Anticipation vs. Pure Reaction

[scbang]

Not sure this is only me or everyone does it.

I think we are supposed to empty our mind and react to our partner ( or opponent ) during keiko. However, many times I'm acticipating their move and already decided upon certain technique against that move. If I'm wrong, I just hit men as a defense or block. I think this gives you better chance against higher Dan players when you are beginner. However, I'm started to think this is because I'm training with same people most of the time so I know what they do ( Not many chance to do Musa-Sugyo when you have a full-time job and family ) and it actually is a bad habit that will slow down my progress as a Kendoka.

Two questions ( Someone might want to run a survey if you know how )..

1. Do you do it? ( All the time, sometimes, never )
2. Is it bad thing to do and will slow down your progress in Kendo training?

OK, I'm ready to be shot at.. Go for it.

SC " Nothing is something but something else"

[munenmuso]

Strategy and reflex has a very fine line between them. But it all depends on the collective informations you have gained against an opponent you have been playing with for the last several years. Since you've mentioned that your only practicing with one dojo, chances are you know your opponent pretty well and can take advantage of his every move since his moves are already indelible on your mind, the factor of anticipation is much higher. But anticipating an opponent's moves requires reaction, as reflex is developed through repetition of experience or observation of repeated phenomenas.

This post won't help for sure. I'm only good at guessing the wrong answers..hehe:D

[scbang]

I want some high ranking Dan's opinion here ( 5th and up ). Are we supposed to guess or are we only supposed to attack after seeing an opening? Is guessing a bad habit?

SC

[JSchmidt]

You're supposed to create the opening, by correct use of pressure, seme and footwork...and that's where kendo gets really really really difficult!.
I've found it easier to practice, by making the opponent attack the place you want him to attack..ie opening up the men slightly while applying pressure, to force a men cut to which you can use debana/oji waza...but applying that to straight shikake waza is tricky.

Jakob

[Old Warrior]

I'm a Kendo beginner but an experienced Epee fencer. I think that your reflexes take over when faced with an attack and even an instantaneous counter-attack may seem to come out of nowhere. I don't believe that an offensive attack can be purely a matter of emptying your mind and seeing what seems to appear available. I think fencing is more than autonomic nerve responses.

I like to watch who I am about to fence and see what clues their body gives about their next movement. I look for favorite techniques, repetitive patterns in preparation, and even the distance between their front and back foot. I look to see what parry they favor or if they choose to use distance as their best defense. None of these things would be available if I was immersed a the "still water" mindset, relying on my learned responses.

I can't, yet, speak for Kendo, but I can't believe its different than my Epee fencing experience.

[hamish]

Ideally, you want to control your opponent so that you force them to attack at the targets and timings that you dictate, and then pick them off as they start to move, or think about moving. Before you get to that level you need to concentrate on attacking the openings you see, or making new ones.

Conscious strategies such as checking your opponent out before you fight them, and watching what they do are good, and I don't think guessing what they're going to do is bad at all. If anything its a good stage to pass through. Sometimes your guess will be wrong and you'll get clocked and you'll gradually learn to read your opponent, and guess more correctly, even with people you've never fought before.

Having said that, you should not be just sitting back waiting for someone to attack, and then applying the same old response to each attack. That approach will not improve your kendo. You should be applying it in the vein of 'If I do this, then I guess they'll probably do that.'

Remembering how well you guessed in many encounters builds up to experience and a knowledge of what different types of opponent do when you attack them.

Hamish

[Old Warrior]

I don't think your use of some form of the word "guess" at least 3 times does justice to the thought that prior behavior is predictive of future performance. Kendo is definitely different from Epee fencing, in many ways. In particular, the use of "parries" is not a substantial part of the art and does not occupy a lot of time in practice. The target area is so restricted that obvious martial techniques must be eschewed for learned responses. I can see already that I have a very long way to go to master even a small amount of the requisite mental discipline.

Observing body movement is the only way to predict what your opponent will do and referencing the concept by calling it "guessing" is to minimize the value of the task that a trained mind will perform.

Perhaps, its wishful thinking, but I'm 54; which seems a bit old to begin the journey down the Kendo path. But the one thing that I bring to the table, that all the youngsters do not, is many years of sword "combat". The need and purpose for combination attacks and immediate counter-attacks is ingrained. The understanding that I can never move faster than the average 20 year old and therefore must have superior timing, distance and blade control is obvious to me. I have difficulty accepting that there is absolutely no "advantage" to a mature and trained mind and that automatic resposes are the epitome. Nevertheless, I am a humble student and there is much for me to learn and understand.

[nodachi]

I don't think your age means you will never be able to be faster than the average 20 year old. The kendoka here in Japan who are in their 50's, 60's, and older seem to move at lightning speed and it is hard to even see what they did unless they want you to see it when they are teaching you.

You may not be sprinting around in a match like the younger folks, but you can still give a whooping and get faster in your strikes. I think it is more of an experience issue rather than the body just not working like it used to.

I also think that the more you do kendo, you more you will just be able to react without thinking. I surprized myself yesterday and got a genuine point against someone who has been doing kendo for 10 years. One moment I was in chudan, and the next I said, BAM! I should hit men now. Didn't really fully comprehend why it was such a great opportunity to attack, I just did, and it worked. Granted this happens virtually never since I am still super new to kendo, but I think as one gets more experience these moments of acting without thinking will happen more and more.

[munenmuso]

I agree to Nodachi.Unlike in any other sport, mastering kendo doesn't mean that you have to be fast alone and old age here is not a disadvantage in fact it is an asset, that is if kendo is taken on the right path. Perhaps on other sports speed is essential epecially if you used to be on the track in field. Ever fenced with a 75 year old 7th dan. Man, if I live several times again I will never win against that old man even with my unorthodoxed kendo. I know that I was faster than him and I am at the prime of my youth. But never touched him even in tsuba tserai. Immovable spirit transcends the physical aspects of kendo. This is the best part, I can still continue and improve kendo even at old age..

Read Moriji Mochida (10thdan, 89yo)....

[scbang]

Yes, speed isn't everything.

A few years ago, after I had a practice session with a young Go-dan, I thought he was the fastest Kendoka I've ever seen. His Kote was so fast I couldn't see it coming.

Then I had a session with a professional Nana-dan who's stroke I can clearly see but I couldn't do anything to avoid it or counter - Don't know why. He even took my Shinai out of my hand once without much effort.

Towards the end of the session, these two senseis started to practice each other. I thought it was going to be something to watch.
Very fast young one and very experienced and seasoned one.

To my disappointment, it wasn't much of a match. Go-dan was acting just like me. Losing his shinai and his fast stroke nowhere to be found. Nana-dan sensei's stroke doesn't seem to be any faster. It just seems Go-Dan lost all his speed and power.

Much much more to learn I guess.. SC

[ben]

OW I always seem to be addressing your posts directly. I like the experience you bring from fencing to kendo. However there is (at least?) one major difference in mindset between the two.

"Sutemi" means 'to go for broke' 'to risk it all' and it is central to kendo psychology. The shinken (real sword) is so dangerous an object that even playing around with one can be lethal. Often in shinken shobu, both kenshi would be killed. Therefore the philosophy arose that, since you would probably die anyway, you should invest your (one-and-only) attack with everything you have. Hence the lack of emphasis in kendo on parrying techniques, the use of both hands, the front-on stance, u.s.w.

In such a situation it is not surprising that the forefathers of kendo tried to do away with too much "on-field" mental analysis. Or rather, they took it further. What they came up with was, I believe, much more than just trained reflexes.

Scbang's story above is a common one which I'm still trying to work out after 15 years of kendo.

So I think there are some differences between kendo and fencing. Not many but some. But I'm interested to hear what you discover.

Oh, to answer the question, I often decide upon an attack before my opponent moves. What I find though is that often, after investing everything into this strategy mentally, for some reason I go and do something else completely different without planning to. It's often successful.

b

[Old Warrior]

Ben:

This is a great discussion.

You are definitely right that on the field of "combat" everything is so fluid that planned actions frequently change instantaneously. That's why my favorite epee attack is to close the distance on an opponent's preparation, disrupt his preparatory routine, and then lunge into his chest. I have learned to disguise distance by changing my arm bend so the blades remain in the same position but I have edged in closer. If I can back the opponent to the end of the strip they cannot retreat and there only hope is to parry.

The history of sword combat that evolved into modern Kendo, is instructive, but I'm not so sure it's absolutely applicable in the sport context. I have watched my classmates spar for the last 4 months. I can see who prefers what attack and who is weak when in close. This data has to affect how I would fight with them. I can see how I would use a mori (men) attack just to get in close because some of my classmates would not like me being there. I always commit myself 200% to an attack (that's why I need a knee brace). But why wouldn't I let my mental computer tell me which one has the best perceived odds of success? If I'm wrong - I learned something.

Well, I got my Bogu last night. I recounted my experience in another thread. If the Men wings will loosen up enough to allow me to raise my hands, I may even get a chance to see if any of my fencing background will be helpful.

[Charlie]

Funny, I was just thinking about this.

It seems to me that in kendo, the process of fighting is this:

1) Your eyes and body take a quick snapshot of your opponent's posture. maai, etc. They send this info to the brain.

2) The brain decides what the best attack would be based on the info. (Men, kote men, etc.)

3) You make the attack.

4) Repeat.

All in the span of seconds or partial seconds.

So, really, there is some anticipation or guessing of what the opponent will do or what will be open, but it's not very conscious, and some kind of merger between conscious and unconscious takes place. This is me thinking out loud, BTW.

[Old Warrior]

Charlie;

As I have repeated many times before - I can't speak for Kendo.

In Epee fencing, I see each opponent like a puzzle that needs to be figured out. If I haven't fenced with you before I will begin at distance, in a tight on guard position, with my point on line. I will make a quick thrust toward your wrist to see if you defend by moving the blade up (pushing my blade to the side) or down (pushing my blade downwards). If you are bouncing on your toes I will be expecting a fleche (a leaping attack) so I want to keep the maximum distance to give me the time to parry and see just how fast you are.

Every attack of mine will be a combination set up by a feint or a counter attack that I am anticipating. Rarely, will I ever use an attack of the first intention because I am too old to out move an opponent who is less than 1/2 my age. Don't get me wrong, I am usually much faster than my opponents believe and therefore I have been able to beat National ranked competitors although I am just a saavy club fencer.

Everyone seems to be suggesting that Kendo is primarily using attacks of the first intention - in other words, I see it, I hit it. This whole "mind like still water approach" seems to be diametrically opposed to what's going on in my Epee brain.

I can see I'm going to have a lot of shinai bruises until I get this sorted out. I'm getting exhausted thinking about it.

[munenmuso]

Yeah. Really really zennish about it. Have to practice it for a long time before actions become instinctive and natural without effort.

[ben]

OW - the analysis you describe is a very important part of kendo. You can't fight everyone the same and expect success, that's a given. The trick you describe of sneaking distance but keeping the swords at seemingly the same relation is one I also use and it works very well with people up to a certain grade. It is of course necessary to be aware of distance and various visual cues that your opponent sends out which telegraphs their intention. This approach will serve you well for about the next ten years. ;)

The problem is opponents who are able to mask their intention. After about 5 dan they become a blank slate or a brick wall. It is then you find that empirical analysis alone has nothing to work with. Also the pressure they exert disrupts your ability to think straight. You become distracted by one (or more) of the "four sicknesses" - fear, doubt, surprise and perplexity.

Do you have anyone of this level in your dojo? How do you find it when you observe them? How is it when you fight them? Mochida Moriji sensei said that by the end of his life his kendo was a mirror that reflected the opponent back on themselves. What a frightening thing to face!

Maybe it's the Buddhist influence on kendo, but kendo sensei are never big on contingent techniques. They tend to start by teaching the techniques that will last you till then end of your kendo career. Hence the concentration on sho-men, sutemi, zanshin. These are the aspects of kendo with the longest shelf-life. Specialising in small, fast kote cuts or kaeshi-do (both favourites of kendoka of a certain level) will work for a time, but they are no basis for a strong all-round technique.

b

[Old Warrior]

Ben:

For me, this was only Day Two in Bogu. The only one with whom I have ever had a Kendo fight was my Wife, who wanted me to go shopping with her and I went to Kendo practice instead. Aside from that, the armor still feels like lead and the helmet has my equilibrium in a state of dissarray. At this point in my Kendo career, if I moved any slower I could hit my opponent after he fell asleep waiting for me to get into range.

I did a little better today as the wings on the helmet loosened up a bit so I could, at least, raise my hands over my head. The gloves were a little less stiff so my thumbs could touch the handle and my grip felt a little more similar to that without the gloves. I still felt weighted down and very very slow. I'm told it will take a few months before I no longer notice the equipment and it will become part of me. I was thinking that if I slept in it I could halve the time, but my Wife said then I had have to give up one practice a week to take her shopping. Hey, it seemed like a good idea.

[scbang]

Very heavy thinking guys and very good input.. At this point I'd like to reset again to qualify my original question. Here's some generalization of how I do during Keiko.

Up to Ik-Kyu : I can relax and watch what they do. Thinking about what I'm going to say to them after the practice. I don't have to think ahead or guess because I have plenty of time to react even after they started to move.

Sho-dan to Ni-dan : These guys are unpredictable. I can guess what they'd do but often they surprise me. These guys attack regardless of whether I'm open or not. So I end up reacting to their move and this is a speed match. So I do not guess but there is some time to react and still get Aiuchi or avoid a point.

San-dan to Go-dan : I usually have to guess their move to get a point but funny enough I can guess their move more often than not. These are the guys move logically based on Kendo principle. They basically follow where the opening is. They are fast. If I don't guess, I don't stand much chance.

Roku-Dan and up : Only chance I have is to guess and guess right. Even then I have little chance but sometimes you get lucky especially with Kote-nuki-men because these guys like close comabt.

So, my guessing is totally thought about, pre-planned and scripted move. Anything else in my definition is reacting to the opponents move or attacking the opening you see.

Do you Kendo differently as I do? ( Generally, of course there are exceptions )

SC

[Charlie]

The problem is opponents who are able to mask their intention.

Not only mask their intention, but persuade you that their intention is something other than the intention you think it is! One of my senseis (Tagawa, 7-dan kyoshi) has this weird off-center kamae that makes me think I can shoot for his men. But I never get there.

A contradiction: you should be reacting to an opponent/you should be anticipating an opponent. They're not the same thing. But can you do both? I think the answer is yes. Sometimes you just go, sometimes you think, "Wait a sec, he's gonna do this, I'll counter with this..."

Qualifying this is that I am a nidan and have only recently begun to anticipate my opponent. Until recently, my only task was to attack, attack, attack. Now I can pick apart my opponent a little more. Scbang, is this where you're at, or are you beyond this a little? This is why scbang wanted yondan and up's opinions, I think; I'm still putting it together, too.

Certainly speed is a factor, too. I find when I am fencing less experienced persons that I am just plain faster, so no matter what they do, I can outspeed them. I usually cut my speed a bit to give them a chance to work, gradually increasing the speed and sophistiocation of the techniques. Shodans, nidans and sandans I just play - I can keep up with them and they with me. Against yondans and godans I am a yudansha again. Rokudan and up - they are so much faster than me... I recently saw video of myself and Tagawa-sensei. At one point, he literally stood and watched my men attack come down, thought about it, thought about his grocery list, remembered an album he used to listen to in college, suddenly realized he was still in jigeiko, picked off my kote, then let me go about my business. I am still absorbing the impact of these physical lessons.

Kendo for me is a lot like rock-scissors-paper. Obviously, you have to choose one based on what you think the opponent is choosing, but you don't have much time to make up your mind, so you go with just an impression and this all happens in microseconds.

It also seems a lot like boxing to me, if any of y'all have ever boxed or kickboxed. You throw that jab knowing he's going to duck it, throw that right knowing he's going to block it, and the next punch is a flat-out guess as to where that head's gonna be. If you guess right - say, a left hook to the jaw stepping back - lights out. If you guess wrong - say dropping the right for a hook to the body - lights out for you. But "right" and "wrong" changes from moment to moment.

[Neil Gendzwill]

shodan and under - opponent is essentially unimportant, just attack something. Yell and run around lots.
nidan-sandan - understand when an opening is available, or how to make one, and attack that. Make less attacks, but still be quite active.
yondan+ - manage and control your opponent so that you make openings available to you. Only attack when you have a good chance.

When your nanadan sensei hit you, he didn't guess which way you were coming, he didn't react to your attack, he isn't beating you on speed. He subtly forced you into attacking the way he wanted, then took advantage of that.

[Old Warrior]

Great Posts, I've actually looked forward to the replies.

Here's my question: As a beginner with an extensive European fencing background, should I even be trying to apply my considerable body of fencing knowledge and experience to my Kumdo?

For instance, should I be thinking about slightly positioning my blade off center to expose son mok (kote), expecting my more experienced opponent to bite so I can deflect the blade and attack mori (men)? Knowing my ability to cover ground needs years of improvement should I be focusing on techniques that require my opponent to cover the distance while I rely on timing to hit first?

In other words, my level of understanding far exceeds my skill. Should I be trying to apply my intellect to my beginners tools?

[Charlie]

Good one, Neil. He (sensei) makes it look damn easy, too.

Old Warrior, that's a good question. I'm a pretty firm believer in that the initial stage in kendo is a somewhat mindless one in which you simply concentrate on these basics over and over again without worrying about strategy. I'm also a pretty firm believer in the "empty your cup" zen anecdote. (You know that one? If not, I'll elaborate.) But your previous experience will complicate your current enterprise no matter what you do, so I think you will have a unique experience.

[JSchmidt]

"For instance, should I be thinking about slightly positioning my blade off center to expose son mok (kote)"

No, you should concentrate on keeping every straight and nice...the rest will come later.
You can't do the above without having a reasonable concept of center.

Jakob

[scbang]

Charlie,, you wrote..

Qualifying this is that I am a nidan and have only recently begun to anticipate my opponent. Until recently, my only task was to attack, attack, attack. Now I can pick apart my opponent a little more. Scbang, is this where you're at, or are you beyond this a little? This is why scbang wanted yondan and up's opinions, I think; I'm still putting it together, too.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe age plays some here. I have only recently made San-Dan so you and I are not too different but I started Kendo by guessing my opponents move from day one. It probably made sense because back them everyone was faster than me and only way I can score was to guess-prepare-execute.

Can I do both? Guess I can do that too. Some days I don't have to do anything - evrything is automatic and my kamae feels pefect. But many other days, I feel awkard and can't maintain balance and my stroke feels slow and out of form. This is when I do guessing more..

Back to my original question.. Is guessing opponent's move a bad thing for my training? Am I missing something by executing prepared move instead of waiting for opening and going for it?

I think there is a distiction here. I'm not good at kakarikeiko for that reason because I can't react that fast when someone shows me randon opening in very fast succession.
But I'm much better during tournament because I figure them out
quickly and then start guessing their next move and prepare my attack.

Let's concentrate on this point.. Could we?

SC

[Neil Gendzwill]

Old Warrior: nearly every post you write is prefaced with "I have 15 years of epee experience" or something equivalent. This says to me you're having a hard time emptying your cup as they say. My recommendation for you at this stage is to forget your fencing as much as possible, and just do kendo as your instructors ask you. Later on I think you'll be able to integrate those skills, but right now it's just confusing. We've got 2 former fencers in our club as beginners right now, and they do their best when they take this advice. I think their fighting sense and timing will serve them well later but for now they need to learn the basics.

Furthermore, kendo isn't only about getting the point. We have a couple of kumdo people in our club and they come from a very sports-oriented background, which is not uncommon in kumdo. I think your combination of fencing and being in a kumdo dojang is giving you a strong emphasis on scoring the point. This is inappropriate as a beginner - your job is to perform correct kendo, of which getting the point is only one part.

[ben]

OW - I think you cannot but help use your fencing experience in your kendo. Please persevere with mastering the basics during drills and every now and then allow yourself during free-sparring to exploit what you know about strategy. But remember this is also something new, you are a beginner all over again. I think if you constantly try to exploit your fencing knowledge at this early stage you will miss what is unique and different about kendo. As encouragement, I know a older 3-dan in kendo who previously did karate (up to 4-dan I believe). He started kendo at 50+ and, not having any cartiledge in his knees, will never be able to move quickly. But his feel for timing and distance make him quite formidable. I think you should concentrate solely on kendo/kumdo until the armour and the basics are a part of you.

SCB - As Neil and Hamish have pointed out, it is not just about reaction vs anticipation (both of which are in a sense passive) to your opponent but actually *controlling* them. Induce your opponent to strike men so you can cut degote; induce kote to strike nuki-men; pressure them backwards then follow through with men when they have paused, etc, etc. Be more aggressive and try to dominate your opponent totally rather than waiting, observing, then acting. Crush them with your spirit first, then walk in and finish them off with your cut. BTW this is what kakarigeiko teaches. If the motodachi is showing you the opening the it's not kakari but uchikomigeiko. Kakarigeiko is where you constantly have to make the opening, with your shinai, with your body, with the power of your attacking spirit.

So the short answer is yes - you are missing out on something either by just waiting-and-anticipating, or waiting-to-see the opening. In both cases your kendo is being controlled by your opponent.

b

[munenmuso]

Pardon me, maybe that is the reason why we don't have that wire at are back to tell us if we hit points because kendo never really emphasized on the scoring aspects alon. For every point we got, there is a gamut of complexity behind it,ie how it was executed, how is the form, zanshin, kiai etc.

:)

[iwatekenshi]

What most beginners don't understand about kendo is that it is an art where you only get better by analyzing your mistakes. You don't get better through winning.

[Old Warrior]

Thank you all for the sincere advice. I have made a substantial commitment to this pusuit and I take all your comments to heart. It is most unusual for people to have such a serious commitment to something other than work and family. It speaks well not only for those who have taught you all but the character each of you brings to the study.

[Charlie]

Keep at it, Old Warrior. It sounds like you have a good attitude.

I think I've commented at length on the subject at hand so I'll get out of the way and hope others jump in. It's a difficult thing to discuss because it happens on a sub conscious level and very quickly; i.e., these decisions are frequently made in seconds of fractions of seconds. At least for me!

[scbang]

This topics is all the more confusing after reading page 25 of the latest Kendo World article "Win by making them speculate". It sounds like describing "Absent Minded" triumph over "Speculators". However, if you read the article, it's not about absent minded at all. If one side make the other side to do something ( show opening etc.. ) - Isn't that side speculating too? his article does not describe "Blank Mind" at all. To me, blank mind is not plan-prepare-execute. Blank mind should be animal like instint only reacts to the opening one sees.
Is this only me seeing this contradiction in this article? Or maybe I have not understood "Absent-minded" correctly or I have misunderstood Japanese culture + history to begin with.

Gosh! Wanted a simple answer to a seemingly simple question.

Confused.. I'm really walking into my own.." Nothing is something but something else" Why did I say that?

SC