Rytmical Naginata

[Nagi David]

I know , lots of you think that this is not a part of martial art, but the fact is that Japanese proposed countrys who practise naginata to try rythmical naginata. It consist on a succesion of mouvement on a music.

It's really interesting to create one. And it worked well on the first world championship in 1995. Japan, Fance, Belgium, USA, Brasil developped one, but unfortunately at the second world championship in 1999 only Japan, Fance, Belgium did it again.
It is true that it's a lot of work doing one but I hope we'll have more than three country doing one in San Jose. You can find one of ours at this address :

European championship 2002 (http://users.skynet.be/bs714536/Rythmic2002.wmv)

[R A Sosnowski]

In the USA, opinions differ as to the appropriateness of this event at an International Taikai.

The Japanese powers-that-be, for reasons unknown to me, have embraced this idea, and have pushed hard to get the rest of the international community to accept it.

As a hard-core Budo-ka for the past 30 years, I personally believe that this idea entirely misses the point of practicing Budo.

R-N is cute, and looks good when a bunch of Japanese school girls perform it. :D But it is Odori, a form of entertainment, and nothing more.

I do not have time in my hectic life to waste my time on such silliness. YMMV.

[Atama]

I haven't seen

[Kingu]

I never saw rythmical naginata but according to what this way of practising gave in karate, I'm not convinced of the utility of this...

Still have to see to make my opinion. :confused:

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Nagi David
You can find one of ours at this address :

European championship 2002 (http://users.skynet.be/bs714536/Rythmic2002.wmv)

Ye gods, that sucked beyond belief. I couldn't get through half of it before hitting the stop button.

Rescue your dignity while you still can.

[Kent Enfield]

Originally posted by Nagi David
You can find one of ours at this address :

European championship 2002 (http://users.skynet.be/bs714536/Rythmic2002.wmv) Up until this morning, I had wanted to try naginata if the opportunity ever arose.

Why on earth would anyone think this a good thing? Unless naginata wants to be nothing more than figure skating with props and no ice.

[mingshi]

Er, hmm, guys... Lack of Martial Arts Knowledge I see...

There are sectors of Chinese Martial Arts/ Wushu... where they cannot have free sparring. Instead they have solo performance as competitions. Which is what you'll expect in Nan-quan etc. It was critized by some, but nevertheless it is still Martial Arts.

Then you have this Taichi competition called "42-kata" (er, more or less the same term), containing a few selective Kata from the traditional ones. Much like Kendo Kata in a Match. Which is also much condemned by tradtional Taichi practicians...

Don't forget those Martial Arts in the Movies... The best choreographed ones are those performed by real martial artists.

Mr. Sosnowski, why would that "entirely missed the point practicing Budo"? You need timing and correct cutting. That can happen with and without rythme/music if you do it correctly, and should not be a concern for that...?

Guess you could have seen Enbu Kata. Kata is not Odori. But they still look as good. If you ever add music to it, the prupose of performing the Kata would not change.

Nagi David, I was wondering if the duel moves in your clip exists in traditional Naginata Kata, or you people made those up? (BTW I like the Prodigy music.)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by mingshi
Er, hmm, guys... Lack of Martial Arts Knowledge I see...

That kind of assumption will get you nowhere.

There are sectors of Chinese Martial Arts/ Wushu... where they cannot have free sparring. Instead they have solo performance as competitions. Which is what you'll expect in Nan-quan etc. It was critized by some, but nevertheless it is still Martial Arts.

Wushu is incredible acrobatics that bears a surface resemblance to martial arts. It isn't martial arts.

We understand kata competition. We just don't think music has any place in it.

Don't forget those Martial Arts in the Movies... The best choreographed ones are those performed by real martial artists.

Much of the fanciest movie stuff is choreographed by people trained in movie martial arts. You can go to school for it, people like Jackie Chan did. Movie martial arts is dedicated to making fights look good on screen or stage. It again has only a surface resemblance to real martial arts.

You need timing and correct cutting.

Yes you do, and the people in the video would do well to practice some more. Without the disco.

The timing you want in kata is not the timing that is driven by some steady driving techno beat, it is the timing you make with your opponent, whether it be your live partner or your imaginary opponent. To give an example, most beginners approach kendo kata with a steady rhythm - one-two-three-yah-toh (recite in a monotone for full effect). But there's a fight going on in there and the goal of the kata is eventually to recreate the fight and understand how the opportunities are created and exploited, just like a real fight.

That's why musical kata sucks.

[stinkyKote]

hey ... maybe for the next one, they can get four girls to dress up in really short hakama, and they can do one to a britney spears song...yay!

seriously though, would this little clip be quite so offensive if it was done to traditional japanese music? ...the martial arts snob in me wants to put a couple of smacks in the back of the head in an envelope and send it care of those four guys--

but at the same time, I get what mingshi is saying- a couple of my buddys who do wing chun are going to be doing the lion dance performances for chinese new years soon, and I dare anybody to tell them they look stupid and that that has no place in their martial art, or that performing it doesn't do anything to help their kung fu ... is RN really that different ?

hah... RN ... see, there's already an acronym for it... it's too late!

[R A Sosnowski]

Thank you, Neil. :D

Mingshi, 42-form T'ai Chi is "Chop Suey" in the words of Dr. Yang, Jwing-ming; I was there at the T'ai Chi Farm in Warwick, NY, in 1992 when it was introduced to the US at the instructors' meeting. Tai-chi Ch'uan (TCC) lives only in the old family styles, not in the patch-work creations of committees.

Modern Wushu is an empty shell, devoid of martial content. So are its so-called weapons; they are nothing but a bunch of tin-foil props (my weapons are the Lung-Chuan steel Gin and the iron fan). It's entertainment. I have nothing against entertainment, but don't tell me it's a martial art (MA). In 30 years of training, I have seen too many fads and way too many frauds. Just because you call it a MA, does not make it so.

Movies are Chambarra, choreography, dance. If that's what you want, leave the Dojo and join a ballet class.

You can ruin any art. Look at Judo and Tae Kwon Do (TKD) - they are now Olympic martial-inspired sports; there are factions that want to do the same to Kendo and Naginata. The PRC tried the same thing in the bid for the 1996 Olympics with the creation of the 42. Now it looks like the PRC will get a second chance to do it again. On at least two occasions, I have weighed in against Kendo-in-the-Olympics on Iaido-L, and I have cited the cases of Judo, TKD and TCC.

Rhythm Naginata is a "dance" with a naginata as a "prop."

If I want timing training, I'll pair off with a person trying to "cut" me with a Naginata or Shinai or Jo before I "cut" them. If I want rhythm, I call Authur Murray - he runs a successful chain of dance studios here.

I gave a talk in Guelph, Ontario, in 1999, on Creativity in the MA's; the abstract is in the position papers (http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/gsjsa99papers.htm); J. Asian Martial Arts had promised to print the full papers, so they are currently still in limbo. It was well-received. Needless to say, I railed against musical [empty-hand] Kata, but especially against musical Kata with weapons. And that includes rhythm Naginata. There is no substance to it and it is being created by people too inexperienced to know good Budo or who have sold out to entertainment-as-Budo.

It's a not a MA, it has nothing to do with MAs, and it will never be a MA. And I do not care how many Hanshi in Japan say otherwise. There may be very good reasons for practicing rhythm Naginata, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Budo that I have seen. YMMV.

[Nagi David]

I'm pleased to see many reaction on this.
I'm practising Naginata for 10 years now and I've heard about rythm naginata since the beginning. I must admit that the first time I saw a group of Japanese girl performing Naginata on Vivaldi, I was not convice... :rolleyes:
But, as my phylosophy is "to try before, and criticise after" I tryed.
And the first one I did was in 1995 at the first world championship with the rest of the Belgian team. And.... I cannot say I really enjoyed it. But we include a new exercice in our training since; we call it "katas imaginaires" which is a period in the course where student are creating katas. And believe me or not, it is really interesting, it's a way to use everything you know about Naginata to create something. Because repeating katas is interesting and a neverending duty. This " katas imaginaires" exercices is always different. Off course we ask student to use only real Naginata cuts. And more or less we began to use this exercice to create Rythmical Naginata. Well it is efficient, helps student to learn some movement, and to try different rythm of practice.

Believe it or not the four peoples which are performing this rythmical naginata on this little video are:

2nd Dan and First at the European Championship 2002
3rd Dan and second at the European Championship 2002
1st Dan and First at the Goodwill tournament of the European championship 2002
2nd Dan and First at the European Championship 2001

OK for the people who prefers Naginata here is another kind of practice


Belgian points European Championship 2002 (http://users.skynet.be/bs714536/Champ.euro2002.wmv)

[KhawMengLee]

ooo...I didn't notice the clip....(downloading)....(viewing)...hmmnnn

Nice! I like it! (of course I haven't heard it with sound yet cuz I am at work).

Though, there is nothing wrong with music in training. Look at when you march in the service. The brass band keeps you in time and helps keep rythym. The beat acts as a catalyst for your body to act as one. Normally, when a biginner tries to do a cut they will think many things and screw up. Eg, concentrate on their footwork and screw up the cut etc.

I hope I get the opportunity to try naginata one day.

MENG

[Paburo]

mar-tial
adj.
Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.

some ppl around here get too critical and purist. if we boil everything down, then none of us is really practising a 'martial' art.

we would join a clan, train with shinken, and fight against each other till death if so.

besides, there is nothing wrong with rhythm and music at the time of battle or training. most cultures do it in some sort of way. or did you think the taiko drums were just for display?

look at capoeira for instance. sure, it looks just like a dance. but whoever says those techniques cannot be eventually applied in a combat is obviously blind.

[R A Sosnowski]

Nagi David wrote in part: ... But we include a new exercice in our training since; we call it "katas imaginaires" which is a period in the course where student are creating katas. And believe me or not, it is really interesting, it's a way to use everything you know about Naginata to create something. Because repeating katas is interesting and a neverending duty. This "katas imaginaires" exercices is always different. Off course we ask student to use only real Naginata cuts. And more or less we began to use this exercice to create Rythmical Naginata. Well it is efficient, helps student to learn some movement, and to try different rythm of practice. ...

You will be happy to know that what you call "katas imaginaires" was once an event in Naginata Taikai in Japan. And it is a fine use of creativity, and a wonderful learning experience for the participants, especially under the guidance of knowledgeable instructors. It was dropped from the Taikai events as it was extremely demanding on the Shimpan. :rolleyes:

Modifying the timing of forms is also a time-honored method of learning. :D

But good ideas for pedagogy can be pushed beyond their original intent, and the results are flawed. Here is the metric that I use to determine this from my 1999 presentation: either “Does the application of creativity enhance my ‘martial’ capability?” or “Is my activity still ‘martial’ with the addition of the creative element?”

In the presentation I coined the term “theater-do” or “engeki-do” – flashy moves and effects that wow the crowds (as in modern wushu), but whose martial content is nil or even counter-productive. as an analog to "cinema-do."

In the 1999 presentation, my take on music and Kata is the following: ... Music is a feature of "theater-do." Music accompanies dance and it renders kata as mere entertainment. (I also have a very strong dislike anytime a martial arts activity is referred to as a “dance” or “dance-like,” even when referring to such activities like Aikido and T’ai Chi Ch’uan because it makes improper connotations.) Music superimposes a rhythm on the kata that is unnatural for its effective use. In my opinion, music and kata simply do not mix, just like oil and water (remember the governing metrics). ...

As always, YMMV. ;)

[alch]

If anyone has more naginata videos like that (not the rhythmical naginata one, but the other :)), then do post the links here. :D

[mingshi]

Mr Sosnowski,

Thanks. Finally someone with a better understanding can contribute.

Modern Wushu is an empty shell, devoid of martial content. So are its so-called weapons; they are nothing but a bunch of tin-foil props (my weapons are the Lung-Chuan steel Gin and the iron fan).
Er, everybody knows Modern Chinese Weaponary never resembles the traditional school styles... HOWEVER, in terms of Chinese MA in general, it also depends on what you consider as Modern Chinese MA... Watched a couple of old ladies practicing the fan in at the park near my HK home every morning. Entertaining, so to speak. Wonder why you could pick that as entertainment? :rolleyes:

Back to Taichi.... I've seen people practicing Taichi with radios on at the side. Wasn't seeing if they were doing it to the rythme, or actually listening to the results of Horse-racing... (was at a distance)...

“theater-do” or “engeki-do” – flashy moves and effects that wow the crowds (as in modern wushu), but whose martial content is nil or even counter-productive.
Again, I wasn't refering to THOSE movies. I was saying that, provided with some Budoka, you can have high quality of Martial Arts in a Movie... (should I give examples?) From your point of view, what is the difference between watching Embu Kata, than Kata Imaginaries? How would that differ from un-armoured Kendoka practising?

Mmm... I just said I like Prodigy, I didn't say music should be the dominating factor of Kata... Maybe I did have another interpretation of the word Rythme (mmm... that only exist in the Chinese language probably... wasn't meant to say rythme=go with beats) Try shutting down the music from the Rythme Kata clip... If music is your main concern, would shutting down the music helps? What if the movements are not music-driven? Remeber that most movie also does their soundtrack after filming...

"Is my activity still ‘martial’ with the addition of the creative element?”
A lot of people have been "creative" by means of practicing Kendo, or Martial Arts in general, to be honest. What would be your comment on Koryu XXXjitsu Kata. The diversity of them is a form of creativity, no?

YMMV straight back at you. :D

-----------------------------------------------------
As for Mr. Genzwill,

Wushu is incredible acrobatics that bears a surface resemblance to martial arts. It isn't martial arts.
Sigh. Let me re-qoute myself:
Lack of Martial Arts Knowledge I see...

Much of the fanciest movie stuff is choreographed by people trained in movie martial arts. You can go to school for it, people like Jackie Chan did. Movie martial arts is dedicated to making fights look good on screen or stage.
True. But Jackie Chan is not a Martial Artist, and his moves suck. Name me a REAL martial artist who does bad in movies.

But there's a fight going on in there and the goal of the kata is eventually to recreate the fight and understand how the opportunities are created and exploited, just like a real fight.
Seems stupid to ask this, but... What if the creation of opportunities are limited by time?

Sorry Nagi David. Flames have spreaded.:o

[Neil Gendzwill]

Lack of Martial Arts Knowledge I see...

I've been around the block once or twice.

Although the term wushu can be used to describe all Chinese martial arts, or indeed all martial arts, it is most commonly used to describe the competitive/demonstration style of modern wushu, such as taught at the Peking Opera House. When you said solo competition, this is naturally what Raymond and I assumed.

The main technical objection to music is that it forces the timing of the kata into the beats of the music, otherwise there's no point to having the music. Kata doesn't have rhythm, it has timing. Read both Raymond's reply and mine - we agree with each other and are telling you the same thing.

The aesthetic/gut reaction objection is that the music turns the kata into some sort of "performance" whose purpose is to please the audience, not to train the fighting ability of the practisioner.

Now if you want to have suitable ethnic music playing quietly in the background as part of a demonstration, that's a different thing entirely. But that's not what I saw on the tape. What I saw on the tape is 4 people trying to force naginata movements into the rhythm of a disco song. The steps on that road lead ultimately to star-spangled hakama and flying roundhouse kicks while holding the naginata.

[Nagi David]

Hello alch;

here you are :

my youngest brother in Japan (http://membres.lycos.fr/naginataforet/Fight%20Naginata.5.wmv)

Belgian point European Championship 2001 (http://membres.lycos.fr/naginataforet/equipe2001.wmv)

and thank you everybody for your reactions, I'm not telling you that it's the best way to practise Naginata. But I find it interesting.
One of my objective when I practice is to have fun. And rythmical Naginata is one way. However martial art are a little to serious in peoples mind, but I try never forget that I have ONE LIFE and as Naginata takes a big place in it, I'm loocking for many different experience from it. Maybe I'm wrong but at least, I tryed.

[Atama]

Naganata to music Oh my god ! what will they think of next maybe we should all tie pretty ribbons to our shinai and do jikeiko to swan lake. martial arts to music is a joke i saw a big karate rythmic kata thing on tv and it was crap...if they wanna dance then they should dance but don't call it martial arts.

I'm learning naginata myself and this whole rythmic thing is a farse , i'm an ex-dancer and if i wanted to dance i would'nt be doing martial arts.

[Jakob Ryngen]

Hello everybody!
"Oh my god! What will they think of next..." was about the disaproving phrase a samurai used when we heard about practicing kendo with shinai and bogu (Hurst, Armed Martial Arts of Japan).

For myself, I had great fun the last time I did R-N. While perhaps not very "real" so isn't hitting an opponent on protected parts of the body using an ultra-light naginata either. In Japan R-N also uses techniques that I do not see very often in other Atarashii Naginata (such as striking from kneeling and reverse cuts) and I am grateful for every opportunity to do them with a sensei.

[etherknot]

Nagi David: Finally I get a chance to watch these video clips.

I'm not too crazy about the R.N. stuff. But your group seemed to do it well.

Moral:
If you like it. Do it. If you don't like it, don't do it.

The other clips were much more fun to watch though. :D