Kensen at my tsuki when I do men cut

[Pokie]

Hi guys, can anyone out there help me with this one ? It keeps happening to me, and sometimes the kensen miss the tsuki and jabs my neck damn. Sometimes when I do a men cut, some people leave their kensen right at my tsuki so when I get close enough and half way through my men cut I run right into it. It really sux, and kinda happens a lot, how do I go around this one ?

[JoonShik]

when they go for ur tsuki (during a spar) just push ther shinai or step bak. and when u do a men cut and ther shinai gets u in the tsuki means that they got the center controlled. u hav to do somthin that will make them lose the center line.

[kendokamax]

Hi guys, can anyone out there help me with this one ? It keeps happening to me, and sometimes the kensen miss the tsuki and jabs my neck damn. Sometimes when I do a men cut, some people leave their kensen right at my tsuki so when I get close enough and half way through my men cut I run right into it. It really sux, and kinda happens a lot, how do I go around this one ?

normaly like JoonShik it's because they control center well and there was not really any opportunity.....

hey but pokie! sometimes there is some people that keep on doing that just because they are soooo lazy ! I hate it too! I guess the best thing to do is not being scared of the kensen and go for it anyway!

[Andoru]

Pokie: been doing jigeiko with Fukuda sensei lately hmm? :D

[Yo...osh!]

I get impaled against high grade sensei a lot too because of their strong kamae. Sometimes I try harai waza or nidan waza....

As for Fukuda sensei, he attempted 6 tsuki in a row on me! Then he went into Jo-dan. :confused2

[Itto_Okami]

A question...

While doing Ji-Geiko, one try men but there isn´t suki (chance of strinking). Should the motodachi open his kamae and let enter the men or should keep the center although "impaling" the uchidachi?

Thanks

[kanyil]

A question...

While doing Ji-Geiko, one try men but there isn´t suki (chance of strinking). Should the motodachi open his kamae and let enter the men or should keep the center although "impaling" the uchidachi?

Thanks

I would be interested to hear people's opinion on this topic as well.

IMHO, the issue of whether to impale or not depends on the level of your aite.

I always open up when fencing kohais, because they are far too early in their kendo training, and a mukae tsuki may easily cause them to worry to much about your kensen and not pay enough attention to developing their own skills and form. It took me almost 6 months of deliberately jumping into tsukis to somewhat overcome my fear of the kensen, ingrained into me during my kyu days when the sensei impaled me with a mukae tsuki, and put me out of action for an entire month (fractured ribcage? not sure).

It's okay to impale when fencing peers and younger sempais. Older sempais I try not to tsuki. It's a non-issue when fencing sensei, because they usually wipe the floor with me anyways. :D

[JSchmidt]

It really sux, and kinda happens a lot, how do I go around this one ?
It's because you are not controlling the center when you attack. If it against a senior, he either wants you to wait for better opportunity or make a bigger effort to control the center, both prior and during the attack.
If the shinai is going underneath the tsuki-dare, then you are probably lifting your head as you are cutting. Keep your head straight.

Jakob

[tantadi]

I think you need to have some understanding of kamae if you are going to do jigeiko. Otherwise it is just wacking people in the head, hoping for a lucky shot. So I think impaling is good, but also deliberate openings, so that the difference becomes clear.

[Andoru]

I second what Kanyi said. Doing mugae-zuki against beginners is a big no-no in my books. I only do it against my peers or seniors if there is no attempt to control center either physically or psychologically.

I just want to add what my sensei said to us many times: if one has enough time to do mugae-zuki, one has enough time to counter.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I second what Kanyi said. Doing mugae-zuki against beginners is a big no-no in my books.
Define "beginner". I was just using it against one of our new shodans (yes, still "beginner" the way I define things) to make a point about her charging in heedlessly. It's just another teaching tool: for yourself, too - it's a great drill for learning to keep centre.

[Andoru]

I understand what you mean. For me, beginner in this context is taken to mean people relatively fresh in bogu. If the seniors and sensei want to do mugae-zuki against them to teach them about center, then by all means. As for me, I don't think I'm qualified to do that.

[kuzu70]

I also get mukae-tsukied a lot. When that happens I usually keep my head down and go at it more. Even with the opponent's kensen at my tsuki, I would go for a second and third men, until I break the opponent's kensen. Of course this is during keiko. Shiai is a different story.

[JSchmidt]

I just want to add what my sensei said to us many times: if one has enough time to do mugae-zuki, one has enough time to counter.

I disagree somewhat with that. At your most basic, you have your kamae. It's when you break that, that you get hit...and that's where I always start when I do ji-geiko: First make sure I got as good a kamae as possible. After that, you can start worrying about the rest.

Jakob

[Sepiraph]

Think about it, if you recklessly charge into someone's sword in a real fight, what would happen? Now apply this to Kendo, why should they move their shiani out of their way to let you attact them? There are various ways to position yourself or knock their shinai so that you wouldn't run into their sword when attempting men cut.

[yakesumi]

This is about the clip in Joonshik's post.
To show your opponent that they dont have proper riai, to jam your opponent in a match is totally reasonable, but that clip really bothers me. The person from the right corner thrust from a lower position after he missed the kote and pushed up with, well, a lot of force.
Isnt it a hansoku if you use mukae-zuki with excess force and endangering your opponent?

[kanyil]

Define "beginner". I was just using it against one of our new shodans (yes, still "beginner" the way I define things) to make a point about her charging in heedlessly. It's just another teaching tool: for yourself, too - it's a great drill for learning to keep centre.

Point taken Neil-sensei.

I should clarify that, while I am myself also a beginner, what I meant by "beginner" in my original post referred to people newly in bogu, or people who are not yet comfortable in bogu, or are still quite timid/shy about attacking (i.e. newer mudanshas). I just don't want to encourage their passivity any further by giving them another thing to worry about, until later that is. :devious:

[Pokie]

thanks guys..ok, i have this one..what if on the point of attack..the opponent does not have center, but as ur shinai lifts up to do men cut, he/she readjust so it's pointing at your tsuki roughly..sometimes i believe that's what happens when tsuki misses and jams the neck..i mean..slips at the side of the tsuki, not from underneath, that totally sux. Oh hey Andoru I haven't yet sparred with Fukuda sensei, he came to visit 2 mondays ago, but i had to catch train or else il be home at 12pm drats.

Man, something I can imagine from Fukuda sensei, he tsukis me, i slip and fall on my butt to the ground, he gets his shinai and tries to choke me with it (in friendly not hurtful way ofcourse) grabs my kote and throws in on the wall fan.

[Andoru]

Pokie: you should have seen what he did to Yvonne!

[Kaoru]

Hi Minna-san,

What exactly is Mukae-tsuki? From what I have gathered by reading this thread, it is when sempai/sensei stands still holding kamae with the kensen at your throat even if one moves to attack.

If that is right, then I have a question. Maybe it is a silly one, but anyway...

Can a person step to the side and then move in to cut men or kote if the opponent holds chudan like that? I keep trying to imagine what mukae-tsuki looks like. Is that possible? Or, is that wrong, a bad idea, etc.

Thank you!

Kaoru

[DCPan]

Think about it, if you recklessly charge into someone's sword in a real fight, what would happen? Now apply this to Kendo, why should they move their shiani out of their way to let you attact them?

Because of the importance of being straight.

IMHO, if they are not at a rank where they are allowed tsuki people, they shouldn't be tsukied at either...including mukae-tsuki.

[kanyil]

Can a person step to the side and then move in to cut men or kote if the opponent holds chudan like that? I keep trying to imagine what mukae-tsuki looks like. Is that possible? Or, is that wrong, a bad idea, etc.


Hi Kaoru,

From my limited experience, the problem with the above is that the aite will likely be much quicker than you. Because you will need to make 2 movements with your body to do the above (i.e. step to the side, then move in to cut men), whereas he/she will only need to slightly adjust his/her kamae by a few degrees to regain centerline, and then BAM, you are right back at the starting point.

Against lesser kenshis like myself a potentially viable alternative would be to do the above, but cut kote instead of men right when the aite turns to regain the centerline (the side-step to the omote side together with the step to the ura-side involved in a kote cut, makes it easy for the aite to miscalculate the movements needed in adjusting their own kamae, thus opening their own kote.). If they don't turn to face you then your original strategy would work.

Just my 2 cents, I'm sure the others will have much more valuable contributions shortly. :D

[Sepiraph]

Because of the importance of being straight.

IMHO, if they are not at a rank where they are allowed tsuki people, they shouldn't be tsukied at either...including mukae-tsuki.

The point is that the guy is literally running himself into the other's sword. I don't see the reason why his opponent should purposely move the sword out of the way to let him attack when there is no opening. Unless of course they were his sempai/sensei and want to let him learn to attack, and even again I think that it is a bad habit.

[kuzu70]

If mukae-tsuki is done properly and not maliciously, it is not dangerous. I have practiced with sensei who wanted me to strike while they were doing mukae-tsuki, so that I may develp sutemi and not be afraid of his kensen.

[mad_god]

From my limited experience, the problem with the above is that the aite will likely be much quicker than you. Because you will need to make 2 movements with your body to do the above (i.e. step to the side, then move in to cut men), whereas he/she will only need to slightly adjust his/her kamae by a few degrees to regain centerline, and then BAM, you are right back at the starting point.

Against lesser kenshis like myself a potentially viable alternative would be to do the above, but cut kote instead of men right when the aite turns to regain the centerline (the side-step to the omote side together with the step to the ura-side involved in a kote cut, makes it easy for the aite to miscalculate the movements needed in adjusting their own kamae, thus opening their own kote.). If they don't turn to face you then your original strategy would work.


A well used alternative in these cases is using a harai waza, taking out the oppenent shinai from your center line first, and then hitting the opened area.
Of course, should be fast enough to hit before oppent bring back to the kamae again...

MG

[mad_god]

This is about the clip in Joonshik's post.
To show your opponent that they dont have proper riai, to jam your opponent in a match is totally reasonable, but that clip really bothers me. The person from the right corner thrust from a lower position after he missed the kote and pushed up with, well, a lot of force.
Isnt it a hansoku if you use mukae-zuki with excess force and endangering your opponent?

Depends.
If the mukae tsuki was a reflex of your action in that moment, even if it endangered the opponent may not be hansoku.
Sometimes people just flow to the opponent Men, and just standing to the kamae or making a strong taiatari the opponent go down to the floor.
However if you were "waiting" the opponent come to the Men and intentionally made the mukae tsuki to endanger him, yes, it will be hansoku.

Without a movie is difficult to explain.

MG

[mad_god]

Sometimes people just flow to the opponent Men, and just standing to the kamae or making a strong taiatari the opponent go down to the floor.
MG

What I meant was the people that hit the Men without enough posture and easily falls down due to opponent's (strong) kamae or taiatari.

MG

[mad_god]

Sometimes people just flow to the opponent Men, and just standing to the kamae or making a strong taiatari the opponent go down to the floor.
MG

What I want to say is, people that goes to Men without good and strong posture, and easily falls down due to opponent's strong kamae/taiatari.

MG

[mad_god]

I disagree somewhat with that. At your most basic, you have your kamae. It's when you break that, that you get hit...and that's where I always start when I do ji-geiko: First make sure I got as good a kamae as possible. After that, you can start worrying about the rest.

Jakob

Mukae-tsuki is not easy to do without proper kamae/posture.
I think his sensei has already in mind that the student is doing the correct kamae.
Taking this into consideration, I agree with his sensei that during keiko, "for better improve" his kendo, is better apply counters instead just stop opponent's attack in the tsuki.

MG

[Pokie]

thanks a lot mad god, that is really pleasing to know that it could possibly be hansouku..i totally don't like it when I hit men and then get choked by opponent's kensen who miss my tsuki, opponent didn't have centre in the first place but still continued kensen at my throat knowing it is off centre and could miss.

[JSchmidt]

Mukae-tsuki is not easy to do without proper kamae/posture.
I think his sensei has already in mind that the student is doing the correct kamae.
Taking this into consideration, I agree with his sensei that during keiko, "for better improve" his kendo, is better apply counters instead just stop opponent's attack in the tsuki.

MG

Huh?..what relevance does that have to my post?

Jakob

[mad_god]

Huh?..what relevance does that have to my post?

Jakob

Hmmm...
So, what relevance has "your" post to the previous post?

MG.

[mad_god]

thanks a lot mad god, that is really pleasing to know that it could possibly be hansouku..i totally don't like it when I hit men and then get choked by opponent's kensen who miss my tsuki, opponent didn't have centre in the first place but still continued kensen at my throat knowing it is off centre and could miss.

Please note that it will depend on the level of "bad" intention to "endanger" the opponent when someone is doing the mukae-tsuki. And it will depend on the judge's concept.
Normally is used just to "cancel" the other's ippon (if the kensen is touching you usually is not considered ippon), and don't bring high risk to the opponent, so many people use it frequently in shiai.

MG.