Buddhists

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Ive been a Buddhist for a while (ever since i stayed at a monestrary in Thialand) and have been reading quite alot and trying 2 practice equally as much, then i look at the Buddhists in the world... They chant, some think Buddha as a God, some people believe everyone is a buddha or has some sort of "buddha nature", loads of People believe in a buddha in the future that will take everyone to a pure land, people carve images of him and worship him and thinks he brings good luck some people pray TO him some people believe there are loads of spirits in the word etc etc etc etc.... All of this sort of stuff really annoys me, Buddha said he was just a man, he said not worship him, he sed because he was just Human no one should keep his remains and they should be burnt and destroyed but look sri lanka goes and opens a "Golden Temple" with his tooth in it and guards it in a secret room and all through every country in the world monestaries are full of Ginormous Golden statues of Buddha and they bow to it etc etc etc, i hate the way they treat him as divine, the last thing the buddha would have wanted was for him 2 be turned into a material object (statue), it would be an insult to his teachings.

All the spiritual Superstitions , prayer wheels, scrols , little carvings, beads, chanting, its asll against what Buddha said. When a monk came to Buddha and told him Indians purified themselves of sins in a sacred river
He says

"The fool does not purge his dark deeds by plunging himself in the water. What will any of these places acheive for him? They do not cleanse the wrongdoer. For the pure in heart every day is sacred. FOr one who acts well his entire practice is like an observance. Just bathe like that my friend. If you do not injure, lie and take what is not given what would you do in going to a river?"

I just wish Buddhists would drop their superstitions and understand that Buddhism is in fact logical and not Hocus PocuS

[Optomitrist]

ha, good luck with that. All religions have their quirks, which is one reason I'm against organized religion.


then i look at the Buddhists in the world... They chant, some think Buddha as a God, some people believe everyone is a buddha or has some sort of "buddha nature", loads of People believe in a buddha in the future that will take everyone to a pure land, people carve images of him and worship him and thinks he brings good luck some people pray TO him some people believe there are loads of spirits in the word etc etc etc etc....

I was told that when they prey to buddha they are preying the the perfect one. At the same time we are all buddha at some point or another. So wouldn't that mean we are praying to ourselves? That is what I do. Dont rely on some ficticous god to get the job done, do it yourself.

[Samanosuke]

It's true, there's a great deal of paradox in the world major religions... even Buddhism, perhaps the world's most rational religion (i.e. principally derived from thought and reflection, not revelation) has it's irational contradictions.

But it's worth remembering that all of the world's successful religions assimilate as much as they overthrow. Take Christanity for instance, most of the festivals (Christmas, Easter etc) have their location in the calendar, and a lot of their content taken directly from Europe's pagan past. So rather than demand that potential converts give up their winter festival (Yule) you tell them it's actually Christmas - that way everyone's happy :wink:

Buddhism is much the same. After the death of Buddha, the transmission of Buddhism throughout asia relied upon co-existing with the cultural norms around it - not confronting them directly. Hence all that pure-land stuff which seems so convoluted compared with the devistatingly simple axioms of Buddha himself.

What is interesting, is that Buddha seemed to know this himself. Teaching his students that the right action for each individual was heavily dependent on their current stage of development.. some are ready to be monks, some are only ready to be in the lay community. But all can (must) benefit from the dharma.

Perhaps that stuff like the adoration of Stupas and so on, is actually a bit like the way that Sunday school works here in the west. Keeping it simple so the people get draw inspiration without being overwhelmed... just a theory.

[Kiai]

I agree with Samanosuke in the fact that assimilation happens. However from what i understand, there are two vehicles of Buddhism, the Hinayana and the Mahayana. The Hinayana empathsizes that Buddha is not a god and that only devote individuals are able to attain the Great Truth while the Mahayana empathsizes that Buddha is a god and that everyone is able to attain the great truth as everyone and everything as the "seed of buddhahood". Now to deal with Samanosuke's input about assimilation, one prime example was when Buddhism was intrduces to China from India. The original form of Buddhism as to say the India version conflicted with the Confucian ideals/institutions of Chinese society. However, it was eventually assimilated and modified to incorperate Chinese and Buddhist ideals into the form of Pure Land Buddhism which i believe is the root of modern Buddhism alot of Chinese people practice today. Also since the Chinese empire at that time was the "world power at the time" this lead to the intrduction of Buddhism to Korea and Japan where i believe both modified it to fit there own ideals as well. From what i can tell from your description, Kensei, you seem to be baseing your Buddhism on Hinayana, and the The Scripture in Forty-two Sections and the things that people say that "annoy" you are Mahayana which is evident in the Lotus Sutra. As a final note, my opinions are based of my understanding of Buddhism from the Chinese veiw and before someone starts flaming me saying that i dont know what im talking about, I've been a practicing Buddhist all my life, however in Pure Land Buddhism though, so i think my opinion has some if not is totally valid.

[KenShi_JoB]

Kensei,like above people said there are 2 major buddhism sect in the world, though I not prefer using hinayana and mahayana (bad vihecle and greater vehicle). another names of these sect is theravata(those words of 500 saints(arahanta) that make a summit to collect the teaching of lord buddha after his parinibban) and ajariyavata(those believe in the words of their teacher not 500 saints). I am in thailand which is theravata buddhism, and you are also study buddhism in thailand so I suppose you are too.

Ajariyavata have many variation and no main complete scripture. They can be found mostly on china. Zen(meditation) and Sukhavati(Pure Land) are example of ajariyavata. IMHO they mutate greatly in order to fit in china.

As for Theravata, they can be found on Thailand ,Sri Langa, and many country in SE Asia. They also mutate to fit local culture which you can see from superficial stuff you describe such as golden buddha and other superstitious.

However, eventhough there are also many line within theravata, there are nearly no different in teaching. and the Tipitaka books are complete and consistence in every theravata country. As we believe, these books are as close as possible to the word of Buddha himself.

Sadly, most people in theravata, are just as superficial as you describe, they think buddha as god and most of them never read Tipitaka.

[Jacynth]

I hear you pal. It really ticks me off how religions which started off so pure and true ended up being a materialistic culture. It's not only Buddhism, take a look at Christianity. People in School always ask me why I don't celebrate Christmas, I say because I am not a Christian. They just laugh and explain that they don't believe in Christ either and just want to get the presents. Most so called Christians that I have spoken too in School don't really believe anything and just use Celebrations as an excuse to get stuff.

[KenShi_JoB]

I hear you pal. It really ticks me off how religions which started off so pure and true ended up being a materialistic culture. It's not only Buddhism, take a look at Christianity. People in School always ask me why I don't celebrate Christmas, I say because I am not a Christian. They just laugh and explain that they don't believe in Christ either and just want to get the presents. Most so called Christians that I have spoken too in School don't really believe anything and just use Celebrations as an excuse to get stuff.

Like Buddha said, nothing is last forever. It is the way of the world. No one can make every people good. Even lord Buddha can not teach everyone.

[Samanosuke]

No one can make every people good

Indeed.. yet Buddhism, despite its regional variations, comes closest I think to understanding the limitations of we humble human beings :ko:, and tolerating them without actually encouraging them...

As far as religious festivals go, I too feel a little fraudulent about celebrating an event I don't beleive in 100% - but I think the need to celebrate is a very great human one that probably predates all organised religion.. hey, it may even be the cause of it! :)

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

yeah your rite im refering To Therevada the "Elder doctrine" and the works of the Pali Canon, as opposed to mahayn works which seem to justify all sorts of wierd spirits and deities!? and this imposter Amitibah or whoever he is, probably used to comfort people because Buddha never talked about afterlife


oh and Christianity, whatever happened to turning the other cheeck , all these so called Christian leaders all the way back to the Crusades
Tom Lehrer put it Perfectly

""The Lord's our shepherd," says the psalm
But just in case, we better get a bomb"

[ZealUK]

There is a Theravada monastery not too far from London. My dad took me and my brother there when we were kids. I think we just ran around one of the stupas and just messed around I seem to remember.

http://www.amaravati.org/

[Light Samurai]

I hear you pal. It really ticks me off how religions which started off so pure and true ended up being a materialistic culture. It's not only Buddhism, take a look at Christianity. People in School always ask me why I don't celebrate Christmas, I say because I am not a Christian. They just laugh and explain that they don't believe in Christ either and just want to get the presents. Most so called Christians that I have spoken too in School don't really believe anything and just use Celebrations as an excuse to get stuff.
I don't vcelebrate Christmas, with the tree an all, I could care less for the presents. It's not reminding Jesus of his Birthday, because the 25th is not his birthday, Easter he did not rise. If Jesus wanted us to celebrate these days, he'd would of told us before his death. All these holidays are pagan in origin.

[taganahan]

i know what you mean by worshiping statues and stuff. it's the same with christianity. Jesus said not to worship any carved images of him or worse, any idol. even though people read this, they still pray/worship to a statue of Jesus.

Jesus said on another passage, "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me." if you have read this one, it's quite easy to understand. He is the way, not mary(mother of Jesus), nor any saints canonized by the pope.

on the other hand, the pope doesn't need to canonize people to become saints. it was clearly said that every people who follow Christ are considered saints.

i don't know why people don't understand the Bible. frankly, it's quite direct.

~taganahan

[Light Samurai]

i know what you mean by worshiping statues and stuff. it's the same with christianity. Jesus said not to worship any carved images of him or worse, any idol. even though people read this, they still pray/worship to a statue of Jesus.

Jesus said on another passage, "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me." if you have read this one, it's quite easy to understand. He is the way, not mary(mother of Jesus), nor any saints canonized by the pope.

on the other hand, the pope doesn't need to canonize people to become saints. it was clearly said that every people who follow Christ are considered saints.

i don't know why people don't understand the Bible. frankly, it's quite direct.

~taganahan
Amen. And Jesus said to call no one else father, and yet many people bow before the pope and call him father, essentially worshipping him. organized religion nowadays is just evil.

[Musha]

I'm very new to Buddhism and can't even say I am Buddhist or Christian. In Japan many people go to shrines but many younger Japanese don't belive in god. Its like, why do some people read there stars? Do they belive its going to happen or just do it for fun? Japanese people just do it for fun or because they belive if they wish for some thing at a shrine it will be more likely to come true. People in Japan also have a shrine in there homes to pray too.

I belive in what Musashi said, do not rely on the gods. This is why I think Buddhism is a good religion because actualy it is no a religion at all. Buddha is a teacher who teaches us how to lead our lives in the right way.

I think when people hear the Buddhists chanting they thing "Oh there praying to god!" but there chants are really just repeating the words of Buddha so they don't forget them.

[Optomitrist]

taganahan wrote - i know what you mean by worshiping statues and stuff. it's the same with christianity. Jesus said not to worship any carved images of him or worse, any idol. even though people read this, they still pray/worship to a statue of Jesus. Before bed I sometimes sit in seiza and bow to my bogu. Is that out of line? I call it my "holy armor" for several reasons.

[Denker]

From all that I've read of this thread, everyone is discussing religion and it's flaws/discrepancies. Enlightened one said to do this, but people do that... etc.

What really does it matter in how you worship? Doesn't it matter more what kind of person you are? How you treat others, how you live your life, etc?

I myself disagree with a lot of organized religion, and the bastardization of the past. But, that doesn't diminish the fact that religion has had a large, mainly positive, influence on people world-wide.

When you get to the very heart of the matter, what does it matter that you burn incense and have a 60 foot tall solid platinum statue of an idol? If you're still a decent person, isn't that what counts?

Discussing religion as a scholarly matter usually just accomplishes offending people. No point in causing needless conflict, I say.

[Optomitrist]

sooo... its okay to worship my bogu?

[Denker]

sooo... its okay to worship my bogu?

Whatever floats your boat.

[Musha]

If your Shintois you can worship any thing :wink:.

Check out this link if you have the nads:

http://masamania.com/archives/2005/01/abandened_dick.html

Lol didn't see that one coming spear blocker **** you

[KenShi_JoB]

What really does it matter in how you worship? Doesn't it matter more what kind of person you are? How you treat others, how you live your life, etc?QUOTE]

I does matter a bit. Because the way we do with our believe influence our live. For example, Buddhists that do accord to buddha teaching will even doubt the buddha words themselves. Because Buddha said to use wisdom rather than faith. Believe because you think it through, not because it's buddha word. People who just worship buddha as god, pray for his power to help them will suffer because Buddha can not help them. They have to help themselves, buddhism is about helping ourselves.

[QUOTE]Discussing religion as a scholarly matter usually just accomplishes offending people. No point in causing needless conflict, I say

If we can not discussing anything because it will cause conflict. Then how can we get smarter?

[Fonsz]

If your Shintois you can worship any thing :wink:.

Check out this link if you have the nads:

http://masamania.com/archives/2005/01/abandened_dick.html

Lol didn't see that one coming spear blocker **** you
Nice one Musha, you can worship anything you want I suppose so why not the root of all pleasure, or evil, depends which religion you follow.

A bit off tangent but this weekend I went to a Kendo seminar in Torino Italy by Sumi Sensei. It was quite good and a bit of the same as the Kodokan Seminar in the UK. But at the beginning of the sunday morning practice Sumi Sensei requested a few minutes silence for the passing away of the Pope. I found it very surreal for me since I'm not very religious to put it mildly and I am not even raised Catholic. I thought it was very wise of Sumi Sensei to respect the feelings of Catholics in Italy.
So I honestly think that Buddhist is a way to teach you something and not a religion in the way that Christianity or Islam is. If I ever wanted to do something on that matter I would prefer Buddhism, or Shinto and then an avid follower of the Dick shrine.

[CryingFreeman]

From all that I've read of this thread, everyone is discussing religion and it's flaws/discrepancies. Enlightened one said to do this, but people do that... etc.

What really does it matter in how you worship? Doesn't it matter more what kind of person you are? How you treat others, how you live your life, etc?

I myself disagree with a lot of organized religion, and the bastardization of the past. But, that doesn't diminish the fact that religion has had a large, mainly positive, influence on people world-wide.

When you get to the very heart of the matter, what does it matter that you burn incense and have a 60 foot tall solid platinum statue of an idol? If you're still a decent person, isn't that what counts?

Discussing religion as a scholarly matter usually just accomplishes offending people. No point in causing needless conflict, I say.


A very good opinion you are wise beyond your years

Anything that is regarded as a religion is based on faith or belief
even buddhism because all buddhists believe in buddha as in
who he was and what he taught, though none of you met him

believing in anything you cannot see, is guessing
some guesses will be more accurate than others
but they are all guesses

arguing about religion is an exercise in futility

but discussing it allows us to guess and guess again
rationalize our beliefs further to a point of comfort

after all we all want peace of mind

as for me

I'm Roman Catholic :-)

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

[QUOTE=Denker]From all that I've read of this thread, everyone is discussing religion and it's flaws/discrepancies. Enlightened one said to do this, but people do that... etc.

What really does it matter in how you worship? Doesn't it matter more what kind of person you are? How you treat others, how you live your life, etc?

I myself disagree with a lot of organized religion, and the bastardization of the past. But, that doesn't diminish the fact that religion has had a large, mainly positive, influence on people world-wide.

When you get to the very heart of the matter, what does it matter that you burn incense and have a 60 foot tall solid platinum statue of an idol? If you're still a decent person, isn't that what counts?

Discussing religion as a scholarly matter usually just accomplishes offending people. No point in causing needless conflict, I say.[/QUOTE



What so we shouldnt have scholarly debates about Fascism because it will ofend the fascists !?!?

Yeah well i think the way you worship comes under your general conduct, theres definately a difference between wisdom and morality, i mean you can be a really good person 100 percent honest and still worship idols, but if you want true intelligence, wisdom and knowledge ul act according to reason and not superstition, Plus if you get too into Idol worship , then it becomes organised religion, then you have rules and opression and killing and punishment and Ceremonies and it all goes out of control and before you know it u have the Inquisition and some more crusades

[CryingFreeman]

Before bed I sometimes sit in seiza and bow to my bogu. Is that out of line? I call it my "holy armor" for several reasons.

OKAYYYY!!

I think its safe to say that that is a little weird
but its only out of line if there is a God, which is debatable

i guess your bogu protects you from harm, keeps you safe, diminishes your fear
at least you can actually see what it does for you, instead of believing it does with no proof
so from that point of view, i'm sure many ancient cultures would understand

[CryingFreeman]

i'm no buddhist but the things kensei has said about buddhists who think buddha is a God gets to me as well

like i said i'm not buddhist but viewing buddha as a God seems besides the point

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

A very good opinion you are wise beyond your years

Anything that is regarded as a religion is based on faith or belief
even buddhism because all buddhists believe in buddha as in
who he was and what he taught, though none of you met him

believing in anything you cannot see, is guessing
some guesses will be more accurate than others
but they are all guesses

arguing about religion is an exercise in futility

but discussing it allows us to guess and guess again
rationalize our beliefs further to a point of comfort

after all we all want peace of mind

as for me

I'm Roman Catholic :-)

no! I dont have faith in the Buddha at all, i dont know wether he existed and i dont honestly care, the Buddha said himself he was revealing no new knowledge, only givin people a difrent way of interpreting and looking at the world, I dont care if he lived or not, it is his teaching and writings and message i abide by, not his form, His works , i dont need faith that they exist, becuase they do, their on paper and i can see them, When i have the message its irrelevant wether he existed or not. I dont need 2 know Buddha was enlightened i can gather that myself from reading his words

[Matt Molloy]

sooo... its okay to worship my bogu?

Well having seen the way some people talk (however justifiably) about the Mine set from Chiba bogu..........

I see no problem with this. :D

Cheers,

Matt.

[CryingFreeman]

']no! I dont have faith in the Buddha at all, i dont know wether he existed and i dont honestly care, the Buddha said himself he was revealing no new knowledge, only givin people a difrent way of interpreting and looking at the world, I dont care if he lived or not, it is his teaching and writings and message i abide by, not his form, His works , i dont need faith that they exist, becuase they do, their on paper and i can see them, When i have the message its irrelevant wether he existed or not. I dont need 2 know Buddha was enlightened i can gather that myself from reading his words

perhaps but you do consider them his words and not those of random wise people,this is the belief i speak of, you believe in the state of enlightenment, though it hasn't happened to you or anyone you know personally

just like people believe the bible is the word of God and that Jesus rose up from the dead

you also abide by his message
like christians abide by the bible
and muslims abide by the koran

[don don]

']no! I dont have faith in the Buddha at all, i dont know wether he existed and i dont honestly care, the Buddha said himself he was revealing no new knowledge, only givin people a difrent way of interpreting and looking at the world, I dont care if he lived or not, it is his teaching and writings and message i abide by, not his form, His works , i dont need faith that they exist, becuase they do, their on paper and i can see them, When i have the message its irrelevant wether he existed or not. I dont need 2 know Buddha was enlightened i can gather that myself from reading his words

So, 1) Is it a religion or not?
2) What is your practice?

[KenShi_JoB]

perhaps but you do consider them his words and not those of random wise people,this is the belief i speak of, you believe in the state of enlightenment, though it hasn't happened to you or anyone you know personally

just like people believe the bible is the word of God and that Jesus rose up from the dead

you also abide by his message
like christians abide by the bible
and muslims abide by the koran

I agree that buddhists(I talk about only people that do serious study Buddhism, not superficial one) do believe in his word, but believe and faith is two different things. I don't know is it really his word, and I don't know is he really exist, but I care not. I read his word and I think it's true. It's not about enlightening stuff which I can not proof. but something simple like "desire something is suffering, when we can not get or lose that thing". It is scientifically believe.

Faith is to believe no matter what because it is god words.

[Hank]

sooo... its okay to worship my bogu?The trick is to get other people to worship your bogu as well. Then, after a few miracles and relics (the shinai of 1000 keiko?) you start mentioning donations.

Hank.

[Optomitrist]

good idea, I can claim my shinai is holy and charge people to be hit with it.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

perhaps but you do consider them his words and not those of random wise people,this is the belief i speak of, you believe in the state of enlightenment, though it hasn't happened to you or anyone you know personally

just like people believe the bible is the word of God and that Jesus rose up from the dead

you also abide by his message
like christians abide by the bible
and muslims abide by the koran


no no no not at all, Buddhism is not based on faith, faith is placing you trust in some sort of authority for which there is no logical basis to fill, for if u have satisfied the argument logicaly there is no longer any need for faith since faith is essentialy an assumption. Chrsitiantiy, belief in God, Koran require you to submit yourself to another force or authiority, namely the word of a profit etc In other words accept someone else has the answers to questions and you dont have these ansers , Buddha ratherr asks you to search for the answers urself (thru meditation) -- this is reflected in its theory of ethics, rather than being prescriptive absolutist nd deontological,and universalist fixed rules that u have to abide by because theyre dictated by God, it actualy says you should work on sculpting good habits of character and being compassionate, nothing to do with divine law, you dont need faith, only observation that you get the best outcomes and there is the most peace through the way you act etc etc theres a whole load of stuff we studied in theology conected 2 it but basicly Buddhism is not stirctly speaking a faith or a religion unless it is connected with Ceremony but Buddha never said anything about that

[Samanosuke]

']no no no not at all, Buddhism is not based on faith, faith is placing you trust in some sort of authority for which there is no logical basis to fill, for if u have satisfied the argument logicaly there is no longer any need for faith since faith is essentialy an assumption. Chrsitiantiy, belief in God, Koran require you to submit yourself to another force or authiority, namely the word of a profit etc In other words accept someone else has the answers to questions and you dont have these ansers , Buddha ratherr asks you to search for the answers urself (thru meditation) -- this is reflected in its theory of ethics, rather than being prescriptive absolutist nd deontological,and universalist fixed rules that u have to abide by because theyre dictated by God, it actualy says you should work on sculpting good habits of character and being compassionate, nothing to do with divine law, you dont need faith, only observation that you get the best outcomes and there is the most peace through the way you act etc etc theres a whole load of stuff we studied in theology conected 2 it but basicly Buddhism is not stirctly speaking a faith or a religion unless it is connected with Ceremony but Buddha never said anything about that

I agree with Kensei. Buddhism is unique in world religions by stressing questions rather than answers. It's probably the reason why it has limited appeal in the west :ermm:

[taganahan]

don't you guys think that faith unites us all and religion separates us all?

~taganahan

[Musha]

I've been thinking for a while that there are two types of religion. Antient religions that relied on faith to over come hardships. The Aztecs even belives in sacrifice to there gods because they had faith that there gods would protect them from things like famin.

These are pure faith religtions. The other types of religions are spititual religions. Ones that ask us what we are here for and try to give reasons. These often have profits and only one god like Christianity. God it the faith and Jesus is the one who wants to help us be better people. So when we have pice we can better our lives, when we have hardship we can have faith in god to save us. I think Christianity is a mixed faith and spiritual religion.

Buddhism is a pure spiritual religion and tries to even prohibit people from having faith in god because it is much better to help our selfs.

The thing I can't work out is why the Romans belived in a pegan religion but were belived to live in luxtury.

[padishah]

']Koran require you to submit yourself to another force or authiority, namely the word of a profit etc In other words accept someone else has the answers to questions and you dont have these ansers , Buddha ratherr asks you to search for the answers urself (thru meditation) --

That may be true in some quarters but not all, as a Sufi - which is an expression of Islam, we learn to reflect through meditation, to look for the God-nature if you will within, in fact, it's very similar to Buddhism. It's not prescribed doctrine, it's about direct experience. The words of the Koran guide towards a goal and are not an end within itself, like a koan if you will. Yes, surrendering one's ego is part of that, as is true in many expressions of Buddhism. Whereas a Buddhist seeks Nirvana, we seek annihilation of the ego and unity in God - it's two paths on the same route. :-)

Questions and seeking are the whole point, and not unique to Buddhism alone.

Sadly, when we organise into 'religions', it becomes a tool for exploitation by the powerful and a means to control others, the direct experience is lost and faith is all that remains.

[Optomitrist]

I've been thinking for a while that there are two types of religion. Antient religions that relied on faith to over come hardships. The Aztecs even belives in sacrifice to there gods because they had faith that there gods would protect them from things like famin.

These are pure faith religtions. The other types of religions are spititual religions. Ones that ask us what we are here for and try to give reasons. These often have profits and only one god like Christianity. God it the faith and Jesus is the one who wants to help us be better people. So when we have pice we can better our lives, when we have hardship we can have faith in god to save us. I think Christianity is a mixed faith and spiritual religion.

Buddhism is a pure spiritual religion and tries to even prohibit people from having faith in god because it is much better to help our selfs.

The thing I can't work out is why the Romans belived in a pegan religion but were belived to live in luxtury.

Interesting Musha I never thought of it that way.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

That may be true in some quarters but not all, as a Sufi - which is an expression of Islam, we learn to reflect through meditation, to look for the God-nature if you will within, in fact, it's very similar to Buddhism. It's not prescribed doctrine, it's about direct experience. The words of the Koran guide towards a goal and are not an end within itself, like a koan if you will. Yes, surrendering one's ego is part of that, as is true in many expressions of Buddhism. Whereas a Buddhist seeks Nirvana, we seek annihilation of the ego and unity in God - it's two paths on the same route. :-)

Questions and seeking are the whole point, and not unique to Buddhism alone.

Sadly, when we organise into 'religions', it becomes a tool for exploitation by the powerful and a means to control others, the direct experience is lost and faith is all that remains.


are you really a Sufi? My grandfather is a Dervish in Iran (of the Nematullah order), ive studies alot about Sufi'ism, yeah its really interesting idea, and very close to Buddhism, but i would rather talk about Sufi'ism as completely seperated from the Koran, in My view and many historians, Sufi'ism Predated Islam and was forced to in some ways comply with it otherwise it would be oppresed and extinguished (much like Zoroastrianism was Obliterated by Islam in Iran) . Most sufis generaly dispose of the concept of Organised religion and rather than collective submission to rules they are very much Seekers of Truth through expeirence with the Divine, in my view Sufism and Islam are very seperate, it seems to have its thoughts rooted more in Zoroastrian, Mazda, Manichaeist pantheist beliefs, and i wouldnt be suprised since it grew up in Isfahan in Iran (my hometown) the centre of all those religions,
As the Sufi master Dihlavi Said



"am a pagan and a worshipper of love: the creed (of Muslims) I do not need;
Every vein of mine has become taunt like a wire,
the (Brahman’s) girdle I do not need.
Leave from my bedside, you ignorant physician!
The only cure for the patient of love is the sight of his beloved –
other than this no medicine does he need.
If there be no pilot in our boat, let there be none:
We have god in our midst: the sea we do not need.
The people of the world say that Khusrau worships idols.
So he does, so he does; the people he does not need,
the world he does not need"


i love that poem

[Hisham]

I suggest you research the zuhd concept in islam, you'll have a clearer view from where sufism came from.

Do you believe that all people think as deeply as you do, some do and some don't for different reasons, what about the latter? For me Budhism and i'm not talking about it's "popularised" versions is elitist, not everybody can get to nirvana(enlightenment), same thing as not everybody will understand you when you talk philosophy doesn't matter how good you're at comunicating. What about these people? koran doesn't speak only to great thinkers, it speaks to everybody, the purpose of the arabic style of the koran is to give any reader a trancendant meaning, want to that is why i always stress on the fact of learning arabic or at least discuss it with somebody who talks it to have a better understanding of islam, "organization" is there because of that, in real life, people are poor, rich, educated and uneducated and so on. In islam there's a general principle which should be obvious in the imam's attitude (the person that leads the prayer),it's about recognizing the level of the people that come to the mosque to listen, for instance in my country the fact that classical arabic isn't known by everybody makes the imam explain principles in our arabic or amazigh dialect.
Anyway stating that islam is organized meaning that it's only a "believe in this and shut up" religion shows that you haven't even scratched the surface my friend.

Hishaam

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

no matter how clear you communicate, how good your dialect is, and how simple it is so you can communicate to even the poor it doesnt make any difference at all if what your saying is basicly wrong, i mean nursery rhymes are simple and can be communicated to the poor, as can fairy tales, theres a difference between that and the truth and i see no evidence whatsoeever that the koran holds any sort of truth whatsoever, there were people preaching one God a l ong time before the koran came about ..

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

and i know all about Zuhd and the concept of straying away from desire yes its in in the koran but its also contrdictory when the Prophet tells you to loot the riches of the people youve warred upon, when there are houries waiting for you in heaven and virgins , and when even the koran says
"(Koran 69:30-37) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

So basicly im feeling a highly contradictory message ...
and alot of people will reply saying "oh no your interpreting it wrong its open to interpreatation " etc etc, well if it its such a "simple" message wouldnt a poor person be even able to interpret it? < i think not

Now sufis believe in universal love and Complete and utter tolerence since they believe that God is in everything, very Smiliar to Hindu concept of Brahman and Zoroastrian of Ahura mAzda or Ultimate wisdom and goodness prevailing in the world, and then how would you explain that all the great sufi masters and even the FOUNDER of Sufism Jalal Al Din Rumi, and people like Hafez, Khayyam and Saadi all spoke and wrote in Persian, and preached universal love,

OK Rumi says ""Come, come, whoever you are. Worshiper, Wanderer, Lover of Leaving; ours is not a caravan of despair. Though you have broken your vows a thousand times...Come, come again, Come" - But in the Korean those who break their vows a thousand times go to hell,

Also dont you find it odd that all these Sufi's revere wine and drunknenness and intoxication as the clsoest way of reaching God, the bulk of their work speaks of Divine INtoxication from the Wine Cup

"In his sixties, The Sufi Master Hafiz composed more than half of his ghazals, and taught a small circle of disciples. As tradition states, he began a forty day and night vigil at the age of thirty, longing to be united with his creator; upon completion of the vigil, he met his Master Attar, who gave him a cup of wine to drink. Having drunk the wine, Hafiz attained 'Cosmic Consciousness' or 'God-Realization' His poetry at this time talks with the authority of a Master who is united with God."


And drinking is against islam by the way

[padishah]

No that's not correct, I've never met a sufi who drinks. It's metaphorical, if someone claims to be a sufi and drinks alcohol, then they are not a muslim. There are many types of sufi, some within Islam, some outside, some say you cannot be a muslim and a sufi, some say by being a sufi, you must be a muslim. There are so many people who think sufism is nothing more than getting intoxicated and reading poetry, it's about as accurate as saying Bin Ladin represents Islam. It's an old arguement and irrelevant to the point I was making.

Let's not get distracted, I was focussing on the unity of all belief systems, if you don't want to discuss but argue then fine, proceed with my contribution. I was looking for a well balanced conversation, not an arguement.

[JSchmidt]

i see no evidence whatsoeever that the koran holds any sort of truth whatsoever, there were people preaching one God a l ong time before the koran came about ..

You can say that about any of the big current religions...

Jakob

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

No that's not correct, I've never met a sufi who drinks. It's metaphorical, if someone claims to be a sufi and drinks alcohol, then they are not a muslim. There are many types of sufi, some within Islam, some outside, some say you cannot be a muslim and a sufi, some say by being a sufi, you must be a muslim. There are so many people who think sufism is nothing more than getting intoxicated and reading poetry, it's about as accurate as saying Bin Ladin represents Islam. It's an old arguement and irrelevant to the point I was making.

Let's not get distracted, I was focussing on the unity of all belief systems, if you don't want to discuss but argue then fine, proceed with my contribution. I was looking for a well balanced conversation, not an arguement.


Have you read anything of ancient sufi masters works? Yes Drinking is metaphor for seeking god and the wine that of enlightenment but there is no doubt whatsoeever to any educated person in the ways of sufism that wine and drinking play a LARGE role in getting closer to God, it is through intense pleasure that one feels the divine, which is why so many Sufis preached hedonism and the pursuit of pleasure, which is why they speak so much of the "beloved" and making love

Khayam said:
Bring to me Wine, the life giving Wine;
Pour ecstasy into my cup, excuse my desire.

Hafez sang:
Oh Wine bearer bring the Wine,
Come and offer it to all.

Rumi:
If there is any lover in the world, 0 Muslim, it is I.
If there is any believer, infidel, or Christian hermit, it is I.
The wine, the cup-bearer, the musician, the instrument and the music,
The beloved, the candle, the liquor and the inebriation, it is I.
The seventy-two religious sects in the world
Do not really exist;
I swear by God every religious sect-it is I.

[padishah]

Quoting out of context, and wording things forcefully, do not further your position. I don't think you really know what you are talking about, you are speaking from the kind of old pre-conceptions that orthodox muslims accused sufis of in years gone by. You speak of sufis getting drunk? Yes on love of God, not alchohol, the idea is to portray intoxication in the Beloved, not to drink in the literal sense. You talk of hedonism? This is too much, it's almost insulting, in fact, it IS insulting. You are picking words without understanding anything. Sufi texts work on many layers, if you think that wine drinking and making love are what sufism about you are plain wrong. I'm not going to discuss this any further with you, I don't want conflict but you obviously do, reading back through your posts, you are parochial and agressive, you don't want to seek commonality or strive towards a consensus, you want agression. I was seeking to form an agreement and share common views, you don't want that, you want to pick apart and seek division, and to add insult to injury you quote things which you obviously have no understanding of, you find any true representation of the sufi path by searching on Google, and if your grandfather is indeed a sufi, he would certainly not agree with you either.

I will not speak further to you.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

talk about being all closed up, im verry sorry but i honestly think im in a better position to speak than you, firstly my family Name is SAGHARCHI and its an old sufi surname, what does it mean? saghar- Wine Bringer it meanst master of the wine, and im not quoting out of context , theyre rhyming couplets , they are stand alone poems, much like haikus, thats what a Ghazal is. Thirdly Hedonism and Sufism are highly connected, this is not an insult but a compliment my wayward friend

Sufism believes that the physical world is an illusion and all chainging material things are meaningless , YES but it also believes that physical sensation can be used as a MEANS of getting closer to god, IM NOT SAYING ALL SUFISM IS DRINKING AND MAKING LOVE, IM SAYING ITS AN ASPECT OF IT THAT CAN BRING YOU CLOSER TO GOD, SUFISM IS IN THE MAIN MEDITATION AND ATTAINMENT OF TRANSIC STATES, DO YOU FOLLOW ME?

In fact in his Personal diary hafez wrote, when he had become grey and old that --- ""Yesterday at dawn I came upon one or two glasses of wine-as sweet as the lip of the Cup-bearer they seemed to my palate. And then, my brain afire, I desired to return to my mistress, Youth, but between us a divorce had been pronounced." In other words he wants to return to the days of his youth... bear in mind this isnt a poem

I mean it was a well known fact all these poeple drank, its not really much of a surpsie!?!

You really need to study the Sufism of Hazrat Inyat Khan
he says
"Sufis believe in an essential unity of the great religions of the world. However, this does not mean they believe the various religious creeds and doctrines are identical. Rather, they view all religions as having sprung from the same spiritual source. The social and outer forms of different religions vary due to the circumstances at the time that they were founded. Other differences in doctrine and belief can be attributed to later accretions, after the death of the founder"


The social and outer forms of different religions vary due to the circumstances at the time that they were founded. thats why its ok for them to drink wine

Think about it logicaly, the sufis believe God is in everything and the worl di s reflection of his love, thus it means that there is no Ego or self, since God is in the self, and the ego is a illusion that we hve because we THINK we are seperate from God, if there is no ego and no self then our conduct is also an illusion and a meere part of god, thus there can really be no Ethical or Moral code for our behaviour (stuff like dont kill or dont drink wine) so sufis believe you have to act in accordance not with any rules people set down or codes or ethics, but by getting close to god, the easiest way to do this is to practice universal LOVE, which is the quality god posses, namely "omni benevolence" Im sorry if you cant understand this but im doing my best over here no need to act like a child and say your not talking to me anymore

[Hisham]

']and i know all about Zuhd and the concept of straying away from desire yes its in in the koran

Somehow you only mention what goes with your view like somebody who's in politics.

']
"(Koran 69:30-37) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

The loot in this verse is the booty of war from the battleground which is altogether different from what you're hinting at("Rules of engagement" existed since the first war muslims fought,i'll let you research that) .It consists of the wealth, provisions and equipment captured from the camps and military headquarters of the combatant armies and may legitimately be appropriated. So your so called contradiction has no foundation. Now i'am positive that when you're reading Koran you're only looking to confirm your misconceptions not verily trying to understand. Look man, reading the Koran and wanting to argue about what's in it without any knowledge of at least basic things like the context will always be a vain venture.


']
Now sufis believe in universal love and Complete and utter tolerence since they believe that God is in everything,

Again have you really read the Koran?


']
But in the Koran those who break their vows a thousand times go to hell,

What you want to say is that there's no place for tolerance in islam, say that to the jewish comunity in Iran and Morocco or to the christian comunities all around the middle-east, and get there answer.


']
And drinking is against islam by the way

One of the basic principles on islam is about being alert and having as clear a mind as possible, anything that impeeds sobriety is to be avoided.
There's something about the way you express yourself which make me doubt your claim to being budhist.
As a final note from my part on this subject, Kensei your aproach to reading the translated koran is definitely wrong. If you're really a truth seeker you'd do what it takes to understand, in this case learning or relearning arabic will trully be a great help to you.
Peace

PS: as far as i know sufi sects in morocco aren't into drinking, might be the case for the iranian ones but not here.

[kosh]

']Ive been a Buddhist for a while (ever since i stayed at a monestrary in Thialand) and have been reading quite alot and trying 2 practice equally as much, then i look at the Buddhists in the world... They chant, some think Buddha as a God, some people believe everyone is a buddha or has some sort of "buddha nature", loads of People believe in a buddha in the future that will take everyone to a pure land, people carve images of him and worship him and thinks he brings good luck some people pray TO him some people believe there are loads of spirits in the word etc etc etc etc.... All of this sort of stuff really annoys me, Buddha said he was just a man, he said not worship him, he sed because he was just Human no one should keep his remains and they should be burnt and destroyed but look sri lanka goes and opens a "Golden Temple" with his tooth in it and guards it in a secret room and all through every country in the world monestaries are full of Ginormous Golden statues of Buddha and they bow to it etc etc etc, i hate the way they treat him as divine, the last thing the buddha would have wanted was for him 2 be turned into a material object (statue), it would be an insult to his teachings.

All the spiritual Superstitions , prayer wheels, scrols , little carvings, beads, chanting, its asll against what Buddha said. When a monk came to Buddha and told him Indians purified themselves of sins in a sacred river
He says

"The fool does not purge his dark deeds by plunging himself in the water. What will any of these places acheive for him? They do not cleanse the wrongdoer. For the pure in heart every day is sacred. FOr one who acts well his entire practice is like an observance. Just bathe like that my friend. If you do not injure, lie and take what is not given what would you do in going to a river?"

I just wish Buddhists would drop their superstitions and understand that Buddhism is in fact logical and not Hocus PocuS

One could also say the same about Christ, one famous quote from the New testement being "the kingdom of heavan is within you" and not necessarily some heavanily abode, if JC (if you believe he ever existed?) was around today he wouldn't have been real a happy individual, especially at the sight of the hyprocracy of Christinanity etc. In the words of Nietzche the only true Christian was the one who was crucified! (words to the effect)

[Light Samurai]

One could also say the same about Christ, one famous quote from the New testement being "the kingdom of heavan is within you" and not necessarily some heavanily abode, if JC (if you believe he ever existed?) was around today he wouldn't have been real a happy individual, especially at the sight of the hyprocracy of Christinanity etc. In the words of Nietzche the only true Christian was the one who was crucified! (words to the effect)
Actually, it can also be translated as "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you, and among you." That is to say that God is within, and outside. After all, a Kingdom has a imperial rule.. :)

EDIT: I hate it when people say God is not in nature. He is everywhere. Inside the trees, beaneath a rock, inside the rock, etc. Therefore, we should take some respect to God's creation, but using it as we need, not killing it for fun.

[Light Samurai]

All the spiritual Superstitions , prayer wheels, scrols , little carvings, beads, chanting, its asll against what Buddha said. When a monk came to Buddha and told him Indians purified themselves of sins in a sacred river

Well then, I guess you have not read the Paramita Sutra, where all Buddha's and Bodhisatva's were present. he did encouage chanting as a form of meditation.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

It consists of the wealth, provisions and equipment captured from the camps and military headquarters of the combatant armies and may legitimately be appropriated. So your so called contradiction has no foundation.
i never said illegitamately appropriated, i said that if according to Zuhd one should stray away from worldy things since material wants and desires are insubstantial and not of worth then why are you encouraged to even fight or get loot in the first place!?!

Seconldy when i say "God is in everything" i am refering specificaly to Sufi belief,
well lets have a little lesson shall we,, during the dark ages the works of plato and aristotle were burnt by the Christiains and the inquisition banned "enlightened" knowledge of the classicists, so the arabs like Ibn Sina etc Translated all the works into arabic and studied them, they looked first to aristotle who preached ultimate reason and scientific views of life, "a posteriori" reasoning to put it precisely, Aristotle didnt really appeal to muslims who looked more to faith, God, and the divine than to the natural world. They found Plato, an "a priori" philosopher who believed in the logic of linguistics, then people like Ibn Sina formulated such things as the KAlam cosmological argument using reasoning not far from that of platos ,, namely logical use of words and arguing from one thing to another (from the universe to god for instance).

Then came the quesiton, if God is PERFECT and ALL PRESENT (omniscient and omnipresent) then how can he be external to the physical world, because if god is Omnipresent then how can there be anything external to him? they saw Aristotels god the Prime Mover who lived outside of the universe and said no, this is external and thus not in our world
then they thought, if God if the perfect supreme being then he must be In EVERYTHING, therefore everything must be a part of him, because if he is not present in our world, than that is a quality he lack, and god cant lack anything
thus the pantheistic beliefs gave rise to this and it was majorly incorporated by sufism, the idea that god is within everyone , and not external to oneself
yes it goes against the Koran but like i said before sufism isnt bound to Islam that tightly in fact hafez said himself, and im translating this personaly from iranian so it wont be that acurate (sory)

"salha del talabeh jam e jam as ma mikard an cheh khod dasht ze beganeh tamanah mikard - gohari kaz sadfeh kon o makan beeroon ast talab as gomshodegan e labeh darya mikard " - For years a man begged others for understanding of the divine, and sought a God whom he already possesed

"bi deli dar hamah ahval Khodah ba oo boo o nemididash o az door khoda yaaa mikard"
- He did not recognise that God was within him and Kept praying loudly into the distance (where there was nothing)


And im really not for this Creed of ultimate respect for any religion , i dont think religious beliefs should be any more respected than any other beliefs such as believing in capital punishment for instance, of course they should be respected GENERALy and not insulted or mocked but im within my rights to criticise them (even harshly) specialy since my criticism dont involve any made up information. Religion is not a concrete reality, you have to face up to the fact that it is in the end a leap of faith, and faith goes against logic.
I dont want to cause personal conflict or anything, as long as im not insulting you personaly i dont see why you think im being agressive, if i wanted to be nice and agreeable about islam or what you think i wouldnt need to post in the first place, the whole point of Debate is to argue your case over the other persons


was around today he wouldn't have been real a happy individual, especially at the sight of the hyprocracy of Christinanity etc. In the words of Nietzche the only true Christian was the one who was crucified! (words to the effect)

So true
Ghandi said
"if it wasnt for you Christians i would be a christian myself "

[padishah]

One thing I've always lived by is the rule of tolerating others and being nice. But sorry, you really are so far up your own arsehole, it's a wonder you can see daylight, you are so arrogant, it is beyond words. I love the way that you're an authority on everything, you know very little.

You feed off conflict and are a very, very uptight individual, I pity you. Are you a child by any chance? Do you just feed from agression?

For Gods sake, or whatever it is you believe in, because I seriously doubt it's Buddhism, take a step back and just calm down. You're like some kind of rabbid looney shouting when nobody wants to hear. I don't know what you're wanting here, it's obviously a fight because civil conversation and seeking a friendly discussion is completely lost on you. Theres no way to discuss anything with you is there, everything, even the most kind words are twisted by you and spat out with venom, what has made you like this? Chill out.

Forgive my annoyance, but as the saying goes malificos non patieris vivere.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

One thing I've always lived by is the rule of tolerating others and being nice. But sorry, you really are so far up your own arsehole, it's a wonder you can see daylight, you are so arrogant, it is beyond words. I love the way that you're an authority on everything, you know very little.

You feed off conflict and are a very, very uptight individual, I pity you. Are you a child by any chance? Do you just feed from agression?

For Gods sake, or whatever it is you believe in, because I seriously doubt it's Buddhism, take a step back and just calm down. You're like some kind of rabbid looney shouting when nobody wants to hear. I don't know what you're wanting here, it's obviously a fight because civil conversation and seeking a friendly discussion is completely lost on you. Theres no way to discuss anything with you is there, everything, even the most kind words are twisted by you and spat out with venom, what has made you like this? Chill out.

Forgive my annoyance, but as the saying goes malificos non patieris vivere.

Wow, well at least , as being a venemous person up my own arsehole and twisted and obviously knowing very little as an idiot im glad that i didnt descend to the level of personal insult (as you did), so for the record, i wanted to keep it strictly subject related and scholarly and you descended into insult.. Now u have highlighted all my childish immaturities for me thank you so much. If thats all you have to say then i think we can close the thread since i am clearly the one who needs to "calm down"

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

oh and i also have a nice saying for you, Takuan Soho

"Even though one may say such things.. if a man has not been enligthened, you may explain for a hundred days and he may listen for those hundred, but he is little likely to gain the way "

[gsx1100s]

A valuable link for those that love :

1. Buddhist quotes

2. Monkey (as in the series " Monkey magic")

I hope you enjoy! :)

cheers Michael

http://www.monkeyheaven.com/narratorquotes.html

[Musha]

Ｗating Monkey or Songoku (In Japan) got me into Buddhism a little. The 1970s live action version is best I think. Wish I knew where to get the origional Japanese version. It was translated by English actors and lost to Japanese audiences.

[CryingFreeman]

']oh and i also have a nice saying for you, Takuan Soho

"Even though one may say such things.. if a man has not been enligthened, you may explain for a hundred days and he may listen for those hundred, but he is little likely to gain the way "

yep thats what christians say about the holy spirit, apparently unless you have recieved the holy spirit you cannot understand the ways of God

See most religions go along that principle, you must first believe, then and only then will you understand, or only then would it make sense

that kind of reasoning just doesnt hold water

in the scientific world it would be called pseudoscience,

in science you start with evidence and develop conclusions
in pseudoscience you start with a conclusion and develop evidence

most religions seem to be pseudoscientific in my opinion

but buddhism strikes me as being the "politicians choice" of religions
because it says everything and nothing, to every question the answer is yes and no

if someone speaks a lot but doesnt really say anything, are they worth listening to?

[Samanosuke]

if someone speaks a lot but doesnt really say anything, are they worth listening to?

Maybe... One of Buddha's "sermons" consisted of nothing more than him holding up a flower in silence... :old_man:

[CryingFreeman]

Maybe... One of Buddha's "sermons" consisted of nothing more than him holding up a flower in silence... :old_man:

See thats classic, you could interpret that in so many ways

some would say it was about appreciating the beauty of a flower and drawing parallels and metaphors between that and the lives we all lead

some would say it was an exercise in meditation learning to focus on one thing
or perhaps focus on nothing

perhaps he was lost in his own thoughts and tired of giving sermons

even by not saying anything, its saying a lot, and nothing at all

so is it really worth contemplating on?

is it thought provoking? yes

is it conclusive? no

is it in anyway useful? debatable

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

in my personal opinion Buddha comes to very conclusive conclusions, four noble truths, eightfold path, dependant origniation, Cauaslity all seem to be quite substantial and meaningful, what the quote really meant, i think , and obviously its open to interpretation, is that you can hear information, wether it is scientific religious or spiritual and you can hear theories and wisdom, but unless you have the understanding necessary to absorb such information then it will be useless, its like plunging a metal ball into water, it doesnt take anything in whereas a Sponge would


the theories of buddhism actualy have alot of corellation with those of quantum physics and im trying to get hold of a book about the parallels between buddha and einstein, it all sounds quite intresting, i dont think that buddhism says "nothing" as you say, it cant be as simple as that

[CryingFreeman]

']in my personal opinion Buddha comes to very conclusive conclusions, four noble truths, eightfold path, dependant origniation, Cauaslity all seem to be quite substantial and meaningful, what the quote really meant, i think , and obviously its open to interpretation, is that you can hear information, wether it is scientific religious or spiritual and you can hear theories and wisdom, but unless you have the understanding necessary to absorb such information then it will be useless, its like plunging a metal ball into water, it doesnt take anything in whereas a Sponge would


the theories of buddhism actualy have alot of corellation with those of quantum physics and im trying to get hold of a book about the parallels between buddha and einstein, it all sounds quite intresting, i dont think that buddhism says "nothing" as you say, it cant be as simple as that

Your right its not as simple as saying nothing

i guess what i'm trying to say can be represented using the water metaphor you have used

the metal ball will absorb nothing, the sponge would

but my question is that surely if something is undoubtably true, it would be absorbed by both a metal ball and a sponge

[KenShi_JoB]

yep thats what christians say about the holy spirit, apparently unless you have recieved the holy spirit you cannot understand the ways of God

See most religions go along that principle, you must first believe, then and only then will you understand, or only then would it make sense

that kind of reasoning just doesnt hold water

in the scientific world it would be called pseudoscience,

in science you start with evidence and develop conclusions
in pseudoscience you start with a conclusion and develop evidence

most religions seem to be pseudoscientific in my opinion

but buddhism strikes me as being the "politicians choice" of religions
because it says everything and nothing, to every question the answer is yes and no

if someone speaks a lot but doesnt really say anything, are they worth listening to?

No, buddhism (only Theravadha sect) is not what you said.

1. It does not have to believe it first in order to understand, Buddhism is taught against believing by pure faith. Buddhism ask to believe by individual wisdom.

2. as for above reason, it isn't pseudoscience.

3. Buddha is not said everything and nothing like you said (eventhough, zen monk like to do that). His teaching is apparent. He offer us cause and effect, why we have to suffer, the way to get rid of suffering. Listen to his cause and effect, and use our wisdom.

4. You can not undertand what enlightening like. It the same reason as people who always sleep cannot know awake. True, it similar to christian teaching that you said. I think that even kendo have teaching like this. :P

but the quote of Takuan Soho, it is only true if the quote mean that enlighten one can not explain what the state of enlightening like to normal people, but enlighten one can give cause and effect to normal people, so they can use their wisdom to think and guide their way. It is like kendo, sensei can only guide, you have to discover yourself.

To kensei, I think you are too aggressive. Buddha taught Buddhist to not to be insult the others' believe. Scholarly argument is ok, but don't you think some time you are too aggressive. You can not make people understand you easily by tell them that they are stupid first.

Sorry everyone, my english is quite bad. I try my best here to communicate.

[nothing]

Buddha has taught....

"There are 3 kinds of people in this world. The 1st are those who are like letters carved in rock; they easily give way to anger and retain their angry thoughts for a long time. The 2nd are those who are like letters written in sand; they give way to anger also, but their angry thoughts quickypass away. The 3rd is those who are like letters written in running water; they do not retain their passing thoughts; they let abuse and cuncomfortable gossip pass by unnoticed; their minds are always pure and undisturbed ."
__________________

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

i know i fall short of Buddhas teachings in the way i argue sometimes, but that really comes just out of passion and as i grow older i think il learn to be a little more level headed, but generaly speaking i believe in over all peace both phyisicaly and mentaly , and yes the whole issue of not believing on face value is indeed central to Buddhas teaching

donot accept anything merely because it agrees with your pre-conceived notions. . . But when you know for yourselves -- these things are moral, these things are blameless, these things are praised by the wise, these things, when performed and undertaken, conduce to well-being and happiness -- then do you live acting accordingly.
-- the Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anguttara_Nikaya&action=edit) III.65

[Richmond-san]

To all of you, I know this may seem like an odd thing to say but I would like to let you all know that your vivacity and interest is most appreciated in the realm of religion and philosophy. So many people in this "civilized modern" era have disposed of the idea of something greater than themselves, something to aspire to, it doesn't matter if it's Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Hinduism or anything at all as long as it is something. The fact that you all are taking the time to argue your points and feel the point is valid and not lost, in this you give hope to many.

Richmond-san

[Anjin-san]

Dudes, if we all got together and got drunk, the conversation would be dynamite.

[Hisham]

']i never said illegitamately appropriated, i said that if according to Zuhd one should stray away from worldy things since material wants and desires are insubstantial and not of worth then why are you encouraged to even fight or get loot in the first place!?!


I guess my final note continues...

If you really knew anything about the Zuhd you would've noticed that it's not mandatory since not everybody has the strong spirit it requires and can get his jihad (here is meant as the inner struggle to get to peace assakina) to that level, it's there for the people that want to go that far. Strength of the spirit differs from a human being to another,
As far as faith being first in islam,that isn't true the process could start from science and many other ways then ends with faith, Omar ibnu al khattab (a major companion of Mohamed (pbuh)) who was a judge in Mecca didn't believe the messenger straight away he questioned, doubted then became muslim after much thinking opposit Abu Bakr who trusted the man who Mohamed (pbuh) was(one of his "nicknames" was the al ameen which means the trustworthy one before islam) and folowed him because he knew his friend. As Mohamed (pbuh) is not with us now, muslims have to do it Omar's way, which most of us sadly don't do.
Kensei what did Mohamed (pbuh) leave behind him, he died poor, no great monuments nothing just the Qur'an which his companions recited and the way he lived.

The creator can't be thought of as a thing which is inside or outside , AL firaq al kalaamya (the semantics groups if you will)started the metaphysical discussions centered on words in the Qur'an about God, they went so far that words became more importan than practice, the thing is God in the Qur'an tells people to learn and know about him from studying and analysing his creation.
BTW you mentioned in another post that people believed in god before islam, who said the opposite of that statement, muslims believe that the message is one from Adam passing by Noah(Nooh), Abraham (Ibraheem) Moses(Musaa), Jesus(Issaa) ending with Mohamed peace be upon them all.
If you read the Qur'an you would've known, i didn't mention all the prophets(Job"Ayoob"...etc) and messengers(Joseph"Yusuf"...etc) of course since it's a pretty long list.
I strongly advise you to do a revision, ask yourself one question before throwing yourself into a subject, do i really know that much about it?
Anyway i'm tired of being the corrector (i'm not a shaykh, i just try to do my homework before saying stuff) when it comes to your views about islam, you inherited islam but you missed most if not all its basic concepts cuse of your little "cultural revolution". I didn't inherit it since my parents never and still don't give a damn about religion, i had to do it Omar's way and still testing.
you can't build an engine without knowing about how its parts work together.
Anyway man, i hope we all get wiser as time goes by,
Peace

[CryingFreeman]

To all of you, I know this may seem like an odd thing to say but I would like to let you all know that your vivacity and interest is most appreciated in the realm of religion and philosophy. So many people in this "civilized modern" era have disposed of the idea of something greater than themselves, something to aspire to, it doesn't matter if it's Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Hinduism or anything at all as long as it is something. The fact that you all are taking the time to argue your points and feel the point is valid and not lost, in this you give hope to many.

Richmond-san

Yep im sure it does hehe

i can see them now reading this thread and thinking of ways to convert me

you'll never take me alive

mwahahahaaha

[CryingFreeman]

Dudes, if we all got together and got drunk, the conversation would be dynamite.

so true

but i think most of us would be lost on the Hisham Padishah Kensei debate cuz that is way way way over my head

[Anjin-san]

Two muslims and a buddhist walk into a bar... there's got to be a gag in there somewhere.

[Richmond-san]

Sniff...Snifff...I love you guys...(immense but heartfelt sarcasm)

Richmond-san

[Hisham]

Two muslims and a buddhist walk into a bar... there's got to be a gag in there somewhere.

Nice timing there lol

Hey CFreeman beware of my converting powers :vampire: *fades back into the shadows*