Why alway chudan??

[Zaphiel]

I just wonderd...why isn't anyone using other kamaes than chudan in battle...it would perhaps be a shock for the other kendoka if you would just start to use ....ähh..lets say yo no kamae( = waki )...this would catch many kendokas by suprise wouldn't it...and this might help to score a point.....

to you're infomation: I haven't jet have a battle in a championc.....

[NorthernKendoka]

The idea of waki is to hide your sword so that your opponent won't know how long it is and have problems finding the correct ma-ai. You lure him in so you can strike when he thinks he is at a safe distance. Shinai are subjects to standards of lenght so the whole point of hiding your sword dissapperes. People do use other kamae for example jodan sometimes and in some rare occations gedan.

[nodachi]

Chudan is a nice balanced position to be in. Comfortable for both attack and defense. Jodan becomes very aggressive and creates lots of opennings, unless you have the experience with it to keep you opponent at bay.

The idea for most people is to use chudan until they master the basics, which takes a long time, and then if they feel like it later they move on to other kamae. Of course, lots of people who get good like to stick with chudan anyway and that is why you see it most of the time.

[Berugijin]

There's a thread somewhere here about a kendoka who assumed wakigamae, his opponent just did a quick shomen. He stopped doing wakigamae.

[Commander]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of Jodan?

[jackchen]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of Jodan?

Quick cut. As you only need to do one movement. Compared to chudan where you need 2 movement, bring up, cut down.

Disadvantages is you're opened up for attacks.

[hamish]

There's a thread somewhere here about a kendoka who assumed wakigamae, his opponent just did a quick shomen. He stopped doing wakigamae.

You're just asking for a tsuki, too!

[Commander]

You're just asking for a tsuki, too!

oohh, stick to chudan then eek lol

[jackchen]

I was just thinking.

In wakigamae, the sword is held in line with the opponent's line of sight so that he can't see the sword's length.

how about holding the sword in jodan the way?

Just a wild thought here.

[JoonShik]

I did a random geiko wit my father, who was taught all the positions. and he did a waki on me. I didnt know what to do. He told me, "if you attack, theres the high risk of getting hit before you know it." To tell you the difference in our skill, my father is a shodan (since 1974-75, never ranked cuz that man got his rank in korea and when he came to the states, he didnt know when all the events were), and I am a 6kyu (started about 10-11 months ago).

[Berugijin]

I did a random geiko wit my father, who was taught all the positions. and he did a waki on me. I didnt know what to do. He told me, "if you attack, theres the high risk of getting hit before you know it." To tell you the difference in our skill, my father is a shodan (since 1974-75, never ranked cuz that man got his rank in korea and when he came to the states, he didnt know when all the events were), and I am a 6kyu (started about 10-11 months ago).

Well there's always the risk of getting hit before you know it, it's called "debana". I think you'd pretty much need superhuman speed to do the following:


Go from wakigamae into jodan (quite some distance for the shinai to travel), assuming it's like yohonme.
Shomen-uchi (fast from jodan)
And he has to do those two in the time that you have to raise your shinai a bit, and let it drop on his men.

I think he was just trying to scare you. Think about it, he has to move his shinai in an arc of pi rad, you just gotta do a nice small quick menuchi... It also depends on your maai ofcourse, assuming you are in toma or issoku ito no maai you are definately in the advantage against wakigamae.

[KenShi_JoB]

Well there's always the risk of getting hit before you know it, it's called "debana". I think you'd pretty much need superhuman speed to do the following:

Go from wakigamae into jodan (quite some distance for the shinai to travel), assuming it's like yohonme.
Shomen-uchi (fast from jodan)
And he has to do those two in the time that you have to raise your shinai a bit, and let it drop on his men.

I think he was just trying to scare you. Think about it, he has to move his shinai in an arc of pi rad, you just gotta do a nice small quick menuchi... It also depends on your maai ofcourse, assuming you are in toma or issoku ito no maai you are definately in the advantage against wakigamae.

As far as I know, normally a kenshi (in the old time) that assume wakigamae will strike upward diagonal right from the wakigamae position. No need to go to Jodan. Hasso no kamae and wakigamae ussually cut in diagonal.

[Kanoken]

I think from wakigamae, it's possible to go for a quick do, not men, don't you think?

[KenShi_JoB]

I think from wakigamae, it's possible to go for a quick do, not men, don't you think?

yes, it's possible. IMHO

[Light Samurai]

I think from wakigamae, it's possible to go for a quick do, not men, don't you think?
While it's not orthodox technique (That i know.) You could strike men. Although, I do not take kendo, and I shouldn;t be talking, but I'd try waki no kamae, at least once.

[ISSAC RU]

You can't go waki in a kendo match .

[nodachi]

Did someone tell you you can't go waki in kendo???

Because it obviously doesn't offer any benefit... it is only beneficial if the opponent doesn't know the length of your sword, which is not the case in kendo... I am sure that people would recommend that you not do waki, but if someone wants to do something foolish like that, can they? It's not smart, but I have never heard of anyone saying you can't, even though they probably shouldn't.

[Hyaku]

I just wonderd...why isn't anyone using other kamaes than chudan in battle...it would perhaps be a shock for the other kendoka if you would just start to use ....ähh..lets say yo no kamae( = waki )...this would catch many kendokas by suprise wouldn't it...and this might help to score a point.....

to you're infomation: I haven't jet have a battle in a championc.....

Because most of us try to do chudan most of lives and never really get good at it to a very high degree.

Trickery is part of a Kendoka's ideals. Its meeting each other on a an equal footing and finding out who is the stronger. If you cant beat them at chudan? Learn real chudan.

[jmarsten]

never mind waki how many have won a match using only kizeme?

[pei]

Just a silly question...why do we start with chudan? Is it because it is easy? Why do we need to master it first before trying other kamae? o_O is it the *best* kamae generally?

[jackchen]

Just a silly question...why do we start with chudan? Is it because it is easy? Why do we need to master it first before trying other kamae? o_O is it the *best* kamae generally?

I don't know about easy or hard, but for the "best" kamae, it's basically up to you I guess.

[nodachi]

I think we start with chudan because it is balanced. Any deviation from it creates opennings that your opponent can exploit if you don't know what they are and how to keep safe. Chudan may not be as aggressive, but if you can maintain a reasonable chudan no kamae, you have a basic posture that is fairly safe, compared to the other kamae.

Also, a lot of kendo is about learning to see and create opennings in your opponent. If we all started with the crazy cool stances, a lot of that process would be a bit muddled. Opennings already exist in other stances and so part of that lesson is lost. I don't think this is why it's only chudan, but it does effect the learning process.

[Phil-co]

When I'm in shiai, and I notice that my opponent is about the same grade as I, or lower, I usually try gedan at some point. Most of the times, the opponent gets startled, and don't know what to do, because s/he hasn't been practicing against other kamae than chudan. Then they usually go for men, because it seems exposed, and then I use suriage or kaeshi. However, if I'm up against a faster opponent, I never try gedan.

[Anjin-san]

If they know tsuki, you're toast.

[KenShi_JoB]

If they know tsuki, you're toast.

Hmmm, not necessary. May be or may be not. I saw a yudansha kendoka use a type of gedan(kensen not low as in kata, but below horizontal) effectively and the opponent do use tsuki unsuccessfully.

[KhawMengLee]

I just wonderd...why isn't anyone using other kamaes than chudan in battle...it would perhaps be a shock for the other kendoka if you would just start to use ....ähh..lets say yo no kamae( = waki )...this would catch many kendokas by suprise wouldn't it...and this might help to score a point.....

to you're infomation: I haven't jet have a battle in a championc.....

Kendo today has limited targets and strike techniques. For example, in Waki you can sidestep and slice upwards cutting from bottom to top...unfortunately, in kendo it has no zanshin and is not a valid hit. The same with gedan...you could tsuki your opponent in the gut but its not valid in kendo.

The more unorthodox kamae has to basically fit in to the valid targets we have today...remember kendo is not kenjutsu and is very different from actual sword fighting

[Kendoka_Shogun]

We were alerted by Inoue Yoshihiko Hanshi-Hachi Dan, that Waki Kamae was not to hide your blade, as in kata the opponent already knows how long your sword is, like gikeko when you draw, the opponent can already see the length. We were told it was so that you had two ways of attack without your opponent knowing (e.g an uppercut, or a basic men cut puling up into jodan. As in KhawMengLee's post, it would seem that many of the kamae are all based on strategic real battle positions, Hasso-kamae is used for samurai wearing large kabuto, so it is impossible for them to bring their Katana above their heads (Or so I am told) it would make sense too. Gedan is excellent for intimidation, seemingly vulnerable but great for tsuki in the belly.
I think the Kamae play more importance in Kendo Kata than in Gikeko or Shia, as Kata is to replicate strategy and conflict to some extent.


N e way, if u pull Hasso in Gikeko or Shia, you will look strong and fierce, Gedan you will be intimidating (but if you fail; stupid), Waki you will be exposed but willing, jodan, exposed but overpowering, and chudan, normal and composed.

[KenShi_JoB]

For example, in Waki you can sidestep and slice upwards cutting from bottom to top...unfortunately, in kendo it has no zanshin and is not a valid hit.

Why do it has no zanshin and not a valid hit? Just curious. I think that because wakigamae is very vulnerable to men cut, it is not use in modern kendo. But if someone strike to gyaku-do successfully, is it really against the rules?

[matt_bedford]

from what my sensei teach me, chudan is the most useful position. It provides distance from the enemy and also the oppurtunity to parry their attack if need be. Also, from that position you could also ski the enemy. :wink:

[KhawMengLee]

Why do it has no zanshin and not a valid hit? Just curious. I think that because wakigamae is very vulnerable to men cut, it is not use in modern kendo. But if someone strike to gyaku-do successfully, is it really against the rules?

Okay...from this kamae, you cut upwards and sidestep at the same time(a dou cut coming from below). Essentially, you use your opponent's force to aid in the cut. In kendo, we need to have forward motion, eg. when we do dou we need to move diagonally forward...in real life, moving diagonally forward might not be enough to get you away from your opponent's cut. Some of the rules set in kendo today, limits the validity of your kamae...

I use waki as a joke...when fooling around or sometimes to see what mudansha's do. I usually wait a few seconds then cut straight into men. But I would never try it against a experienced kendoka...

[Sepiraph]

People mainly use chudan and jodan in modern Kendo (and occasionally gedan) because of the rules in place. Since there are only 4-6 valid targets, there are significant restrictions on how to best choose your kamae due to that. In Kenjutsu, I suspect that things would be very different as it's evident that kamae like the waki existed for a reason.

[AkuSokuZan]

Did someone tell you you can't go waki in kendo???

Because it obviously doesn't offer any benefit... it is only beneficial if the opponent doesn't know the length of your sword, which is not the case in kendo... I am sure that people would recommend that you not do waki, but if someone wants to do something foolish like that, can they? It's not smart, but I have never heard of anyone saying you can't, even though they probably shouldn't.

I'm pretty sure that it would be impossible to do waki in a kendo match.

[AkuSokuZan]

Since there are only 4-6 valid targets, there are significant restrictions on how to best choose your kamae due to that.

Just being a pain in the ass, but there are 8.

[Sepiraph]

I'm not separately counting migi-men and hidari-men as different than men.

p.s. Don't be a pain in the ass.

[KenShi_JoB]

People mainly use chudan and jodan in modern Kendo (and occasionally gedan) because of the rules in place. Since there are only 4-6 valid targets, there are significant restrictions on how to best choose your kamae due to that. In Kenjutsu, I suspect that things would be very different as it's evident that kamae like the waki existed for a reason.

I think that a location is also one of the factors. If there are ceiling or any restriction on one side (such as a wall), Hasso or Waki would be more make sense. In kendo we only fight on a level ground with no obstacle. I think Musashi wrote about this in Go Rin no Sho. If I remeber correctly, he say that left and right waki are used when there are restriction on one side.

about the targets, Hasso is good for cut to the neck in kesagiri fashion. That target is not allow in kendo.

[KenShi_JoB]

Okay...from this kamae, you cut upwards and sidestep at the same time(a dou cut coming from below). Essentially, you use your opponent's force to aid in the cut. In kendo, we need to have forward motion, eg. when we do dou we need to move diagonally forward...in real life, moving diagonally forward might not be enough to get you away from your opponent's cut. Some of the rules set in kendo today, limits the validity of your kamae...

I don't think it is so different from normal gyaku-do except the cut is angle from below. but that's only my opinion anyway.

[D'Artagnan]

I just wonderd...why isn't anyone using other kamaes than chudan in battle...it would perhaps be a shock for the other kendoka if you would just start to use ....ähh..lets say yo no kamae( = waki )...this would catch many kendokas by suprise wouldn't it...and this might help to score a point.....

to you're infomation: I haven't jet have a battle in a championc.....


The best way to get an answer to this question is simple,

try it against some one who is half-decent, and compare how much you get battered, to how much you get battered when doing chudan.

p.s. if you ask me, chudan offers the quickest route to attack.

[Hisham]

p.s. if you ask me, chudan offers the quickest route to attack.
Why chudan? The answer is as simple as what D'Artagnan said IMHO

[Neil Gendzwill]

Chudan is basic because:
- it's good for both offense and defence
- it covers the centre
- it allows you to understand your maai (combative distance) due to the kensen's relation to each other
- it allows you to create openings through shikake-waza such as harai
- it allows you to feel what your opponent is doing through the kensen

If you take jodan for example, now you have to understand better the maai without any good gauge and also you have to be able to create an opportunity without manipulating the opponent's shinai ie pure seme. Also if you miss recovery is more difficult so a failed attack is a much bigger opportunity than in the chudan case. Hasso has similar problems, plus your left kote is open and you can really only attack straight or from right to left.

Gedan (real gedan with the tip close to the floor) and waki-gamae have problems with simply being too slow for shinai kendo. Gedan can work a little bit but if you try waki-gamae you will get creamed once the aite gets over the surprise of you taking that kamae.

An alternate kamae that is very useful is kasumi, search for that word here and you'll see it used. Works well against jodan and nito.

They're all legal kamae, nothing in the rules against them that I'm aware of.

[Zaphiel]

ähhh...what is kasumi-kamae??
never heard of it......

so okay....waki is too slow...that's a reason I totally accept
gedan the same and hasso again the same

but they are all legal??...puhh...that's funny...and are there any other kamaes???
what about nito...are there any other kamaes in nito than this mix out of jodan and chudan I've sseen in a video??

[KhawMengLee]

I don't think it is so different from normal gyaku-do except the cut is angle from below. but that's only my opinion anyway.

I'm not saying it can't be done but it won't score.

[Hisham]

ähhh...what is kasumi-kamae??
never heard of it......


Neil showed in a picture of his, i don't remember in which thread though. You'll have to research it

[Togashi Yokuni]

what about nito...are there any other kamaes in nito than this mix out of jodan and chudan I've sseen in a video??

When I went to the Hongkong Tournament last February, I had the pleasure of going up against a nito sensei during keiko. Now prior to this my sempai coached me that if I ever go up against a nito person, assume high chudan to reduce his effectiveness...which is what I did against this particular sensei from the start of the keiko. So we sparred like that for a few moments...then he changed kamae on me! The shoto went into a gedan-like position and the daito to a hasso-like position! I was so flustered that I completely missed my next few hits.

After a while, I figured out that I could do gyaku-do on him since it was open. So even though I've never really tried it before in ji-geiko, I attempted one. After the not so good attempt, the sensei smiled at me in acknowlegement of the try...then he changed kamae on me again! This time he held the shoto in high chudan, and the daito across his body! Back to adjusting for me!

All in all, this particular sensei showed me that even nito can have alternate kamae...and to always expect the unexpected from unknown opponents. :smiley:

Togashi

[Nazo]

I just wonderd...why isn't anyone using other kamaes than chudan in battle...it would perhaps be a shock for the other kendoka if you would just start to use ....ähh..lets say yo no kamae( = waki )...this would catch many kendokas by suprise wouldn't it...and this might help to score a point.....

to you're infomation: I haven't jet have a battle in a championc.....

Because chudan is the most well balanced kamae...
and also waki kamae just doesnt work in kendo, maybe you could try it out to absolute beginners.besides the waki was really just meant for hiding the length of your sword from the opponent, maybe you could fool around with it by confusing your opponent by switching to waki and then a jodan or something, but its really not advisable to do/use waki at all in kendo, as it just doesnt work, havent seen any tournament with waki kamae and for a good simple reason too. But then again I would really like to see someone use waki in an official tournamment and win, even if it be a fluke! Would be an interesting watch!

[D'Artagnan]

Why chudan? The answer is as simple as what D'Artagnan said IMHO

Chudan offers the quickest route to attack, in my opinion, because when you watch an advanced kendoka during shiai, they cut with correct te-no-uchi, ki-ken-tai, kime etc. but they rarely lift thier arms above thier head before striking (with the exception of certain nuki-waza). Thus, if you were to follow the line of thier kensen, it would travel straight towards thier opponent, and slightliy upwards (enough to achieve te-no-uchi on the desired target), and then down again striking the target.

Thus the kensen travels a faster route (practically a straight line) than it would if you were to attack from jyou-dan.

these are just my thoughts anyway.

Andy

[KenShi_JoB]

I'm not saying it can't be done but it won't score.

Yes, I agree that it is likely that the judge will not give a point. but do they really agaist the rule?

[KhawMengLee]

Yes, I agree that it is likely that the judge will not give a point. but do they really agaist the rule?

There's no rule that says you cannot usedifferent kamae. In fact you canstand on one foot and do the crane stance for all they care...if you don't mind looking like a total muppet when your opponent tsukis you Alaska;)

Once again its how effectively you can apply the kamae to valid kendo strikes.

[Zaphiel]

When I went to the Hongkong Tournament last February, I had the pleasure of going up against a nito sensei during keiko. Now prior to this my sempai coached me that if I ever go up against a nito person, assume high chudan to reduce his effectiveness...which is what I did against this particular sensei from the start of the keiko. So we sparred like that for a few moments...then he changed kamae on me! The shoto went into a gedan-like position and the daito to a hasso-like position! I was so flustered that I completely missed my next few hits.

After a while, I figured out that I could do gyaku-do on him since it was open. So even though I've never really tried it before in ji-geiko, I attempted one. After the not so good attempt, the sensei smiled at me in acknowlegement of the try...then he changed kamae on me again! This time he held the shoto in high chudan, and the daito across his body! Back to adjusting for me!

All in all, this particular sensei showed me that even nito can have alternate kamae...and to always expect the unexpected from unknown opponents. :smiley:

Togashi

so you think the kamaes are mainly the same and it's just that nitokas can just mix their kamaes...aha...well that's interessting thanx a lot.

so if noone can tell me what the kamae is neil told about can you at least tell me if there are more kamaes than the 5 normal ones?

[Neil Gendzwill]

There are lots of slight variations. If you took 30 seconds and searched for "kasumi" here you'd find everything you need about that one.

[Paburo]

also, not long ago saitou sensei taught us the 5 different forms of chudan/seigan no kamae. plus kasumi.

for us *newbies*, it's enough complicated in chudan to be playing around with other kamae.

to me chudan is much more effective than anything else, using the 5 variations.

in nitou you have both seigan and joudan at the same time. seme and block with chudan shoto, and attack with katate joudan daito... argh, talk about complicated...

[Hisham]

Chudan offers the quickest route to attack, in my opinion, because when you watch an advanced kendoka during shiai, they cut with correct te-no-uchi, ki-ken-tai, kime etc. but they rarely lift thier arms above thier head before striking (with the exception of certain nuki-waza). Thus, if you were to follow the line of thier kensen, it would travel straight towards thier opponent, and slightliy upwards (enough to achieve te-no-uchi on the desired target), and then down again striking the target.

Thus the kensen travels a faster route (practically a straight line) than it would if you were to attack from jyou-dan.

these are just my thoughts anyway.

Andy

I totally agree with you, i guess you thought my post was a "sarcastic" one because i used "as simple as" but by simple i meant logical. In case you got my meaning then just ignore this post and long live Chudan :D

[D'Artagnan]

I totally agree with you, i guess you thought my post was a "sarcastic" ...



No mate, not at all :smiley:

[Hisham]

All righty then:)

[mad_god]

so you think the kamaes are mainly the same and it's just that nitokas can just mix their kamaes...aha...well that's interessting thanx a lot.

so if noone can tell me what the kamae is neil told about can you at least tell me if there are more kamaes than the 5 normal ones?

It's waste of time discuss about forms of kamae and its variations too much.
For every opponent will have the suitable position (or kamae if you prefer) to fight the opponent, and further, different maais.
The most important in the end is the Kokorogamae.

MG

[ISSAC RU]

Because you can't handle anything else beside chudan

[Ninjujinkaku]

Why do people who fight muay thai,san shou, kickboxing, ufc, and MMA in general all have the same stand up fighting stance? cause its what works the best for the most people.

[danstu]

I always use it because quite simply, that's the easiest one to use. Not only do most of the other stances make it much harder to strike certain targets, but most of them leave you open to strikes. Chudan allows you to execute any of the strikes quickly, but it also allows you to block easily. Many of the other students at my dojo try to incorporate several stances, but I don't see the point, chudan is far easier to use effectivly than any of the others.

[kanyil]

I always use it because quite simply, that's the easiest one to use.


For every opponent will have the suitable position (or kamae if you prefer) to fight the opponent, and further, different maais.


absolutely agreed with you danstu. but you may need to adjust your kamae to the situation. a standard chudan may not be the best option when fencing a jodan/nito user. Waki might not be the most effective for kendo, but one is certainly free to use it.



All in all, this particular sensei showed me that even nito can have alternate kamae...and to always expect the unexpected from unknown opponents


what about nito...are there any other kamaes in nito than this mix out of jodan and chudan I've sseen in a video??

Tell me about it. My nito sensei's dual jodan kamae can be very intimidating. :D

A visiting nito sensei keikoed me using nito-chudan to great effect, his use of tsukis and the jiuji block (cross block), made his defenses almost impenetrable, and if you get too close, he'll deflect your shinai with his shoto, and then it's raining renzoku wazas (that man has an easier time doing rokudan renzoku wazas with 1 hand than I have with 2 hands).

[mad_god]

absolutely agreed with you danstu. but you may need to adjust your kamae to the situation. a standard chudan may not be the best option when fencing a jodan/nito user. Waki might not be the most effective for kendo, but one is certainly free to use it.

A visiting nito sensei keikoed me using nito-chudan to great effect, his use of tsukis and the jiuji block (cross block), made his defenses almost impenetrable, and if you get too close, he'll deflect your shinai with his shoto, and then it's raining renzoku wazas (that man has an easier time doing rokudan renzoku wazas with 1 hand than I have with 2 hands).

Kamaes in Nitou seems limited due to the power/limited movements you can do with one arm with accurate coordination.
Talking about keiko (half/one hour) can be very exhaustive.

MG

[hlonsberry]

i used to like waki kamae when I played kendo

it was great for surprise, but also suited my body type

i am tall and have very long arms and legs, shifting into waki kamae and a slight shuffle back or to the side would throw off an opponents maai, plus you can cover a considerable distance from that stance if you need too, but it is rather slow

was i successful with it? not very often but it was fun to try once in a while, though i found hitting doh with it to be easier than men

i liked doing it from my iaido experience anyways

[kanyil]

Kamaes in Nitou seems limited due to the power/limited movements you can do with one arm with accurate coordination.
Talking about keiko (half/one hour) can be very exhaustive.

MG

Agreed! But to opponents who are unfamiliar with nito the variations seem limitless, at least until they get used to it. It's funny how something seemingly more "complex" (i.e. 2 swords) is actually operating to a set of simpler rules, while something seemingly more "basic" (i.e. chudan) actually is a lot more complex.

In recent months I have gone back to work on my chudan more. The more I branch out, the more I find that I need to go back to the basics.

[Xero Divide]

I've asked myself the same question more than once. Chudan, in most respects, is the default sword posture of Kenjutsu or Kendo. Chudan is most balanced of sword postures to me for many reasons:

1. If ones was to strike, it is harder to predict where the strike will be coming from, and where it will end.

2. Aside from Kocho No Kamae (which is a piercing stance utilized in Ninjustu) Chudan is the easiest to pierce with.

3. In theory, Chudan No Kamae is already a block.

4. The way in which the blade is "standing" when the practioner is in Chudan No Kamae, it is intimidating when the sword is in the enemy's face; so it's a way of psyching them out.

5. After striking or aborbing a strike, I find the footing in Chudan more efficent for advancing, sidestepping, or retreating.

6. Considering again the posture of the blade when in Chudan, it does not leave you as open for a strike.

Once again, these are advantages I find in using Chudan. Best of luck to everyone on this forum in their endeavors of wielding the sword.

[moocow65]

Agreed! But to opponents who are unfamiliar with nito the variations seem limitless, at least until they get used to it. It's funny how something seemingly more "complex" (i.e. 2 swords) is actually operating to a set of simpler rules, while something seemingly more "basic" (i.e. chudan) actually is a lot more complex.

In recent months I have gone back to work on my chudan more. The more I branch out, the more I find that I need to go back to the basics.

I actually do both kamae, and to me, nito is way more complex than chudan. And the kamae variations actually are limitless. The ones I use right now are: House of Pain, Matrix, Crouching Tiger, Rainbow, Touche, and some others that I don't have names for yet.

[piggy]

there was a thread on the pros and cons of gedan...

as a beginner, your best bet is to just stick with chudan. or so me thinks.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

I actually do both kamae, and to me, nito is way more complex than chudan. And the kamae variations actually are limitless. The ones I use right now are: House of Pain, Matrix, Crouching Tiger, Rainbow, Touche, and some others that I don't have names for yet.

Uh oh, looks like Moocow has been hanging around with the aquatic windu crowd.

[piggy]

for moocow, movies can lead us to execute false kendo moves. but as long as you dont get a foul, who cares eh?

[KhawMengLee]

Tho' Moo Moo's waza names may sound like a joke...er, his Nito kendo isn't. He's a team USA member and even though the President is an inept idiot, the US Kendo squad definately aren't.

[Inouye02]

check it out, Moocow flies in from the main land 6 hrs, comes straight to the tournament, and proceeds to take 1st place, unbelievable guys....

[misterkurukuru]

for piggy,
ask people around the PNKF about moocow if you dont know who he is. If you do know who he is, you have some large NUTTZ! just ask the Japanese imports at the mililani tournament, Moo-train was steam rolling people!

will you be at the US championships this weekend? If you will be, you can talkith the smackith in person.

[Paikea]

for piggy...
will you be at the US championships this weekend? If you will be, you can talkith the smackith in person.Piggy, it's time to smile, keep your hands in plain sight and back out the door slowly...

Go Chun-Fang Huang! Go Jason Akahoshi! :)

[misterkurukuru]

paikea, a group from obukan was at the tournament in hawaii, where you there as well?

[Paikea]

paikea, a group from obukan was at the tournament in hawaii, where you there as well?No,(dammit!) but my son (James Hunter) was. I could not find a way to tell the wife that he and I were going to Hawaii and Japan (they went there after the tourney) and that she was staying home without dealing with lawyers, loss of half my $$ and a loaded weapon.

[misterkurukuru]

hahahaha, well the obukan people did well, but i think all the practice they did during the week, really drained them. it was a great tournament, with good obento. how did your son do?

[Paikea]

hahahaha, well the obukan people did well, but i think all the practice they did during the week, really drained them. it was a great tournament, with good obento. how did your son do?I'm not sure, I heard he won 7 of 8 matches, but I'm not certain that was at the Hawaii taikai or just an intradojo taikai at Ekenaga-sensei's dojo. They get back late tomorrow night, so I'll get the gory details then. It's that heat man, we don't get any of that here.

[Paikea]

...but i think all the practice they did during the week, really drained them.Oh crap...that means hyasuburi till the cows come home when Hancock-sensei gets back.

[misterkurukuru]

SCI teamed up with hancock sensei, lonney, and Suzaka. The two youngsters are getting pretty good, maybe in a few years they will be able to give us a run for our money. You can ask your son about moocow's matches. I thought hancock sensei dabbled in a little nito himself.

[Paikea]

Oh Dear God...James drew Moocow? Ouch.

(Sorry to hijack the thread, I'll knock it off now)

[misterkurukuru]

i think suzaka drew moocow in the round robin. the tourny was divided by age for the kyu. 1-2 dan, 3-5 dan, and 35 years old and up yudansha group.

[Paikea]

i think suzaka drew moocow in the round robin. the tourny was divided by age for the kyu. 1-2 dan, 3-5 dan, and 35 years old and up yudansha group.Ah, that makes sense. The image that came to mind wasn't pretty, but amusing. I'll never make dad of the year with a mind like this...

[Aijin'sNeko]

its a shame that waki is so hard (if not impossible) to fight in, thats my favourite kamae in the kata, its just cool, and unusual, maybe someone could post some videos of them fighting in it?

[piggy]

i'll probably enter a tournament few times in my life. i know how bad i would get my ass kicked... they would have to call in a medic. i was tired when i wrote it so im sorry for the ignorance. my apologies.




for piggy,
ask people around the PNKF about moocow if you dont know who he is. If you do know who he is, you have some large NUTTZ! just ask the Japanese imports at the mililani tournament, Moo-train was steam rolling people!

will you be at the US championships this weekend? If you will be, you can talkith the smackith in person.

[piggy]

and as for fighting in waki, it leaves you open.

its purpose is to hide the length of the blade confusing your opponent which because in kendo the length of the shinais differ very little, it would be very impractical to do.

do it if you please...

[Hyaku]

and as for fighting in waki, it leaves you open.

its purpose is to hide the length of the blade confusing your opponent which because in kendo the length of the shinais differ very little, it would be very impractical to do.

do it if you please...

I would have disgree with that doing a lot of waki gamae and gedan.

Its that fact that you can adopt another stance having a full understanding of ma ai and deal with an opponent from that kamae if the kansen is pointing at the opponent or is elsewhere that is of the essence.

The thing is these stances offer little benefit as they generally respond with thrusts and cuts to areas not used in Kendo and came directly to that area rather than up and over the head as we see in kendo kata. Not much point taking up gedan and cutting into someones neck as they attack with Shomen.

[misterkurukuru]

if you are in a round robin or doing a team match where you need to tie, gedan and waki kamae is a nice option against jodan and nito players. of course you need a lot of foot speed and the ability to estamate distance. this is a tournament only tactic, so for our kihon kendo people i would think that they would rather role over and die than do this.

[Neil Gendzwill]

How are they better than just playing defensively from chudan?

[misterkurukuru]

Nito- negates the shoto when the nito player is attacking ( you are not going to attack, well maybe defensively hit). With your hands down, you only have to worry about men and tsuki, so paired with good foot speed, you can stay away.

Jodan- take away kote, screws with there distance as well. “bendy” kendo required. But if they know you have the skill to do a nice tsuki, its enough to detour them from occasionally going for the men (which is wide open).

Chudan- even though this is the kamae I use, I believe most people are too scared of nito and jodan players to be able to adopt this kamae effectively. I use these kamae to score, not for defense.

I am just saying that gedan and waki kamae can be used for getting a hikiwake with a jodan and nito player. Its tourney style cheap kendo, but sometimes you “gotta” do what you “gotta” do.

[misterkurukuru]

sorry about the d-post, let me clear something up. the chudan section is about using chudan against nito and jodan.

[kanyil]

I actually do both kamae, and to me, nito is way more complex than chudan. And the kamae variations actually are limitless. The ones I use right now are: House of Pain, Matrix, Crouching Tiger, Rainbow, Touche, and some others that I don't have names for yet.

Ha Moocow, you tease us with all these intriguing kamaes, yet we never get to see them! :D

I remember seeing a clip from one of the Steveston tournaments where a nito guy opens his shoto to the outside of his body, almost pointing 45 degrees out-and-down. Is that one of your kamaes?

[Aijin'sNeko]

we should create some i think, and a little online guide to fighting in them, would really throw off opponents!

[Inouye02]

Ha Moocow, you tease us with all these intriguing kamaes, yet we never get to see them! :D

I remember seeing a clip from one of the Steveston tournaments where a nito guy opens his shoto to the outside of his body, almost pointing 45 degrees out-and-down. Is that one of your kamaes?You just might get to see Moocow in the next worlds........Most likely will see him..

[samurai999]

Bump...

I think I saw "the Matrix" at US champs or was that "the Rainbow".....

Tim

[Kmav]

I think its because chudan creates the most distance between you and the opponent.

[KenShi_JoB]

I think its because chudan creates the most distance between you and the opponent.

Hmm..I think jodan create more distance than chudan, usually.

[Nameless]

ähhh...what is kasumi-kamae??
never heard of it......

so okay....waki is too slow...that's a reason I totally accept
gedan the same and hasso again the same

but they are all legal??...puhh...that's funny...and are there any other kamaes???
what about nito...are there any other kamaes in nito than this mix out of jodan and chudan I've sseen in a video??

see here for Kasumi-kamae
musashikai.jp/pc/02_water/ img/kamae_kasumi.jpg

It's only really useful in nito-ryu.

For other kamae see http://dune.mine.nu/~newton/aikibudo/kobudo.html

As far as other kamae used in kendo, I've seen a few kenshi make good use of hasso-kamae

[moocow65]

Bump...

I think I saw "the Matrix" at US champs or was that "the Rainbow".....

Tim

Hahaha, I did the Matrix in the semi-finals, but I missed the dude's men. I won the championships with the Rainbow. I am now in the works of my new ultimate kamae. THE AIR JORDAN

[samurai999]

THE AIR JORDAN

Niiiiiiiice..

Tim