Seme

[eric]

Hello all,

We have been working extensively and closely on seme since the beginning of the year and I wondered what everyone had to say about it. Not just seme with shinai, but the entire attitude of seme. My thoughts on this stem from the basic priniciple that true kendo comes from seme and men. The rest rises about of your ability, or lack of ability, to develop and respond to each. I am interested in how others train their seme as well. This term can be translated a multitude of ways and it is this that I am interested in. How do you strengthen your seme? Is this something that can be taught or only developed individually? I strongly believe that rei also plays a role in seme and if you have false rei it shows in your seme. Just some random thoughts for discussion on a thursday. Cheers!

-Eric

[taganahan]

if you do a simple search, you'll find out that this topic was covered several times and is and was overkilled. no offense


~taganahan

[#2 mouse]

Yes, you can be taught elements of it. However, you must adopt and develop your own. You are trying to intimidate your opponent without ever having to make a move or do anything other than be there in the space. You should "occupy" the space arround you. The intent is to break your opponents spirit before you ever strike.

[eric]

Sorry about the double post. The point was not to learn seme from this board, like other posters. Just to get a conversation going. Have a good day.

[Lazken]

Ive always thought about seme as "decision power", knowing before you strike you WILL hit, taking opportunity, and creating opportunity. See/make a gap, and strike it without a single doubt to slow you down, see it, know you'll hit it, then hit it :)

I think of seme as some sort of determination
Having no doubt, full confidence and the ability to make solid, good, strong decisions.

And that shows in your posture, you can radiate seme, In my vision, it blends in a little with Zanshin, just be there and radiate fear onto your opponents, breaking their spirit just by "glowing".

[Timeline]

"breaking their spirit just by "glowing".", nice description Lazken.

I think Kendo Kata is important in developing seme. With the physical movements being set into a memorised routine, the Kendoka can concentrate on developing seme and zan-shin. So that the pressure builds between Uchi-dachi and Shi-dachi to give purpose to the physical movements in each form.

[darklord]

I prefer to do seme using self confidence. Just push your confidence to your opponents, be calm and patience, and let your opponents start losing their confidence and spirit. When they do, and usually they will ( for younger or lower ranks opponents usually ), then they will start making openings so that you can push deeper and even hit and take a point from that opening.
I prefer not to make faint movement, just prefer to do basic chudan kamae for the seme.

[grasshopper_r2]

practice, patience, focus, the complete combination of technique with your spirit, confidence, zanshin. Your seme will develope within you, you will not have to develope your seme.

[Lazken]

I practise zanshin constanly, when walking around alone in town, I try and get a sense of the people around, try and notice where everyone is en what they are doing while still looking ahead, try and get my awareness to a higher level, noticing more around you etc ...

[senjlee]

Hello, everyone.
I'm new, and very happy to find this forum.
Yup, I believe that every kendoka would agree that the topic of this thread never cease to be valuable to think over and also difficult.
Following is just my very subjective opinion.
I think the difficulty partly resides on the many physical and metaphysical forms which seme can take in its existence, which everybody agrees.
There must be horizontally various ways to practice seme in many vertically different levels.
Personally, I'm focusing on mushin and zanshin in my practice.
Both concepts are related with being spontaneous, which is a mental state most kendoka want to achieve. And being spontaneous is a strong seme by itself.
The question is how to cultivate these mind sets.
In a match, to make a scoring hit, there should be zanshin after hit.
It looks like there are several dogmatic zanshin gestures, we practice.
Those gestures are supposed to speak a loud the mind state (zanshin).
But I wonder practicing those gestures would really cultivate zanshin itself.
It's just a matter of sequence: "gesture -> zanshin" or "zanshin-> gesture".
For me, Kakari-geiki is the excercise of choice for cultivating these mind sets.
Those kakari-geiki lovers, I guess, would agree with me sort of.

[senjlee]

In kakara-geiko, one keeps attacking with mushin as long as the zanshin remains.

[Charlie]

Good points. What do you guys think, is there a physical as well as mental aspect of seme?

[Gerald Audette]

Good points. What do you guys think, is there a physical as well as mental aspect of seme?
Yeah, I'd say so. It comes to center imho. If you can't hold center, you can't focus through your opponent. And there's the commitment to the strike. If you are going to attack, your pressure needs to be there - you can't relax...again a physical aspect in addition to the mental.

Just a few random thoughts and my $0.02. :)

[Charlie]

I wonder sometimes if seme, while fundamental, is a little advanced in that you really don't get a firmer grasp of it until you have a better idea of maai, which is constantly shifting. Once you get a bit more used to maai, you can concentrate on shiai.

Maai is tricky, especially if you get someone attacking you from different maai. I myself feel I have only really begun to grasp seme after my six-and-a-half years of practice.

[enkorat]

Hi Charlie,

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and discussing it with some mutual acquantances, so that if I need to explain "seme" from the standpoint of a beginner they will have a better understanding of whats going on.

When over on our side of town we started to have the beginner's do kakari-geiko for the first time I found myself yelling at them as a motodachi, as I had been taught. Things like "don't pause, go" , "don't think" and "don't hesitate". It was one of the first times that they as a group had to do kakari-geiko, and I noticed in their body language that they had the extra fire under their behind, as it were.

It has been my understanding that "seme" is to either encroach or to pressure, and that there are many forms of applying pressure. Although much of "seme" is a physical technique of manipulating the maai and shinai, one can also apply pressure through things like one's "kiai" or yelling for that matter.

As the beginners did not have bogu and I could not realistically apply "seme" with a shinai, I chose to use my voice to apply pressure so that they would start developing the strength to resist my pressure, in effect to start developing the idea of "maai".

I felt thought I have to take the time to explain things after practice, as since we are a university club in a largely western setting such things could easily be interpreted as "intimidation" or "bullying" as opposed to a deliberate tool for training. Its also a strong concern for me as the students become senior that they do not pass along a misinterpreted idea of "seme" and indeed try to bully or intimidate the beginners during practice.

I suppose my contribution to the discussion is that if "seme" can have different forms, it is possible to introduce such concepts as "maai" and "seme" earlier.

I do not know if this view is entirely accurate or how such concepts would be taught, but I thought I might float it out there as an idea...

[tantadi]

I wonder sometimes if seme, while fundamental, is a little advanced in that you really don't get a firmer grasp of it until you have a better idea of maai, which is constantly shifting. Once you get a bit more used to maai, you can concentrate on shiai.
.

Exactly. The physical seme with me stepping in to one step cutting distance, often lead to a (often randomly since I try to maintain center) "whack attack" from the opponent. Since I'm then standing quite close (I'm short) I feel cramped with litlle room to respond. If I speed up the seme-->attack, I`m told I`m rushing. But I don`t feel that the one-step-attack-distance is a very good place to stay for a long time.

So I don't have a grasp on the maai yet.

[enkorat]

... But I don`t feel that the one-step-attack-distance is a very good place to stay for a long time.

So I don't have a grasp on the maai yet...

Maintaining proper maai has also been one of my challenges, and three different sensei have independently remarked on this recently for me.

The other day one of my sensei was working with me during hikitate jigeiko and remarked that I was staying too close in chikama or issoku-itto for too long, this after chuckling and having been hitting me number of times and saying "isn't this a dangerous place to be?" (in japanese it was more of a rhetorical question.)

Another sensei during hikitate jigeiko a few weeks later remarked that I was also either in chikama or issoku-itto too long, and that for my upcoming ikkyu shinsa I should be more concious of my maai. He gave me some advice in that for my level, I should try to maintain my maai in toma, and that the instant either I or my opponent entered into issoku-itto range that I should not hesitate and go for a hit. If I found myself in chikama I should either close to tsubazeri-ai and withdraw with a strong kamae, or maintain a strong kamae if my opponent tried to execute a hikiwaza, and chase after them maintaining issoku-itto range and hit them using the idea of "go-no-sen".

This along with the focus on 'seme' during generalized instruction has been very instructive, though its taken a while to start to understand what seme means in the context of maintaining maai, and what 'maintaining maai' realistically means. I've been watching many matches after this, especially during the recent Cleveland Tournament and its like I've never really noticed the importance of a dynamically shifting maai and seme.

Kinda like a "wow I've never noticed this before" followed by a "crap this is really hard".

So yes, I don't maintain maai very well either and its something I'm actively trying to develop, along with seme....

[tantadi]

Seems like your sensei are more in line with my opinions...;-)...one of the difficult things with maai is that I get different advice from whoever instructs. I'll try the tsubazerai advice.

Another thing I'm working on which relates to manipulating distance is going from having a relaxed kamae with my left hand not far from the abdomen to more or less totally outstretched when cutting men/kote. And coordinate this with seme --> attack.

[senjlee]

Looks like the subject is a little bit shifted....But maai is also closely related with seme.
About one's issok-itto-no-maai: There is a distance where one should make an instant attack, even when it's obvious that the opponent would execute an oji-waza, just to make one's kendo on the right track of improvement. Staying at that distance without doing anything is a habit rather to be avoided.
Regarding this issue, I think it's beneficial to watch Nishigawa sensei's match.
In a too much simplified language, he approaches the opponent from far distance (of course with some visibly strong intention of attack), which smoothly is connected with execution either to kote or men at a certain distance without pause. I heard that his nick name is "textbook kendo".
Though I'm a little bit confused about his career, he holds 2,3 time all japan kendo championship with the last one when he was 39 years old (1982?).
I was once commented by my sensei that my issoku-itto-no-maai gets shorter and shorter by putting too much emphasis on seme at the cost of maai.

[ben]

We practiced seme "waza" last week and it clarified my thoughts about the physical manifestations and uses of seme. In this instance seme is meant in terms of "feints", as in: make a feint for kote and follow up with men. So in this sense seme is a kind of trick, to lure your opponent into thinking you will do something other than what you intend. You can do this with physical movement of the kensen, the direction of your gaze, or even attempting the same attack several times unsuccessfully, and so 'conditioning' your opponent. This is an aspect of seme that doesn't often get discussed, yet it is probably the best way in to understanding seme for kyu grade kendoka. It is also very effective in shiai.

Both the physical and mental forms of seme come down to, IMHO, two basic principles: your opponent must feel that a) you are not intimidated by his/her threat, and b) you are capable of instantaneously backing up your own threat with effective action.

The other thing I've learned but struggle to maintain in my own kendo 100% of the time, is the fact that strong seme closes down suki (weaknesses, openings), while at the same time creating suki in your opponent. IOW attack is the best form of defence.

Such a doozy of a topic. I hate discussing it for some reason, I think because it makes me feel I still have so much to learn about it. But it's always fruitful to do so. Nice thread guys.

b

[Neil Gendzwill]

Just to give you guys a reference point, the shinsa judges aren't really looking to see real seme from candidates until yondan. So yes, please continue to step in for the attack and all that good stuff, but seme is a little broader than that. When you step in and then get hit, you didn't have seme - you just stepped in. Seme is very difficult.

[DCPan]

In this instance seme is meant in terms of "feints", as in: make a feint for kote and follow up with men. So in this sense seme is a kind of trick, to lure your opponent into thinking you will do something other than what you intend.

IMHO, it doesn't have to be a trick...depending on your conceptualization.

Oh...you already covered that...nevermind.

[Charlie]

Seme is very difficult.

Thanks, just drop a golden nugget in the convo and then disappear. :D

By the way, sorry, guys, I realize when I wrote: "Once you get a bit more used to maai, you can concentrate on shiai" I meant "concentrate on seme."

Great food for thought from all of you, and it is interesting that the discussion drifts also into discussion of maai. I have a lot of thought on this but nothing very definite. Like all of you, I am still in process thinking about all this.

Seme sort of seems to be like that old truism about obscenity, "I know it when I see it."

[tantadi]

Just to give you guys a reference point, the shinsa judges aren't really looking to see real seme from candidates until yondan. So yes, please continue to step in for the attack and all that good stuff, but seme is a little broader than that. When you step in and then get hit, you didn't have seme - you just stepped in. Seme is very difficult.

If you step in, don't have center, but provoke an attack that you can defend against, is that seme?

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you step in, don't have center, but provoke an attack that you can defend against, is that seme?
If that was your intent. If it's just a happy accident, then no.

[enkorat]

If you step in, don't have center, but provoke an attack that you can defend against, is that seme?

wouldn't stepping in without having some control over center be incredibly risky? Even with the intent of provoking an attack if the attack came while you were open wouldn't the defense come too late?

[tantadi]

If the attacker isn't especially fast, it can work...deflecting takes shorther time than a cut (in theory at least). If you know he is likely to come in with a big slow men cut or just loves kote, you have a plan.

[hyuna]

wouldn't stepping in without having some control over center be incredibly risky? Even with the intent of provoking an attack if the attack came while you were open wouldn't the defense come too late?
If you have strong control of center and step in, why should your opponent attack you? Too strong a center, and it is hard to provoke an attack.

On the other hand, if you have no control of center, why would you have to step in to provoke an attack? Having no control is a provocation in itself.

[tantadi]

That is something to think about..

[Charlie]

Personally, I've always wondered what exactly control of center means.

Does it mean that you have the absolute center point? Therefore, your opponent's kensen is just a hair off, since it is up against your kensen. Does this then mean that their attacks will miss while yours while hit?

Sometimes I feel I have control/don't have control of center but it's hard to put into words.

[tantadi]

My opinions about center as a beginner: It is not a point. It is more like a open line between you and your opponent. I often see it when I do keiko with other beginners. The instructors on the other hand, might move the tip of their kensen, and try to give an false impression of giving up center or maybe trying to hypnotize you with moving it..;-) ....Even if you have center and attack, you can still miss or get scored upon..if you are slow, they are fast, they do debana or something.

[hyuna]

Personally, I've always wondered what exactly control of center means.

Does it mean that you have the absolute center point?

I can describe how I conceptualize what the center is and what control of the center means to me.

I think the easiest way to see it is during ai-men, when practicing men (or kote) kiriotoshi men, or during kata #4. There is a space that is shared by you and your opponent. If either of you go for a straight men, that space has to be traversed. That space is what I think of as "center." I think of "control" of that space as having two basic qualities: (1) the ability for you to move freely in that space and (2) the ability to prevent your opponent's ability to move in that space. If you can move freely, you can hit. If you can prevent your opponent from traversing the space, he cannot hit you. I think the shared quality of the space is demonstrated by ai-men such as in kata #4, and control over it is demonstrated most clearly with men kiriotoshi men.

I think those two qualities can be combined in different timeframes. That is, if you using "pulling seme," you might temporarily give up control of center to provoke an attack. After your opponent does their furikaburi they have given up control of the center, so you seize that control, block the downward cut (quality #2), which clears the path for you to cut (quality #1).

I think this points out two things that address your question more directly. First of all, I do not think of the center as a single static place. If someone steps to the side, the center has moved. Similarly, if someone does katsugi waza or hiki men, their shinai path is not shared with your straight men. So the center is not just one point, it is more of a space. So the center is dynamic. Also, controlling the center is not the same as simply occupying the center, as the ooji-waza example demonstrates. So just because your opponent's kensen is offcenter now does not mean it will not become centered in a moment. If you can control the center through the cut, however, your opponent will miss. Nuki-waza is defense by moving the center away from your opponent's cut, instead of actively impeding it.

In terms of kamae, I find if I "take center" by tightening my left fist, my shinai not only becomes more centered, throwing my opponent's shinai off by a hair, it also rides over my opponent's shinai. That constrains its upward motion, interfering with their furikaburi and freeing up my furikaburi. If I "take center" by dropping my kensen down a little and centering it, the opposite occurs. I am momentarilly suppressed and must do something like osae or harai to take center before I can attack.

One final note: although I have described the physical characteristics of what I think of as "control of center," I do not think of it as only a physical phenomenon. In my ooji-waza example, I said "temporarily give up center" but that is a bit of a lie. In that situation you do not really give up center; you give your opponent the false impression that they have control of center are are able to attack. You can give up the physical center while taking control of the psychological center--instead of trying to control the movement of your opponent's shinai, you try to control the "movement of your opponent's mind"; that is, you control their intention and behavior. By showing your opponent an open kote, you are trying to direct their intention towards your kote. I think there is a "psychological center" of readiness, of kyo and jitsu, perhaps, that exists that can be seen analogously to the physical description.

Fundamentally, I think of seme as efforts to control these two concepts of center.

But, my seme is not that strong, so it would not surprise me if I am totally wrong (about either seme or center or both).......

[Charlie]

My take is similar to yours, Arthur, but may I also note that "controlling the center" also involves timing.

Let me try to explain by describing a simple situation. We both take chudan and come to issoku-ito-no-maai, one step maai. We fight for center, our kensen push against and around each other trying to control the space. At some point, most likely very soon, one or both of us will cut. Let's say we both cut men. If mine strikes and your's is off center and brushed aside by the downward motion of my strike, then I had center, whether I knew it or not. Thing is, I think that during the "battle for center," "control" of it may have shifted back and forth between us, but I was lucky or skilled enough to have atce dta the right moment.

This assumes equal skill level. I also know when my center is being dominated by a superior fighter or when I am dominating a kohai. What do you think?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Interesting post, Arthur. But I still think the centre is the centre, and it is the physical centre between the two players. It certainly moves around as you move around. You can take the centre by moving the centre. Kata #2 is a good example of that. But katsugi-waza as you gave is a bad example because in that case you are giving up centre in an attempt to surprise your opponent. If your opponent has a strong centre, he'll just come up the middle on your katsugi-waza and hit the open kote or men you've given him. While I believe as you do that seme has a part in taking centre, I would hesitate to blend the two concepts together too much.

[kuzu70]

I would tend to agree with Neil. In my limited kendo experience, I have noticed that one does not necessarily have to control the center to have seme. For example, dropping your kensen and stepping in or raising you kensen and stepping in is an effective way to seme and pressure your opponent without necessarily controlling the center.


I suppose controlling the center becomes more important as you fight stronger opponents who have strong kamae and will not break down, no matter what you do.

[hyuna]

But katsugi-waza as you gave is a bad example because in that case you are giving up centre in an attempt to surprise your opponent. If your opponent has a strong centre, he'll just come up the middle on your katsugi-waza and hit the open kote or men you've given him. While I believe as you do that seme has a part in taking centre, I would hesitate to blend the two concepts together too much.
I see what you are saying about katsugi-waza not being so much as moving the center as giving it up. Thank you for the correction.

I tried to address the general idea of giving up the physical center for surprise value in the idea of a "psychological center." I think the basic point I am going for is that your opponent will come up the middle of your katsugi-waza as long as they are unsurprised and it has nothing to do with their control of the physical center -- the shinai could be sideways and as long as they are fast enough, they could respond to the katsugi-waza. Moreover, if your opponent strengthens their kamae when surprised (not that I know anyone who does that), then giving up center to surprise your opponent would be counterproductive. So, I still see it as a way to try to weaken your opponent's center -- it is simply done in an indirect way. Hypermodern chess openings come to mind as an easy example of this idea.

I think the ideas of seme and center blend together in my head right now because I am not at a point that I can separate them in practice. The limited degree of seme that I can sense and apply now all revolve around trying to strengthen or deliberately release control over center. I would not be surprised if the two concepts separate in my mind as my ability increases. But, as I am now, the two seem to be different aspects of the same thing (albeit applicable within different modalities).


Thing is, I think that during the "battle for center," "control" of it may have shifted back and forth between us, but I was lucky or skilled enough to have [acted at] the right moment.
I agree with you on all points. I find I often notice a weakness in my opponent's control over the center only well after the opportunity is past. So it is not unusual that I try to use seme to make an opening, then only recognize the opening that resulted from the seme after my opponent recovers. Or, try to use seme to make an opening, think I succeeded, then find out that I was wrong. It can be kind of depressing, but I trust that it will get better over time...

[DCPan]

I see center as an interaction of three components.

1. the shortest distance between you and your opponent.

2. The plane that bisects you.

3. The plane that bisects the opponent.

So, my object in keiko is to use #2 to occupy #1 while not allowing #3 to occuply #1.

FWIW.

[Charlie]

Okay, David, I'm gonna have to think about that for a bit.

And lol at Arthur figuring out what I meant by my typo, "atce dta."

[Nanbanjin]

From Wikipedia:



In anime and manga, especially shounen-ai, yaoi and hentai, seme is a general term for a partner in a relationship who is or is intended to be predominantly butch, a top, and/or a dominant. The equivalent for bottom is uke.

Some fans dislike the term as portraying a sexist notion of relationships - its conflation of gender role with sex preferences and the notion that a relationship always contains one uke and one seme - and its prevalence in some rape fantasy doujinshi.

[Charlie]

Hahaha! Oh, GREAT!

[Nanbanjin]

BTW, that really is what it says in Wikipedia's entry for "Seme".

[666monster]

Hm... quite interesting...
I have a question...
I am just getting my shoudan grade...
Now, I compete in DAN grade tournament....
I met with an opponent that used a semi gedan with the tip faces right downward
My opponent is a veteran that grades nidan but (my sensei said if he didn`t get lazy to take on grading.... He might be a yondan)....
I could feel his pressure.... But how could I applied my seme...
I too just realized that I never learned anything about seme....
I always wait for the opportunity when the opponent attack....
But because of the post up until now, I think I could grasp the meaning....
I`ll try that, but when I fought against that opponent....
Only feint that can affect him.... So, how can I sharpen my seme...
The physical and mental seme, so that I can penetrate his invincible center?

[ben]

Oh gedan just makes me angry. I'd uchiotoshi the damn shinai out of his hand and cut him in half. Do that a few times, then when he gets wise, uchiotoshi followed by do when he reacts upwards. Then a tsuki festival. HTH. b

[666monster]

What is uchiotoshi??? I will try asking it to my sensei... But I am now currently in vacation...
Can you explain uchiotoshi... If u`r kind enough, please tell me about physical and mental seme that I could do to get rid of his invincible center....
But, my opponent myself is a great analyzer... Said to be the strongest kendoka in my country... (kendo isn`t so advanced enough in my place)...
I myself forced to train in the dojo at my vacation place, cause it didn`t have sensei....

[ghostdancer]

try this article from the BKA http://kendo.org.uk/articles/about-the-meaning-of-seme-and-tame/

[666monster]

I have read it before... But can I, a lower grade, seme a higher grade with a strange kamae like him?
How? From the way I try... It seems I can only get doubt to him when I used feint....
Can I actually used harai or otoshi with gedan???

[Neil Gendzwill]

The answer is that your kendo probably isn't sufficiently developed to apply much seme at all, especially against higher ranked people. So just work on your technique for now, advanced concepts will come in time. If he is really low, then you have a time advantage, so just hit his men - he won't be able to raise his shinai in time to defend if your speeds are similar. If that doesn't work, uchiotoshi as Ben suggested - that means just strike his shinai straight down from above, then follow on with men. Use similar footwork to kote-men.

One thing to avoid against that sort of kamae is kote - it looks inviting, but it's a trap.

[666monster]

Thank you, Neil for your advice. I realized I am noy advanced enough. But this was a shiai so I have to at least think about how to beat him.
Men is a no.... I have tried it, but when I did it. His center has gone back to chuudan kamae and made my throat got stabbed by the shinai. Otoshi? Oh, like harai? But his kamae was so low and his kensen point at the right to the ground. Making his shinai was too low and already not in center. I too when training often have trouble to apply seme because I am tall. All my sparring partner is shorter than me. So I am used to get too close to attack my opponent. My question is.... How can I apply seme before my opponent get into his reach? Should I just attack when he got in my reach? My instructor said that when I got to fight smaller opponent, my attack reach is when my shinai tip touch my opponent shinai tips. How can I apply seme from there? I am having a very difficulty with this cause majority of my spar partner was that short

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think for you the answer is more keiko, no magic solution. If he is stopping your men with tsuki from gedan then either your attack is not strong/fast enough or you are telegraphing your intentions. Probably some of both at your level.

As far as your attacking distances - use your time when practicing basics to figure out what that is. Try launching men from a variety of distances and understand where your hitting range (we say uchi-ma) is.

[FastKendo]

@ 666monster, uchiotoshi is like hitting/parrying the opponent's shinai in order to make his kensen lower and surprised him before hitting men (cmiiw)

[666monster]

Hm... I have gotten grasp of my maai.... But my reach when fighting against a smaler opponent was toma no maai....
So how can I apply seme from that distance... First I thought about trying to seme from attack... Just like what was written in the site that u gave me... But my understanding was that I become more agreesive to try to attack when I enter my reach... But everytime I do so, I got like 10% chance to hit and 90% chance to received counter....
How can you apply seme when shinai haven't touched my opponent shinai?
I can succed when I used feint or big cut.... But I wanted to avoid feint.... I wanted a concept of seme in this range....
I always got an advise that I never used my height advantage and that I have to already ready to attack when I am in toma no maai...
This is what I haven't figured out even now.... Cause I am in a vacation I can't meet sensei and asked about it and I have to train a kendo member in my dojo cause their sensei has left before no one got at least shodan... Or in a word understand basic completely...
If u are kind enough, how can I train my seme from toma when fighting a beginner?

Forget to say it.... Thank you all for your advice.....
I am getting difficulties to find my answer because I am in a vacation to my hometown...

[ender84567]

How can you apply seme when shinai haven't touched my opponent shinai?



The same way a jodan player does. As for seme with a beginner you are SOL there, as most beginners are impervious to seme, they rarely react in any predictable way as they arent able to feel it until they have been in bogu awhile.

[Dezza]

One thing to avoid against that sort of kamae is kote - it looks inviting, but it's a trap.

Sorry, I cant let that one go..

http://www.maximumawesome.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/m_its_a_trap.jpg

[Bokushingu]

I have read it before... But can I, a lower grade, seme a higher grade with a strange kamae like him?
How? From the way I try... It seems I can only get doubt to him when I used feint....
Can I actually used harai or otoshi with gedan???

well there's a reason why he enjoys staying Nidan and not moving to the SanDan/YonDan Division. He doesn't want to compete & experience; he just wants to win. Not sure if i can give you much advice, but i would not base my progress on fighting a guy like that. Just stick to improving your fundamentals.

I was taught that Toma is where you start seme-ashi. you could use that against this type of opponent.

Facts that you know: when you attack, he does mune tsuki; he reacts to your feints; he has been doing Kendo longer than you; he gives up center by doing a gedan like kamae.

If you feint and not go in, does he return to gedan/or tip lowered out of center? does he attack? Does he come in close? how do you react when he seme? how do you react when he steps in? can you tell when he is switching from defensive to offensive?

Perhaps practice Seme-ashi to Tsuki; and/or Seme-ashi to men. Practice moving your feet before your hands or relying more on clean fumikomi from good posture then arms. Reflect more on what you saw and felt during that match--you may begin to understand certain questions that you have. Keep practicing your fundamentals. His kendo is stagnant & if you keep working to improve your basics & you will overcome his shinai time. I don't want to say "experience" because i equate that as quality & time. He has more time doing kendo not more experience.

Oh i forgot: Seme is a growth thing. meaning you have to start at the low end. you can't develop non physical seme from toma like the NanaDans or HachiDans because you don't have the experience. For now, you have to just step in & attack....

[JSchmidt]

well there's a reason why he enjoys staying Nidan and not moving to the SanDan/YonDan Division.

Do you know the guy?

[666monster]

he reacted but do not flinch....
Though after that he can`t do mune tsuki because of the feint...

Seme ashi.... Never learned that....
I will try searching for it...

[Bokushingu]

For JSchmidt, no just going off information 666monster provided:
My opponent is a veteran that grades nidan but (my sensei said if he didn`t get lazy to take on grading.... He might be a yondan).... i was pretty much making an assumption based on my experience of competing against guys like that in both Kendo & Boxing. In boxing there were guys that stayed in the Novice division for years. In Kendo, in my region 4 years ago, there were a lot of Kyus that stayed in the kyu division for a crazy long time (should've been in the Dan Divisions).

For 666monster
he reacted but do not flinch....
Though after that he can`t do mune tsuki because of the feint... this may be your moment to score ippon, if you have proper form and footwork...think about how he reacted. think back what was open?


Seme ashi.... Never learned that....
I will try searching for it... Seme ashi is very basic footwork; it was taught to me as a kyu. Ask your Sensei or another Sensei how to do it. I was taught slide your front foot forward bring your back foot up immediately(not past your front foot) then strike Men, kote, etc...I was taught start from toma & the seme ashi should take you into distance to strike without any other movement & be ready to hit whatever opens. The tip of your shinai should be alive with strong intentions of killing. Pretty much this was taught to me from my first sempai who was from Japan(trained 30 years).

Using good form with kakarigeiko, Uchikomi Geiko & lots of Suriashi improves this fundamental.

[666monster]

Just realized we learned that (seme-ashi)...
I just don`t know it was called that...
Well, it was just a problem of language...
Cause every sensei that teached us was an employee in my country branch for Japanese firm... So, it is rare to see a sensei that can actually "communicate" to us....

Hm... Yes... I attack when he didn`t flinch.... But most of the times he attacked too...
I forgot to say that he is an analyze type of fighter... At the first jigeiko, he let me hit him so he could analyze me.... Than he now knew me.... Sigh, that was one thing that made me hard to beat it... BUt the point wasn`t there... but... How can I seme and realized that my seme was effective when he used that kamae..... If it was a chuudan or jodan... It was easy... But when it was gedan... I got no hint

[Bokushingu]

Did you have Follow-through and zanshin after your cut? Did you have Kikentai during your waza? You should ask your Sensei or a Sensei that was watching your match. I think if you had video of it, the Senseigata on this forum could further help you...It sounds like there are other issues other than Seme that is keeping you from acquiring Yuko datotsu from the Shimpan against this opponent.


How can I seme and realized that my seme was effective when he used that kamae..... If it was a chuudan or jodan... It was easy... But when it was gedan... I got no hint
you may be putting too much thought on just Seme. Just step in and hit. complete your waza with good spirit, follow-through and zanshin. make sure you have good posture & kikentai.

[666monster]

Hm... my sensei will come to my vacation place to train the dojo in that place.....
I will try to perform what you said and ask further advice...
Thank you all

[KiraCastle]

how long did it take for "you" to develop your seme? Was there a point in time where you really felt like "Oh, wow...I think I have found something that works for me"?

[Raffa]

how long did it take for "you" to develop your seme? Was there a point in time where you really felt like "Oh, wow...I think I have found something that works for me"?

For your first question, the answer seems to be "a life". A kenshi seme should be always in developing.
Personally, I felt many "Oh, wow...I think I have found something that works for me" points in this few years of kendo.
My way to apply seme is in constant evolution, is a sequence of steps (it doesn't work in a linear way), some smaller some bigger.
For example only a few months ago my seme comprehension was very different from the actual.
So, from my limited experience I can point out a few details about it, the first is that there are different levels of seme, and you must pass throught all the basic ones to reach the most advanced. The second is that you can understand a seme step only if you are ready for it, no way to leap above a step. To reach a step you basically need 2 things, a right amount of training and a guidance from someone that already know the step you are trying for.

[JByrd]

Things started to snap into place for me around 3 dan. That's the point where it became apparent to me that my success depended hugely on what I did, or did not do, just as I began to initiate my attack. By then I had a good enough grasp of the basics to trace my problems back to my kamae, my footwork, my shinai control. In other words, suburi, suburi, suburi. My suburi became more productive from that point on because I had developed a clear idea of the effect I was trying to achieve.

[hugo]

"Understanding seme" is such a strong phrase...

I'm only 3-Dan, but I can speak to what HAS happened to me. It wasn't really until a bit before I passed 2-Dan that I could really start to "see" seme when I watched others' matches, and hasn't really been until recently that I've started to see just how much (as JByrd has said) suburi training is connected...or to really grasp that EVERYTHING is connected in the same way.

[Kenzan]

Seme?
Hell, I just whack the little buggers with a Tennis racket and that seems to do the trick for me.

[hugo]

how long did it take for "you" to develop your seme? Was there a point in time where you really felt like "Oh, wow...I think I have found something that works for me"?

And just to add a bit more to the discussion, that moment of "oh, wow, I've figured it out" usually only lasts until someone better than you makes you realize that whatever you were doing wasn't working as well as you thought it did.

Development in seme is definitely connected to the idea of learning through losing.