Things the pros do that we don't.

[Charlie]

I have been thinking about some of the habits I observe at the highest level of shiai, the championships, and thinking about what those kendoists do that I personally don't. Without immediately passing judgment on whether they are "wrong" or "acceptable for shiai but not something that should be encouraged," let me just sketch what I think some of those things are and encourage you to do the same, then we can pick them apart.

1) Backing up. This is the most noticeable one, I think. Top level shiai players regularly back up in the face of attacks, dodging and blocking. In fact, often a shiai action consists of one opponent attacking, the other backing away and dodging, blocking or parrying, responding in kind, and this goes on for seven or eight minutes, perhaps with each opponent getting more and more bold, more ai-uchis, and then someone slips and, bang, ippon.

2) Letting the left foot turn in. By itself, not a bad thing, I've heard some sensei say, but discouraged, especially at our level. The foot of some players is at a 30-degree angle or so instead of the proper 90-degrees.

3) No big cuts. We've discussed this to death.

Your thoughts?

[KendokaJim]

I've also noticed a lot of faking or feigning. It seems that kind of takes away from the whole attack-without-regard-for-being-cut attitude that we're taught to have.

[Curtis]

Get paid to practice twice a day. This is a great job if you can handle the pressure that goes with it.

In the four + months I spent at the Osaka police I saw them in a police uniform twice. And once was for some ceremony they were having.

[Charlie]

Curtis, did you get your arse kicked consistently there or were you sometimes able to hold your own?

[samurai999]

Yup.. They practice everyday.. IIRC, 2x per day for 5 days. Thats something I'll never be able to do since there is a little thing called work I have to do. haha.

Also the Jp kids in college get no homework. They just study their asses off for tests and i've heard that even those are fairly straight forward. Therefore, they can practice too. They also have kendo scholarships like we do here with football, baseball, and basketball. :confused2

Tim

[JByrd]

1) Backing up.

Just my $.02:

Backing up can be very effective when there is a good reason for doing so. Manipulating ma-ai to one's advantage is a way to gain an opportunity to strike. The problem for lower level people is that we often do things without having a good reason, and backing up without a good reason usually does not help one's situation.

I think that ingraining the attitude of not backing up is not so much for physical reasons as psychological ones. There are a few seemingly small things that my teachers have always stressed to me, and I in turn stress to my students, because they seem to have a broad effect. One is to always step slightly forward as one rises from sonkyo with one's opponent. Psychologically, it conditions us to take the initiative to engage the situation, rather than wait for the situation to engage us. Another is to make the last attack/strike/kiai in a sequence the best one. The deeper message is that we must finish strongly and not allow ourselves to start to quit before it is really over.

[Charlie]

All very true. But I was thinking specifically about techniques, the actual, physical things that they do in shiai that are different than us mortals and non-Japanese.

[Fonsz]

All very true. But I was thinking specifically about techniques, the actual, physical things that they do in shiai that are different than us mortals and non-Japanese.
I think that you're going over the top here. Because IMHO Japanese are also mortals. When you cut them they also bleed, when they are sad they also cry and so on......
Just because they get to practice more and earlier than us doesn't mean they are bodily lifted to heaven.
The moment that Kendo is no longer compulsory for them a lot of them just plain quit. There is a lot of stress in the Japanese society as you may have noticed and a lot of stress that comes with competition Kendo is something they are willingly want to trade in for some peace of mind. I know a girl who was in her University team and had to attend a lot of tournaments and special practice. When she lived for a while in Europe she was so pleased that she only had to practice two times a week, she was actually enjoying Kendo again. So the grass is not always greener in Japan.

[Curtis]

Curtis, did you get your arse kicked consistently there or were you sometimes able to hold your own?

In general they mopped the floor with me. I was only 2/3 dan at that time. However I had a handful of people who took a particular interest in me and were very helpful. Not the least of which was Kenichi Ishida sensei, now 8 dan. Of course there were a couple not so friendly guys too. The very minority.

By the end of the trip I sarted to hold my own a little with the lower guys. Still most were just too well trained.

I went back to visit last year and the 8 dans once again mopped the floor with me. I got to practice with Ishizuka sensei and his son, a 25yo 5 dan.

[Neil Gendzwill]

My understanding is that the pace those guys play at is amazingly quick, quite a bit faster than even the top guys here.

[kendokamax]

eh..

the thing is that the "All Japan" we see now is getting soooo boring... Since Iwasa won nobody is taking any chances.

I don't care if people dodge, have dodgy techinque etc (it's all a question of style right? ) but if they can't give up a good fight when they are at this level (see ando vs suzuki in the 52th, this was one of the ugliest match i've seen) Ando kept backing up in the corner..(his kendo used to be so cool when he won...)

Kendo without sutemi is just not worth anything in my opinion.

Anyway, I think it's really sad to have that has models.

I wish I had some University Kendo video tape where there is actualy something going on...

[Curtis]

The moment that Kendo is no longer compulsory for them a lot of them just plain quit. There is a lot of stress in the Japanese society as you may have noticed and a lot of stress that comes with competition Kendo is something they are willingly want to trade in for some peace of mind. I know a girl who was in her University team and had to attend a lot of tournaments and special practice. When she lived for a while in Europe she was so pleased that she only had to practice two times a week, she was actually enjoying Kendo again. So the grass is not always greener in Japan.

This is something we have seen a lot of. They drop out. Another thing is the fact that when they show up someplace outside of Japan you hear from them that they now enjoy kendo again.

One of the things I have always found from training in Japan is the differance in speed and intensity. I come back home and people suddenly seem to be in slow motion and not as alert to followup attacks. We get in a rut very easily due to lack of high level peer pressure.

We recently had Ota sensei here and I asked him when he started kendo and the response was age 14. I would have thought it a little younger. Still that is 50 years of kendo.

One of the things that research has shown is that when you start at a young age certain physiological changes take place which enhance your abilities. I started my son at age 6 (now 11) and I can see those changes already. Ota sensei teased me about how his natural posture and movements were better than mine. Tell me something I did not already now.

The main thing is we simply do not have the pool of people outside of Japan needed to keep the pressure on.

[kuzu70]

Top Japanese kenshi have speed, intuitive timing and strength, coming from, as mentioned above, tons of training. One can argue that they get paid, we have to work, etc., but the bottom line is they train like hell. I don't think I could train like that even if I had a chance.

[Andoru]

Pros have excellent footwork from what I can see. Their kamae is very strong.

[Charlie]

Sorry, JByrd, my last post was in response to Samurai999.

And I was being facetious in the use of the term "mortals." But the good points have been made, that these people train like hell.

J, you're hitting on the thing I think is most interesting to me (Neil, too, with his remark on speed):


Just my $.02:
Backing up can be very effective when there is a good reason for doing so. Manipulating ma-ai to one's advantage is a way to gain an opportunity to strike. The problem for lower level people is that we often do things without having a good reason, and backing up without a good reason usually does not help one's situation.

This is why I didn't want to say in my first post that something was "wrong" or "not textbook." Watching the shifting maai of the top players is one of the fascinating things about it and something I not only don't do but cannot do. When top players shift backwards they end up at the same maai or in taiatari, their sense of maai is always on (and, as was said, they are moving very fast). Lower level players simply cannot do this most of the time, nor should they, as they are still in a formative stage where they should be going forward.

What did you mean, Max, about no one taking chances?

[Anjin-san]

Does anyone else get the feeling when watching these pro matches that they make shinai look completely weightless?

[JSchmidt]

What did you mean, Max, about no one taking chances?

I think he refers to the style of kendo played now. It's more about waiting for the opponent to screw up than trying to create opportunities. The videos I've watched from the last couple of AJKCs have been messy and rather boring.
One of my seniors told me that's why they created the 8th Dan Champs, to demonstrate 'proper' kendo.
(YMMV)

Jakob

[Halcyon]

One of my seniors told me that's why they created the 8th Dan Champs, to demonstrate 'proper' kendo.

Lately, I enjoy watching/studying the hachi dan taikai more than the all-Japans. I can't quite put my finger on it, but the matches in the all-Japans haven't been very inspiring of late, even compared to several years ago. Don't get me wrong -- the athleticism and speed are amazing, but the matches just seem to be lacking something.

As someone who began kendo late in life, it's unrealistic to aspire to the kind of super-human kendo in the all-Japans. It may be even more unrealistic to aspire to the kind of kendo in the hachi dan taikai, but I feel at least I have more to LEARN from those matches.

[Akai Bushi]

Was that a one handed DO that won that match?

Looked so cool!:shocked:

[kuzu70]

I still enjoy watching the AJKC. The waza and timing the kenshi display are crazy. The 8-dan championships are crazy too. When I watch the 8 dan matches I get the feeling that they are having a real duel, whereas in the AJKC, it is more of a competition. What do I know anyways?

[JSchmidt]

I got a copy of the 30th All Japans, which is considered one of the all-time classic tournaments and it's what I use for inspiration...the kendo displayed there is a mix contains the dynamics of the modern AJKC, but also the composure of the new 8th dans champs. (There's also a handful of jodan guys, which is another reason I like it!)
I do however think that one should try all types of kendo and not dismiss the competition style kendo because of age, whatever.

Jakob

[The great I AM]

I agree with Kuzu70, I still enjoy watching the AJKC as muc as the hachidan taikai. They both have their pros and cons, but I still think that there is stuff to be learnt from the AJKC. These guys may be messy at times, but they have some incredibly effective tecniques, and looking at and trying to understand how they are done is beneficial to me. Likewise for the hachidan taikai, I can learn a great deal about patience amongst other things.

Each has its ups and downs, I don't think you can dismiss either based on what they cosmetically look like, even if one looks "messy" or "boring". For the record, I would much rather watch the AJKC than the 8dan taikai, but thats just me.

[Halcyon]

I got a copy of the 30th All Japans, which is considered one of the all-time classic tournaments and it's what I use for inspiration...the kendo displayed there is a mix contains the dynamics of the modern AJKC, but also the composure of the new 8th dans champs. (There's also a handful of jodan guys, which is another reason I like it!)

Now I'm intrigued! Jakob, do you know where I can get a copy of that? That would be 1982, right?

[mingshi]

The videos I've watched from the last couple of AJKCs have been messy and rather boring.
But..! Look at them! Got paid to do kendo every day AND be the best of the entire prefecture to get the chance to participate in the AJKC.

Even when they fart it smells like air refreshers... you know!!

[Fonsz]

Even when they fart it smells like air refreshers... you know!!
I think this is even more over the top than the post who stated that they weren't mortals. What is the world coming to?

[Kingofmyrrh]

I wish I had some University Kendo video tape where there is actualy something going on...
I'm totally in agreement with Max on this one. From the point of view of the spectator, the dynamic kendo on display at university competitions is far more exciting to watch. I'm not saying that they're technically superior, of course, but compared to the lumbering 8th dan matches they're a pleasure to watch. Plus, there's a bit of passion on display, which you don't get to see when you watch senior kendo players. In fact, this is why I probably like watching high school tournaments just as much as university ones - the participants really care about whether they win or lose. Since you only get three years at high school, you don't get many chances in competitions, so it's not surprising that you often see people in tears when they lose out. Adds a little drama to the proceedings.

[Theodore]

I'm totally in agreement with Max on this one. From the point of view of the spectator, the dynamic kendo on display at university competitions is far more exciting to watch. I'm not saying that they're technically superior, of course, but compared to the lumbering 8th dan matches they're a pleasure to watch. Plus, there's a bit of passion on display, which you don't get to see when you watch senior kendo players. In fact, this is why I probably like watching high school tournaments just as much as university ones - the participants really care about whether they win or lose. Since you only get three years at high school, you don't get many chances in competitions, so it's not surprising that you often see people in tears when they lose out. Adds a little drama to the proceedings.

Koitsu Kenji points out in his book that as martial arts become more interesting to the audience they lose the very thing that makes them interesting to the adept practitioners. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570629986/ref=ase_kendoblog-20/103-5055080-3120615?v=glance&s=books)

It's be subtle battle of the kensens that are the most interesting in kendo, not the rockem-sockem matches that the more "athletic" kenshi put on. If you want "drama" visit a Gracie jiu-jitsu match.

[samurai999]

Even when they fart it smells like air refreshers... you know!!

meh? O_o

Tim

[kendokamax]

But..! Look at them! Got paid to do kendo every day AND be the best of the entire prefecture to get the chance to participate in the AJKC.


not at all of them get paid to play kendo all day long! Not all of them are in top police kendo force! gotta respect guys like Tazaki !

[kendokamax]

I think he refers to the style of kendo played now. It's more about waiting for the opponent to screw up than trying to create opportunities.


right!
That's why the final in the 51th was so great! They just went and gave everything they got, right from the beginning!

It's funny how when you see 5-10 years old video tape of all japan they refuse to give some very very good points. Now there is so few attacks that, I think some points given aren't soo good. But, even thought it got a bit more boring, It's still amazing to see these guys playing.

Hey my friend lent me the 30th all japan. It's quite cool! chiba is crazy!

[Neil Gendzwill]

not at all of them get paid to play kendo all day long! Not all of them are in top police kendo force! gotta respect guys like Tazaki !
Or even our own Canadian team members. After 2000 worlds I believe there was an article in Kendo Nippon about them, marvelling at how strong a team they were given that they were all part time players with full-time jobs.

[JByrd]

Koitsu Kenji points out in his book that as martial arts become more interesting to the audience they lose the very thing that makes them interesting to the adept practitioners. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570629986/ref=ase_kendoblog-20/103-5055080-3120615?v=glance&s=books)
.

I agree. Unbridled passion can make for visual excitement, but in my mind, Kendo is all about self control.

Though they may not jump around a lot or cry when they lose, the passion that the 8th dan people posess is demonstrated by the fact that they have 8th dan. The fact that they are controlling their passion makes it all the more poignant to me.

[Pokie]

Just going off the subject here, I have been hearing that Masahiro Miyazaki has been kicking butt in the hachi dans tournament..is that true ? has he been winning more in hachi dan tournament than in AJKC ?

[neko kenshi]

While I'm sure the highest level matches are doing kendo far beyond my comprehension, I have to agree that they are really boring to watch. The lower level matches always seem to be more exciting, mabey partially because it's less perfect; *shrugs* I don't know... It'd be fun to watch these all japan chanpionships fight the hachidans. And come to think of it, why do you never see the All japan winners winning the world championships? Ah well.

[Andoru]

Just going off the subject here, I have been hearing that Masahiro Miyazaki has been kicking butt in the hachi dans tournament..is that true ? has he been winning more in hachi dan tournament than in AJKC ?

Nanadan tournaments (5 times now), not hachidan.

[JByrd]

The lower level matches always seem to be more exciting, mabey partially because it's less perfect;

I think that captures the difference pretty well. Lower level people make bigger mistakes, and one player can get a very big advantage over the other for a long enough time for everyone to see it. Top level players make few mistakes, and even when they do mess up, the recovery is so fast that the advantage obtained by the opponent is too small and brief for most people to perceive.

[kanyil]

Just going off the subject here, I have been hearing that Masahiro Miyazaki has been kicking butt in the hachi dans tournament..is that true ? has he been winning more in hachi dan tournament than in AJKC ?

What Andoru said. The kote-kaeshi-kote he pulled in the last nanadan tournament was something to behold indeed.

After watching the DVD, I got the feeling that he was in a class of his own. There's a Japanese bus for you.

[Frame]

While I'm sure the highest level matches are doing kendo far beyond my comprehension, I have to agree that they are really boring to watch. The lower level matches always seem to be more exciting, mabey partially because it's less perfect; *shrugs* I don't know... It'd be fun to watch these all japan chanpionships fight the hachidans. And come to think of it, why do you never see the All japan winners winning the world championships? Ah well.

touche good sir.........i remember watching a video off this site and watching a men cut........then i slowed it down and thought "crap, that was a kote-men?" some of them are so damn fast

ever seen that hachidan test program? the guy who won the AJKC failed 3 times or something as he was doing too much competition kendo and was always going for points. So i guess it's just a different kind of kendo for hachidans

[Charlie]

Please understand, all, I'm not in any way suggesting you "dismiss" the kind of play being shown in these shiai. Rather, and I thought I put it this way, watching shiai of these kind is not just enjoyable but mitori-geiko, "watching practice." What I'm asking is, what do we learn from the mitori-geiko of these high-level shiai? And my first observation was that these fighters can do things many of us can't (yet).

[Charlie]

Oh, and Gracie jujitsu is not enjoyable to watch. Sure, some of the mixed competitions where the GJJ tapped somebody silly are fun, but a one-on-one match between two skilled practitioners of a grappling art is as boring to the spectator if not more than a kendo match. Honestly, you see two white clothed practitioners struggle, pause, jockey, motionless, then a shift - what happened? Oh, he went from guard to half-guard stifling that escape attempt. Not "fun." But also mitori-geiko for students of the grappling arts.

[grasshopper_r2]

As far as the "backing up" technique is concerned...I was honored to be at a recent seminar of Ota Sensei, he DID NOT like it when I would back up to set my distance. A bad habit I had developed. His corrections were very clear.

[taganahan]

i read this whole thread and i haven't seen anyone say that we don't have a lot of high ranked senseis. i'm saying this without disrespect to the senseis out there. 2-4 high ranked senseis are already a luxury to most dojos outside of japan but if you look at their place, they have one 8dan, a couple of 7dans and so on and so forth. maybe this is an exageration but it is more or less closest to the truth.

japan also had a 100 years? jumpstart in kendo while us, countries(maybe non asian countries) outside japan are still beginning and exploring kendo and i'm damn sure that we're progressing fast.

~taganahan

[Kendoka_Shogun]

N e one think that part of learning good kendo involves visiting Japan for the 2 year ancient Japanese Sensei O.E?

I have heard lots of people do it, so I presume the experience must be good?

[Charlie]

As far as the "backing up" technique is concerned...I was honored to be at a recent seminar of Ota Sensei, he DID NOT like it when I would back up to set my distance. A bad habit I had developed. His corrections were very clear.

Right. And yet, when you reach a certain level, moving backward and forward while adjusting distance may be acceptable. But you have to reach that level! Until then, FORWARD!

[Kingofmyrrh]

In relation to the Miyazaki point -
amusingly, they had to change the entry qualifications for the 8th dan tournaments, so that now you need to have been 8th dan for a certain period (something like 6 years?) before you're allowed to enter. Apparently this was because all the new 8th dns were too good and kept on beating up the senior guys.
Theodore seems to believe that I prefer younger kendo for the visual excitement - which is not the reason - but I'm sure that people who've had an opportunity to watch a lot of shiai at both junior and senior levels will agree that quite often the kendo that senior kendoists display is pretty ugly. Take the video that Alex and crew were kind enough to put up the other day - one handed do cuts, wonky men cuts, and even questioning referees' decisions (when the guy is like 'what was wrong with that?') - all things that are severely frowned upon in the kendo world. I don't see any reason why these standards should apply any less to 8th dans, and I would certainly be very hesitant to show that video to anyone junior to myself. While they may be wonderful teachers, there is a limit to the kendo that older 8th dans can perform - nice as it is, the phrase 'ageless kendo' should not really be taken to be true. For example, Takano Sasaburo decided to never again enter the Kyoto Taikai after he got to about the age of sixty, saying that he didn't want people to laugh at the deterioration of 'old man Takano'. I'm sure that anyone who's been to the Kyoto Taikai and seen the older 8th dans, or even the hanshi 7th dans, will see where I'm coming from when I say that 8th dans can give you incredible practice, and are extremely knowledgeable about kendo, but physical limitations often mean that their matches are not the most interesting, nor indeed should they always be used as a physical model of ideal kendo. Watching 8th dan matches and admiring their dignity is all well and good, but I defy someone to manage a whole day of that and not long to see a few dynamic techniques. As I've said, these people provide great practice but are not all that much fun to watch. It's like the differnce you feel between the high tension of playing poker, and the mind-numbing boredom of having to watch others play.

[Hai_hai]

Watching AJKC is better than the World Championships.
NHK Sports wa ichiban desu!!!

[Frame]

yeah good point(even if it's unrealted to waht you say hai hai), it'd be if i even got some kendo tv :p, then again, it'd justbe another excuse to waste more time