If you don't like your country? [Archive]

Akai Bushi

18th April 2005, 02:43 AM

...My understanding is that this all erupted over the publication of a new history book for Japanese schools that makes light of a massacre of Chinese people in Manchuria...

...and it's not just China... Korea too... Check out : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4411771.stm

This is so common... in all countries... we tell our children what we want them to believe and then they have to discover the truth for themselves when they are adults (if they can be bothered!)...

Sounds like from this article that the Japanese Government has very little control of what textbooks their children use. That some local districts are the ones choosing these textbooks. I guess the only way for the Japanese National government to step in is if they reform their education system so that the National Education Ministry has more power in these matters. Of course Japan is always slow to reform its government and usually when National governments take over education as apposed to local governments education starts going down hill. In the United States when the Federal government wishes to institute something in state schools they say either do this or we'll with hold money and of course my state, California, always caves in. And we have some of the worst schools in the United States. I think 5th from the bottom out of the 50 states.

Commander

18th April 2005, 06:09 AM

Why do the Chinese hate the Japanese?

crabbi

18th April 2005, 06:21 AM

Why do the Chinese hate the Japanese?
Oops! Now you've done it!!! Just wait for the battle to commence!!!

Cheers

kanyil

18th April 2005, 08:45 AM

Oops! Now you've done it!!! Just wait for the battle to commence!!!

Cheers

hahaha, let me take the first swing by offering the short version of the story. btw, as opposed to the Chinese, Taiwanese have very mixed feeling about Japan, but we won't go into the reasons for that here. I think the entire situation is a little political as well, but as they say, "there is no smoke without fire".

The short version is that Japan invaded China sometime around WW2, and murdered, enslaved, and raped legions. The incident of the "Rape of Nanking" has ever since been used as an icon of Japanese atrocities (used in the same fashion as Auschwitz etc).

Unlike Germany, which is courageously taking responsibility for its WW2 atrocities and made a point to educate its younger generations to ensure "never again", Japan has chose to hide the entire incident from its younger generation, which is not a little like rubbing salt into wound.

The less publicized fact that the Japanese High Court has just rejected the claims of the many Chinese, Korean and Taiwanese "comfort women" (who were pressed into service as sex slaves for the Japanese occupation army during WW2) probably added fuel to the fire.

ChaShu

18th April 2005, 09:15 AM

Why do the Chinese hate the Japanese?

Whoo... I could fill a page with just some bullet points with this question. I actually have "discussions" with my wife about this sometimes (I'm Filipino-Chinese and she's Japanese). Primary among this arguement is Japan's atroceties and aggressive actions against its neighbours during the first half of the last century (not just WW2). While there have been numerous statements of regret over the years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan), part of what makes this sensitive is how long it took for a statement to be forthcoming. Also this recent publishing of textbooks contravenes a 1980 agreement that Japan would pay attention to the content regarding the period and make corrections.

I believe (IMHO) that while the government position outwards may be one of regret and reconciliation, many Japanese today do not know or actively deny Japan's negative actions against its neighbours. While in Germany, it is illegal to deny the Holocaoust (Germany is now prosecuting Ernzt Zundel for actively promoting that the holocaoust was a hoax), in Japan, it is either not illegal to deny atroceties or if it is, it is not actively prosecuted. Additionally, Japan has prominent politicians like Shintaro Ichihara who was quoted in Playboy as saying that the Nanjing Massacre "never happened" and was a "Chinese creation" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shintaro_Ishihara), and other politicians protesting a manga publishing details of the massacre because they believe that it is not true http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=1&id=315342.
Despite the apologies, the general Japanese populations does not seem to believe that these actions never happened.

Now to the present... Currently there are a few contentious events that have stirred up the pot between Japan and its neighbours.

One is a dispute over maritime territories which Japan and it's neighbours all claim as their own. Not coincidentally, there is reputedly oil beneath SOME of the said territories.
Japan is currently (and has been over the last few years) in discussions to make changes to its constitution and the fear is that they will remove the constraints placed on its military as a solely self-defence force and a renewal of military buildup. This is seen by many of its neighbours as a threat. Couple with that it's already large military budget (5th largest military spend in the world behind USA, PRChina, UK, and France (???)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces) this can seem very scary to East Asia.

Rising Japanese Neo-Nationalism ala Shintaro Ichihara and his like have begun to give Japan and the Japanese a growing reputation of racism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nationalism
Continuing visits by the Emperor to shrines honouring what is considered by many of Japan's neighbours as WW2 war criminals.
Japan's recent bid to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050417/ap_on_re_as/japan_feisty_diplomacy has also raised doubts about Japan's policy of pacifism in the region.
While these reasons do not justify the violent protests, I hope this clarifies some questions about the animosity that Japan's neighbours feel.

Wifenmummy

18th April 2005, 11:11 AM

ChaShu

18th April 2005, 12:18 PM

It suprised me hearing bout theese protests and hatred by the chinese towards the Japanese... forgive me i did ancient history at school (not modern history)
The chinese need to be more forgiving of the japanese... from what i know its not like japan had a easy time during the war or anything themselves but thats all part of it i suppose.. I think the past shouldnt be forgotten but the future and present should be more focused on....

Fortunately and unfortunately part of what defines the East Asian psyche is their strong connection to the past. The idea of holding a multigenerational grudge is not unheard of. Now recognizing that though it would follow that asking them to forgive is a difficult thing for them to do. An injury to an ancestor, even in the case of the first half of the 20th century where a direct relative may not have been affected, is an injury to oneself (a collective "ancestor" if one will...). Just as the the Chinese (and OTHER neighbours of Japan) have trouble with forgiveness, so do the general Japanese population have trouble with admitting their mistakes of the past. It defines them and their self image, their "face" if you will. Understanding this will help in understanding how difficult it is to ask all the parties to change their behaviour.

ISSAC RU

18th April 2005, 12:58 PM

Japan doesn't face what they have done to the asian countries during WWII.
In China , 23 Million People died because of the Japanese invasion.Not just only WWII , the conflicts between China and Japan started around the mid 17 century when Japanese partriots started harass the soutern coast of China.
After that , the Sino-Japanese war . ....nurmouse conflicts after entering the 20s century..!

The thing that piss most of the Asians off is that Japanese don't want to face the history truth , they rather live in their little own isolated world .

Now the Japanese want to join the Secruity council in UN , but nobody would accept them as a major power when they can't even face their own history.
116 countries in the world joined together as a organization called " Coffee Club''
to oppose to the idea of letting 1 more chair in the Secruity Council.

I am surprised when I saw most of the western history text book , it seems to me that Japanese role in the WWII only started when they attacked Pearl Harbour. That is very B.S. ...A text could go on forever talking about the mass murder of the jews but never mentioned a single word about what Japan did in WWII.

For Musha :

Hatred towards Japan is not something called " giving away the blame ''.
Do you think one day the jews going to live happly ever after with the Arabs ?
I don't think so , your prespectives are being propergandaly washed by the Japanese Media. They repeaetly show those video clips about chinese destroying Japanese embassy and shops and that makes you think Chinese hates Japanese. Chinese don't hate Japanese for them being Japanese , Chinese hate Japanese for what they have done and never apologize for it .
How come nobody in the world oppose to Germany right now ? because they admitted and apologized for what they have done .
You only be living in Japan for a short period of time , soon you will discover what kind of the people they are . If you really interested in the Japanese people , you should read a book called : The Chrysanthemum and the sword.

Japan is a very dangerous country . They spent the world 2nd highest of amount of money on Millitary( just behind U.S.A.). That doens't make sense after all for a defeated loser with the help of the Americans.

For Kanyil :

One more time , bro. There is not such word called " Taiwanese '' . If lets say I m tokyo , Do I say I am Tokyosian? Japan did a unforgivble crime to the people of taiwan , I don't understand how can those people just go to their freakin shinine and bow to those bastard criminals?

Musha

18th April 2005, 01:51 PM

Well every country in the world has done some thing bad to another country. The Romans invaded half the world and enslaved many people, the Vikings, Spanish and South America and many other countries, England also invaded half the world. The Americans almost wiped out the native Americans so if every country in the world were to appologize to every other country, that would mean every one would live in harmony with each other and there would be no more wars :D. What does it matter if some president apologises to some one else for some thing only afew old people know about.

In England alot of people still think of the war when they see a German person. And Russians are still thought of as communist. Almost every war you can think of happening at the moment is because of some thing that some other country did in the past.

So if you see some guy is from a country that had some a war with your country working in a Resutorant trust that guy because he might do it again or spit in your soup or some thing :D.

And about text books, why in England do we never learn about British colonialism? All the Africans better start burning posters of Tony Blair.

The Chinese better stop living in the past and think about there own country..

For Kanyil :

One more time , bro. There is not such word called " Taiwanese '' . If lets say I m tokyo , Do I say I am Tokyosian? Japan did a unforgivble crime to the people of taiwan , I don't understand how can those people just go to their freakin shinine and bow to those bastard criminals?

BTW my spelling is crap too but you need to think a little about your grammar ISSAC RU.

jews going to live happly ever after with the Arabs ?
think Chinese hates Japanese.
How come nobody in the world oppose to Germany right now ?
You only be living in Japan for a short period of time ,

Sounds like you have been taking grammar lessons from Ali-G or some one.

Das Jews going to live happly ever with za Arabs ya thinks does yo?
think za Chinese going to hates Japanese.

Sorry I better get off my soap box :D. This thing would be funny if for the fact it doen't stop some one like America is going to have to step in and fight a war with China and North Korea. I can see it coming in less than 10 years...Crap!

Musha

18th April 2005, 02:01 PM

Japan is a very dangerous country . They spent the world 2nd highest of amount of money on Millitary( just behind U.S.A.). That doens't make sense after all for a defeated loser with the help of the Americans.

One more thing, Japan has a large army because it is an American base in the far East. There are many American bases inside Japan and if a war does happen in the far East America will rely on Japan as a launch pad as with the Korean war.

Japan has always been passive since WW2, the people always elect a passive government and at the moment they are still trying to work out if they should let troups even leave the country. The Japanese army Jieitai (Self defence force) can't leave the country only to help with aid work..

ISSAC RU

18th April 2005, 02:15 PM

Japanese are not stupid , Don't you think they know they can't start a war or leave their country for war ? They know , but why they are spending so much money on it ? Because they will be someday , recent news. Japanese parliment is trying to pass its law of start war for its ' Self-defence ' .
Don't you see? Japanese army are tranning consistenly oversea like place such as : Iraq , Indonisia , africa and so on..what are they plans?
They are building one of the world largest transportation cruise. Why?
Having your 4th generation fighters on the air 90% of the time , why? ( U.S.A 80%)
Spending over 20 billion dollars on U.S.A.'s TMD system , why?
having more than 800 fighters consists with F-15 , F-16 , F-2 , F-14 and large tranportation plans or those P-30s , why?
With a navy of the world top-technology of oversea battle , why?

Spend over 44 billion dollars on Millitary / year and increase its amount each year by 8-10% , why?

Sometimes I ask myself , Why do a country like Japan needs a such great millitary power with it has The world most powerful country on its side ?
Because they are up to something that you never know.....

Richmond-san

18th April 2005, 02:44 PM

You guys both have some very valid points. I'm not going to pretend Like I know anything about post WW2 Japan but I believe they are going to pursue their own desings eventually, Maybe break away from the mainstream and they are just pooling their resources. As far as the Chinese hating the japanese, I don't really buy it. Do you know how many times I have been told that I must hate Arabs just because I am American??? Too many. Further more I think my own country is a fine example of the national government producing an opinion for the world that it's own people do not agree with. You have to remember that media cannot be trusted. But at the same time I am not denying what anybody has said here on this thread. Regarding the U.S. stepping in during an asian conflict, I think we could to mind our own buissness and focus on the immense problems in our own country.

Richmond-san

Musha

18th April 2005, 02:49 PM

Up to some thing? What?
In England I knew alot of people who joined the army. And the army are every where trying to get people to apply. At schools, colleges, on the streets but in Japan you hardly ever see them.

At the moment Japan's army is just doing aid work and no real fighting. But as I said, if you lived right next to one of the only agressive countries in the world to still posess nuclear weapons. Wouldn't you want to be prepared for the unexpected?

At the moment China and North Korea are said to be the only countrys that could realisticly defeat America in a war.. Thats the real problem, not stupid Japnese text book at some Junior school..

ISSAC RU

18th April 2005, 03:05 PM

If the young generations of Japan don't know the consenquences.. I think it would be troustrous.

I remember a very famous phrase :

History often repeat itself in a process of all means.

mingshi

18th April 2005, 03:33 PM

I didn't take History when I was at school - I thought the teenagers today has more knowledge into that part of World History, and after roughly reading bits here, I have proved myself wrong.

It's not a matter of how much you can remember from the book, but more about how you make some sense out of it.

First of all I am netural to the entire matter so far, despite me being Chinese and practicing a Japanese martial arts, etc.

There are a lot of aspects in the matter that are totally separated from one another. If you think "the Chinese hate the Japanese so much" has anything to do with "apologizing for the last generation"... well, I know you haven't been reading any paper, or checking news on that, and you are simply repeating what your friends is telling you over a chat.

Not sure about the "Japan aiding China" thing here - I need to see the figures and source. But I do know that there are plently of Japanese companies manufacturing goods from China and that's the way to promote economy on both sides, and is beneficial to the global community. It's has nothing to do with "I killed your parents before so here's some compensation for you". If there is really financial aid... the IMF didn't killed people in Zambia, but Zambia is $25 million in debt of the IMF - History has nothing to do with giving aid.

So, what is wrong with Japan? You should have read about some by now, but this is how I interpret the situation:-

1) Some ultra-right-wing groups are publishing textbooks for schools (although that version is not widely used) which soften the wrong doings of Imperial Japan, say, not using the word "Invasion" but rather claiming it's just a process of a growing nation, and also cancelled out the word "comfort woman" as the term is not intented for school students... which sounds like another cover-up.

The same right-wing group also publishes books about how the Rape of Nanking did not take place. They were saying the photos about the events are fake and therefore the incident was also a false claim. What would you feel if there was a German professor publishing a book saying there was no concentration camps in Auschwitz, and no gas chamber was ever built to kill the Jews?

2) The South China Sea Islands Dispute: be it the Uotsuri-jima/ Diaoyu Dao or Takeshima/ Dokdo. There are historical or even internationally-recognized documents on where the country borders are, so it is not up to Japan to just draw a line some where on the map and says, "that's mine".

3) PM Koizumi visits the Yasukuni Shrine every new year - a shrine which symbolizes Imperialism and glorifying war criminals. His act is puzzling - if he is merely paying respect to the war dead, why not go elsewhere?

Do you think the Japanese government should be more consistent about their WWII past? Assuming the average Japanese citizen is sensible, anger should of course be directed more towards the government. Unfortunately, the Chinese protestors do not seem to agree with me.

While I would support peaceful demonstration to raise awareness in the issues, riots and violence should not be tolerated. Smashing Japanese restaurants operated by locals and owned by people from Hong Kong is just ignorant. Throwing bricks at the Japanese Embassy is barbaric. Vandalizing Jusco is stupid - everyone in the shop is Chinese and they are selling Chinese products. Even my Sony mobile and Toshiba laptop has Made in China printed on them. The so-called patriotic Chinese could have smashed my stuff -but what has anger towards a irresponsible government has anything to do with my laptop??

Anger should better be used as a postive energy to promote understanding and peace. We has already witnessed how negative anger can get - from 9/11 to endless Baghdad bombing of civilians. And then you have Anti-french in Ivory Coast and even jounralists got killed. Extreme Patrotism is a dangerous thing, if it gets blind and out of control, it is not very different from terrorism.

Every country has an ugly past about invasion and such. But that has nothing to do with ignoring or being irresponsible about it - as I said one fact has to be separated from another. You are only as good as what you are. Acknowledge your part in history and all countries should work together towards a peaceful world for the future generation. Properly edcuating for your citizens (both sides) is a good starting point.

By participating in this thread, you are showing how much you know about your world, what role are you playing as a 21st Century generation to understand global social issues. If you think a simple line of "I don't understand - why get angry - get over it" is going to help, you are just being as ignorant and illogical as the protestors.

I hope I haven't wasted my lunch time today.

ISSAC RU

18th April 2005, 03:52 PM

KhawMengLee

18th April 2005, 04:10 PM

Lets see if I can sum this issue up. Take a man who has broken into your home and raped your wife/mother/sister/daughter. He gets caught, begs for mercy, apologizes and you forgive him. Later on you overhear him say to someone else that he enjoyed raping your loved one and that it wasen't rape. You hear him say, oh, she wanted it, I mean I didn't break in...it never happened...I mean the broken window, fingerprints and the bruises on her face dont't mean anything.

How would you feel?

I'm Malaysian. I can tell you that many of the older generation have not forgotten what Japan did. We have put it in the past but you must understand that China and Korea suffered on a much larger scale.

Investment, does not equal an apology or reperation. Its cheaper to manufacture in China, the investment has to do with economies of scale not redemption. Now if Japan was sincere of the issue at hand then it would formally apologize to the Comfort women and at least(small consolation as it may be) pay them some sort of compensation for being raped by up to 10-20 men daily.

Now don't brandish me an anti-japanese bigot. I don't hate Japan or Japanese people. My first love was a japanese girl(along with the first heartbreak..heh) from Kyushu and I'll never forget the place. Japanese literary greats like Eiji Yoshikawa and Soseki Natsume not to mention the years of enjoyment with Kendo show us that Japan can create ideas that inspire greater virtues among us.

But when one does wrong one must own up to one's mistakes. Just as one give's credit where it is due...critique is given when it is due.

KhawMengLee

18th April 2005, 04:22 PM

Why do the Chinese hate the Japanese?

Think-

Why do Americans hate/dislike/distrust Muslims after Sept11?

KenShi_JoB

18th April 2005, 04:23 PM

I do agree those protestors are bring ignorant and childish , but those riots are just a sparkle of a next big event that is going to be taking place .
All those anti-Japanese demonstrations across asia has shown the faulse policies the Koyizimi gov't had chosen.

P.S. : BURN DOWN THE ''Yasukuni Shrine '' , That is like a hall of famous for all the nazi criminals.

Across asia?? I only think that it's only mainly Korea and China.

If I am the Japanese government, I would prepare the armament too. China do have nuke,right? I think that's even more dangerous.

For you, yasukuni shrine is a hall of the nazi criminal, for some of them, it is a hall of their ancestor and brave soldier. Japanese nationalistic may be dangerous, but attitude like yours can cause a war too.

Akai Bushi

18th April 2005, 04:23 PM

Hmm...Where should I start so many points have been made. Many quite unknowledgable about East Asian History. And many right on the money.

Ok I guess I'll start with why Japan uses the 2nd most amount of money on its military in the world.
Japan has a very high tech. military unlike Korea and China and many of its East Asian neighbors. China has man power Japan has to make up for it with technology. Technology is very expensive. If Japan does not keep up its strength in the region it will create a power vaccum. Taiwan isn't safe without the US and Japan in the area keeping a balance with China's military might. The first chance China gets they will move on Taiwan. And there shouldn't be anything to fear from Japan firing the first shot I mean if Japan wanted to be a bully in the region they would build a nuclear missle and I mean if anyone can do it without any help it's Japan.

The point about Japanese pirates attacking China from the seventeenth century is a few centuries off. By the 17th century most of the pirates in that region were Chinese. But yes China does have a point about Japanese piracy in the 14th and 15th centuries. But are we going to bring up things 600 years ago. Talk about holding a grudge that's not very healthy.

The point about Japanese textbooks not teaching what really happened in WWII is true, but only about .1% true. Only about .1% of Jr. High Schools in Japan use that textbook that set off that spark. And it doesn't say, nothing happened in Nanking it just says many died instead of 300,000 died.

And then Japan has apologized for WWII and has given much money in recompensation to China. And please don't complain that it took too long to get an apology. We're talking about East Asia here. Good luck Tibet ever getting an apology from the Chinese government.

Koizumi visiting the Shrine to all soldiers who have died in Japanese wars since the Bakumatsu. I'm so proud of this man in the face of so much hostile protest he still visits this Shrine. Koizumi is probably the best thing that has happened to Japan since Shotoku Taishi. This is a shrine to soldiers that died for their country. True many were evil men, but many were just serving their country. Many people want to demonize Japan for having its imperialistic period one century too late. England, France, Spain, Portugal, and others had imperialistic eras. Doesn't make it right, but soldiers(children, 18 year old people that can't think for themselves, but fighting and dieing for their country) fight when their lord or country calls them.

And I've never heard of this in Germany. So if you stood on a street corner and said the Holocost never happened you can be prosecuted? I mean to say it is nuts, but to arrest the man is pretty nuts too? Doesn't Germany have freedom of speech laws?

In conclusion, what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but China needs to get over it. Japan is one of the most peaceful countries in the world. If you accually talk to a Japanese citizen war is the furthest thing from their minds. It's pretty ironic to say this, but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars. What needs to be done is both sides need to sit down and hammer this out. Both sides need to teach their students about the atrocities of war and the evil of war. China need to also teach its students not to hate Japanese people, thats just racism in its purest form.

KhawMengLee

18th April 2005, 04:30 PM

It suprised me hearing bout theese protests and hatred by the chinese towards the Japanese... forgive me i did ancient history at school (not modern history)
The chinese need to be more forgiving of the japanese... from what i know its not like japan had a easy time during the war or anything themselves but thats all part of it i suppose.. I think the past shouldnt be forgotten but the future and present should be more focused on....

It takes a while to forget and a lot longer to forgive. Japan like Germany had a good ole' time when they were on their merry expansion run and then got a taste of what they gave when the tide turned.

As someone pointed out earlier Imagine if Germany started printing books glorifying the Nazis and saying the Holocaust didn't happen.

I think the protestors where stupid and childish, but then again (as Terry Pratchett puts it) the mob's intelligence is determined by the IQ of the stupidest mob member divided by the number of people in the mob.

Respect needs to be given by both sides but I think so far Japan hasen't given any to China.

KenShi_JoB

18th April 2005, 04:41 PM

If I have better english, I would post something similar to you. Agree completely!

Hmm...Where should I start so many points have been made. Many quite unknowledgable about East Asian History. And many right on the money.

Ok I guess I'll start with why Japan uses the 2nd most amount of money on its military in the world.
Japan has a very high tech. military unlike Korea and China and many of its East Asian neighbors. China has man power Japan has to make up for it with technology. Technology is very expensive. If Japan does not keep up its strength in the region it will create a power vaccum. Taiwan isn't safe without the US and Japan in the area keeping a balance with China's military might. The first chance China gets they will move on Taiwan. And there shouldn't be anything to fear from Japan firing the first shot I mean if Japan wanted to be a bully in the region they would build a nuclear missle and I mean if anyone can do it without any help it's Japan.

The point about Japanese pirates attacking China from the seventeenth century is a few centuries off. By the 17th century most of the pirates in that region were Chinese. But yes China does have a point about Japanese piracy in the 14th and 15th centuries. But are we going to bring up things 600 years ago. Talk about holding a grudge that's not very healthy.

The point about Japanese textbooks not teaching what really happened in WWII is true, but only about .1% true. Only about .1% of Jr. High Schools in Japan use that textbook that set off that spark. And it doesn't say, nothing happened in Nanking it just says many died instead of 300,000 died.

And then Japan has apologized for WWII and has given much money in recompensation to China. And please don't complain that it took too long to get an apology. We're talking about East Asia here. Good luck Tibet ever getting an apology from the Chinese government.

Koizumi visiting the Shrine to all soldiers who have died in Japanese wars since the Bakumatsu. I'm so proud of this man in the face of so much hostile protest he still visits this Shrine. Koizumi is probably the best thing that has happened to Japan since Shotoku Taishi. This is a shrine to soldiers that died for their country. True many were evil men, but many were just serving their country. Many people want to demonize Japan for having its imperialistic period one century too late. England, France, Spain, Portugal, and others had imperialistic eras. Doesn't make it right, but soldiers(children, 18 year old people that can't think for themselves, but fighting and dieing for their country) fight when their lord or country calls them.

And I've never heard of this in Germany. So if you stood on a street corner and said the Holocost never happened you can be prosecuted? I mean to say it is nuts, but to arrest the man is pretty nuts too? Doesn't Germany have freedom of speech laws?

In conclusion, what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but China needs to get over it. Japan is one of the most peaceful countries in the world. If you accually talk to a Japanese citizen war is the furthest thing from their minds. It's pretty ironic to say this, but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars. What needs to be done is both sides need to sit down and hammer this out. Both sides need to teach their students about the atrocities of war and the evil of war. China need to also teach its students not to hate Japanese people, thats just racism in its purest form.

mingshi

18th April 2005, 05:08 PM

Only about .1% of Jr. High Schools in Japan use that textbook that set off that spark. And it doesn't say, nothing happened in Nanking it just says many died instead of 300,000 died.
Hi. That textbook is approved by Monbusho. Also the tone is "softened", as I said.

And then Japan has apologized for WWII and has given much money in recompensation to China.
Hi. I'd walk in your house, kill your entire family. And 50 years later I'd give you a billion dollars for compensation, but I'll say I haven't killed anyone in my life...

Koizumi visiting the Shrine to all soldiers who have died in Japanese wars since the Bakumatsu. I'm so proud of this man in the face of so much hostile protest he still visits this Shrine. ...True many were evil men, but many were just serving their country.
Hi. What differ Yasukuni Shrine from the rest is that it is the very shrine serving Class-A war criminals, not any of your under-18 child soldiers. Should I assume you to be the type of person who wold stand in front of Hilter and Himmler's craves and say, "wow, they did their duty and served their country well. I salute you."

The mentality of me visiting Yasukuni Shrine as a historical-cultural heritage site is completely different from a Japanese PM bowing there every year.

In conclusion, what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but China needs to get over it... It's pretty ironic to say this, but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars... blah blah blah
Hi. So I wasted my lunch time to some Japanophile.

Not only should the citizens in Japan and China be more educated about the fact. YOU have to understand what is going on in the world too. I repeat: It's not a matter of "so... get over it..."

Ignorant is worse than illiterate.

crabbi

18th April 2005, 05:18 PM

....Just wanted to say that i am learning an awful lot by following this thread...

I was brought up / educated in the UK and certainly we were not taught anything at all about South-East Asian history (or Latin American for that matter) ... in fact, as was mentioned in one of the posts above, we were taught nothing about some of the negative aspects of British Imperialism / Colonnialism / Trade...

I am sure that I am not alone in finding this a very interesting thread...

Thanks to all contributors so far...

cheers

Akai Bushi

18th April 2005, 05:50 PM

Hi. That textbook is approved by Monbusho. Also the tone is "softened", as I said.

Hi. I'd walk in your house, kill your entire family. And 50 years later I'd give you a billion dollars for compensation, but I'll say I haven't killed anyone in my life...

Hi. What differ Yasukuni Shrine from the rest is that it is the very shrine serving Class-A war criminals, not any of your under-18 child soldiers. Should I assume you to be the type of person who wold stand in front of Hilter and Himmler's craves and say, "wow, they did their duty and served their country well. I salute you."

The mentality of me visiting Yasukuni Shrine as a historical-cultural heritage site is completely different from a Japanese PM bowing there every year.

Hi. So I wasted my lunch time to some Japanophile.

Not only should the citizens in Japan and China be more educated about the fact. YOU have to understand what is going on in the world too. I repeat: It's not a matter of "so... get over it..."

Ignorant is worse than illiterate.
Sorry to waste your lunch time. Maybe you should eat instead of wasting it on someone as ignorant of world issues as myself.

What about world issues don't I understand? That Chinese are raised in a communist controlled country were the government decides what you are taught and what you are allowed to say. Where what you believe is just government propaganda. Even South Korea was an authoritarian democracy until the early ninties so much of what the adult population in South Korea believes was propaganda feed to them from a young age.

And prove to me Japanese have denied killing Chinese. Japanese Prime Minisiters have apologized many times in the last thirty years for the terrible atrocities against Korea, China, and many other countries. No apology is ever going to be enough.
Here is alittle timeline of apologies throughout history. Not just Japan.
http://reserve.mg2.org/apologies.htm

This word Japanophile. It is used so often when someone has a view point that supports Japan and they're not of Japanese birth. So if I supported the Chinese in this debate then I guess I would be a Sinophil. So suddenly I'm not allowed to have my own legitimate view point because I'm a Japanophil. " Don't listen to him he is a Japanophil. He must be an idiot to defend Japan."

Who is to say Koizumi is paying respect to the War Criminals and not the 18 year olds. It probably would be better if the war criminals were removed, but Yasukuni Jinja is the national shrine dedicated to those that have fought and died for Japan over the last 150 years and I will continue to support Koizumi. You are living in Hong Kong right, if China drafted you at 18 and sent you to Tibet to kill some monks I'm pretty sure you'd do it. People change their principles pretty quick at gun point.

And I didn't JUST say so get over it. I said it will take reeducation of Chinese and Japanese students. I mean is throwing bricks at an embassy the correct way of solving problems. These aren't protestors their bloody rioters.
And if neither side wants to sit down an talk this out maybe it would be better if Japan just left China. I mean then we'll see how both countries really need each other.

Musha

18th April 2005, 06:10 PM

kanyil

18th April 2005, 07:56 PM

First of all I am neutral to the matter. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, and I am entitled to mine since my internet is not censored. :D

Japan is a very dangerous country . They spent the world 2nd highest of amount of money on Millitary( just behind U.S.A.). That doens't make sense after all for a defeated loser with the help of the Americans.

Chinese don't hate Japanese for them being Japanese , Chinese hate Japanese for what they have done and never apologize for it .

For Kanyil :

One more time , bro. There is not such word called " Taiwanese '' . If lets say I m tokyo , Do I say I am Tokyosian? Japan did a unforgivble crime to the people of taiwan , I don't understand how can those people just go to their freakin shinine and bow to those bastard criminals?

Spend over 44 billion dollars on Millitary / year and increase its amount each year by 8-10% , why?

Right, and I suppose the PRC doesn't spend a lot of money on its military or act aggressively towards its neighbors? You claim Taiwan and China are family, yet aim 700+ missiles at us? Does that "make sense after all" for a supposed family member? Or is that what happens in a normal Chinese household?

I agree with you on the Chinese doesn't hate Japanese for being Japanese, etc, etc bit.

Taiwan has mixed feelings about Japan because we used to one of their colony, and admittedly, they did a lot for the island's infrastructure (if only for their own reasons). They had also treated us harshly, and despite the politics, most Taiwanese does identify some sort of kinship with the Chinese, and hence feel aggrieved by WW2 Japanese atrocities.

So is there no such a thing as the Shanghainese? Cantonese? Portuguese? Japanese? Vietnamese?

One more time, bro, the Taiwanese has always been the Taiwanese, and no amount of propaganda or nationalist sentiments will change that. Although knowing the Taiwanese, treating us fairly and temping us with opportunities to share in China's new found wealth may very well do what your missiles cannot do. If anything, the Taiwanese are pragmatic entrepreneurs, and everything comes after business. As Paul Keating has said once in relation to the China/Taiwan issue, "never come between a Taiwanese business man and a bucket of money".

The Taiwanese bow to the Yasukuni shrine? You must be talking about the isolated incident of this one particular parliamentarian from Taiwan Federation Party, headed by the Kyoto University educated ex-president Lee Teng-Hui.

Be reassured that they DO NOT represent the mainstream view of the Taiwanese (he's copped ALOT of flak ever since the incident). Although his argument is that he was there to pay homage to the 23,000 Taiwanese dead memorialized by the shrine, conscripted into battle by the Japanese during WW2. bollocks I say, but at least he's democratically elected, and may be deposed in a similar fashion when the time comes.

The last bit on increasing military spending may be also applicable to the PRC.

…The Americans almost wiped out the native Americans so if every country in the world were to appologize to every other country, that would mean every one would live in harmony with each other and there would be no more wars . What does it matter if some president apologises to some one else for some thing only afew old people know about…All the Africans better start burning posters of Tony Blair.

I believe your argument to be unsustainable. Size matters mate. The US does not sit next to a Cherokee Nation of 1.6 billion and armed to the teeth. Australia does not sit next to a nuclear-powered Aborigine tribe of 1.6 billion. Just wait for the day when the UK finds it self next to an ultra-nationalistic Zulu tribe of 1.6 billion, and Blair may begin to see things differently. :D

Hey man, a wrong is a wrong. An apology means a lot if spoken with sincerity, and that's when the healing/recovery can begin.

Japanese literary greats like Eiji Yoshikawa and Soseki Natsume not to mention the years of enjoyment with Kendo show us that Japan can create ideas that inspire greater virtues among us.

But when one does wrong one must own up to one's mistakes. Just as one give's credit where it is due...critique is given when it is due.

Why do Americans hate/dislike/distrust Muslims after Sept11?

Agreed.

Hi. I'd walk in your house, kill your entire family. And 50 years later I'd give you a billion dollars for compensation, but I'll say I haven't killed anyone in my life...

Every country has an ugly past about invasion and such. But that has nothing to do with ignoring or being irresponsible about it - as I said one fact has to be separated from another. You are only as good as what you are. Acknowledge your part in history and all countries should work together towards a peaceful world for the future generation. Properly edcuating for your citizens (both sides) is a good starting point.

Fair enough. Except in this case Japan's gift weren't all that much. Much of the investment in China arose out of entrepreneurship, not a sense of remorse.

Agreed.

Musha

18th April 2005, 08:40 PM

So you mean Kanyil that its OK to bo bad things to small countrys but not big ones with lots of power?

This thread is getting dry now anyway. See what the Chinese and Japanese government has to say.

KenShi_JoB

18th April 2005, 08:51 PM

Yo...osh!

18th April 2005, 08:59 PM

KenShi_JoB

18th April 2005, 09:27 PM

I agree with Kanyil.

However I need to clarify in this forum that the Japanese government has never OFFICIALLY apologized to the Chinese for the atrocities of WWII. Neither have they OFFICIALLY apologised to the comfort women of China, Korea and Taiwan.

In 1998, the Japanese PM did aplogize for the occupation of Korea.

I don't condone the violent actions of the Chinese recently, and I think people should forgive and move on (as I have). However, unless the Japanese officially apologize, they are hard pressed to claim the higher moral ground. It would only take a press-conference and 5 minutes.

October 23, 1985: In an address to the United Nations, Japanese Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone apologizes for Japan?s role in World War II.

January 18, 1992: Japanese Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa apologizes for Japan?s use of "comfort women."

October 23, 1992: During a royal visit to China, Japanese Emperor Akihito expresses his sorrow for Japan?s wartime abuses

August 23, 1993: Japanese Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa uses his first parliamentary policy address to convey "a feeling of deep remorse and apologies for the fact that our country?s past acts of aggression and colonial rule caused unbearable suffering and sorrow for so many people."

September 20, 1993: Japanese Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa apologizes for suffering caused by Japan in World War II.

November 6, 1993: In South Korea, Japanese Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa apologizes to South Korean President Kim Young Sam for Japan?s wartime actions.

August 15, 1994: Japanese Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama apologizes for the suffering caused by Imperial Japan and concedes that other Asians suffered "tragic sacrifices beyond description."

June 9, 1995: The lower house of the Japanese Diet expresses "deep remorse" for the suffering inflicted on Asians and others in World War II.

July, 1995: Japanese Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama apologizes to the roughly 200,000 women who were put into brothels by Japanese forces to serve as sex slaves or "comfort women" and sets up a private "Asian Women?s Fund" to deal with reparations. The fund is "an expression on the part of the people of Japan to these women."

August 15, 1995: On the 50th anniversary of Japan?s surrender, Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama issues a statement of "heartfelt apologies" for Japan?s aggression. On the same date as Murayama?s statement, the National Diet adopts a "Resolution to Renew the Determination for Peace on the Basis of Lessons Learned from History."

December, 1996: Japanese Prime Minister Ryutara Hashimoto offers a letter of apology and monetary reparations to 500 survivors of the 200,000 "comfort women," but only six accept.

April 22, 1998: South Korean President Kim Dae Woo announces that the South Korean government will end its efforts to gain official compensation from the Japanese government for "comfort women" but will still seek an official apology and will not prevent individuals from seeking compensation.

April 27, 1998: A Japanese court dismisses claims from Korean "comfort women" for an official apology and compensation, saying that even though the women had suffered greatly, the Japanese government was under no legal obligation to provide either an apology or compensation.

October, 1998: Japanese Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi gives visiting South Korean President Kim Dae Jung a written statement saying that Japan "expressed deep remorse and extended a heartfelt apology" for inflicting "heavy damage and pain" on Koreans.

October 15, 2000: At a meeting in Tokyo, Chinese Prime Minister Zhu Rongji says China still feels that Japan has never properly apologized for its war atrocities but says it is Japan?s problem to decide whether and how to atone for its past.

May 24, 2001: Japan apologizes for forcing lepers to live in isolation decades after cures were available and agrees to pay $15 million to plaintiffs who successfully challenged laws that isolated them.

October 8, 2001: Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi apologizes and expresses condolences in China for those Chinese who lost their lives in World War II.

http://reserve.mg2.org/apologies.htm

Some of these information seem conflict each other though.

Musha

18th April 2005, 09:36 PM

Was just thinking. Does China have a monument and memorial day for its war dead? If Koizumi went to Yasukuni jinja but refused to go to a Chinese war dead memorial day he was invited to then that would be a problem but if they never held one or never asked him or any one else, then whats to do?

mingshi

18th April 2005, 10:49 PM

If it was simply a gesture of respect of the war dead - there is A-bomb ruin remains in Hiroshima.

Is the philosophy and the act of paying respect for ancestors hard for westerners to understand?

FYI Hong Kong was a British Colony for 99 years until 1999. Mainland Chinese education has nothing to do with me, besides I have cable and internet to gather my news source. As I said, don't mix up your facts and one matter should be separated from another. Coloninalism is one thing, massacre is another. If the Chinese government "drafted me at 18 to go to Tibet...yadda yadda", I'm bloody sure I will be shot because I am not the type of person who will "change their principles pretty quick at gun point".

According to Mingshism, I am a goddamned goddess, and I am entitled to my religious rights. Don't read if you don't like my post.

Modern Japan has been forgiven. Imperial Japan should not forgotten. History cannot be rewritten.

Last but not least, for the Japanophiles out there, it is mainly due to that quote "but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars" - as if Japan has suddenly become the model nation, the ultimate peace, the heaven, and nirvana. Sorry for getting you all upset and crying for your entire afternoon. I apologized. Now move on and get over it.

KhawMengLee

18th April 2005, 11:06 PM

In conclusion, what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but China needs to get over it.

Yes, China has gotten over it. Writing a book that whitewashes war crimes is a sure way of stirring trouble up again.

Japan is one of the most peaceful countries in the world. If you accually talk to a Japanese citizen war is the furthest thing from their minds.

Er, if you talk to an avarage Joe/jane from the states I think war would be the last thing on his/her mind too.

It's pretty ironic to say this, but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars.

You know, that has got to be one of the stupidest things I have heard in a looooooong time. Might as well say, hey, if we allow child porn and rape to be shown its fine so long as no pubes are seen. Or Hey, sexual harrasment in the workplace is fine. Really, dude...

Your is as idiotic as saying lets all be like the americans and we'll have no war.

You should have just gone for compassion and mutual respect.

KhawMengLee

18th April 2005, 11:45 PM

What about world issues don't I understand? That Chinese are raised in a communist controlled country were the government decides what you are taught and what you are allowed to say. Where what you believe is just government propaganda. Even South Korea was an authoritarian democracy until the early ninties so much of what the adult population in South Korea believes was propaganda feed to them from a young age.

.

Er...I think you're giving too little credit to China. They are developing at an alarming rate. I work there and believe me, in 10-15 years time they won't need us because they will have learnt enough to be self sufficient in terms of manufacturing and trade.

All those luxury goods electronic goods we enjoy will be made there by Chinese brands.

To think that China is some Stalinist state where a turnip is the hight of one's purchasing power in the supermarket would seriously be ignorant.

England and France never apologize to Thailand too, for what they did in their colonialism. I doubt their children today even study about their evil deed with Thailand (but Thailand never became their colony, thanks to my ancestor). They never apologize. Call me ignorant all you want Mingshi, but my opinion still be "It's the way of the world, SO... GET OVER IT...". I state my opinion politely and you come and call the others "Japanophile" , "Ignorant". It's ok if you have a different opinion, but if you can not take that people can think differently than you, you should go have lunch instead of attacking others.

Are you god? Why do people that do not think the same way as you have to be wrong and ignorant? May be people like us can not make the world better, but people with hostile attitude like you are the cause of every war.

Yasukuni Shrine doesnot contain only class-A criminal, it's a shrine for all Japanese soldier died since meiji restoration.

So, as a Japanophile, I think China is more a treat to world peace than Japan.

Its a debate dude. Passions are bound to fly.

I'm Malaysian and we fought the japanese in WWII. We lost good people and suffered because we stood up for our rights. You must understand that China and Korea, like Malaysia, fought. And in turn were brutalized.

Remember, Thailand claimed neutrality during the war and was largely pro-japanese ( Mostly due to Wanitto's influence on Prime Minister Phibun). As a result Thailand allowed the japanese forces to walk thru to the borders into the back yard of many countries. Apart from members of the resistance I doubt most thais truly understand what it was the countries that fought suffered.

My family went through a hell of a lot more and lost a lot of people and it shows them no respect when we someone says "Oh, get over it." and has not had to go through what they suffered.

I think Mingshi is trying to point out that some people have a romantisized view of Japan. A land of Samurai and ninjas and Hello Kitty without realising that like every other culture and country it has both its charm and shockers. What she's trying to do is make you see that there is a bigger picture at hand.

Last but not least, for the Japanophiles out there, it is mainly due to that quote "but maybe if we were all alot more like the Japanese are now the world would have alot fewer wars" - as if Japan has suddenly become the model nation, the ultimate peace, the heaven, and nirvana. Sorry for getting you all upset and crying for your entire afternoon. I apologized. Now move on and get over it.

Mingshi doesn't pull punches boys n girls. Just like her kendo ;) Hello Mingshi! Long time no see! Honestly, What a post to get stuck into after a 6month kendo hiatus!

KhawMengLee

18th April 2005, 11:57 PM

About Yasukuni. That shrine is dedicated to all the war dead over Japan's history. There are many war memorials in England and what if some one said, "Its bad to go there every remembrance day and the people who died for there country when at war do not deserve any respect."

I haven't been there my self so I don't know, but I wouldn't have thought that inside it only said this shrine is for Hideki Tojyo and the war criminals charged at the Tokyo war trials.

And Koizumi is damed if he does and damed if he don't' go to Yasukuni-jinja. The Japanese people would think he was soft if he listend to the Chinese and Chinese think he was supportive of the war if he goes...

God I love debate! Rowr!!!

Er...Germany's war memorials do not enshrine the bodies of Hitler or Himmler or Dirlewanger. I think the world would have the same reaction as China if it did and Schroder(oops if the spelling is wrong) honored it every year.

In a 1000 years, who cares? People remember King Richard as a hero. 1000 years ago he was a bastard to the muslims. The thing is...the horro of WWII is still close to our hearts and minds.

Akai Bushi

19th April 2005, 12:40 AM

Look I'm not saying Japanese are perfect I'm just saying that they are less likely to start a war than alot of other countries or push their weight around.

And I haven't understated China's achievements. On the first page I stated China has grown up again to become the 6th largest economy and a military power. In addition no one can deny the great contributions of the China's culture to art, science, liturature, philosophy, and many other things. I just don't share the view point that China is being all too rational at this point about Japan's past. I agree what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but we shouldn't condemn Japan forever.

KenShi_JoB

19th April 2005, 12:50 AM

I know Japan are no Hello Kitty land, but I really think Japan is quiet peaceful country today. I think China is more treat to the world peace. It's just my personal opinion. I have no problem if people have different point of view.

and sorry KhawMengLee, I am really sorry. I forget that how it sound like to say "get over it" to suffering people. Thank you for remind me that.

I am not that naive, I done my part on military service, I once work to feed myself in the financial field, one of the dirtiest sectors in Corperate Thailand. No one needs to treat me as a day-dream kid.

Yes, my country are not much suffering from Japanese in WW2, more from the bombs from USA on Bangkok. but I do understand the war than you think, my family are all (except me) military officers even my sister. My family past through vietnam war, communist rebelion in the border of Lao and Malaysia,etc. It's really made me think that if we keep holding a grudge to our former enemy, it will not solve the problem and only lead to another war. Every country war history do contain ugly story. Chinese Red army have many terrible deed against their own people who are against communist, some US army do rape and murder vietnamese girls, many Europian country do evil thing during their colonialism. Most of victims are not apologized. but if we cannot compromise, it will only result in global conflict, racist, etc.

Yes, I can not expect people to react in a polite way all the time, but I hope that a fellow kendoka can argue in a more polite way without calling each other "Japanophile" "Ignorant" "Idiot". No one know everyting, no one is perfect.

Light Samurai

19th April 2005, 12:55 AM

Hey, kenshi Job, just wanted to compliment you on how good your english is :) Sorry, for this not having not to do with the topic.

KhawMengLee

19th April 2005, 12:57 AM

I agree what Japan did in WWII was wrong, but we shouldn't condemn Japan forever.

Of course not. I've got a lot of good buddies from the land of the rising sun and I'd like to think that if we can be friends so can the rest of the world setting the past aside. Its just a few points of reconciliation and respect that needs to be cleared.

I'd like to think that when we sit over a few drinks, the situation is simplified with drunken stupor and we can all collapse in drunken revelry. After a few bottles of sake we all speak the same language;)

Musha

19th April 2005, 01:24 AM

Nice post Job :wink:.

ChaShu

19th April 2005, 06:46 AM

And I've never heard of this in Germany. So if you stood on a street corner and said the Holocost never happened you can be prosecuted? I mean to say it is nuts, but to arrest the man is pretty nuts too? Doesn't Germany have freedom of speech laws?

Despite freedom of speech to a certain degree, you can be charged with "incitement of the masses (Volksverhetzung, offence in Germany including Holocaust denial)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%FCndel This, I believe is one way which the German government is showing commitment to its remorse at its WW2 actions in an officially legislated capacity. While we can recognise that various Japanese officials have made statements of remorse regarding its WW2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan), the contentiousness may stem from the lack of official legislated actions such as demonstrated by the Germans. Also, having lived amongst a relatively Pan-European community while studying in Spain, the Germans seemed to be more in touch with their past and expressed a greater remorse, while I believe the general Japanese population seems to either lack the knowledge or would rather believe in the Japanese nationalist agenda of refusal and denial. My wife explained it this way, if they faced up to the past as a nation, they would lose face.

ZealUK

19th April 2005, 07:35 AM

I'm surprised to see such a sycophantic defence of the Japanese from some people on here. The issue is not what has been done in the past, it is the acceptance of these deeds in the present so that both nations can move on into the future with a better relationship.

Its ironic that the Communist government in China would most likely not have gained power if Japan had not invaded Manchuria. Chag Kai Shek and his Guomintang army were marginalised by Mao Tse Tung and his revolutionaries for not being able to hold off the Japanese threat in Nanking. Mao saw that the common man was absolutely opposed to the Japanese invaders and resentful of the Guomintang, and used this to his advantage when he took it upon himself to sieze control of the country, culminating in the formation of a communist government over mainland China in 1949.

The Japanese seem to have a knack for annoying their neighbours. The recent news about South Korean sex slaves receiving absolutely no reparations from the Japanese government is scandalous. The 'incident' in Nanking needs to be explained properly in a realistic historical context so that both nations can foster better relations. Whether the Chinese government will come to its people and apologise for the tragedy in Tiannemen Square and the Cultural Revolution is another issue entirely.

Sa Mu

19th April 2005, 07:59 AM

I think most of us had got over it after all my grandfather was a Chinese POW of the Imperial Japanese army in Malaysia and I married a Japanese woman without any complaints from my family, and my father was an English POW of the Communist Chinese Army in Korea and he married a Chinese woman. So no worries.
I think the thing that is getting everyones backs up at the moment is the Japanese Goverment allowing this book to be used and not saying anything against it. Like someone already said: can you imagine the reaction if the German Gov. allowed schools to use books saying that only 'some Jews died in the war'. They might lose face, but if they are interested in long term peace and trade alliances in the east they need to get over themselves and the fact they lost the war. I mean how bad is it to put in a book 'look we lost the war because our Imperialist ambition outgrew our ability and we ended up doing alot of really bad things in the process'.
It's not about holding a grudge, it's about not rubbing your neighbour up the wrong way.

Paikea

19th April 2005, 08:26 AM

Perhaps I missed it in an earlier post, but do any of you think that this has much more to do with blocking the admission of Japan to the UN Security Council than it does with a deep-seated need to get a properly framed statement of apology?

China does not stone embassies and allow public displays such as this without carefully planned, strategic motivation. This isn't about history and hurt feelings - it's about power.

Akai Bushi

19th April 2005, 10:54 AM

KenShi_JoB

19th April 2005, 11:30 AM

bullet08

19th April 2005, 12:08 PM

http://forum.japantoday.com/m_173618/mpage_5/key_/tm.htm
Read this forum. It will answer many of your questions about relations between China and Japan and Korea and Japan conserning WWII.

And your twisting the words of the textbook. It didn't say some people died. It said "many died." The claim by the people publishing the book is that no one has a real number of how many died. It's probably around 300,000, but no one can prove it. But it is true that many died, though they probably should have made it more eye opening by saying hundreds of thousands died in the Nanking Massacre. And I guess another point to be made is that even if you put 300,000 in the textbook would it really matter. Since when do Jr. High School students memorize how many causalties there were in a war. What would be the point. The evil of it all is the main thing that should be emphasised.

some how.. 6 million jews.. that number is stuck in my head. not really sure why.

personally i think this 'history book' thing is just a tip of the iceberg.. i believe that red china has other things on the agenda.

i'm a korean.. i understand all this 'relationship' between japan/korea.. japan/china.. but this last one about 'history book' smells funny... as in it's almost too well 'organized' on china's part.

pete

ISSAC RU

19th April 2005, 12:09 PM

For Musha :

As a foreigner like you , you do not understand the deep and mixed feelings that NorthEast Asia people have experienced. What Japan did was very simple if you putted this way :

Japan : I am apologzing for what Japan did in the WWII.

(After 10 min , Mr.Koyizimi took a train to the shrine and continue his work of saluting to those Tojo bastards )

The Shrine is not some simple shrine you picked up from Kyoto , It is a hall of fame for those War Criminials and Invaders all the way from the late 19century to the end of the WWII .

Some Japanese said " we had war with the americans 50 years ago , how come americans forgave us and the Chinese and Koreans won't ''
I think your intellgent is good enough to figure this out.

If some barbarian state invaded your country 50 years ago and killed more than 30 million people in your country and still denied the fact . What would you think ?

Personally , I don't give a sh*t to those Japanese apologies , because they don't mean anything except some tougue slash. You know why?
BECAUSE THEY STILL DON'T TEACH THEIR KIDS THE TRUTH .

You think a history text book is nothing to be serioused about?
TAKE THIS AGAIN : HISTORY OFTEN REPEAET ITSELF IN A PROCESS OF ALL MEANS.

You think Japanese spend so much money on milltary is because the treat of China owing bunch of nukes?

Name one country in the World that has been invaded by China.
Border War with India and Vietname during the mid 60s and late 70s proved
China will not invade a country even her force is greatly out ranged the enenmy.
I know you want to say Tibet and Taiwan , here is the thing :

Taiwan and Tibet are part of the China since 900 years ago , part of the country. You can't denied the fact.

Finally , I just want to say . You have been propangandaly washed by the Japanese media and your little Japanese wanna-be mind.

kanyil

19th April 2005, 12:54 PM

In case any of our Japanese friends are reading this, I think most of us have gotten over this mess, and we are just debating for the fun of it, right? (at least I am). :D

So you mean Kanyil that its OK to bo bad things to small countrys but not big ones with lots of power?

Morally it may sound fishy, but in real life? YES. If Taiwan's population was 1.6 billion strong and nuclear-powered then China would think twice before claiming us as their "sovereign territory" without first consulting our consensus.

Taiwan and Tibet are part of the China since 900 years ago , part of the country. You can't denied the fact.

*cough*cough* Dutch colonization, *cough*cough* Spanish?/Portuguese? Colonization *cough*cough* British occupation (yes, not widely known), *cough*cough* Japanese colonization. When it was supposedly "taken-back" to the fold from the Dutch it was then promptly occupied by a rebel, Cheng, Cheng-Kung. (and people wonder why our politicians are so unruly). :D

mingshi

19th April 2005, 01:36 PM

... And I guess another point to be made is that even if you put 300,000 in the textbook would it really matter.
Hi, you know... MANY died when the US dropped an A-bomb or two at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People exposed within A FEW meters of ground zero was fatal. People exposed at distances of MANY kilometers later showed symptoms of aftereffects, including radiation-induced cancers.

Whoa. The power of MANY. :smoker:

Musha

19th April 2005, 01:55 PM

ISSAC RU, I understand being here in Japan is that Japanese people are too busy trying to get home from work at 11pm before the last train to see there family or drink with friends. And school kids too busy with exams and kendo and stuff to be worried about what happened 70 or so years ago.

You expect every one to be more miserable and big banners all around Japan saying "WE INVADED NANKING AND KILLED AND RAPED MANY CHINESE! 75 YEARS AGO". Its not that most Japanese don't know about the war, its that the American government and Japanese government has tried hard to stop Japanese interest in war. Most people just think it is boring, kendo by people who don't know about it see even kendo as some thing old fashioned and any thing related to war in general.

P.s I know American kids grow up fast but if you are this oppinionated at 16 years old I'd hate to see you at 25 or 30. When I was 16 I was thinking about the cheapest ways to get violent computer games, not hanging on some forum full of agression, fingers like wood, face as red as hell writing about some thing that happened 65 years ago.
Hm I better get doing some thing fun too, maybe visit Yasukuni my self :D. ONLY JOKING!

ChaShu

19th April 2005, 02:06 PM

BTW, just so there's no confusion, there ARE such people as Taiwanese just as I am Fujianese and Hakka, and darned proud of it. While many Northern Chinese would have you believe that there is one homogenous "Chinese" or Han ethnicity or culture, there is not. For many centuries during Imperial China, we in the south have been marginalized and criminalized for our entrepreneurial streak and desire for exploration while those from the North stole what we had earned through fair trade and hard work. And now those from the north are again determining the course of China, sometimes I believe, to the detriment of China. While a little out of topic from the China-Japan dispute, I just had to respond to those who deny our individual identities. Remember, we who are considered Overseas Chinese have poured billions in dollars and expertise to help lift China out of the mess that it mired itself in the early 70's. Deng Xiaopeng's maxim that to be rich is glorious (paraphrase) while new to the communist world was something that we in tho south have been striving for for centruries, even after the Northerners kicked us out of the courty for out trade and explorations. And that's probably all I have to say about that.

Akai Bushi

19th April 2005, 02:54 PM

Hi, you know... MANY died when the US dropped an A-bomb or two at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People exposed within A FEW meters of ground zero was fatal. People exposed at distances of MANY kilometers later showed symptoms of aftereffects, including radiation-induced cancers.

Whoa. The power of MANY. :smoker:
You do a nice job of taking me out of contexted. My main point that followed that is that numbers to children in history books are meaningless. 30,000, 300,000 might as well be 3,000,000. The point is to teach what happened was evil and that a massacre occured and that this kind of burtalization should never occur again.

And to the person who said China has never invaded another country. China has invaded many places throughtout history. Han China invaded the Northern Korean penisula and formed Lo Yang. China invaded Formosa before it even became part of China centuries ago. Tibet was an independant country until the late 1940's early 1950's. China controlled northern Vietnam for a time during the Han dyanasty. Northern China invaded Southern China thousands of years ago to form China. Basically once China takes something they always think it's theirs for the rest of time. So what we know as China today is accually a bunch of kingdoms brought together threw conquest. China has a rich and interesting military history, you should study it before you speak. Don't be niave to think China is perfect no country is innocent. If you dig deep enough into any country's history there are many skeletons to be found.

KhawMengLee

19th April 2005, 03:16 PM

You expect every one to be more miserable and big banners all around Japan saying "WE INVADED NANKING AND KILLED AND RAPED MANY CHINESE! 75 YEARS AGO". Its not that most Japanese don't know about the war, its that the American government and Japanese government has tried hard to stop Japanese interest in war. Most people just think it is boring, kendo by people who don't know about it see even kendo as some thing old fashioned and any thing related to war in general.

P.s I know American kids grow up fast but if you are this oppinionated at 16 years old I'd hate to see you at 25 or 30. When I was 16 I was thinking about the cheapest ways to get violent computer games, not hanging on some forum full of agression, fingers like wood, face as red as hell writing about some thing that happened 65 years ago.
Hm I better get doing some thing fun too, maybe visit Yasukuni my self :D. ONLY JOKING!

No we don't expect it to be so extreme but its more a case of being aware. Most of my German mates were so apologetic of the Nazis and war that I felt really uncomfortable whenever the topic was brought up. I was like...dude...chill. I don't expect great big banners or a letter of apology every month. But I think that the Government should be more sincere. I mean demanding an apology from North Korea for kidnapping a few japanese and then not bothering for the genocide of hundreds of thousands is a bit off eh?

BTW, just so there's no confusion, there ARE such people as Taiwanese just as I am Fujianese and Hakka, and darned proud of it.

Yes, it is often said the most magnificent creature in the Chinese Kingdom is the Hokkien(Fujianese). Of course the most miserable and low is the Cantonese(muahahahahahaa! Jokes!).

One of the most memorable moments I had in Japan was when this old lady, we called mama-san(she owned the local pub we went to), found out I was chinese and exclaimed "You are Chinese!? Oh, you eat dog, ya?" hahaha, I had a looooong time explaining to her that I am Malaysian chinese and don't eat fido.

KenShi_JoB

19th April 2005, 03:21 PM

Personally , I don't give a sh*t to those Japanese apologies , because they don't mean anything except some tougue slash. You know why?
BECAUSE THEY STILL DON'T TEACH THEIR KIDS THE TRUTH .

You think a history text book is nothing to be serioused about?
TAKE THIS AGAIN : HISTORY OFTEN REPEAET ITSELF IN A PROCESS OF ALL MEANS.

You think Japanese spend so much money on milltary is because the treat of China owing bunch of nukes?

Name one country in the World that has been invaded by China.
Border War with India and Vietname during the mid 60s and late 70s proved
China will not invade a country even her force is greatly out ranged the enenmy.

History of war usually repeat itself because human is always full of hatred. Whether Japanese is bad or not, your attitude is dangerous too.

Many Communist Party in SE Asia were funded and armed by chinese. The reason why Chinese won't start all out war didn't simple as that. May be because it can cause a WW3 with nukes with it or may be it's easier with less resistance to make people in that country killed each others. Thai, Cambodian, Lao, Vietnam. They did not try to take over us but they support the communist party to take control our country and they will have influnce over them.

Taiwan and Tibet are part of the China since 900 years ago , part of the country. You can't denied the fact.

What happen if we can claim our country right over the other with the reason that, I owned your country for a long time now? Tibetan do fight for their freedom even today too.

KhawMengLee

19th April 2005, 03:25 PM

The point is to teach what happened was evil and that a massacre occured and that this kind of burtalization should never occur again.

Agreed. Then every schoolkid should read the rape of Nanking and see the photos. Perhaps, they should get eyewitness accounts of how a bunch of soldiers cut open a pregnant woman and started to play kickball with the baby the dragged out.

Or how Unit 731 filled downed US airmen's lungs with saline fluid and then cut him open while he was alive and fully conscious to see what effects it had on his lungs. Or conducted tests on kids by giving them anthrax filled candies.

War is horrible and blight on humanity. It is right to teach them the evil of it. Maybe not so extreme as above but I think a little more info then just soft words like "many" killed and "comfort wmen" instead of sex slaves.

KenShi_JoB

19th April 2005, 03:32 PM

No we don't expect it to be so extreme but its more a case of being aware. Most of my German mates were so apologetic of the Nazis and war that I felt really uncomfortable whenever the topic was brought up. I was like...dude...chill. I don't expect great big banners or a letter of apology every month. But I think that the Government should be more sincere. I mean demanding an apology from North Korea for kidnapping a few japanese and then not bothering for the genocide of hundreds of thousands is a bit off eh?

From the website akai bushi posted here, Japanese government do apologize many time.

kanyil

19th April 2005, 03:40 PM

...China has invaded many places throughtout history. Han China invaded the Northern Korean penisula and formed Lo Yang. China invaded Formosa before it even became part of China centuries ago. Tibet was an independant country until the late 1940's early 1950's. China controlled northern Vietnam for a time during the Han dyanasty. Northern China invaded Southern China thousands of years ago to form China. Basically once China takes something they always think it's theirs for the rest of time. So what we know as China today is accually a bunch of kingdoms brought together threw conquest. China has a rich and interesting military history, you should study it before you speak. Don't be niave to think China is perfect no country is innocent. If you dig deep enough into any country's history there are many skeletons to be found.

Well said!

On the other hand, the guy may have a point in saying that China never invaded any country, because China will simply declare other sovereign countries to be "an inseparable part of the sovereign Chinese territory" before proceeding with the invation, so that they can deny the invasion afterwards by categorizing it as only a civil disturbance. Isn't it wonderful?:dead:

And of course any other countries trying to offer assistance is then "interfering with an internal Chinese issue and Chinese sovereignty".

KhawMengLee

19th April 2005, 03:53 PM

Here's what I find puzzling:

The one man whose words inspired me for peace is Yasushi Akashi, former UN envoy.

WE LIVE IN AN AGE in which a lot of discussions and negotiations are constantly taking place between peoples and governments of different countries. However, I do not think that they constitute a genuine dialogue or heart-to-heart conversations between people belonging to different cultures and generations.

http://www.icponline.org/icp_sections/convention/conv_5/p1_01.htm

I think his words and sincerety do pluck at the strings of the heart. An I admire him for that and revere that Japan produced a such a son.

At the same time, lets look at Issei Sagawa. Who, as a student, murdered and ate a woman in France. He was saved by the his father and the japanese government where he revels in Japan as a celebrity. Now I know that Charles Manson has a cult following in the US but the difference here is that he is in jail and isn't given TV deals and published in magazines and accepted by the general public as a role model and an upstanding member of the public.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/sagawa/1.html

The man is a killer and a cannibal. And did it for his personal pleasure and now he lives a life of a celebrity?!? Whats wrong with this picture.

Take Peru's former President Alberto Fujimori. Implicated in corruption and murder and he's given asylum in Japan?!?

Making mistakes is a shame. But refusing to acknowledge mistakes and living with them as truth is a disgrace.

mingshi

19th April 2005, 04:57 PM

...numbers to children in history books are meaningless. 30,000, 300,000 might as well be 3,000,000..
Interesting point. I don't know the US education system much, but over here I don't think you can promote to your secondary school if you can't tell the difference between thousands, millions and billions.

My maths aint that great but at least I wouldn't confuse 10,000 suburi with 100,000,000.
______________

We may also dig up US soldiers in Iraq torturing prisoners of war. And you can say the photos are fakes and Oh, It Happens All the Time, or I didn't do it, Get Over It.... Iraq invaded Kuwait too. Blah blah blah.

mingshi

19th April 2005, 04:58 PM

Hi Meng,

Your PM box is full and I just want to say hi and ask about your HK experience!! I am back and you disappeared!! :D

Cheers,

mingshi

19th April 2005, 05:05 PM

From the website akai bushi posted here, Japanese government do apologize many time.
Hi. Sorry I called someone Japanophile, and their self-esteem is completely damaged.

I apologized.

MANY times.

Yet, some people are no doubt, Japanophiles. Especially at the Japanforum website. And I am going to write books about it. The end.

KenShi_JoB

19th April 2005, 05:22 PM

Hi. Sorry I called someone Japanophile, and their self-esteem is completely damaged.

I apologized.

MANY times.

Yet, some people are no doubt, Japanophiles. Especially at the Japanforum website. And I am going to write books about it. The end.

You can call me what you want Mingshi. :)

Musha

19th April 2005, 05:37 PM

Charles Manson has a cult following in the US but the difference here is that he is in jail and isn't given TV deals and published in magazines and accepted by the general public as a role model and an upstanding member of the public.

A little about what I heard about Charles Manson how ever we got to that subject! :D. Charles Manson was just that a cult leader, he never actualy did any thing but his followers did. Is he even in prison now?

KhawMengLee

19th April 2005, 05:48 PM

Hi Meng,

Your PM box is full and I just want to say hi and ask about your HK experience!! I am back and you disappeared!! :D

Cheers,

Don't worry. Will be back soon for work and probably for holidaze in june or july.

Yeh, been off kendo for a few months recovering from getting robbed. All healed now!

KhawMengLee

19th April 2005, 05:51 PM

A little about what I heard about Charles Manson how ever we got to that subject! :D. Charles Manson was just that a cult leader, he never actualy did any thing but his followers did. Is he even in prison now?

Er...Hitler probably never shot any jews but he sure commanded the people that did to do so. Manson was a loon who wanted to wage a race war between blacks and whites. He instructed his 'family' to butcher people and then smear words like "WAR" and "PIGS" to make it seem like a hate crime done by blacks. Yes, he is in jail and rightfully so!

Yo...osh!

19th April 2005, 06:54 PM

From the website akai bushi posted here, Japanese government do apologize many time.

Hi...don't want to stir too much of an apology debate but in the list you pointed out, most apologies were personal apologies, and general in nature. E.g. "express remorse for suffering inflicted on Asians".

I guess what China is looking for is a specific government to government apology directed specifically towards the Chinese people, in both oral and written form. The apology has to embody the view of the entire Japanese government, not just the view of a private individual. This is my understanding.

However, I don't think it's going to happen because such an official apology would be tantamount to accepting responsibility. i.e. paying reparations and shooting themselves in the foot in the disputed oil/fishing regions.

Yo...osh!

19th April 2005, 07:21 PM

Taiwan and Tibet are part of the China since 900 years ago , part of the country. You can't denied the fact.

Hi, to supplement what kanyil in response:

From an international law perspective, the argument that Taiwan is part of China because it was 900 years ago is absolutely false.

You do not have good claim to a territory after transfering the land to another country via a peace treaty after losing a war. In 1894, Japan and China engaged in the Sino-Japanese War in which Japan defeated China. As a result, in 1895 the Ch'ing government of China signed a peace treaty known as the Treaty of Shimonoseki with Japan. Therefore, Japan acquired good title to Taiwan. China lost title to Taiwan.

When Japan lost to the allies, they signed the peace Treaty of San Francisco. The allied powers (US, Great Britain), as victors of war, had power to force Japan to dispose of her territory.

The allied power merely required Japan to "renounce" ownership of Taiwan. Therefore at this stage Taiwan belonged to the victors of war: the allied powers. China was not even a party to this treaty! Therefore there is no way the territory could be "transferred" to them.

Not being a victor of war, and not being a signatory of the subsequent peace treaty means that China did not re-acquired the territory of Taiwan after WWII.

So what is the legal status of Taiwan? ROC merely had authority over Taiwan as an agent of the allied powers. Since the agency relationship has naturally terminated through time, the true ownership of Taiwan is by its people. In this scenario international law requires that the Taiwanese people decide through referandum as who who has sovereignty over Taiwan.

My source of the below information is by a professor of International law at Fordham University. The article is entitled "One China Policy and Taiwan".

JSchmidt

19th April 2005, 07:46 PM

I do agree those protestors are bring ignorant and childish , but those riots are just a sparkle of a next big event that is going to be taking place .
All those anti-Japanese demonstrations across asia has shown the faulse policies the Koyizimi gov't had chosen.

P.S. : BURN DOWN THE ''Yasukuni Shrine '' , That is like a hall of famous for all the nazi criminals.

A) The demonstrations are a convenient outlet for recent frustration with the Chinese system...Japan was kind enough to provide a good diversion, as there had been several anti-chines goverment riots in recent weeks.

B) Tha Yasukuni shrine does indeed hold a nice list of class A war crimininals...but is also a shrine for ALL of Japans war dead..

Jakob

Wifenmummy

19th April 2005, 08:28 PM

It takes a while to forget and a lot longer to forgive. Japan like Germany had a good ole' time when they were on their merry expansion run and then got a taste of what they gave when the tide turned.

As someone pointed out earlier Imagine if Germany started printing books glorifying the Nazis and saying the Holocaust didn't happen.

I think the protestors where stupid and childish, but then again (as Terry Pratchett puts it) the mob's intelligence is determined by the IQ of the stupidest mob member divided by the number of people in the mob.

Respect needs to be given by both sides but I think so far Japan hasen't given any to China.

forgive me i had no idea what japan did in the war(but then war is never pretty).. thanks for the terry pratchett quote.. (that i understood) lol

Wifenmummy

19th April 2005, 08:34 PM

Fortunately and unfortunately part of what defines the East Asian psyche is their strong connection to the past. The idea of holding a multigenerational grudge is not unheard of. Now recognizing that though it would follow that asking them to forgive is a difficult thing for them to do. An injury to an ancestor, even in the case of the first half of the 20th century where a direct relative may not have been affected, is an injury to oneself (a collective "ancestor" if one will...). Just as the the Chinese (and OTHER neighbours of Japan) have trouble with forgiveness, so do the general Japanese population have trouble with admitting their mistakes of the past. It defines them and their self image, their "face" if you will. Understanding this will help in understanding how difficult it is to ask all the parties to change their behaviour.
hmm should have thought more.. thats quite true..
dont most asia countires have shrines in their homes for their dead family members? or is that in the past?

mingshi

19th April 2005, 09:40 PM

forgive me i had no idea what japan did in the war...
Thanks for claiming to be as innocent as a lost sheep, even though I wonder why you started posting in the FLAMES section in the first place.

Your sins are forgiven.

Ignorance is bliss.

Amen.

Akai Bushi

20th April 2005, 12:41 AM

Interesting point. I don't know the US education system much, but over here I don't think you can promote to your secondary school if you can't tell the difference between thousands, millions and billions.

My maths aint that great but at least I wouldn't confuse 10,000 suburi with 100,000,000.
______________

We may also dig up US soldiers in Iraq torturing prisoners of war. And you can say the photos are fakes and Oh, It Happens All the Time, or I didn't do it, Get Over It.... Iraq invaded Kuwait too. Blah blah blah.

I'm just saying numbers are cold. Videos and really life accounts and a moral lesson are more important because when the school year is over no one is going to remember how many chinese died in Nanking whether you write it or not.

And I really don't mind if you call me a Japanophil doesn't bother me one bit, but it hurts your arguement by using fallacies. Attacking someone's character is what your doing instead of argueing the point. Maybe in addition to your wonderful Hong Kong education you should take a logic class and memorize your fallacies.

Akai Bushi

20th April 2005, 12:57 AM

Hi...don't want to stir too much of an apology debate but in the list you pointed out, most apologies were personal apologies, and general in nature. E.g. "express remorse for suffering inflicted on Asians".

I guess what China is looking for is a specific government to government apology directed specifically towards the Chinese people, in both oral and written form. The apology has to embody the view of the entire Japanese government, not just the view of a private individual. This is my understanding.

However, I don't think it's going to happen because such an official apology would be tantamount to accepting responsibility. i.e. paying reparations and shooting themselves in the foot in the disputed oil/fishing regions.
If you read the whole websight I posted you'll see that Japan did apologize offically from one government to another government.

Japan accepts responsiblity.

China doesn't want the Chinese people to know how many times they've been apologized to. Japan has given reparations in large amounts to many East Asian countries.
Does Japan need to give money to individuals? In China that would go against National Socialism. In that form of government isn't paying the government the same as paying individuals?:wink:

Akai Bushi

20th April 2005, 01:00 AM

http://forum.japantoday.com/m_173618/mpage_5/key_/tm.htm
Here is that website again incase you get it mixed up with another one I posted.

KhawMengLee

20th April 2005, 01:43 AM

If you read the whole websight I posted you'll see that Japan did apologize offically from one government to another government.

Japan accepts responsiblity.

China doesn't want the Chinese people to know how many times they've been apologized to. Japan has given reparations in large amounts to many East Asian countries.
Does Japan need to give money to individuals? In China that would go against National Socialism. In that form of government isn't paying the government the same as paying individuals?:wink:

You know...the one thing I remember when studying journalism was the paradox of credibility on the internet. As well as being an amazing source of information (and free pornography. YAY!), the net is also full of disinformation. Just because it is written doesn't make it so.

Now I'll put it to a very simple test. Who here has actually heard, live on the news, the Japanese Government formally apologizing and acknowledging its role in the War and acknowledging the rape of Nanking? Secondly, who has heard on the news or the papers, the Japanese government actually paying reparations to the victims of slavery and rape?

Because I can tell it definately is biiiiiiiiiiig news and won't appear on page 40 among the obituaries.

In my life, moving from Malaysia, Australia, London and Hong Kong, I have not once heard a formal Japanese apology. I have not once heard a Japanese Minister stand in the Diet and announce to a world audience or even a Korean, Malaysian, Chinese, etc it was sorry. And don't say that its China cencoring the news to keep the public blind because I don't think Hong Kong, South East Asia, Australia and UK are part of a global conspiracy to wreck Japan.

I have heard though:

Of damages in cash being awarded against a Major Japanese corporation by 2 chinese slaves who worked in their mining operations during the war. And of course the Company took them right back into the court of appeals.

A group within Japan protesting that Japan should acknowledge its past and award compensation. (Funny, Japanese people demanding that their own government apologize, even thought the Diet has been doing so for ages...I guess Japan has no TV's or Newspapers eh?)

Korean protestors cutting off their fingers in front of the Japanese Embassy in Seoul to protest the wartime atrocities.

Former rape victims "Comfort Women" protesting yearly for some dignity in the form of an official apology. Now your source was from a forum. Lets try an encyclopedia.

Japan regards all World War II compensation claims to be settled, with the single exception of North Korea, with which it has not signed any treaty for war time settlement. These treaties settle all claims at the government level. However, as is the case with most treaties concerning the War, they do not cover civilian claims.

Up until 1992, the Japanese government denied any official connection to the wartime brothels. In June 1990, the Japanese government declared that they were run by private contractors. However, since 1992, when the historian Yoshimi Yoshiaki discovered incriminating documents in the archives of Japan's National Defense Agency indicating that the military was directly involved in running the brothels (by, for example, selecting the agents who recruited or coerced women into service), Japan's official position has been one of admitting "moral but not legal" responsibility. Former Japanese Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone famously stated in his memoir published in 1978 that he set up a comfort house for his troops when he was a navy lieutenant in charge of accounting.

No formal Apology yet and this basically says, " Though we may be wrong we shouldn't have to pay for our actions."

In 1995, a Japanese semi-governmental "Asia Women's Fund" was set up for atonement in the form of material compensation and to provide each surviving comfort woman with an unofficial signed apology from the prime minister. Because of their unofficial nature, many comfort women have rejected these payments and continue to seek an official apology and compensation.

Still no formal apology. Semi-government organization is waaaaaay different than the Prime Minister apologizing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women

Akai Bushi

20th April 2005, 03:41 AM

Now your source was from a forum. Lets try an encyclopedia.
Look I know I sent you to a forum and I know a forum doesn't mean its hard evidence, but if you read the posts by Hermeneus you'll see that he backs up everyone of his claims. So does it really matter that I sent you to a forum if all the sources are backed up in that forum?

KhawMengLee

20th April 2005, 04:37 AM

Right. Your view is that Japan is:

1) Apologetic of its past actions.

2) Has given compensation.

3) Has adequately educated its youth on the subject.

************************************************** ****

1) An apology is an acceptance of guilt and truly feeling remorse and acknowledging it.

2) Given compensation, very tricky. Giving money does not equal an apology. In Singapore, Japan at first paid compensation to the British for damage toBritish structures but nothing to the Chinese victims. They considered the matter closed.

When Singapore gained independence they finally bowed to pressure and in October 25, 1966, Japan agreed to pay $50 million in compensation, half as a grant and the other half as a loan . Note, a grant is money given but with certain criteria to fulfill. A loan has to be repaid. Its hardly, money just given with no strings attached. However, the compensation package did not come with an official apology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sook_Ching_Massacre

3) Adequately educated? Lets see...(this goes hand in hand with being genuinely apologetic)...

Lets take the subject of the Rape of Nanking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

In Japan, as far as Japanese academics are concerned, the controversy over the existence of atrocities ended in the early '90s. Both sides accept that killing did occur; however, disagreement exists over the actual numbers, which depends on the standard of inclusion of archival or anecdotal evidence, definition of the period of the massacre, as well as geographical coverage.

Okay, Japan admits it happened but cannot agree to the scale. Even though a proper tribunal has set the number at between 200,000-300,000.

Currently, no notable group, including right-wing nationalists, deny the existence of the killings and the debate has shifted mainly to the death toll, to the extent of rapes and civilian killings (as opposed to POW and suspected guerrillas) and to the appropriateness of using the word "massacre". Apologists insist that burial records from the Red Swastika Society and the Chung Shan Tang (Tsung Shan Tong) were never cross examined at the Tokyo and Nanjing trials, arguing therefore that the estimates derived from these two sets of records should be heavily discounted. They also admit that personal records of Japanese soldiers do suggest the occurrence of rapes, but insist that this does not determine the extent of rapes. Moreover, they regard personal testimony from the Chinese side to be propaganda. They also point out that there are no documented records of the rapes, unlike the burial records that exist and document the killings, and therefore argue that the assertion of mass rape is unsubstantiated. Apologists further insist that the majority of those killed were POWs and "suspected guerrillas", which they consider to be legitimate killing, so that the use of descriptive word "massacre" is inappropriate

Okay, they put forward the view that the people killed were mainly enemy combatants. And the rapes are mostly isolated.

However, within the public the debate still continues. Those downplaying the massacre have most recently rallied around a group of academic and journalists associated with the Society for the Creation of New Textbooks. Their views are often shared in publications associated with conservative, right-wing publishers such as Bungei Shunjū and Sankei Shuppan. In response, two Japanese organizations have taken the lead in publishing material detailing the massacre and collecting related documents and accounts. The Study Group on the Nanjing Incident, founded by a group of historians in 1984, has published the most books responding directly to revisionist historians; the Center for Research and Documentation on Japan's War Responsibility, founded in 1993, has published many materials in its own journal.

The Society for the Creation of New Textbooks produced history textbooks for junior high school and submitted them to the Ministry of Education. The Ministry ordered corrections in 137 places. After the corrections, the book passed the 2001 inspection. This has again caused fury from Korea and China, both sides demanding reinspection. The book was published and wrongly appeared as a best-seller, because of the systematic distribution of most of the 750,000 copies by the Society for the Creation of New Textbooks. The 2002 rate of adoption of this textbook in schools was only 0.039%.

Okay, so this view that the Nanking incident is actually overblown is accepted into schools. Yes, 0.039% may seem small but nevertheless it is a view supported by the Government. After all it is published.

Read the full article which the qoutes come from and then tell me if the way the Nanking massacre in those texts are presented, fully covers the horror during those dark days.

In October 2004, the Japanese manga comic book "Kuni ga Moeru," or "The Country is Burning" by Hiroshi Motomiya was suspended from the manga anthology Weekly Young Jump because it "depicted the Nanjing Atrocities as 'real.'" Certain Japanese politicians and civilians wanted the manga censored or removed because they claimed that the incident never occurred and there was no proof of it.

Right, so a view that the Nanking massacre never happened is allowed and sponsored. But a view that it did (as a massacre) happen is banned?!? It seems that the view is certainly warped and baised.

You tell me Koizumi apologizes and fully understands the war atrocities. And yet he cannot let the japanese public have 2 views on the subject. Its the nice whitewashed version but no-full horror massacre version. Which I think is pretty funny since Ichi the Killer which shows the nipples being sliced of a woman is a best seller.

************************************************** *****

Since my first post I have pointed out that with this issue, Japan has yet to be honest with their words. Like a rapist saying to the judges he's sorry for what he did and then nicking off to the pub to brag to his mates how he gave a good shafting and a beating to the victim.

Hollow words do nothing to soothe the heart.

Malaysia, Singapore we have put it behind us and maybe China should too. But Japan's actions also rubs salt into old wounds.

Katonk

20th April 2005, 06:20 AM

ISSAC RU

20th April 2005, 09:26 AM

For Yo...osh! :

Treaty of San Francisco indicates Taiwan will be returned to ROC after the war.
What does ROC stand for ? Republic of China.
It doens't matter how you say ..oh.the power and authority belong to Taiwanese people ...the name is called Republic of China . Altho ROC doesn't like PRC , But the policy of ROC stated clearly Taiwan is part of China. One China policy apply both to the ROC gov't and PRC gov't.

In the World there is only one China , and Taiwan is part of China . It doesn't matter how much Japanese or American @sses you kissed , but you don't denied the fact you speak chinese , celebrate chinese holiday , write chinese and Chinese trandition. Therefore , you are a Chinese.

Yo...osh!

20th April 2005, 10:50 AM

Hi, just because you have the same culture doesn't mean you have sovereignty claims. The Austrians and Germans are both Germanic peoples. But they are separate countries. Look at Latin America. They are all latinos. Doesn't mean a more powerful latin country can claim sovereignty over a smaller, weaker latin country.

Ecuador and Venezuela and Columbia were one country before. But now they are separate countries. Doesn't mean Columbia can have soverignty rights over Ecuador because it is more militarily powerful.

As for the Treaty of San Francisco, you should read it. Nowhere in the treaty was the word "return" or "transfer". There was no intention for either PRC or ROC to have full sovereignty rights. I'm not saying ROC had sovereignty over Taiwan. They didn't get it as a result of the Treaty of San Francisco.

Anyway, I don't mind if ROC says Taiwan is part of China, the Constitution can be amended to say otherwise, to reflect the attitudes of today (if that indeed is the attitude). Also, people can vote for pro-China, or pro-unification political parties if they wish. But it's the decision of the people of Taiwan, not mainland China.

KhawMengLee

20th April 2005, 12:09 PM

Here's my opinion...

Japan's post war constitution specifically states that Japan will maintain a military solely for the purpose of self-defense and prohibits the use of nuclear energy or weapons. The stipulations were included as an acknowledgement of Japan's warring past and as a way to change its' cultural direction towards peaceful and diplomatic options.

To me, that and the official apologies are enough.

Of course it is. You and your homeland haven't been on the receiving end of what they did.

The exclusion of Japan's past war atrocities may very well be due to Japan's desires to maintain it's current peaceful and diplomatic path. It's hard to believe that a socialist society like China would be so critical of Japan's lack of substantiveness int their textbooks. Imagine what the Chinese government excludes from their children's textbooks?

Have you been to China? I've been working there for the past year. The level of education in their private schools almost rivals its counterparts in the west. As for the Government schools, I wouldn't be too quick to judge seeing as how in your government institutions Darwin's theory on Evolution is banned.

Now to think that China's citizens are Stalinistic is ignorant. I would place them as highly capitalistic and as for political mindset...nationalist. Sorta like America in the industrial boom...everyone's tryng to make a buck.

There's no doubt that these protests are government sanctioned. And these protests are not so much about Japan's past, but about China's future. China is an emerging economic and political power and don't want to play second fiddle to a tiny country like Japan. But they lack the geopolitical credibility or for that matter, experience. So they pick on old wounds, try to draw attention to a non-issue, try to discredit what they think is holding them back.

As an American - I too see China's rise as both exciting yet dangerous. On the one hand you want to support economic and social progress, but on the other hand, at what humanitarian and political costs?

Are they Government sanctioned? Where is your proof? Remember these protest fall on the anniversary of Tienamen. The Government tried to keep order but at the same time was in a very procarious situation if they were to be heavy handed.

Political Credibility is a moot point here? What is the issue? Human rights? Hey, is the US anyone to talk? May Lai in Vietnam. Not to mention Abu Ghriab and now more cases are emerging throughout Iraq of military abuse.

Remember these incidents of protests aren't just on the Chinese side. Ultra Nationalists in Japan drove a truck into the Chinese Embassy a few months back(before the chinese protests).

I will agree that China is not perfect but it is a developing nation. When the US was starting up, they had slavery, chinese forced to work the railroads, murder of Indians for land. Today there is a remorse for these actions but it doesn't deny the fact that in the name of progress America commited these acts. Will China make equally bad choices? Maybe, but that's the price of growing up.

mingshi

20th April 2005, 02:28 PM

Look I know I sent you to a forum and I know a forum doesn't mean its hard evidence, but if you read the posts by Hermeneus you'll see that he backs up everyone of his claims. So does it really matter that I sent you to a forum if all the sources are backed up in that forum?
So thats your source of "information", no wonder you ended up with what you got in mind... Forums are the worst comparing to newspaper, TV and such. Quoting from some site and then adding in personal opinion are what forum discussions are going. So long for Hermeneus the interpretor. Read a book or two on the subject, then come back and argue with us, then you may stand a chance.

Situation B.

I mentioned the term "Japanophile" and evoked a considerable amount of Japanophile sentiments.
I apologized numerous times in Koizumi-style.
Should you choose to throw bricks at me like an aggressive Shanghai protestor, or should you choose to, like you said, "Forget It That Was Three Days Ago, Move On", it's up to you.
Afterall if I said I haven't called you a Japanophile, history textbook will say the same, and the poor innocent Japanese school children can't tell a damn difference, as if it has never happened.
Aah, I love Japanophiles.

Akai Bushi

20th April 2005, 03:21 PM

Wow suddenly Mingshi is the expert cause he read a book or two on the subject. I as well have read quite a bit on the subject, but I guess it's just hard to fathom I would have my view point on this subject if I actually studied it.
***
And the forum sites treaties and Government Ministry Webpages as backup. Those are quite credible sources. Just cause it's not a newspaper or an encyclopedia doesn't mean it's not a good source. And Newspapers are by no means 100% free from political view points. At least treaties and other government documents are accurate.
***
Do you guys seriously think Japanese school children don't learn what happened in Nanking?
***
And for calling me a Japanophil, apology taken. I forgive you.
***
Japan has said they're sorry what China and Korea wishes to do with it is their problem now.

Yo...osh!

20th April 2005, 05:46 PM

Japan has said they're sorry what China and Korea wishes to do with it is their problem now.

A better phrase would be "if Japan issues an official written apology signed by both the Prime Minister and the Emperor directed specifically towards the Chinese people, and stop distorting the truth in the school textbooks," then it's China's problem to get over it.

Something similar to the joint Japanese-South Korean declaration signed by Mr Obuchi and South Korean President Kim Dae-Jung during Kim's visit to Tokyo in 1988.

A signed written apology is needed to make a document that future generations can refer to. A signed written word is always clearer and stays intact. The spoken word can be changed, as one can change their mind.

Fonsz

21st April 2005, 06:04 AM

Mr Red Warrior,
I would like to point out that Mrs Mingshi may be a lot of things but certainly not a he. It is now a matter of time before she will know about this slip of the keyboard and it is safe to assume that she will not be amused.

The fight that Japan now has with their neighbors will continue to rage when there will be no well meant official apologies. The way the Japanese ruled in Korea and China before and during the war is for me all the more reason for apologies. I have read the books "Korea and its place under the sun" and the "Rape of Nanking". If half of it is true (which I think is not), then apologies are in order.
Germany has taken all the blame and more for WW II. They have put quite a lot of ash on their head and even the present generation is in a way sorry for what their Grandparents did. Maybe they went a bit too far, but you can trust the Germans to do something Grundlich. Because of this the relations with the former enemies and or former occupied countries are very friendly to good. The only time that the flames are rising is when there is a football match against them and usually the flames die when the match is over.
Since Japan has never really put ash on their head and persist to downsize officially everything that happened, the troubles will continue.
Since my father and relatives have experienced what Japanese rule was I will try to give you my 0,02 Euro.
My father hated everything Japanese because of his experiences during the war in the Dutch East Indies (present day Indonesia). He never told us what they were and he can't tell now because he has passed away quite some time ago. He hated Japanese cars, TV's, stereo's everything. Once when we were on vacation in Hawai he spoke with some Japanese people who lived there and he always said afterwards that they were quite friendly considering they were Japanese. He was also very puzzled when I started doing Kendo, and he suggested me quite a lot of alternatives. But that was my father.
My Ken Jutsu Sensei on the other hand was a POW of the Japanese Army in the Dutch East Indies and he told us a lot of stories about how they were treated and mistreated during his incarceration. I feel that after hearing those stories I can understand why someone holds a grudge against the Japanese.
My Sensei never the less has in a way forgiven the Japanese, he said since they were the victor you could never expect any mercy. After the war he wanted to practice Kendo in Holland and since there was nothing he is one of the founding fathers of the Dutch Kendo Renmei. The reason he wanted to practice Kendo was because he saw the soldiers practice Kendo in the POW camp. They even made him "motodachi" to receive their blows. After Kendo he switched to Ken Jutsu to get to the core of Budo. When I was in Japan with him he told me he couldn't be angry with all the friendly and kind people in Japan. He would maybe willingly kill the Commander of the POW camp but he bears no grudge with the Japanese. It is a strange twist of fate that our resident expert of the Koryu has encountered the short end of the stick of these traditions. Last year he finished a book which is called "The Legacy of the Gods" and it is the history Koryu and Budo.
If Japanese History books continue to downsize this era of their history how can future generations of Japanese come to terms with their past? I think that this is the message that the neighbors are trying to get across.

Paikea

21st April 2005, 07:33 AM

Mr Red Warrior,
I would like to point out that Mrs Mingshi may be a lot of things but certainly not a he. It is now a matter of time before she will know about this slip of the keyboard and it is safe to assume that she will not be amused.

I think one of the things she's not is married, but yeah, (to paraphrase a good movie line) he's not in trouble - he's dead where he stands.

What's that whistling sound?

ISSAC RU

21st April 2005, 02:11 PM

Fonsz

21st April 2005, 02:23 PM

I think this thread should stop right here .

This event is simply a clash between the two-super powers in Asia.
This kind of event is going to happen alot when China starts to dominate Asia-pacific and even challenging the role of the USA in the international affairs.
Hello Issac Ru,
You seem to have a good grasp of current affairs for someone of your age. My compliments. But I think I saw a lot of valid reasons flying over and over so I don't think this thread should end. If we can solve or explain this intricate topic then it would be a good omen for those involved in this row to think this over.

Fonsz

21st April 2005, 02:27 PM

I think one of the things she's not is married, but yeah, (to paraphrase a good movie line) he's not in trouble - he's dead where he stands.

What's that whistling sound?
I stand corrected I meant of course Ms. Mingshi, thanks for pointing that out. I sure hope she will forgive me after she's done with the culprit Red Warrior.
:redface:

ISSAC RU

21st April 2005, 02:39 PM

Power struggle will always occur between two strongholds.

I can see China still has a many things to improve , such as " act like a mature country '' , but the many chinese young people like me don't understand what is the China's role in the international stage. They will be motivated by any means that will benefit their interests , emotions and themselves. I understand this very clearly since I was brought up by their system . I was like one of them , but after I see the world from a different prespective I do believe China and Japan ''supposly'' should be working together like brothers , but this will never happen because of the deep-emotional feelings the two countries have.

China now is engaging herself into a more dominate role in the international affairs , but before becoming ''world-superpower'' . China has to driven the Ameicans out of the region and make herself as the reign of the Asian-pacific.
If this is eventually happening , it will hurts definitly hurts the interests of USA and Japan. So , clashs will be happening unless one side is willing to give herself up as a loser .

I view these events as part of obsticles China has to work out with its near neiboghers , but how and when ?

ISSAC RU

21st April 2005, 02:45 PM

I made many typos upstairs , but anways..

Japan should re-adjust its foreign policies back to the one they had during the 70s to early 90s. If Japan continues its way of treating his partners in the region ,she will either hurt herself or stopped by the Americans.

No one benefits from unpleasant events like this .

Fonsz

21st April 2005, 02:59 PM

Quite right. To let you know that nothing is impossible I would like to share with you the examples of how former enemies can cooperate.
Right now there already excists an Army unit comprised of Dutch and German units. If anyone told you about this say twenty years ago they would be labeled crazy.
The German heads of state attend ceremonies in France to remember the war dead. The same applies here, no one would have dared to dream that this would happen. It takes some time to get to this point. But the governments and the people of these countries were genuinely sorry for what happened. So I think you hit it right on the nose when you said that Japan should adjust his Foreign Policy. But I don't think that policy makers are roaming around here on this Forum. Too bad, they could learn something.

kanyil

21st April 2005, 05:13 PM

Fairly even handed article on NY Times about the whole debacle.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/21/international/asia/21letter.html?hp

Hisham

22nd April 2005, 10:19 AM

IMHO if there was a real appology to the chinese people and the other asian countries that suffered from the japanese imperialistic "slice n dice" era, the latent anger that was inherited by the new generations would've faded away, you might say that those demonstrations are government propaganda but to do that you still have to base it on something, IMO the apology has to take a physical form like a memorial to the victims in Japan itself, i don't know if Germany has one but the concentration camps are still there to remind there people of the horrors of what happened during the nazi rule.
In a way if the chinese goverment is only playing it's people, don't give it the chance to do so, again i believe that the Japanese government in parallel of saying "we're sorry" has to build somekind of memorial for the civilians that were massacred and abused in those sad days and make the young japanese visit it and pay respect, of course the emperor and prime minister included. The scar will still be there in the collective memory but at least it'll be fully healed. The demons of the past have to be taken care of by facing them once and for all honestly as in yuko datotsu, if the Japanese still respect the samurai attitude they should face them head-on.
As long as they're runing from them they're setting themselves and maybe the world for another hate fest in the futur, in other words we would be again stupidely repeating parts of history we must not be repeating, why? just because of something called ego.
BTW Japan isn't the only country with an imperialistic past that's not dealing well with this type of situation, France ,Belgium ...etc are in the same list. I won't talk about what those countries did in there old colonies but i'll give you one example, the colonized people (including my grandfather) who fought in the 2 wars under the flag which is not theres and gave there life, seldom are they mentioned in documentaries if ever, no appreciation whatsoever. Just the fact that i'm including this in this post tells you how i feel. Anyway, the "ostrich" kind of politics will only result in disaster, appologizing honestly shows strength of the mind not weakness as some might think.
I hope that what's happening now will end by strengthening the ties of friendship between the chinese,the japanese and all the other countries that are touched by this subject.
My 2 dirhams

ChaShu

22nd April 2005, 10:04 PM

Arguning for neither side in this message, just a timely update to the issue at hand from the website for CFRB in Toronto:

Japanese PM apologizes for wartime aggression in bid to ease row with China http://www.cfrb.com/content/cp_article.asp?id=/global_feeds/CanadianPress/WorldNews/w042206A.htm (http://www.cfrb.com/content/cp_article.asp?id=/global_feeds/CanadianPress/WorldNews/w042206A.htm)

Fonsz

22nd April 2005, 10:08 PM

Today at a conference in Indonesia Prime Minister Koizumi has stated apologies for the short Japanese Rule of South East Asia. Isn't it wonderful that as we speak and argue the Japanese Government has come to their senses and reacts to the current events in China. Just a few stones through the window of a Japanese Restaurant in Shanghai can make the difference I suppose. But I wonder are they really sorry or do they want no more bricks in the Katsu Don?

Hisham

22nd April 2005, 10:13 PM

Man they gotta materialize that appology somehow, words thrown here and there will never be enough even money.

Akai Bushi

23rd April 2005, 12:32 AM

I don't think there will be a memorial built by the Japanese anytime soon. And if it was it would have to be built in China because no Japanese would go or very few would go. Its like an American wanting to go to the Memorial in Hiroshima it's few and far between. Considering all the unciivilized actions the Chinese people have been involved in as of late, like breaking UN law. A memorial is in the far off future.

Koizumi along with 79 other congressmen visited Yasukuni Jinja yesterday.

Alittle video I found. It probably won't sway anyone. Maybe just make you more angry. But this does show the direct translation of the offending textbook, which is good to see no matter what side your on.
http://monoganac.sakura.ne.jp/7m/src/milktea71097.swf

KhawMengLee

23rd April 2005, 12:53 AM

Considering all the unciivilized actions the Chinese people have been involved in as of late, like breaking UN law. A memorial is in the far off future.

Koizumi along with 79 other congressmen visited Yasukuni Jinja yesterday.

Really, what uncivilized actions? Violent protest? Didn't the same happen a few months ago in Japan? Anti-chinese protest by the nationalists and even one of them ramming a truck into the Chinese Embassy. Is it fair to label all Japanese people as uncivilized?

UN Law? The issue is about justice, not the law. They are two seperate things.

As for Koizumi and his Lawmakers visiting the shrine, well...as I said, it goes to show the sincerety of his apology.

Actually, why don't they just remove the funeral tablets of the war criminals and then its no longer an issue. Really, I mean we don't see any war memorials in Europe honouring Hitler.

Akai Bushi

23rd April 2005, 01:37 AM

Yes agreed, any attack against an embassy where the government doesn't take care of the offenders is against UN law. Doesn't matter if your Japanese or Chinese it's illegal and uncivilized. But for China it's not just the embassies, but also crimes against human rights. Its hard to believe that the Chinese government can not control the protests considering what happened at the Tienmien Square Massacre. We all know that if it was a protest against the evil Chinese government then we know how long this protest would last. I'm not saying the Chinese government should call out the tanks like they did in Tienmien Square that would be another tragedy committed against the Chinese people by it's own government. People protest Japan cause they can. People don't protest China because they can't.

It is a very hard concept to understand that visiting Yasukuni Jinja is part of the Japanese culture. And just cause China complains isn't going to change anything. And I agree that it would be best to remove the Class A war criminals, but I still think that their are plenty of other people to honor at Yasukuni and Koizumi shouldn't stop honoring them.

I personally think Japan should stop apologizing, 34 times is enough. China will never think Japan is really sorry so why bother. Another apology is just hot hair wasted. Japan is a free society unlike China and their are many textbooks with many different ideas. Good luck monks in Tibet being mentioned in any Chinese textbook or apologized to for that matter. Maybe Japan is just following the moral leadership of the Chinese government by "ignoring" past events.

ChaShu

23rd April 2005, 03:53 AM

As for Koizumi and his Lawmakers visiting the shrine, well...as I said, it goes to show the sincerety of his apology.

Actually, why don't they just remove the funeral tablets of the war criminals and then its no longer an issue. Really, I mean we don't see any war memorials in Europe honouring Hitler.

I actually have to agree with you KML san. I believe that someone on this site had pointed out that the shrine in question is a privately owned entity with no official ties to the government. Would it not then be advised that the Japanese build an OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED memorial to war dead in general such as most countries have and lay wreaths there? Just a thought... And possibly a memorial to those who have suffered under japanese rule during the era. Something to the effect of "put you money where your mouth is." I also have to say that I'm sure there are probably many Americans and other Allied compatriots that have visited the peace museums at Hirosima and Nagasaki, so you (not YOU KML san, just YOU in general) may not want to discount the remorse that foreigners feel about the event... I'm sure more current Americans and Allied compatriots know more of the specific events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (with graphic detail) that the current Japanese do about the actions of their government during the time. In fact, I'm sure more Germans know of the events and the Nazi party's involvements surrounding WW2 and the Holocaust than do Japanese about events of the time perpetrated by their government. Although props to the Japanses war vets who laid wreaths at Pearl Harbour. I'm sure they know more about the time and what was done than the Japanese of today. Just C$0.02 more from me.

KhawMengLee

23rd April 2005, 05:50 AM

People protest Japan cause they can. People don't protest China because they can't.

Can't protest eh? er...so I guess that we can call the 10,000 or so people waving banners outside the Japanese Embassy in Shanghai a friendly gathering.

Japan is a free society unlike China and their are many textbooks with many different ideas.

Once again you are talking like someone who based his opinion by watching Red Square or Spy Games too many times. Hollywood is not reality mate and neither is Fox News. Go to China today. Work in its cities and talk to the working proffessionals there and you will find a very high degree of educated people not the Maoist puppets you so thing the Chinese people are.

China has government control but so does japan or any society for that matter(The banning of the manga supporting the Nangking massacre is direct proof of this, isn't that cencorship?). The difference is that China is still a developing nation and like the soviet union, made up of various ethnic chinese groups. If you expect China to adopt your version of a Free Society overnight, you are a seriously naive individual living in la la land. China has seen what happens when freedom is aproached without caution. They learnt this from Russia and the collapse of the USSR.

If China was as draconian as you say it is then Hong Kong right now would be a nightmare with half the political opposition in jail. And Macau would probably be wiped of the map with its casinos turned into carparks.

China is probably the worlds fastest growing economy and is advancing rapidly. In ten years it has jumped to a level which took post war Japan 20-30 years to do. Your image of China is tanks and troops everywhere with secret police on every corner. Dude, biiiiig wake up call...China today is like Japan during its industrial boom...lots of opportunities for the smart to get rich.

Seriously, go to China and work, and then come and talk to me about this so-called Government control.

ChaShu

23rd April 2005, 07:57 AM

Just another update friends:

China Officials Dismiss Japan Apology
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=6&u=/ap/20050422/ap_on_re_as/apology_politics_2

Seems everything is escalating. Interesting note that the Chinese officials pointed out the visit to Yasukuni shrine as an example of action not following words. Hmmm... maybe they're on to something. You think maybe the PRC & Japanese Foreign Ministries are taking pointers from this thread? Seems like they're following our discussion with actions in lock step. Ladies and gentlemen, WE may be setting foreign policy here! You see! Getting hit in the head repeatedly with a stick has no detrimental effect after all! :D

ChaShu

23rd April 2005, 07:59 AM

Interesting quote from the above mentioned article:

"This week a Tokyo court rejected a suit for apology and compensation by survivors and relatives of victims of Japan's biological warfare and the 1937-38 Rape of Nanking, ruling that the statute of limitations had expired. Historians generally agree imperial soldiers killed 150,000 people in the Chinese city."

Again... actions not following words? You decide.

Akai Bushi

23rd April 2005, 08:22 AM

China doesn't destroy Hong Kong because it is a shining jewel of capitalism and they're hoping to move economically toward that because communism and command economies don't work. MyanMar and N. Korea are the only two left with that kind of economy, probably the two worst economies in East Asia. China maybe moving toward a capitalist economy, but they still don't have the freedoms of a democratic society.

So are you telling me that if I was writting for a newspaper and supported Taiwan as a seperate country as many native Taiwanese do I would be allowed to print such an article? Hong Kong is probably the only City were that would be allowed. Are you saying the Dali Lama can return to Tibet or even go to Shanghai and preach? China is not a haven for rights other than moving toward property rights. I know of a professor teaching in Japan that if he visits his wife in Canada or teaches what China doesn't agree with the Chinese government will kill his parents still living on the Mainland. So China is still a dangerous place if you don't watch what you say or do. And Hong Kong better hope that in 2047(when basically they loose the protection of the agreements made between England and China) that China has adopted a more modern approach toward speaking out against the government.

I still can't believe I'm seeing posts by people that think Japanese don't know what they did in WWII. It's completely untrue.
***
I still think textbooks and numbers are meaningless with out something visual.
Every Japanese should see a video of the terror that happen in Nanjing.
Every Chinese should see a video of what happened in Tibet and during the cultural revolution.
Every German(which they do) should see a video from the consentration camps.
Every American(which I have) should see a video of what happened to the people after Hiroshima.
We all need to learn about the horrors of war when it is out of control.

KhawMengLee

24th April 2005, 01:47 AM

China doesn't destroy Hong Kong because it is a shining jewel of capitalism and they're hoping to move economically toward that because communism and command economies don't work.

China is already reaching that level. Before Hong Kong became the modern day 'jewel of the orient' there was Shanghai. Tho' at the time the colonials were less politically correct and so dubbed her the 'whore of the orient' because it was THE trading centre for China.

Yes, China is moving towards capitalism but as I said before it cannot happen overnight. If you gave the people the exact same rights as Japan then you would have social collapse.

Look mate, the communist structure is there but capitalism is all the rage. Communism now, is the support that holds the bridge together before the keystone is placed.

So are you telling me that if I was writting for a newspaper and supported Taiwan as a seperate country as many native Taiwanese do I would be allowed to print such an article? Hong Kong is probably the only City were that would be allowed. Are you saying the Dali Lama can return to Tibet or even go to Shanghai and preach? China is not a haven for rights other than moving toward property rights. I know of a professor teaching in Japan that if he visits his wife in Canada or teaches what China doesn't agree with the Chinese government will kill his parents still living on the Mainland. So China is still a dangerous place if you don't watch what you say or do. And Hong Kong better hope that in 2047(when basically they loose the protection of the agreements made between England and China) that China has adopted a more modern approach toward speaking out against the government.

The Taiwan issue is not black and white. Taiwan was and is part of China. It is a tactical point that is also too close to China. Sorta like Cuba was when the Russians decided to park a few dozen nuclear missles there.

Look mate, freedom is not such an easy thing even in modernized countries. You say that in China if you talk against the government you get killed or locked up. Go to Singapore, stand in Raffles square and say "Lee Kwan Yew gane go F*ck himself!" and see how fast before the ISA(Internal Securities Act) lands you in jail. Yes, Singapore, economic hub of SEA and one of the most well state controlled countries ever.

Go to the states today, start voicing out how much you support Al Qaida and se how fast before the FEDS knock on your door and give you a free ticket to Cuba.

************************************************** ****
As for HK's rights after 2047, dude, I loved how the British Government kept on about human rights and asking Hong Kong to get autonomy AFTER it let Hong Kong go (not to mention cleaning out its reserves by building the new airport). Why didn't they allow them the freedom before?

China has been very very very patient and liberal with Hong Kong. I know, I lived and worked there for a year. In fact, they are a lot more strict on Chinese Nationals trying to enter Hong Kong.

By 2047, Hong Kong had better hope that China will give it the time of day because by then China would be at an economic high. In the past, people go to Hong Kong to trade in China, now they go direct. Its like how they used to do the same in South East Asia with Singapore.

As before, you are talking on a subject you have no first hand experience about. Go to Hong Kong and see what controls there are, go to China and see the change it is undergoing. Believe me, if China's government wanted to fan anti japanese sentiments it won't be just a few thousand people protesting and rioting...it's hundred's of thousands.

Akai Bushi

24th April 2005, 02:12 AM

China has seen what happens when freedom is aproached without caution. They learnt[ed] this from Russia and the collapse of the USSR.

Just a note on one of your back up arguements.
The USSR didn't collapse after they gave everyone rights. They economically collapsed first and then gave everyone rights. China already has an economy much much strong than Russia has ever had. Rights aren't going to hurt anyone. It might infact boost the economy even faster. The only way it could hurt them is if no one goes to work because they want to protest all day and if they are allowed to protest anytime they want and vote for the government they want then there won't be the need to protest so much(Except in the case of Japan) and cut time from productivity. Doesn't only like 5% of the Chinese population vote for the Beijing government? Would it hurt China or cause it to collapse if everyone could vote?

ChaShu

25th April 2005, 09:10 AM

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen. Just an update on the situation:

Japan Criticizes China History Textbooks
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=9&u=/ap/20050424/ap_on_re_as/japan_china

Apology in one hand... Slap in another? Hmmm...

KenShi_JoB

25th April 2005, 11:24 AM

KhawMengLee

25th April 2005, 04:32 PM

The only way it could hurt them is if no one goes to work because they want to protest all day and if they are allowed to protest anytime they want and vote for the government they want then there won't be the need to protest so much(Except in the case of Japan) and cut time from productivity.

Workplace protests by trade unions are the bane of capitalism. Ironically, China is a communist country and would it have, still the same policy, this would not be a problem.

The state in the past provides for the people and still does. The difference now is that suddenly you can have a lot more extra cash/benefits/etc if you put in the effort.

You may be surprised to know that in most SEA countries you cannot distrupt production with protest. It is a jailing offence. This includes Singapore and Malaysia for example. Is this wrong? In the communist mindset it is. But as far as the economy is concerned its good.

Once again, you are looking at the situation from a unrealistic angle. I said before, you cannot give freedom without proper foundation. Its easy for you in the US to say freedom this and that, but your society has had time to grow and stabalize. Heck, 20 or so years ago they used to make unco-operative union bosses disappear (Jimmy Hoffa).

Doesn't only like 5% of the Chinese population vote for the Beijing government? Would it hurt China or cause it to collapse if everyone could vote?

Er...everyone can vote. Its whether they excercise that right. Remember, voting is not compulsory in most countries(even the USA). If 5% voted then its that 5% that was bothered to vote.

************************************************** *******
On a side note: I had some people over China a few weeks back. On this issue they said they felt that the government was too SOFT on Japan. Funny words coming from people that supposedly cannot give criticism to the government.

KhawMengLee

25th April 2005, 05:02 PM

Right people! The issue here is not whether how many times Japan apologizes. Its whether the people of China FEELS it can FORGIVE Japan.

A few people here say they feel Japan has done enough. Well, you aren't in the position to say that, the only people who have that right are the victims, NOT YOU.

The Chinese people are reasonable, give a sincere apology and some gesture of compensation to the victims and they'll forgive. Untill, Japan truly shows sincerety, this issue will not die.

Hisham

25th April 2005, 08:41 PM

A few people here say they feel Japan has done enough. Well, you aren't in the position to say that, the only people who have that right are the victims, NOT YOU.

Bull's eye

KenShi_JoB

25th April 2005, 09:19 PM

JSchmidt

25th April 2005, 09:42 PM

Yes, China is moving towards capitalism but as I said before it cannot happen overnight. If you gave the people the exact same rights as Japan then you would have social collapse.

Look mate, the communist structure is there but capitalism is all the rage. Communism now, is the support that holds the bridge together before the keystone is placed.

Communism isn't holding anything in place..the absolute power of the 'goverment' is.
First, China isn't using the communist system. China is a totalitarian system, using the 'communist' moniker as an excuse. As with Russia, communism may have been the idea, but as with most ideologies, that went out of the window, once the 'leaders' realised what power meant.
That's what it's all about: Power. The leaders aren't worried about the economy, should they give people more freedom..they are worried about getting lined up against the wall and be shot as criminals..a power they have used far too many times themselves against 'unwanted' elements.
China's human rights record is appaling. No if's & but's...it's just appaling, which makes their constant cry for apologies from Japan (justified or not!) rather hypocritical.

Jakob

Akai Bushi

25th April 2005, 11:50 PM

Er...everyone can vote. Its whether they excercise that right. Remember, voting is not compulsory in most countries(even the USA). If 5% voted then its that 5% that was bothered to vote.

To vote for the Beijing government you must be part of the communist party. To be part of the communist party you must be nominated by another member of the party. Only about 5% of China is part of the communist party. So only around 5% vote.

And Capitalism may be all the rage, but it is by no means the bridge to rights and freedoms in the mind of the Chinese government. There is no way the Chinese government is going to let go of their power in an open election or even want to in the future. They want a strong economy so people stay happy and off the government's case.

KhawMengLee

26th April 2005, 12:09 AM

Communism isn't holding anything in place..the absolute power of the 'goverment' is.
First, China isn't using the communist system. China is a totalitarian system, using the 'communist' moniker as an excuse. As with Russia, communism may have been the idea, but as with most ideologies, that went out of the window, once the 'leaders' realised what power meant.
That's what it's all about: Power. The leaders aren't worried about the economy, should they give people more freedom..they are worried about getting lined up against the wall and be shot as criminals..a power they have used far too many times themselves against 'unwanted' elements.
China's human rights record is appaling. No if's & but's...it's just appaling, which makes their constant cry for apologies from Japan (justified or not!) rather hypocritical.

Jakob

Whilst I would agree with the notion that communism is a facade at the same time you cannot get rid of it overnight. You'll have a power gap and chaos. Just like you have in Iraq.

As for not worrying about the economy, well, that's bollocks...look mate, at the end of the day its a country they are running and if it was as you believe, then Shanghai would not be the commercial hub it is and as I hail a cab, I won't be able to see how 70% of the are Volkswagons. No sane government wants to screw up its country. China is changing, it cannot do it overnight but it is heck more different from the state you have in mind.

Killing/imprisoning political opponents is appalling but it sure is a heck of a lot more different from gutting pregnant women and bayoneting the featus, raping adolecent girls, torturing and murdering 300,000 people.

KhawMengLee

26th April 2005, 12:21 AM

To vote for the Beijing government you must be part of the communist party. To be part of the communist party you must be nominated by another member of the party. Only about 5% of China is part of the communist party. So only around 5% vote.

I'll ask a few mates in China to confirm this.

And Capitalism may be all the rage, but it is by no means the bridge to rights and freedoms in the mind of the Chinese government. There is no way the Chinese government is going to let go of their power in an open election or even want to in the future. They want a strong economy so people stay happy and off the government's case

Er...how do you know that? Are you a party member? First, of all the new political system to emerge has to evolve. You are talking about the old fading out to the new. It cannot just happen and western democrasy does not always work in other countries.

Er...I think they would want China to have a strong economy so that it will improve and prosper. As for the "people to stay happy so they wont bother the government" well, I think thats the pipe dream of every government.

Go to singapore and spout off anti government slogans and you will be arrested. Why aren't the people roiting? Because the society is happy through work and prosperity? You have a totalitarian government there. But is Singapore a bad place? I don't think you'd hear many people say so.

Sigh...go work in China. Then talk to me.

JSchmidt

26th April 2005, 12:39 AM

Whilst I would agree with the notion that communism is a facade at the same time you cannot get rid of it overnight. You'll have a power gap and chaos. Just like you have in Iraq.

Poland got through it reasonably smoothly. Iraq is a bad example as a foreign force invaded and along the way destroyed the infrastructure..add continued resistance, etc, has made it tricky...apples & oranges

As for not worrying about the economy, well, that's bollocks...

No its not...they are currently worrying about the economy because they need to satisfy people to a certain degree in order to keep their powerbase..but that is most definitly not the reason they aren't changing..they aren't changing because the current leaders would A) lose their power B) get shot for the crimes they have commited.

Killing/imprisoning political opponents is appalling but it sure is a heck of a lot more different from gutting pregnant women and bayoneting the featus, raping adolecent girls, torturing and murdering 300,000 people.

That's still no excuse. 2 wrongs never made a right. Does forced partial birth abortions ring a bell?. Sorry, dude, no other country gets even close to the amount of human rights violations

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-chn/index

ISSAC RU

26th April 2005, 02:23 PM

I been living China for most of my life , how come I didn't get abused
or have somekind of freak human right crap coming up to me everyday?

People who are saying China has those kind of human crap is fearing
China would eventually become a super power and challenge their authority
in the world.

Those people want to see China becomes poorer and crapper by the second.
They do not want to see a strong China.
Thats the main reason why they brought up that kind of human rights crap
every year.
How come nobody says anything about the human rights in America?
how many times you seen a policeman beat up a black guy in the middle of the street? How many times you seen a overcrowded american prison?...etc...

Those people who are critizing the human rights in China make me sick.
Same for the hippies saying " free Tibet ''...They sickens me inside...
They are being utilized as a tool of the new American globe domination plan.

mingshi

26th April 2005, 02:37 PM

That's still no excuse. 2 wrongs never made a right.
This is true though. That's why I said I am neutral. Amnesty International has records of almost all countries (together with Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org)) in the world with human rights violations.

Japan is bad > look at China!
China is bad > look at USA!
USA is bad > look at Iraq!
Iraq is bad > look at North Korea!
... and the vicious cycle goes on...

If the rest of you need to further this argument, at least put up some decent website, not like dodgy flash animation or forums with other people's opinions. I am getting bored by the shameless barking.

Sepiraph

27th April 2005, 01:59 AM

I know that many of the older Chinese folks still hold grudges against the Japanese, but I don't know about the younger generation. I suspect that those younger generation in mainland China still have a grudge, but definitely not those in my generation from Hong Kong.

To me, it's stupid to hold grudges against the people from WWII when almost all of them are dead by now. When you realize over 90% of Japanese alive today did not participate in the war, one have to wonder why there is still this hatred.

As a proponent of individualism, I've always try my best to not judge someone based on their race or ethnicity. History has repeatedly taught us that the flame of nationalism is dangerous, and most often it is used as a tool to manipulate the masses. Hopefully the trend of globalization will continue and dispel this notion of nationalism, and people will be just seen as people.

JSchmidt

27th April 2005, 02:30 AM

How come nobody says anything about the human rights in America?

Take another look at the AI website..they critiscize every country!.

Question, though: If China is that great and the Western world sucks that much, what are you doing in Canada?

Jakob

Ninjujinkaku

27th April 2005, 06:42 AM

Isn't it obvious? he was born in canada. I would say that hong kong is a great place to live, plenty of brits are still there as well. As far as the whole japan vs china thing, I agree with the people of china, do you think the common chinese person really cares about japan giving the chinese gov money that they will never see and wont make its way to them? So the common chinese person still hates japan because of history. China has hated japan for a very long time as well.

samurai999

27th April 2005, 07:01 AM

Well a while back, there was a similar issue with slavery. I am of Japanese descent which makes me unaccountable (since my ancestors came here after slavery was abolished) so why do I have to put up with the reparations to be paid for each slave. (there was pressure for the US govt to do this at one point...)

As for Jp vs China. Although Japan did commit atrocities in manchuria, why should my family (who didn't even fight for the Imperial army on my moms or my dads side) have to pay for it? As a matter of fact, my grandfather fought on the US side. it all comes down to money in the long run and it is ridiculous.

Tim

Kiai

27th April 2005, 07:44 AM

personally, like a few other people who posted on this thread, i dont have any ill feelings towards the japanese over the issue being discussed in this thread. Im chinese by the way, but until recently i wasnt that knowledgable on this issue. I suspect it has to do with me living in the U.S. all my life and getting an American education. however, i do think that japanese government is wrong to not make it clear to its citizens that it (in the past) is responsible for the crimes commited against its neighbors in the mid 20th century. the japanese govenrment should take a cue from the German government. by letting history books, that make light of and even to go as far as to erase events that took place is irresponsible. people learn history for a reason. it is so that the next generation can learn from it and avoid doing the wrongs that were done in the past. what the japanese government is doing is just a bad as the turkish government denying that the Armenian Genocide ever took place. mind you, i do not think that the violent protests by the chinese people are called for however if you look at it carefully one can see the frustration those protestors are under to the point where they cant act rationally and have to resort to violence.

with the issue of the territory disputes between japan and the other asian countries involve i will not give my opinion since i do not have sufficient knowledge of the issue to comment on it. likewise on the issue of japan making a bid for a seat on the UN security council.

Hisham

27th April 2005, 07:57 AM

Hopefully the trend of globalization will continue and dispel this notion of nationalism, and people will be just seen as people.

I sure hope so but it's going to take a long time, for instance tribalism is still making victims in some african countries let alone nationalism. IMHO people have got to be thought to be more "planet earth, big human family" aware then again that is too close to utopia i guess.

samurai999

27th April 2005, 08:34 AM

As what mingshi implied earlier... Each country has their own "dark secrets" that they never talk about. The only thing is.. Japans offense is pretty wide out in the open and blatent. I was watching the History channel a while back and they were talking about Switzerland harboring Nazi officers escaping from Germany and this country was neutral??

As for nationalism. I dont want total globalization (or utopia i guess). I lose part of my uniqueness in that sense. I'm proud to be a nikkei-jin and proud of my heritage. if we throw away all that, i'd feel like we'd be living in a nation of robots... But on the other hand, these dangerous rivalries (on this scale) between nations and religions have to stop if we are to truly have peace. Again.. happy medium.. happy medium..

Tim

ChaShu

27th April 2005, 11:53 AM

As for Jp vs China. Although Japan did commit atrocities in manchuria, why should my family (who didn't even fight for the Imperial army on my moms or my dads side) have to pay for it? As a matter of fact, my grandfather fought on the US side. it all comes down to money in the long run and it is ridiculous.

Tim san, although the anger and violence on the protesters' may be irrational, we can't say that what is motivating it is ridiculous. While you said in your post that none of your ancestors fought for the Imperial Army, on the other side, some of these protesters (I'd reckon many) have familial ties to the victims. I personally have familial and personal ties to guerillas who fought during the war in the Phils as well as civilians, even clergy who were tortured during that time. Their forgiveness and acceptance, I belive is as valid as the anger felt by those protesters, who probably either do not realize in a largely material sense the aid or investment that Japan provides to China, which BTW Japan profits from to a certain degree (why invest when you can't make money?). To say that this is ridiculous is the same as saying that the anger that my Japanese friends, who are my age and have no familial connection to the interment camps, feel about the act itself is ridiculous. While the protesters or my friends' actions are irrational, we shouldn't discount their feelings and motivations.

ISSAC RU

27th April 2005, 12:04 PM

FoR JSchmidt :

Did I say China is the greatest country in the world and other countries sucks?
I think you should read the post more carefully next time.

For your information , all those international students or people across the sea to learn something that can be learned in their own country is dumping their own culture and country?

''Oh , Hi . China is so filthy and dirty , I can't have a normal life there . I m being abused by the commies everyday and I have to swim across the pacific go to Canada and have some burgers and praise the oppoturnity I have to learn How bad is China and I should never go back there.''

You should have a way better view on the world rather than being a lonely
frog sitting in the bottle of a well and say " um..thats how big the sky I can see from here, I guess the world is just that big.''

Jesus chirst dude...grow up .

Sepiraph

27th April 2005, 03:47 PM

I sure hope so but it's going to take a long time, for instance tribalism is still making victims in some african countries let alone nationalism. IMHO people have got to be thought to be more "planet earth, big human family" aware then again that is too close to utopia i guess.

I don't think it'll happen in the next few generations, but at least the trend of globalization is there. Specifically thanks to the internet, physical distance as a barrier has significantly been broken down. Recall just 10 years that a forum like this simply did not exist.

As for nationalism. I dont want total globalization (or utopia i guess). I lose part of my uniqueness in that sense. I'm proud to be a nikkei-jin and proud of my heritage. if we throw away all that, i'd feel like we'd be living in a nation of robots... But on the other hand, these dangerous rivalries (on this scale) between nations and religions have to stop if we are to truly have peace. Again.. happy medium.. happy medium..
Tim

Well depending on one's viewpoint, but I always held the opinion that one's uniqueness comes from his/her personality and not his/her race. If anything, I see (again it's just my opinion) people limiting themselves due to their cultural/heritage as a hinderance to truly discovering who they are as an individual.

FoR JSchmidt :

Did I say China is the greatest country in the world and other countries sucks?
I think you should read the post more carefully next time.

For your information , all those international students or people across the sea to learn something that can be learned in their own country is dumping their own culture and country?

''Oh , Hi . China is so filthy and dirty , I can't have a normal life there . I m being abused by the commies everyday and I have to swim across the pacific go to Canada and have some burgers and praise the oppoturnity I have to learn How bad is China and I should never go back there.''

You should have a way better view on the world rather than being a lonely
frog sitting in the bottle of a well and say " um..thats how big the sky I can see from here, I guess the world is just that big.''

Jesus chirst dude...grow up .

You did realize that JSchmidt is about twice your age before telling him to grow up right? If anything, go back and read JSchmidt's post, he simply ask you if China is that great and the Western world sucks that much, what are you doing in Canada? I think that is a perfectly legitimate question. Also there is no reason to warrant the type of materials you've just posted because:

1) He did not imply that you indicate China as the greatest country in the world.

2) There is no reason why you should make the frog in the well analogy. Who are you trying to imply as the frog here?

3) Telling an adult to grow up when one is still in puberty is just not right.

KenShi_JoB

27th April 2005, 06:04 PM

In China, how many fellow Chineses did communist party kill during their early days? Is it in Chinese history textbook? Is it 800,000 execution in one year? Or this is another western propoganda?

Hisham

28th April 2005, 07:27 AM

Isaac Ru , you should be more respectfull to your elders, you set yourself up for Jshmidt's question about why you're living in Canada because of some of your statements.
Anyway you do sometimes make good points but some other times your emotions get in the way which is natural for a teenager but try to keep your selfrespect in the process.

007

28th April 2005, 11:12 AM

FoR JSchmidt :

''Oh , Hi . China is so filthy and dirty , I can't have a normal life there . I m being abused by the commies everyday and I have to swim across the pacific go to Canada and have some burgers and praise the oppoturnity I have to learn How bad is China and I should never go back there.''

yet according to ALL yes, ALL of the chinese people living in CT, they don't ever want to go back to that country because of the conditions u described above

mingshi

28th April 2005, 12:37 PM

I found that one questionable "New History Textbook"!!

http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4594031552/qid=1114187520/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/249-6553596-3398746

ISBN: 4594031552

TylerY

28th April 2005, 02:07 PM

Hi,

I'd like to share some experiences I've had on the China-Japan relationship thing on a personal level. Now, I was born in China, but have very strong feelings on this subject. Personally, I cannot sever my ties with my past. It's been said earlier that it's part of an east asian mentality to treasure one's ancestry; this is true. Despite this, my family even calls me a Japanophile sometimes, whereas my Japanese friends call me a Chinese nationalist. It's great being stuck in the middle.

I've been to Nanjing and went to the memorial there. All I can say about it is that it's quiet, dull and smells like old people. The museum there has a few black and white pictures of Japanese soldiers, several WW2 relics (guns, uniforms, etc), and an evil looking manikin of a Japanese soldier holding a rifle with a bloody bayonet (and carrying a very nice sword, I might add). It might just be me, and all this western media that's been desensitizing me, but I didn't find the Nanjing memorial very emotionally provocative.

I do not think agree with what Japan is doing, though. I simply don't like the Chinese government's hypocritical stance on the topic. Japan has the names of every single one of its soldiers and civilians killed during the wars. We only have arbitary numbers like "300,000".

China is not the harsh dictatorship everyone says it is. Everyone goes on and on about "human rights abuses" but no one seems to notice that China's undergoing a freaking industrial revolution. Stop comparing China's conditions to places that have already industrialized, such as the USA or Britain or Germany, but rather to what those countries were like 150 years ago during their industrial revolutions. Britain was sending 10 year old kids into coal mines. American industrialization started a war that killed nearly a million people. In order for a country to progress, it needs money. Money comes from profits and profits come from lesser working conditions. Only after the country has enough money can the country have things like social insurance and free health care (like in Canada, hurray). Give China another decade or so. I'm sure the quality of life will be at least as good as in another other country in the world.

KhawMengLee

28th April 2005, 03:12 PM

it all comes down to money in the long run and it is ridiculous.

Tim

Dude, your comment is both bloody disgusting and an insult. Here's the scenario, I shoot your dad and rape your sister/mom and then toss you a few bucks? Is that enough? No? Here, have a few thousand more? Still not enough? How about a million? Is that enough to pay for your pain? Of course not...we are talking about people who lost their dignity, honour and lives and that cannot be bought or sold.

You know...I truthfully, had a low opinion of mainlanders until I actually went there. We were in Fo San and were eating in a coffee house and this vendor and his daughter came by. One of my colleagues thought she was so cute and bought a few titbits the father was selling. The daughter was adorable and we all gave her a tip little money. The same colleague jokingly asked if she could adopt the girl and the father said to her in jest, "Hey, you follow this lady home okay?!"

The little girl looked at us, walked up and threw our money on the ground and ran back to her dad and hugged him and refused to look at us. This girl was about 7 or 8 and she had pride(she thought the money was to buy her). It was a misunderstanding but I really respected her dignity...she could have run away, walked off but no she came straight to us and basically said "Bugger off! And take your money with you!" When it comes to our personal pride and dignity...there is no price.

************************************************** ******

I am not saying that you have to pay. In your case you have no direct ties to the action, so why should you pay...even then, its not money. (Incidentally, I found it interesting that in Austria. People for 2 generations have to pay into a holocaust reperation fund to Jewish victims.)

KhawMengLee

28th April 2005, 03:20 PM

China is not the harsh dictatorship everyone says it is. Everyone goes on and on about "human rights abuses" but no one seems to notice that China's undergoing a freaking industrial revolution. Stop comparing China's conditions to places that have already industrialized, such as the USA or Britain or Germany, but rather to what those countries were like 150 years ago during their industrial revolutions. Britain was sending 10 year old kids into coal mines. American industrialization started a war that killed nearly a million people. In order for a country to progress, it needs money. Money comes from profits and profits come from lesser working conditions. Only after the country has enough money can the country have things like social insurance and free health care (like in Canada, hurray). Give China another decade or so. I'm sure the quality of life will be at least as good as in another other country in the world.

Exactly, people here are trying to compare a developed society with a developing one. Its like the ole' Democracy works in the US so it will work anywhere in the world argument.

As for the not listing the 300,000 it could be due to several factors. One, the records could have been destroyed during the war (remember, much of China was invaded and destroyed, whereas, Japan never really had the fight on its shores. Apart from bombing.)

Also, the change of regime after the war could have led to a lot of information being burnt or destroyed as well. Confusionist beliefs in remebering our ancestors were expelled during the cultural revolution.

The Holocaust Society has only just listed 3 million out of the 6 million jews killed in WWII. Its taken them 50 years to do so.

KhawMengLee

28th April 2005, 03:48 PM

To vote for the Beijing government you must be part of the communist party. To be part of the communist party you must be nominated by another member of the party. Only about 5% of China is part of the communist party. So only around 5% vote.

"All citizens of the People’s Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of ethnic status, race, sex, occupation, family background, religious belief, education, property status or length of residence."

"The registration of voters is a legal recognition of the voter. "

http://www.china.org.cn/english/Political/26325.htm

TylerY

28th April 2005, 03:55 PM

As for the not listing the 300,000 it could be due to several factors. One, the records could have been destroyed during the war (remember, much of China was invaded and destroyed, whereas, Japan never really had the fight on its shores. Apart from bombing.)

That is true that there are no records because they probably didn't exist, but what I was getting at was that it seems that we don't care enough. We don't spend very much energy in remembrance. Japan has its Hiroshima Peace Park, the USA has its Vietnam Wall. Most countries in the world have a Remembrance Day. We have none of these, no outlet for all the frustration that's been building up for the last 60 years. If they really wanted to, organizations could most likely find a way (surveys and whatnot) to get at least some names. Even if it's not the full 300,000, names take up a lot of space and can have a very powerful effect (the Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor has about a thousand names, and it's really quite intimidating).

mingshi

28th April 2005, 04:35 PM

Most countries in the world have a Remembrance Day. We have none of these...
It's either you have a problem with numbers or you have a problem with cultural awareness.

A few memorial days pop up from my mind immediately:-
Jul 7
Sept 18
Aug 15

ISSAC RU

29th April 2005, 10:51 AM

People who have never been to China should shut up about it until
they actually experienced the country by themselves.

I am being disgusted by those hippies who are yelling out " The human rights in China , or Free Tibets '' crap like that .
Here is a few line : Get a ticket and go to China , experience the Country by yourself , instead of sitting in your little own barkyard reading about some hippie human rights book. Your prespective about China is being propagandaly washed by those programs such as :
A Chinese who lived in U.S.A. for most of his life , and he havn't go back to China for at least 40-50 years. And they are teaching their kids about some crap he experienced in his '' Village'' 40 years ago...and all his children assumed China is a piece of garbage land , where everyone eat rats and all girls are being killed for no reason . 10 year old boys have to work in a shoe factory all day long.....

Jesus Chirst , people . Grow up and view the world with your own eyes .

For all of those you have a problem with CHina , and think China is all bad because she is communist , here is another line for you : Your sight is very limited and You will not go far in your life.

TylerY

29th April 2005, 03:34 PM

It's either you have a problem with numbers or you have a problem with cultural awareness.

A few memorial days pop up from my mind immediately:-
Jul 7
Sept 18
Aug 15

If I have a problem with cultural awareness, it would really suck, it being MY culture. But let's say I do have a problem with cultural awareness. Hopefully my family doesn't. They live there. So I ask them and the answer to my queries was "What? Do you mean Mid-Autumn Festival (Aug 15)". But let's say my family which lives in China is culturally unaware too. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and search Google for Chinese holidays on those days.

Here's what I found, it looks like a pretty concise list:
http://www.index-china.com/index-english/chinese_holidays.htm

Nothing in July except the CCP's birthday, not very "Remembrance Day"-like if you ask me. But there's the 7th day of the 7th lunar month. 七夕, if I remember right. But that's almost like Valentine's day.

September? Teacher's Day.

August? Army Day. That could ALMOST be a day to remember people killed in wars, but it seems to be "used to promote better relationships between the army and civilians" instead.

So. As of right now, I'm feeling pretty confident about my awareness of my own culture.

Maybe I have a problem with numbers, but that's another story.

Fonsz

29th April 2005, 06:05 PM

Ok you guys lighten up, we were discussing the recent Japan/China problems now it has turned into a war between the Children of the Heavenly Empire. We can assume that 1 massacre doesn't equal another massacre. Or that they don't even out each other. I think that too many lives have been taken in China, be it by Japanese or by their "own" people. Punishment in China is very severe and lethal so what else is new, this has been going on for ages. The country is rising to become the next World Super Power. Their awareness of how they have been treated by the rest of the world is gradually growing. The governement of China is trying to control it all. They quell mutinies like on Tianamen Square bloody and swiflty. They had a cultural revolution where a lot of people perished. But now they allow people to throw rocks at Japanese buildings and restaurants. How convenient for the powers that be to control a mob. If they wanted they would have nipped this in the bud, but they chose not to. But in a few years I think they will have to be like any other country where the life standard is rising.
There is a saying in Dutch that when you have butter on your head don't walk in the sun.

mingshi

29th April 2005, 08:21 PM

Nothing in July except the CCP's birthday, not very "Remembrance Day"-like if you ask me. But there's the 7th day of the 7th lunar month...blah blah...As of right now, I'm feeling pretty confident about my awareness of my own culture...
1. We are talking about WWII. Please think a thousand years more forward from where you are thinking of - in modern times we don't remember days in lunar calendar...

2. If all remembrance days are made HOLIDAYS, no one will ever get to work. I believe Sept 11 and Apr 20 are not national holidays either.

3. You are given second chance of my question of remembrance days.

4. Is that a bit more of a challenge if I add the day June 4th?

People who have never been to China should shut up about it until they actually experienced the country by themselves.
So... You've been to Tibet?

Lloromannic

30th April 2005, 01:23 AM

Killing/imprisoning political opponents is appalling but it sure is a heck of a lot more different from gutting pregnant women and bayoneting the featus, raping adolecent girls, torturing and murdering 300,000 people.

Well Mao Zedong did carry out his "Great Leap Forward" during which millions died. And then there was that Cultural Revolution thing and that Tiananmen business.

samurai999

30th April 2005, 01:33 AM

Dude, your comment is both bloody disgusting and an insult. Here's the scenario, I shoot your dad and rape your sister/mom and then toss you a few bucks? Is that enough? No? Here, have a few thousand more? Still not enough? How about a million? Is that enough to pay for your pain? Of course not...we are talking about people who lost their dignity, honour and lives and that cannot be bought or sold.

Well is China asking for JUST an apology and requesting that Japan rewrite their history books? This is the question i'd like to ask then. If so, they have that right. Its not about Japan throwing money at China. I didn't mean that at all. I think its the other way around. Of all the human rights groups asking Japan to pay reparations, I think that is ridiculous since they usually want Japan to pay on the whole and involves MY FAMILY (my moms side at least) which had NOTHING TO DO WITH THOSE ATROCITIES. The point I was trying to make was that MY FAMILY, yes one of the many nikkei that fought or supported the US SIDE mind you, should not have to pay reparations for the war victims as for what some groups are asking for. Thats what i meant that it all turns into a money issue in the end.

Tim

samurai999

30th April 2005, 01:44 AM

Well depending on one's viewpoint, but I always held the opinion that one's uniqueness comes from his/her personality and not his/her race. If anything, I see (again it's just my opinion) people limiting themselves due to their cultural/heritage as a hinderance to truly discovering who they are as an individual.

I guess i believe that my cultural history/lineage is not really a hinderance but more of something to be proud of. And sometimes personality comes from ones own historical backgrond. Though using the "race card" as a hinderance into requesting more money and services (as what some racial groups are doing here) is not something i would support, i would like to see other types of ethnicities coming out with new and different things so as we can learn more from them..

Tim

samurai999

30th April 2005, 01:57 AM

Tim san, although the anger and violence on the protesters' may be irrational, we can't say that what is motivating it is ridiculous. While you said in your post that none of your ancestors fought for the Imperial Army, on the other side, some of these protesters (I'd reckon many) have familial ties to the victims. I personally have familial and personal ties to guerillas who fought during the war in the Phils as well as civilians, even clergy who were tortured during that time. Their forgiveness and acceptance, I belive is as valid as the anger felt by those protesters, who probably either do not realize in a largely material sense the aid or investment that Japan provides to China, which BTW Japan profits from to a certain degree (why invest when you can't make money?). To say that this is ridiculous is the same as saying that the anger that my Japanese friends, who are my age and have no familial connection to the interment camps, feel about the act itself is ridiculous. While the protesters or my friends' actions are irrational, we shouldn't discount their feelings and motivations.

I don't see anything wrong with what you said. Its just that when people say that my family has to pay for it (reparations) like what a lot of the Asian PACs are asking for in the US, thats where I draw the line and say enough is enough. That is what I think is ridiculous.

i guess i see it this way.. Say Japan apologizes formally rewrites their books and china formally accepts. Now does that represent the whole of china? or is there something behind the scenes? There will be radicals that will demand reparations (money) and act violently/irrationally. Some I've heard ranging into the billion(s) of dollars for multiple victims. Since anger is what is motivating radicals like them, I doubt that they will ever accept a formal apology from Japan. Sometimes, they forget the righteous cause they were fighting for (which I think is a very worthy cause) and it turns into an "i want money" issue as horrible as it sounds. People can't go full-bore into a cause without looking ahead to keep focused on your goal. Its like running full steam while you are looking into the ground...

Tim

KhawMengLee

30th April 2005, 05:01 AM

There will be radicals that will demand reparations (money) and act violently/irrationally. Some I've heard ranging into the billion(s) of dollars for multiple victims. Tim

Jeez...they should move to the US. I mean you could be an absolute muppet and spill hot coffee on yourself and get millions in court. ;)

Since anger is what is motivating radicals like them, I doubt that they will ever accept a formal apology from Japan. Sometimes, they forget the righteous cause they were fighting for (which I think is a very worthy cause) and it turns into an "i want money" issue as horrible as it sounds.

Well, the victim at the end of the day is the only one who can say when enough is enough. If they choose not to accept an apology, fair enough, it doesn't mean that Japan should give up. I think its not so much the apology but more whether it is sincere.

I agree that you shouldn't have to pay Tim. Its not right and unfair and I don't see how it's possible to think that you are responsible.

samurai999

30th April 2005, 06:28 AM

Jeez...they should move to the US. I mean you could be an absolute muppet and spill hot coffee on yourself and get millions in court. ;)

Yup.. and they're ALL in California.. :rolleyes:

Tim

TylerY

30th April 2005, 07:56 AM

1. We are talking about WWII. Please think a thousand years more forward from where you are thinking of - in modern times we don't remember days in lunar calendar...

I was thinking modern times. You mentioned a July 7th holiday, which doesn't exist. The closest thing to that was 七夕 which is in the lunar calendar.

2. If all remembrance days are made HOLIDAYS, no one will ever get to work. I believe Sept 11 and Apr 20 are not national holidays either.

I'm not saying that ALL remembrance days should be made holidays. I'm saying that China DOESN'T have a remembrance day holiday, a day where people can take the day off and think back on lost loved ones.

3. You are given second chance of my question of remembrance days.

What do you mean? That stuff happened on those days? Yes, I agree with you that stuff happened on those days that deserve to be remembered, but none of them have anything paricularily special happening.

4. Is that a bit more of a challenge if I add the day June 4th?

Just like the previous dates, June 4th had unfortunate events which shouldn't have happened, but it's not a holiday, and my point was that there are no holidays dedicated to remembrance. Unless you're refering the the riots themselves, which weren't about remembrance anyway.

TylerY

30th April 2005, 07:57 AM

So... You've been to Tibet?

The situation in Tibet is there because they don't want to be a part of China. You shouldn't compare that area to the rest of the country.

The great I AM

30th April 2005, 08:34 AM

Well, I am actually enjoying (if that is the right word) reading this thread, though I don't have an opinion myself because I am not well enough informed to formulate and back one up. I have just one request though, can we dispense with the insukting and the name calling please? This thread would be a hell of a lot more readable if it were a little more civilised.

And for Issac Ru: Behave.

Anjin-san

30th April 2005, 10:51 AM

I agree, this thread made me go and do a lot of research on said issues.

ISSAC RU

30th April 2005, 03:22 PM

mingshi

30th April 2005, 06:11 PM

You mentioned a July 7th holiday, which doesn't exist.
No I didn't say that.

I'm not saying that ALL remembrance days should be made holidays. I'm saying that China DOESN'T have a remembrance day holiday, a day where people can take the day off and think back on lost loved ones.
You didn't either. Do you really know what you asked about?

Please refer to post #147 and #150. You were asking for a DAY to REMEMBER. Then suddenly you switched into the "where's my school holiday?" mode. It is a typical schoolboy mentality to think that you need a day off to remember what happened in history.

I agree with you that stuff happened on those days that deserve to be remembered, but none of them have anything paricularily special happening.
Huh? Nothing happened, eh?

Sept 18, 1931 - Japanese soldiers bombed a section of railtracks they built in NE China (at that time Imperial Japan has control over a frew provinces there), claiming that the Chinese Government did it. The Japanese army invaded the city of Shenyang - and within 3 months, invaded the rest of the NE China.

This day is referred to as the beginning of WWII in China.

July 7, 1937 - Also referred to as the "Incident of Lugou Bridge". After the "disappearance" of a Japanese soldier, the Japanese demanded a search into the town of Yunpeng (near Beijing). In the middle of the negociation, the Japanese soldiers fired and bombed into Yunpeng and Lugou Bridge. In the few hours after this incident, the rest of the Chinese territories went under serious threat, and the power of Imperial Japan spreaded across the country.

Aug 15, 1945 - Imperial Japan unconditionally surrendered. Victory Day for all. This year is the 60th Anniversary, mind you.

Yo...osh!

30th April 2005, 10:50 PM

Update :

China Nationalist party 's Chairman has visited People's Republic of China.
Chancellor Lien Chen has just met the Chairman of the China Communist Party , Hujintao.

Historical moment for reunification of the Great China Republics.

For international viewers, Lien Chen is the Chairman and leader of Taiwan's opposition party.

On re-unification, there has to be a rational coming together, not by threat of war. There has to be consent on both sides.

Recent poll conducted in Taiwan resulted in 78% in favour of the status quo. That is, not to unify with China, nor declare independence. People like the way they live in Taiwan, they don't want to change to the CHinese system of governance. Nor do they want the threat of war by declaring independence.

80% of people disapproved of China's "one China, two systems" plan for re-unification. That is a resounding no for China's offer.

(the above poll results was conducted in 2005 by the National Chengchi University, interviewing 1083 adult citizens. Info can be found on their website: http://www.nccu.edu.tw/english/main.php )

ONe has to realise that in Taiwan, the last 20 years of democratic reform has led to free election of presidents, an independent judiciary free from government intervetion, a bill of rights protecting fundamental human rights, free speech, unions to protect the rights of workers, and high living standards. Most people are happy. The system is not perfect, but it's good.

If China can only offer Communist government, lower living standards, decrease in protection of fundamental rights, executive controlled judiciary, and censorship of free media and speech, it is not good enough.

Threatening warfare if Taiwan doesn't accept the above is immature and childish in my opinion.

If one day China can offer high living standards and fundamental rights for all (e.g. Scandanavian countries), then re-unification won't be too hard.

ISSAC RU

1st May 2005, 02:17 AM

Polls...When will they learn thats most retarded trick that can be done by those
dirty politicans.

"One China , Two system '' clearly defines the meaning of one region's system
will not be changed for at least 50 years after unification. People from that region/province will be able to enjoy the system and value they have , after reunification. People's lives will not be changed in ANY forms ( freedom of speech , rights of all kind ) either by the CCP or the provinsional government.

Liberation is necessary when the situation gets out of hand , such ones declear independence , invade by foreign troops and ones gov't will not be able to control its region due the mass chaos in any situation ( ecnonomy , social , gov't ) .

ISSAC RU

1st May 2005, 02:59 AM

Economic interests are the most important for Taiwanese people.

China has offered CEPA (Closer Economic Partnership Arrangement) to the Taiwanese people, but unfortunately the Taiwanese gov't refuse to accept.

CEPA is for the interests of all Chinese people in the region, it only can be done

in the Great Chinese region. This act would allow almost free tax on all Taiwanese products go into China and other numerous benefits to Taiwanese economy.

This arrangement is not FTA, (FTA can only be done by country to country.) Taiwan is part of the WTO, but their status is regional. When China cannot sign a FTA with Taiwan CEPA is offered due to the exporting nature of Taiwan.

Why Taiwanese democrats refuse to accept this term? They think this term is lowing their status. Their thinking is still back in the 20s century, but not even 70s, 80s nor the 90s. IT IS THE 30s, 40s, 50s and the 60s cold war thinking. This very childish, also as sign of limited sight of their government. These democrats have done nothing to save the Taiwanese economy. All they can do is tongue slash all day long in the parliament; no real actions were done to improve the basic lives of Taiwanese people in terms of economic and social for the last 5 years of their governing. This is sad to for the Taiwanese people, but also delay Taiwanese people’ will of re-unification.

As chancellor Lien Chan said in his speech at University of Beijing, “ why can’t we earn world’s money together?’’. Hong Kong and Macau have already signed the CEPA, now they have a way better chance in the world’s economic competition. Politics are all fake and hierarchical. Money is real issue, but this cannot understand by the democrats’ gov’t. Benefits the basic Taiwanese’ interests is the real goal of re-unification. Taiwanese gov’t propagandaly wash its people to hate and fear China, that’s why most people in Taiwan fear they would become communist overnight if it re-unificats with China. Very immature thinking . One China policy will protect the interests and value all people in taiwan .

Yaiba

1st May 2005, 03:07 AM

I've spent the last 2~3 hours reading through the entire thread with much interest. The views/opinions that have been expressed here by everyone has certainly been wide and varied, which is in my opinion a good thing for any debate... however, it has also been disappointing to see SOME of you get carried away with your emotions and show an immature side of your character (since I've always considered humility and compassion to be very important virtues and as students of kendo, we should all be aware of this).

First of all, I can see that ISSAC RU is someone that is immensely proud of his Chinese identity and heritage, which is a good thing for I am also proud of my identity and heritage. However, if I asked you "Do you regret that a former national leader (Mao) was responsible for the 20 million deaths of your fellow countrymen? Do you regret that China killed tens of thousands of Vietnamese in an unprovoked attack in 1979?", what would be your answer?

Unfortunately, by answering either YES or NO, you're pretty much shooting yourself in the foot. If you answered NO then, sadly, you're no different to those you accuse of being ignorant of the past (ie right-wing Japanese textbook publishers, etc). If you answered YES then you're in fact no different to many Japanese citizens, including the politicians that visit the Yasukuni Shrine, for they are also proud of their Japanese identity/heritage but at the same time regret what had occurred before and during WW2.

The vast majority of Japanese citizens and politicians that do go to Yasukuni Shrine are simply honouring those that gave their lives in the course of fighting for what they believed to be for the good of Japan, even if some of their actions can be considered wrong in hindsight. Many Japanese are conscious of the wrong-doings of war and the consequences that it brings (eg 2 A-bombs) and the majority do protest against entirely changing its pacifist constitution. You have to understand that for the Japanese, Yasukuni Shrine and other sites, such as the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Park, etc, are the traditional places where one now reflects on the futility of war.
This is an article from BBC Online. Read WHY the politicians went to the shrine and put yourself in their shoes - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4471455.stm

What I'm hoping to say is every nation has some dark shame (as others have also mentioned on this thread) and it is often easier to look to the future rather than endlessly ponder on the past. Even you (ISSAC RU) and other supporters of China have said China, despite its short-falls, is looking to the future and developing itself as a major, truly democratic power in the international community - so why can't the same conditions apply to Japan in getting on with its life?

Japan has now officially apologised at least 17 times to China so arguing about numbers and figures of historical events is somewhat petty and really not all that constructive for the greater good. Teaching the plain facts of *what* took place at *when* and *where* should be sufficient enough.

ISSAC RU

1st May 2005, 03:53 AM

if I asked you "Do you regret that a former national leader (Mao) was responsible for the 20 million deaths of your fellow countrymen? Do you regret that China killed tens of thousands of Vietnamese in an unprovoked attack in 1979?", what would be your answer?.

Lets answer your first question. First one 20 million deaths during the 60s , because the Great forward -leap and natural diseaster? I have no idea which 20 million deaths you are talking about.
Attack on Vietnam was an act of self defance , Vietnam invaded the Chinese southern border and seized all chinese properties in Vietnam , also killed thousands of Chinese inside of Vietnam. Also , When China turned on Vietnam at 1979. We had the power of capturing their capital but we did not , what we did was serverly punished the Vietnamese army and government for its actions against the Chinese. After that , we retreated back into our border. Same method appiled to the border war with India at late 60s , we had the millitary power of launching a full scale invasion against the indians , but we didn't . We had also retreated back into our border , just to punish the indians.

Japan has now officially apologised at least 17 times to China so arguing about numbers and figures of historical events is somewhat petty and really not all that constructive for the greater good.

We have to see some real action done to educate the young generation of Japan about the crimes their great-grandfathers have done. Apologies don't mean anything unless actions are taken.

samurai999

1st May 2005, 04:09 AM

Interesting point of view i found googling.

http://pekingduck.org/archives/002125.php

Tim

samurai999

1st May 2005, 04:18 AM

Another article on Yasukuni Jinjya. I have a koutsu anzen omamori from that shrine (and it needs to be renewed...). It is not just for the WW2 veterans. It is a shrine commemorating samurai from the mid-1800's as well and for the foreigners that fought for Japan. As for whether they were conscripted? maybe, but at least they were buried (and honored) there like the rest of the Japanese war dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine

And like I said before. All countries are guilty of SOMETHING in their past. Japan, China, USA, etc. Its how to get past all these misconceptions, lies, radicalism and hatred that will guide people to reconciliation. You can't run at something full bore with your head looking at the ground and hope to finish first...

Tim

TylerY

1st May 2005, 06:26 AM

Please refer to post #147 and #150. You were asking for a DAY to REMEMBER. Then suddenly you switched into the "where's my school holiday?" mode. It is a typical schoolboy mentality to think that you need a day off to remember what happened in history.

It's not about whether or not it's a school holiday, but the fact that the holiday doesn't exist shows how much people care about remembering. If a country is willing to shut itself down for an entire day, it shows, to me at least, that it's really devoted to its history.

Huh? Nothing happened, eh?

And I'm aware that things happened on those days half a century ago. But nothing happens NOW on those days. Are they remembered? Yeah, they're remembered, but how many people make an effort to visit cemetaries or war memorials on those days?

TylerY

1st May 2005, 06:41 AM

First of all, I can see that ISSAC RU is someone that is immensely proud of his Chinese identity and heritage, which is a good thing for I am also proud of my identity and heritage. However, if I asked you "Do you regret that a former national leader (Mao) was responsible for the 20 million deaths of your fellow countrymen? Do you regret that China killed tens of thousands of Vietnamese in an unprovoked attack in 1979?", what would be your answer?

Unfortunately, by answering either YES or NO, you're pretty much shooting yourself in the foot. If you answered NO then, sadly, you're no different to those you accuse of being ignorant of the past (ie right-wing Japanese textbook publishers, etc). If you answered YES then you're in fact no different to many Japanese citizens, including the politicians that visit the Yasukuni Shrine, for they are also proud of their Japanese identity/heritage but at the same time regret what had occurred before and during WW2.

But most people wouldn't answer straight YES or NO. Personally, I think the 20 million deaths were regrettable, but was the unfortunate result of a flawed system. The Great Leap Forward was done in the best interests in China. The problem was that it gave unrealistic quotas to people who simply could not handle the burden and so lost much of their own equipment to the government, leaving them unable to produce enough food to sustain themselves. But Mao did not do this because he wanted to kill 20 million people. Mao wanted to do was increase China's steel production. What Mao didn't foresee was the people's overzealousness in reaching their production quotas.

The difference between this and Japan's imperial expansionism is that Japan attempted to gain economic strength through the expense of others. China's Great Leap Forward was theoretically supposed to turn China into an industrial steel-producing giant, not through others, but through their own strength and integrity.

KhawMengLee

1st May 2005, 11:01 AM

The difference between this and Japan's imperial expansionism is that Japan attempted to gain economic strength through the expense of others. China's Great Leap Forward was theoretically supposed to turn China into an industrial steel-producing giant, not through others, but through their own strength and integrity.

There's a huge difference between killing and sadism. There's a huge difference between having your enemies shot and rampaging thru a city raping, torturing and executing civilians.

The PRC may have executed people during its cultural revolution(not a good thing) but none of it's activists went around having head chopping competitions to see who could behead a thousand first.

ISSAC RU

1st May 2005, 11:52 AM

The PRC may have executed people during its cultural revolution(not a good thing) but none of it's activists went around having head chopping competitions to see who could behead a thousand first.

Thats exactly what I was talking about , there is a difference between
brutally slaughter civilans and execute criminals in order to secure the peace and order in the state.

TylerY

1st May 2005, 02:33 PM

There's a huge difference between killing and sadism. There's a huge difference between having your enemies shot and rampaging thru a city raping, torturing and executing civilians.

The PRC may have executed people during its cultural revolution(not a good thing) but none of it's activists went around having head chopping competitions to see who could behead a thousand first.

That's what I said. The Great Leap Forward's death toll wasn't intentional. The pillaging and raping by Japanese soldiers was.

Yaiba

1st May 2005, 02:39 PM

Lets answer your first question. First one 20 million deaths during the 60s , because the Great forward -leap and natural diseaster? I have no idea which 20 million deaths you are talking about.
You haven't answered my question... you are sidetracking here and doing YOURSELF a great injustice. Do you or do you not regret the millions of deaths of your fellow countrymen under Mao? I'm interested to know whether you condone killings/deaths of any kind.

Attack on Vietnam was an act of self defance , Vietnam invaded the Chinese southern border and seized all chinese properties in Vietnam , also killed thousands of Chinese inside of Vietnam. Also , When China turned on Vietnam at 1979. We had the power of capturing their capital but we did not , what we did was serverly punished the Vietnamese army and government for its actions against the Chinese. After that , we retreated back into our border. Same method appiled to the border war with India at late 60s , we had the millitary power of launching a full scale invasion against the indians , but we didn't . We had also retreated back into our border , just to punish the indians.
First of all, let me tell you that many people, including yourself, are failing to realise that ALL combatants have a REASON for engaging in war and normally it is to protect their own interests. You cannot declare yourself to be the righteous side until you carefully consider WHY your enemy took the action that it did. To do this, you need to be open-minded. In most cases, one does not attack another unless it feels threatened in losing something that they value, which is often sovereignty/power over a particular territory. In Japan's case before WW2, they were worried about the potential threat from a Western power because they saw how the rest of Asia was being colonised. In Nazi Germany's case, they wanted to peacefully claim back from Poland the German territory that was taken from them after WW1 (when Germany had to resort to military methods and finally did this in 1939, it was Great Britain and France that declared war (ie started WW2) because it felt threatened in losing the balance of power in Europe).

I, of course, abhor war but I do not take sides because I realise that both parties in a conflict are only serving their own interests.

Secondly, despite having the capability to invade Vietnam or India in the '60s-'70s and deciding against it (as you had mentioned), this does not mean that China was being generous or charitable by any means... China would have had its thoughts on the possible threat from third-parties such as the UN had the conflict escalated.

We have to see some real action done to educate the young generation of Japan about the crimes their great-grandfathers have done. Apologies don't mean anything unless actions are taken.
Again, you fail to realise a fact: Actions ARE and have always been taken since the end of WW2. Japanese students ARE being taught of what happened during WW2, including the suffering of their Asian neighbours at the hands of their ancestors. How they are taught this history only varies through the different textbooks that are used and the critics have just blown this out of proportion to misinform Asian people about the current Japanese attitudes. The Japanese have apologised, have shown regret, have paid reparations and are wanting to look to the future.

Yaiba

1st May 2005, 03:25 PM

But most people wouldn't answer straight YES or NO. Personally, I think the 20 million deaths were regrettable, but was the unfortunate result of a flawed system. The Great Leap Forward was done in the best interests in China. The problem was that it gave unrealistic quotas to people who simply could not handle the burden and so lost much of their own equipment to the government, leaving them unable to produce enough food to sustain themselves. But Mao did not do this because he wanted to kill 20 million people. Mao wanted to do was increase China's steel production. What Mao didn't foresee was the people's overzealousness in reaching their production quotas.

The difference between this and Japan's imperial expansionism is that Japan attempted to gain economic strength through the expense of others. China's Great Leap Forward was theoretically supposed to turn China into an industrial steel-producing giant, not through others, but through their own strength and integrity.
I'm sure Mao didn't want to kill 20 million people just for the sake of it but the fact that he was responsible, as a national leader, for their deaths must instil feelings of regret or shame among the Chinese people with a conscience.

What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't see the deaths/sufferings of those Chinese people under the rule of the Japanese and under the rule of Mao differently, even if the intentions of Mao were supposedly for the good of China. The hard fact is that millions of people paid the ultimate price at the expense of others - both Japanese and Chinese.

A human life should be treated as a treasure and killing it directly or indirectly in ANY manner is unjustifiable. The Japanese are now aware of this and will not tolerate a repeat of such incidences by anyone, including themselves.

TylerY

1st May 2005, 04:13 PM

I'm sure Mao didn't want to kill 20 million people just for the sake of it but the fact that he was responsible, as a national leader, for their deaths must instil feelings of regret or shame among the Chinese people with a conscience.

What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't see the deaths/sufferings of those Chinese people under the rule of the Japanese and under the rule of Mao differently, even if the intentions of Mao were supposedly for the good of China. The hard fact is that millions of people paid the ultimate price at the expense of others - both Japanese and Chinese.

A human life should be treated as a treasure and killing it directly or indirectly in ANY manner is unjustifiable. The Japanese are now aware of this and will not tolerate a repeat of such incidences by anyone, including themselves.

I think there is a difference between what happens under one's own government and what happens under a foreign government, not in the fact that people's lives are lost (I agree completely with you that life should be treasured), but the fact that it's an external entity causing it. If a parent hits a child because he was disbehaving, it's generally understandable, but if a total stranger walks by, sees the child, and hits him, then the issue becomes much larger. The issue here is not that many poeple died through Chinese leaders' poor decisions, but that an equal amount of people were delibrately killed by a foreign power. Especially if that power refuses the acknowledge the extent to which they were acting. Just look at "国が燃える (Kuni ga Moeru)". There are some pretty brutal comics that are available in Japan, but the one comic that is about Nanjing is discontinued. The Japanese may not tolerate a repeat of such indecencies, but what's angering the Chinese is that they don't accept the indecencies they've already done.

Yaiba

1st May 2005, 07:38 PM

I think there is a difference between what happens under one's own government and what happens under a foreign government, not in the fact that people's lives are lost (I agree completely with you that life should be treasured), but the fact that it's an external entity causing it... The issue here is not that many poeple died through Chinese leaders' poor decisions, but that an equal amount of people were delibrately killed by a foreign power. Especially if that power refuses the acknowledge the extent to which they were acting.
Well OK, that's a fair point of view but, in my humble opinion, your argument about a foreign power killing many people (through an invasion) and then not sufficiently acknowleding it can also be used against China, can't it? "Tibet" is obviously a word that comes into many people's mind worldwide, considering there is such a strong global independence movement for that "territory". Depending on how each person interprets it, China is either "oppressing Tibet" or "just ensuring the One-China Policy" but many people, particularly non-Chinese, support the first interpretation and will argue that China has no right to continue vilifying Japan over war-time history, as doing so would be hypocritical in some sense.
This is another BBC Online article that should demonstrate how silly all this furore by a small group of the Chinese population is - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4473415.stm

Just look at "国が燃える (Kuni ga Moeru)". There are some pretty brutal comics that are available in Japan, but the one comic that is about Nanjing is discontinued.
It was most probably censored because it politicised the incident by using disturbing graphics and was not appropriate for minors to view (although this is just my natural opinion). If the drawer/animator wasn't present at the scene of the Nanjing incident at that particular time then his portrayal can be considered as possibly misleading. Besides, like I wrote earlier, Japan IS teaching incidences such as the "Nanjing Massacre" to its students in history lessons so this comic censorship saga is somewhat a pretty weak argument to use against them.

The Japanese may not tolerate a repeat of such indecencies, but what's angering the Chinese is that they don't accept the indecencies they've already done.
Those who choose to remain angry against the Japanese are entitled to do so but, sadly, getting upset and resorting to violence and hateful speeches will not achieve anything. As I wrote earlier, the Japanese have apologised, have shown regret, have paid reparations and are wanting to look to the future. I believe that sooner or later, the Chinese people will have to learn to deal with their own grief, as much as that may sound awful.

Hisham

2nd May 2005, 02:42 AM

Polls...When will they learn thats most retarded trick that can be done by those
dirty politicans.

"One China , Two system ''

IMHO China will be better off with a federal type of goverment in the long run, not in the life of the CP that is, the united states of China doesn't sound bad.

samurai999

2nd May 2005, 03:51 AM

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/05/01/MNGE5CID7E1.DTL

This is what I'm afraid of.

Tim

TylerY

2nd May 2005, 05:29 AM

Well OK, that's a fair point of view but, in my humble opinion, your argument about a foreign power killing many people (through an invasion) and then not sufficiently acknowleding it can also be used against China, can't it? "Tibet" is obviously a word that comes into many people's mind worldwide, considering there is such a strong global independence movement for that "territory". Depending on how each person interprets it, China is either "oppressing Tibet" or "just ensuring the One-China Policy" but many people, particularly non-Chinese, support the first interpretation and will argue that China has no right to continue vilifying Japan over war-time history, as doing so would be hypocritical in some sense.
This is another BBC Online article that should demonstrate how silly all this furore by a small group of the Chinese population is - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4473415.stm

But Tibet IS internationally recognized as a part of China, and has been since 1907. Although I personally disagree with the extent of what's happening in Tibet, a country is still entitled to do what it needs to maintain sovereignty within its own borders. Few countries are generous enough to allow a portion of it to secede. the greatest example of a secession attempt I can think of is the USA's Civil War. Not that I'm comparing the current conditions in Tibet to the conditions in the Southern United States, but that when the South decided to secede, the federal government completely smashed their ability to do so.

It was most probably censored because it politicised the incident by using disturbing graphics and was not appropriate for minors to view (although this is just my natural opinion). If the drawer/animator wasn't present at the scene of the Nanjing incident at that particular time then his portrayal can be considered as possibly misleading. Besides, like I wrote earlier, Japan IS teaching incidences such as the "Nanjing Massacre" to its students in history lessons so this comic censorship saga is somewhat a pretty weak argument to use against them.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/print/news/nn11-2004/nn20041112a7.htm

According to the article, the decision to remove the comic "comes after a group of 37 local assembly members complained that passages from "Kuni ga Moeru" ("The Country is Burning") printed in the magazine's Sept. 16 and 22 editions "distorted history" by describing Japanese soldiers massacring civilians in the Nanjing Massacre of 1937. The politicians claim no such massacre took place."

If politicians can deny an incident that's in the textbooks, doesn't that say something about the validity of the textbooks being used?

Those who choose to remain angry against the Japanese are entitled to do so but, sadly, getting upset and resorting to violence and hateful speeches will not achieve anything. As I wrote earlier, the Japanese have apologised, have shown regret, have paid reparations and are wanting to look to the future. I believe that sooner or later, the Chinese people will have to learn to deal with their own grief, as much as that may sound awful.

I think the problem here is that most people have no way to deal with the grief, because it's still largely controversial on both sides. It has been kept inside for years, so it's unsurprising that this recent explosion is as extreme as it is. But things seem to be getting better, although I worry about what's going to happen after, escpecially since I'm planning on visiting Japan this summer.

Light Samurai

2nd May 2005, 05:39 AM

Question, not to start a flame war, but, why was Tibet thrown into exile?

KhawMengLee

2nd May 2005, 06:00 AM

It was most probably censored because it politicised the incident by using disturbing graphics and was not appropriate for minors to view (although this is just my natural opinion). If the drawer/animator wasn't present at the scene of the Nanjing incident at that particular time then his portrayal can be considered as possibly misleading. Besides, like I wrote earlier, Japan IS teaching incidences such as the "Nanjing Massacre" to its students in history lessons so this comic censorship saga is somewhat a pretty weak argument to use against them.

If you go into any newsstand in Japan you will find tons of manga to read. In them you'll find stories/genres from sci-fi to pokemon to sadism. In full reach of children you can read manga about men torturing women by raping them and then slicing off their nipples to gain information(Ichi the Killer...now a very interesting movie by Takeshi Miike). Hentai manga about rape is so common and extremely graphic.

The law is that you cannot show pubic hair but if the bits are blurred out its okay. So as far as obscenity goes its not the issue.

According to the article, the decision to remove the comic "comes after a group of 37 local assembly members complained that passages from "Kuni ga Moeru" ("The Country is Burning") printed in the magazine's Sept. 16 and 22 editions "distorted history" by describing Japanese soldiers massacring civilians in the Nanjing Massacre of 1937. The politicians claim no such massacre took place."
.

Ditto. An empty apology because in reality they don't believe in admitting the wrong actions of their past.

KhawMengLee

2nd May 2005, 06:08 AM

Those who choose to remain angry against the Japanese are entitled to do so but, sadly, getting upset and resorting to violence and hateful speeches will not achieve anything. As I wrote earlier, the Japanese have apologised, have shown regret, have paid reparations and are wanting to look to the future. I believe that sooner or later, the Chinese people will have to learn to deal with their own grief, as much as that may sound awful.

If someone kills your father would you not seek justice? Would you ever give up? The thing is that most people feel that justice has not been served.

I will accept an apology if it is sincere but how sincere is the Japanese Government's apology?

They say they are sorry, yet, censor a comic which provides a view which is negative to their image. They can sanction a book to be used in schools which whitewashes the terrible events at Nanking and yet ban a book which brings light to it.

Its not just China that feels that Japan is lacking in educating its people about the war. Most of SEA feels the same way too...

TylerY

2nd May 2005, 07:35 AM

Question, not to start a flame war, but, why was Tibet thrown into exile?

Tibet was a tributary of China since the Qing dynasty and was recognized as a Chinese territory through an international treaty signed in 1907. Soon after the treaty, China was thrown into internal problems with the fall of the Qing Dynasty and Tibet fell under the control of regional warlords who generally maintained control until the 1950's when China reclaimed Tibet. The Tibetans disagreed with the reforms that the government was setting up (all over China though, not just Tibet) and started a rebellion (which was backed by the CIA) that was crushed. After this, the Tibetan leaders, incuding the Dalai Lama fled to India and set up a government in exile where they continue to claim Tibetan independence.

This is my understanding of the situation in Tibet. If anything is blatantly wrong, anyone is welcome to make corrections to it.

JSchmidt

2nd May 2005, 07:56 AM

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/05/01/MNGE5CID7E1.DTL

This is what I'm afraid of.

Tim

Ah, that's just capitalistic lies!!
No such thing as dissent in China!

samurai999

2nd May 2005, 08:54 AM

lol.. LIES!! ALL LIES!! Sorry.. Austin Powers flashback.

Tim

Light Samurai

2nd May 2005, 08:58 AM

Tibet was a tributary of China since the Qing dynasty and was recognized as a Chinese territory through an international treaty signed in 1907. Soon after the treaty, China was thrown into internal problems with the fall of the Qing Dynasty and Tibet fell under the control of regional warlords who generally maintained control until the 1950's when China reclaimed Tibet. The Tibetans disagreed with the reforms that the government was setting up (all over China though, not just Tibet) and started a rebellion (which was backed by the CIA) that was crushed. After this, the Tibetan leaders, incuding the Dalai Lama fled to India and set up a government in exile where they continue to claim Tibetan independence.

This is my understanding of the situation in Tibet. If anything is blatantly wrong, anyone is welcome to make corrections to it.
Thank you very much ^^

Yaiba

2nd May 2005, 12:05 PM

But Tibet IS internationally recognized as a part of China, and has been since 1907...
Yeah, Tibet may be "internationally" recognised as a part of China by some foreign governments and other bodies but this may be because they want to avoid a confrontation with the Chinese government that could lead to damaging ties. Economics is, unfortunately, first and foremost on any government's agenda and angering the Chinese government that could possibly lead to lower trade or embargoes, etc, would be like shooting yourself in the foot. The same applies for their stance on Taiwan.

Having said that, it is the common person on the street that will disagree and claim that Tibet and Taiwan should be allowed independence if that is the will of its people. This was the "global independence movement" that I was referring to.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/print/news/nn11-2004/nn20041112a7.htm

According to the article, the decision to remove the comic "comes after a group of 37 local assembly members complained that passages from "Kuni ga Moeru" ("The Country is Burning") printed in the magazine's Sept. 16 and 22 editions "distorted history" by describing Japanese soldiers massacring civilians in the Nanjing Massacre of 1937. The politicians claim no such massacre took place."

If politicians can deny an incident that's in the textbooks, doesn't that say something about the validity of the textbooks being used?
Firstly, the article clearly states that the decision to delete or modify the contents of that comic was made by the publisher (Shueisha) alone. The publisher and the author both stated that "the lack of prudence in selecting and verifying the materials for the comic has caused misunderstanding among readers" and that was why it considered it to contain "inappropriate scenes". The publisher is in no way denying that the Nanjing Massacre ever took place but have only realised that the comic can be misleading to its readers (which was my exact thoughts earlier - see #180).

Secondly, I've come to realise that the Japanes government DIDN'T censor this comic at all! OK, so there was a group of 37 local assembly members that complained about the comic and claimed that no such massacre occurred but they are just a small group of politicians (In Japan, freedom of speech is allowed, like in many other countries around the world). However, they are NOT the Japanese government and do not reflect the views of the majority of the Japanese population.

Thirdly, the incident is clearly mentioned in the textbooks and the students do learn about it during their history lessons so, in my opinion, the textbooks are valid, irregardless of what a few minor politicians say about their own personal beliefs.

I think the problem here is that most people have no way to deal with the grief, because it's still largely controversial on both sides. It has been kept inside for years, so it's unsurprising that this recent explosion is as extreme as it is. But things seem to be getting better, although I worry about what's going to happen after, escpecially since I'm planning on visiting Japan this summer.
The current young generation of Asia have to realise that the modern Japan isn't the same Japan of 60 years ago. Most are probably bound/restricted in their thoughts by the views/feelings of their older relatives but they have to make their own independent move forward towards a more constructive future and learn to accept the Japanese.

I'm glad to learn that you're going to visit Japan soon. Don't worry, there shouldn't be any problems with the people over there. Most are kind and very helpful so you should have a nice time. Where are you planning to go?

Yaiba

2nd May 2005, 12:18 PM

Ditto. An empty apology because in reality they don't believe in admitting the wrong actions of their past.
You are collectively accusing the Japanese of denying the past and not being truly apologetic, which is very unfair. You cannot say that the apologies made by the Japanese government and its people are illegitimate just because there are 37 politicians that complained about the comic depicting the Nanjing Massacre, nor because the Japanese go to Yasukuni Shrine (where the majority pray for peace and honour those that needlessly died).

Yaiba

2nd May 2005, 01:04 PM

If someone kills your father would you not seek justice? Would you ever give up? The thing is that most people feel that justice has not been served.
Of course I would be upset if my father was killed and I would definitely seek justice. That is why I sympathise with many of the victims that suffered at the hands of the Japanese more than 60 years ago. However, the current Japanese have apologised for their country's past actions during those turbulent times and have paid reparations since. What more can be expected? Do you want to see those that deny the past to be punished? That would mean stripping the individual's right to freely express themselves, wouldn't it? That would be a crime in itself.

I will accept an apology if it is sincere but how sincere is the Japanese Government's apology?
Resorting to violence and threatening behaviour will not achieve anything, certainly not any sincerity. The majority of today's Japanese were not alive before and during WW2 so whilst they may feel regret over their country's dark past, it's almost impossible to feel any personal shame as they were not personally responsible. This naturally means that they're not going to say "sorry" in the same genuine manner as one who is directly responsible. Hence, I don't think the rest of Asia will never truly be satisfied until they themselves learn to accept it and move on. You may argue that the majority of today's young Germans are open and deeply sorry for their country's past but their psyche is much different to that of the Japanese so you cannot really compare the two.

TylerY

2nd May 2005, 01:55 PM

Firstly, the article clearly states that the decision to delete or modify the contents of that comic was made by the publisher (Shueisha) alone. The publisher and the author both stated that "the lack of prudence in selecting and verifying the materials for the comic has caused misunderstanding among readers" and that was why it considered it to contain "inappropriate scenes". The publisher is in no way denying that the Nanjing Massacre ever took place but have only realised that the comic can be misleading to its readers (which was my exact thoughts earlier - see #180).

Secondly, I've come to realise that the Japanes government DIDN'T censor this comic at all! OK, so there was a group of 37 local assembly members that complained about the comic and claimed that no such massacre occurred but they are just a small group of politicians (In Japan, freedom of speech is allowed, like in many other countries around the world). However, they are NOT the Japanese government and do not reflect the views of the majority of the Japanese population.

Thirdly, the incident is clearly mentioned in the textbooks and the students do learn about it during their history lessons so, in my opinion, the textbooks are valid, irregardless of what a few minor politicians say about their own personal beliefs.

The series may have been discontinued by its publisher, but it was obviously done under external pressure and influence. Japan does indeed have free speech, but they chose to waive that right and take the comic off their magazine once politicians got involved (a wise choice, actually. Who would want to deal with politicians). The politician's views may not reflect the views of the general population, but the general population doesn't seem to have very strong feelings about facing the truth, either, if they're willing to withdraw a comic strip just because a few assemply members complained about it.

I'm glad to learn that you're going to visit Japan soon. Don't worry, there shouldn't be any problems with the people over there. Most are kind and very helpful so you should have a nice time. Where are you planning to go?

I've been there once before, so I know what you mean. Last time was only for a few days, when we wandered around Tokyo and Kyoto. This time I want to take my time and explore some more famous places, like Mt Fuji, Osaka castle, and maybe the peace park, and hopefully buy an iaito and new hakama/gi set. =D

TylerY

2nd May 2005, 02:22 PM

Yeah, Tibet may be "internationally" recognised as a part of China by some foreign governments and other bodies but this may be because they want to avoid a confrontation with the Chinese government that could lead to damaging ties. Economics is, unfortunately, first and foremost on any government's agenda and angering the Chinese government that could possibly lead to lower trade or embargoes, etc, would be like shooting yourself in the foot. The same applies for their stance on Taiwan.

Having said that, it is the common person on the street that will disagree and claim that Tibet and Taiwan should be allowed independence if that is the will of its people. This was the "global independence movement" that I was referring to.

But then the common person doesn't think about what he would think if it were a part of his own country that wants to secede. Britain wanted to keep its 13 colonies. The USA wanted to keep its South. Canada wants to keep Quebec. It's just hypocritical for, say a New Yorker, to say "China should give up Taiwan and Tibet because their people want to leave", when his own government fought a huge war against his own country to keep it together.

ISSAC RU

2nd May 2005, 02:39 PM

The future of Taiwan and Tibet will only be decide by the good
will of all Chinese people , not some hippie " self-determination theory''.

Yaiba

2nd May 2005, 03:21 PM

The series may have been discontinued by its publisher, but it was obviously done under external pressure and influence. Japan does indeed have free speech, but they chose to waive that right and take the comic off their magazine once politicians got involved (a wise choice, actually. Who would want to deal with politicians). The politician's views may not reflect the views of the general population, but the general population doesn't seem to have very strong feelings about facing the truth, either, if they're willing to withdraw a comic strip just because a few assemply members complained about it.
Hmmm... well, I agree that there was external pressure from this small group of politicians but I don't think the publisher suspended the comic solely because of them. From the publisher's point of view, I don't believe it was a matter of not publishing the truth (ie that the Nanjing Massacre occurred) but rather that they realised they have a responsibilty for depicting the incident (which is sensitive to Japanese as well) in an appropriate manner (considering the Weekly Young Jump is targeted mainly for a young audience - NB. Most other violent and "sadistic" comics in Japan are not based on historical events but are just fiction). The Japan Times article even wrote that though the comic was suspended, the publisher was to resume publication once the appropriate modifications were made (although I don't know if the resumption has yet occurred) so this certainly wasn't censorship by the government.

If you look all around you, you'll see video games (such as those made by EA) that glorify war by killing dehumanised Nazi, Japanese or (even recently) Iraqi troops, which I think is very sad and very inappropriate for young people because it doesn't teach them the true horrors of war in a calm and collected way. The same can be said for this particular comic, as it could cause a misunderstanding among the readers. Textbooks and documentaries, on the other hand, are used in a controlled and rational manner at schools to teach the students of what happened in the past. This is the most responsible method and it is adopted in schools all across Japan, which is a reflection of how the Japanese have faced the truth. I admit some still refuse to accept the truth but this isn't in epidemic proportions, as portrayed by some anti-Japanese activists.

I've been there once before, so I know what you mean. Last time was only for a few days, when we wandered around Tokyo and Kyoto. This time I want to take my time and explore some more famous places, like Mt Fuji, Osaka castle, and maybe the peace park, and hopefully buy an iaito and new hakama/gi set. =D
Nice!! I've only ever lived/visited in Kanto (ie region of Tokyo, Yokohama, etc) and Kyushu so I would dearly like to visit Kyoto, Osaka, Hiroshima, etc in the future as well. I hope you have an enjoyable time!!

Oh, isn't it cheaper to buy those things from Japan through an order and have them shipped to you in Canada? If you buy kendo stuff while you're in Japan then you get slugged with the Japanese sales tax but this is waived when the purchases are made from outside of Japan (which can be a saving of up to 50% depending on the item) so maybe it's a good idea to just have a look around in the shops, although I admit it will be tempting to buy it there and then. :happy:

Yaiba

2nd May 2005, 04:09 PM

But then the common person doesn't think about what he would think if it were a part of his own country that wants to secede. Britain wanted to keep its 13 colonies. The USA wanted to keep its South. Canada wants to keep Quebec. It's just hypocritical for, say a New Yorker, to say "China should give up Taiwan and Tibet because their people want to leave", when his own government fought a huge war against his own country to keep it together.

Yeah, what you're saying is spot on... it would be hypocritical. Now, apply that thought on the issue of "history" and look at, say, Japan and, for example, China. While the Chinese demonstrators accuse the Japanese government of white-washing history, the Chinese government is reportedly equally responsible for distorting history and facts by inaccurately teaching their citizens about certain events. Isn't that hypocrisy? Isn't that double-standards?

Again, I'd like to refer everyone to this BBC Online article - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4473415.stm

Unfortunately, disputes over history will never disappear as along as this pedantic culture and narrow-mindedness, which we see in every part of the world, continues to exist. As I'm a realist, I believe it will continue. However, rather than get upset over it, I've learnt to deal with it. I try to apply this philosophy with every aspect of my life, and kendo has helped me a lot in doing this.

Jearom

2nd May 2005, 05:46 PM

The future of Taiwan and Tibet will only be decide by the good
will of all Chinese people , not some hippie " self-determination theory''.
Would that be democracy you are talking about?
The nation of Japan has much to answer for still and much to apologize for as well but so has China.
I think full restitution should be made to those who suffered from the actions of Japans war-time aggression.
But I also think that Tibet should be freed and Taiwan should be left alone to decide its own destiny.
China`s continuing economic progress is heartening to see and should be seen as an example for many other developing countries.
But the lack of free speach, harassing of Falun Gong, the occupation of Tibet, the pressuring and bullying of Taiwan and imprisonment of dissidents should end.
Almost every country has its share of black marks in its history.
It`s a shame that we don`t confront these festering wound in order for them to heal.
But some countries are creating them now and that should not be.
IMHO

KhawMengLee

2nd May 2005, 10:23 PM

You are collectively accusing the Japanese of denying the past and not being truly apologetic, which is very unfair. You cannot say that the apologies made by the Japanese government and its people are illegitimate just because there are 37 politicians that complained about the comic depicting the Nanjing Massacre, nor because the Japanese go to Yasukuni Shrine (where the majority pray for peace and honour those that needlessly died).

Dude, those 37 politicians put on the heat and got the comic removed. If this was Germany they'd be out of a job for what they said. Its like saying Auchwitz didn't exist.

Apologizing one second and then not doing anything to stop men in power who pull this kind of crap means that there is no sincerety in the apology.

Now I've been pretty passionate about this issue and I'll tell you why. I've heard people supporting Japan say China has no right to complain because it has commited similar violations...I'm Malaysian, my country like Singapore, has never invaded anyone and is a peaceful society.

My Grandfather had to hide the full lenght of the occupation because the Japanese would have beheaded him for being a member of the home guard, his cousin, my granduncle in the same unit was caught and bayonetted. My Grandmother and Grandaunts had to hide in hidden huts in the forest for fear the occupation troops would rape them. In fact my Grandmother was caught and molested by two soldiers and didn't get raped because she had her period(considered unclean).

Japanese troops for a laugh used to force people in my family's village to climb trees to get them coconuts and prod them along with their bayonets. Force, you to drink litres of water till your tummy was full then jump on your stomach. They would slaughter pigs then throw their carcasses into Mosques(Muslim Temples).

It makes me mad to see people who have never had to suffer this, sit there and say, oh, China has done worse or oh, get over it.

Japan has never apologized to my country or my family. But, I have put this behind me...but I have not forgotten and I will not take an insult like covering up wartime atrocities to go unpassed.

You feel my statement insults the Japanese by saying they are insincere. Well, I feel they insult me by doing exactly as I stated before. The fact that they can publish a book to be used in schools that downplays the Nanking Massacre and deny's the comfort women issue is disgusting. Even if it is less than 1% of the nation it is still a book used in schools and it si still a book sanctioned by the government. The fact they can support a book denying the holocaust of Nanking and then ban a comic acknowledging it shows that they do not want the truth to come out.

If this is the case then how can any apology be sincere?

As far as I am concerned the Japanese Government, representing the people, have never truly apologized.

007

3rd May 2005, 12:34 AM

Update :

China Nationalist party 's Chairman has visited People's Republic of China.
Chancellor Lien Chen has just met the Chairman of the China Communist Party , Hujintao.

Historical moment for reunification of the Great China Republics.

he is just a fool who is angry that he lost in an embarrassing presdential election and does not represent the majority of the viewpoints of the Taiwanese people. And he is from China in the first place anyways so i don't see any historical moment here, just one of your "comrades" returning to your country.

samurai999

3rd May 2005, 01:07 AM

Would that be democracy you are talking about?
The nation of Japan has much to answer for still and much to apologize for as well but so has China.
I think full restitution should be made to those who suffered from the actions of Japans war-time aggression.
But I also think that Tibet should be freed and Taiwan should be left alone to decide its own destiny.
China`s continuing economic progress is heartening to see and should be seen as an example for many other developing countries.
But the lack of free speach, harassing of Falun Gong, the occupation of Tibet, the pressuring and bullying of Taiwan and imprisonment of dissidents should end.
Almost every country has its share of black marks in its history.
It`s a shame that we don`t confront these festering wound in order for them to heal.
But some countries are creating them now and that should not be.
IMHO

True in all cases, but what do you mean by FULL restitution?

Tim

Yo...osh!

3rd May 2005, 01:13 AM

In response:

"One China, two systems" is inherently flawed because the Taiwanese system allows legislative change, referandum, and Constitutional reform which may conflict with One China. E.g. creating One China and One Taiwan.

On "self-determination", it was first formally addressed by US President Woodrow Wilson after WWI. It is contained in the Charter of the UN ("principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples"). This principle is also formally affirmed in Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The above treaties have been signed by over 100 countries.

With regard to US and Canada, in my opinion they can be distinguished on facts. Taiwan was a former colony of Japan and China formally seded territory to Japan. A closer example to Taiwan's case is probably East Timor, which was a Portugese Colony before Indonesia layed sovereignty claims. Because Indonesia wasn't such a militarily powerful country, the UN allowed and oversaw East Timorese referandum on independence. The East Timorese voted 70%+ in favour of independence.

On Free trade with China, money is not always the MOST IMPORTANT thing. For every Taiwanese businessmen that strikes gold in China, there are 3 or 4 failing.

Anyway, I think what makes a country progressive and strong is not what the majority have economically, but what the minority have. E.g. equal opportunities for disabled people, pensions for elderly, welfare provisions for indigenous people (which Taiwan has).

As for "Taiwanese govt brainwashing", you will find that there are pro-KMT newspapers and pro-Taiwan newspapers in Taiwan. So there is a real mix of diverse views. Since I am in Australia and an university student, I prefer academic material in English.

But back on topic of Japan, I feel confident in saying that 99.9% of Taiwanese people do not resent Japan, even though we were a former colony and treated unequally. This is from my personal experience speaking with people. I think people have just moved on and forgiven.

In fact most Taiwanese really respect the Japanese people for their orderliness, cleanliness, far-sighted infrastructure, etiquette and attention to detail (especially the older generation). It is often regarded as something to aspire to. Also, in Taiwan most people have cable television which contains AT LEAST 4 Japanese channels (including Japanese news which shows the Japanese point of view on present events).

True, as Meng has pointed out, the Japanese govt could always do more. However, the real numbers of the Rape of Nanjing and atrocities committed in WWII can be found in bookshops and newspapers in Japan. Therefore an educated, well-informed Japanese person will likely be sensitive of your grievances.

I understand from Meng's perspective his family's trauma, but I think on a person level towards Japanese, it's just so much better to forgive, forget the past and be friends.

mingshi

3rd May 2005, 01:18 AM

he is just a fool who is angry that he lost in an embarrassing presdential election and does not represent the majority of the viewpoints of the Taiwanese people..
Yeah. I feel sorry for Lien Chen. Expect some entertaining news tomorrow as he returns back to Taiwan. A lot of eggs and tomatoes are waiting at the airport... :rolleyes:

Yo...osh!

3rd May 2005, 01:25 AM

he is just a fool who is angry that he lost in an embarrassing presdential election and does not represent the majority of the viewpoints of the Taiwanese people. And he is from China in the first place anyways so i don't see any historical moment here, just one of your "comrades" returning to your country.

I feel the same. I think he is someone from the "martial law" era who can't accept electoral defeat. I mean, he has lost 2 elections in a row. Any other mature leader who believes in democracy would get the message and stand down. But I guess he prefers more "autocratic" rule and therefore prefers to side with the mainland.

Jearom

3rd May 2005, 01:50 AM

True in all cases, but what do you mean by FULL restitution?
If you`re asking for a particular sum, well I dunno really, I guess you could find some precedents in similar cases around the world.
I do believe though that those women who were used as sex-slaves during WW2 by the japanese armed forces should be compensated for their traumas.
The people involved during this time, on either side, are getting fewer and older.
Now is the last chance to ask forgivness and make amends before that generation fades into history.

KhawMengLee

3rd May 2005, 01:53 AM

he is just a fool who is angry that he lost in an embarrassing presdential election and does not represent the majority of the viewpoints of the Taiwanese people.

Taiwan's President Invites China to Talks By WILLIAM FOREMAN, Associated Press Writer
45 minutes ago

TAIPEI, Taiwan - Taiwan's leader on Monday invited rival China to talks under the principles of "peace, democracy and parity," echoing a call by Taiwan's opposition leader while on a visit to the mainland.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050502/ap_on_re_as/taiwan_china/nc:731;_ylt=AtYUj2jqAYgKmy9KLE_ORMIBxg8F;_ylu=X3oD MTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

And he is from China in the first place anyways so i don't see any historical moment here, just one of your "comrades" returning to your country.

So are all Taiwanese at one point or another. My Great Granduncle Khaw Oo Kek was born in Malaysia but returned to China after earning a medical degree from England and serving as a Major for the British Army. He fled with Chiang Kai Shek to Taiwan and formed the first Taiwanese Medical Academy. We were originally from Fujian in China, does that mean his family doesn't count?

We are all Chinese and originally from China. Same with Taiwan and I hope one day that they can re-unify.

The Chinese Government is something that needs to be phased out in the long run but he Taiwanese government is no bright picture as well. Taiwan's parliament was a shining example of democrazy when I watched MP's brawling with each other in Parliament and one lady MP taking off her shoe to smack another man on the head with it...amazing stuff. Or even better, the MP who stabbed himself on the speakers podium in protest to corruption allegations...Funny thingslike this happen in Taiwan's Parliament from time to time.

I think this was best captured in one of Yuen Bao(Hong Kong martial arts actor)'s cop movies where a cop from HK teams up with a Mainland Cop and a Taiwanese Cop to solve a crime. As they passed a TV they see the brawl in the Taiwanese Parliament and the Mainland cop says, "So...this is democrasy."

KhawMengLee

3rd May 2005, 02:09 AM

But back on topic of Japan, I feel confident in saying that 99.9% of Taiwanese people do not resent Japan, even though we were a former colony and treated unequally. This is from my personal experience speaking with people. I think people have just moved on and forgiven.

In fact most Taiwanese really respect the Japanese people for their orderliness, cleanliness, far-sighted infrastructure, etiquette and attention to detail (especially the older generation). It is often regarded as something to aspire to. Also, in Taiwan most people have cable television which contains AT LEAST 4 Japanese channels (including Japanese news which shows the Japanese point of view on present events).

True, as Meng has pointed out, the Japanese govt could always do more. However, the real numbers of the Rape of Nanjing and atrocities committed in WWII can be found in bookshops and newspapers in Japan. Therefore an educated, well-informed Japanese person will likely be sensitive of your grievances.

I understand from Meng's perspective his family's trauma, but I think on a person level towards Japanese, it's just so much better to forgive, forget the past and be friends.

Yep, as I said in my first post...Japan, like all cultures, have created some of the most beautifull inspirational philosophies, artworks, culture and people in history. Like all cultures, there is good we can create and bad...

To many who have met me, I am a Japanophile and Dr Hentai, to most who have read my most recent posts I seem to be anti japanese. I am neither...I admire aspects of Japanese culture and also am proud of my own heritage and like everyone, am merely, defending it. For what my people and country suffered, I think it dishonors their struggle and sacrifice for someone to downplay and try to erase it. I, like many here, am merely doing what any decent soul would do.

I have never hated the Japanese...you judge people as individuals, not as a group. If I didn't put aside my past I would not be here ya?:wink:

TylerY

3rd May 2005, 06:41 AM

Hmmm... well, I agree that there was external pressure from this small group of politicians but I don't think the publisher suspended the comic solely because of them. From the publisher's point of view, I don't believe it was a matter of not publishing the truth (ie that the Nanjing Massacre occurred) but rather that they realised they have a responsibilty for depicting the incident (which is sensitive to Japanese as well) in an appropriate manner (considering the Weekly Young Jump is targeted mainly for a young audience - NB. Most other violent and "sadistic" comics in Japan are not based on historical events but are just fiction). The Japan Times article even wrote that though the comic was suspended, the publisher was to resume publication once the appropriate modifications were made (although I don't know if the resumption has yet occurred) so this certainly wasn't censorship by the government.

Just out of curiosity, I went to Young Jump's website http://yj.shueisha.co.jp/index2.html), and much to my surprise, it doesn't seem to a magazine that targets young children, but rather older teenage boys, mainly because of all the pretty girls in bikinis and whatnot. This, coupled with Japan's incredible leniency towards violent manga, makes me think that the decision to withdraw Kuni ga Moeru was more based on the politicians' nudges than concern over young childrens' influences. Also, the comic was discontinued AFTER being originally published, and was only withdrawn once Shueisha began receiving complaints.

Not that any of us can make any real judgements about the manga until we've read it ourselves. I'm actaully really curious about what was in the manga and want to read it. I can't find any place to download it on the internet, however.

Yeah, what you're saying is spot on... it would be hypocritical. Now, apply that thought on the issue of "history" and look at, say, Japan and, for example, China. While the Chinese demonstrators accuse the Japanese government of white-washing history, the Chinese government is reportedly equally responsible for distorting history and facts by inaccurately teaching their citizens about certain events. Isn't that hypocrisy? Isn't that double-standards?

I think the only thing I can say about this is that, there is no portion of Japanese history that is left out of Chinese textbooks. Important matters that relate to Japan and China are generally included in textbooks. What is left out affects China and China alone. Not so with the Japanese textbooks, which leave out important elements of Chinese, Korean and other Asian countries' histories. China's history books are glossing over elements of its own history but Japan's are covering up what happened in another country. Both of these are no good, but if you look at it in that sense, it's not really THAT hypocritical.

Oh, isn't it cheaper to buy those things from Japan through an order and have them shipped to you in Canada? If you buy kendo stuff while you're in Japan then you get slugged with the Japanese sales tax but this is waived when the purchases are made from outside of Japan (which can be a saving of up to 50% depending on the item) so maybe it's a good idea to just have a look around in the shops, although I admit it will be tempting to buy it there and then. :happy:

I never thought about that. It'll probably be around the same price though, because Canadian import fees are a nightmare. I bought a BB gun from the US once, and the landing fees ended up costing more than the entire package. I'd hate to see what those customs guys would do to a sword.

As they passed a TV they see the brawl in the Taiwanese Parliament and the Mainland cop says, "So...this is democrasy."

Ahaha, That's an awesome image.

KhawMengLee

3rd May 2005, 08:55 AM

samurai999

3rd May 2005, 09:48 AM

If you`re asking for a particular sum, well I dunno really, I guess you could find some precedents in similar cases around the world.
I do believe though that those women who were used as sex-slaves during WW2 by the japanese armed forces should be compensated for their traumas.
The people involved during this time, on either side, are getting fewer and older.
Now is the last chance to ask forgivness and make amends before that generation fades into history.

Well this is the area i was getting into earlier. (if you read my earlier responses) Who should "pay" for it (i say this because you mention compensation)? and.. How far do we raise the bar? The thing that made ME not too content was the fact that even though my family was not part of those massacres at all (and my grand father was on the US Armed Forces), they want the Jp govt to "pay" for it since a lot of the Japanese WW2 veterans are all gone. What does this mean? My mom, who is a Permanent Resident of the US but not a citizen will most likely have to pay too? That is also wrong too. This also affects me. The grand son of a Japanese citizen who participated in the Pacific theatre on Macarthurs side...

Tim

007

3rd May 2005, 11:37 AM

Taiwan's President Invites China to Talks By WILLIAM FOREMAN, Associated Press Writer
45 minutes ago

TAIPEI, Taiwan - Taiwan's leader on Monday invited rival China to talks under the principles of "peace, democracy and parity," echoing a call by Taiwan's opposition leader while on a visit to the mainland.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050502/ap_on_re_as/taiwan_china/nc:731;_ylt=AtYUj2jqAYgKmy9KLE_ORMIBxg8F;_ylu=X3oD MTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

So are all Taiwanese at one point or another. My Great Granduncle Khaw Oo Kek was born in Malaysia but returned to China after earning a medical degree from England and serving as a Major for the British Army. He fled with Chiang Kai Shek to Taiwan and formed the first Taiwanese Medical Academy. We were originally from Fujian in China, does that mean his family doesn't count?

We are all Chinese and originally from China. Same with Taiwan and I hope one day that they can re-unify.

The Chinese Government is something that needs to be phased out in the long run but he Taiwanese government is no bright picture as well. Taiwan's parliament was a shining example of democrazy when I watched MP's brawling with each other in Parliament and one lady MP taking off her shoe to smack another man on the head with it...amazing stuff. Or even better, the MP who stabbed himself on the speakers podium in protest to corruption allegations...Funny thingslike this happen in Taiwan's Parliament from time to time.

I think this was best captured in one of Yuen Bao(Hong Kong martial arts actor)'s cop movies where a cop from HK teams up with a Mainland Cop and a Taiwanese Cop to solve a crime. As they passed a TV they see the brawl in the Taiwanese Parliament and the Mainland cop says, "So...this is democrasy."

What i meant by he is "chinese" or "wai shen ren" (literally mean outside people) is because after WW II his Lien Chen's father was an immigrant to Taiwan. He then went to Japan to study and returned back to China because he believes that he is a true Chinese. He married a chinese women there and thus born Lien chen who was born in China. They then ultimately moved back to Taiwan. So, Taiwan is clearly not their mother country.
To the comment about the brawling. Every government has its own problems and heck, look at Howard Dean, who did a big "hee how" at his campaign. The few who are brawling are radicals and extremists. You are generalizing if you believe that every Taiwanese politican are like that. Oh yeah, and i think that politicians brawling and freely expressing their viewpoints are much better than a certain country in Asia whose government secretly jail, exile and even assassinate people who have different opinions than that of the government.

Yo...osh!

3rd May 2005, 11:48 AM

The Chinese Government is something that needs to be phased out in the long run but he Taiwanese government is no bright picture as well. Taiwan's parliament was a shining example of democrazy when I watched MP's brawling with each other in Parliament and one lady MP taking off her shoe to smack another man on the head with it...amazing stuff. Or even better, the MP who stabbed himself on the speakers podium in protest to corruption allegations...Funny thingslike this happen in Taiwan's Parliament from time to time.

I think this was best captured in one of Yuen Bao(Hong Kong martial arts actor)'s cop movies where a cop from HK teams up with a Mainland Cop and a Taiwanese Cop to solve a crime. As they passed a TV they see the brawl in the Taiwanese Parliament and the Mainland cop says, "So...this is democrasy."

I apologise for straying off topic again. I totally agree that Taiwan's democracy is not completely "bright". When I watch the politicans fight in parliament, I always wonder why are they doing it? Why are they embarrasing themselves and giving out such a bad image?

I did some research, I think one has to understand the background. In my opinion, such uncivilised behaviour can be regarded as the growing pains of democracy.

During nearly 40 years of Martial Law, the KMT National Assemblymen refused to stand for re-election, which meant that opposition parties could not be formed and challenge for power. When martial law was finally lifted in 1987, the Assemblymen from the mainland (some of whom were 80 years+ and near death) refused to retire and it took a decision by the Grand Council of Justices (I.e. equivalent of Supreme Court in US) to force them to retire.

During the 1990's, the opposition parties fought for democratic reform, which was often stymied by the KMT who wanted to "keep power within" whilst giving the outward appearance of democracy. For example, they often attempted to pass bills through legislature in violation of parliamentary rules, and to give the president powers which made him less accountable to the people.

Whilst fighting in parliament can't be excused, most were fighting to change the former autocratic style of government. They encountered people who wanted to cling to power for themselves. The following are some changes they have successfully implemented:

1) Separation of courts from executive branch. Since then, the Grand Justices have held several govt legislation "unconstitutional" for breach of fundamental rights.
2) Before, prosecutors and police were able to arrest, search and detain anyone they wished. This was abolished in 1997 by the legislature.
3) The "emergency powers" that the president has to declare martial law has been significantly curbed.

YOu have to remember that the US also encountered growing pains in their democracy. Presidential assasinations and a civil war being highlights.

Just my 2 cents.

KhawMengLee

3rd May 2005, 12:28 PM

To the comment about the brawling. Every government has its own problems and heck, look at Howard Dean, who did a big "hee how" at his campaign. The few who are brawling are radicals and extremists. You are generalizing if you believe that every Taiwanese politican are like that. Oh yeah, and i think that politicians brawling and freely expressing their viewpoints are much better than a certain country in Asia whose government secretly jail, exile and even assassinate people who have different opinions than that of the government.

I was joking dude...tho' I find the fights entertaining;)

KhawMengLee

3rd May 2005, 12:32 PM

YOu have to remember that the US also encountered growing pains in their democracy. Presidential assasinations and a civil war being highlights.

Just my 2 cents.

You can always tell a matured democracy when, in parliament, they learn to bolt the chairs to the floor. :wink:

KhawMengLee

3rd May 2005, 12:37 PM

Oh yeah, and i think that politicians brawling and freely expressing their viewpoints are much better than a certain country...whose government secretly jail, exile and even assassinate people who have different opinions than that of the government.

Er...Cold War USA?

in asia:

er...Indonesia? Philipines?...hehehehe

************************************************** ******

ISSAC RU

3rd May 2005, 01:29 PM

YOu have to remember that the US also encountered growing pains in their democracy. Presidential assasinations and a civil war being highlights.

Just my 2 cents.

When KMT was in power , US supported them because they were anti-communist. When the US sees someone was even more supportive about
anti-communist , they supported the Democrats. When the Democrats got
into power and starts to shaken the situation in Taiwan , eventually moving
towards independence , the US called STOP. When Democrats starts to
move towards the center , the US starts to bragging about how much threats is the
chinese posing to Taiwan , which made them start to shifting to the left.
The most evil power behind all these struggle is mostly US.
One hand they say they support the idea of One China in the world.
Another hand they tries to keep their " Unsinkable Air-carrier'' in the pacific under their watch to keep the Chinese dominating the Pacific .

The most embrassing and humaliating thing is the democrats+independence terroists wanted to become a watch dog of The Americans and Japanese.
It just sickens most of the Chinese in the world.

TylerY

3rd May 2005, 02:35 PM

Er...Cold War USA?

Not even Cold War. I hear you can get your phone lines tapped without a warrant nowadays.

Yaiba

3rd May 2005, 05:43 PM

Dude, those 37 politicians put on the heat and got the comic removed. If this was Germany they'd be out of a job for what they said. Its like saying Auchwitz didn't exist.
Yes, those politicians may have indeed been put out of their jobs had they been German politicians (NB. For those not familiar with German law, it is a criminal offence to deny the Holocaust, thus freedom of speech on this matter is denied to the individual by the state) but Japan respects the individual's right to freedom of speech and it isn't the same country as Germany so you shouldn't compare the two. Although I deeply sympathise with you and your relatives, I get the impression that you condone stripping one's right to free speech, which is unfortunate.

[I'm diverging here a little off the topic but it may be of interest for some of the readers to know that there are many historians across the world that dispute the Holocaust ever took place - they call themselves "Revisionists" and are apparently growing in numbers each year. Among them are even Jewish historians who claim that the alleged war crimes committed by the Nazis (eg genocide by gas chambers in Auschwitz) were all a fabrication and was used as propaganda by the Allies and the Soviets! Don't believe me? Well, the internet is there for you to make your own choice. Whilst it may sound unbelievable at first, their evidence and strong arguments does seem to reveal why there has been such an exponential rise in the number of arrests/convictions of Germans for publicly denying the Holocaust in recent years. Now, I know this is a sensitive topic but isn't it the right of the individual to believe in what they choose to believe in? If the answer is NO, then it would constitute as the same as persecution, wouldn't it???]

Apologizing one second and then not doing anything to stop men in power who pull this kind of crap means that there is no sincerety in the apology.
Hmmm... well, what do you suggest the common Japanese person on the street does then? You can only do so much as protest if you want to stand up (in a civilised way) against something. Most Australians believe that the Australian government should apologise for the past injustices to the native Aborigines but they decided against that. Large demonstrations and rallies were fruitless. The majority of people, nonetheless, did apologise nationwide and continue to do so on a personal level to show their regret over our country's dark past. Whilst the Aborignes regret the government's decision, most have accepted that the people of Australia (who were not alive in the days when the White-man used to leisurely hunt Aborigines in Tasmania) are sorry.

It makes me mad to see people who have never had to suffer this, sit there and say, oh, China has done worse or oh, get over it.
(See my comments above). I'm just saying that it's not worth getting angry at the majority of today's Japanese just because of a handful of other Japanese that choose to deny the past. Most are aware and ashamed of their country's dark past and they do sympathise with the many victims of Asia on a personal level.

I know that many of today's Japanese want to move on from those times of the war. It's a natural thing. The crimes committed by their ancestors are not a reflection of their own characters so they also get upset or feel sensitive when the topic is brought up each time. It becomes especially awkward for them when they have to listen to things like "This is what YOUR country did to OURS" and "YOUR country was so evil", etc, etc.

In my opinion, pursuing this "sincere apology" from the Japanese is counter-productive because, inevitably, the Japanese people (especially the young generation) will begin to resent their Asian neighbours for not letting them move on. Is that what the rest of Asia wants? More hostility?

You feel my statement insults the Japanese by saying they are insincere. Well, I feel they insult me by doing exactly as I stated before. The fact that they can publish a book to be used in schools that downplays the Nanking Massacre and deny's the comfort women issue is disgusting. Even if it is less than 1% of the nation it is still a book used in schools and it si still a book sanctioned by the government. The fact they can support a book denying the holocaust of Nanking and then ban a comic acknowledging it shows that they do not want the truth to come out.
Firstly, none of the books sanctioned by the Japanese government deny the Nanjing Massacre but, admittedly, how they teach it varies by the amount of detail used. Secondly, the Japanese government didn't send soldiers or police to storm into the publisher's offices to force them to stop the publication of the comic. Nor did they threaten them in any other way so it was not a ban/censorship as you have described. The decision to suspend the comic was made by the publisher, albeit under pressure from a handful of politicians (but NOT the entire government as you have described).

You have to try to understand that the main interest of the Japanese Education Ministry is to ensure that the younger-generation Japanese do not lose faith in their country while they study their dark side of history (ie Nanjing, etc). If they didn't want the truth to come out then they simply wouldn't include the atrocities into their curriculum. Wouldn't you agree?

Yaiba

3rd May 2005, 06:10 PM

Just out of curiosity, I went to Young Jump's website http://yj.shueisha.co.jp/index2.html), and much to my surprise, it doesn't seem to a magazine that targets young children, but rather older teenage boys, mainly because of all the pretty girls in bikinis and whatnot. This, coupled with Japan's incredible leniency towards violent manga, makes me think that the decision to withdraw Kuni ga Moeru was more based on the politicians' nudges than concern over young childrens' influences. Also, the comic was discontinued AFTER being originally published, and was only withdrawn once Shueisha began receiving complaints.
Hey TylerY, I never said Young Jump was targeted for young children... I said "young audience" which includes older teenage boys. Right? :wink:

Also, note that most of the violent manga-comics that you see on the shelves are FICTION and aren't based on historical events that are deeply sensitive to Japanese as well. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion of why the comic was suspended because only the publisher knows the real reason for its actions. All we can do is speculate and saying things like "That must've been the reason!!" would be inappropriate.

I never thought about that. It'll probably be around the same price though, because Canadian import fees are a nightmare. I bought a BB gun from the US once, and the landing fees ended up costing more than the entire package. I'd hate to see what those customs guys would do to a sword.
You should consider yourself lucky to be able to import a BB gun... Australians have to smuggle them in through customs (Disclaimer: I have never attempted this and do not recommend others to do so as it would constitute breaking Australian law). :nervous:

Yaiba

3rd May 2005, 07:39 PM

Er...walk into any 7-11/mini mart in Japan and hentai/porn-manga is placed right next to where pokomon is. Now violence in manga is not and issue and neither is sex because theres plenty of it available and remember WYJ printed it and stopped after 'external' pressure.
I'm aware of this as I've lived in Japan for many years previously. There is no denying that there was external pressure from the 37 politicians but what I'm stressing is that the comic was based on a historical incident that is deeply sensitive to many Japanese as well, and I believe the politicians' outcry only brought this to the publisher's attention. In my opinion (and please note that I'm only speculating here), the publisher's action to suspend the comic came as an indirect result of the politicians that were concerned.

Japanese are aware that any bad publicity (especially when politicians start hounding them) can damage their image/reputation, and inaction can often cause it to worsen. Personally, I think it should've just remained in publication as I believe it's up to the individual to make up their own mind on whatever they read/see/hear. However, having said that, the Weekly Young Jump is aimed predominantly at a young audience, which is why it probably led to the publisher taking the action that it did.

Now...no matter how you want to try to picture the truth...the fact is the Nanking massacre was horror...its just a question of how much you can stomach. There is no way you can put it in a "nice" light...when you behead, rape, torture, bayonet pregnant women there is no way you can picture it in a sensitive way so as not to offend the senses.
I can understand where you're coming from. Murder, rape, torture, etc are obvously all terrible acts and it certainly would be wrong to try putting those all in a "nice light". However, have you ever considered that such acts could also be portrayed in a "worse light" where the criminals (in this case the Japanese troops) are collectively depicted as evil, inhumane, "sadistic" demons (which the media is very capable of doing)? I once met an elderly Japanese man who served in the Japanese Imperial Army and he told me that despite it was against his inner wishes, he was forced by his superiors to kill defenceless citizens and POWs. Now, putting aside any prejudices, how would you think he would feel if he was portrayed as some butcher? This is why most Japanese want to move on!!

"Appropriate modifications"? Ooooo...lets edit out this kai gunto the officer is using to behead the civilian and place in a lightsaber...or Oooo...lets have a smile on the lady on this page getting raped...no in fact, lets not put it in alltogether...
Now you're just showing an immature side of your character. Do you honestly expect others to believe that I meant all those things you wrote above when I said "appropriate modifications"? Please grow up and act like your age...

I like how you are trying to say that when polititians complain and say Nanking didn't happen and get a comic that says it did 'pulled' isn't censorship....riiiight.
When you can show me evidence that the Japanese government sent soldiers or police to storm the publisher's building and confiscate their comic, or if they threatened them in any other way, then I'll concede that it was censorship.

You are saying the comic was pulled because of the sensitive nature of the content? So they can whitewash the Nanking incident but they cannot print a graphic account of the worst case scenario? This sounds pretty lame dude...
I honestly do sympathise with what your relatives had to endure more than 60 years ago but I'm equally sympathetic to you now for seeing you resort to this spiteful attitude. I'm just glad to read in your other post that you still respect Japanese culture, art, etc, and I hope you realise through them that, despite the words and actions of a few politicians (which can embroil the entire government), the people of Japan are regretful that their country was responsible for the large injustices inflicted on their Asian neighbours. The ball is largely in your court now...

Yaiba

3rd May 2005, 08:13 PM

Thanks for your comments Yo...osh!. I'm relieved that there's someone on this forum who is thinking along the similar line.

But back on topic of Japan, I feel confident in saying that 99.9% of Taiwanese people do not resent Japan, even though we were a former colony and treated unequally. This is from my personal experience speaking with people. I think people have just moved on and forgiven.

In fact most Taiwanese really respect the Japanese people for their orderliness, cleanliness, far-sighted infrastructure, etiquette and attention to detail (especially the older generation). It is often regarded as something to aspire to. Also, in Taiwan most people have cable television which contains AT LEAST 4 Japanese channels (including Japanese news which shows the Japanese point of view on present events).

True, as Meng has pointed out, the Japanese govt could always do more. However, the real numbers of the Rape of Nanjing and atrocities committed in WWII can be found in bookshops and newspapers in Japan. Therefore an educated, well-informed Japanese person will likely be sensitive of your grievances.

I understand from Meng's perspective his family's trauma, but I think on a person level towards Japanese, it's just so much better to forgive, forget the past and be friends.

Yes, the Japanese government could do a lot more, especially in compensation/reparation for the victims of the past, and I hope they will achieve this in the prospect of building much healthier relations with their Asian neighbours, which will be beneficial for all in the region. Having said that, let's not forget that the government has done a lot (through its own initiatives as well as through pressure by the international community) since the end of WW2. We all tend to concentrate on the bad things of something and forget about its good things.

007

3rd May 2005, 08:41 PM

Not even Cold War. I hear you can get your phone lines tapped without a warrant nowadays.

you mean the patriot act??

samurai999

4th May 2005, 12:28 AM

Speaking about "the Rape of nanking". Didn't the author of that book commit suicide?

Tim

Fonsz

4th May 2005, 03:39 AM

Speaking about "the Rape of nanking". Didn't the author of that book commit suicide?

Tim
Yes, the woman who wrote the book commited suicide because apparently the burden was too heavy to carry. I have read the book. It is very sad, horrible and nearly unreal, makes you wonder what people are capable of. I read in the news that the fact that nobody really cared about what happened and the grief of all the victims made her decide to end her life. I have read all the posts here with great interest since it in a way affected my family as well. But I can't get over the impression that the sincerety of Japan's declarations of regret is being doubted by everyone in general and the Chinese people in particular.

KhawMengLee

4th May 2005, 05:39 AM

I can understand where you're coming from. Murder, rape, torture, etc are obvously all terrible acts and it certainly would be wrong to try putting those all in a "nice light". However, have you ever considered that such acts could also be portrayed in a "worse light" where the criminals (in this case the Japanese troops) are collectively depicted as evil, inhumane, "sadistic" demons (which the media is very capable of doing)? I once met an elderly Japanese man who served in the Japanese Imperial Army and he told me that despite it was against his inner wishes, he was forced by his superiors to kill defenceless citizens and POWs. Now, putting aside any prejudices, how would you think he would feel if he was portrayed as some butcher? This is why most Japanese want to move on!!

Oh, God forbid that this poor old soldier gets a bad public image! I mean sure he killed a few chinese but hey! lets not hurt his feelings...

We live by our actions and should live with what those actions bring. His feelings were hurt? So what...you know what those people he killed are feeling? NOTHING because they are DEAD. If he feels bad because of how he is portrayed then he's feeling bad only for himself and not bad for what he did...

If he lives with the guilt of killing innocents then I can feel compassion for him because he has to suffer that burden...but as I said...you live by your actions.

Soldiers follow orders. That's why after the war they can go home...its only when their actions go beyond duty that they are singled out. I think the public outcry is because their actions were waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond duty and more into sadism and barbarity.

In the Nuerumburg(spelling?) trials, Officers in charge who commanded troops to butcher civilians or pows were tried with war crimes.

The thing is...if JUSTICE was done and said officers in the japanese army were similarly tried then at least some anger would be abated. But most were not, you had people like the heads of UNIT 731 who got off scott free in exchange for their research. They went on to be politicians, heads of corporations etc. Hell, a ex Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone talked about how he set up comfort women brothels for his troops in his memiors...

Yaiba

4th May 2005, 03:34 PM

Oh, God forbid that this poor old soldier gets a bad public image! I mean sure he killed a few chinese but hey! lets not hurt his feelings...
Again, why are you letting your emotions get carried away when it's far more constructive to be calm and collected in any given situation? It surprises me to see that you're trying to belittle me here... what will this achieve?

We live by our actions and should live with what those actions bring. His feelings were hurt? So what...you know what those people he killed are feeling? NOTHING because they are DEAD. If he feels bad because of how he is portrayed then he's feeling bad only for himself and not bad for what he did...

If he lives with the guilt of killing innocents then I can feel compassion for him because he has to suffer that burden...but as I said...you live by your actions.
I think you fail to realise that this man was UNWILLING to carry out the orders of shooting the victims and, thus, this makes him a victim of war as well. He described to me that he has had to go through life with the daily torment of knowing that he pulled the trigger and that he relives the deaths of the victims in his nightmares. The only solace for him was that he knows in his heart that he had no choice but to obey his superiors' orders. He IS living with his actions and has had to cope with the guilt so that his family, which was his main concern after the war, didn't suffer as a result of it in any way. (I suppose that's why, even among Australians who served in WW2, there are those that just don't want to bring up the topic of war and their experiences.)

Now, let me rephrase my question: If the comic (or any other book for that matter) collectively depicted ALL Japanese soldiers as evil, inhumane, "sadistic" demons then would this be fair to the above-mentioned gentleman and the countless other men who were in the same unfortunate situation? Would it be a true reflection of them? Yes/No? If you still answer "so what... how about the victims?" then you would be just demonstrating how little compassion you have for your fellow man and that you're missing my point entirely.

My thoughts are that such a misconception could lead to a worsened sense of guilt towards their victims and, thus, result in these men experiencing more personal suffering. I suppose what I'm asking is, is it so necessary for people to suffer even more than they've had to endure? These men are victims as much as those that died... but all you seem to be saying is that only those that died should be of concern.

I agree that the victims are the biggest "losers" from all this because they missed out on the chance to live... but I just want you to understand that some of those that made it back from war missed out on the chance to live a normal life as well, through no fault of their own. This includes both the surviving victims and the so-called "criminals", who were not willing to participate in barbarity.

Soldiers follow orders. That's why after the war they can go home...its only when their actions go beyond duty that they are singled out. I think the public outcry is because their actions were waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond duty and more into sadism and barbarity.
I agree that there were terrible crimes committed against their victims but do you mean to tell me that every SINGLE Japanese soldier was like this? Did all of them willingly practise sadism and barbarity? By the way, I'm not trying to throw any punches here as I'm only interested to know if this really is the perception in Malaysia (and elsewhere in Asia).

In the Nuerumburg(spelling?) trials, Officers in charge who commanded troops to butcher civilians or pows were tried with war crimes.

The thing is...if JUSTICE was done and said officers in the japanese army were similarly tried then at least some anger would be abated. But most were not, you had people like the heads of UNIT 731 who got off scott free in exchange for their research. They went on to be politicians, heads of corporations etc. Hell, a ex Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone talked about how he set up comfort women brothels for his troops in his memiors...
I agree it is an injustice. Those commanding officers who were responsible for allowing these crimes should have been dealt with in the harshest manner because they not only caused the suffering among Japan's Asian neighbours but they disgraced Japan itself. Having said that, the current generation of Japanese cannot surely be held accountable for this just because the prosecutors in the Hague (or wherever) at the time came up with deals/agreements with the accused, which led to lesser punishments.

You should also note that when a candidate is running for a government position (eg PM, member of parliament), they're obviously not going to reveal any past actions that could hinder their chances for election. Therefore, you couldn't blame the Japanese people for electing them in the first place if they didn't know about it at the time, and you certainly couldn't expect the current generation to cop the blame instead just because everyone knows about it now. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't know if this issue will ever be resolved... maybe time will be the answer, like in so many other disputes. I just hope that every person in Asia can realise that despite it's important not to forget about the past, it's much more important to forgive Japan for their shortcomings, give them the benefit of the doubt, and look to building better relations with them... because at the end of the day, it will be so much better to take that road rather than taking the other road to nowhere.

TylerY

4th May 2005, 04:55 PM

I think you fail to realise that this man was UNWILLING to carry out the orders of shooting the victims and, thus, this makes him a victim of war as well. He described to me that he has had to go through life with the daily torment of knowing that he pulled the trigger and that he relives the deaths of the victims in his nightmares. The only solace for him was that he knows in his heart that he had no choice but to obey his superiors' orders. He IS living with his actions and has had to cope with the guilt so that his family, which was his main concern after the war, didn't suffer as a result of it in any way. (I suppose that's why, even among Australians who served in WW2, there are those that just don't want to bring up the topic of war and their experiences.)

I agree that there were terrible crimes committed against their victims but do you mean to tell me that every SINGLE Japanese soldier was like this? Did all of them willingly practise sadism and barbarity? By the way, I'm not trying to throw any punches here as I'm only interested to know if this really is the perception in Malaysia (and elsewhere in Asia).

I can forgive the average Japanese soldier who did his duty for his country. Ffor sure, there would have been a lot of decent guys fighting in the Imperial Army, definitely more than there would have been brutal sadists. But the fact remains that the sadists did exist, with most of them not brought to justice after the war. Guys like Mukai Toshiaki and Noda Takeshi, the two Japanese officers who had a civilian-decapitating contest, possibly made it home to Japan, ready to tell the little grandkids about his heroic adventures in China.

I've found a site with several scans out of the comic itself. It seems to be an analysis about the validity of the manga's controversial parts (my Japanese is only enough to read parts of it heh.) This particular link goes to the 100-civilian-head-chopping contest. It's late now, but I'll try to read the bits tomorrow afterschool.

http://www.geocities.jp/nankin1937jp/page048.html

KhawMengLee

5th May 2005, 01:08 PM

I agree that there were terrible crimes committed against their victims but do you mean to tell me that every SINGLE Japanese soldier was like this? Did all of them willingly practise sadism and barbarity? By the way, I'm not trying to throw any punches here as I'm only interested to know if this really is the perception in Malaysia (and elsewhere in Asia).

You know, tho' I may be harsh I am honest. It's not that I have no compassion but I believe that your sins follow you till the end. It may be a hard fact but tho' not every japanese soldier is bad the actions of a few reflect on the whole...

Its like how a few people here think China is like Cold War Russia... You may think my words lack compassion but its what people on the other end(the victims) feel.

Now for your second question... most people in Malaysia...especially the Chinese under the Japanese in WWII don't hold them in very high regard. Its not a nice thing but as I said, the sins of the past live long in the heart. Its also the conduct of a few that also reflect on the whole...I have witnessed very unflattering things done by Japanese clients and at the same time I have met very noble characters...

In the end it is just being human...there are good people and bad...unfortunately, the bad sticks to mind more often. At the same time there is/was a racist stigma against koreans and chinese in Japan.

I remember years ago when I was going out with a Japanese girl, a friend of mine said "how can you go out with a ****ing jap?". I grabbed him by the throat and told him to watch his mouth and I haven't spoken to him since, not even when he approached me a year ago and said "hi". I just walked off.
I don't care what race a person is, if he is a friend I'll side him/her for life.

Now, I believe that friendship can turn this hate around, but it takes time and trust... If you really want this stigma to go then Japan has to earn the trust and friendship again.

You cannot just say "Sorry" and expect a person who you have wronged to immediately accept you with open arms. You cannot expect to throw money at them and gain forgiveness...its only an insult(they may take the money but not neccesarily feel grateful). You may never gain forgiveness but if you really feel guilt and want repentence then you will have to try try and try.

As I said before...its not an easy step but Japan has to make the move...no matter the rejection...they have to try the hardest to make amends and earn the trust.

Yaiba

5th May 2005, 09:46 PM

Fonsz

6th May 2005, 04:12 AM

Associating people with countries is simply politics and I believe it is the wrong mentality to have when international disputes occur. That is just my opinion.
Quite right, and I agree that Japan will always be regarded by the Black Pages of History during their Colonial Expansion and WW2.

KhawMengLee

6th May 2005, 04:57 PM

After much thought, I've come to realise that countries will never ever be able to overcome the stereotypical perceptions that others hold against them due to the legacies of their past... eg, Germany will forever be identified with Nazism, Russia with Soviet Communism, and Japan with Imperial Militarism. Every country, and thus every citizen of that country, is generalised in some way or other as having an eternally unique trait that no other country can emulate. Interestingly, this is often portrayed in the negative light and is used against them as a political tool. In the process, this distances people of different countries further apart and ensures the US and THEM mentality, which is not healthy whatsoever.

A thief can live a lifetime of sin and be revered with just one good deed. A King can reign with a lifetime of good and noble actions but one wrong action will bring the people to despise him for eternity.

Japan is a successful nation. Its ASEAN brothers look up to them and at the same time any mistake or misdeed is unforgivable. We can forgive a thief because we do not expect much of him but we cannot forgive a King because we expect a Saint of him.

I think it's not so much what Japan did in WWII but more their attitude today. By this I mean the actions of the Government and a few hard line ministers.

My Father always said to me, "Anybody makes mistakes, but a Real Man admits to it, accepts the consequences and learns from it."

The actions of the right wingers in denying the rape of Nanking took place, the expulsion of the use of the word "comfort women", enshrining war criminals and censoring mass media is all wrong. You may think it not so but that is what we feel.

Look at the comic, its not graphic...and in fact looks quite clownish... the right wingers censored it. No matter how you feel, they did. You don't need to officially step in to do so. To think that Governments can't pressure people or corporations is naive. There are many ways to threaten people.

The actions of these men reflect on Japan. And not just to China, who voice their anger, but in all asian nations. Japan looks to be a leader and it should act like one, with nobility and honour.

We are all guilty of falling into this trap, including myself unfortunately. Hehe... I mean, I bet most of you think (or have thought previously) that every Australian has a pet crocodile in their backyard and has a wrestle with them for fun, right? :wink: If not crocodiles, then I'm sure it's been a kangaroo or a koala. No, Australians aren't that different to the rest of the world.[/QOUTE]

What are you talking about!?!? I had a Roo and a Dropbear too! All Patriotic Aussies have 'em! You must be a secret pinko bloody commie!!muahahahaha!!

[QUOTE=Yaiba]This brings me back to the topic... most modern Japanese people now identify themselves differently to those Japanese of 60 years ago but I think all of Japan will forever be associated with murder, rape, torture, slavery, etc even if they keep apologising for the next 100 years. This means that the acceptance of an apology by another country (should it occur) wouldn't be genuine in any case either because of the "labelling" that they will continue to use against the new Japanese.

The Apology should be genuine...there needs to be more proof of awareness...people need to "see" this(this is what is called public relations). More-so in media, I remember watching "Ningen no joken" and loving it but feeling a bit let down by the potrayal of the 'abuse' by the soldiers in WWII of the chinese. Then again, there was this bit in Masato Harada's
"Bounce Ko gals"(about a bunch of girls who scam guys by pretending to be call girls and then running off with their client's money) where an old prestigious doctor starts describing how he used to rape the comfort women in his old days without remorse and the girl in the room with him smacks him up or something.

People need to "see" the sincerety, the awareness, etc...as I said...just saying "sorry" is not enough and certainly hollow when no action is seen to be taken when idiots and bigots say things like the Nanking massacre happened.

Associating people with countries is simply politics and I believe it is the wrong mentality to have when international disputes occur. That is just my opinion.

True. But its politics on both sides...China has its agenda and so does Japan. Its not as simple as it seems.

Yaiba

6th May 2005, 07:07 PM

Your comments are fair enough. As I'm a staunch believer in "freedom of speech", I accept (and respect) your views and opinions. All I'd like to say is that I think each spectator's view differs from which side of the field and where on the sideline that they stand.

We are all guilty of falling into this trap, including myself unfortunately. Hehe... I mean, I bet most of you think (or have thought previously) that every Australian has a pet crocodile in their backyard and has a wrestle with them for fun, right? :wink: If not crocodiles, then I'm sure it's been a kangaroo or a koala. No, Australians aren't that different to the rest of the world.

What are you talking about!?!? I had a Roo and a Dropbear too! All Patriotic Aussies have 'em! You must be a secret pinko bloody commie!!muahahahaha!!

What do you mean by "pinko"? Are you assuming that I'm either a "left-winger" or I'm "gay" (or both!? :eek: )??? Haha... well, I'm neither actually. I consider myself more as a centre-right-winger and completely heterosexual. And no, I'm not a communist as I deplore communism. (NB. That doesn't mean I hate anyone that is a communist though.) Freedom of speech, right? :wink:

This post actually reminds me of a classic Simpsons quote by Grandpa Simpson: "My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is not a porn star."

At least everyone has to agree that The Simpsons is one of the all-time greatest shows ever!! :D