reverse uchiotoshi?

[binni]

I'm watching a video of the recent local team try-outs (for AUSKF nationals), and one of the yondan kenshi does this move: from chudan no kamae, he lowers the end of the shinai and slams it upward, making the opponent's shinai fly up, then steps in for men cut. I think it's like a reverse uchiotoshi in that you slam your opponent's shinai up from below rather than down from above. Is this technique valid? Does it have a name? Does anyone employ this in their sparring and is it effective?

[Taisaburo]

I think in Go Rin No Sho Musashi explains a techinque like that, except i think it's more like: Slaps down, up, then down again...

[Kingofmyrrh]

Just sounds like haraiage-men to me... by no means an unusual technique.

[binni]

Thanks, KoM. I just needed some accurate terms to work with so I could search it. Tried searching for uchi-age at first and got a bunch of surnames. Haraiage-men...gotcha.

[samurai999]

O_o??? Harai-age? I've heard of suri-age... Its a waza where you start at chudan, and when opponent goes kote, you do a half-crescent to your right to deflect the opponents shinai out of the way (usually very slight). What this does is breaks the opponents seme (for your kote) and you can hit their men. If this description is off, please by all means chime in.

Tim

[binni]

O_o??? Harai-age?

If you search for harai, you'll get all kinds of threads about both harai and suri waza.

So many different terms... :confused2 My head is one big swirling mess of uchi-achi-age-otoshi-debana-ouji-shikake-harai-suri-hiki-maai-kamae-itto-nuki-kaeshi, etc...

[samurai999]

I know what harai is, but there is a difference between suri-age and harai waza. I've just never heard the term harai-age before. (though I can guess what it can mean). And I STILL can't get it right in practice.. dammit...

Tim

[Kingofmyrrh]

well, 'harai' means sweep, and you can add 'ageru' (or to make it a noun, 'age') onto the end to indicate an upwards motion. Same for 'otoshi', except this time it's a downwards motion. For example, suriage and suriotoshi (sliding up and sliding down). Binni didn't mention the opponent unleashing any kind of technique, so it's unlikely to be suriage (which is a counter-technique. I've heard people use the term suriage for what I'd call haraiage outside of Japan, but have never ever heard or read this in Japan, which makes me suspect that it's a misuse of the term, although I can't be certain). There are plenty of other examples in kendo, such as makiotoshi and makiage (although I've only ever met one person who uses the latter).
Despite the proliferation of such words, I advise against trying to make your own, or even presume to understand what it might mean without asking somebody who definitely knows, as it's very easy to come up with either non-existent words, or misused words. The latter includes suriage for haraiage (probably), and people saying kiriotoshi when they mean uchiotoshi. In theory they could mean the same thing, but in practice they don't. Uchiotoshi is a kendo technique in which you knock down the opponent's shinai, kiriotoshi is an itto ryu technique which, if you don't know it, is kind of a bit like reverse suriage.

[samurai999]

I've heard people use the term suriage for what I'd call haraiage outside of Japan, but have never ever heard or read this in Japan, which makes me suspect that it's a misuse of the term, although I can't be certain).

meh... I have never heard harai-age being used in the US where I go to practice. its always Harai-men or kote suriage-men that is said during practice where harai is used to break kamae and suriage is used to break seme of the kote... I have heard of suriotoshi, but only in kata #10.. Maybe matusda sensei (amatsuda) from SJ dojo or maybe one of the Marsten Senseis from PNKF can shed some light on this subject.

Tim

[kendokamax]

and people saying kiriotoshi when they mean uchiotoshi. In theory they could mean the same thing, but in practice they don't. Uchiotoshi is a kendo technique in which you knock down the opponent's shinai, kiriotoshi is an itto ryu technique which, if you don't know it, is kind of a bit like reverse suriage.

isnt kiriotoshi and uchitoshi the same thing?

I thought it would be like uchikaeshi and kirikaeshi:
I heard the term kirikaeshi is not used when practicing with younger children in Japan because of the "kiri" means cutting and it sounds too harsh for young kids.

For me I felt that uchitoshi might be used more by younger kendoka that are more related to waza for making points, where older kendoka would use the term kiriotoshi because the kendo they do is more about the feeling of cuting their opponents.

Oh that makes me remember something funny.

once in kendo class at budai the teacher showed a tenugui and asked all the students how it was called ? there was a strange silence...and then one of my japanese friend TAMURA (who is a famous kendoka of his generation) dared to anwser : <men　taoru?> (men towel) he said....

me and my other foreigner friends where soooo- surprised that they couldnt answer that question. I'm sure they know what is a tenugui but it seemed they always used the term <men towel>. or maybe they made a joke.....I dont know, but they all looked really surprised when the teacher said it was called tenugui....

[Djaxup]

I learned that the difference between suriage and harai is the timing and the motion. I use harai to break my opponents center, follow up immediately with a men or kote strike.
Suriage is when you swing up your sword a little circular just as the opponents shinai is coming down for the hit, knock it out of the way slightly and, as you have now nicely set up your swing, just hit men/kote. It requires some speed though, and a short fumikome.

As far as i understand it, harai is when i take initiative and suriage is a counter technique. Very hard to pull off for me :(

What seems to be generally referred to as "uchiotoshi" we call harii (something like that), the slam on top of the opponents shinai to break his center. I know the term kiriotoshi only from iaido lessons, its the powerful severing strike that ends most "confrontations" or to finish off the opponent(s).

[Kingofmyrrh]

the fact is that all these technique names are just very ordinary Japanese words, so it's not a matter of what they mean, but how they are used conventionally. Yes, kiriotoshi COULD mean the same as uchiotoshi, but in actual usage that's not the case. For example, if you search the forums at ichinikai (which are enormous compared to these ones) for uchiotoshi, you'll get results about techniques where you knock down the opponent's attack before quickly delivering your own (as featured in bokuto ni yoru...). If you search for kiriotoshi, you only get results for a technique where you cut down through your opponent's men attack, derived from itto ryu.
Haraiage would indeed normally just be called harai, but I wanted to be specific as you can use harai in a number of directions, and Binni mentioned that the opponent's shinai was knocked up. Here's a post by Hide. that has both haraiage and haraiotoshi mentioned as types of harai waza (as well as others, including makiage and makiotoshi):
http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs4/402009032041864.html
menkiriotoshimen:
http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs4/583038330078125.html

It doesn't really matter what the words COULD mean if you looked them up in a dictionary, it matters what they mean in the context of kendo.

[Kingofmyrrh]

meh... I have never heard harai-age being used in the US where I go to practice. its always Harai-men or kote suriage-men that is said during practice where harai is used to break kamae and suriage is used to break seme of the kote...
Tim

I don't know what you mean by 'seme of the kote'. If they've initiated an attack, it's suriage. If they haven't, then it's harai. If you're performing it from ura and are not an octopus, then it's almost certain you'll sweep the shinai upwards - strictly speaking this is haraiage.

[D'Artagnan]

...I have never heard harai-age being used in the US where I go to practice. its always Harai-men...

In my experience, in Britain, harai-men is usually used as an abbreviation of haraiage-men (as per kingofmyrrh's posts), and Otoshi-men is usually said as an abbreviation of haraiotoshi-men.

the difference in my understanding between harai-age/otoshi waza, and suriage/uchiotoshi waza is that the latter are Ouji-waza (defensive techniques, executed when the opponent attacks), whereas the previous are techniques used to create suki (i.e. opportunities for a strike, in this case breaking the opponent's 'chushin' or centre).


at least that's what I currently understand...

[samurai999]

I don't know what you mean by 'seme of the kote'. If they've initiated an attack, it's suriage. If they haven't, then it's harai. If you're performing it from ura and are not an octopus, then it's almost certain you'll sweep the shinai upwards - strictly speaking this is haraiage.

Well there is a technique where if they seme kote (ie initiate attack by going after your kote) you can "uchiotoshi" the kote and hit men. Its not an "ageru" move by all means.

Tim

[samurai999]

In my experience, in Britain, harai-men is usually used as an abbreviation of haraiage-men (as per kingofmyrrh's posts), and Otoshi-men is usually said as an abbreviation of haraiotoshi-men.

at least that's what I currently understand...

Oh ic. Maybe thats it. *shrug* But, we never were taught to "raise our shinai" during harai.

Tim

[Neil Gendzwill]

Oh ic. Maybe thats it. *shrug* But, we never were taught to "raise our shinai" during harai.
There's two basic kinds of harai-waza, down or up. Down, it's a lot like kote-men (or any other kote-X combo) except instead of kote you brush the shinai aside with a downward motion. Usually this is two steps - one for the harai, and the second for the follow-up attack. Up, you brush the shinai aside as part of the upward motion of the attack. This is usually one step as the harai action and raising the shinai in preparation for the attack are the same motion. Both of these fall under the general category of shikake-waza.

[Djaxup]

Isnt that called Hari then? Or am i confusing something here? I thought that harai was knocking away the sword while lifting the sword, while hari is a downward motion, more like a strike in itself (like you described). But thats nitpicking i suppose.

[Curtis]

In the Bokuto Ni Yoru Kendo Kihon-waza Keiko-ho training #3 is a harai-men. The opponent's bokuto is swept aside with a diagonal upward motion to the front (mae) side of the bokuto.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Isnt that called Hari then?
No, up or down is both harai in the cases I described.

[samurai999]

Isnt that called Hari then? Or am i confusing something here? I thought that harai was knocking away the sword while lifting the sword.

SEE! I was told that the move that you described was suriage! Like kote-suriage-men.

Tim

[Neil Gendzwill]

If it's oji-waza, like deflecting an incoming kote, then we say suriagi. But if it's shikake-waza (you're just moving the shinai aside to get to men without the opponent doing anything) then we say harai. I've never heard harai-age used, but that term makes sense to me. Also technically suriage is more of a sliding motion while harai is generally more percussive. Kata #2 and #6 are both suriage.

[samurai999]

In the Bokuto Ni Yoru Kendo Kihon-waza Keiko-ho training #3 is a harai-men. The opponent's bokuto is swept aside with a diagonal upward motion to the front (mae) side of the bokuto.

hmm.. ok. I just heard the term harai-age.. and it confused me for a bit..

Tim

[samurai999]

If it's oji-waza, like deflecting an incoming kote, then we say suriagi. But if it's shikake-waza (you're just moving the shinai aside to get to men without the opponent doing anything) then we say harai. I've never heard harai-age used, but that term makes sense to me.

Oh ok. Thats what i thought too... I never heard that term used either...

Tim

[Neil Gendzwill]

Punted because Tim and I were simul-posting.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Well there is a technique where if they seme kote (ie initiate attack by going after your kote) you can "uchiotoshi" the kote and hit men. Its not an "ageru" move by all means.

Tim

Do you mean kote uchiotoshi men (aka aigotemen)? In this case, you're surely referring to a situation where the opponent doesn't just 'seme' at your kote, but actually performs an attack... I certainly agree that this isn't a 'raising' movement - it's a standard uchiotoshi technique, as I described (or indeed JMarsten does in the topic 'uchiotoshi' a few threads down).
I get the feeling we're saying the same thing but letting language get in the way... I'll try and be a little clearer.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Isnt that called Hari then? Or am i confusing something here? I thought that harai was knocking away the sword while lifting the sword, while hari is a downward motion, more like a strike in itself (like you described). But thats nitpicking i suppose.

I'm certain that harai refers to a motion where you 'sweep' aside the opponent's shinai. I've heard the term 'hari' banded about as well - this seems to refer to when you 'pat' the opponent's shinai from the side, although I can't really be certain as it's not something I do/research into very much.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm certain that harai refers to a motion where you 'sweep' aside the opponent's shinai. I've heard the term 'hari' banded about as well - this seems to refer to when you 'pat' the opponent's shinai from the side, although I can't really be certain as it's not something I do/research into very much.
I'm pretty sure that hari is just a corruption of harai. Hitting the shinai directly sideways is another variation of harai, as far as I know although I'm sure there's some specific name for it. People hit it straight sideways, at an angle, with a circular motion, up or down - it's all harai AFAIK. If you hit straight down on top then it becomes uchiotoshi.

[Kingofmyrrh]

In my experience, in Britain, harai-men is usually used as an abbreviation of haraiage-men (as per kingofmyrrh's posts), and Otoshi-men is usually said as an abbreviation of haraiotoshi-men.

Everyone seems to have their own variations - I just use harai for both, and only add 'age' 'otoshi' 'omote' 'ura' for clarification purposes when needed, such as this post (although conversely I seemed to have ended up creating confusion). I quite like D'artagnan's abbreviations, although I think personally I'd make haraiotoshi into 'harai-men' as it seems to be the one that most people think of as the standard harai-waza (this is the one that Neil refers to as 'like kote-men'). Anyway, that's just personal choice, which is fine.


the difference in my understanding between harai-age/otoshi waza, and suriage/uchiotoshi waza is that the latter are Ouji-waza (defensive techniques, executed when the opponent attacks), whereas the previous are techniques used to create suki (i.e. opportunities for a strike, in this case breaking the opponent's 'chushin' or centre).

I agree entirely with this. As I said, personal choice for abbreviations is OK if the people you're speaking to understand them, but I've heard people call 'haraiage-men' 'suriage-men' (probably because they are both upwards movements) when they are most definitely different things. Anyway, sticking to D'artagnan's classification should keep you safe.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I'm pretty sure that hari is just a corruption of harai. Hitting the shinai directly sideways is another variation of harai, as far as I know although I'm sure there's some specific name for it. People hit it straight sideways, at an angle, with a circular motion, up or down - it's all harai AFAIK. If you hit straight down on top then it becomes uchiotoshi.

While I'll freely admit that I don't exactly know what hari is, I do know that it isn't a corruption. It's written with the same kanji as the 'bari' of 'dobari shinai'. In fact, you can see it by clicking on the link I inserted above to a forum posting where both haraiage and haraiotoshi are mentioned.

[Neil Gendzwill]

While I'll freely admit that I don't exactly know what hari is, I do know that it isn't a corruption. It's written with the same kanji as the 'bari' of 'dobari shinai'. In fact, you can see it by clicking on the link I inserted above to a forum posting where both haraiage and haraiotoshi are mentioned.
Interesting. I'd like to see that post but I don't see any link.

[Kingofmyrrh]

If it's oji-waza, like deflecting an incoming kote, then we say suriagi. But if it's shikake-waza (you're just moving the shinai aside to get to men without the opponent doing anything) then we say harai. I've never heard harai-age used, but that term makes sense to me. Also technically suriage is more of a sliding motion while harai is generally more percussive. Kata #2 and #6 are both suriage.

I like this description of the differences as well... but do you mean #2 and #6? Or #5 and #6? Sorry, I'm not trying to be facetious, it's just that I'm starting to get little confused myself now...

sorry, link was a while ago

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/...9032041864.html

on the list, it's the 7th one down. For reference, the others are:

tsuke
sawari
oshi
osae
noru
tataku
haru (this is the same as hari, just a verb not noun)
harau (haraiageand haraiotoshi)
uchiotosu
maku
makiosaeru
surikomu (think, not certain)
makiotosu
makiageru
hazusu

they're all different types of shikake waza, BTW.

[Kingofmyrrh]

they're all different types of shikake waza, BTW.
Well, more specifically, they're all methods of getting the opponent' shinai out of the way. Don't want to create further confusion...

[Neil Gendzwill]

I like this description of the differences as well... but do you mean #2 and #6? Or #5 and #6? Sorry, I'm not trying to be facetious, it's just that I'm starting to get little confused myself now...
Sorry, #5 and #6 - #2 is nuki-waza.

PS that link is dead now, but that's still an interesting list. I know some of them, but many of those terms are new to me.

[samurai999]

Do you mean kote uchiotoshi men (aka aigotemen)? In this case, you're surely referring to a situation where the opponent doesn't just 'seme' at your kote, but actually performs an attack... I certainly agree that this isn't a 'raising' movement - it's a standard uchiotoshi technique, as I described (or indeed JMarsten does in the topic 'uchiotoshi' a few threads down).
I get the feeling we're saying the same thing but letting language get in the way... I'll try and be a little clearer.

Hmm i think so too (in terms of language).

As for the former, i don't think aigotemen is the same as uchiotoshi. Aigotemen, i thought, meant that you and your opponent go for kote at the same time (thus "cancelling" the strikes) and as opposed to your opponent going just kote, you go men as well right after. kote-Uchiotoshi means to literally "hit down" the opponents shinai as he/she goes for kote and then going for men, right? I thought there was a difference. But this is a separate discussion... As for seme to the kote, that sorta encompasses an attack, doesn't it?

Tim

[DCPan]

I'm pretty sure that hari is just a corruption of harai.

Hmm...I see it listed as one of the waza in Sata Nariaki sensei's book "The cornerstone of attacking (my translation)".

It is grouped under harai.

Under harai, it has bari/hari, hajiku, and a couple of more.

Bari/hari is the same kanji as the one used in the word "do-bari" shinai, which means "extended".

I think bari/hari is used to describe horizontal harai, where as harai-age and harai-otoshi are used to describe up and down harai movement.

The difference between bari and hajiku is harder to explain.

Hajiku means to "bounce". Imagine those hanging ball contraptions where one ball comes down and stay, the other ball on the other end goes up?

In hajiku, the idea is that your shinai comes to the centerline, and the opponent's shinai gets bounced out of center...like the hanging ball contraption.

So, it's all harai....just with different feel.

FWIW.

[kuzu70]

I'm watching a video of the recent local team try-outs (for AUSKF nationals), and one of the yondan kenshi does this move: from chudan no kamae, he lowers the end of the shinai and slams it upward, making the opponent's shinai fly up, then steps in for men cut.

Do you remember which kenshi it was?

[Kingofmyrrh]

Hmm i think so too (in terms of language).

As for the former, i don't think aigotemen is the same as uchiotoshi. Aigotemen, i thought, meant that you and your opponent go for kote at the same time (thus "cancelling" the strikes) and as opposed to your opponent going just kote, you go men as well right after. kote-Uchiotoshi means to literally "hit down" the opponents shinai as he/she goes for kote and then going for men, right? I thought there was a difference. But this is a separate discussion... As for seme to the kote, that sorta encompasses an attack, doesn't it?

Tim

Most technical books classify aigotemen and koteuchiotoshimen as the same thing, as far as I've read (for example, Ogawa Haruki's two part series published by kendo nihon). There are also posts to the same effect on ichinikai, although I don't seem to have much luck in linking to them today.

I have to say that I disagree with you - seme to kote does not mean an actual attack to kote, it just means to 'threaten' the opponent's kote. I understand that the literal meaning of 'semeru' is to attack, but within a kendo context, it describes pressurizing a target, not actually attacking it. For example, one of my favourite waza instruction collections is kendo nihon's '18 men techniques' in which they interview various policemen/8th dan etc and ask them to run down three or so of their favourite men techniques. Phrases such as 'seme to kote, and when the opponent flinches, cut straight to men' are commonplace, and looking at the accompanying photos it's clear that there is no actual attack to kote. Seme to a certain target may well be followed by an attack to that target, but 'seme to the kote, that sorta encompasses an attack, doesn't it?' - well, I'd have to say that the answer to that is no.

[Kendoka]

I'm watching a video of the recent local team try-outs (for AUSKF nationals), and one of the yondan kenshi does this move: from chudan no kamae, he lowers the end of the shinai and slams it upward, making the opponent's shinai fly up, then steps in for men cut. I think it's like a reverse uchiotoshi in that you slam your opponent's shinai up from below rather than down from above. Is this technique valid? Does it have a name? Does anyone employ this in their sparring and is it effective?

As spotted by others above, that waza sounds like a harai-men.
Harai is slightly different from your left (to hit kote) or your right (to hit men) and both differ from suriage.

Harai-men is a sweep of the opponents shinai to their right, creating an opening to attack their men.

Harai-kote is the opposite, but more of a sweep up and to their left side, then attack kote.