Question about kiai.

[Phorest]

Heres a question to get the board moving.

When first starting Kendo you are told to shout "MEN!", "KOTE!", and "DO!" when you attack those areas. But higher ranked/more experienced kendoka seem to just...well....yell whatever they want to when attacking.

Why is this? Are begginers told to call out those areas just so that they have something to say, to practice their kiai? I'm a little lost on this.

[aru-ma]

Keep in mind however a kiai is not just a yell it is an act to concentrate your spirit. For begginers and even higher grade kendoka kiai-ing men when striking men allows them to focus on each strike. In performing a kiai the feeling should be different, it should not come from your throat rather the feeling should come from your stomach. I have to admit though the kiai is not an easy concept for me to understand.

[iwatekenshi]

They are saying it but it just gets personalized.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by iwatekenshi
They are saying it but it just gets personalized.

What he said. Sometimes they get pretty distorted but the person is calling out the correct thing. Also, bear in mind the difference between the kiai when the shinai strikes and just the normal kiai when fighting. The former must be the point name, the latter is just whatever gutteral sound works for you.

[Kingu]

Originally posted by aru-ma
it should not come from your throat rather the feeling should come from your stomach.

I've always been told that kiai should come from the hara-tanden (under the navel).

I also heard that kiai could be silent, then called kensei, is this type of kiai met in kendo??

[alch]

Originally posted by iwatekenshi
They are saying it but it just gets personalized.

I wonder: wouldn't this be an issue in shiai then? If everyone uses a different / personalized kiai, how do the shinpan distinguish between them?

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's just not really an issue. Mostly you can tell if the hit was legitimate and intended even if the kiai is garbled.

[Old Warrior]

As a beginner, I think this is just intended to confuse me. Now I'm not only worried if my footwork is right, my swing on center, my wrists not broken too soon, whether the cut should follow through or be brought back crisply, etc. Now, I have to make sure that when I kiai I remember that head is "mori", not waist which is "heuri"; which must never be confused with "son mok". The real hard part is when we practice and one side is doing mori; while the other is supposed to do heuri and we get confused. All in all it makes for some "interesting" moments.

[Phorest]

Hmm. When I watch my sempai/sensei do kiri-kaeshi...it is just one long continous "AUUUUUUOOOOOOOYYY" sound that he makes every couple times he strikes. Is he really saying "men" in some obscure way? In videos I've watched its just pretty much a guttural shout that kendoka make when they attack.

So you're saying that shimpan just dont discriminate as to what you say, but that you said something in general?

[stinkyKote]

when I do kiai, whether it be in drill or keiko or shiai, I probably just sort of indiscriminately yell something more than half the time- no one seems to complain- ... I also have a friend who's kiai sounds like 'kote!' no matter what point he hits ... it's kinda funny actually-

[Confound]

In the end, it doesn't matter what you say. I've always thought it was ridiculous to announce your strike to the world. As long as the kiai is there, to demonstrate zansshin, that's the important point. You could, theoretically, be running around screaming about mint flavoured dental floss or oreos.

As for kiai centering your energy, or other such metaphysical nonsense, we all know what I think about that.

c

[Kingu]

Originally posted by Confound
As for kiai centering your energy, or other such metaphysical nonsense, we all know what I think about that.

c



So, according to you, what is the purpose of kiai?????????:confused:

[James]

Don't worry about Confound, Kingu, I love your squeaky kiai - er..oh... sorry I was thinking of Pingu...

[kendo_chick]

I believe Kiai is just a release of your spirit and a way for you to "explode" when doing your strikes. I don't really think it matters a whole lot what it sounds like as even my own kiai doesn't really sound like the target half the time.

[Kingu]

Originally posted by James
Don't worry about Confound, Kingu, I love your squeaky kiai - er..oh... sorry I was thinking of Pingu...


lol, second time I'm told that :D


I know nothing about kendo but I'd say your kiai should NOT sound like the target you're aiming. Imagine a karateka screaming: "I'm gonna crush your head". Thanks for the information.... :ermm:

[Phorest]

I don't really think it matters a whole lot what it sounds like as even my own kiai doesn't really sound like the target half the time.
In the end, it doesn't matter what you say.
It's just not really an issue. Mostly you can tell if the hit was legitimate and intended even if the kiai is garbled.

Okay...then why do you think beginners are told to call out the point name if senseis know it'll just end up getting "garbled" or not even be said at all later on?

[alch]

Originally posted by Kingu
I know nothing about kendo but I'd say your kiai should NOT sound like the target you're aiming. Imagine a karateka screaming: "I'm gonna crush your head". Thanks for the information.... :ermm:

That's one of the reasons you're supposed to utter a kiai not before but when you hit the target. Another reason is that uttering the kiai the right way (which I don't understand yet) will contract certain muscles, adding a little more speed or power to the cut. Or so I have learned.

[ufkenshi]

Hey everybody,
Well, theoretically...your kiai should be at the moment of your strike; thus using ki-ken-tai-no ichi. Not before or, as "Kingu" said, that would seem kinda silly to pronounce your hit. But, as long as you perform your kiai at the proper moment, one most certainly should be able to use "men, kote, do" without fear of giving away their target. As far as higher kendoka go, I disagree, for the most part, that they don't use "men, kote, do". If you watch pretty much any AJKF tourny, you can clearly hear them using "men, kote, do" as their kiai for strikes. The only part that sometimes sounds garbled is after one of the kendoka performs what he thinks is clearly a good point, he then "redoubles" and repeats his kiai in order to emphasize his view that the strike was good. Anyways, just my thoughts. ^_^

[Kingu]

Maybe to avoid them to shout in a "non-focused" way (my english is not good enoughe to describe what I want to say). I guess having to tell a specific name helps to produce a "clear" sound. Once you've understood the way to give a good kiai it becomes useless to keep this habit.

my 2 cents...

[ufkenshi]

LOL, oops sorry for the late chime in. There were 2 more posts from when I was typing :P

[Kingu]

oops, sorry, I forgot to read all replies before posting :confused2


I know kiai has not to be uttered before the strike, but I think that having to pronounce a specifical name makes your strike more predictable (I'm talking for very experienced budoka), even more when the name is more than ONE sound (ko-te, me-n). I think it's better for ki ken tai to utter something more "instinctive".

my 2 cents part 2...

[Kingu]

what am I doing whith that edit button????????

[Confound]

Everyone says 'Don't worry about Confound'. This is what happens when you disappear for a while.

At any rate, I don't believe in ghosts, I don't believe in monsters under my bed, and I most certainly don't believe in metaphysical energy or chakra or any other secret mystical powers of kiai. This isn't a martial arts comic book, it's reality. Sorry to shatter the little illusions.

Kiai are part of zansshin, as was said in my previous post. If you still have to ask what that means, then I'd better go emulate Assisi and start preaching in the charnel houses to vultures and rats. (Despite what the Vatican authorized version says, he was not preaching to songbirds.)

c

[Kingu]

Originally posted by Confound
At any rate, I don't believe in ghosts, I don't believe in monsters under my bed, and I most certainly don't believe in metaphysical energy or chakra or any other secret mystical powers of kiai. This isn't a martial arts comic book, it's reality. Sorry to shatter the little illusions.


I don't think ki has been invented by comic books, it's a concept present in eastern civilisations for centuries and I don't think you can compare it with superstitious beliefs.

Of course, you don't have to believe into it, but if I were you, I wouldn't be too affirmative about its non-existence. After all I guess no one believed in electricity in the 16th century; some renowned scientists of the early 20th century said that the atomic power could never be exploited for it was too weak...

I do not believe in monsters under my bed too, no one here told that kiai was the means to make opponents fly through the air or light your eyes to see in the dark.
It's simply a way to attain extreme efficiency in your techniques. I'd like to tell more but all I know comes from various readings cos I'm still a beginner in martial arts. I'd wish an expert in kiaijutsu comes to this forum...

[aru-ma]

Another thing I have to add is in a competition if your kiai+zanshin+form looked really good when your cut was a near hit (as opposed to near miss) you MIGHT just get a point, you can say its a bad shimpan or whatever but it has happened before and it's quite common too although I'd prefer if the point was really valid even if I got the point.

[scbang]

Miyazaki Masahiro got one for all Japan ( I think it's 47th ) tournament. Slow motion shows he hit close to elbow but it was good timing and opening was good. It might have been World Tournament team match final againt Korea ( 10th ). My memory is not as it used to be..

But the point is Miyazaki gets more point than others because his kiai and attack timing is good ( and Zanshin too - Exaggerated one however )..

SC

[sminki]

Right. It was in the 47th All Japan Championships. In the semifinal vs. Eiga. Slow-motion replay revealed that Miyazaki's men actually missed and trailed off to the side of Eiga's men and Eiga answered with a valid suriage do, but Miyazaki's timing, zanshin, etc. was so good that the judges were convinced of his men.

[scbang]

I remember that one. Actually it was over Eiga's shinai wasn't it?
Hidari side men - hey we caught it on the slow motion but I play it back and forth many time in real speed, you really can't tell.
But I'm not advocating re-play for Kendo :-)

SC

[kendokamax]

was on the fist no??

[ak76]

this is somthing i find difficult olso , hopefully as time passes it should become instinctive