In Defence of the Disarmed

[anogaijin]

Hello,
This is my first post. Hope to hear some good comments or in the worst case merely to be ignored. Anyway here it is...

... as you feel the shinai torn from your grasp and go spinning across the dojo (hopefully not skewering anyone in the process) you have but a split second before your sempai strikes a resounding men what do you do?:confused:

1. Stand there like a deer in headlights.:ko:
2. Stand there and take it like a man.:mad:
3. Cower. :scared:
4. RUN AWAY!!!!!:eek:
5. Make an acrobatic dive for the shinai, execute a stunning forward roll, and come up in a beautiful chudannokamae(or at least try to).:bandit:
6. Rush in and grab your opponent around the middle and stand there until you think he'll allow you to go pick it up and continue.:confused2
7. Rush in, grab your opponent's keikogi, perform an uchimata to get him down on the ground, then rip his men off, there-by announcing to the world that in a "real fight" you would have just won.:evil:

I have seen all of them. Yes, including #7.

I saw it about six years ago. In defence of his action player claimed that in the "old days" that was acceptable.

I have two questions
1. Has anyone else seen this happen?
2. What do you do when you get disarmed?

Answer#1:For my part I have never seen it again and think it is one of the most disgusting examples of bad sportsmanship I have ever seen.
Answer #2: I generally perform an amazing #1.

Thanks.

[ben]

Hi anogaijin, welcome to KWF.
1) I've seen this happen. Yes, I've also heard that this was allowed in pre-war kendo. EVeryone back then had some kaden jujutsu waza up their sleeves, apparently.
2) I usually make a pointless and instinctive grab for my opponent's shinai as it comes down, not at all in the fashion of Yagyu Munenori's famous muto waza.
;)
b

[JSchmidt]

In ji-geiko, I just take it like a man :).
In shiai, I've yet to try it, but they're usually quick to call 'hajime' when people drop their shinais.

Jakob

[aru-ma]

Originally posted by ben
2) I usually make a pointless and instinctive grab for my opponent's shinai as it comes down, not at all in the fashion of Yagyu Munenori's famous muto waza.
;)
b

:D never seen #1 but for #2 I try to dodge any cut coming until the shimpan gives me the hansoku, in jigeiko however I probably just stand like a stone and get cut :)

[munenmuso]

The last disarmed shinai I saw was on the 50th AJKchamps. He just raised both his hands and moved forward but his opponent moved backward as an act of chivalry(?) and never attack his opponent despite the obvious advantage.

Well for me, I'll just do a "butterfly return" if he hits me with men without my shinai. That is catching his shinai between my palms inches before it hits my forehead and throw him out of orbit.:D

[Steve]

I've heard that the "prefered" action is to run in close to your opponent.

[gill]

Run in and grab your opponent - you don't have to knock them to the floor and take their men off - although I have seen this done several times (actually always involving the same person....hmmmmm)

By grabbing them you have closed the distance - so they cannot cut you, then either the bout will be stopped - or you can mutually agree to stop if there are no referees. If they don't agree to stop then you have cause to knock them to the floor and rip their men off :D

Gill

[iwatekenshi]

Anogaijin welcome to the show.
To answer question number one. No I've never seen that happen....WAIT! Hold on I have. SHS intense practice sessions but the teacher was wanting them to do it. He always had the upper hand though. It was done sportmanlike however. The balance between fun and seriousness was really controlled well by the teacher.
Your answer to question two would be, "Oh... I dropped my shinai I must have done something wrong, take whatever comes and then make sure that it won't happen again and apologize. Here's a quick story though. Once I got makiwazed out and but amazingly my shinai came back down into my hands, caught it and then proceeded with a kote men and won our ipponshobu keiko. We just laughed. :)

[James]

I would agree with Steve,

In the Japanese Champs Nabeyama was disarmed by (the tiny) Harada, Nabeyama moved forward to close the distance with one hand held up in front of him.

Harada, backed away in chudan (actually out of the area) maintaining distance with Nabeyama, ie not attacking but also not allowing the unarmed Nabeyama to close with him until Yame was called. Not sure if that was exactly 'chivalry' more like keeping alert.

j

[KATSUJIN]

if i were to lose the shinai, i would go and grab my opponent around the do. If my opponent lost his shinai, i would just step back.

[GMason]

Easy, run in grab him perform O-Goshi on him. Once on the floor grab his Do at the bottom and pull it up on to the throat and choke him out :D :D :D :D :D

I have seen a couple of fences turn into a Jodo/wrestling. When a high ranking Sensei lost his shinai. I think that should actually read deliberatly dropped his shinai.

He then ran in shouting in Japanese and started wrestling with his student, I was told later that he was shouting "come on then" in Japanese (The sensei was quite a high ranked Judoka so it was fun to watch).

Everyone in the Dojo stopped and started shouting to the student. It was really fun to watch and all done in good humor and sportsmanship.

But personally I would just take it like a man (But having said that I've never lost my Shinai........................Yet :eek: :eek: :eek: )

[Jerry Wellbrock]

If your opponent has been disarmed... strike immediately before yame is called to score ippon-ari, if you are disarmed close the distance to avoid the strike, you may be called for loosing your shinai or recieve hansoku but this is better than letting your opponent score ippon-ari! Control your own destiny.:old_man:

[Paburo]

in the last taikai i went to, i saw this beast guy push a smaller guy, and then once fallen and disarmed the opponent, he went for a brutal men uchi. the poor smaller guy was in the floor helpless, while the beast triggered several mens on him. that seemed so dishonourable.

a few combats before i had fought with the same smaller guy, and i sent him flying with a strong tai atari. i didn't go ahead and try to bash him again while on the floor... he had lost his shinai too. i just waited till he got up again and in kamae to strike again.

if i win a tournament or match, i want to do it out of skill, reflexes and speed. not out of brute force.

[hobbit]

If I can, rush in, grab them close ( pinning their arms), but making sure you don't stand with your legs alongside theirs, thus preventing the surruptitious knee in the groin being delivered.

[Kendoka]

Kendo is The Way of The Sword.

If you lose or drop your (sword) Shinai in keiko, take it gracefully, bow slightly and wait for the perfect men from your opponent who was stronger than you in that instant.

In shiai, any of the above suggestions until the shinpan stops the shiai and then gives you a hansoku.

Get it ? Drop your (sword) shinai - you lose !!

[Marine_Boy]

This has never occured to me yet, least a long wait.

But hopefully, I'd try and put my aikido / taijutsu techniques into practice, move in close, atemi followed by dropping my opponent into the ground!

But hey, it's all theoretical!!!:D

[Aaron]

I would just try to take it like a man I guess.

I have been disarmed at practice once, and I got smacked in the head for picking up my shinai incorrectly. The younger kids get it alot harder when they drop their shinai. In my first week a JHS student dropped his shinai, so his sensei kicked it across the dojo. Every time the kid went for his shinai sensei would kick it again. This went on for about five or six kicks across the dojo, and eneded in a pretty brutal battering.

[qpuppy]

happen to me once in 1 saw 4 & 6 to someone else.. .hahhah..

1 is first time happen to me... when i was jeikeiko with my brother, and we both went for men, but both of us miss each other.. but then he lifted his arms up again and somehow was able to hook on to my shinai and yeah.. i was watching all the way seeing the shinai leaving my hands and into the air but i had no idea where my shinai went. Next thing i know is a light tap on my men and saw my brother laughing and my senpais too :P .... i was so shocked i didnt know what to do.. actually i was just purely shocked and froze...

number 4 was in the States championship... It was the battle between my sensei and my senpai... is was a great match... everything was so intense.... be somehow my senpai accidently drop his shinai.... since he was close to my sensei... he jsut ran up and hugged him.. everyone watching had a great laugh... The result of the comp is my senpai won.. HAHAH... :D

number 6 is during and friendly shiai game. It was the same senpan vs another kendoka doing jodan... The funny thing about this was.. my senpai was able to go for a single handed tsuki.. he was able to hit the target.. the flags went up.. but somehow the shinai slipped out of his hand... and all the flags went down and were crossed.. both kendokas looked at the dropped shinai and then at both each other... then all of a sudden my senpan ran awy soooo fast.. hehehe.... very very funny.. everyone in the dojo was laughing... even the shinpans were laughing.... :D

cheers

[KhawMengLee]

Heh, similar thing was done on me dude. It was my 2nd training back in Malaysia and one of the seniors(sempai) asked me to jigeiko and as soon as we started he was going all out on me(I think it was the whole rag on the new guy thing).

I was doing my best to attack and suddenly he attempts a one handed tsuki...(note:up till this point I had never been tsukied before)heh, I stood my ground his shinai hit tsuki then jarred out of his hands and he just stood there going "Huh?"...it was even better when I gave him a nice men cut for his trouble. After that his pace was a little more toned down.

hmmnn...I've also seen 1 where my sempai was fighting my sensei and he recieved a attempted kote cut on top of his shinai and it all came crashing down. You could see his hands drop and it looked like he was saying, "Awww....fuuuuck!" as Sensei continued with a solid men cut.

My friend told me that the police in Japan still do 7 if they loose their shinai...scary...

[sminki]

I think munenmuso and others' recount of AJKC brings us to an interesting side topic. I have read that in the past, it had been considered by the AJKF whether dropping shinai should in fact be an ippon as opposed to a hansoku. When they asked a high ranking (9 dan or 10 dan) sensei, his answer was that it was "bushi no jibi" or "warrior's mercy" which meant that it was in good budo spirit of the oppoenent to not strike while the sword had been dropped.

Anyway, despite the fact that it may be in good budo spirit not to strike, some people still take it too far. One of the worst example I've seen was in Chicago during which a guy was in a team match against a small asian girl. He pushed her so hard that she fell and dropped the shinai. He stood over her assuming a jodan no kamae. I thought that was rather in poor spirits.

[munenmuso]

Sminki dude,

Is there such a thing as if you drop your shinai and your opponent has the chance for hansoku, can you retrieve back your fallen shinai and continously resume the match immediatly right after assuming your kamae?

[KhawMengLee]

It's happen before...I think it was the national champs in Canberra(australia) and I heard that in the finals, one finalist dropped his shinai or fell down or both and the other person didn't go for the hit but started back to the starting square. The gu down picked up his shinai and seeing the shinpans had not called yame walked up and clucked a men as the other guy turned back around.

I think the guy that got it is on this forum...I mentioned this ages ago in an earlier post and the actual guy replied...wait I'll go look for it.

MENG

[KhawMengLee]

Ah, here it is:


http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98&highlight=canberra

oh, shit...it was BEN...eep.

MENG

[sminki]

I think that's only chanbara. In kendo, I believe that you get an automatic hansoku for dropping a shinai once it hits the ground. I've heard that "juggling" the shinai is not a hansoku though.

[Tato]

Yes, unless your oponent has time to score an Ippon, in this case it's not hansoku, but ippon.

That's why embracing the opponent seems a good tactic, better to recive "only" hansoku

Rei

[Danny Boy]

Here at Taiseidokai I have witnessed all 7 of the above lol :P.
And i was told by my sensei that once you loose your shinai then you are to continue the fight, whatever it takes, grab the shinai, lunge for the opponent, but not run away or stand there like cattle and wait to be hit.

[qpuppy]

HAHAHA.. hey meng.. that shiai match was between my sensei and sempai.. hhehehe...

[kendomushi]

If my sensei disarms one of us, the best thing is to just take the hit and be done. Several people have tried to go for their shinai which has resulted in sensei attacking them over and over, kicking the shinai away and driving the hapless student to surrender. I am about 3 times the bulk and weight of my sensei so I have a habit of trying to grab him round the waist, inverting him and then putting him down and running away.
All done in good fun of course. :)

[Sinta]

7. Rush in, grab your opponent's keikogi, perform an uchimata to get him down on the ground, then rip his men off, there-by announcing to the world that in a "real fight" you would have just won.

Because it sounds like a challenge... bwahahahahahahaha...*behaves*

[Charlie]

Sinta is correct, except it needn't be uchimata. For example, I would go osoto gari or ouchi gari. :D

[Chusan]

If it happens to me, I try to get back my shinai when still swirling around (usually without success, but it`s worth a try, and IF it works, it makes a great impression :bandit:
If I deliver that to an opponent, I usually stop the action. Hey, it`s a sport, no deadly duel... :)