Phorest Kendo Update. (for those interested)

[Phorest]

Well...I don't know where to start. I stuck this in the general forum because it encompasses pretty much all of the forums in one.

I had Kendo tonight...3rd lesson (3rd week as well). It was my first practice with my brand new uniform. So we arrive...and I change into my uniform along with Daisuke and Rikiyo. They take one look at it and say "Why are the sleeves so short?!" Well, when I got the gi the sleeves were down below my wrists...so I took it in to get hemmed. Right now they're barely below the elbow...almost right on it. Daisuke said that it wouldn't be a problem...as long as I didn't flinch when I got hit on the skin above the kote. Fine with me I guess...but its very disappointing after paying money to have the gi hemmed.

So, next Daisuke tells me "I think we try you in bogu now."
My face looked something like this ----> :eek: He then grabs the extra set of bogu he brought along and places it on the floor in front of me. We go through the whole process of putting on, and where each piece goes. WOW DID MY KNEES AND FEET HURT! I'm going to have to practice kneeling down...I don't know how Kendoka can do it for so long.

He then examined my shinai and said "Ahh, you got a new shinai...Lets see...is nice! I like it!" I told him how I had taken it apart, oiled it, and put it back together. He said that the first time he got a shinai he didn't do that and it broke, so I had the right idea.

So, after suiting most of the way up (Tare & Do), we did stretches and warmups. The I put the rest of the bogu on, and we got to work. The first thing was kirikaeshi. I was able to do Kirikaeshi *decently* in sweat pants and a tshirt. But WOW it is a lot different with bogu on! My footwoork went to shit...I mean literally. I was skipping and hopping and it looked like I had no idea what I was doing (probably because I didn't!! :D ). Heres where the fun part started...Daisuke was basically teaching/watching as Rikiyo and I did Kirikaeshi. After each less-than-stellar attempt he would say..."That is not good. One more time." We ended up doing kirikaeshi for probably an hour until I finally (read: miraculously) pulled off a decent round of it.

Now I'm thinking..."GREAT! Break time! Boy am I thirsty!". Heh, no. Now Daisuke walks over and demonstrates Ka(Ki?)karigeiko. Wow...looks hard. He says that I need to do it all while shouting my target in one breath. Wow, looks even harder. So, I try that and fail miserably. First thing is that I can't remember the order of strikes. After getting the order down, its getting the form down with the "Not good...work on XX...Now one more time." method. This took...I don't even remember how long. Basically, a 2 hour practice turned into a 3 hour practice pretty quickly.

At the end though, we talked about Detroit. And...Daisuke told me that I could keep the Bogu!!! I had told him via email that my birthday was a few days ago, so he said the Bogu would be my birthday present. WOOHOO!!! My face was then like this... :D as I thanked him profusely.

So, all in all a very tiring, very educational practice. I must say that I was expecting bogu to be reeeeeally bad, based on descriptions of some forum mebers here...but it wasn't all that terrible. I found that I got used to the Men strikes...and they didn't seem to hurt by the end of the practice.

We then left, and I drove home with LOTS of indigo on my skin and a smile on my face.

[Old Warrior]

Tonight was Day Two in Bogu. I was still disoriented, lost what little form I had in my swing and moved so slow, even I took a nap on the way to my target. But I'm hopeful and stubborn. Now if I can only see a glimmer of light at the endo of the Kendo Tunnel. Who said it would be easy?

[Blah]

whoa, you've got into bogu and did kakarigeiko (don't know how to spell it either) on your third lesson?
I've only recently started using bogu, after about 6 months practice, 2 or 3 lessons/week. Or maybe even longer, my notion of time is really terrible. My first shiai was just now too. You people from the states sure do things differently ;) Or maybe this is just something from my dojo, where noone could afford bogu and we had to wait until our sensei gave us some.

[Phorest]

No, generally people in the states wait 3-6 months as well.
My sempai/sensei is just crazy. Either he sees something magical in me, or he wants someone else to beat with a shinai...I don't know. But its definately a Kendo crash course!

[nodachi]

Keep the bogu!!! Lucky Bastard!!!

Congrats, but I am jealous (and poor).

[Paburo]

yes. keep the bogu. but above all, keep the sensei.

you don't often see such a great enthusiasm for teaching and patience in a sensei anymore (specially not in westerners).

you should be grateful by trying your best and improving a lot.

i owe that too to all my sensei, specially Yoda :D


p.s. didn't you read my sleeve post? i told you to fold instead of cut, the folded part giving you extra pad for those missed kote uchi... tsk tsk you.

[Steve]

Great story! Cool Sensei! In our club we usually give students an estimate of about 6 months +or- before they can wear bogu. Depending on their efforts that could change dramaticly either way.

As far as speed in your bogu....don't worry about it. learn the techniques properly, and your speed will come like magic. Once you can swing for men without having to think about your grip, footwork, distance, etcc.. and can just concentrate on doing the actual strike, you will be much faster.

As an example, think about how fast you can tie your shoes. fast right? now compare that to a toddler just learning how to do it. The kid "KNOWS" what to do and how to do it, but has to think about each step, thus slowing them down. You can do it without even thinking about it. get it?

[Phorest]

Thats a good analogy Steve. Thanks.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm going to be the spoilsport here and say I don't care who you are or how talented you are, putting bogu on after only 3 practices is an error. Any bad habits you have now are going to be compounded and almost impossible to fix. The fellow who is teaching you has good intentions but may be inexperienced at teaching beginners. Your frustration in bogu comes from not having the necessary foundation to your skills (and stamina).

[Phorest]

Neil, I agree with you. And thats the bad part. I'm worried about my basics, but I dont want to say to my teacher..."Hey guy-that-has-been-doing-Kendo-since-he-was-5-in-Japan...I know way more than you, and I think I shouldn't be in bogu just yet!"

I'd just feel wrong saying that. So really, I don't know what to do.

[Phorest]

Heres a little update...

I had Kendo again tonight, and had the chance to ask Daisuke about why I was in bogu so fast. Heres how the conversation went...

Me: "Do most people get to wear the bogu so quickly?" (yes I already knew the answer...but it was a good way to broach the subject)
Him: "Nooo no. In Japan, we are not allowed to wear the bogu until the first half year...sometimes longer."
Me: "Why did I get to wear it so soon?"
Him: "Because we are in United States. When we practice, we always use bogu so we are ready for any tournament. Practicing with no bogu does not help as much."

I then asked about our trip up to Bethany College (that they do every other week) and if I should wear bogu there. He told me that it would be best not to...it would be smarter to stay with the non-bogu beginners...but "I will think about it. We will see when we get there." Also of note: Both of these guys actually teach the beginners at Bethany. They said they will teach the class unless some Sensei from Pittsburgh comes (which isnt very often).

So...I'm not really sure how to interpret his answer.

[iwatekenshi]

How old is your sensei?

[Phorest]

He's a senior in college...so...21 or 22

[iwatekenshi]

I'm not here to burst your bubble and your teacher's good intentions but, Ok that explains it. Here's my gist of it. Any other higher ranking kenshi please help this guy.

I've really enjoyed listening to your stories and appreciate the enthusiasm but he is doing it all wrong. His age proves it.

It might be all fun and exciting but in the long run this will wear out and you will become very frustrated by the way you perform later on since you do not have the basics down. This does not just include physical aspects but mental aspects as well. In all this will stunt your "kendo growth".

Since you just started you are better off watching (mitorigeiko) and doing footwork and suburi. It would be all the more beneficial. Right now I'm still trying to fix my mistakes! Four months after I started I put on my bogu. I regret not doing enough footwork and suburi. I really wish I had! Now I'm paying for it as I get closer to my 4dan testing this year. Bad habits are tough to break! Kendo is no exception.

Honestly kendo is very boring from the start, but that's part of the learning process to understand what kendo is. If you have patience it will show later on and teachers that you come in contact with will see it. They will tell you, "Wow your men is very nice, you must have had a good start. You certainly have your kihon down"

Stick with the formula like all of us had and maybe one day if we ever have the opportunity to meet I hope to be that one praising you on your men that you have perfectly performed upon me.

Best of luck...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by iwatekenshi
[Phorest's teacher turns out to be 21] I'm not here to burst your bubble and your teacher's good intentions but, Ok that explains it.
Also, is he a Japanese import? We see this quite often here. A college-aged sandan might be here for a year or two and he is asked to help teach at the local kendo club. To the local club he looks really good, but back home he was middle of the back row in his dojo and he's never had the opportunity to teach. So he does his best but teaching is a different skill from doing. It's a wierd sort of thing about kendo that any sandan from outside of Japan is likely to be a better teacher than one from in Japan, although he may get his head handed to him in the shiai-jo. It's just a matter of being the big fish in the little pond and being forced to teach.

Phorest, seeing as you've already talked to this guy, why don't you just tell him you don't feel comfortable in bogu yet and would prefer to work on basics for a few months? Frankly, at your level I wouldn't even have you hitting anything yet, it would all be etiquette, footwork and suburi at this point.

[taiwnezboi]

Phorest: Instead of going against what your sensei is telling you, why not just do what he says and practice by yourself without bogu on outside of the dojo?

[nodachi]

I agree with those who say you should train without bogu for about 6 months and depending on your ability that time may decrease. However to compromise, if he has a full speed ahead attitude you might be able to spend half of practice out of bogu and half of practice in bogu. Try and remember what it feels like to do something semi well without bogu and try to replicate that feeling when you are in the bogu.

[Haowen]

I find it incredible how so many kenshi are just so selflessly generous. Quite awesome.

(referring to the free bogu set as a present + the free time investment and instruction).

[Neil Gendzwill]

The generousity is fairly common. Last year, we celebrated the 20th anniversary of our dojo - that's 20 years of volunteer time from my sensei. We haven't given anyone bogu but the club has quite a few older sets that have been donated by various people (including club members who bought new stuff), and we make it available to people to rent for very cheap (just enough to cover repair costs and such).

[Paburo]

i don't agree with the age put down thing going on here. i myself have to be sometimes senpai and teach the begginers in class.
does that mean i am useless just because i'm 22 and inexperienced in teaching? should all sensei be over 50 then?

i do my best, and i think Daisuke-san does too.

phorest is gonna have both classes with bogu on and without it. i don't see why is there such a big deal. he is just gonna learn kendo kihon in a way bit different than most of us did.

aaah, and i also don't agree at all with that 'if you learn something like this first, then you will never change it'. i think that if you have the will and train enough, you can change anything you do in kendo sooner or later.

[Haowen]

Hey Phorest, is your new avatar Gabe the cardboard-tube-samurai from Penny Arcade?

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-01-15

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Paburo
does that mean i am useless just because i'm 22 and inexperienced in teaching?

No, it means you're inexperienced in teaching and will make mistakes similar to the ones that Phorest's instructor is making. Ideally, you should be teaching under the supervision of a more senior instructor. That's not always possible, and I don't have any problem with younger people doing the best they can in the situation. OTOH they should seek all the help they can. They should also understand that if they choose to accelerate the process or otherwise teach in a different manner from how they have been taught, that they have nobody there to tell them why that's a bad idea. Or a good idea, change isn't always bad.

[Phorest]

Haowen: Good Job! Haha. Heres the link to that comic... http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-01-15&res=l

Everyone else: Right now I really don't feel at all comfortable in bogu. I think I'd be better off doing suburi and footwork drills. I really, really like Kendo and I want to do it the right way. I don't want to have to give it up later because I'm so frustrated with bad habits. The thing is, how do I tell this to the guy (really 2 guys) that have been taking entire evenings out of their free time to teach me Kendo? I'd feel rather out of place saying that "I don't think I should be in bogu just yet. I'd rather do the opposite than what you're telling me". This is the only part that I find difficult. So what I'm thinking right now is...this will only last until May. How many bad habits can I pick up between now and then? How hard would it be to go to college and "start over" somewhat? I'm wondering if I should just roll with the flow until Daisuke, Rikiyo and I go our seperate ways at the beginning of the summer?

What is your guys' advice on this?

[Haowen]

If someone gave me a nice set of bogu and told me to eat my shoes, I'd eat my shoes.... but then I'm just a bogu-loving whack job.

[alexpollijr]

Phorest,


Just keep going for the time being. Keep paying enough atention to the basics that are taught along all the practice and you should do fine. Despite the purist faction comments I believe that there's no bad habit that can't be corrected later on, and if you're really careful you may not pick any of them at all.

Just talk with the guys teaching you about this subject every now and then, so that they pay attention to any bad habits you might be developing on the way.


Paburo,

I believe all sensei must have a vast kendo experience before teaching others. That means at least Yondan. However, sometimes you have to do with some sho/ni/san dan leading the practice, but it's nice to have some more experienced teacher to take a look sometimes.

Being 22 and sho/ni dan doesn't make you useless at all. But of course you can't call yourself sensei or sit on the sensei side if you're not yondan at least.

[Blah]

I'll have to disagree.
I think a san-dan, or maybe even a ni-dan, can be better sensei than higher graded kendocas. Experience isn't everything. It helps, but there are other things that influence teaching abilities.

Also, a san-dan with 22 years who has been training since he had strenght enough to hold a shinai is pretty familiar with Kendo, and may be able to pratice it more naturally than a yon-dan who started with 40 or something.
Sometimes, someone nearer your age and born in the same country can communicate better with you also.

You can think about teaching without relating to Kendo as well. In my college the older teachers with more experience and knowledge about certain subjects are not necessarily the ones I learn more from.

[KATSUJIN]

hmm.....wearing bogu so fast.....dont mind me since i am only a nidan and only 20yrs old...but wearing a bogu in such a extremely short time is not so......healthy for u phorest. not that u r lousy or anything but to wear the bogu is something that requires a certain amount of maturity importantly that comes with time....not with training alone...so well i am not sure wat to say anymore at this time....

[Abe Froman]

Read Phorest's story guys.....practice that lasted 3 hours just doing krikaeshi and kakarikeiko? This sensei does not seem like one to rush things. If a sensei can pay close enough attention to one student, so close that he catches and corrects all of his mistakes, I don't see why that one student shouldn't be in bogu. Do I think Phorest should practice out of bogu? OF COURSE! Everyone should be doing that, from lowest kyu to highest dan. But for those 2(3?) hours he is in class and has the sensei's attention, bogu away my friend, bogu away.

I started in bogu after only 3 months, I am in a pretty small class as well. Sensei hounded my arse until most of my bad habits were gone. I'm sure your sensei will do the same.

[Marine_Boy]

Phorest, you've progressed into bogu quickly (3weeks)?:confused:

How is that?

STan

[Marine_Boy]

Phorest, you've progressed into bogu quickly (3weeks)?:confused:

How is that?

STan