Shinken injuries

[Confound]

All my senseis all use shinken, but do people outside Japan (who don't have families in which practicing iai or tameshigiri is traditional), use shinken? It seems really dangerous to me, but perhaps this is inexperience talking. Even using an iaitou, I've taken a few gouges out of the bottom knuckle of my thumb, when doing 4 hon me.

That said, is it generally safe to use shinken? None of my sensei have major injuries. One of them gave himself a little nick, but it barely bled. Do many practitioners of iai use them? I'd rather not, to be honest. I guess that makes me look like a wimp. Have there been any major accidents?

c

[ben]

Don't do iai myself, but there is an urban legend doing the rounds about a (Japanese I think) iaidoka who took out a kidney when he nodo'ed into his side instead of his saya.
o_0
b

[GMason]

Hi

My Sempai, uses a shinken. I think the only injuries he's had is a nick now and again when he is doing noto. Apart from that I haven't heard of any other confirmed stories.

I have obviously heard of all the stories about people performing mai (sp?) and the blade seperating from the Tsuka and killing people, don't know how true they are though. Then there are all the idiots who let Sensei McDojo cut melons on the heads :eek:

[Alex]

In most local iaido federations affiliated with the AJKF, iaido practitioners are required to use a shinken from 4th dan on. Of course it is okay to use a shinken before that, and there is even a Shodan in our dojo who has just spent his life savings on one.

I purchased a shinken about 3 years ago. At first, it was very scary, and my iaido level dropped considerably as my confidence waned. (That's what happens when you keep having visions of slicing your own hand off, or cutting your sensei in half by accident) After about 3 months I started getting my confidence back again, and got back into my old rhythm. Then, I started getting cocky about the whole affair to which my beloved shinken decided to teach me a lesson by knicking me in a careless noto.

:eek:Point taken. Treat the shinken with respect at all times for your own sake and also the people training around you. Now, I could never imagine going back to an iaito. Using a shinken sort of keeps you on edge, and takes iaido to a whole new level. It forces to you to concentrate, and quickly gets rid of bad habits!

Either way, if you plan to keep doing iaido, you will eventually HAVE to get yourself one. :nervous:

[R A Sosnowski]

In North America, the consensus seems to be that training with a Shinken occurs between 3-dan and 5-dan.

I have one on order that I expect in the next month or two (finally :D).

I have observed Dr. A's phenomenon in my Sempai: in switching between an Iaito and a Shinken, the Waza goes down the tubes for awhile until confidence returns. I expect to be no different.

Likewise, the anecdotes about injuries among people that I know are confined to minor mishaps during Noto; some have required a stitch or two. There have also been a few torn sleeves and some upper arm cuts from misplaced back thrusts in Yonhonme of Seitei (ZenKenRen) Iai Gata, but people have done this one with Iaito too.

The other dangerous point in any Kata is at the beginning, Nuketsuke, I am told. With no or improper Saya Biki, it is quite possible to cut through the Saya (it is only wood held together with rice glue) near the Koiguchi where the fingers are holding the Saya.

I have heard stories about people in Japan losing a number of fingers during an improper Nuketsuke with a Shinken. Whether the stories are actually true is immaterial (I have not had the time or the inclinaton to confirm them), since the danger is quite real. It could happen; look into your Saya at the Koiguchi to "read the Koiguchi." See the chisel marks. Turn the Saya upside down and tap the Saya into your hand; those fragments are chisellings from improper Nuketsuke and Noto. The blade is cutting into the wood. If this is happening with an unsharpened Iaito, then with a sharp Shinken, which is designed to cut, the cutting will be more efficient. For this reason, I have ordered an extra Saya for practice with my Shinken - I expect to throw it away after my skill returns; well, on second thought, maybe I'll keep it as a display piece for teaching. As always, YMMV.

My 2 yen.

[Ares2907]

I think Alex summed it up pretty well. Using a shinken certainly gives you a heightened awareness of the bloody great razor you have in your hand. The late Nakakura sensei was apparently of the belief that one should begin to use a shinken as soon as possible (ie after learning how to do nuketsuke and noto properly) to teach one proper respect for the katana. Financial issues aside, I would tend to agree. This assumes that the iaidoka is a serious student and not of the 'thugs on drugs' variety, wanting to swing a long-nasty-pointy-thing.

[kendokamax]

wow

This is interesting.

I never thought they were using the real thing. During the kendo grading I had last time, some iaidoka were practicing their kata in the hall...it was kinda scary...but I thought they werent using real swords....now next time I will know to do 1000x more carefull..scary stuff!

One thing for sure is that i'm against crazy iaido...

[Confound]

I don't feel confident enough to purchase a shinken. Also, from the prices I've seen, there will never be enough money in my bank account. Though I'm financially responsible (to the nth degree, retirement savings and all), $32,000 is far beyond my capacity. That's around the same amount that I've saved for a university degree, and that took 2 years of full time work, plus living on s shoestring!

If it is absolutely required to use a shinken, what do people do if they're in school, or lack the funds to purchase one?

c

[Ares2907]

I currently don't have the money for even a cheap iaito. Nonetheless, I do occasionally get together with a friend and go through kata with his shinken. He has a nice collection of pretty old stuff (oldest one is about 1200 years old - it's sweet).
Anyway, katanana fixation aside, you certainly 'feel' more when doing the kata. Noto and nuketsuke become sooooo much slower (at least to begin with).
I guess if you can make friends with someone who does iai/tameshigiri they may have a spare that they would exchange for your soul ;) You might be able to arrange to practise with them. Using a shinken is where having a blade of the appropriate size for your arms/body becomes reasonably important, so take that into account when looking/asking around.

[Gorget-the-Frog]

I sincerely hope your referring to 32000 yen Confound; otherwise you've been severely misinformed about the cost. Try shopping somewhere other then the top Japanese smiths?

[iwatekenshi]

FYI G the F....
I think she's talking about her salary ;)
But yes they are quite expensive here in Japan, especially from Seki City, Gifu.

[Confound]

No, I was not kidding. I was referring specifically to the shinken sold by Kim Taylor's firm, SDK <insert rest of the name which has long since left my memory>. For you fact checkers, here's a linkSDK shinken page 1 (http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_iaito.htm) . Here's another (http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_shinken.htm)

No offence intended, but I'd rather not buy anything made in China. I like gulags and slave labour just as much as the next guy, but still...

c

[Shunkan]

The nihonto is not an obstacle to the user who displays confidence through his actions. It has no soul but yet is the soul of the user. It leads the user along his path to the understanding of his "self." The nihonto is your "self" reflections. If that is what you seek then cost should not matter, shouldn't it? Injury is not a concern.

[Gorget-the-Frog]

Originally posted by iwatekenshi
But yes they are quite expensive here in Japan, especially from Seki City, Gifu.

Oh, I'm quite aware of the high prices for Shinken commanded by some Japanese smiths. It's simply that one can get a high quality custom blade for $5000 US or less, even while maintaining an irrational blockade of Chinese made pieces. There are places that you can find a forged Japanese blade for around this price point, swordstore.com sells some I believe. As well as there are many excellent American born smiths, such as Howard Clark, to be considered.

I’m not sure whether Confound actually believes that these sword-owning practitioners have spent their life savings on their blades, or simply that anything not from an “A-Grade, Traditional Japanese smith” isn’t good enough for her.

[Confound]

Mr. Gorget-the-Frog,

I simply KNOW that all my money right now is going toward future university bills (for a masters and a doctorate). That will occupy the next five years or so of my life. In those years, there will be no extra money. None. All of it will be going toward university fees. As nature abhors a vacuum, Confound abhors debt. I am not in any at the moment (after finishing a 4 year degree a little over a year ago), and I would rather not be in any at the end of my next two degrees either.

I simply haven't done any research on swordsmiths, as it seemed, from my limited experience, that there aren't any within my price range, which is extremely small at the moment. I'd rather wait for six years, and liesurely do some research on the subject, then make an informed purchase, than buy something immediately, and realize my error long after the fact. However, your mention of Howard Clark is useful. I will look into it.

Perhaps you didn't notice, but this thread was originally about injuries from shinken, and the question of when people begin to use them. I was going to start a thread, at a later date, about affordable shinkens, but this thread seems to have veered in that direction.

Mr. Shunkan,

Your opinions are, I'm sure, very valued among illogical, debt-ridden persons such as yourself. However, those of us who choose to live logically, rationally and fiscally responsibly, put the basic needs of food, shelter and clothing before the 'soul' of a sword. Not many people live like samurai nowadays, and those who do, are generally considered soft in the head.

As for cost being no object, I have clearly stated my reasons. Your high-flown pretentious proclamations will have to wait for someone who will stoop to address. I will not.

c

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Shunkan
Injury is not a concern.
Yeah, you say that now but when you're looking at your thumb lying on the floor you might have a different opinion...

[Gorget-the-Frog]

Originally posted by Confound
I simply KNOW that all my money right now is going toward future university bills (for a masters and a doctorate). That will occupy the next five years or so of my life. In those years, there will be no extra money. None. All of it will be going toward university fees. As nature abhors a vacuum, Confound abhors debt. I am not in any at the moment (after finishing a 4 year degree a little over a year ago), and I would rather not be in any at the end of my next two degrees either.

A very respectable sentiment to be sure, but it does little to change the fact you made an incorrect judgment. Do you always need to defend yourself so fiercely? Your financial situation is irrelevant when the discussion is the cost of a shinken. If the discussion was that you could not afford a sword, I would be loath to argue.

Perhaps you didn't notice, but this thread was originally about injuries from shinken, and the question of when people begin to use them. I was going to start a thread, at a later date, about affordable shinkens, but this thread seems to have veered in that direction.

I certainly did notice. I was merely attempting to inform. It was after all you yourself whom first made mention of the, seemingly unassailable, cost of a sword. It is your thread and you’ve steered. Smart, cynical, curmudgeon or otherwise, sometimes it’s best to let things drop just listen...

Howard Clark’s Katana are available through the Bugei Trading Company (www.bugei.com) in the US. They also sell production blades for a lower price, closer to the one thousand dollar price point. I believe the blades are of Chinese origin, but certainly not slave labor produced. The aforementioned swordstore.com sells “steel Iaito that cut” which you may find of interest. From what I’ve heard these blades tend to be lighter and better suited for iaido then tameshigiri. They’re produced by Japanese trained Chinese smiths, or so I've been told. (If case your curious, I’ve heard the reason they’re called “steel iaito” is because the parent company is Japanese and will not allow them to be referred to as shinken) I personally have no experience with blades from either company yet have heard many, many high opinions of them. There of course are many other options avalible to you when, or if, you decide you want to purchase an shinken.

[Hyaku]

I can offer some help having three blades that I use. A 3.8, 2.7 and a 1.2

(two shown here) http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/Nkage1.html

As to injuries. To me if your not drawing a real blade you haven't even started. You perhaps need to nick yourself a bit. This teaches you to respect what you have in your hands. The fact that it can injure youself let alone other people gives you respect in drawing it.

But of course first of all repetition with a safe copy is necessary. As I not restricted toa manual I often use a saya tsuki bokken to practice Kaewaza for demos. We have rule of not showing pure basics.

For sure you are going to pay more if you are not in Japan and want to order one from here.

But if you are here there are alternatives:

Basicaly there are various payments that you have to be made. The smith, polisher. Then there are all the fittings and binding. Sometimes you will find a polisher that will do all this other work.

Without a doubt its the polisher that costs the money. If you get the blank and find a cheaper polisher it cuts the cost down considerably. A smith or polisher who's grandfather was perhaps famous will have knocked up the price even if he is not so good. so its best to shop around. The middle men make a small fortune out of this. I know a sword appraiser that only has to sell one sword a month to live

I have a friend who worked for a well known polisher. All the work was by machine the final polish by hand. The price was in excess of 15,000 yen per Sun (now more).

I had mine polished for 5000 per sun. I don't think a full polish is necessary either. What is called a Hantogi ( half polish) is more than sufficient. You will still have a reasonable mirror finish

So what do you get fore your money? Basicaly a machine stamped blade made of Satetsu. They are soft and light as hell unless you manage to find a smith that still makes blades for tameshigiri use. Blades are a traditional and have to be registered. Foreign made blades don't get in to Japan.

So its a bit of a monopoly. So saying smiths could not survive by making swords alone. They are limited as to how many they make. The price of one blank is about the same as a young Japanese person starting work would get.

However foreign smiths are able to make blades with a bit more science behind them using amazing metals. My advice is if your not in Japan buy yourselve one of these nice Bainite blades.

My blade cost me money but its not like buying a car. Its something you have for the rest of your life if you treat it with care.

I have never done it but another good idea is to but two saya at first. Even if you don't nick the wood a saya is not going to last forever if you use it a lot.

Hyaku

[Ares2907]

Sorry - want to post a correction on said ancient shinken - it was made in the late 1200's (according to said friend) which would make it about 700 years old give or take . . .

[KhawMengLee]

No offence intended, but I'd rather not buy anything made in China. I like gulags and slave labour just as much as the next guy, but still...

You might as well not wear half the clothes you own then or not live in any house with tatami, eat shitake mushrooms, rice etc...cause most of those goods are produced in China.

Slave labour...hmnnn...I think you give the basic chinese worker less credit than he is due. Check up on why Singapore has banned construction/labour workers from china and you will see that they aren't as oppressed or exploited as the media would have you believe...

sigh...

[Confound]

Meng,
I take pretty good care in buying clothing. I check labels. It is possible to be an informed consumer. I have no intention of supporting things I don't agree with.

c

[Karl]

Hi. Does anyone have an idea how much will it cost me to take kendo lessons here in manila? How much is the tuition fee and how much is the cheapest bogu set?:)

[Nokori 3byo]

It's something you have for the rest of your life if you treat it with care.

Hyaku

I feel the same way about my left hand.

[Niten Ninja]

Hi. Does anyone have an idea how much will it cost me to take kendo lessons here in manila? How much is the tuition fee and how much is the cheapest bogu set?:)

You might want to try starting a new thread in the lounge area, this is an iaido forum, and a thread on sword injuries...

[John Tee]

A very respectable sentiment to be sure, but it does little to change the fact you made an incorrect judgment. Do you always need to defend yourself so fiercely? Your financial situation is irrelevant when the discussion is the cost of a shinken. If the discussion was that you could not afford a sword, I would be loath to argue.



I certainly did notice. I was merely attempting to inform. It was after all you yourself whom first made mention of the, seemingly unassailable, cost of a sword. It is your thread and you’ve steered. Smart, cynical, curmudgeon or otherwise, sometimes it’s best to let things drop just listen...

Howard Clark’s Katana are available through the Bugei Trading Company (www.bugei.com) in the US. They also sell production blades for a lower price, closer to the one thousand dollar price point. I believe the blades are of Chinese origin, but certainly not slave labor produced. The aforementioned swordstore.com sells “steel Iaito that cut” which you may find of interest. From what I’ve heard these blades tend to be lighter and better suited for iaido then tameshigiri. They’re produced by Japanese trained Chinese smiths, or so I've been told. (If case your curious, I’ve heard the reason they’re called “steel iaito” is because the parent company is Japanese and will not allow them to be referred to as shinken) I personally have no experience with blades from either company yet have heard many, many high opinions of them. There of course are many other options avalible to you when, or if, you decide you want to purchase an shinken.

Me thinks all these non member contributions are either some one with multiple personalities or is using the forum to advertize... :cool: :cool:

[tango]

Getting back on topic...

My sensei said that when he was in Japan, he watched a guy put his sword (I think it was shinken, but maybe iaito) right through his arm during the thrust on #4 (Tsuka-ate)...

Ugly. Blood all over the place he said.

[Charles Mahan]

Just a warning for those who might have missed it. The majority of this thread is nearly 3 years old.

[Halcyon]

Another thing to watch out for. If your sword starts sliding out of the saya because you didn't have your thumb on the tsuba for some reason, just let it fall and get out of the way.

A visitor to our dojo a while back was using a shinken for the first time and didn't realize that the habaki was rather loose in the koiguchi. She was going into seiza, the sword started sliding out, she instinctively grabbed for it, then the blade sliced into her palm. Not good.

[Alex_McGrady]

In most local iaido federations affiliated with the AJKF, iaido practitioners are required to use a shinken from 4th dan on...

Hi,

Any chance you can show me a link from any of the iaido federations affiliated with the AJKF that states this. Written in Japanese is not a problem. It seems to contradict the rules I have been told, so seeing the source would really help me.

Thanks in advance.

McGrady

[Charles Mahan]

Alex.... that post you just quoted is more than 3 years old. There's no guarantee the original Alex will ever see your response.

[Galo]

Shinken.

My sensei also told me about trying to train with one as soon as possible, given you can do nukiuchi and noto nicely.
Gives you a greater sense of attention to what you're doing, and the sword seems to come to life when you're not really paying attention and gives you a good reminder.

Mine is a 2"-long scar on my forehead, just above the left eyebrow.
Trust me, I'll never do iaido again with my mind messed with financial problems. :((:

That's why in both Kendo and Iaido one must leave problems out of the dojo before starting the session.

[stephanie dee]

Ok, I havent really read this thread, but have got the gist of it.

I know that this isn't a Shinken, but still... its just plain nasty! I think it says that he doing noto or something and he missed and the blade went right through his arm....

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=50219&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=1

Take a look the other pages in the thread, they have photos of the wound and stuff! Not nice!

Don't mean to put anyone off.... lol!

[Alex_McGrady]

Alex.... that post you just quoted is more than 3 years old. There's no guarantee the original Alex will ever see your response.

Charles,

Thanks for the heads up!!! I did not even notice that. Oh well.... worth a post anyway :nervous:


Thanks,


Alex

[chidokan]

A guy in Southampton severed all the tendons in his hand just before I visited last september. One guy in Japan took off his own scalp with a bad chiburui during his grading. I have stabbed my hand due to being nudged during noto by someone who wanted my attention. Be careful out there folks!
I was recommended to start using shinken because my technique was 'careless', although I'd used one a long time ago it had to go due to money problems. I would not use shinken during a teaching session as I have seen a few hand injuries by teachers (up to 7 dan) doing demonstrations while talking and being careless. Its ok to use during demonstration of technique, but after that I use bokken. Changing between shinken and iaito is not recommended for teachers. One forgetful moment and someone is hurt. Lets face it, if I am demonstrating how to do a move with a student he aint going to listen if I am flashing a shinken about close to him is he....:D

[Alex_McGrady]

A guy in Southampton severed all the tendons in his hand just before I visited last september. One guy in Japan took off his own scalp with a bad chiburui during his grading. I have stabbed my hand due to being nudged during noto by someone who wanted my attention. Be careful out there folks!
I was recommended to start using shinken because my technique was 'careless', although I'd used one a long time ago it had to go due to money problems. I would not use shinken during a teaching session as I have seen a few hand injuries by teachers (up to 7 dan) doing demonstrations while talking and being careless. Its ok to use during demonstration of technique, but after that I use bokken. Changing between shinken and iaito is not recommended for teachers. One forgetful moment and someone is hurt. Lets face it, if I am demonstrating how to do a move with a student he aint going to listen if I am flashing a shinken about close to him is he....:D

Chidokan,

You make a great point and sound very experienced. If there was a dan limit to place on the use of a shinken, what would it be? I have always heard in Japan that at 6th dan you can "consider" it or not. But no where have I seen anything say you must use a shinken at 4th dan. 4th dan sounds still so much like a beginner (sorry to all you 4th dans out there).

Thanks!

Alex

[Niten Ninja]

One guy in Japan took off his own scalp with a bad chiburui during his grading.

How alive was he post-scalping?

[Julian D]

Ok, I havent really read this thread, but have got the gist of it.

I know that this isn't a Shinken, but still... its just plain nasty! I think it says that he doing noto or something and he missed and the blade went right through his arm....

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=50219&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=1

Take a look the other pages in the thread, they have photos of the wound and stuff! Not nice!

Don't mean to put anyone off.... lol!

Hi Stephanie,

I don´t know if you meant "I know that this isn´t a nihonto", but the sword Don Rice was trying to re-sheath was indeed a shinken. So sharp indeed that the damage was not as bad as possible, because the sword just went straight through his arm slicing cleanly, instead of tearing and destroying ligaments and nerves (according to his doctor).

Cheers!

[chidokan]

They brought a rule out last year for ZNKR that anyone going for shodan? (someone find out correct grade but it was low) should use a shinken. The guy neatly scalped himself and it landed on the floor in front of him.... he grabbed it and stuck it back on his head. (Of course he failed due to interrupting his technique and due to lack of composure:grin: ) Major panic in the hall, ambulances etc... My teacher said he would have failed anyway as his technique wasn't very good (obviously!), but he had literally just picked it up, under pressure for grading, and ... there you go, one accident.
Shinken should be used for personal training only, where you cant be distracted, no beginners are in the class aimlessly wandering around (like at taikai)
Grades are difficult to connect with shinken, its more than just skill, its also maturity. My son had shodan at 14, could have passed nidan at 15....would you give someone that age a shinken? I dont think so...

Over 21 minimum, good understanding of the implications, good quality noto and nukitsuke. Also a LOT of 'personal space' awareness. I wouldn't trust anyone below sandan not to hit ME as they are still working on technique. Godan have finished the technical side, and work on spirit and hara. They still make mistakes, but not as many....guy in Southampton was either yondan or godan I think...
For Japanese the sword has a lot more 'scariness' than we over here give it. I think thats the main reason why they can be pushing people into getting shinken earlier sometimes. Its a similar feeling to us watching a teenager play with a loaded gun. Respect the weapon more and you could start earlier. AND DON'T RUSH LEARNING THE TECHNIQUES. This is critical. Sloppiness during early training carries on to a lesser extent as you progress, which is another reason given for picking shinken up early.... personally I dont like my students learning the hard way - ie visiting hospital.

[Charles Mahan]

So what happened to the scalping victim over the long term? How did that injury heal up? How big was the missing chunk? Did he continue training? Enquiring minds want to know.

[Mr. T.]

They brought a rule out last year for ZNKR that anyone going for shodan? (someone find out correct grade but it was low) should use a shinken.

I hope not. I'm not ready for a shinken.

Not sure, but I believe that anyone who wants to do a roku-dan (or higher) exam has to do use a shinken during the exam.

[chidokan]

I also NEED to find out...:grin:

[Maro]

If there's any dojo in Australia allowing large numbers to Practice, I'd like to see their insurance policy.

[Ignatz]

Hi Stephanie,

I don´t know if you meant "I know that this isn´t a nihonto", but the sword Don Rice was trying to re-sheath was indeed a shinken. So sharp indeed that the damage was not as bad as possible, because the sword just went straight through his arm slicing cleanly, instead of tearing and destroying ligaments and nerves (according to his doctor).

Cheers!
Here is what Mr. Rice had to say after:
I think at this time I should reiterate that, I do not have any formal training in this and I have only briefly looked over books and diagrams on the subject , so I was being an idiot for even thinking of doing this sort of thing with a live blade ....period !

He was doing what my teacher called Harry Wood technique and managed to forget that the sharpy part should be facing up.

[Budo Angel]

believe that anyone who wants to do a roku-dan (or higher) exam has to do use a shinken during the exam.

They brought a rule out last year for ZNKR that anyone going for shodan? (someone find out correct grade but it was low) should use a shinken

I think there's clearly some "rumours" going round... I heard the watershed was 4 dan, certainly not shodan (where did that rumous come from ?! :normal: )

I seem to remember, the comment was to get 4 dan an individual should by then be using one, though many have passed 4 dan without a shinken, but that was the view from Japan, whether that is true I don't know (the view) because it was heard third hand.

I would be shocked that someone serious about iai taking 6 dan shinsa had not already got a shinken.

Shodan - that's plain dangerous and irresponsible not to mention putting a big financial barrier to taking up iai. Most people doing 1-2 dan are still feeling the waters as to whether they intend to do this "art" long term, and a shinken is a SERIOUS investment...:shocked:

Good luck finding out criteria for shinken ownership...(besides loadsa money) :grin:

[Solinde]

According to the Swedish rules which can be found on the internet, shinken is required (in Sweden) at gradings for godan and up.

[ScottUK]

A guy in Southampton severed all the tendons in his hand just before I visited last september.Hehe, yeah - I sent him a pic of an armoured gauntlet I was thinking about buying him - he wan't amused... :D

[pgsmith]

A guy in Southampton severed all the tendons in his hand just before I visited last september.
Curiosity time ... I've been trying to figure it out, but I just can't picture it. How in the world did he manage that?

[ScottUK]

Not good to talk about someone on an open forum. He make a mistake, is all. Nice guy - good iai but made a slip...

[pgsmith]

Not good to talk about someone on an open forum. He make a mistake, is all. Nice guy - good iai but made a slip...
Yup.
Not trying to embarrass anyone.

Thanks Scott.

[ScottUK]

Appreciated...

[chidokan]

Anyone can make a mistake...its all part of the learning process. He wont do it again, thats for sure.... No doubt you have had a close shave Scott? It takes absolutely nothing and you get 'bitten'. I was lucky with mine, just missed an artery between my thumb and forefinger. I was actually quite interested and was looking too close for the doctor to stitch it up! I did offer to do it myself but he wouldnt let me...it looked quite interesting to do and I do have a nice cross stitch pattern I could have done ( learnt through repairing kote, hakama etc) That would have been a classy scar eh??!!:laugh: I stuck my hand in my mouth to stop the bleeding until I gopt to the firt aid kit. Apparently I looked like dracula on the way to the hospital!

[ScottUK]

I have had one REAL close shave. Only my amazing skill(?!) and the gods of the white hakama saved me... arterial red and embu white just don't go together. :D

[Aaramis]

Hmm, bit of a late reply here, but as for shinken - a good majority in our dojo use them.

After shodan in Enshin Ryu, we're encouraged (though not required) to purchase a shinken.
As others have mentioned, it tightens up your Iai, and forces you to concentrate harder and to be more aware of what you're doing.

That said, the final say is up to the Sensei whether or not he thinks you're ready for a shinken, and I know of a few shodan who just haven't *felt* ready to upgrade yet (or funds wouldn't allow them).

*shrug*

[John Tee]

What would the more experienced crew on here say were the most dangerous moves/kata/waza that initiate the most 'mistakes' with shinken?Seems noto is coming out on top possibly at the moment.

[ScottUK]

Yup, noto by far.

MJER Iwanami is a scary one with shinken... :)

[Charles Mahan]

I agree, noto is where you are in the most danger. Iwanami is scary true, but so is Kabezoe's noto. A badly botched nukitsuke that splits the saya is also a very dangerous thing.

[Saitama Steve]

Yup, noto by far.

MJER Iwanami is a scary one with shinken... :)

Yeah you really need good thumb and forefinger control on the yokote suji for that one to "hinge" it around as it comes out of the saya. Impossible with my skull crusher iaito eh Scott? ;)

[ScottUK]

Hehe, I have big hands, but the boshi on that pig-sticker o' yours is taking the piss... :)

[Nukitsuke]

In our dojo, there are currently NO people below 3dan with a shinken. One of the 4dans (soon to be 5dan) who also happens to be one of the best practitioners in the dojo said he started with a shinken right after he passed 1dan and is glad he did. He said it makes a big difference in everything he does. He gave me his origianl iaito - it was practically new!

ZNKR does require people testing for 5dan or above to use a shinken during their test. One of the ladies who tested this spring had to borrow the sensei's shinken for about 4 months before her test to get used to it. She recently bought a new smith-made shinken that is quite nice and is using that now.

If I had the money, I'd be practicing with one too. For sure.

[Maro]

I got "Bit" after specifically warning someone else to be careful! :confused2

I was tired after an hour of cutting and went to do one more cut. Drew the blade about 2 inches from the saya and caught my Thumb. Lovely straight cut. More embarrassing than dangerous.

A good lesson.

[ScottUK]

ZNKR does require people testing for 5dan or above to use a shinken during their test.Is it not rokudan?

[Saitama Steve]

Scott,

Unless they have changed the regulations, it's godan.

[Mr. T.]

Scott,

Unless they have changed the regulations, it's godan.

I have to agree with Scott here. I've been told that you can do a godan test with an iaito. Rokudan exam has to be done with a shinken.

I've got class tonight I'll ask the sensei.

[Halcyon]

I third that. I believe it's 6 dan.

[Nukitsuke]

Well, I'm not going to call anyone a liar. My sensei and the regional group of ZNKR sensei's all say that it's 5dan for anyone testing in our region of Japan.
Perhaps it's different within different countries or different associations throughout the world. I'm just repeating what was told to me. Best to do what your sensei says and go with that.

[ScottUK]

Agreed. Then again grades that high are generally done under ZNKR sensei as there ain't enough hachidans in europe... their rules I guess.

I have a grading next year but rest assured I won't need shinken for that...!

[Mr. T.]

Well, I'm not going to call anyone a liar. My sensei and the regional group of ZNKR sensei's all say that it's 5dan for anyone testing in our region of Japan.
Perhaps it's different within different countries or different associations throughout the world. I'm just repeating what was told to me. Best to do what your sensei says and go with that.

I asked my sensei. He told me you need a shinken to do a rokudan exam, not during a godan exam. Maybe the rules in Japan are different. We're supose to do exams according to ZNKR rules and standards. Maybe the sensei in your region have decided to make the godan exam more demanding. I don't know the rules in that area, maybe the ZNKR associated federations have a certain liberty when it comes to using a shinken or iaito during godan exams.

[chidokan]

I'll do a bit more digging and find exactly which organisation the guy was in and what grade he tried for (methinks ZNKR as the story came from a panel member, but maybe not...) I seem to remember it was something to do with a trial rules change in Japan, which they quickly dropped after the accident....

if you want to really make it hard on yourself, use a long boshi. Guaranteed cutting of the fingers....

[Bailemor]

I emember my first BKA seminar and teh people who were trying for Ikkyu were asked if anyone was using shinken and 5 hands went up, scarey

[chidokan]

especially as they were seperated from the arms at the time...:D :D :D

[Webalistic]

And never show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L96MZ0vBE3A) any concern! :rolleyes::D