With all due respects to Unka Kim, I didn't use that reference because I thought some of those sounded incorrect.

The problem with kanji is there are multiple pronounciation for something.

For example, folks of the "standing body" ryu call themselves "Tatsumi" Ryu, not Rishin Ryu.
re: Hozan Ryu, as there were three kanji, "hozan" is missing a sound-syllable.

Grammatically, it'd be "Hatten-giri", not "Hatchi-ten giri"...as I wasn't sure how they wanted to say it, I just left it as is.

That's why I didn't use that reference.

Here's another reference, but they used "Rishin Ryu" as well....

http://www.shinzen-dojo.net/le_dojo/keishi_ryu/keishi_ryu.html

It's one thing to just read off the kanji as they are written, it's another to call it as the practitioners would say it.

FWIW.
Given Unka Kim's lack of Japanese reading skills, I suspect that he had a reference for the names -- in fact, they come from Donn Draeger's 1974 text Modern Bujitsu & Budo.

[R A Sosnowski]

Maybe this is a silly question, but why don't we do these kata instead of the ones we currently have? Why did they make up new kata if these were in existance? :confused: It's nice to see that each of those kata came from somewhere. It's like a history lesson. I really wish I could see these kata. I LOVE doing kata. *sigh* *wistful*

Kaoru
Good question.

We know from history, The History and Background of Japanese Kendo Kata (http://www.budogu.com/html/kendokata.htm), that the Keishicho Ryu Gekken Kata, the first set of standardized kata for Kendo, came into existence ca. 1886, while Kendo no Kata was standardized by committee in 1917 and revised in 1933.

There is a cryptic remark in the above mentioned article that says "... a standard kata set which did not favor any one particular ryu was needed for kendo instruction." that may be the driving modivation. A committee was formed in 1911 and a draft was produced in 1912 for a set of kata with seven o-dachi vs. o-dachi kata and three o-dachi vs. ko-dachi kata.

In any event, if there is any relationship between the Keishicho Ryu Gekken Kata and Kendo no Kata, it is unstated.

Given that several members of the committee that created the Keishicho Ryu Gekken Kata were also on the initial committee that created Kendo no Kata, I would expect some elements of the former to be contained in the latter, but this is speculation on my part. I am curious if the article in the September 1999 (#283) issue of Kendo Nippon can shed any light on this.

[KenShi_JoB]

The police sword forms called the Keishicho Ryu Gekken Kata were developed in 1886 by the swordsmen assigned to instruct the forces. The following swordsmen were instructors during these years.

Okumura Sakonda Tokino Seikishiro, Jikishinkage Ryu
Ueda Umanosuke, Kyoshin Meichi Ryu
Neigishi Shingoro Shibae Umpachiro Watanabe Noboru, Shindo Munen Ryu
Matsuzaki Namishiro,Shinkage Ryu
Shingai Tadatsu, Tamiya Ryu
Takao Tesso, Tetchu Ryu
Mitsuhashi Kan'ichiro, Togun Ryu

Meiji 39, 1906 Butokukai unified kenjutsu ryu ha because kendo had been introduced as a subject for the public school system. Dai Nihon Butokukai Kendo Kata. At that time three kamae were established, Gedan no kamae (person), Chudan no kamae (earth) and Jodan no kamae (sky).

Ryu Ha Major Sensei
Shinto Munen Ryu Watanabe, Noboru
Shinto Munen Ryu Shibae, Umpachiro
Musashi Ryu Mihashi, Kanichiro
Jikishin Kage Ryu Tokuno, Kanshiro
Kyoshin Mechi Ryu Sakabe, Daisaku
Shinto Munen Ryu Negishi, Shigoro
Jikishin Kage Ryu Abe, Morie



Given that several members of the committee that created the Keishicho Ryu Gekken Kata were also on the initial committee that created Kendo no Kata

I just notice that.

[ZealUK]

I noticed that in that list of Ryu that the Kendo no Kata were developed from there is a lack of practitioners of Itto Ryu Kenjutsu, which I believed was the primary influence on this set of forms.

Meik Skoss states "In more recent times, the men instrumental in creating the technical curriculum of kendo (modern Japanese fencing, or swordsmanship with mock weapons made of bamboo) were greatly influenced by Itto-ryu theory and technique. Several of the men charged with creating the Dai Nippon Teikoku Kendo Kata, the forerunner of todays Nihon Kendo Kata, were exponents of Hokushin Itto-ryu and they conferred with exponenets of other branches of the Itto-ryu in order to create the forms that became the technical standard for modern kendo." (Keiko Shokon - Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan Volume 3 - Itto-Ryu Kenjutsu - An Overview pg.109)

Perhaps Kendo as a whole artform was more heavily influenced by Itto-Ryu than any other tradition?

Also does taking a set of waza from various different Ryu take them out of context? Surely the waza from each of these traditional schools had its place within that system, which led to a full understanding of strategy as it related to that particular school. By gathering a selection from a wide source of traditional schools do these techniques have the same meaning and impact as they would have in their origional systems? I'm certain that the people who devised Kendo no Kata knew exactly what they were doing, and chose these techniques because they taught a complete strategy relevant to modern kendo. I guess I just wonder if the Kendo no Kata look anything like the techniques they were derived from when performed side by side.

[KenShi_JoB]

From Looking at the far mountain by paul budden-sensei,

In 1906 committee above, the Nihon Kendo Kata is called Butokukai Kenjutsu Kata, only have first three form. and there are another 8 kendo master who were allowed to take part in the discussions:

T Naito (should be takaharu naito from hokushin itto ryu), S Sayama, M Toyama, K Yano, K Minatobe, T Yamasato anf H Nakayama (famous Nakayama Hakudo-sensei, he is a student of Neigishi Shingoro in the committee).

In 1911, The second committee was formed. Sasaburo Takano (Ono-ha itto ryu), Takaharu Naito(Hokushin itto Ryu), Tadashi Monna(Hokushin Itto Ryu), Shingoro Negishi (Shindo Munen Ryu), Shinpei Tsuji(Shingyoto-Ryu, 1 of 4 big ryu of bakumatsu era beside Shindo Munen, Hokushin Itto, Kyoshin Meichi; He also from Jikishinkage Ryu), and 20 others. This time it's called Dai Nihon Teikoku Kendo Kata and have 7 Odachi 3 Kodashi kata like today kata.

In 1917 amending, The commitee also consist of some of above members; at least Tadashi Monna and Nakayama Hakudo. In 1933, Moriji Mochida(Hokushin Itto), Kinnosuke Ogawa(Hokushin Itto), Goro Saimura who would all be 10 dan after WW2 were the committee.

[KenShi_JoB]

In 1933, It's begin to known as Nihon Kendo Kata.

Correction, Jikishin Kage Ryu Tokuno, Kanshiro from 1906 commitee and Tokino Seikishiro, Jikishinkage Ryu from Keishicho may be the same person. In Paul Budden's Book, he is called Sekishiro Tokuno.

[R A Sosnowski]

I noticed that in that list of Ryu that the Kendo no Kata were developed from there is a lack of practitioners of Itto Ryu Kenjutsu, which I believed was the primary influence on this set of forms.

Meik Skoss states "In more recent times, the men instrumental in creating the technical curriculum of kendo (modern Japanese fencing, or swordsmanship with mock weapons made of bamboo) were greatly influenced by Itto-ryu theory and technique. Several of the men charged with creating the Dai Nippon Teikoku Kendo Kata, the forerunner of todays Nihon Kendo Kata, were exponents of Hokushin Itto-ryu and they conferred with exponenets of other branches of the Itto-ryu in order to create the forms that became the technical standard for modern kendo." (Keiko Shokon - Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan Volume 3 - Itto-Ryu Kenjutsu - An Overview pg.109)

Perhaps Kendo as a whole artform was more heavily influenced by Itto-Ryu than any other tradition?

At least in terms of Jigeiko.

Also does taking a set of waza from various different Ryu take them out of context? Surely the waza from each of these traditional schools had its place within that system, which led to a full understanding of strategy as it related to that particular school. By gathering a selection from a wide source of traditional schools do these techniques have the same meaning and impact as they would have in their origional systems? I'm certain that the people who devised Kendo no Kata knew exactly what they were doing, and chose these techniques because they taught a complete strategy relevant to modern kendo. I guess I just wonder if the Kendo no Kata look anything like the techniques they were derived from when performed side by side.
This is "Seitei" -- creating a representative set of forms. We see it in the ZNKR's Seitei Iai Gata and Seitei Jo Gata, and the ZNIR's Toho.

As for committee members, they appear to be technically competent. What is not said is what were the political implications behind the choices -- who was chosen and who was not.

[KenShi_JoB]

I think many of our questions can be solved easily by the keishi ryu article, we can see what it is like.


So many valuable information are only available in Japanese. KW Team, please research on this for us!!!

[R A Sosnowski]

I think many of our questions can be solved easily by the keishi ryu article, we can see what it is like.
Well, maybe, but we won't know until it is done.

So many valuable information are only available in Japanese. KW Team, please research on this for us!!!
True, true. I have seen some wonderful works on Kendo in Japanese, and I know that nothing of the sort exists in English. Same thing in Naginata. And then there are the Koryu arts .... <SIGH>

[JAMJTX]

5 of these kata are practiced in the San Shin Kai. There may be others but I only know of 5 and always thought there were only 5. I am going to look into it.
These 5 were demonstrated at SwordFest 04 in Malvern, PA. If there is a San Shin Kai group at 05 (which I am sure there will be) they may be shown again. They are also on the DVD, although the names may be inaudible.

If you attend a seminar taught by Roger Wehrhahn, you may very well see these 5 kata.


Jim Mc Coy

[DCPan]

5 of these kata are practiced in the San Shin Kai. There may be others but I only know of 5 and always thought there were only 5. I am going to look into it.
These 5 were demonstrated at SwordFest 04 in Malvern, PA. If there is a San Shin Kai group at 05 (which I am sure there will be) they may be shown again. They are also on the DVD, although the names may be inaudible.

If you attend a seminar taught by Roger Wehrhahn, you may very well see these 5 kata.


Jim Mc Coy

The 5 Keishi Ryu Iai Kata are different from the 10 Keishi Ryu Kata, which are kumitachi.

FWIW.

[JAMJTX]

Thanks.

Jim Mc Coy

[ben]

I recently reviewed the tape of Chiba and Sato sensei's Kenshikan demo last year. FWIW here is what I could make out from the audio of Chiba sensei's announcement before each kata:

Ipponme--Hasso--Jikishinkage Ryu
Nihonme--Henka--Kurama Ryu (sound was indistinct but I'd put money on that he said "Kurama")
Sanbonme--Hatten Giri--... Hozan Ryu (first word of ryu's name was indistinguishable :()
Yohonme--Maki Otoshi--Tatsumi Ryu
Gohonme--Gedan no tsuki--Hokushin Itto Ryu
Ropponme--Aun--Asayama Ichiden Ryu
Nanhonme--Ichi Ni no Tachi--Jigen Ryu
Hachihonme--Uchi otoshi--Shindo Muso Ryu
Kyuhonme--Haore--Yagyu Ryu
Juhonme--Kurai zume--Kyoshin Meichi Ryu

b

[KenShi_JoB]

I recently reviewed the tape of Chiba and Sato sensei's Kenshikan demo last year. FWIW here is what I could make out from the audio of Chiba sensei's announcement before each kata:

Ipponme--Hasso--Jikishinkage Ryu
Nihonme--Henka--Kurama Ryu (sound was indistinct but I'd put money on that he said "Kurama")
Sanbonme--Hatten Giri--... Hozan Ryu (first word of ryu's name was indistinguishable :()
Yohonme--Maki Otoshi--Tatsumi Ryu
Gohonme--Gedan no tsuki--Hokushin Itto Ryu
Ropponme--Aun--Asayama Ichiden Ryu
Nanhonme--Ichi Ni no Tachi--Jigen Ryu
Hachihonme--Uchi otoshi--Shindo Muso Ryu
Kyuhonme--Haore--Yagyu Ryu
Juhonme--Kurai zume--Kyoshin Meichi Ryu

b

Hello,

Are there anyway for me to get that video? Can you change it to digital format and give us a chance to see it? :cry:

[ben]

Unfortunately I'm not able to digitise stuff. I'll ask around though. What you could do KenshiJob (and anyone else who wants to see it), is ask the Melbourne Budokai, who hosted the event at which Chiba and Sato sensei demostrated, and see if the have copies or are willing to host it on their site.
www.melbournebudokai.com.au (http://www.melbournebudokai.com.au)
b

[KenShi_JoB]

Ok, I will try that. Thank you.

[KenShi_JoB]

Hello everyone,

I already contacted with Melborne Budokai. They said they will see what can be done. They will contact me again soon. Hope we can have a glimpse on this video. :)

[FastEd]

Hey all,

Any update on the video?

Cheers

[KenShi_JoB]

They never reply me again.

[dSomers]

Hello, I just joined, as I was trying to find info on the Keishi Ryu, in a websearch. Does anyone here read Kanji? If so, I just might have some info you guys might be looking for. However, I have been burned before, & people have not kept up w/ their part of the deal, so, if you are not willing to keep your word, then no deal. Also, anyone comming to FL, for any seminars this year, if you are willing to share w/ me, whatever knowledge you do have, I can share this info w/ you, as well. I do have this article in my possesion, & want to share it w/ others once translated. Also, if anyone knows of any official governing body for Keishi Ryu, & can point me to it, I'd appreciate it, as well. Thank you for your time, & hope to hear from you soon.

[ben]

Keishi Ryu is a form of swordsmanship developed for and practiced by members of what is now known as the Tokyo Metropolitan Police, back in the Meiji era. They are the only people that teach and practice it, and I'm pretty sure it's not meant to be disseminated any more widely than that. I feel that I'm lucky to have seen a live demonstration.

So as far as I know, it remains the "property" of the Tokyo Metro Police.

b

[ben]

What was you special interest in the Keishi Ryu?

b

[dSomers]

I was hit by a car about 6 years ago, & Seiza is now very hard for me. I was actually struck by a drunk driver, in my left leg, while changing a tire on the side of the interstate. Very lucky to be alive, Thank God! While I love Iai/Batto Do, I dont like modifying any of the arts I practice, due to my injuries, I'd just rather find an Iai system that is done standing up, so I dont have to do that.

[R A Sosnowski]

I was hit by a car about 6 years ago, & Seiza is now very hard for me. I was actually struck by a drunk driver, in my left leg, while changing a tire on the side of the interstate. Very lucky to be alive, Thank God! While I love Iai/Batto Do, I dont like modifying any of the arts I practice, due to my injuries, I'd just rather find an Iai system that is done standing up, so I dont have to do that.
The curriculum (http://www.sanshinkai.org/pages1/kata.html) of the North American Sanshinkai, a MSR org., includes Iai Kata of the Keishi Ryu and Shindo Munen Ryu (both standing sets) for those who cannot do Kata from seiza. I have had some training in both sets.

Another alternative is Nakamura Ryu/Toyama Ryu - standing Kata only (I practice the former).

FWIW, I can still do Kata from seiza and tatehiza (MJER & Mugai Ryu).

HTH.