New to Kendo, Got a question!

[Clash]

Hi!

My interest in Kendo began for some months ago. I will begin soon.. but what Im searching for is more clashing. Let me explain:

Of the vids I have seen of Kendo it's more like standing on an distance for about 1-2 min.. and then 2-3 fast hits/blocks.. and then again go distance. What I would want is more "Clashing with swords" .. like 7-8 hits/blocks. Where it's all about how skilled you are in blocking or hitting. That would add alot of more feeling to the whole thing

I saw the movie "The last samurai" yesterday, there you can see what I mean. When they practiced they clashed alot more.. and yes I know it's only a movie. But still it is possible to make it reality. Am I searching for another type of sword fighting? If so please tips me.

Or am I just wrong? maybe there is more clashes when you are sparring etc..

Well im just searching for more "sword-action" :) but in japanese style of course.

Any answer is highly appreciated!

[Optomitrist]

Hi clash,


Tell us where you live and we'll see if we can find a dojo for you.

As far as movie fighting like the last samurai. no one does that. the closest thing to what they did would be kenjutsu. It is the art of the japanese sword. It looks good in films, but you know that is not how it goes in reality. Kendo is all about one hit kills not "clashing".

[Kaoru]

To add to that, in real Kenjutsu training, there is no clashing of swords either. It's all serious and is solo kata and paired kata. Some Ryu(styles) have a light sparring element, but not like what you think.

Just remember, The Last Samurai is just a movie. It was all choreographed.

If you are prepred for serious training that takes lots of maturity, please tell us your location. I may be able to find you a dojo.

Kaoru

[Mibu-Ro[Okita]]

I agree with Optomitrist, and Kaoru, but my dojo has (very rarely) an activity that my sensei calls "samurai chess" two teams stand on opposite sides of the dojo and one person from each team makes a move one at a time, taking turns. at first it is one step, one action\reaction, but the game eventually gets up to like 8 steps 8 action\reactions.

really quite entertaining.

Okita.

[taganahan]

yupz, you're looking for a different kind of sword art/fighting. kendo is more "controlled" and "precise". i think you are looking for those medieval sword fights where they whack each other endlessly, no offense. you can do a forum search and you'll find some videos on it.

~taganahan

[Clash]

Thanks for al lthe answers, and yeah the movie is only a movie :)

Kendo is about precision you say, that's very interesting. No im not looking for medieval type, Im fascinated by the japanese sword culture. But a little more action would not hurt :) however Kendo is not about that. Kenjutsu? Hmm I see, heard it sometime before but never really understood what it was.

I live in Sweden/Stockholm.

[Clash]

Seems like I can't edit my post above (correct me if im wrong) so I'll make a new one

It just hitted me. I think actually you got the possibility to make more "action" in Kendo but it's just that it isn't effective. But if you want, you can do that with a friend .. just going on eachother for fun. But in competitions it's more effective to be precise, and controlled. However with the things you learn, the possibilty exist to do it for fun.

Am I correct?

[seibei]

Go to this link
http://www.aikidojo.nl/ksr_kata.html

Check the Tachijutsu and Iai section.

If you are looking for something like the one you saw in the Tachijutsu section, then you should seek a dojo teaching Kenjutsu. There are many styles though, and i dont know if there are kenjutsu dojos in your country. If you do find a good dojo, go for it, no matter which style they are teaching. I'm telling you this because in my country, there are no sword arts dojos, and God knows how much i would like to join such a dojo!!

How old are you?

[Clash]

Hm I searched for
"Tachijutsu" on the site, did not find anything. However I downloaded some clips, I saw one that they were striking often against eachother, but it was not "serious" it was slow sparring. Im a bit confused on what I really am looking for, I think Kendo is what I want, because I understand it's precision and relaxation .. but with the experience you get, you are able to make more "action" with a friend for fun, Am I right?

But in competitions it's more effective to use the sword the way it's meant to be used in Kendo.

If not, maybe Kenjutsu is what Im searching for (is it more "action" ?). Well some guidence would be very nice :)

(Im 17)

[seibei]

You said you watched videos on kendo before. You also watched some movies on the site i mentioned. If you are still confused, then imho, japanese sword arts are not wat you are looking for. May be you are only fascinated by the katana(japanese sword) but you want to use it differently, not the way it is meant to be used.

PS- i mentioned that there are no sword arts dojos in my country, i forgot to mention that despite this, i do practice japanese swordsmanship. *And yes, its confirmed, my sensei learned from Floquet sensei (*this part is not for you CLASH, its for the other members)

[Clash]

Hehe I see, What im confused about is what is what. What is Kendo and what is Kenjutsu and the difference. I must research on that.

Im not confused in the art, I understand what Kendo is about. I have read alot about it. And I want to learn it , then later if I want to have some fun with a friend sparring that should be fine (I hope). I don't really care about the "action" it just would be more fun with a bit more action. But that's not what im after really :)

[seibei]

...if I want to have some fun with a friend sparring that should be fine (I hope). I don't really care about the "action" it just would be more fun with a bit more action. But that's not what im after really :)

Its the fun part with a friend that you are looking for that i cant really understand. Tell me honestly, was it "The Last Samurai" that really triggered your interest for japanese swordsmanship? If yes, i'll advise you to think well before investing your money into learning kendo or kenjutsu. I think you will loose interest quite quickly. No matter how much you read about an art, its only when you are experiencing it that you can judge better if you like it or not. I'm not an expert, and i still have a lot to learn. I dont think sword arts were meant to be fun, i mean "fun" in the way you seem to think.

[seibei]

In case you did not know, a sword fight, if properly executed, usually last for only a few seconds, with only 1-3 hits. If you have to perform 7-8 hits, you are not yet ready.

Do you know about Iaido? If not, try to read some articles about that sword art. Then tell me if you still think the same way about japanese swordsnanship.

[Clash]

No the movie last samurai I saw 2 days ago. I got my interest some month ago. I liked the movie though

Of course it should be fun to practice Kendo. If it's not fun then people would not practice it. It requires alot of hard work and dedication of course, and yes I have seen a properly sword fight that last only a few seconds. I've also seen the final between Korea and Winchester that lasted 10 minutes.

Why I want to learn Kendo is these reasons:

Im very interested in the art

I want to start with something different from all marital arts (kung fu etc)

And I heard alot about it, and watched a training-session here in Sweden. And it seemed really fun and really great. But I believe having fun with a friend using Kendo tehcniques and playing around a bit should not be wrong, I hope not atleast.

[Berugijin]

But I believe having fun with a friend using Kendo tehcniques and playing around a bit should not be wrong, I hope not atleast.

I think that would really mess up your form.

[Clash]

I think that would really mess up your form.

Really? Oh :S okey thanks for the heads up. I've been wondering other things about Kendo, not even close to this topic. Should I create another topic or not?
Don't want to be lame :P

It's about spirituality and the real meaning of Kendo.

[Berugijin]

But I believe having fun with a friend using Kendo tehcniques and playing around a bit should not be wrong, I hope not atleast.

Some clarification, if you practice *kendo* then it's cool. If you are 'playing around' as in just hitting eachother with a shinai and re-enacting Episode II then you will probably mess up your form, get a lot of bad habits, etc...

[Clash]

Praciting Kendo, but with fun I mean maybe hmm ..

Like a little game, Let's see who hits eachother first, and then it's all up on who blocks/hits best.

In dojos (If I am correct) you mostly practice 1 tehcnique over and over again (and that's good!) however, with a friend you maybe want to just simply have fun. But you may be right that it can ruin things. So I think I'll pass that

[LNGUYEN]

First, let clarify the real sword art. It is not about clasing each other and stading there and blocking. No matter how good your sword is, it will be damaged when steel hitting steel. Actually they only block when there is no other way of survive. Sword art is about learning how to kill your opponent before he kill you and that is just an instant moment, instead of the fight would be on and on, day and day like in the movie. Kendo, Kenjutsu, Iaido, or Chinese sword art are about reaction, control, find the opening and kill in one moment. It is not about dancing around with the sword. If you look for more action, then you can learn Kendo too. From begining, the beginner are taught to attack and keeping attack, no blocking and I think you will like it. just come to join a dojo and you will find out. The truth is out there.

[Berugijin]

First, let clarify the real sword art. It is not about clasing each other and stading there and blocking. No matter how good your sword is, it will be damaged when steel hitting steel. Actually they only block when there is no other way of survive. Sword art is about learning how to kill your opponent before he kill you and that is just an instant moment, instead of the fight would be on and on, day and day like in the movie. Kendo, Kenjutsu, Iaido, or Chinese sword art are about reaction, control, find the opening and kill in one moment. It is not about dancing around with the sword. If you look for more action, then you can learn Kendo too. From begining, the beginner are taught to attack and keeping attack, no blocking and I think you will like it. just come to join a dojo and you will find out. The truth is out there.

Are you sure about the Chinese sword art? I've seen people do 'wushu' (believe this is the correct spelling) and it's got nothing to do with swordmanship (imho). Basically it's just dancing around with a sword in your hand. Spinning around like a ballerina wouldn't be very effective in a real swordfight I think...

[Clash]

Thanks for the answers guys. This topic is now over for me

I still feel Kendo is right for me

[Neil Gendzwill]

One of the interesting things to watch for in movie sword fights is where they are attacking. Usually, they are attacking each others swords. Why? The object of a real sword fight is to kill the other guy. The object of a movie sword fight is to provide entertainment. So in real sword fights we mostly attack the other guy, not his sword. As soon as you do that, it's not possible to bash at each other for an extended period of time, because you either hit the guy or move so close that the sort of extended clashing you're thinking of is no longer possible.

Having said that, beginners' matches have plenty of action. I think you'll find them exciting enough. As you get older and better, it gets simpler and more complicated at the same time - it looks less exciting from the outside, but it's more interesting from the inside.

[seibei]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i always thought that if you are enjoying your training, it means that either you are not training properly or you have already reached a high level. Most of the time, my training sessions end with my left big toe as red as a tomato, and it seems a callus is being formed there. My right forearm also gets a real beating. Luckyly, i'm used to kneeling (its part of my culture), so seiza and the suwari waza dont cause much pain to my knees. I'm talking mostly about my iaido training, and i suppose kendokas too must be experiencing some sort of pain during their training, eg during suburi.

[Clash]

Of course you should enjoy your training Seibei, sure you might have some physical damage after the training. But it should be fun

If you think it's boring then you should not even practice it.

[seibei]

Of course you should enjoy your training Seibei, sure you might have some physical damage after the training. But it should be fun



Martial arts training were never meant to be fun!!!!!!!!! if you want to have fun, you go to the disco or the movies!! i dont know if you have practiced martial arts before, and i dont know how are they taught in yr country. Or maybe i dont understand the real meaning of the word "fun"

-Dont let emotions get involved in yr training

When u r training and you find wat u r doing very interesting, u like it, u do yr best and eventually u improve with time and u are very satisfied.
When u r training and you find wat u r doing NOT AT ALL interesting, u cant concentrate properly since u r getting bored. U will never improve in this way. A good example is suburi(since i dont practice kendo, i am quoting wat i've read somewhere on this site). U have to repeat the same movement over and over again, maybe some 100 times or more. U have to perform all the swings equally, ie with the same spirit, speed, power etc..

Do you think u will be able to do this if you let emotions get involved? (First 5 swings-"wow its fantastics", at around 15th -20th swings-"boy, how much more to go plz?", at around 40th swing "OUF, when will this be over so that i can do something else!"

When you train, you must find it neither interesting, nor boring. You just do wat u have to do (said in other words:-wat u r told to do). Difficult hey?! Well, i personally believe that this the spirit that everyone training seriously should adopt(any comments please from experienced students and senseis). Only then you will give the best of yourself and in the long run, you will succeed to reach where few people have reached, for u must first train yr mind, the rest will follow. This is the spirit with which i'm training - btw, i did not read it in any book or watched in on any videos, its just the way i think things should be. Lets see wat the other members have to say about this.


If you think it's boring then you should not even practice it.


When i go back to the dojo to train, its not because if found the previous session interesting or watever. Its because of something difficult to explain with words and imho, something you have not yet experienced. If i understood well, u have not yet joined a dojo. Go and join one. I am very impatient to know how will you feel and think after, say 10 training sessions.

[h2o]

Are you sure about the Chinese sword art? I've seen people do 'wushu' (believe this is the correct spelling) and it's got nothing to do with swordmanship (imho). Basically it's just dancing around with a sword in your hand. Spinning around like a ballerina wouldn't be very effective in a real swordfight I think...
Actually, I also thought chinese swordsmanship was mostly dancing and not very effective. Until my friend, who has trained tai-chi for a few years showed me and explained what exactly you do in the various "unnecessary" moves. And I tell you, tai-chi is really really evil, and probably really damned effective as well.

I personally still prefer the more clean japanese style of swordsmanship, but don't think the chinese are just dancing.


Martial arts training were never meant to be fun!!!!!!!!! if you want to have fun, you go to the disco or the movies!! i dont know if you have practiced martial arts before, and i dont know how are they taught in yr country. Or maybe i dont understand the real meaning of the word "fun"
Maybe not in the days of the samurai, when they actually got to use their swords on other people. But unless you happen to live in the middle of a warzone you would never have to use your martial art. I train kendo and iaido for my own pleasure. That is, I'm just having fun. I believe that if you haven't got fun during practise, you will never get any good at it.
In "our" country (Sweden, that is) martial arets are trained for entertainment only. That does not however mean that we do not take our training seriously. I'm quite certain that if you ask most kendoka or iaidoka why they train kendo/iaido, they will say "Because it's fun". They will most probably not answer "Because it is neither interesting or boring and I need it to kill people" :rolleyes:

[seibei]

I believe that if you haven't got fun during practise, you will never get any good at it.

Its all about why someone is training, how he is training, and where he wants his training to lead him.

When i joined the dojo, i had only swordarts in my mind. Sensei started to teach me the BO. I trained seriously because training with the bo was wat i was told to do. Today, i still have only swordarts in my mind, but i can tell you, imho, i'm good with the BO. No fun was required to get good at it. i just trained with good spirit. Later i came to know why i was taught the BO first.

[h2o]

Well, it's all up to you I suppose, but I personally wouldn't clog up my sparetime with something I did not find entertaining. I like to play with swords, so that's what I do in my sparetime. There are ofcourse slow and boring parts of training as well, and you might not always understand why you have to do something in special way, but if training was NEVER fun, why would I keep doing it? Beats me, really...

If you are not training for the entertainment, then what drives you?

I think you would feel better if you took a cookie, cheered up, and went to actually have fun on you practise. :wink:

[crabbi]

One of the interesting things to watch for in movie sword fights is where they are attacking. Usually, they are attacking each others swords. Why? The object of a real sword fight is to kill the other guy. The object of a movie sword fight is to provide entertainment. So in real sword fights we mostly attack the other guy, not his sword. As soon as you do that, it's not possible to bash at each other for an extended period of time, because you either hit the guy or move so close that the sort of extended clashing you're thinking of is no longer possible.

Having said that, beginners' matches have plenty of action. I think you'll find them exciting enough. As you get older and better, it gets simpler and more complicated at the same time - it looks less exciting from the outside, but it's more interesting from the inside.
As I was reading through this thread, I was going to post a comment, then I got to Neil-San's post and he had anticipated my point...

Just to reinforce it though Clash-San... There may appear to be little or no action at a physical level from an observer's point of view, but from the participant's perspective, the struggle is very real ... seeking tiny advantages in position to allow the winning attack; trying to undermine the confidence of teh opponent by using your 'Seme' (Check out other threads to find out more about Seme)... then when an opening appears, you have to act extremely quickly to take advantage of it or ... it's gone and you've left an opening for your opponent.

This stuff is happening ten / a hundred times a second... the only evidence to the onlooker can be small movements of the combatants as they seek to control the centre line and the psychological elements of the contest.

Also, just to disabuse you... Kendo training rarely consists of repeating endless single techniques for hours on end. I have found training sessions to be extremely varied in content and (especially when doing attacking practice) quite challenging psychologically and physically...

Also, you meet some great people...

Hope this helps to give you a different perspective... But the best thing is to try it...

cheers

[seibei]

If you are not training for the entertainment, then what drives you?


As i said before, its something that i cant explain with words.

[h2o]

As i said before, its something that i cant explain with words.
Whatever makes you happy. Bought a cookie yet? :wink:

[seibei]

Whatever makes you happy.

ya, as long as one is satisfied with wat his doing, no matter for which reason he is doing it.


Bought a cookie yet? :wink:

I prefer muffins:)


U practice iaido, isnt it? Which ryu?

[h2o]

U practice iaido, isnt it? Which ryu?
I think I'll be stuck with ZNKR for quite a while longer. I am still an ungraded beginner. But when it comes down to choosing a koryu the choice will probably be between Musohinden Ryu or Hoki Ryu. MSR is as far as I know the largest koryu in Sweden, which means it will be the easiest one to train.

[seibei]

I think I'll be stuck with ZNKR for quite a while longer. I am still an ungraded beginner. But when it comes down to choosing a koryu the choice will probably be between Musohinden Ryu or Hoki Ryu. MSR is as far as I know the largest koryu in Sweden, which means it will be the easiest one to train.

Thats good. i dont know about Hoki ryu, but i practice MSR. Its a good koryu, which gives you the opportunity to develop a lot of abilities.

[Clash]

Yeah I learned the past few days how you fight in Kendo. Much better then just blowing hits on eachother. It's all about the one fatal hit, alot of fun I say.

And I agree , it should be fun. Seibei I know what feeling you are talking about. A feeling with no name :P I felt it before, but I prefer feeling that Im having fun and a good time! :)

Thanks everybody for their respones. Another question if you have time to answer is

Can I practice Iaido while I practice Kendo?
I like them both alot. As long it does not ruin anything I would like to start on both at the same time, is it good or not?

[crabbi]

Yeah I learned the past few days how you fight in Kendo. Much better then just blowing hits on eachother. It's all about the one fatal hit, alot of fun I say.

And I agree , it should be fun. Seibei I know what feeling you are talking about. A feeling with no name :P I felt it before, but I prefer feeling that Im having fun and a good time! :)

Thanks everybody for their respones. Another question if you have time to answer is

Can I practice Iaido while I practice Kendo?
I like them both alot. As long it does not ruin anything I would like to start on both at the same time, is it good or not?
Hi Clash-San

Iaido and Kendo are regarded as complementary... many people on this forum practice both...

Cheers

[h2o]

Can I practice Iaido while I practice Kendo?
I like them both alot. As long it does not ruin anything I would like to start on both at the same time, is it good or not?
Since I am myself a beginner in both kendo and iaido, I would definately say go for it. You must however pay attention to all the little details so that you do not mix them up. Starting on the exact same time might be difficult, so perhaps delaying one of them half a year might be good.

[seibei]

Can I practice Iaido while I practice Kendo?
I like them both alot. As long it does not ruin anything I would like to start on both at the same time, is it good or not?

Its excellent my friend!! Kendo and iaido are the two arms of the same body. If both are available to you, then go for it. No doubt about that. Kendo improves yr iaido and iaido improves yr kendo. I have not personally experienced it since i do only iaido and kenjutsu. Unfortunately Kendo is not available to me. But any knowledgeable person would agree with me that its excellent if one can do both kendo and iaido. I you have more questions about iaido, u can ask. I will answer as much as i know.

[Clash]

Thanks a bunch! I can't wait to begin :)

[Mibu-Ro[Okita]]

Yeah, my sensei teaches both. He will randomly decide whether we are doing Iaido or Kendo based on how many people brought their armor, and most of us don't have any yet, so we usually do Iaido.


Okita

[Berugijin]

Its excellent my friend!! Kendo and iaido are the two arms of the same body. If both are available to you, then go for it. No doubt about that. Kendo improves yr iaido and iaido improves yr kendo. I have not personally experienced it since i do only iaido and kenjutsu. Unfortunately Kendo is not available to me. But any knowledgeable person would agree with me that its excellent if one can do both kendo and iaido. I you have more questions about iaido, u can ask. I will answer as much as i know.

Can you be more specific? I can understand that iaido can improve your kendo kata, but I imagine it's not the only thing. More details please...

[seibei]

Can you be more specific? I can understand that iaido can improve your kendo kata, but I imagine it's not the only thing. More details please...

Since i dont practice kendo, i cannot speak about it according to my own experience. But i do practice iaido and kenjutsu. In iaido, your opponent is imaginary, but if someone is watching you performing the katas, he will "see" the opponent if you are performing well. It demands more concentration since you have to apply proper metsuke, semé, zanshin etc to someone who is not there actually. When in turn you are practicing you kendo or kenjutsu, you will find it easier to use your mind during your practice as now your opponent is real. Futhermore, you can use the feeling you are experiencing when in front of a real opponent and try to use the same feeling when practicing your iaido, ie with an imaginary opponent. So it do helps a lot when doing both kendo/kenjutsu and iaido. Anyway, techniques used in kendo apply to iaido also and vice-versa, like kamae, te no uchi, the sword strikes, etc...I hope you understand what i am trying to say.

[Martino]

Can you be more specific? I can understand that iaido can improve your kendo kata, but I imagine it's not the only thing. More details please...

Iaido is about detail.
Kendo is about adapting.

From Iaido you will learn how to focus on the little thing and get them right time and time again. (when the cut if finished my hands will be here and here, and the blade will be at this angle every time)
From Kendo you will learn to look at the big picture. (My goal is to hit him on the head and he is try to do the same to me, I must get in first)

Simplified, but I thing you get the point. It has more to do with attitude that the psychical motions observed.

[Andou]

I'm not exactly too fluent on the practice of iaido, but I do believe it could help your kendo. Seeing as how kendo is pretty intense (save for kata), I think iaido could help add another perspective. As Martino said, iaido is about detail. Seeing it in action by an expert can be as intimidating as watching some high-ranking kendoka (in my opinion anyway). Therefore, I think if you could combine the precision of iaido and the reflexes/power/action of kendo, you would probably be a fairly versatile practitioner.

[mad_god]

Can you be more specific? I can understand that iaido can improve your kendo kata, but I imagine it's not the only thing. More details please...

Tenouchi
Zanshin
Hara
Swing
KI
Kigurai
Kamae
Posture
Breathing
Enough?

MAD GOD

[h2o]

Tenouchi
Nah, that particular part is, from what I have learned so far, really different. But the rest of the terms on your list sound true. The ones I understood anyway :cool:

What is kigurai and hara?