The Most Valued Characteristic?

[Charlie]

What would you say is the most valued characteristic of a kendo-ka, that aspect of him or her that kendo as an art, or kendo as a society, values the most? And why? I have my suspicion but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[Lucien]

Self-respect. I think everything comes from there.

[JSchmidt]

Good at drinking beer!!

Jakob

[Charlie]

So that's two votes for "Other..." :D

[don quixote]

A combination is the best. What use is courage and perserverance if you do not gain any skill or knowledge? & vice versa & cetera.

Also, it is good to be able to drink beer, but unless you can still come to practice after 8 pints and two hours of sleep it is not a particularily valuable characteristic. Having this ability is very important. :wink:

[mingshi]

How his/her presence inspires me. This goes for anyone from a beginner to a hachidan.

[Kanoken]

I feel that it is courage and persistance that are the most improtant characteristics. You must be persistant and stick with your training, and know that it is never-ending. And also have courage, if you are afraid from the opponent, from his shinai, from getting hit, then it isn't worth it.

[Optomitrist]

I think ultimately the best real life accomplishment one can get out of budo is a shaping of good character. This of course goes hand in hand with the second option as well. Sword fighting is great and all but your skill in it will not effect your everyday life.

[Light Samurai]

I respec tpeople for personality, and then close after skill. They can be the nicest person ever, but know nothing about kendo. People who are know it alls and good at kendo is just wrong. So, i guess personailty does matter. I voted for skill.

[JByrd]

I chose character/personality because to me it is the overarching definition of a person. Courage and persistence are kind of folded into that in my mind.

My first Kendo teacher, Ken Takeno Sensei, told me that development of character is the only important reason to do Kendo. Kendo has very little self defense application. Kendo is fun, but there are a lot of ways to have fun that are not nearly so expensive or difficult to learn. Kendo is good exercise, but there are lots of good forms of exercise. For those reasons, Takeno Sensei thought that anyone who sticks with Kendo long term does it for reasons of character development, and I have come to agree with him.

[Theodore]

I chose character/personality because to me it is the overarching definition of a person. Courage and persistence are kind of folded into that in my mind. .

To me "courage and persistence" are an outgrowth of your character. If the latter is properly formed then the former naturally flow therefrom.

[joekc6nlx]

Good at drinking beer!!

Jakob

But better at making beer for the dojo parties! Since that is one of my hobbies, I get to brew the beer for our parties.

[The great I AM]

But better at making beer for the dojo parties! Since that is one of my hobbies, I get to brew the beer for our parties.

Do you brew it in a tin bath inside a knackered old shack, and bottle it in unlabelled brown bottles?

[joekc6nlx]

Do you brew it in a tin bath inside a knackered old shack, and bottle it in unlabelled brown bottles?

No, I have a very large stainless steel kettle designed for brewing beer. I brew it in my kitchen and I don't use bottles any more. I have several 5 gallon (U.S.) soft drink syrup kegs I use. I carbonate the beer using forced carbonation. I have a tap that mounts onto the keg fittings, so it's easy to dispense.

[Kaoru]

Good at drinking beer!!

Jakob

Is not. *sigh*

Kaoru

[Andoru]

I voted for "persistance and courage" as I believe that these are the essential human elements that are needed for self-improvement regardless of experience. Moreover, self-improvement is the essence of budo. Of course a kendoka's personality is important too, but nothing inspires me more than seeing a dedicated kendoka trying his/her best to improve him/herself in keiko. These are the people who have the courage to acknowledge their shortcomings and work hard to overcome them.

[Kaoru]

Also, it is good to be able to drink beer, but unless you can still come to practice after 8 pints and two hours of sleep it is not a particularily valuable characteristic. Having this ability is very important. :wink:

That SO is not important!! Grrrrrr.... *trying hard not to rant* :( :( Kendokas drink waaay too much... *sigh* :( Why??

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

I haven't voted yet. I am considering the question still... I'll be back. It's a good question to think over. I wish I could choose more than one choice.

Kaoru

[Kirsty]

I voted persistence/courage because you can't give up if you want to be good at kendo.

If I could vote for two I would vote for character/personality because kendo wouldn't be the same with out it. :wink:

[kanyil]

Is not. *sigh*

Kaoru

Kaoru's right everybody. The ability to drink beer is not nearly as relevant an attribute to kendokas as the ability to drink sake, in case you ever visit Japan.

[Musha]

The most importaint characteristic of a kendo-ka should be sincerity! kendo without it is empty playing!

Kanyil I could probably drink industrial alcahol but I don't have the time and money to drink :D.

[CryingFreeman]

Character all the way

[JSchmidt]

Kendokas drink waaay too much... *sigh* :( Why??

Kaoru

WTF is your problem?.

Jakob

[The great I AM]

No, I have a very large stainless steel kettle designed for brewing beer. I brew it in my kitchen and I don't use bottles any more. I have several 5 gallon (U.S.) soft drink syrup kegs I use. I carbonate the beer using forced carbonation. I have a tap that mounts onto the keg fittings, so it's easy to dispense.

Holy Crap! You've got a pub in your kitchen! Thats amazing....I'm actually jealous! Do you have peanuts and porkscrathcings behind the counter?

[The great I AM]

That SO is not important!! Grrrrrr.... *trying hard not to rant* :( :( Kendokas drink waaay too much... *sigh* :( Why??

Kaoru

I beg to differ. At the club Anjin-san and I started last october, the people who stayed on were ALL people who came drinking with us from the start. No joke. The only dropout we've had since getting them into bougu (3 weeks ago) was a guy who didn't ever come to the pub with us, like almost never, once or twice.

So Miss Kaoru, not important? Rant at that!:wink:

[Musha]

I think drink it more of an English thing :).

[Charlie]

And it's a Japanese thing. A sober Japanese is often a lonely fellow. Not all cultures have the same attitudes toward drinking, remember.

Well, interesting answers here. My own vote was for persistance since I think this is the quality favored above all others by Japanese on the whole, but I'm intrigued by the answer "sincerity." If kendo begins and ends with rei, and rei must be sincere, not empty etiquette, that puts sincerity in a new bracket, doesn't it?

The reason I started this poll is I have been thinking for some time that the culture of kendo and the culture of boxing are a lot alike. And I think the characteristic that boxers favor above all others is "heart." That usually means guts to try and train hard and keep going, even if you fail or are a lousy fighter. I was wondering if kendo-ka felt the same. I thought persistance might be a Japanese way of saying "heart."

Your thoughts?

[Musha]

I think you guys are talking more about what it takes to do modern kendo.

Your hakama should remind you of what kendo should be about and what kind of person it should make you.

仁 Jin benevolence
義 Gi morality
礼 Rei courtesy
知 Chi knowligable
信 Shin sincerity

[D'Artagnan]

Character/personality

Kendo, to me, is about about learning and expressing who you are.

Just think about it, If someone is an @$$, then it shows in thier Kendo.

The sword is the soul baby!

[D'Artagnan]

Your hakama should remind you of what kendo should be about and what kind of person it should make you.

仁 Jin benevolence
義 Gi morality
礼 Rei courtesy
知 Chi knowligable
信 Shin sincerity


Damn! e-bougu seem to have left the labels off mine! how will I now be able to look at my hakama and realise the true way?! now i'll never be a samurai...

[joekc6nlx]

In all seriousness, I voted for character/personality. Your character shows in how you approach kendo. If you are an honorable and respectful person, your kendo will also reflect that.

For Ms. Kaoru, I understand that some people believe that drinking is wrong, or that we drink too much. We spend our time in the "second dojo" discussing what we did in class, what is coming up, what our plans are for the upcoming weeks. We could do all of this in the dojo, but we have to be out of there by a certain time, so all of our business is usually conducted at the "second dojo". Anyone who comes with us is NOT required to drink alcohol, and I will not look down on anyone who chooses that path. Everyone has their own comfort level with alcohol, and I will respect that. Hmm....seems to me that kendo is affecting my outside life. Good!

[hyuna]

What do people mean by "character/personality"?

I mean, courage and perserverence are character/personality traits.

So when people say that the most important thing is a "good character" or "good personality," what does that mean? What makes up a "good personality" and, perhaps more to the point, which of those attributes are the most important ones?

[JByrd]

But better at making beer for the dojo parties! Since that is one of my hobbies, I get to brew the beer for our parties.

Hey! Me, too! We seriously need to hang out. I have a keg of a very hoppy pale ale, and a copy of The Tao of Physics... that should get us at least part of the way into the metaphysics of Kendo. :)

[JByrd]

I think people can mostly agree on many of the important aspects of character. The main problem is not that people disgree on the important ideals, but that almost nobody knows how to act in a way that demonstrates those ideals.

From what I have seen, few people actually attempt to question themselves about how to apply their ideals in the real life situations they experience. Instead they default to their own self interest, or allow their political or religious leaders to tell them what to do.

As long as people are too lazy or ignorant to actually figure out how to use their ideals to direct their everyday actions, I don't think it really matters what ideals they claim to embrace.

[joekc6nlx]

What do people mean by "character/personality"?

I mean, courage and perserverence are character/personality traits.

So when people say that the most important thing is a "good character" or "good personality," what does that mean? What makes up a "good personality" and, perhaps more to the point, which of those attributes are the most important ones?

When in doubt, I fall back on the Golden Rule. If I don't show respect and consideration for people, then I have no right to expect respect and consideration in return. How I handle myself in situations where people refuse to be respectful also reflects my own personality and character.

As for character/personality traits, so is meanness, cruelty, hatred, bigotry, disregard for others, etc., etc., etc.

What we are trying to convey in kendo is what the samurai believed that they were the moral examples for the lower classes (farmers, artisans, merchants).

I suppose you could argue that Character/personality is a broad subject, and you'd be right. Perhaps what Charlie was trying to demonstrate was the honorable and morally/ethically right way to live inside and outside of the dojo.

[hyuna]

I think people can mostly agree on many of the important aspects of character. The main problem is not that people disgree on the important ideals, but that almost nobody knows how to act in a way that demonstrates those ideals.
I don't really think "the important aspects of character" really are that clear.

There are some words and phrases we all can say but the meaning is often very obscure. Like when people talk of "the golden rule" as "do unto others as I would have them do unto me." That doesn't say anything without talking about what you consider acceptable to do to you. When there is some hard criticism, would you rather people be mean but honest? Or would you rather people be kind but bend the truth? Different people answer differently because some value hard truth (sincerity) more than kindness (courtesy) and vice-versa. Saying that people should be "considerate" is exactly the same. Saying people should be "benevolent" -- is "tough love" benevolent or cruel? These things seem obvious to oneself and to people who have similar opinions as you, but they are very obscure otherwise.


From what I have seen, few people actually attempt to question themselves about how to apply their ideals in the real life situations they experience. Instead they default to their own self interest, or allow their political or religious leaders to tell them what to do.
This statement suggests many sorts of values:
That people should be introspective and question how they ought to behave, that people should have principles ("ideals") that are external to "real life" that can be applied to it (since if they were not external, in what sense could they be "applied"?), that people should not be "self-interested", presumably that means be more interested in the welfare of others than themselves, and that people should be independent minded rather than simply being told what to do.

But, in fact, I would argue that most canonical kendo teaching, especially for beginners, is inconsistent with at least some of these ideals. For example, we are not supposed to think about how to act, but, rather, simply to act when the time comes and the opportunity presents itself. We are not supposed to be independent minded. As I mentioned earlier, what it means to be not "self-interested" is rather obscure even if the meaning seems clear to the person who says it. But, even so, if we are taught to think of crossing shinai as crossing swords, what kind of consideration is it that we teach when we are trying to "kill" our opponent? Kendo does teach us to have some ideals outside of "real life" that are applied to our lives, so that matches, at least.

Perhaps it is the case that kendo gives you the "strength of character" necessary to live up to your ideals. But then which is more important? Character or Courage and Perseverence to follow it?


As long as people are too lazy or ignorant to actually figure out how to use their ideals to direct their everyday actions, I don't think it really matters what ideals they claim to embrace.
It matters because if our goal in kendo is to teach people to act as they "should" without hesitation, then we strive to teach them to be, at least, not too lazy to use them to direct their everyday actions. If someone is "evil" and we give them the determination and ability to act the way they see fit, then we empower "evil" unless we somehow can "fix" their character.

That statement should make it clear why I bring up the question of what "good character" means. If you are someone who believes in "good" vs "evil" then you must train correct character and attitudes. It is, then, important to know what "correct character" means in a deeper and more complete sense than "the golden rule." If you are a relativist that does not believe in "good" vs "evil" and just that different people of different cultures have different ideals, then what does it mean to say that "character" is important?

[kanyil]

How about just plain old vanilla "nice"?

While not a requirement for kendo, I have almost never came across a kendoka that's not a nice person.

Even if some might be a little scruffy/rude on the outside, they will eventually warm up and can transform into the nicest persons once they get used to your presence.

[DCPan]

I think people can mostly agree on many of the important aspects of character. The main problem is not that people disgree on the important ideals, but that almost nobody knows how to act in a way that demonstrates those ideals.

Hmm...can't remember where I read this, but there was a great article on why practicing budo makes one a better person.

Rather than making an assertion about morality, the article makes a point about how to be a "great" martial artist, one has to have dignity.

If that dignity carries over to one's daily life, it's bound to make one a better person.

Kind of goes with the whole discussion about western and eastern society being "guilt-based" and "shame-based" society though....

FWIW.

[Pokie]

i think character is very important..look at where it is..look at it deeper and you'll find b-e-e-r, so beer is important..very important..maybe that's why japanese are very strong in kendo..that's why dojos should leave a space in the treasury for a "beer for kendo" fund...who's up for that !?

[Musha]

"character/personality"?

To be able to tell a good joke and stand out from the class? :o

[Musha]

While not a requirement for kendo, I have almost never came across a kendoka that's not a nice person.

I've seen some very scary kendo-ka in both England and Japan. People you think, I got to stay away from that guy..

This young Japanese guy fences me like he wants to see how many bruses he can give. He also mumbles some thing in seiza, maybe "Why's this gaijin guy sitting next to me". I fenced him for about twenty minutes taking rib doues and floor kotes and came to the conclusion that hes just a crap kendo-ka :rolleyes:.

[The great I AM]

This young Japanese guy fences me like he wants to see how many bruses he can give. He also mumbles some thing in seiza, maybe "Why's this gaijin guy sitting next to me". I fenced him for about twenty minutes taking rib doues and floor kotes and came to the conclusion that hes just a crap kendo-ka :rolleyes:.

You are a better man than I Mister Musha. I wouldn't have stood for that. It still amazes me (am I still that naive) how you can have a wonderful experience in kendo with some really generous and great japanese people, and then racist little sh!ts like your pal there come along with his obvious "gaijin doing kendo is wrong" attitude and try to hurt you. You must have the will power of a saint!

Who is the scary british kendoka you were talking about? Do we know them?

[Paburo]

jakob is right. all the great hachidans and kyudan i know are sakeholics. seems like one must master the sword at the time one masters the alcohol.

also, a keen sense of humour is always nice in a kendoka. kyu to kyudan. gotta love those smiling jokeful hachidan senseis!

[iam_pk]

courage!!! coz if u scare of it, u lose already~

[Musha]

You are a better man than I Mister Musha. I wouldn't have stood for that. It still amazes me (am I still that naive) how you can have a wonderful experience in kendo with some really generous and great japanese people, and then racist little sh!ts like your pal there come along with his obvious "gaijin doing kendo is wrong" attitude and try to hurt you. You must have the will power of a saint!

Who is the scary british kendoka you were talking about? Do we know them?

I can't work him out so can't say if he really doen't like me or just feels his kendo is better than any one but the sensei's. His bow is sloppy, his fencing is lax he turns up late for class with his friends and doesn't bother to warm up with every one else some times. His kendo is crap thats all I can say.

I've done some hard sports in my time and being hit with a shiai is nothing to being stamped on by people with studs in rugby and floored.

I can't tell you the British guys name because he is a sensei. Its just my thirteen, some thing year old friend said he was tsukied by him whilst doing keiko and he got scared of him ever since.

[JByrd]

I don't really think "the important aspects of character" really are that clear.

I think they are, as long as one does not get lost in excruciating detail about the exact semantics of each term. Ideals like honesty, loyalty, courage, etc., are almost universally understood as to their meaning, and are almost universally held up as positive character traits.



This statement suggests many sorts of values:
That people should be introspective and question how they ought to behave, that people should have principles ("ideals") that are external to "real life" that can be applied to it (since if they were not external, in what sense could they be "applied"?), that people should not be "self-interested", presumably that means be more interested in the welfare of others than themselves, and that people should be independent minded rather than simply being told what to do.


I don't think it is all that complicated. I was simply making the point that if one does not commit to living by one's principles, defining one's principles is an empty, and ultimately worthless, exercise.

[joekc6nlx]

I remember a conversation between Chiba Sensei and Darrell Craig in Darrell's book about whether one is "good" or "evil". There really isn't a clear way to express what is "good" or "evil", but perhaps something that may come clearer would be a balance between the "good" and the "evil".

Nobody is perfectly "good" and nobody is perfectly "evil".

I don't want to sound pedantic, but when have you ever met a person who really enjoyed being injured? I certainly haven't, and since I don't like getting hurt, I try to treat everyone else the same way. Call it a "golden rule", whatever, it's MY principle, MY ethics, and MY morality. As far as I can see, it doesn't conflict with MY kendo, but rather is augmented by MY kendo.

[Hisham]

I voted other cuse IMO humility is the most important characteristic, of course it's easier said than done. Keeping that newbie "i don't know, i want to learn" attitude is pretty important.


jakob is right. all the great hachidans and kyudan i know are sakeholics. seems like one must master the sword at the time one masters the alcohol.


Man if it wasn't for Musashi i would've commented on your post by saying that i hope that it's not true :D, but thanks to him us none alcohol drinkers can still dream about attaining high levels in sword arts.

[hyuna]

I was simply making the point that if one does not commit to living by one's principles, defining one's principles is an empty, and ultimately worthless, exercise.
Everyone is committed to living by their principles. Everyone has personal values that they consistently live by. However, not everyone is able to clearly express those principles and, in my experience, very few people are even clearly aware of what their principles truly are. Many people have a list of social principles in their head that they know, through a lifetime of enculturation, that they are supposed to follow. It is that list that they provide when asked about their principles.

This is not a matter of people not following their principles, although it seems like it is because it is a matter of people saying one thing and doing another. It is a matter of people not knowing the real answer and instead giving the stock answer. That is why I asked my question. At the very least, it is part of the ZNKR statement of the purpose of kendo that "character" is the point of practicing kendo, so it is too easy an answer. It is an answer one can make without any thought whatsoever over the meaning of it. If I remember correctly, you are a teacher -- so, no doubt, you know exactly what I mean when I draw a distinction between people who can simply respond correctly and people who actually know the answer.

But it was not just a rhetorical question: I myself do not know what "good character" is. Yes, of course I could give you a list a mile long with all the traits that are "universally agreed upon" that make up a good character. That does not help. That perhaps seems absurd, so I will give an analogy: I could give you a list of definitions of "seme" as well, but I still do not truly understand that. Perhaps that experience will be more familiar and will make my meaning more clear. For both "seme" and "character," I possess a long list of adjectives that dance around the central truth of it.

I know I am not alone in my confusion. "Good character" usually equates to "ethical" and even a cursory look at the study of ethics throughout history and across cultures will show that what constitutes "ethical behavior" is not trivially answered.

[kanyil]

I know I am not alone in my confusion. "Good character" usually equates to "ethical" and even a cursory look at the study of ethics throughout history and across cultures will show that what constitutes "ethical behavior" is not trivially answered.

Well said. I would just like to add that "ethics", by their definition, are a standard of conduct agreed upon, and observed by a group of members, and is typically associated with those groups that may possess specialized knowledge (i.e. doctors, lawyers, psychiatrists, etc) due to the potential for the abuse of relative power and also (my guess) to insulate the these people, when faced with difficult choices, from criticisms from the general public as public opinion is often unlearned and easily manipulated.

Given the above, it is therefore clear that ethics can vary depending on "who's ethics it is". A person could be behaving in perfect observance of a specific set of ethics, but still be described as a "bad person".

Is it wrong to kill? Yet ethically justifiable killings are carried out everyday, even as we speak.

[bullet08]

good at drinking beer as mentioned before.. along with sake, scotch, and soju.. vodka is also nice.. gin maybe, as long as i don't have to jump into a hot tub after the drinking.

and also being able to hold them in after drinking one's fill.

and most important, ability to be a happy drunk.

pete

[JByrd]

To me, something like "fulfilling one's promises" is a value that does not wither and die under the scrutiny of comparative cultural anthropology. It is easy to say, easy to observe, and pretty broadly accepted as a good value. I'm sure that even an idea that atomic can be dismantled into unrecognizable bits, but a principle does not have to be defined with infinite precision to be useful to us.

[hyuna]

To me, something like "fulfilling one's promises" is a value that does not wither and die under the scrutiny of comparative cultural anthropology. It is easy to say, easy to observe, and pretty broadly accepted as a good value. I'm sure that even an idea that atomic can be dismantled into unrecognizable bits, but a principle does not have to be defined with infinite precision to be useful to us.
I agree with everything you said here.

However, I am not sure of the relationship between "fulfillng one's promises" and "good character." Fundimentally, I don't think that "good character" is captured by a set of rules that one lives by -- it must include the reasons why one follows those rules. I think there is a big difference between people who keep promises because if they are caught in a lie they will be beat with a stick, people who keep promises out of a sense of respect for the person they have made the promise to, and people who keep promises because it was something they were taught.

[JByrd]

However, I am not sure of the relationship between "fulfillng one's promises" and "good character." Fundimentally, I don't think that "good character" is captured by a set of rules that one lives by -- it must include the reasons why one follows those rules. I think there is a big difference between people who keep promises because if they are caught in a lie they will be beat with a stick, people who keep promises out of a sense of respect for the person they have made the promise to, and people who keep promises because it was something they were taught.

Absolutely! In Budoshoshinsu (I think), the author talks about the difference between people who are naturally brave in battle, and those who only go along with the brave ones out of fear of shame. If a less brave person can steel himself and survive the experience of battle, his mind may settle and eventually he can become not so different from the naturally brave person.

The author's point, I think, is that virtues often begin as doing what you're told. As one consistently puts values into action, the reasoning behind them comes into focus.

My point (the only one I really had, compared to many good ones you expressed :)) is that only by putting values into action can one come to understand why we even have them. Real life has a way of making our values clash with each other, forcing us to question and refine them. To only reason about values (and even the justifications behind them) in the abstract, the values and justifications may not get challenged in meaningful ways. It's like software that is only subjected to alpha testing.

I know this is silly, but I'm reminded of the Simpsons episode where Homer gets a new job in a bowling alley. His new boss tells him, "show up tomorrow morning, bring three rags, and change your pants." When Homer asks him why change his pants, the boss replies, "when it happens you'll know." :smiley:

I've noticed that a lot of things in life are like that: You have to do them first, only then can you get the understanding of why you ought to do them.

[Hisham]

I've noticed that a lot of things in life are like that: You have to do them first, only then can you get the understanding of why you ought to do them.

Indeed, for instance math formulas, at first you just have to use them, at a later stage you'll get to know the "hows" and "whys" there were made.The same goes for repeating the basics to get a better understanding.
Patience has an important role to get someone for the "imitation" stage to the realization stage though.

[hyuna]

only by putting values into action can one come to understand why we even have them.
I am not sure I understand you here. If you are saying that one comes to understand "proper values" by following them sometimes, but not always, I agree. If you are saying that one comes to understand them solely through following them, then I very strongly disagree. But I won't waste bandwidth arguing the case until I am sure we do disagree...


To only reason about values (and even the justifications behind them) in the abstract, the values and justifications may not get challenged in meaningful ways.
I'd like to clarify that when I ask weird questions it is not an attempt to challenge people's values. It is only an attempt to understand them better. In fact I find it disappointing when people find questions like "is lying bad when it is to protect someone" or whatever "challenging" because the tendency to get defensive makes it so much more difficult to understand what they really believe.

In other words, when I ask what "good character" or "good personality" is, I am not looking for some grand metaphysical statement or deep philosophical insight. It really was meant as a simple question. That is, I don't know if he meant it facetiously or not, but when Musha said that it is being able to tell a good joke, I think that is pretty close to what most people mean when they say it casually. I think most people think a "good personality" is someone who is warm, friendly, nice to be around, etc. But I am not sure if that was what people have in mind when they say that it is "the most prized characteristic of a kendoka" because I have never thought of being friendly as a part of kendo, per se, and also often people mean something different when they say "good character" (courageous, honorable, etc).

So you might see why I find an answer like "most people can agree on what it means" frustrating. Then, nobody has to say what they mean since, obviously, everyone intuitively knows what everyone else means. Except me, I guess. :-/


I know this is silly, but I'm reminded of the Simpsons episode
I don't think it is silly at all, and, in fact, if anyone is interested in some introductory philosophical essays, I can suggest a book: The Simpsons and Philosophy: The D'oh of Homer. I found it light and entertaining considering it is a book of philosophy essays.

[ben]

The way I thought about this was to consider which of these qualities would I nominate if there could be only one, and also, from which of these qualities could it be said the others evolve? So my answer is perseverance. And not even "perseverance/courage" as I don't see them as being synonymous, especially not from a subjective point of view. People we see as being truly courageous often do not consider themselves so. For that reason I don't think courage is a virtue in its own right, rather it's a by-product of what might be called "right action".

I think perseverance produces behaviour that others might see as courageous. I think it also engenders what I'd call functional humility (i.e. some people can be as arrogant as hell in conversation, but can actually behave in a very conscientious and sincerely ego-less manner when they are involved in something they're passionate about. These people are not humble per se, but when it comes down to it, they are capable of checking their egos).

Of course it leads to skill acquisition, since you are not easily distracted or put off. And it aids in developing "character", i.e. wisdom mixed with maturity, what you acquire from having overcome your natural limitations, from having made mistakes, from having learned not to take yourself too seriously.

"Personality" is what I would say you've got when you're the life-and-soul-of-the-party, IOW "charisma", something you are born with, not learned.

b

[JSchmidt]

It's interesting, as it's what I realised a few weeks ago. On my way to kendo I passed a pub called 'Perseverance' and it struck me being the perfect description of kendo. (And not just because it was on a pub!).
The ability to 'carry on' is extremly valuable both in kendo and in life in general.

Jakob

[JByrd]

I am not sure I understand you here. If you are saying that one comes to understand "proper values" by following them sometimes, but not always, I agree. If you are saying that one comes to understand them solely through following them, then I very strongly disagree.

I'm not saying either one.

Yes, one comes to understand values through applying them, but no, not "solely" through applying them. One must actually observe the results of applying them, think about what they mean, and then adjust accordingly.

I guess I'm basically advocating something like the scientific method. We wouldn't test our scientific theories with hypothetical data. That would be equivalent to testing our values with hypothetical situations.



I'd like to clarify that when I ask weird questions it is not an attempt to challenge people's values. It is only an attempt to understand them better. In fact I find it disappointing when people find questions like "is lying bad when it is to protect someone" or whatever "challenging" because the tendency to get defensive makes it so much more difficult to understand what they really believe.


I like your weird questions. :) I don't see anything negative in them, they are a natural product of your strong curiosity and incisive intellect.

As far as the answer to your question about lying: Of course it depends on what the lie is, and who is protecting whom from what consequence. A full reckoning must also include the possible negative ramifications of the lie if it is discovered, right? Those things can be endlessly (and usually inconclusively) debated in the abstract with hypothetical situations.

An arbitrarily selected value can sound perfectly good, or horribly misguided, when placed in an appropriately engineered hypothetical situation. Rather than spend time coming up with the ethical equivalent of a Rube Goldberg machine, it seems far more productive to just jump right into real life, and let actual situations become the proving ground for one's values.

[Charlie]

Sorry I haven't been back to check on the thread in a while, got a little distracted here. And...

I have next to nothing to add! I chose the options for the poll I did because I thought they were words that had been commonly expressed in kendo literature and rhetoric as being among the most important concepts. I could certainly have split courage/perseverance and character/personality, and maybe should have done so.

Fascinating how those two are neck and neck, but that's sort of how it was in my head, too.

[DCPan]

I think perseverance produces behaviour that others might see as courageous. I think it also engenders what I'd call functional humility (i.e. some people can be as arrogant as hell in conversation, but can actually behave in a very conscientious and sincerely ego-less manner when they are involved in something they're passionate about. These people are not humble per se, but when it comes down to it, they are capable of checking their egos).

WOW, my head hurts...why didn't I see that before! :wink:

Feeling humbled....this is something particularly worth remembering in an e-forum.

FWIW.

[GoldenShinai]

It depends on how you mean.......during a math, obvioisly skill and knowledge is most important....but if you mean by what you have accoplished as a kendoka thats a different story. Say you die, and you are looking back on your life as a kendoka........your not gonna say, "well i had skills!" you are going to think of the spiritual growth and how your life was changed by your experiences as a kendoka.....so it really pretends.

[Charlie]

Very true, GS.

Just by the way, Merriam Webster's defines character as we are using it as "moral excellence and firmness." And as Arthur and Jbyrd have shown us: just what the heck does that mean?

I've thought, as Arthur said, that character meant someone who puts their ideals into action, and this doesn't necessarily mean their ideals are universally interpreted as moral. Even an evil person - that is, evil by my standards - can have character. He sees his evil as correct behavior, correct ideals, and lives up to it.

I've always thought that when the kendo constitution says it is for the development of character that character here meant an ambiguous concept, and what was meant was that kendo should develop the individual to be assertive in his or her individuality (yet also a contributor to society, as the charter, I believe, says).

Anybody know the original Japanese word used in the charter and it it had mutliple meanings in English?

[ben]

Interestingly Charlie I don't read the Concept of Kendo that way at all. To be "assertive" of one's "individuality" is a very Western concept IMHO. Not necessarily a bad one, but certainly not the one that was in mind when the Kendo no Rinen was drafted.

Be that as it may, the Japanese phrase is "ningen keisei" which (to my gaijin way of thinking) can be broken down literally to mean "human shape becoming". I find that the phrase "human spirit" rolls of the tongue for me better than "human character". To the Japanese, "character" is a more universal, not individual, set of qualities. Character for me in English tends to be person-specific. Strangely, I baulk at the term "character-building" in English (memories of sadistic Scout masters :P). Human spirit is vaguer, more universal, but still aspirational: "a triumph of the human spirit" is a phrase often used to sell movies/books about people overcoming cruel fate. So "to develop the human spirit" might not be the official translation, but it is one that I feel better describes kendo to non-kendoka.

You really need a bi-cultural scholar to have a go at this one from a Japanese point of view, and have sufficient English to convey all its nuances. Maybe I'll post this on the UMKC forum...

b

[Charlie]

UMKC?

Excellent comment, Ben, and very much what I was looking for. Human shape becoming - actualization? Achieving one's full, or fuller, humanity? And I think you're right in stressing that for the Japanese a person is realized as a human and an individual but also focused on his place in society as part of a team.

[Washington]

What would you say is the most valued characteristic of a kendo-ka

I voted other. Seems to me that what a person values most in their kendo varies from person to person.

[ben]

UMKC?

Not University of Missouri Kansas City, but University of Melbourne Kendo Club :)

Yes, 'actualisation', absolutely would be a good translation. I was thinking of that too.

b