Hasso-no-kamae

[John W]

In the position of hasso-no-kamae, is the only option to attack when you lift the sword over head and strike men like kata no.4?

Also is hasso-no-kamae used often by other kendoka here with any success in keiko?

I read a little passage about this stance, it reads..

Hasso-no-kamae
"Also called the tree kamae, use it to attack your opponent after carefully observing and adapting to their movements."

I still cannot understand if this stance is defensive like gedan-no-kamae or an offensive stance like hidari-jodan-no-kamae.

:confused:

[mingshi]

Hasso... in Kanji, means "eight directions". Ideally you can cut 8 parts of your opponent??

I was told that Hasso was used in ancient combat. As the Japanese armors were quite bulky, especially around the helmet, it's relatively difficult to go up to Jodan/raise your sword above your head.

...but I'm not sure if this is the practical reason to use Hasso~

???

[Hyaku]

In the search for why we do these things in Kendo like Jodan and Hasso kamae it gets to an utterly confusing state in trying to compare them with older Budo. I think we just have to accept that they are modified versions of old techniques.

Principally we are confusing them with styles of swordsmanship that worked on cutting unprotected parts of the body such as into the neck, under the arms,wrists, under the chin, in between the legs, etc.

The practice of bringing the hands behind the head to cut from hasso all seems slow and strange to me. I have only ever seen it in Kendo related kata. But I am sure others must do it some form.

In doing this one is momentarily blinded by ones own sleeves when wearing Japanese clothing. One sees the use of tasuki for demonstrations in some ryu. But under normal circumstances this was not done.

Also cutting from either right or left hasso in older styles sees the hands raised so high that the lower wrist is tucked in and is higher than the ear. Cuts are directed up and forward. Body cuts sometimes finished in gedan. We never see arms straight and outstretched on completing cuts even in Iaido.

Much different to the adapted kata we now see.

Many thing to consider. Its fun to adapt and try things out if possible. But that's exactly what it is.

Gedan Kamae is defensive? That's news to me. I don't consider any kamae as defensive. Maybe Shinkage ryu as taught to people of high standing with the purpose of nullifiying the opponent?

Hyaku

[Sakabato]

I have a question about this stance.

When you go into Hasso no kamae do you turn to your left or right side? Is either side correct? Or must you be on one side as mandatory? What about Fumikomi when in Hasso? Can you use your right foot? Or must you use your left?

On a side note... can you score a point by holding your Shinai with your right hand? Say, for some odd reason you lost your left handed grip on the tsuka, and now have the opportunity to strike a clean men. Only problem is you are holding the shinai with your right hand, and there isn't enough time left to bring your left hand back on the tsuka.

[D'Artagnan]

On a side note... can you score a point by holding your Shinai with your right hand? Say, for some odd reason you lost your left handed grip on the tsuka, and now have the opportunity to strike a clean men. Only problem is you are holding the shinai with your right hand, and there isn't enough time left to bring your left hand back on the tsuka.


In the situation you describe, No.

As for Hasso no Kamae, it is useless in terms of Shinai Kendo. It has no practical benefits whatsoever, and it's best to concentrate on learning the basics ;)

[stealth_monkey]

There's an older kendoka in Sydney that uses Hasso in shiai. I thought it would be rude to ask, so I'm not sure as to the exact reasons for it. His style seemed to focus on ojiwaza against his opponent's inevitable strike to kote

[Sakabato]

What are the situations when you can score with the right hand alone? The situation I described is no good... so I'm interested in knowing when it can be done! Also, must the strike have right Fumikomi or the regular left? Or does it matter at all?


There's an older kendoka in Sydney that uses Hasso in shiai. I thought it would be rude to ask, so I'm not sure as to the exact reasons for it. His style seemed to focus on ojiwaza against his opponent's inevitable strike to kote

Hi, Sensei James Yamasaki from Pasadena Japanese Cultural Institute in C.A. uses Hasso no Kamae from time to time. It seems to be useful for knocking incoming men strikes to the side by sweeping the tip of the shinai across the forehead . The stance fully protects your Do and rear Kote from possible strikes... but leaves your leading Kote open. And well men is open too, but since the shinai is so close to the side of your head you have the ability to respond quickly.

[D'Artagnan]

What are the situations when you can score with the right hand alone? The situation I described is no good... so I'm interested in knowing when it can be done!

If your left arm is missing and you therefore do Gyaku-Katate-Jodan... That's the only time I have seen one-handed right-hand attacks scored... As for Fumikomi, at higher levels you can do fumikomi with either foot, as long as you do it properly.

As for the effectiveness of Hasso... until I see someone even qualify for a shiai like the All Japans or the WKC using it, I will remain convinced that it is useless in a Shiai situation (against a skilled opponent)...

[Welshy]

I thought it was a matter of efficiency. With kendo's rules anything Hasso can do Chudan/Jodan/(Nito...?) can do better - so no-one bothers with Hasso, because it's like shooting yourself in the foot. Am I wrong?

The way I see it compared to Hasso: Jodan is superior for offense, Chudan is superior for doing oji-waza and Nito is superior because you can practice kendo and tossing salad at the same time.

[rfoxmich]

The last time someone used hasso with me in a practice I threw in a tsuki. That sort of finished that foolishness.
Hasso no kamae's purpose, (if I understand it correctly is/was:
- To serve like a jodan if you are wearing a kabuto that has enough 'ornamentation' that you can't get your arms around it.
- To ideally place the sword to do kesa-giri ...which is not legal in shinai kendo.
- To place the sword so you can reasonably do sueho (spelling?) ..which again is not likely to be so good in shinai kendo.
- To provide a perspective that also makes it difficult to judge the length of your sword...which is pretty useless in kendo when you know the shinai's
maximum length.

In summary from my limited understanding. In adopting Hasso no kamae you've placed the shinai so that it is relatively worthless in attack, in accordance with what Hasso is for and what is legal in shinai kendo, and to do so you've given up the advantages of chudan with respect to warding off the opponent.

This is not to say that one cannot find something in Hasso that works against some opposition by some kenshi...but for myself chudan is hard enough and sufficient for my practice without mixing in other kamae (though I did make a multi-year forray into jodan when I had a competent jodanist around to help me out).

[ender84567]

Andy you are missing nito for right handed cuts, I have seen someone score with the shoto in the right hand (dou) in the us nationals. Also there are some situations where you cut the dou with the right hand, but it is a advanced technique and I wouldnt even worry that it exists until you are yondan or up.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Some people will use hasso when transitioning from chudan to jodan if the maai is close. As a normal kamae, it is too exposed for shinai kendo.

[D'Artagnan]

Andy you are missing nito for right handed cuts.

Yeah, I stand corrected on that, most Nito-players in Kyoto (there are actually a surprisingly large amount, some graded as high as 6dan) hold the Daito in their right hand, so all of their Ippon are usually scored using right-handed Katate-waza too... Never seen anyone score with the Shoto in Japan yet though, though admittedly most people don't bother trying...

[tango]

The only practical use for hasso that I can conceptualize comes when trying to do katsugi-waza.

I don't know if it's correct to say, in that instance, that hasso is used... but that's the closest I can visualize...

for the uninitiated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSlr2ww0cU0&feature=player_embedded#!

[Cutie_honey]

There's an older kendoka in Sydney that uses Hasso in shiai. I thought it would be rude to ask, so I'm not sure as to the exact reasons for it. His style seemed to focus on ojiwaza against his opponent's inevitable strike to kote

Really?
Who is this?

I've never seen anyone in Sydney fight with hasso

[UnimportantHero]

I kinda wanna say that if Kendoka-A were attempting tsuki on Kendoka-B, and Kendoka-B wa in hasso-no-kamae, they could draw their weapon laterally across the center line and shove the attempted tsuki to the side and then perform hiki-men or hiki-kote or something like that maybe. But that would kinda require knowing that Kendoka-A would attempt tsuki... But I am going to say, physically, I find that it is a very comfortable stance. Maestas Sensei told me that it is an aggressive stance like judan-no-kamae, not passive like gedan-no-kamae.

[verissimus]

I kinda wanna say that if Kendoka-A were attempting tsuki on Kendoka-B, and Kendoka-B wa in hasso-no-kamae, they could draw their weapon laterally across the center line and shove the attempted tsuki to the side and then perform hiki-men or hiki-kote or something like that maybe.

You can do that from chudan too.

[ender84567]

Hasso is jodan, so its the same ki for both stances, and seme is essentially the same. You would have better luck slamming the tsuki downward with the tsuka gashira in the same manner that jodan players do, however If ron threw a tsuki at you, you would have to have a leprechaun under your kote to get away with that. Just because the tsuki missed or you deflected it does not mean their attack is dead, I throw tsuki men all the time and kendoka A in your example would now have a prime setup for men or dou depending on what B did. As far as comfortable, you are probably doing it wrong, there should be tension in every kamae, not muscularly but almost as if the kamae is on a spring growing from your body. There is no safe place to relax in kendo.

[JSchmidt]

Hasso got all the disadvantages of jodan, but very little of the advantages.

[Obukan_dude]

Outside of Kata and some Kihon, do people even use Hasso?

[Neil Gendzwill]

One thing you can do from hasso that you can't readily from jodan is take your opponent out with uchiotoshi-men when they go for that inviting kote.

Just sayin'. I wouldn't use it in taikai, but there's stuff you can do.

[krys]

What are the situations when you can score with the right hand alone? The situation I described is no good... so I'm interested in knowing when it can be done!


If your left arm is missing and you therefore do Gyaku-Katate-Jodan...
Or when your left arm is still there but for some reason you use reversed stance, meaning hold the end of tsuka with right hand not left.

[rfoxmich]

But katsugi waza the 'shouldering of the shina' is a transitory thing.. not actually a kamae.


The only practical use for hasso that I can conceptualize comes when trying to do katsugi-waza.

I don't know if it's correct to say, in that instance, that hasso is used... but that's the closest I can visualize...

for the uninitiated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSlr2ww0cU0&feature=player_embedded#!

[Sakabato]

Well, if they shoot for your leading right Kote can't you just pull your hand down off the Tsuka then strike with your left hand (Like Jodan). It sounds pretty natural to me. I feel like Hasso no Kamae is more defensive than Jodan though. Because both your Do sides are protected, your rear hand (The Left) is behind and thus protected, and since the Shinai is so close to the side of your head, you can easily sweep the Shinai tip across your forehead when someone shoots for men. To sweep just pull with your left hand away from your body, this will cause the tip to sweep across your forehead and whack an attack away. The only real spot that is dangerously open is your leading right Kote. Because it is right in front of you and thus an easy target. I think you might also be able to ward of a Tsuki by doing the same motion when warding off a Men strike. I feel it works best defensively, as a reaction to something in coming, rather than you trying to be aggressive. Though I guess you could be aggressive when you react, lol.

[ender84567]

I dont think you know what the hell your talking about, both dou are open, and its the left kote they would strike.

[Sakabato]

I'm talking about Hasso on the left side rather than the right. With the arms low enough to mostly protect the Do.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hass%C5%8D-no-kamae
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:S5000633.JPG

Like in that picture with the body turned to the side a little. That stance is on the right side though.

[ender84567]

Hasso isisnt done one on the other side, too awkward, and lower to protect do is incorrect kamae. again you are talking with your butt. Even in chudan the dou is open, the target area is lower than you think. If a beginner has a weak kamae i can sqeek a dou in without doing mukai zuki and they dont even have to raise their arms. With jodan/hasso you remove the physical barrier of the shinai, so its even easier. I aslo hate to be critical of a stranger on the internet but that picture is a bad example of hasso, there are several issues with it.

[b8amack]

Even in chudan the dou is open

Just to be clear, are you saying one can score a valid dou ippon against someone whose arms have not strayed from chudan?

[ender84567]

yes, easily against someone with a weak kamae, wouldn't be my first choice but its fun to do in practice.

[JSchmidt]

yes, easily against someone with a weak kamae, wouldn't be my first choice but its fun to do in practice.

No. Weak kamae or not, the do wouldn't score.

[Neil Gendzwill]

No. Weak kamae or not, the do wouldn't score.Especially with doh, we are looking for riai. I don't like to see people swinging at doh with the aite in chudan, lots of hit elbows that way. I agree it can be open especially if the aite tends to hold his hands out, but it wouldn't be a point in my book. If you can get his hands moving as you come in, no problem.

[Rennis]

Hasso isisnt done one on the other side, too awkward....


True for kendo, but hasso is performed on both sides in a number of older kenjusu ryuha. Not that that has much of anything to do with the current conversation but....

Rennis

[ender84567]

just out of curiosity rennis what cuts are made from the other side? I cant figure that one out, everything feels too akward except maybe a horizontal. right arm is too extended and left too bunched up for anything else to feel smooth enough to actually cut.

[ender84567]

Especially with doh, we are looking for riai. I don't like to see people swinging at doh with the aite in chudan, lots of hit elbows that way. I agree it can be open especially if the aite tends to hold his hands out, but it wouldn't be a point in my book. If you can get his hands moving as you come in, no problem.

If they just stood there looking slack jawed and dead, the shinpan would almost have to give the point, everything else is there. I agree its easy to hit elbows that way, but not if you know what you are doing.

[Josh Reyer]

just out of curiosity rennis what cuts are made from the other side? I cant figure that one out, everything feels too akward except maybe a horizontal. right arm is too extended and left too bunched up for anything else to feel smooth enough to actually cut.This will vary from ryuha to ryuha, so I'll only speak for Yagyu Shinkage-ryu.
First of all, the tsuka, and thus the space between the fists, is shorter than in kendo. This means that the body doesn't cant towards the left on a straight cut. We cant our bodies naturally for diagonal cuts -- towards the left for a diagonal right-to-left cut, and towards the right on a right-to-left cut. Hasso, then, is simply the same basic cut, but from the side of the head, rather than overhead. If one cuts with the whole body, rather than the hands, any cut from regular hasso can also be done from gyaku-hasso -- to the head, body, or legs. If one merely uses the arms, then, as you say, the right arm extends too early and limits the extension of the left.

From the perspective of another ryu with different cutting mechanics, here are some clips:
Jigen-ryu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfAaAdzmF7o)
Nodachi Jigen-ryu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVSONNESfyE)

[Bokushingu]

If they just stood there looking slack jawed and dead, the shinpan would almost have to give the point, everything else is there. I agree its easy to hit elbows that way, but not if you know what you are doing.

Just curious...have you scored an ippon in the Dan division like how you described? I'm told without creating a favorable moment to strike, it's just sniping or playing tag.

[b8amack]

If they just stood there looking slack jawed and dead, the shinpan would almost have to give the point, everything else is there. I agree its easy to hit elbows that way, but not if you know what you are doing.

I saw practice stopped recently so my instructor could point out to everyone that you'd never get a point off of this.

[ender84567]

nope purely intellectual, it would be a risky chance, and if you could pull it off a men would come just as easily I would imagine.

[tango]

But katsugi waza the 'shouldering of the shina' is a transitory thing.. not actually a kamae.

Yeah that's fine.. I was just trying to articulate that the closest, practical use of hasso I could conceptualize would be katsugi waza (and even then, I wasn't sure it would be correct to say it [i.e., "practical use of hasso"] that way)...

[UnimportantHero]

As far as comfortable, you are probably doing it wrong, there should be tension in every kamae, not muscularly but almost as if the kamae is on a spring growing from your body. There is no safe place to relax in kendo.

I meant comfortable as in.... it does not feel like there is torque on my elbows or wrists. I do not have much muscle strength in those areas yet, which means that my hyperflexibility syndrome tends to hyper-extend or hyper-flex them in some positions. Since it is all bent in hasso-no-kamae, I do not have to wrestle with loose joints moving further than I want them to. Still working on that. Gedan feels more comfortable than chudan for similar reasons, because I have yet to get a strong enough chudan (working on that for sure!) to not have my elbows do some uncomfortable things. Like hyper-extend and twist outward and up to the ceiling.

:)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Off topic for this thread but... Emily, make sure in chudan that your elbows are somewhat bent. Many beginners stand in chudan with their arms too straight, this locks them up and prevents them from moving naturally and of course in your case may create further problems.

[ender84567]

drift again but are you by chance double jointed in the elbows? I know its more common in females and presents some interesting challenges for kendo.

[UnimportantHero]

Apologies for the drift. Good advice from Neil (thanks!) and yes to Ender's question. Elbows, wrists, knees, fingers, lower back, and hip sockets. If people think it is worth a conversation, I would be happy to start its own thread, since hypermobility syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermobility) comes up for me a bunch, though not to the extent that it does in some of the pics on the wikipedia page. Woah...

[ender84567]

My wife had this too with the elbows, it certainly complicates suburi among other things. Basically in kendo there are not many times you will want to be hyperextended, though I know stopping it voluntarily is not an easy thing.

[IronWarrior]

Forgive me for bringing a old topic back to life, but it's better then starting a new one yes?

Have we all seen this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MezNBIf8RzY#t=135s

I thought I comment because I was learning Kata's 4, 5 and 6 on Tuesday practice where you had to do Hasso in one of them, someone brought it up that you could use it in shiai but it's more likely to confuse people then be effective. Since I like to try new things, thought I might pop it in once or twice during Jigeiko.

[Halcyon]

I suppose you could say that katsugi waza is kinda like hasso (or gyaku-hasso). If it's used in katsugi waza, it's more of a transitional kamae (as in the video clip), if it's a kamae at all. Give it a shot and get back to us on how it worked out.

[jjcruiser]

I suppose you could say that katsugi waza is kinda like hasso (or gyaku-hasso). If it's used in katsugi waza, it's more of a transitional kamae (as in the video clip), if it's a kamae at all. Give it a shot and get back to us on how it worked out.

I don't think I've seen katsugi on the right shoulder like hasso, only on the left. Can you use katsugi waza on the right shoulder?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't think I've seen katsugi on the right shoulder like hasso, only on the left. Can you use katsugi waza on the right shoulder?There's no rule against it.

[verissimus]

I don't think I've seen katsugi on the right shoulder like hasso, only on the left. Can you use katsugi waza on the right shoulder?

Wouldn't that be somewhat difficult / uneconomical / slower to do? I'm only doing a thought experiment, but it seems the pull-push mechanism that the left hand is used for, is easier done on the left side of the body, than on the right side.

[verissimus]

someone brought it up that you could use it in shiai but it's more likely to confuse people then be effective.

At a tournament a few months ago, my opponent did chudan, then jodan, then gedan, and then wakigamae. It was a team match and the result had already been decided, so I guess he was just playing around. Yes, it was confusing.

[turboyoshi]

I don't think I've seen katsugi on the right shoulder like hasso, only on the left. Can you use katsugi waza on the right shoulder?
According to my AJKF dictionary, katsugi waza specifically refers to shifting the shinai to the left shoulder. I don't think there'd be anything wrong with trying to shift to the right shoulder but it doesn't feel as efficient to strike from that position, at least to me. Plus, what would be the point? In katsugi waza, you are offering a very tempting kote but in hasso, kote isn't open and men isn't quite so irresistible.

[jjcruiser]

According to my AJKF dictionary, katsugi waza specifically refers to shifting the shinai to the left shoulder. I don't think there'd be anything wrong with trying to shift to the right shoulder but it doesn't feel as efficient to strike from that position, at least to me. Plus, what would be the point? In katsugi waza, you are offering a very tempting kote but in hasso, kote isn't open and men isn't quite so irresistible.

Ah. Thanks.

I certainly didn't say I'm gung ho to try it. I was just curious if it was ever done. I always thought the advantage to the katsugi waza was that it throws off the timing and changes the angle of attack; the times I've tried it I don't sit there trying to encourage kote because I'm afraid I'll get toasted if I wait. I don't know how it would be slower or less efficient from one side or the other -- I leave that to others who are more experienced.

[Halcyon]

I don't think I've seen katsugi on the right shoulder like hasso, only on the left. Can you use katsugi waza on the right shoulder?
That's why I said gyaku-hasso.

[Neil Gendzwill]

In katsugi waza, you are offering a very tempting kote but in hasso, kote isn't open and men isn't quite so irresistible.The point of katsugi waza is not to offer kote, or at least not generally.

[jjcruiser]

While we are on this subject, I've been taught two different ways of doing katsugi waza. One way is to bring the shinai sharply back to the left shoulder, almost vertically (a lot more like hasso but on the left) and fumikomi on both the snap back to the shoulder and on the nearly straight-forward cut afterwards. Like a nidan waza. The other way I was more recently introduced to is to bring your right foot out in a wide sweep and similarly widely sweep the shinai back over the left shoulder, never really leaving it there or impacting the shoulder and certainly not stamping as you do so, and then bringing it forward as you lunge into fumikomi. I hope I am describing these well. They seem almost like different waza to me. Are there names for these more particular than "katsugi waza"? Just different ways of doing it? (An aside, I was surprised when I asked about the footwork for approach "b" that you do not cut upon bringing the left foot up, as in suriashi, you still do normal fumikomi.)

Thoughts?

[tango]

on the question of katsugi waza to the left and/or right shoulder, I can't remember exactly where I heard/saw/learned this, but the way it was presented to me:

katsugi to the left shoulder -- opponent reacts to shinai movement, opening men.
katsugi to the right shoulder -- opponent reacts to shinai movement, opening kote.

nothing i know of says you can't try katsugi-anything from either the left or right shoulder..
but I can imagine a couple different scenarios where it would seem either impractical or risky (ippon-wise) if you try it form the right side (..and that doesn't include the generic situation where you go to katsugi and aite just blasts forward and hits your men)

[tango]

While we are on this subject, I've been taught two different ways of doing katsugi waza. One way is to bring the shinai sharply back to the left shoulder, almost vertically (a lot more like hasso but on the left) and fumikomi on both the snap back to the shoulder and on the nearly straight-forward cut afterwards. Like a nidan waza. The other way I was more recently introduced to is to bring your right foot out in a wide sweep and similarly widely sweep the shinai back over the left shoulder, never really leaving it there or impacting the shoulder and certainly not stamping as you do so, and then bringing it forward as you lunge into fumikomi. I hope I am describing these well. They seem almost like different waza to me. Are there names for these more particular than "katsugi waza"? Just different ways of doing it? (An aside, I was surprised when I asked about the footwork for approach "b" that you do not cut upon bringing the left foot up, as in suriashi, you still do normal fumikomi.)

Thoughts?

I think both situations you describe are equally katsugi-waza. I've seen it done both ways.. I've done it both ways.

It's just variation of timing using the same waza, IMO.
... just like you can see variations in approach to simple kote-men...

my 2 cents.

[turboyoshi]

I don't know how it would be slower or less efficient from one side or the other -- I leave that to others who are more experienced.
I think we have about the same level of experience. I had just recently started experimenting with this and was just sharing how it felt to me. It may be that when you're good, it doesn't matter which side you use. OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen hasso waza attempted in shiai. That's probably the biggest indicator of it's usefulness. :)

[jjcruiser]

OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen hasso waza attempted in shiai. That's probably the biggest indicator of it's usefulness. :)

Just guessing, but perhaps this is why?


(..and that doesn't include the generic situation where you go to katsugi and aite just blasts forward and hits your men)

[turboyoshi]

The point of katsugi waza is not to offer kote, or at least not generally.
Well it's no surprise that I misunderstood how it's used. So katsugi is just a dynamic state where, if the aite is maintaining a strong chudan, you dynamically transition to katsugi to get them move to protect kote or men and then you strike the other target but if they don't react you go right back to chudan or do something new? Staying in a static kamae with katsugi to bait them is a bad idea?

[DigitalDowntown]

At a tournament a few months ago, my opponent did chudan, then jodan, then gedan, and then wakigamae. It was a team match and the result had already been decided, so I guess he was just playing around. Yes, it was confusing.

Any video of this? I think this experience should be shared. ;)

[DigitalDowntown]

I certainly didn't say I'm gung ho to try it. I was just curious if it was ever done.

Our sensei likes to switch into hasso no kamae on occasion. He tells us he does it to cause confusion, well, really to reduce confusion. He's trying to get us to react to a less predictable situation from instinct; to maintain good maai and take advantave of an opponent's suki without stopping to think about the situation, or as he puts it, the "Deer in headlights look."

[verissimus]

Any video of this? I think this experience should be shared. ;)

I wish there was. It was rather interesting set of matches. Our team senpo plays jodan, and his opponent essentially spent half the time running in circles around him to get him dizzy.

[DigitalDowntown]

I wish there was. It was rather interesting set of matches. Our team senpo plays jodan, and his opponent essentially spent half the time running in circles around him to get him dizzy.

Hmm.... creative, I guess. So was dizzy-waza effective against jodan?

[Halcyon]

So katsugi is just a dynamic state where, if the aite is maintaining a strong chudan, you dynamically transition to katsugi to get them move to protect kote or men and then you strike the other target but if they don't react you go right back to chudan or do something new? Staying in a static kamae with katsugi to bait them is a bad idea?
I normally use katsugi when I'm up against an opponent who doesn't like to do aiuchi/debana timing (stepping back, blocking, etc.). I personally think one of the most beautiful things about kendo is when the two opponents go ai-men and one of them wins decisively. Good "harmony" mojo right there. So when people try to off-time me, I find it a little annoying. But it's also perfectly valid and I need to learn how to deal with that. And I find that katsugi waza throws off the timing of these opponents who themselves like to off-time you.

[Neil Gendzwill]

As Paul said, katsugi-waza is one way to change your timing/rhythm. It also is unusual, so it can cause some confusion in your opponent and create an opportunity. However as it opens you up quite nicely, if you use this waza often you are likely to get hit as you transition. The general advice is to use it sparingly.

Usually you shoulder the shinai and then attack almost immediately. If you bring it back and stay there, then you are no longer using katsugi-waza, you are fighting from hasso.

[turboyoshi]

Ah thanks, Neil and Halcyon.
My debana kote is ok but debana men or ai-men I always seem to lose so I'm one of those people who tries to avoid getting into those situations again. So I've been starting to play with kaeshi and katsugi waza. I know I need to figure out why I'm losing at ai-men but for the short term, I'm trying to work around it.

[tango]

sean -- slight sidetrack, but if your debana-men is weak, tackle it head on .. it's something you really need to have in your bag. Eventually, you have to have it.. and trying to develop a short-term work around is just putting off the inevitable. I don't remember much of our last keiko at the atlanta tournament, but as I recall, there's nothing wrong with your physical/speed... it's just figuring out the seme and developing a stronger ability to read/understand the opponent. ... if you can do that, I promise your debana men will get much, much better!

[Halcyon]

sean -- slight sidetrack, but if your debana-men is weak, tackle it head on .. it's something you really need to have in your bag. Eventually, you have to have it.. and trying to develop a short-term work around is just putting off the inevitable.
Halleujah, Amen to that. You really need debana-men as a primary waza. Without it your kendo will always be lacking. I actually made this same point while I was leading practice recently. I know it's frustrating when you try debana-men and you always seem to lose, but if you keep trying and keey trying, one day it will click.

[turboyoshi]

asdfgaf! I know you guys are right but urrrgh. I guess I'll put the twirly waza on the back burner. If you guys have any videos showing clear examples of debana men I can study, please pm me so as not to sidetrack this thread even more.

[jjcruiser]

asdfgaf! I know you guys are right but urrrgh. I guess I'll put the twirly waza on the back burner. If you guys have any videos showing clear examples of debana men I can study, please pm me so as not to sidetrack this thread even more.

I'm interested in this too; particularly in how to apply the pressure so you know men is coming and can cut first instead of just flailing away randomly and hoping you jumped at the right time.

Why don't you start a new thread?

[JSchmidt]

I'm interested in this too; particularly in how to apply the pressure so you know men is coming and can cut first instead of just flailing away randomly and hoping you jumped at the right time.

Why don't you start a new thread?

Start here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AkmUNdj1Go
Body language should be clear enough in this one.