Kendo after 50 years?

[munenmuso]

Do you think that the kendo we practice today will be the same kendo we will be practicing after ,say, 50 years? Has anymone here can differentiate kendo 50 years ago or earlier. Despite being a traditional art, kendo has experienced certain changes in terms of equipments and regulations or rules through the course of it's history. Though it's too early, I'm just wondering how kendo will be experienced by our children in the next 50 years. Do you think that there are certain rules now that will be removed in the future or there will be or should be additional or amendments of rules for improvement?

Just curious, again......:)

[aru-ma]

Personally I'm happy with the way kendo is today. If anything kendo should be more affordable, at the moment kendo seems to be one of the most expensive martial arts I've known in terms of initial cost (bogu, gi/hakama, shinai) and usually this is what drives people away, well this and lack of comitment really.

I don't expect much change in kendo in 50 years but if there is I'd like to see how it got to that.

[nodachi]

If people continue to be so fervently bound to tradition then I expect it to remain the same for the most part (I have no problem with that though).

Maybe even the bogu won't change. They don't make things like they used to and the whole thing about hand made being best may not help to change the whole bogu equipment and price. Just a random thought though, I could be wrong, usually am... :)

[scbang]

If you've ever tried "draw a pistol" contest ( usually during the trip in Southwest part of USA - mimicking gun fight ), you might see what happens to the future of some sport when only the speed and result counts.

What they measure is how fast you draw a gun and fire. No aiming, no looking at the opponent, no intimidation factor. You can close your eyes and listen to the signal and fire. It's not at all like the ones we see in the movie. In fact, world champion for this contest, I hear, is Japanese. ( Not that I'm against Japanese but in Japan, almost noone owns pistol ).
I don't Kendo degenerate into something like " however you hit in what form, you can score if you hit the right place with electronic sensor." type of sport. 90% of what I'm learning these days is about the keeping the center and maintaining right posture. That probably has nothing to do with scoring which is where most of the sport is heading these days.

Oh well. SC

[mingshi]

How many of us here would become 7th Dan and above, in the year 2053?

As I'll be at my 70s...

Ha. :D

[kendokamax]

...very very disturbing

[rfoxmich]

[QUOTE=munenmuso]Do you think that the kendo we practice today will be the same kendo we will be practicing after ,say, 50 years?

I hope not. I feel that much of the kendo that's done now is based on results rather than attitude and personal development. Win at all costs seems to be much more the norm than in the past. The match quality of the ZNKR championships is visibly lower to me than say those of the 80's.

I think that there's a real problem now that many of the 'true kendo masters' are dying off without successors that are at their level. To improve kendo beyond what it is today we will need to work hard to
- Re-think why we do kendo if it's for sport, then kendo will become a sport.
So be it. I'll practice something but it won't be kendo as sport.

- Start researching the foundations of kendo. This is going to mean asking a
lot of questions of the people who are still alive who can understand
historical writings of kendo. Translation seems a nice idea, but it's not really
possible to do a good translation of something you don't understand... that's
why go-rin-no-sho has so many translations, none of them really.
satisfying.

- We have to practice kendo for kendo sake, not for the sake of winning
or losing. In that way we can become compassionate in victory,
gracious in defeat and draw lessons for our kendo and our life from both.
In that way we will try to do our best without the fear of losing, and so
show our best.

RF.

[Nik.Koch]

rfoxmich
We have to practice kendo for kendo sake, not for the sake of winning or losing. In that way we can become compassionate in victory,
gracious in defeat and draw lessons for our kendo and our life from both.
In that way we will try to do our best without the fear of losing, and so
show our best.

Great Answer. On my last trip to Japan in 2001 I was happy to see some old All Japan Kendo Championships Videos of the early seventies in black/white. They were amazing due to toma maai and very clear an big waza. A pleasure to watch. Today the level has gone down and it becomes more and more a sport attitude. The focus is set on getting the point. No matter how. But every one can decide for himself what Kendo he or she wants to practice.

Best Regards
Nik

[Shogun97]

at the moment kendo seems to be one of the most expensive martial arts I've known in terms of initial cost (bogu, gi/hakama, shinai)

Well yes, but the Shinai isn't expensiv at all ( I got one for 15€( about the same in $)) and if you clean your other stuff after you used it , it will last for more than 10 years!

And yes I think Kendo will be the same in 50 years time(well not quiet the same but most things will not have changed).

[Bleda]

You're still talking a $500+ investment in equipment within th first 6th months though(for most people). That stops many of the younger people from being able to partake in the art since they lack the income thereby depriving us of people that can gain the required amount of train to be true successors of some of the greater kendoka. Someone who starts in their late 20's is not going to have enough time as compared to that 12-13 year old kid. By the time they start the 12-13 has 10 years of train under his belt.

[Shogun97]

You're still talking a $500+ investment in equipment within th first 6th months though(for most people). That stops many of the younger people from being able to partake in the art since they lack the income thereby depriving us of people that can gain the required amount of train to be true successors of some of the greater kendoka. Someone who starts in their late 20's is not going to have enough time as compared to that 12-13 year old kid. By the time they start the 12-13 has 10 years of train under his belt.

You're right there of course!
I'm 16 and hardly have money, however I will get my bogu(which is the most expensive equipment) as a birthday gift.
I think most of the parents are able to give the equipment as a gift(birthday, chrismas......) to their children, they should be able to get the money out of somewhere!

[Tholon]

I used to train Kendo in my youth, like 20 years ago. Time flies when you are having funny.
Now that I have taken up the training again, I can assure you that very little has happened in 20 years. The same routines, the same training and the same problems. And I can just assume that not much will happen in the next 20 years to come.
Which is for good and for bad!

When it comes to cost - Kendo is not an expensive hobby!
Compare is with Ice-hockey, Golf, Tennis. Skiing, motorsport of any kind, and you will find that Kendo is on the low-budget side.

[wetworks]

I believe that at the present Kendo is already changing. Well not in its theories or waza but look at the equipment.

Carbon Shinnai...Titanium Men...

50 years from now the spirit of Kendo may remain as it had been but equipment wise we could be well looking at Light (saber) Shinnai. Grill-less Men w/ clear but breathable lexan face shield. High tech fabrics for the Bogu and Keikogi and Hakama.

Who knows?

[Twobitmage]

Well there already was a small change in practice, and i've only been doing kendo for 2.5-3 years!

my sensei came in one day, and said something about changing slightly the way we bow, since everyone was doing it incorrectly..

[Shogun97]

I believe that at the present Kendo is already changing. Well not in its theories or waza but look at the equipment.

Carbon Shinnai...Titanium Men...

50 years from now the spirit of Kendo may remain as it had been but equipment wise we could be well looking at Light (saber) Shinnai. Grill-less Men w/ clear but breathable lexan face shield. High tech fabrics for the Bogu and Keikogi and Hakama.

Who knows?'Luke......I'm your father!!'>haevy breathing<
'NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!'
:smiley:
Just kidding.....well maybe he is right:confused: !?

[munenmuso]

Guys, do you think that they will put those wires at our back and wear tight clothes like those in western fencing in the near future or perhaps zanshin can be evaluated by computers thru detecting cameras as perhaps standardizing forms thru motion capture to lessen human error in judging a clear hit points?

[Will]

That's more like 200 years because I doubt anyone would want to invest that much money on kendo technology.

[Anjin-san]

however, you might want to allow for general technological advances having an effect on kendo. For example, you can get dougi and hakama made of synthetic materials, at one point that was new technology.

If the rest of the world develops some cheap to manufacture, self-cleansing, self repairing fabric then this kind of thing can be used for dougi and hakama, without any loss in kendo tradition (except of course if they were to make a non-bleeding dougi and hakama, I kinda like being dyed blue after buying new kit).

I think in kendo the technological advances will be as such, new materials for the equipment will be developed and used, this generally doesn't have any detrimental effect on what kendo entails.

However with regards to changes in actual technique, only time will tell. Somewhere on these boards I read that mune-tsuki used to be a valid target. It makes me wonder what other valid targets there used to be, and the reasons behind them not being in use any longer ( there must be more to it than 'too easy a target against someone in jodan' ). Looking ahead it seems uncertain what they could possibly change about kendo next.

On the other hand it is worth keeping in mind the ones making the official changes to kendo are probably a bunch of 8th dan sensei's... which means they probably know best.

[Tholon]

I read a fascinating Kendo tutorial. It was written by Noma Hishasi in 1929. He was brought up in a famous swordsman family.
It gave me a new perspective on Kendo, when I can read a tutorial that was written 75 years ago. And to find it useful!
Also, he describes his fear of that Kendo would be just another sport.

So during the most turbolent 75 years in human history, Kendo hasn't changed that much

BTW here's a link to "The Kendo Reader"
http://www.kendo.nu/pdf/KendoReader.pdf

[kanyil]

scoring a point in fencing is not only determined by the electronic beep, the referee also has to check whether the person who made the strike had "initiative" (e.g. attacking first). In short, scoring in fencing is hardly an automated process.

I imagine if Kendo ever adopts electronic scoring then zanshin, as well as other non black and white factors could be left up safely in the hands of the referees.

I love the feeling of having an unique, hand made bogu, but I am not entirely against Nike/Mizuno/Adidas etc going into the bogu market for the simple reason that more competition generally leads to more innovation.

[Old Warrior]

"scoring a point in fencing is not only determined by the electronic beep, the referee also has to check whether the person who made the strike had "initiative" (e.g. attacking first). In short, scoring in fencing is hardly an automated process."

Only foil and saber have a "right of way" rule. Epee does not; which is why I found it so attractive. Also, the whole body is a target so it really does approximate a duel, where a thrust to the sword hand would end an encounter.

The whole idea that there is something elegant or noble about warefare is somewhat repugnant. Wars were typically fought by the unskilled unwashed masses where participants lashed out at anything they could hit on a field strewn with the dead and dying in utter mass confusion. I tend to doubt that great swordsman fared better than unskilled peasants in the crush of most battles (but what do I know?).

I actually believe that the measure of true swordsmanship is more likely to be seen in a Kendo match than in a duel where a quirky adreniline motivated action could win the day. On a slightly different note, if you want to approximate reality (I'm not suggesting that this is desireable), a kendo match should be one point and simultaneous points should result in the elimination of both competitors.