If you don't like your country?

[Musha]

Blame some country that invaded you over fifty years ago and helps your country by making investments :D.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4432535.stm

Never thought I'd be posting here in the flames section but in Japan the news has been filled with these protests and riots in China over Japan not apologising for the second world war.

When I first heard about China and Japan my mother said "You musn't ever confuse a Japanese with a Chinese!". It's like an English guy beeing called German or French or some thing.

Its one thing China saying they don't really like Japan but saying its right not to like Japanese because "it's being petriotic duty" and then of all things pelting my favoret junk food resutorant YOSHINOYA, its got past a joke :smoker:.

http://www.tanizawafoods.co.jp/yosinoya.jpg

[Zaphiel]

hi musha
I'm german and you know.....it's okay when we apologise all the time for what my country did 50 years ago...but somehow I'm starting to wonder why I should apologise for something when i haven't even been planed by my parents nor were they by their parents.....

And i'm with you when you say it's not right when they call it a "petriotic duty"....as for your fast food restorant...I'm really sorry:D

[Akai Bushi]

A possiblity is that the Chinese government wishes to keep the hatred against Japan going among their citizens. If you're angry at someone outside of the country then it takes the spot-light off of how badly your own government is.

And when they say that Japan has never apologized that is completely wrong the diet and Prime Minister Koizumi have both apologized. Japan also gives alot of money to China every year. I mean if China hates Japan so much why not stop giving them money. China is a big boy again 6th largest economy in the world. Huge military. China doesn't need Japanese money. And most of the people who would even remember the war are dead or dieing. Why does someone who has no memories of a war that happened 30-40 years before they were even born have so much anger pent up? Just let things go. No since in hateing people for the next two centuries.
(And no one get me wrong about what happened in WWII was wrong, but no one is innocent in war. Almost every country is guilty of something in the past. Just some worse than others. But, again let it go don't damn someone for what their anestors did.)

[KenShi_JoB]

I agree that it's crazy, but as in bakumatsu, outside lord still hate tokugawa for the events 250 year ago. I think this is the way of the world, conflict.

[crabbi]

...My understanding is that this all erupted over the publication of a new history book for Japanese schools that makes light of a massacre of Chinese people in Manchuria...

...and it's not just China... Korea too... Check out : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4411771.stm

This is so common... in all countries... we tell our children what we want them to believe and then they have to discover the truth for themselves when they are adults (if they can be bothered!)...

[Musha]

On Japanese news they interview people from different countrys which were affected by the pacific war.

China
Hates Japan

Korea
Hates them but some people like there music and goods.

Other countries don't care and welcome the help Japan gives them in veriouse ways.

I really do think that China is having troubles and the need some one to put the blame on. They can't blame the government because they will be quick to round people up and put them in jail or some thing so its best to blame another country instead :D.

[Akai Bushi]

...My understanding is that this all erupted over the publication of a new history book for Japanese schools that makes light of a massacre of Chinese people in Manchuria...

...and it's not just China... Korea too... Check out : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4411771.stm

This is so common... in all countries... we tell our children what we want them to believe and then they have to discover the truth for themselves when they are adults (if they can be bothered!)...

Sounds like from this article that the Japanese Government has very little control of what textbooks their children use. That some local districts are the ones choosing these textbooks. I guess the only way for the Japanese National government to step in is if they reform their education system so that the National Education Ministry has more power in these matters. Of course Japan is always slow to reform its government and usually when National governments take over education as apposed to local governments education starts going down hill. In the United States when the Federal government wishes to institute something in state schools they say either do this or we'll with hold money and of course my state, California, always caves in. And we have some of the worst schools in the United States. I think 5th from the bottom out of the 50 states.

[Commander]

Why do the Chinese hate the Japanese?

[crabbi]

Why do the Chinese hate the Japanese?
Oops! Now you've done it!!! Just wait for the battle to commence!!!

Cheers

[kanyil]

Oops! Now you've done it!!! Just wait for the battle to commence!!!

Cheers

hahaha, let me take the first swing by offering the short version of the story. btw, as opposed to the Chinese, Taiwanese have very mixed feeling about Japan, but we won't go into the reasons for that here. I think the entire situation is a little political as well, but as they say, "there is no smoke without fire".

The short version is that Japan invaded China sometime around WW2, and murdered, enslaved, and raped legions. The incident of the "Rape of Nanking" has ever since been used as an icon of Japanese atrocities (used in the same fashion as Auschwitz etc).

Unlike Germany, which is courageously taking responsibility for its WW2 atrocities and made a point to educate its younger generations to ensure "never again", Japan has chose to hide the entire incident from its younger generation, which is not a little like rubbing salt into wound.

The less publicized fact that the Japanese High Court has just rejected the claims of the many Chinese, Korean and Taiwanese "comfort women" (who were pressed into service as sex slaves for the Japanese occupation army during WW2) probably added fuel to the fire.

[ChaShu]

Why do the Chinese hate the Japanese?

Whoo... I could fill a page with just some bullet points with this question. I actually have "discussions" with my wife about this sometimes (I'm Filipino-Chinese and she's Japanese). Primary among this arguement is Japan's atroceties and aggressive actions against its neighbours during the first half of the last century (not just WW2). While there have been numerous statements of regret over the years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan), part of what makes this sensitive is how long it took for a statement to be forthcoming. Also this recent publishing of textbooks contravenes a 1980 agreement that Japan would pay attention to the content regarding the period and make corrections.

I believe (IMHO) that while the government position outwards may be one of regret and reconciliation, many Japanese today do not know or actively deny Japan's negative actions against its neighbours. While in Germany, it is illegal to deny the Holocaoust (Germany is now prosecuting Ernzt Zundel for actively promoting that the holocaoust was a hoax), in Japan, it is either not illegal to deny atroceties or if it is, it is not actively prosecuted. Additionally, Japan has prominent politicians like Shintaro Ichihara who was quoted in Playboy as saying that the Nanjing Massacre "never happened" and was a "Chinese creation" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shintaro_Ishihara), and other politicians protesting a manga publishing details of the massacre because they believe that it is not true http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=1&id=315342.
Despite the apologies, the general Japanese populations does not seem to believe that these actions never happened.

Now to the present... Currently there are a few contentious events that have stirred up the pot between Japan and its neighbours.

One is a dispute over maritime territories which Japan and it's neighbours all claim as their own. Not coincidentally, there is reputedly oil beneath SOME of the said territories.
Japan is currently (and has been over the last few years) in discussions to make changes to its constitution and the fear is that they will remove the constraints placed on its military as a solely self-defence force and a renewal of military buildup. This is seen by many of its neighbours as a threat. Couple with that it's already large military budget (5th largest military spend in the world behind USA, PRChina, UK, and France (???)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces) this can seem very scary to East Asia.

Rising Japanese Neo-Nationalism ala Shintaro Ichihara and his like have begun to give Japan and the Japanese a growing reputation of racism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nationalism
Continuing visits by the Emperor to shrines honouring what is considered by many of Japan's neighbours as WW2 war criminals.
Japan's recent bid to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050417/ap_on_re_as/japan_feisty_diplomacy has also raised doubts about Japan's policy of pacifism in the region.
While these reasons do not justify the violent protests, I hope this clarifies some questions about the animosity that Japan's neighbours feel.

[Wifenmummy]

It suprised me hearing bout theese protests and hatred by the chinese towards the Japanese... forgive me i did ancient history at school (not modern history)
The chinese need to be more forgiving of the japanese... from what i know its not like japan had a easy time during the war or anything themselves but thats all part of it i suppose.. I think the past shouldnt be forgotten but the future and present should be more focused on....

[ChaShu]

It suprised me hearing bout theese protests and hatred by the chinese towards the Japanese... forgive me i did ancient history at school (not modern history)
The chinese need to be more forgiving of the japanese... from what i know its not like japan had a easy time during the war or anything themselves but thats all part of it i suppose.. I think the past shouldnt be forgotten but the future and present should be more focused on....

Fortunately and unfortunately part of what defines the East Asian psyche is their strong connection to the past. The idea of holding a multigenerational grudge is not unheard of. Now recognizing that though it would follow that asking them to forgive is a difficult thing for them to do. An injury to an ancestor, even in the case of the first half of the 20th century where a direct relative may not have been affected, is an injury to oneself (a collective "ancestor" if one will...). Just as the the Chinese (and OTHER neighbours of Japan) have trouble with forgiveness, so do the general Japanese population have trouble with admitting their mistakes of the past. It defines them and their self image, their "face" if you will. Understanding this will help in understanding how difficult it is to ask all the parties to change their behaviour.

[ISSAC RU]

Japan doesn't face what they have done to the asian countries during WWII.
In China , 23 Million People died because of the Japanese invasion.Not just only WWII , the conflicts between China and Japan started around the mid 17 century when Japanese partriots started harass the soutern coast of China.
After that , the Sino-Japanese war . ....nurmouse conflicts after entering the 20s century..!

The thing that piss most of the Asians off is that Japanese don't want to face the history truth , they rather live in their little own isolated world .

Now the Japanese want to join the Secruity council in UN , but nobody would accept them as a major power when they can't even face their own history.
116 countries in the world joined together as a organization called " Coffee Club''
to oppose to the idea of letting 1 more chair in the Secruity Council.

I am surprised when I saw most of the western history text book , it seems to me that Japanese role in the WWII only started when they attacked Pearl Harbour. That is very B.S. ...A text could go on forever talking about the mass murder of the jews but never mentioned a single word about what Japan did in WWII.

For Musha :

Hatred towards Japan is not something called " giving away the blame ''.
Do you think one day the jews going to live happly ever after with the Arabs ?
I don't think so , your prespectives are being propergandaly washed by the Japanese Media. They repeaetly show those video clips about chinese destroying Japanese embassy and shops and that makes you think Chinese hates Japanese. Chinese don't hate Japanese for them being Japanese , Chinese hate Japanese for what they have done and never apologize for it .
How come nobody in the world oppose to Germany right now ? because they admitted and apologized for what they have done .
You only be living in Japan for a short period of time , soon you will discover what kind of the people they are . If you really interested in the Japanese people , you should read a book called : The Chrysanthemum and the sword.


Japan is a very dangerous country . They spent the world 2nd highest of amount of money on Millitary( just behind U.S.A.). That doens't make sense after all for a defeated loser with the help of the Americans.

For Kanyil :

One more time , bro. There is not such word called " Taiwanese '' . If lets say I m tokyo , Do I say I am Tokyosian? Japan did a unforgivble crime to the people of taiwan , I don't understand how can those people just go to their freakin shinine and bow to those bastard criminals?

[Musha]

Well every country in the world has done some thing bad to another country. The Romans invaded half the world and enslaved many people, the Vikings, Spanish and South America and many other countries, England also invaded half the world. The Americans almost wiped out the native Americans so if every country in the world were to appologize to every other country, that would mean every one would live in harmony with each other and there would be no more wars :D. What does it matter if some president apologises to some one else for some thing only afew old people know about.

In England alot of people still think of the war when they see a German person. And Russians are still thought of as communist. Almost every war you can think of happening at the moment is because of some thing that some other country did in the past.

So if you see some guy is from a country that had some a war with your country working in a Resutorant trust that guy because he might do it again or spit in your soup or some thing :D.

And about text books, why in England do we never learn about British colonialism? All the Africans better start burning posters of Tony Blair.

The Chinese better stop living in the past and think about there own country..

For Kanyil :

One more time , bro. There is not such word called " Taiwanese '' . If lets say I m tokyo , Do I say I am Tokyosian? Japan did a unforgivble crime to the people of taiwan , I don't understand how can those people just go to their freakin shinine and bow to those bastard criminals?

BTW my spelling is crap too but you need to think a little about your grammar ISSAC RU.

jews going to live happly ever after with the Arabs ?
think Chinese hates Japanese.
How come nobody in the world oppose to Germany right now ?
You only be living in Japan for a short period of time ,

Sounds like you have been taking grammar lessons from Ali-G or some one.

Das Jews going to live happly ever with za Arabs ya thinks does yo?
think za Chinese going to hates Japanese.

Sorry I better get off my soap box :D. This thing would be funny if for the fact it doen't stop some one like America is going to have to step in and fight a war with China and North Korea. I can see it coming in less than 10 years...Crap!

[Musha]

Japan is a very dangerous country . They spent the world 2nd highest of amount of money on Millitary( just behind U.S.A.). That doens't make sense after all for a defeated loser with the help of the Americans.


One more thing, Japan has a large army because it is an American base in the far East. There are many American bases inside Japan and if a war does happen in the far East America will rely on Japan as a launch pad as with the Korean war.

Japan has always been passive since WW2, the people always elect a passive government and at the moment they are still trying to work out if they should let troups even leave the country. The Japanese army Jieitai (Self defence force) can't leave the country only to help with aid work..

[ISSAC RU]

Japanese are not stupid , Don't you think they know they can't start a war or leave their country for war ? They know , but why they are spending so much money on it ? Because they will be someday , recent news. Japanese parliment is trying to pass its law of start war for its ' Self-defence ' .
Don't you see? Japanese army are tranning consistenly oversea like place such as : Iraq , Indonisia , africa and so on..what are they plans?
They are building one of the world largest transportation cruise. Why?
Having your 4th generation fighters on the air 90% of the time , why? ( U.S.A 80%)
Spending over 20 billion dollars on U.S.A.'s TMD system , why?
having more than 800 fighters consists with F-15 , F-16 , F-2 , F-14 and large tranportation plans or those P-30s , why?
With a navy of the world top-technology of oversea battle , why?

Spend over 44 billion dollars on Millitary / year and increase its amount each year by 8-10% , why?

Sometimes I ask myself , Why do a country like Japan needs a such great millitary power with it has The world most powerful country on its side ?
Because they are up to something that you never know.....

[Richmond-san]

You guys both have some very valid points. I'm not going to pretend Like I know anything about post WW2 Japan but I believe they are going to pursue their own desings eventually, Maybe break away from the mainstream and they are just pooling their resources. As far as the Chinese hating the japanese, I don't really buy it. Do you know how many times I have been told that I must hate Arabs just because I am American??? Too many. Further more I think my own country is a fine example of the national government producing an opinion for the world that it's own people do not agree with. You have to remember that media cannot be trusted. But at the same time I am not denying what anybody has said here on this thread. Regarding the U.S. stepping in during an asian conflict, I think we could to mind our own buissness and focus on the immense problems in our own country.

Richmond-san

[Musha]

Up to some thing? What?
In England I knew alot of people who joined the army. And the army are every where trying to get people to apply. At schools, colleges, on the streets but in Japan you hardly ever see them.

At the moment Japan's army is just doing aid work and no real fighting. But as I said, if you lived right next to one of the only agressive countries in the world to still posess nuclear weapons. Wouldn't you want to be prepared for the unexpected?

At the moment China and North Korea are said to be the only countrys that could realisticly defeat America in a war.. Thats the real problem, not stupid Japnese text book at some Junior school..

[ISSAC RU]

If the young generations of Japan don't know the consenquences.. I think it would be troustrous.

I remember a very famous phrase :

History often repeat itself in a process of all means.

[mingshi]

I didn't take History when I was at school - I thought the teenagers today has more knowledge into that part of World History, and after roughly reading bits here, I have proved myself wrong.

It's not a matter of how much you can remember from the book, but more about how you make some sense out of it.

First of all I am netural to the entire matter so far, despite me being Chinese and practicing a Japanese martial arts, etc.

There are a lot of aspects in the matter that are totally separated from one another. If you think "the Chinese hate the Japanese so much" has anything to do with "apologizing for the last generation"... well, I know you haven't been reading any paper, or checking news on that, and you are simply repeating what your friends is telling you over a chat.

Not sure about the "Japan aiding China" thing here - I need to see the figures and source. But I do know that there are plently of Japanese companies manufacturing goods from China and that's the way to promote economy on both sides, and is beneficial to the global community. It's has nothing to do with "I killed your parents before so here's some compensation for you". If there is really financial aid... the IMF didn't killed people in Zambia, but Zambia is $25 million in debt of the IMF - History has nothing to do with giving aid.

So, what is wrong with Japan? You should have read about some by now, but this is how I interpret the situation:-

1) Some ultra-right-wing groups are publishing textbooks for schools (although that version is not widely used) which soften the wrong doings of Imperial Japan, say, not using the word "Invasion" but rather claiming it's just a process of a growing nation, and also cancelled out the word "comfort woman" as the term is not intented for school students... which sounds like another cover-up.

The same right-wing group also publishes books about how the Rape of Nanking did not take place. They were saying the photos about the events are fake and therefore the incident was also a false claim. What would you feel if there was a German professor publishing a book saying there was no concentration camps in Auschwitz, and no gas chamber was ever built to kill the Jews?

2) The South China Sea Islands Dispute: be it the Uotsuri-jima/ Diaoyu Dao or Takeshima/ Dokdo. There are historical or even internationally-recognized documents on where the country borders are, so it is not up to Japan to just draw a line some where on the map and says, "that's mine".

3) PM Koizumi visits the Yasukuni Shrine every new year - a shrine which symbolizes Imperialism and glorifying war criminals. His act is puzzling - if he is merely paying respect to the war dead, why not go elsewhere?

Do you think the Japanese government should be more consistent about their WWII past? Assuming the average Japanese citizen is sensible, anger should of course be directed more towards the government. Unfortunately, the Chinese protestors do not seem to agree with me.

While I would support peaceful demonstration to raise awareness in the issues, riots and violence should not be tolerated. Smashing Japanese restaurants operated by locals and owned by people from Hong Kong is just ignorant. Throwing bricks at the Japanese Embassy is barbaric. Vandalizing Jusco is stupid - everyone in the shop is Chinese and they are selling Chinese products. Even my Sony mobile and Toshiba laptop has Made in China printed on them. The so-called patriotic Chinese could have smashed my stuff -but what has anger towards a irresponsible government has anything to do with my laptop??

Anger should better be used as a postive energy to promote understanding and peace. We has already witnessed how negative anger can get - from 9/11 to endless Baghdad bombing of civilians. And then you have Anti-french in Ivory Coast and even jounralists got killed. Extreme Patrotism is a dangerous thing, if it gets blind and out of control, it is not very different from terrorism.

Every country has an ugly past about invasion and such. But that has nothing to do with ignoring or being irresponsible about it - as I said one fact has to be separated from another. You are only as good as what you are. Acknowledge your part in history and all countries should work together towards a peaceful world for the future generation. Properly edcuating for your citizens (both sides) is a good starting point.

By participating in this thread, you are showing how much you know about your world, what role are you playing as a 21st Century generation to understand global social issues. If you think a simple line of "I don't understand - why get angry - get over it" is going to help, you are just being as ignorant and illogical as the protestors.

I hope I haven't wasted my lunch time today.

[ISSAC RU]

I do agree those protestors are bring ignorant and childish , but those riots are just a sparkle of a next big event that is going to be taking place .
All those anti-Japanese demonstrations across asia has shown the faulse policies the Koyizimi gov't had chosen.


P.S. : BURN DOWN THE ''Yasukuni Shrine '' , That is like a hall of famous for all the nazi criminals.

[KhawMengLee]

Lets see if I can sum this issue up. Take a man who has broken into your home and raped your wife/mother/sister/daughter. He gets caught, begs for mercy, apologizes and you forgive him. Later on you overhear him say to someone else that he enjoyed raping your loved one and that it wasen't rape. You hear him say, oh, she wanted it, I mean I didn't break in...it never happened...I mean the broken window, fingerprints and the bruises on her face dont't mean anything.

How would you feel?

I'm Malaysian. I can tell you that many of the older generation have not forgotten what Japan did. We have put it in the past but you must understand that China and Korea suffered on a much larger scale.

Investment, does not equal an apology or reperation. Its cheaper to manufacture in China, the investment has to do with economies of scale not redemption. Now if Japan was sincere of the issue at hand then it would formally apologize to the Comfort women and at least(small consolation as it may be) pay them some sort of compensation for being raped by up to 10-20 men daily.

Now don't brandish me an anti-japanese bigot. I don't hate Japan or Japanese people. My first love was a japanese girl(along with the first heartbreak..heh) from Kyushu and I'll never forget the place. Japanese literary greats like Eiji Yoshikawa and Soseki Natsume not to mention the years of enjoyment with Kendo show us that Japan can create ideas that inspire greater virtues among us.

But when one does wrong one must own up to one's mistakes. Just as one give's credit where it is due...critique is given when it is due.

[KhawMengLee]

Why do the Chinese hate the Japanese?

Think-

Why do Americans hate/dislike/distrust Muslims after Sept11?

[KenShi_JoB]

I do agree those protestors are bring ignorant and childish , but those riots are just a sparkle of a next big event that is going to be taking place .
All those anti-Japanese demonstrations across asia has shown the faulse policies the Koyizimi gov't had chosen.


P.S. : BURN DOWN THE ''Yasukuni Shrine '' , That is like a hall of famous for all the nazi criminals.

Across asia?? I only think that it's only mainly Korea and China.

If I am the Japanese government, I would prepare the armament too. China do have nuke,right? I think that's even more dangerous.

For you, yasukuni shrine is a hall of the nazi criminal, for some of them, it is a hall of their ancestor and brave soldier. Japanese nationalistic may be dangerous, but attitude like yours can cause a war too.

[Akai Bushi]

Hmm...Where should I start so many points have been made. Many quite unknowledgable about East Asian History. And many right on the money.

Ok I guess I'll start with why Japan uses the 2nd most amount of money on its military in the world.
Japan has a very high tech. military unlike Korea and China and many of its East Asian neighbors. China has man power Japan has to make up for it with technology. Technology is very expensive. If Japan does not keep up its strength in the region it will create a power vaccum. Taiwan isn't safe without the US and Japan in the area keeping a balance with China's military might. The first chance China gets they will move on Taiwan. And there shouldn't be anything to fear from Japan firing the first shot I mean if Japan wanted to be a bully in the region they would build a nuclear missle and I mean if anyone can do it without any help it's Japan.

The point about Japanese pirates attacking China from the seventeenth century is a few centuries off. By the 17th century most of the pirates in that region were Chinese. But yes China does have a point about Japanese piracy in the 14th and 15th centuries. But are we going to bring up things 600 years ago. Talk about holding a grudge that's not very healthy.

The point about Japanese textbooks not teaching what really happened in WWII is true, but only about .1% true. Only about .1% of Jr. High Schools in Japan use that textbook that set off that spark. And it doesn't say, nothing happened in Nanking it just says many died instead of 300,000 died.

And then Japan has apologized for WWII and has given much money in recompensation to China. And please don't complain that it took too long to get an apology. We're talking about East Asia here. Good luck Tibet ever getting an apology from the Chinese government.

Koizumi visiting the Shrine to all soldiers who have died in Japanese wars since the Bakumatsu. I'm so proud of this man in the face of so much hostile protest he still visits this Shrine. Koizumi is probably the best thing that has happened to Japan since Shotoku Taishi. This is a shrine to soldiers that died for their country. True many were evil men, but many were just serving their country. Many people want to demonize Japan for having its imperialistic period one century too late. England, France, Spain, Portugal, and others had imperialistic eras. Doesn't make it right, but soldiers(children, 18 year old people that can't think for themselves, but fighting and dieing for their country) fight when their lord or country calls them.

And I've never heard of this in Germany. So if you stood on a street corner and said the Holocost never happened you can be prosecuted? I mean to say it is nuts, but to arrest the man is pretty nuts too? Doesn't Germany have freedom of speech laws?

In conclusion, what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but China needs to get over it. Japan is one of the most peaceful countries in the world. If you accually talk to a Japanese citizen war is the furthest thing from their minds. It's pretty ironic to say this, but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars. What needs to be done is both sides need to sit down and hammer this out. Both sides need to teach their students about the atrocities of war and the evil of war. China need to also teach its students not to hate Japanese people, thats just racism in its purest form.

[KhawMengLee]

It suprised me hearing bout theese protests and hatred by the chinese towards the Japanese... forgive me i did ancient history at school (not modern history)
The chinese need to be more forgiving of the japanese... from what i know its not like japan had a easy time during the war or anything themselves but thats all part of it i suppose.. I think the past shouldnt be forgotten but the future and present should be more focused on....

It takes a while to forget and a lot longer to forgive. Japan like Germany had a good ole' time when they were on their merry expansion run and then got a taste of what they gave when the tide turned.

As someone pointed out earlier Imagine if Germany started printing books glorifying the Nazis and saying the Holocaust didn't happen.

I think the protestors where stupid and childish, but then again (as Terry Pratchett puts it) the mob's intelligence is determined by the IQ of the stupidest mob member divided by the number of people in the mob.

Respect needs to be given by both sides but I think so far Japan hasen't given any to China.

[KenShi_JoB]

If I have better english, I would post something similar to you. Agree completely!



Hmm...Where should I start so many points have been made. Many quite unknowledgable about East Asian History. And many right on the money.

Ok I guess I'll start with why Japan uses the 2nd most amount of money on its military in the world.
Japan has a very high tech. military unlike Korea and China and many of its East Asian neighbors. China has man power Japan has to make up for it with technology. Technology is very expensive. If Japan does not keep up its strength in the region it will create a power vaccum. Taiwan isn't safe without the US and Japan in the area keeping a balance with China's military might. The first chance China gets they will move on Taiwan. And there shouldn't be anything to fear from Japan firing the first shot I mean if Japan wanted to be a bully in the region they would build a nuclear missle and I mean if anyone can do it without any help it's Japan.

The point about Japanese pirates attacking China from the seventeenth century is a few centuries off. By the 17th century most of the pirates in that region were Chinese. But yes China does have a point about Japanese piracy in the 14th and 15th centuries. But are we going to bring up things 600 years ago. Talk about holding a grudge that's not very healthy.

The point about Japanese textbooks not teaching what really happened in WWII is true, but only about .1% true. Only about .1% of Jr. High Schools in Japan use that textbook that set off that spark. And it doesn't say, nothing happened in Nanking it just says many died instead of 300,000 died.

And then Japan has apologized for WWII and has given much money in recompensation to China. And please don't complain that it took too long to get an apology. We're talking about East Asia here. Good luck Tibet ever getting an apology from the Chinese government.

Koizumi visiting the Shrine to all soldiers who have died in Japanese wars since the Bakumatsu. I'm so proud of this man in the face of so much hostile protest he still visits this Shrine. Koizumi is probably the best thing that has happened to Japan since Shotoku Taishi. This is a shrine to soldiers that died for their country. True many were evil men, but many were just serving their country. Many people want to demonize Japan for having its imperialistic period one century too late. England, France, Spain, Portugal, and others had imperialistic eras. Doesn't make it right, but soldiers(children, 18 year old people that can't think for themselves, but fighting and dieing for their country) fight when their lord or country calls them.

And I've never heard of this in Germany. So if you stood on a street corner and said the Holocost never happened you can be prosecuted? I mean to say it is nuts, but to arrest the man is pretty nuts too? Doesn't Germany have freedom of speech laws?

In conclusion, what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but China needs to get over it. Japan is one of the most peaceful countries in the world. If you accually talk to a Japanese citizen war is the furthest thing from their minds. It's pretty ironic to say this, but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars. What needs to be done is both sides need to sit down and hammer this out. Both sides need to teach their students about the atrocities of war and the evil of war. China need to also teach its students not to hate Japanese people, thats just racism in its purest form.

[mingshi]

Only about .1% of Jr. High Schools in Japan use that textbook that set off that spark. And it doesn't say, nothing happened in Nanking it just says many died instead of 300,000 died.
Hi. That textbook is approved by Monbusho. Also the tone is "softened", as I said.

And then Japan has apologized for WWII and has given much money in recompensation to China.
Hi. I'd walk in your house, kill your entire family. And 50 years later I'd give you a billion dollars for compensation, but I'll say I haven't killed anyone in my life...

Koizumi visiting the Shrine to all soldiers who have died in Japanese wars since the Bakumatsu. I'm so proud of this man in the face of so much hostile protest he still visits this Shrine. ...True many were evil men, but many were just serving their country.
Hi. What differ Yasukuni Shrine from the rest is that it is the very shrine serving Class-A war criminals, not any of your under-18 child soldiers. Should I assume you to be the type of person who wold stand in front of Hilter and Himmler's craves and say, "wow, they did their duty and served their country well. I salute you."

The mentality of me visiting Yasukuni Shrine as a historical-cultural heritage site is completely different from a Japanese PM bowing there every year.

In conclusion, what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but China needs to get over it... It's pretty ironic to say this, but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars... blah blah blah
Hi. So I wasted my lunch time to some Japanophile.

Not only should the citizens in Japan and China be more educated about the fact. YOU have to understand what is going on in the world too. I repeat: It's not a matter of "so... get over it..."

Ignorant is worse than illiterate.

[crabbi]

....Just wanted to say that i am learning an awful lot by following this thread...

I was brought up / educated in the UK and certainly we were not taught anything at all about South-East Asian history (or Latin American for that matter) ... in fact, as was mentioned in one of the posts above, we were taught nothing about some of the negative aspects of British Imperialism / Colonnialism / Trade...

I am sure that I am not alone in finding this a very interesting thread...

Thanks to all contributors so far...

cheers

[Akai Bushi]

Hi. That textbook is approved by Monbusho. Also the tone is "softened", as I said.


Hi. I'd walk in your house, kill your entire family. And 50 years later I'd give you a billion dollars for compensation, but I'll say I haven't killed anyone in my life...


Hi. What differ Yasukuni Shrine from the rest is that it is the very shrine serving Class-A war criminals, not any of your under-18 child soldiers. Should I assume you to be the type of person who wold stand in front of Hilter and Himmler's craves and say, "wow, they did their duty and served their country well. I salute you."

The mentality of me visiting Yasukuni Shrine as a historical-cultural heritage site is completely different from a Japanese PM bowing there every year.


Hi. So I wasted my lunch time to some Japanophile.

Not only should the citizens in Japan and China be more educated about the fact. YOU have to understand what is going on in the world too. I repeat: It's not a matter of "so... get over it..."

Ignorant is worse than illiterate.
Sorry to waste your lunch time. Maybe you should eat instead of wasting it on someone as ignorant of world issues as myself.

What about world issues don't I understand? That Chinese are raised in a communist controlled country were the government decides what you are taught and what you are allowed to say. Where what you believe is just government propaganda. Even South Korea was an authoritarian democracy until the early ninties so much of what the adult population in South Korea believes was propaganda feed to them from a young age.

And prove to me Japanese have denied killing Chinese. Japanese Prime Minisiters have apologized many times in the last thirty years for the terrible atrocities against Korea, China, and many other countries. No apology is ever going to be enough.
Here is alittle timeline of apologies throughout history. Not just Japan.
http://reserve.mg2.org/apologies.htm

This word Japanophile. It is used so often when someone has a view point that supports Japan and they're not of Japanese birth. So if I supported the Chinese in this debate then I guess I would be a Sinophil. So suddenly I'm not allowed to have my own legitimate view point because I'm a Japanophil. " Don't listen to him he is a Japanophil. He must be an idiot to defend Japan."

Who is to say Koizumi is paying respect to the War Criminals and not the 18 year olds. It probably would be better if the war criminals were removed, but Yasukuni Jinja is the national shrine dedicated to those that have fought and died for Japan over the last 150 years and I will continue to support Koizumi. You are living in Hong Kong right, if China drafted you at 18 and sent you to Tibet to kill some monks I'm pretty sure you'd do it. People change their principles pretty quick at gun point.

And I didn't JUST say so get over it. I said it will take reeducation of Chinese and Japanese students. I mean is throwing bricks at an embassy the correct way of solving problems. These aren't protestors their bloody rioters.
And if neither side wants to sit down an talk this out maybe it would be better if Japan just left China. I mean then we'll see how both countries really need each other.

[Musha]

About Yasukuni. That shrine is dedicated to all the war dead over Japan's history. There are many war memorials in England and what if some one said, "Its bad to go there every remembrance day and the people who died for there country when at war do not deserve any respect."

I haven't been there my self so I don't know, but I wouldn't have thought that inside it only said this shrine is for Hideki Tojyo and the war criminals charged at the Tokyo war trials.

And Koizumi is damed if he does and damed if he don't' go to Yasukuni-jinja. The Japanese people would think he was soft if he listend to the Chinese and Chinese think he was supportive of the war if he goes...

[kanyil]

First of all I am neutral to the matter. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, and I am entitled to mine since my internet is not censored. :D



Japan is a very dangerous country . They spent the world 2nd highest of amount of money on Millitary( just behind U.S.A.). That doens't make sense after all for a defeated loser with the help of the Americans.



Chinese don't hate Japanese for them being Japanese , Chinese hate Japanese for what they have done and never apologize for it .


For Kanyil :

One more time , bro. There is not such word called " Taiwanese '' . If lets say I m tokyo , Do I say I am Tokyosian? Japan did a unforgivble crime to the people of taiwan , I don't understand how can those people just go to their freakin shinine and bow to those bastard criminals?



Spend over 44 billion dollars on Millitary / year and increase its amount each year by 8-10% , why?



Right, and I suppose the PRC doesn't spend a lot of money on its military or act aggressively towards its neighbors? You claim Taiwan and China are family, yet aim 700+ missiles at us? Does that "make sense after all" for a supposed family member? Or is that what happens in a normal Chinese household?



I agree with you on the Chinese doesn't hate Japanese for being Japanese, etc, etc bit.



Taiwan has mixed feelings about Japan because we used to one of their colony, and admittedly, they did a lot for the island's infrastructure (if only for their own reasons). They had also treated us harshly, and despite the politics, most Taiwanese does identify some sort of kinship with the Chinese, and hence feel aggrieved by WW2 Japanese atrocities.



So is there no such a thing as the Shanghainese? Cantonese? Portuguese? Japanese? Vietnamese?



One more time, bro, the Taiwanese has always been the Taiwanese, and no amount of propaganda or nationalist sentiments will change that. Although knowing the Taiwanese, treating us fairly and temping us with opportunities to share in China's new found wealth may very well do what your missiles cannot do. If anything, the Taiwanese are pragmatic entrepreneurs, and everything comes after business. As Paul Keating has said once in relation to the China/Taiwan issue, "never come between a Taiwanese business man and a bucket of money".



The Taiwanese bow to the Yasukuni shrine? You must be talking about the isolated incident of this one particular parliamentarian from Taiwan Federation Party, headed by the Kyoto University educated ex-president Lee Teng-Hui.

Be reassured that they DO NOT represent the mainstream view of the Taiwanese (he's copped ALOT of flak ever since the incident). Although his argument is that he was there to pay homage to the 23,000 Taiwanese dead memorialized by the shrine, conscripted into battle by the Japanese during WW2. bollocks I say, but at least he's democratically elected, and may be deposed in a similar fashion when the time comes.


The last bit on increasing military spending may be also applicable to the PRC.



…The Americans almost wiped out the native Americans so if every country in the world were to appologize to every other country, that would mean every one would live in harmony with each other and there would be no more wars . What does it matter if some president apologises to some one else for some thing only afew old people know about…All the Africans better start burning posters of Tony Blair.



I believe your argument to be unsustainable. Size matters mate. The US does not sit next to a Cherokee Nation of 1.6 billion and armed to the teeth. Australia does not sit next to a nuclear-powered Aborigine tribe of 1.6 billion. Just wait for the day when the UK finds it self next to an ultra-nationalistic Zulu tribe of 1.6 billion, and Blair may begin to see things differently. :D



Hey man, a wrong is a wrong. An apology means a lot if spoken with sincerity, and that's when the healing/recovery can begin.



Japanese literary greats like Eiji Yoshikawa and Soseki Natsume not to mention the years of enjoyment with Kendo show us that Japan can create ideas that inspire greater virtues among us.

But when one does wrong one must own up to one's mistakes. Just as one give's credit where it is due...critique is given when it is due.



Why do Americans hate/dislike/distrust Muslims after Sept11?



Agreed.



Hi. I'd walk in your house, kill your entire family. And 50 years later I'd give you a billion dollars for compensation, but I'll say I haven't killed anyone in my life...



Every country has an ugly past about invasion and such. But that has nothing to do with ignoring or being irresponsible about it - as I said one fact has to be separated from another. You are only as good as what you are. Acknowledge your part in history and all countries should work together towards a peaceful world for the future generation. Properly edcuating for your citizens (both sides) is a good starting point.



Fair enough. Except in this case Japan's gift weren't all that much. Much of the investment in China arose out of entrepreneurship, not a sense of remorse.



Agreed.

[Musha]

So you mean Kanyil that its OK to bo bad things to small countrys but not big ones with lots of power?

This thread is getting dry now anyway. See what the Chinese and Japanese government has to say.

[KenShi_JoB]

Hi. That textbook is approved by Monbusho. Also the tone is "softened", as I said.


Hi. I'd walk in your house, kill your entire family. And 50 years later I'd give you a billion dollars for compensation, but I'll say I haven't killed anyone in my life...


Hi. What differ Yasukuni Shrine from the rest is that it is the very shrine serving Class-A war criminals, not any of your under-18 child soldiers. Should I assume you to be the type of person who wold stand in front of Hilter and Himmler's craves and say, "wow, they did their duty and served their country well. I salute you."

The mentality of me visiting Yasukuni Shrine as a historical-cultural heritage site is completely different from a Japanese PM bowing there every year.


Hi. So I wasted my lunch time to some Japanophile.

Not only should the citizens in Japan and China be more educated about the fact. YOU have to understand what is going on in the world too. I repeat: It's not a matter of "so... get over it..."

Ignorant is worse than illiterate.

England and France never apologize to Thailand too, for what they did in their colonialism. I doubt their children today even study about their evil deed with Thailand (but Thailand never became their colony, thanks to my ancestor). They never apologize. Call me ignorant all you want Mingshi, but my opinion still be "It's the way of the world, SO... GET OVER IT...". I state my opinion politely and you come and call the others "Japanophile" , "Ignorant". It's ok if you have a different opinion, but if you can not take that people can think differently than you, you should go have lunch instead of attacking others.

Are you god? Why do people that do not think the same way as you have to be wrong and ignorant? May be people like us can not make the world better, but people with hostile attitude like you are the cause of every war.

Yasukuni Shrine doesnot contain only class-A criminal, it's a shrine for all Japanese soldier died since meiji restoration.

So, as a Japanophile, I think China is more a treat to world peace than Japan.

[Yo...osh!]

I agree with Kanyil.

However I need to clarify in this forum that the Japanese government has never OFFICIALLY apologized to the Chinese for the atrocities of WWII. Neither have they OFFICIALLY apologised to the comfort women of China, Korea and Taiwan.

In 1998, the Japanese PM did aplogize for the occupation of Korea.

I don't condone the violent actions of the Chinese recently, and I think people should forgive and move on (as I have). However, unless the Japanese officially apologize, they are hard pressed to claim the higher moral ground. It would only take a press-conference and 5 minutes.

[KenShi_JoB]

I agree with Kanyil.

However I need to clarify in this forum that the Japanese government has never OFFICIALLY apologized to the Chinese for the atrocities of WWII. Neither have they OFFICIALLY apologised to the comfort women of China, Korea and Taiwan.

In 1998, the Japanese PM did aplogize for the occupation of Korea.

I don't condone the violent actions of the Chinese recently, and I think people should forgive and move on (as I have). However, unless the Japanese officially apologize, they are hard pressed to claim the higher moral ground. It would only take a press-conference and 5 minutes.

October 23, 1985: In an address to the United Nations, Japanese Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone apologizes for Japan?s role in World War II.

January 18, 1992: Japanese Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa apologizes for Japan?s use of "comfort women."

October 23, 1992: During a royal visit to China, Japanese Emperor Akihito expresses his sorrow for Japan?s wartime abuses

August 23, 1993: Japanese Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa uses his first parliamentary policy address to convey "a feeling of deep remorse and apologies for the fact that our country?s past acts of aggression and colonial rule caused unbearable suffering and sorrow for so many people."

September 20, 1993: Japanese Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa apologizes for suffering caused by Japan in World War II.

November 6, 1993: In South Korea, Japanese Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa apologizes to South Korean President Kim Young Sam for Japan?s wartime actions.

August 15, 1994: Japanese Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama apologizes for the suffering caused by Imperial Japan and concedes that other Asians suffered "tragic sacrifices beyond description."

June 9, 1995: The lower house of the Japanese Diet expresses "deep remorse" for the suffering inflicted on Asians and others in World War II.

July, 1995: Japanese Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama apologizes to the roughly 200,000 women who were put into brothels by Japanese forces to serve as sex slaves or "comfort women" and sets up a private "Asian Women?s Fund" to deal with reparations. The fund is "an expression on the part of the people of Japan to these women."

August 15, 1995: On the 50th anniversary of Japan?s surrender, Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama issues a statement of "heartfelt apologies" for Japan?s aggression. On the same date as Murayama?s statement, the National Diet adopts a "Resolution to Renew the Determination for Peace on the Basis of Lessons Learned from History."

December, 1996: Japanese Prime Minister Ryutara Hashimoto offers a letter of apology and monetary reparations to 500 survivors of the 200,000 "comfort women," but only six accept.

April 22, 1998: South Korean President Kim Dae Woo announces that the South Korean government will end its efforts to gain official compensation from the Japanese government for "comfort women" but will still seek an official apology and will not prevent individuals from seeking compensation.

April 27, 1998: A Japanese court dismisses claims from Korean "comfort women" for an official apology and compensation, saying that even though the women had suffered greatly, the Japanese government was under no legal obligation to provide either an apology or compensation.

October, 1998: Japanese Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi gives visiting South Korean President Kim Dae Jung a written statement saying that Japan "expressed deep remorse and extended a heartfelt apology" for inflicting "heavy damage and pain" on Koreans.

October 15, 2000: At a meeting in Tokyo, Chinese Prime Minister Zhu Rongji says China still feels that Japan has never properly apologized for its war atrocities but says it is Japan?s problem to decide whether and how to atone for its past.

May 24, 2001: Japan apologizes for forcing lepers to live in isolation decades after cures were available and agrees to pay $15 million to plaintiffs who successfully challenged laws that isolated them.

October 8, 2001: Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi apologizes and expresses condolences in China for those Chinese who lost their lives in World War II.

http://reserve.mg2.org/apologies.htm

Some of these information seem conflict each other though.

[Musha]

Was just thinking. Does China have a monument and memorial day for its war dead? If Koizumi went to Yasukuni jinja but refused to go to a Chinese war dead memorial day he was invited to then that would be a problem but if they never held one or never asked him or any one else, then whats to do?

[mingshi]

If it was simply a gesture of respect of the war dead - there is A-bomb ruin remains in Hiroshima.

Is the philosophy and the act of paying respect for ancestors hard for westerners to understand?

FYI Hong Kong was a British Colony for 99 years until 1999. Mainland Chinese education has nothing to do with me, besides I have cable and internet to gather my news source. As I said, don't mix up your facts and one matter should be separated from another. Coloninalism is one thing, massacre is another. If the Chinese government "drafted me at 18 to go to Tibet...yadda yadda", I'm bloody sure I will be shot because I am not the type of person who will "change their principles pretty quick at gun point".

According to Mingshism, I am a goddamned goddess, and I am entitled to my religious rights. Don't read if you don't like my post.

Modern Japan has been forgiven. Imperial Japan should not forgotten. History cannot be rewritten.

Last but not least, for the Japanophiles out there, it is mainly due to that quote "but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars" - as if Japan has suddenly become the model nation, the ultimate peace, the heaven, and nirvana. Sorry for getting you all upset and crying for your entire afternoon. I apologized. Now move on and get over it.

[KhawMengLee]

In conclusion, what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but China needs to get over it.

Yes, China has gotten over it. Writing a book that whitewashes war crimes is a sure way of stirring trouble up again.

Japan is one of the most peaceful countries in the world. If you accually talk to a Japanese citizen war is the furthest thing from their minds.

Er, if you talk to an avarage Joe/jane from the states I think war would be the last thing on his/her mind too.

It's pretty ironic to say this, but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars.

You know, that has got to be one of the stupidest things I have heard in a looooooong time. Might as well say, hey, if we allow child porn and rape to be shown its fine so long as no pubes are seen. Or Hey, sexual harrasment in the workplace is fine. Really, dude...

Your is as idiotic as saying lets all be like the americans and we'll have no war.

You should have just gone for compassion and mutual respect.

[KhawMengLee]

What about world issues don't I understand? That Chinese are raised in a communist controlled country were the government decides what you are taught and what you are allowed to say. Where what you believe is just government propaganda. Even South Korea was an authoritarian democracy until the early ninties so much of what the adult population in South Korea believes was propaganda feed to them from a young age.

.


Er...I think you're giving too little credit to China. They are developing at an alarming rate. I work there and believe me, in 10-15 years time they won't need us because they will have learnt enough to be self sufficient in terms of manufacturing and trade.

All those luxury goods electronic goods we enjoy will be made there by Chinese brands.

To think that China is some Stalinist state where a turnip is the hight of one's purchasing power in the supermarket would seriously be ignorant.

England and France never apologize to Thailand too, for what they did in their colonialism. I doubt their children today even study about their evil deed with Thailand (but Thailand never became their colony, thanks to my ancestor). They never apologize. Call me ignorant all you want Mingshi, but my opinion still be "It's the way of the world, SO... GET OVER IT...". I state my opinion politely and you come and call the others "Japanophile" , "Ignorant". It's ok if you have a different opinion, but if you can not take that people can think differently than you, you should go have lunch instead of attacking others.

Are you god? Why do people that do not think the same way as you have to be wrong and ignorant? May be people like us can not make the world better, but people with hostile attitude like you are the cause of every war.

Yasukuni Shrine doesnot contain only class-A criminal, it's a shrine for all Japanese soldier died since meiji restoration.

So, as a Japanophile, I think China is more a treat to world peace than Japan.

Its a debate dude. Passions are bound to fly.

I'm Malaysian and we fought the japanese in WWII. We lost good people and suffered because we stood up for our rights. You must understand that China and Korea, like Malaysia, fought. And in turn were brutalized.

Remember, Thailand claimed neutrality during the war and was largely pro-japanese ( Mostly due to Wanitto's influence on Prime Minister Phibun). As a result Thailand allowed the japanese forces to walk thru to the borders into the back yard of many countries. Apart from members of the resistance I doubt most thais truly understand what it was the countries that fought suffered.

My family went through a hell of a lot more and lost a lot of people and it shows them no respect when we someone says "Oh, get over it." and has not had to go through what they suffered.

I think Mingshi is trying to point out that some people have a romantisized view of Japan. A land of Samurai and ninjas and Hello Kitty without realising that like every other culture and country it has both its charm and shockers. What she's trying to do is make you see that there is a bigger picture at hand.

Last but not least, for the Japanophiles out there, it is mainly due to that quote "but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars" - as if Japan has suddenly become the model nation, the ultimate peace, the heaven, and nirvana. Sorry for getting you all upset and crying for your entire afternoon. I apologized. Now move on and get over it.

Mingshi doesn't pull punches boys n girls. Just like her kendo ;) Hello Mingshi! Long time no see! Honestly, What a post to get stuck into after a 6month kendo hiatus!

[KhawMengLee]

About Yasukuni. That shrine is dedicated to all the war dead over Japan's history. There are many war memorials in England and what if some one said, "Its bad to go there every remembrance day and the people who died for there country when at war do not deserve any respect."

I haven't been there my self so I don't know, but I wouldn't have thought that inside it only said this shrine is for Hideki Tojyo and the war criminals charged at the Tokyo war trials.

And Koizumi is damed if he does and damed if he don't' go to Yasukuni-jinja. The Japanese people would think he was soft if he listend to the Chinese and Chinese think he was supportive of the war if he goes...

God I love debate! Rowr!!!

Er...Germany's war memorials do not enshrine the bodies of Hitler or Himmler or Dirlewanger. I think the world would have the same reaction as China if it did and Schroder(oops if the spelling is wrong) honored it every year.

In a 1000 years, who cares? People remember King Richard as a hero. 1000 years ago he was a bastard to the muslims. The thing is...the horro of WWII is still close to our hearts and minds.

[Akai Bushi]

Look I'm not saying Japanese are perfect I'm just saying that they are less likely to start a war than alot of other countries or push their weight around.

And I haven't understated China's achievements. On the first page I stated China has grown up again to become the 6th largest economy and a military power. In addition no one can deny the great contributions of the China's culture to art, science, liturature, philosophy, and many other things. I just don't share the view point that China is being all too rational at this point about Japan's past. I agree what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but we shouldn't condemn Japan forever.

[KenShi_JoB]

I know Japan are no Hello Kitty land, but I really think Japan is quiet peaceful country today. I think China is more treat to the world peace. It's just my personal opinion. I have no problem if people have different point of view.

and sorry KhawMengLee, I am really sorry. I forget that how it sound like to say "get over it" to suffering people. Thank you for remind me that.

I am not that naive, I done my part on military service, I once work to feed myself in the financial field, one of the dirtiest sectors in Corperate Thailand. No one needs to treat me as a day-dream kid.

Yes, my country are not much suffering from Japanese in WW2, more from the bombs from USA on Bangkok. but I do understand the war than you think, my family are all (except me) military officers even my sister. My family past through vietnam war, communist rebelion in the border of Lao and Malaysia,etc. It's really made me think that if we keep holding a grudge to our former enemy, it will not solve the problem and only lead to another war. Every country war history do contain ugly story. Chinese Red army have many terrible deed against their own people who are against communist, some US army do rape and murder vietnamese girls, many Europian country do evil thing during their colonialism. Most of victims are not apologized. but if we cannot compromise, it will only result in global conflict, racist, etc.

Yes, I can not expect people to react in a polite way all the time, but I hope that a fellow kendoka can argue in a more polite way without calling each other "Japanophile" "Ignorant" "Idiot". No one know everyting, no one is perfect.

[Light Samurai]

Hey, kenshi Job, just wanted to compliment you on how good your english is :) Sorry, for this not having not to do with the topic.

[KhawMengLee]

I agree what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but we shouldn't condemn Japan forever.

Of course not. I've got a lot of good buddies from the land of the rising sun and I'd like to think that if we can be friends so can the rest of the world setting the past aside. Its just a few points of reconciliation and respect that needs to be cleared.

I'd like to think that when we sit over a few drinks, the situation is simplified with drunken stupor and we can all collapse in drunken revelry. After a few bottles of sake we all speak the same language;)

[Musha]

Nice post Job :wink:.

[ChaShu]

And I've never heard of this in Germany. So if you stood on a street corner and said the Holocost never happened you can be prosecuted? I mean to say it is nuts, but to arrest the man is pretty nuts too? Doesn't Germany have freedom of speech laws?

Despite freedom of speech to a certain degree, you can be charged with "incitement of the masses (Volksverhetzung, offence in Germany including Holocaust denial)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%FCndel This, I believe is one way which the German government is showing commitment to its remorse at its WW2 actions in an officially legislated capacity. While we can recognise that various Japanese officials have made statements of remorse regarding its WW2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan), the contentiousness may stem from the lack of official legislated actions such as demonstrated by the Germans. Also, having lived amongst a relatively Pan-European community while studying in Spain, the Germans seemed to be more in touch with their past and expressed a greater remorse, while I believe the general Japanese population seems to either lack the knowledge or would rather believe in the Japanese nationalist agenda of refusal and denial. My wife explained it this way, if they faced up to the past as a nation, they would lose face.

[ZealUK]

I'm surprised to see such a sycophantic defence of the Japanese from some people on here. The issue is not what has been done in the past, it is the acceptance of these deeds in the present so that both nations can move on into the future with a better relationship.

Its ironic that the Communist government in China would most likely not have gained power if Japan had not invaded Manchuria. Chag Kai Shek and his Guomintang army were marginalised by Mao Tse Tung and his revolutionaries for not being able to hold off the Japanese threat in Nanking. Mao saw that the common man was absolutely opposed to the Japanese invaders and resentful of the Guomintang, and used this to his advantage when he took it upon himself to sieze control of the country, culminating in the formation of a communist government over mainland China in 1949.

The Japanese seem to have a knack for annoying their neighbours. The recent news about South Korean sex slaves receiving absolutely no reparations from the Japanese government is scandalous. The 'incident' in Nanking needs to be explained properly in a realistic historical context so that both nations can foster better relations. Whether the Chinese government will come to its people and apologise for the tragedy in Tiannemen Square and the Cultural Revolution is another issue entirely.

[Sa Mu]

I think most of us had got over it after all my grandfather was a Chinese POW of the Imperial Japanese army in Malaysia and I married a Japanese woman without any complaints from my family, and my father was an English POW of the Communist Chinese Army in Korea and he married a Chinese woman. So no worries.
I think the thing that is getting everyones backs up at the moment is the Japanese Goverment allowing this book to be used and not saying anything against it. Like someone already said: can you imagine the reaction if the German Gov. allowed schools to use books saying that only 'some Jews died in the war'. They might lose face, but if they are interested in long term peace and trade alliances in the east they need to get over themselves and the fact they lost the war. I mean how bad is it to put in a book 'look we lost the war because our Imperialist ambition outgrew our ability and we ended up doing alot of really bad things in the process'.
It's not about holding a grudge, it's about not rubbing your neighbour up the wrong way.

[Paikea]

Perhaps I missed it in an earlier post, but do any of you think that this has much more to do with blocking the admission of Japan to the UN Security Council than it does with a deep-seated need to get a properly framed statement of apology?

China does not stone embassies and allow public displays such as this without carefully planned, strategic motivation. This isn't about history and hurt feelings - it's about power.

[Akai Bushi]

http://forum.japantoday.com/m_173618/mpage_5/key_/tm.htm
Read this forum. It will answer many of your questions about relations between China and Japan and Korea and Japan conserning WWII.

And your twisting the words of the textbook. It didn't say some people died. It said "many died." The claim by the people publishing the book is that no one has a real number of how many died. It's probably around 300,000, but no one can prove it. But it is true that many died, though they probably should have made it more eye opening by saying hundreds of thousands died in the Nanking Massacre. And I guess another point to be made is that even if you put 300,000 in the textbook would it really matter. Since when do Jr. High School students memorize how many causalties there were in a war. What would be the point. The evil of it all is the main thing that should be emphasised.

[KenShi_JoB]

http://forum.japantoday.com/m_173618/mpage_5/key_/tm.htm
Read this forum. It will answer many of your questions about relations between China and Japan and Korea and Japan conserning WWII.

And your twisting the words of the textbook. It didn't say some people died. It said "many died." The claim by the people publishing the book is that no one has a real number of how many died. It's probably around 300,000, but no one can prove it. But it is true that many died, though they probably should have made it more eye opening by saying hundreds of thousands died in the Nanking Massacre. And I guess another point to be made is that even if you put 300,000 in the textbook would it really matter. Since when do Jr. High School students memorize how many causalties there were in a war. What would be the point. The evil of it all is the main thing that should be emphasised.

Good website.

[bullet08]

http://forum.japantoday.com/m_173618/mpage_5/key_/tm.htm
Read this forum. It will answer many of your questions about relations between China and Japan and Korea and Japan conserning WWII.

And your twisting the words of the textbook. It didn't say some people died. It said "many died." The claim by the people publishing the book is that no one has a real number of how many died. It's probably around 300,000, but no one can prove it. But it is true that many died, though they probably should have made it more eye opening by saying hundreds of thousands died in the Nanking Massacre. And I guess another point to be made is that even if you put 300,000 in the textbook would it really matter. Since when do Jr. High School students memorize how many causalties there were in a war. What would be the point. The evil of it all is the main thing that should be emphasised.

some how.. 6 million jews.. that number is stuck in my head. not really sure why.

personally i think this 'history book' thing is just a tip of the iceberg.. i believe that red china has other things on the agenda.

i'm a korean.. i understand all this 'relationship' between japan/korea.. japan/china.. but this last one about 'history book' smells funny... as in it's almost too well 'organized' on china's part.

pete

[ISSAC RU]

For Musha :

As a foreigner like you , you do not understand the deep and mixed feelings that NorthEast Asia people have experienced. What Japan did was very simple if you putted this way :

Japan : I am apologzing for what Japan did in the WWII.

(After 10 min , Mr.Koyizimi took a train to the shrine and continue his work of saluting to those Tojo bastards )

The Shrine is not some simple shrine you picked up from Kyoto , It is a hall of fame for those War Criminials and Invaders all the way from the late 19century to the end of the WWII .

Some Japanese said " we had war with the americans 50 years ago , how come americans forgave us and the Chinese and Koreans won't ''
I think your intellgent is good enough to figure this out.

If some barbarian state invaded your country 50 years ago and killed more than 30 million people in your country and still denied the fact . What would you think ?

Personally , I don't give a sh*t to those Japanese apologies , because they don't mean anything except some tougue slash. You know why?
BECAUSE THEY STILL DON'T TEACH THEIR KIDS THE TRUTH .

You think a history text book is nothing to be serioused about?
TAKE THIS AGAIN : HISTORY OFTEN REPEAET ITSELF IN A PROCESS OF ALL MEANS.

You think Japanese spend so much money on milltary is because the treat of China owing bunch of nukes?

Name one country in the World that has been invaded by China.
Border War with India and Vietname during the mid 60s and late 70s proved
China will not invade a country even her force is greatly out ranged the enenmy.
I know you want to say Tibet and Taiwan , here is the thing :

Taiwan and Tibet are part of the China since 900 years ago , part of the country. You can't denied the fact.

Finally , I just want to say . You have been propangandaly washed by the Japanese media and your little Japanese wanna-be mind.

[kanyil]

In case any of our Japanese friends are reading this, I think most of us have gotten over this mess, and we are just debating for the fun of it, right? (at least I am). :D

So you mean Kanyil that its OK to bo bad things to small countrys but not big ones with lots of power?

Morally it may sound fishy, but in real life? YES. If Taiwan's population was 1.6 billion strong and nuclear-powered then China would think twice before claiming us as their "sovereign territory" without first consulting our consensus.


Taiwan and Tibet are part of the China since 900 years ago , part of the country. You can't denied the fact.


*cough*cough* Dutch colonization, *cough*cough* Spanish?/Portuguese? Colonization *cough*cough* British occupation (yes, not widely known), *cough*cough* Japanese colonization. When it was supposedly "taken-back" to the fold from the Dutch it was then promptly occupied by a rebel, Cheng, Cheng-Kung. (and people wonder why our politicians are so unruly). :D

[mingshi]

... And I guess another point to be made is that even if you put 300,000 in the textbook would it really matter.
Hi, you know... MANY died when the US dropped an A-bomb or two at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People exposed within A FEW meters of ground zero was fatal. People exposed at distances of MANY kilometers later showed symptoms of aftereffects, including radiation-induced cancers.

Whoa. The power of MANY. :smoker:

[Musha]

ISSAC RU, I understand being here in Japan is that Japanese people are too busy trying to get home from work at 11pm before the last train to see there family or drink with friends. And school kids too busy with exams and kendo and stuff to be worried about what happened 70 or so years ago.

You expect every one to be more miserable and big banners all around Japan saying "WE INVADED NANKING AND KILLED AND RAPED MANY CHINESE! 75 YEARS AGO". Its not that most Japanese don't know about the war, its that the American government and Japanese government has tried hard to stop Japanese interest in war. Most people just think it is boring, kendo by people who don't know about it see even kendo as some thing old fashioned and any thing related to war in general.

P.s I know American kids grow up fast but if you are this oppinionated at 16 years old I'd hate to see you at 25 or 30. When I was 16 I was thinking about the cheapest ways to get violent computer games, not hanging on some forum full of agression, fingers like wood, face as red as hell writing about some thing that happened 65 years ago.
Hm I better get doing some thing fun too, maybe visit Yasukuni my self :D. ONLY JOKING!

[ChaShu]

BTW, just so there's no confusion, there ARE such people as Taiwanese just as I am Fujianese and Hakka, and darned proud of it. While many Northern Chinese would have you believe that there is one homogenous "Chinese" or Han ethnicity or culture, there is not. For many centuries during Imperial China, we in the south have been marginalized and criminalized for our entrepreneurial streak and desire for exploration while those from the North stole what we had earned through fair trade and hard work. And now those from the north are again determining the course of China, sometimes I believe, to the detriment of China. While a little out of topic from the China-Japan dispute, I just had to respond to those who deny our individual identities. Remember, we who are considered Overseas Chinese have poured billions in dollars and expertise to help lift China out of the mess that it mired itself in the early 70's. Deng Xiaopeng's maxim that to be rich is glorious (paraphrase) while new to the communist world was something that we in tho south have been striving for for centruries, even after the Northerners kicked us out of the courty for out trade and explorations. And that's probably all I have to say about that.

[Akai Bushi]

Hi, you know... MANY died when the US dropped an A-bomb or two at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People exposed within A FEW meters of ground zero was fatal. People exposed at distances of MANY kilometers later showed symptoms of aftereffects, including radiation-induced cancers.

Whoa. The power of MANY. :smoker:
You do a nice job of taking me out of contexted. My main point that followed that is that numbers to children in history books are meaningless. 30,000, 300,000 might as well be 3,000,000. The point is to teach what happened was evil and that a massacre occured and that this kind of burtalization should never occur again.

And to the person who said China has never invaded another country. China has invaded many places throughtout history. Han China invaded the Northern Korean penisula and formed Lo Yang. China invaded Formosa before it even became part of China centuries ago. Tibet was an independant country until the late 1940's early 1950's. China controlled northern Vietnam for a time during the Han dyanasty. Northern China invaded Southern China thousands of years ago to form China. Basically once China takes something they always think it's theirs for the rest of time. So what we know as China today is accually a bunch of kingdoms brought together threw conquest. China has a rich and interesting military history, you should study it before you speak. Don't be niave to think China is perfect no country is innocent. If you dig deep enough into any country's history there are many skeletons to be found.

[KhawMengLee]

You expect every one to be more miserable and big banners all around Japan saying "WE INVADED NANKING AND KILLED AND RAPED MANY CHINESE! 75 YEARS AGO". Its not that most Japanese don't know about the war, its that the American government and Japanese government has tried hard to stop Japanese interest in war. Most people just think it is boring, kendo by people who don't know about it see even kendo as some thing old fashioned and any thing related to war in general.

P.s I know American kids grow up fast but if you are this oppinionated at 16 years old I'd hate to see you at 25 or 30. When I was 16 I was thinking about the cheapest ways to get violent computer games, not hanging on some forum full of agression, fingers like wood, face as red as hell writing about some thing that happened 65 years ago.
Hm I better get doing some thing fun too, maybe visit Yasukuni my self :D. ONLY JOKING!

No we don't expect it to be so extreme but its more a case of being aware. Most of my German mates were so apologetic of the Nazis and war that I felt really uncomfortable whenever the topic was brought up. I was like...dude...chill. I don't expect great big banners or a letter of apology every month. But I think that the Government should be more sincere. I mean demanding an apology from North Korea for kidnapping a few japanese and then not bothering for the genocide of hundreds of thousands is a bit off eh?

BTW, just so there's no confusion, there ARE such people as Taiwanese just as I am Fujianese and Hakka, and darned proud of it.

Yes, it is often said the most magnificent creature in the Chinese Kingdom is the Hokkien(Fujianese). Of course the most miserable and low is the Cantonese(muahahahahahaa! Jokes!).

One of the most memorable moments I had in Japan was when this old lady, we called mama-san(she owned the local pub we went to), found out I was chinese and exclaimed "You are Chinese!? Oh, you eat dog, ya?" hahaha, I had a looooong time explaining to her that I am Malaysian chinese and don't eat fido.

[KenShi_JoB]

Personally , I don't give a sh*t to those Japanese apologies , because they don't mean anything except some tougue slash. You know why?
BECAUSE THEY STILL DON'T TEACH THEIR KIDS THE TRUTH .

You think a history text book is nothing to be serioused about?
TAKE THIS AGAIN : HISTORY OFTEN REPEAET ITSELF IN A PROCESS OF ALL MEANS.

You think Japanese spend so much money on milltary is because the treat of China owing bunch of nukes?

Name one country in the World that has been invaded by China.
Border War with India and Vietname during the mid 60s and late 70s proved
China will not invade a country even her force is greatly out ranged the enenmy.


History of war usually repeat itself because human is always full of hatred. Whether Japanese is bad or not, your attitude is dangerous too.

Many Communist Party in SE Asia were funded and armed by chinese. The reason why Chinese won't start all out war didn't simple as that. May be because it can cause a WW3 with nukes with it or may be it's easier with less resistance to make people in that country killed each others. Thai, Cambodian, Lao, Vietnam. They did not try to take over us but they support the communist party to take control our country and they will have influnce over them.

Taiwan and Tibet are part of the China since 900 years ago , part of the country. You can't denied the fact.


What happen if we can claim our country right over the other with the reason that, I owned your country for a long time now? Tibetan do fight for their freedom even today too.

[KhawMengLee]

The point is to teach what happened was evil and that a massacre occured and that this kind of burtalization should never occur again.


Agreed. Then every schoolkid should read the rape of Nanking and see the photos. Perhaps, they should get eyewitness accounts of how a bunch of soldiers cut open a pregnant woman and started to play kickball with the baby the dragged out.

Or how Unit 731 filled downed US airmen's lungs with saline fluid and then cut him open while he was alive and fully conscious to see what effects it had on his lungs. Or conducted tests on kids by giving them anthrax filled candies.

War is horrible and blight on humanity. It is right to teach them the evil of it. Maybe not so extreme as above but I think a little more info then just soft words like "many" killed and "comfort wmen" instead of sex slaves.

[KenShi_JoB]

No we don't expect it to be so extreme but its more a case of being aware. Most of my German mates were so apologetic of the Nazis and war that I felt really uncomfortable whenever the topic was brought up. I was like...dude...chill. I don't expect great big banners or a letter of apology every month. But I think that the Government should be more sincere. I mean demanding an apology from North Korea for kidnapping a few japanese and then not bothering for the genocide of hundreds of thousands is a bit off eh?


From the website akai bushi posted here, Japanese government do apologize many time.

[kanyil]

...China has invaded many places throughtout history. Han China invaded the Northern Korean penisula and formed Lo Yang. China invaded Formosa before it even became part of China centuries ago. Tibet was an independant country until the late 1940's early 1950's. China controlled northern Vietnam for a time during the Han dyanasty. Northern China invaded Southern China thousands of years ago to form China. Basically once China takes something they always think it's theirs for the rest of time. So what we know as China today is accually a bunch of kingdoms brought together threw conquest. China has a rich and interesting military history, you should study it before you speak. Don't be niave to think China is perfect no country is innocent. If you dig deep enough into any country's history there are many skeletons to be found.

Well said!

On the other hand, the guy may have a point in saying that China never invaded any country, because China will simply declare other sovereign countries to be "an inseparable part of the sovereign Chinese territory" before proceeding with the invation, so that they can deny the invasion afterwards by categorizing it as only a civil disturbance. Isn't it wonderful?:dead:

And of course any other countries trying to offer assistance is then "interfering with an internal Chinese issue and Chinese sovereignty".

[KhawMengLee]

Here's what I find puzzling:

The one man whose words inspired me for peace is Yasushi Akashi, former UN envoy.

WE LIVE IN AN AGE in which a lot of discussions and negotiations are constantly taking place between peoples and governments of different countries. However, I do not think that they constitute a genuine dialogue or heart-to-heart conversations between people belonging to different cultures and generations.

http://www.icponline.org/icp_sections/convention/conv_5/p1_01.htm

I think his words and sincerety do pluck at the strings of the heart. An I admire him for that and revere that Japan produced a such a son.

At the same time, lets look at Issei Sagawa. Who, as a student, murdered and ate a woman in France. He was saved by the his father and the japanese government where he revels in Japan as a celebrity. Now I know that Charles Manson has a cult following in the US but the difference here is that he is in jail and isn't given TV deals and published in magazines and accepted by the general public as a role model and an upstanding member of the public.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/sagawa/1.html

The man is a killer and a cannibal. And did it for his personal pleasure and now he lives a life of a celebrity?!? Whats wrong with this picture.

Take Peru's former President Alberto Fujimori. Implicated in corruption and murder and he's given asylum in Japan?!?

Making mistakes is a shame. But refusing to acknowledge mistakes and living with them as truth is a disgrace.

[mingshi]

...numbers to children in history books are meaningless. 30,000, 300,000 might as well be 3,000,000..
Interesting point. I don't know the US education system much, but over here I don't think you can promote to your secondary school if you can't tell the difference between thousands, millions and billions.

My maths aint that great but at least I wouldn't confuse 10,000 suburi with 100,000,000.
______________

We may also dig up US soldiers in Iraq torturing prisoners of war. And you can say the photos are fakes and Oh, It Happens All the Time, or I didn't do it, Get Over It.... Iraq invaded Kuwait too. Blah blah blah.

[mingshi]

Hi Meng,

Your PM box is full and I just want to say hi and ask about your HK experience!! I am back and you disappeared!! :D

Cheers,

[mingshi]

From the website akai bushi posted here, Japanese government do apologize many time.
Hi. Sorry I called someone Japanophile, and their self-esteem is completely damaged.

I apologized.

MANY times.

Yet, some people are no doubt, Japanophiles. Especially at the Japanforum website. And I am going to write books about it. The end.

[KenShi_JoB]

Hi. Sorry I called someone Japanophile, and their self-esteem is completely damaged.

I apologized.

MANY times.

Yet, some people are no doubt, Japanophiles. Especially at the Japanforum website. And I am going to write books about it. The end.

You can call me what you want Mingshi. :)

[Musha]

Charles Manson has a cult following in the US but the difference here is that he is in jail and isn't given TV deals and published in magazines and accepted by the general public as a role model and an upstanding member of the public.


A little about what I heard about Charles Manson how ever we got to that subject! :D. Charles Manson was just that a cult leader, he never actualy did any thing but his followers did. Is he even in prison now?

[KhawMengLee]

Hi Meng,

Your PM box is full and I just want to say hi and ask about your HK experience!! I am back and you disappeared!! :D

Cheers,


Don't worry. Will be back soon for work and probably for holidaze in june or july.


Yeh, been off kendo for a few months recovering from getting robbed. All healed now!

[KhawMengLee]

A little about what I heard about Charles Manson how ever we got to that subject! :D. Charles Manson was just that a cult leader, he never actualy did any thing but his followers did. Is he even in prison now?

Er...Hitler probably never shot any jews but he sure commanded the people that did to do so. Manson was a loon who wanted to wage a race war between blacks and whites. He instructed his 'family' to butcher people and then smear words like "WAR" and "PIGS" to make it seem like a hate crime done by blacks. Yes, he is in jail and rightfully so!

[Yo...osh!]

From the website akai bushi posted here, Japanese government do apologize many time.

Hi...don't want to stir too much of an apology debate but in the list you pointed out, most apologies were personal apologies, and general in nature. E.g. "express remorse for suffering inflicted on Asians".

I guess what China is looking for is a specific government to government apology directed specifically towards the Chinese people, in both oral and written form. The apology has to embody the view of the entire Japanese government, not just the view of a private individual. This is my understanding.

However, I don't think it's going to happen because such an official apology would be tantamount to accepting responsibility. i.e. paying reparations and shooting themselves in the foot in the disputed oil/fishing regions.

[Yo...osh!]

Taiwan and Tibet are part of the China since 900 years ago , part of the country. You can't denied the fact.

Hi, to supplement what kanyil in response:

From an international law perspective, the argument that Taiwan is part of China because it was 900 years ago is absolutely false.

You do not have good claim to a territory after transfering the land to another country via a peace treaty after losing a war. In 1894, Japan and China engaged in the Sino-Japanese War in which Japan defeated China. As a result, in 1895 the Ch'ing government of China signed a peace treaty known as the Treaty of Shimonoseki with Japan. Therefore, Japan acquired good title to Taiwan. China lost title to Taiwan.

When Japan lost to the allies, they signed the peace Treaty of San Francisco. The allied powers (US, Great Britain), as victors of war, had power to force Japan to dispose of her territory.

The allied power merely required Japan to "renounce" ownership of Taiwan. Therefore at this stage Taiwan belonged to the victors of war: the allied powers. China was not even a party to this treaty! Therefore there is no way the territory could be "transferred" to them.

Not being a victor of war, and not being a signatory of the subsequent peace treaty means that China did not re-acquired the territory of Taiwan after WWII.

So what is the legal status of Taiwan? ROC merely had authority over Taiwan as an agent of the allied powers. Since the agency relationship has naturally terminated through time, the true ownership of Taiwan is by its people. In this scenario international law requires that the Taiwanese people decide through referandum as who who has sovereignty over Taiwan.

My source of the below information is by a professor of International law at Fordham University. The article is entitled "One China Policy and Taiwan".

[JSchmidt]

I do agree those protestors are bring ignorant and childish , but those riots are just a sparkle of a next big event that is going to be taking place .
All those anti-Japanese demonstrations across asia has shown the faulse policies the Koyizimi gov't had chosen.


P.S. : BURN DOWN THE ''Yasukuni Shrine '' , That is like a hall of famous for all the nazi criminals.


A) The demonstrations are a convenient outlet for recent frustration with the Chinese system...Japan was kind enough to provide a good diversion, as there had been several anti-chines goverment riots in recent weeks.

B) Tha Yasukuni shrine does indeed hold a nice list of class A war crimininals...but is also a shrine for ALL of Japans war dead..

Jakob

[Wifenmummy]

It takes a while to forget and a lot longer to forgive. Japan like Germany had a good ole' time when they were on their merry expansion run and then got a taste of what they gave when the tide turned.

As someone pointed out earlier Imagine if Germany started printing books glorifying the Nazis and saying the Holocaust didn't happen.

I think the protestors where stupid and childish, but then again (as Terry Pratchett puts it) the mob's intelligence is determined by the IQ of the stupidest mob member divided by the number of people in the mob.

Respect needs to be given by both sides but I think so far Japan hasen't given any to China.

forgive me i had no idea what japan did in the war(but then war is never pretty).. thanks for the terry pratchett quote.. (that i understood) lol

[Wifenmummy]

Fortunately and unfortunately part of what defines the East Asian psyche is their strong connection to the past. The idea of holding a multigenerational grudge is not unheard of. Now recognizing that though it would follow that asking them to forgive is a difficult thing for them to do. An injury to an ancestor, even in the case of the first half of the 20th century where a direct relative may not have been affected, is an injury to oneself (a collective "ancestor" if one will...). Just as the the Chinese (and OTHER neighbours of Japan) have trouble with forgiveness, so do the general Japanese population have trouble with admitting their mistakes of the past. It defines them and their self image, their "face" if you will. Understanding this will help in understanding how difficult it is to ask all the parties to change their behaviour.
hmm should have thought more.. thats quite true..
dont most asia countires have shrines in their homes for their dead family members? or is that in the past?

[mingshi]

forgive me i had no idea what japan did in the war...
Thanks for claiming to be as innocent as a lost sheep, even though I wonder why you started posting in the FLAMES section in the first place.

Your sins are forgiven.

Ignorance is bliss.

Amen.

[Akai Bushi]

Interesting point. I don't know the US education system much, but over here I don't think you can promote to your secondary school if you can't tell the difference between thousands, millions and billions.

My maths aint that great but at least I wouldn't confuse 10,000 suburi with 100,000,000.
______________

We may also dig up US soldiers in Iraq torturing prisoners of war. And you can say the photos are fakes and Oh, It Happens All the Time, or I didn't do it, Get Over It.... Iraq invaded Kuwait too. Blah blah blah.

I'm just saying numbers are cold. Videos and really life accounts and a moral lesson are more important because when the school year is over no one is going to remember how many chinese died in Nanking whether you write it or not.

And I really don't mind if you call me a Japanophil doesn't bother me one bit, but it hurts your arguement by using fallacies. Attacking someone's character is what your doing instead of argueing the point. Maybe in addition to your wonderful Hong Kong education you should take a logic class and memorize your fallacies.

[Akai Bushi]

Hi...don't want to stir too much of an apology debate but in the list you pointed out, most apologies were personal apologies, and general in nature. E.g. "express remorse for suffering inflicted on Asians".

I guess what China is looking for is a specific government to government apology directed specifically towards the Chinese people, in both oral and written form. The apology has to embody the view of the entire Japanese government, not just the view of a private individual. This is my understanding.

However, I don't think it's going to happen because such an official apology would be tantamount to accepting responsibility. i.e. paying reparations and shooting themselves in the foot in the disputed oil/fishing regions.
If you read the whole websight I posted you'll see that Japan did apologize offically from one government to another government.

Japan accepts responsiblity.

China doesn't want the Chinese people to know how many times they've been apologized to. Japan has given reparations in large amounts to many East Asian countries.
Does Japan need to give money to individuals? In China that would go against National Socialism. In that form of government isn't paying the government the same as paying individuals?:wink:

[Akai Bushi]

http://forum.japantoday.com/m_173618/mpage_5/key_/tm.htm
Here is that website again incase you get it mixed up with another one I posted.

[KhawMengLee]

If you read the whole websight I posted you'll see that Japan did apologize offically from one government to another government.

Japan accepts responsiblity.

China doesn't want the Chinese people to know how many times they've been apologized to. Japan has given reparations in large amounts to many East Asian countries.
Does Japan need to give money to individuals? In China that would go against National Socialism. In that form of government isn't paying the government the same as paying individuals?:wink:

You know...the one thing I remember when studying journalism was the paradox of credibility on the internet. As well as being an amazing source of information (and free pornography. YAY!), the net is also full of disinformation. Just because it is written doesn't make it so.

Now I'll put it to a very simple test. Who here has actually heard, live on the news, the Japanese Government formally apologizing and acknowledging its role in the War and acknowledging the rape of Nanking? Secondly, who has heard on the news or the papers, the Japanese government actually paying reparations to the victims of slavery and rape?

Because I can tell it definately is biiiiiiiiiiig news and won't appear on page 40 among the obituaries.

In my life, moving from Malaysia, Australia, London and Hong Kong, I have not once heard a formal Japanese apology. I have not once heard a Japanese Minister stand in the Diet and announce to a world audience or even a Korean, Malaysian, Chinese, etc it was sorry. And don't say that its China cencoring the news to keep the public blind because I don't think Hong Kong, South East Asia, Australia and UK are part of a global conspiracy to wreck Japan.

I have heard though:

Of damages in cash being awarded against a Major Japanese corporation by 2 chinese slaves who worked in their mining operations during the war. And of course the Company took them right back into the court of appeals.

A group within Japan protesting that Japan should acknowledge its past and award compensation. (Funny, Japanese people demanding that their own government apologize, even thought the Diet has been doing so for ages...I guess Japan has no TV's or Newspapers eh?)

Korean protestors cutting off their fingers in front of the Japanese Embassy in Seoul to protest the wartime atrocities.

Former rape victims "Comfort Women" protesting yearly for some dignity in the form of an official apology. Now your source was from a forum. Lets try an encyclopedia.

Japan regards all World War II compensation claims to be settled, with the single exception of North Korea, with which it has not signed any treaty for war time settlement. These treaties settle all claims at the government level. However, as is the case with most treaties concerning the War, they do not cover civilian claims.

Up until 1992, the Japanese government denied any official connection to the wartime brothels. In June 1990, the Japanese government declared that they were run by private contractors. However, since 1992, when the historian Yoshimi Yoshiaki discovered incriminating documents in the archives of Japan's National Defense Agency indicating that the military was directly involved in running the brothels (by, for example, selecting the agents who recruited or coerced women into service), Japan's official position has been one of admitting "moral but not legal" responsibility. Former Japanese Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone famously stated in his memoir published in 1978 that he set up a comfort house for his troops when he was a navy lieutenant in charge of accounting.

No formal Apology yet and this basically says, " Though we may be wrong we shouldn't have to pay for our actions."


In 1995, a Japanese semi-governmental "Asia Women's Fund" was set up for atonement in the form of material compensation and to provide each surviving comfort woman with an unofficial signed apology from the prime minister. Because of their unofficial nature, many comfort women have rejected these payments and continue to seek an official apology and compensation.

Still no formal apology. Semi-government organization is waaaaaay different than the Prime Minister apologizing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women

[Akai Bushi]

Now your source was from a forum. Lets try an encyclopedia.
Look I know I sent you to a forum and I know a forum doesn't mean its hard evidence, but if you read the posts by Hermeneus you'll see that he backs up everyone of his claims. So does it really matter that I sent you to a forum if all the sources are backed up in that forum?

[KhawMengLee]

Right. Your view is that Japan is:

1) Apologetic of its past actions.

2) Has given compensation.

3) Has adequately educated its youth on the subject.

************************************************** ****

1) An apology is an acceptance of guilt and truly feeling remorse and acknowledging it.

2) Given compensation, very tricky. Giving money does not equal an apology. In Singapore, Japan at first paid compensation to the British for damage toBritish structures but nothing to the Chinese victims. They considered the matter closed.

When Singapore gained independence they finally bowed to pressure and in October 25, 1966, Japan agreed to pay $50 million in compensation, half as a grant and the other half as a loan . Note, a grant is money given but with certain criteria to fulfill. A loan has to be repaid. Its hardly, money just given with no strings attached. However, the compensation package did not come with an official apology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sook_Ching_Massacre

3) Adequately educated? Lets see...(this goes hand in hand with being genuinely apologetic)...

Lets take the subject of the Rape of Nanking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

In Japan, as far as Japanese academics are concerned, the controversy over the existence of atrocities ended in the early '90s. Both sides accept that killing did occur; however, disagreement exists over the actual numbers, which depends on the standard of inclusion of archival or anecdotal evidence, definition of the period of the massacre, as well as geographical coverage.

Okay, Japan admits it happened but cannot agree to the scale. Even though a proper tribunal has set the number at between 200,000-300,000.

Currently, no notable group, including right-wing nationalists, deny the existence of the killings and the debate has shifted mainly to the death toll, to the extent of rapes and civilian killings (as opposed to POW and suspected guerrillas) and to the appropriateness of using the word "massacre". Apologists insist that burial records from the Red Swastika Society and the Chung Shan Tang (Tsung Shan Tong) were never cross examined at the Tokyo and Nanjing trials, arguing therefore that the estimates derived from these two sets of records should be heavily discounted. They also admit that personal records of Japanese soldiers do suggest the occurrence of rapes, but insist that this does not determine the extent of rapes. Moreover, they regard personal testimony from the Chinese side to be propaganda. They also point out that there are no documented records of the rapes, unlike the burial records that exist and document the killings, and therefore argue that the assertion of mass rape is unsubstantiated. Apologists further insist that the majority of those killed were POWs and "suspected guerrillas", which they consider to be legitimate killing, so that the use of descriptive word "massacre" is inappropriate

Okay, they put forward the view that the people killed were mainly enemy combatants. And the rapes are mostly isolated.

However, within the public the debate still continues. Those downplaying the massacre have most recently rallied around a group of academic and journalists associated with the Society for the Creation of New Textbooks. Their views are often shared in publications associated with conservative, right-wing publishers such as Bungei Shunjū and Sankei Shuppan. In response, two Japanese organizations have taken the lead in publishing material detailing the massacre and collecting related documents and accounts. The Study Group on the Nanjing Incident, founded by a group of historians in 1984, has published the most books responding directly to revisionist historians; the Center for Research and Documentation on Japan's War Responsibility, founded in 1993, has published many materials in its own journal.

The Society for the Creation of New Textbooks produced history textbooks for junior high school and submitted them to the Ministry of Education. The Ministry ordered corrections in 137 places. After the corrections, the book passed the 2001 inspection. This has again caused fury from Korea and China, both sides demanding reinspection. The book was published and wrongly appeared as a best-seller, because of the systematic distribution of most of the 750,000 copies by the Society for the Creation of New Textbooks. The 2002 rate of adoption of this textbook in schools was only 0.039%.


Okay, so this view that the Nanking incident is actually overblown is accepted into schools. Yes, 0.039% may seem small but nevertheless it is a view supported by the Government. After all it is published.

Read the full article which the qoutes come from and then tell me if the way the Nanking massacre in those texts are presented, fully covers the horror during those dark days.

In October 2004, the Japanese manga comic book "Kuni ga Moeru," or "The Country is Burning" by Hiroshi Motomiya was suspended from the manga anthology Weekly Young Jump because it "depicted the Nanjing Atrocities as 'real.'" Certain Japanese politicians and civilians wanted the manga censored or removed because they claimed that the incident never occurred and there was no proof of it.

Right, so a view that the Nanking massacre never happened is allowed and sponsored. But a view that it did (as a massacre) happen is banned?!? It seems that the view is certainly warped and baised.

You tell me Koizumi apologizes and fully understands the war atrocities. And yet he cannot let the japanese public have 2 views on the subject. Its the nice whitewashed version but no-full horror massacre version. Which I think is pretty funny since Ichi the Killer which shows the nipples being sliced of a woman is a best seller.