Dojo Posture and Competition Posture

[shred_lord]

I must say first off that I have not yet attended a shiai, but I have seen plenty of videos. (well a few anyway :) )

One thing I've noticed is that there seems to be a fair amount "bad" posture in competition among the low to mid dan grades. This includes dodging (in a way that destroys posture, not hiraki-ashi (sp?) )

I was in the dojo on Sunday and Mark-Sensei devoted quite a bit of time to footwork and posture. He made a point about the importance of keeping correct posture at all times and how there is a habit of breaking posture while receiving or blocking a cut. He demonstrated how that break will render you weak and unable to perform a effective ouji-waza. Then he demonstrated ouji-waza when he kept correct posture and the counter seemed to flow effortlessly out of the block. He then moved on to Kiai. He was explained the need to save something for after your cut(s) and was demonstrating by doing and kote-men-uchi. As soon as he passed and turned, his opponent for the demonstration performed a shomen with quite a bit of speed. Mark-Sensei, however, had kept great posture and save enough kiai, so that he performed a blindingly fast ouji-do a nearly gutted the poor guy before he knew what happened.

It was a fantastic lesson that "Dojo Posture" is the best posture.

What do you guys think?

And

Is "Competition Posture" a purposeful thing or am I simply seeing someones Ki being destroyed?

[Charlie]

This opens up the old can o' worms abour "textbook" kendo and "shiai" kendo. However, I agree with you on this up front: even if you're going to do more quick, shiai kendo, it should be from a good posture. At most, a slight lean forward, but the posture should remain the same. For one thing, a break in posture will not help you demonstrate ippon.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Might it not just be possible that those people you saw had bad posture generally, be it during shiai or in the dojo? For what it's worth, I'd have no qualms in stating that (with the exception of those people who are, shall we say, 4-5th dan plus and have retired from shiai) in the UK, the people with the best posture and basic movements also take part in a lot of shiai. Those who tend to win in shiai in this country are also people with excellent posture. For example, Gibbo (pretty much everything, bastard!), or D'Artagnan (Lidstone if I'm not mistaken). The whole competition vs dojo thing has been done to death, buried, exhumed, sliced and then burnt - there really is nothing left to discuss.

[shred_lord]

Might it not just be possible that those people you saw had bad posture generally, be it during shiai or in the dojo? For what it's worth, I'd have no qualms in stating that (with the exception of those people who are, shall we say, 4-5th dan plus and have retired from shiai) in the UK, the people with the best posture and basic movements also take part in a lot of shiai. Those who tend to win in shiai in this country are also people with excellent posture. For example, Gibbo (pretty much everything, bastard!), or D'Artagnan (Lidstone if I'm not mistaken). The whole competition vs dojo thing has been done to death, buried, exhumed, sliced and then burnt - there really is nothing left to discuss.

It's entirely possible, as I said, I've not actually been to a shiai (even to observe).

All I really wanted was to share something from a great lession that seemed quite profound with regards to posture (I'm only a newbie after all).

*slinks off muttering*

[Neil Gendzwill]

Is "Competition Posture" a purposeful thing or am I simply seeing someones Ki being destroyed?
It's a purposeful thing for those guys who do it. But as you've observed, it's usually the lower grades who haven't integrated their kendo so much. Higher up, they are still doing things differently in shiai than say a grading, it's just not so obvious.

[The great I AM]

What competitions were you watching?

Its worth bearing in mind that generally lower grades do seem to have posture problems, because they are more afraid of being hit than anything else, so they break posture easily in order to protect themselves. Until they learn that is easier to block and counter attack when they stand up straight they will carry on ducking and diving.

I personally strive to do the same kendo all the time, be it in competition in the dojo or (with a few examples like gyaku do and katate waza) gradings as well.

I also don't believe that there is really any difference between "shiai" or "dojo" kendo or whatever, it is simply "your" kendo. I bet the people who duck and dive in the shiajo do it in the dojo, but it is "their" kendo.

Gibbo

[Neil Gendzwill]

I also don't believe that there is really any difference between "shiai" or "dojo" kendo or whatever, it is simply "your" kendo.

I bet there is even for you. Come up against a slower, older competitor in the shiai-jo? You'll take that quick kote, whereas in the dojo you'd recognise it as cheap and in shinsa the judges wouldn't even register it. Got a guy hovering near the line who's a half-point down? You'll bounce him out, and if you don't your coach will have something to say about it I'd bet. You might not duck and bend but the mindset and the goals are different.

[The great I AM]

I bet there is even for you. Come up against a slower, older competitor in the shiai-jo? You'll take that quick kote, whereas in the dojo you'd recognise it as cheap and in shinsa the judges wouldn't even register it. Got a guy hovering near the line who's a half-point down? You'll bounce him out, and if you don't your coach will have something to say about it I'd bet. You might not duck and bend but the mindset and the goals are different.

Hmmm, well you've sort of got me there on the kote, but depending on what I was trying to practise in the dojo I might go for it, and depending on the person in the shiaijo, I might not go for it, depends on the situation really, for instance if they are expecting it....then I'm not going anywhere near it! Plus my kote ain't so hot anyway, but I digress....

As for the the hansoku point, if it were a team match and the point were important then yes I would, because there would be 4 other people relying on me, but if it wasn't so important that I took that ippon, then I would be seeking something a little more satisfying, and thats the gods honest truth! And if it was an individual match, I would want to win it with a proper ippon, not something which says "I can't actually beat you with kendo".

Although the goals and mindset are to some extent different, I would still be trying to doing my best kendo (note I didn't say grading or dojo kendo, just "kendo" kendo) and win (I know there are many people out there who would simply go for the win). Last year I won a competition where one of the judges said he was dissappointed with the winning point (he didn't give it), and that made me think about it and change my attitude, after all, I already knew that good straight kendo can do just as well as ducking and dodging. But that is just me, many people are very different, there are plenty that simply value the win, but really those are the people that will give up kendo when they stop winning and don't understand why.

Gibbo

[Neil Gendzwill]

As a national team member, I daresay you are under more pressure than most to just produce the win. Especially in team. If you draw the strong guy and the team needs you to hold a draw and not risk a loss by going for the win, you'll do it. Or you'd better. And you may not be happy with that personally but...

I'm just saying, once you're in the shiai-jo you've got some rules that dictate a few things. If you're out there to win for your own personal satisfaction then yeah, play it like it's shinsa. But if you're out there to win, period, then you make some changes and it doesn't necessarily mean you start to play windshield-wiper kendo, just that you take advantage of everything you can.

[bullet08]

As a national team member, I daresay you are under more pressure than most to just produce the win. Especially in team. If you draw the strong guy and the team needs you to hold a draw and not risk a loss by going for the win, you'll do it. Or you'd better. And you may not be happy with that personally but...

I'm just saying, once you're in the shiai-jo you've got some rules that dictate a few things. If you're out there to win for your own personal satisfaction then yeah, play it like it's shinsa. But if you're out there to win, period, then you make some changes and it doesn't necessarily mean you start to play windshield-wiper kendo, just that you take advantage of everything you can.

more and more i think about.. life is all about self interest.. even when we are doing something right for right reason, it's done because it gives us certain satisfaction in some weird and twisted way.. again self interest.. oh well.. i guess i was off topic

pete

[shred_lord]

.. i guess i was off topic

Don't worry, I regret putting the topic up anyway. ;)

Gibbo and Neil:

Yes, they where low dan matches. (I said this)

So it's a flinch reaction only? How long does it take to get over this? I would have thought that by the time you reached the point you're entering competition that you're used to getting hit. I wouldn't know as I'm a beginner.

Hmm, I'm 25 in one and a half hours.

[The great I AM]

So it's a flinch reaction only? How long does it take to get over this? I would have thought that by the time you reached the point you're entering competition that you're used to getting hit. I wouldn't know as I'm a beginner.

Hmm, I'm 25 in one and a half hours.

Happy birthday!

It took me ages to get over it,　like only from the end of last year was I able to hold my nerve to not be waving my shinai everytime someone came a centimtre closer, but to me it made all the difference.

To Neil : I do see and totally understand your point, but I will still go out there and do my own kendo, trying not to duck and weave (as I'm finally learning), but you are right, and it is a burden sometimes, but in that situation, like I said before, you have a slightly greater responsiblity than doing straight forward "correct" kendo, but given the choice and chance, I would still be doing what I do in the dojo. Afterall, its what I practise all the time, so there is little point in changing to something I'm unfamiliar with in the shiajo. I'd rather use my kensen and ashisabaki to block than a duck of the head. Note I said rather there, old habits die dam hard sometimes.... but teaching people has ironed alot of it out, not all of it, but a lot. Ho hum. I take your point though, and would say that its certainly easier to type this stuff...

Gibbo

Edited : dam, had a few beers and the spellings gone right out of the window....keiko tonight was ace!

[stuartwilson]

The purpose of Kendo is ... (I assume you know the rest).
Should I compromise <insert whatever> ?
Answer: No. See 1.

[Anjin-san]

keiko tonight was ace!

:( last exam tomorrow :(

[Barnakey]

I would want to win it with a proper ippon, not something which says "I can't actually beat you with kendo".


Wether its ippon or hansoku, every point counts in Kendo. If someone does very tricky waza and manages to score on you while you just stand there doing "straight" Kendo, wether you consider ippon or not he still managed to break your defenses. There is a way to beat shiai kendo with straight kendo but you have to know about shiai kendo before you start trying to do that.

[The great I AM]

Wether its ippon or hansoku, every point counts in Kendo. If someone does very tricky waza and manages to score on you while you just stand there doing "straight" Kendo, wether you consider ippon or not he still managed to break your defenses. There is a way to beat shiai kendo with straight kendo but you have to know about shiai kendo before you start trying to do that.

That was my attitude before, every point counts, but over time and with my own experiences in shiai I've come to realise that, at least for me, most of the time its not like that anymore, especially when I know that my straighter kendo is stronger now than my bendy kendo used to be. And "very tricky waza", as you put it, can still be done perfectly well enough with correct posture.

Heh, bendy kendo.

[Gerald Audette]

It took me ages to get over it <snip>... I will still go out there and do my own kendo, trying not to duck and weave </snip> ...
I'm finding that is the trick. I can often see attacks coming from more junior clubmates, and it is easier to just move my head slightly to nulify the point. Its frustrating to see myself do that rather than say a nuki- or suriagae-waza. It also is not proper kendo, and something that I'm working hard to remove from my kendo as we all look at one another and say to ourselves "hey that worked, I'll do that next time". Lead by example I guess.

But I do see the difference between what may be done in the situation of a team shiai versus shinsa or even keiko in one's dojo. Circumstances often dictate how we approach a match.

Just my $0.02 :)

[Charlie]

Shred, please note that when I said it opens an old can of worms, I didn't say that can should NOT be opened. No such thing as a stupid topic, in my opinion. Well, except "can I learn kendo from teh internet!!!11?" or the like.

[jmarsten]

That was my attitude before, every point counts, but over time and with my own experiences in shiai I've come to realise that, at least for me, most of the time its not like that anymore, especially when I know that my straighter kendo is stronger now than my bendy kendo used to be. And "very tricky waza", as you put it, can still be done perfectly well enough with correct posture.

Heh, bendy kendo.
Tricky waza, where does it come from. My theory is this is your kenjutsu roots were killing was the end to the means. Secret waza of the school, why else. Kendo the perfect match is to not hit. Drive the opponent out of bounds with your kiseme. This to me is the evolution from kenjutsu to kendo and a person who's kendo that obtains this kind of kiseme is the highest level. Why do the successful hachidan candidates only practice the perfect men. Not a bunch of tricky waza, that is for undeveloped kendo.

[The great I AM]

Tricky waza, where does it come from. My theory is this is your kenjutsu roots were killing was the end to the means. Secret waza of the school, why else. Kendo the perfect match is to not hit. Drive the opponent out of bounds with your kiseme. This to me is the evolution from kenjutsu to kendo and a person who's kendo that obtains this kind of kiseme is the highest level. Why do the successful hachidan candidates only practice the perfect men. Not a bunch of tricky waza, that is for undeveloped kendo.

I've only ever managed to do that once, in all the shiai I have ever been in, but I certainly is satisfying to know that the opponent has gone out for a hansoku without you even raising your shinai. I try to practise this (by making my opponent back away and back away until *clunk* they step back into the wall behind them), but as jmarsten also says, its the highest level of kendo, so well beyond me for the most part at the mo! I'll stick with my uramakiotoshigyakudou....oops, did I just write that...

[Gerald Audette]

TWhy do the successful hachidan candidates only practice the perfect men. Not a bunch of tricky waza, that is for undeveloped kendo.
How true! I've noticed that when I play sensei, that is what they are looking for me to do. I spent a heck of a long keiko with a sensei before my exam last year just doing men (and again). Only after I got a good, proper men did sensei move on to other things with me (mainly wiping the floor with my sorry, tired butt ;) )

[Dave Fowler]

How true! I've noticed that when I play sensei, that is what they are looking for me to do. I spent a heck of a long keiko with a sensei before my exam last year just doing men (and again). Only after I got a good, proper men did sensei move on to other things with me (mainly wiping the floor with my sorry, tired butt ;) )

Been there done that :redface:

[Neil Gendzwill]

Got a closetfull of t-shirts.

[The great I AM]

Got a closetfull of t-shirts.

I was once backed onto a piano by my then-sensei's kiseme. Its true! My ass can't play a c minor to save its (or my) life!

[Gerald Audette]

Got a closetfull of t-shirts.
And I seem to recall the Neil gave me several of those t-shirts. Through very strong tariatari-men! :ko:

[noryuken]

my only question is this:
how do you swing a sword with your head tilted sideways? you can't.
whoever breaks posture first usually ends up losing the match. it's a tell tell sign you are weaker and scared.

[JSchmidt]

my only question is this:
how do you swing a sword with your head tilted sideways? you can't.


Huh?.

Why not?

Jakob

[noryuken]

try it. better yet, do it in front of your sensei.

[Kingofmyrrh]

try it. better yet, do it in front of your sensei.
OK. Next..?

[samurai999]

try it. better yet, do it in front of your sensei.

Soo.... Whats your point... ya in practice, you practice straight.. But isn't shiai kendo a bit different? There are so many people who do shiai out there with funny kendo. (ie off-timers, no tenouchi, no kikentai-ichi, etc) Usually the people I know with "straight kendo" always complain about how they can't play these guys. i'm not advocating going to kachi-kendo but usually most of those tricky waza come out by practicing "nice, clean kendo". If you start out crooked, you end up crooked.. Like this "kurukuru gyaku dou" (and no that is not a reference to misterkurukuru haha) that I saw one of our senseis do at a tournament.

Tim

[samurai999]

oops.. I meant towards the end that the straight stuff lets you learn more advanced waza like that kurukuru gyaku dou that sensei did.

Tim

[samurai999]

Actually was thinking about it just now and well.. Say if you lost in tournament to a person who did "funny kendo" are you just gonna lay down and say "well his kendo form was horrible" and claim a moral victory? Try to "understand his kendo"? No matter how you put it (or no matter how it happens), a loss is a loss in a taikai and you will always try to dissect why you lost (unless you just don't care) and how not to lose the next time.

My sensei (the one in P/A) always told us basically, that it is a given that we don't go into a taikai to lose. But if you do, try to get something out of it so that it is not a total loss.

Tim

[noryuken]

If you start out crooked, you end up crooked..

this is my point.

all i'm saying is, if your posture is out of line, so is your swing. i don't think anybody can perform suriage waza with their heads tilted sideways or any other waza for that matter. keeping your head perfectly still allows you to counter at any time.

[natehill13]

Shred, please note that when I said it opens an old can of worms, I didn't say that can should NOT be opened. No such thing as a stupid topic, in my opinion. Well, except "can I learn kendo from teh internet!!!11?" or the like.

Actually Charlie I do learn kendo on the internet. I come here for English translations of what my senseis are trying to tell me. My grasp of Japanese is rudimentary to say the least

[misterkurukuru]

this is my point.

i don't think anybody can perform suriage waza with their heads tilted sideways or any other waza for that matter. keeping your head perfectly still allows you to counter at any time.

uhh, nope...being good lets you counter at anytime. more then straightness, i think distance and knowing what your body can do are the keys.

"funky" kendo cant get past a good kamae, thats what i teach the hot shot kids that get a shinny new shodan from santa shinsa!

peoplez needz to bez more flexablez with thier mindz, during SHIAI knowing and understanding the other person's style is much better then pooh poohing it just becuase its not the style that you like.

kurukuru gyaku do huh....hmmm...i must look into that!

[The great I AM]

peoplez needz to bez more flexablez with thier mindz, during SHIAI knowing and understanding the other person's style is much better then pooh poohing it just becuase its not the style that you like.

Well apart from the "z" overkill, this is exactly the point! Rather then a dojo posture and a shiai posture, a flexible and adaptable mind is the effective thing in shiai. There is no reason to actually change your physical kendo to start doing things you would never do in a million years in the dojo, if you have this kind approach.

[samurai999]

I guess that is what i was trying to get at but never got there... :P

Like misterkurukuru said, you have to understand the other persons style.. Otherwise, how can you formulate any plan of attack to defeat them? if you have an open mind, once you identify weaknesses and strengths, you can modify your "style" to adjust. Remember that most of the time (in almost any situation), if you get the opponent off their game, thats usually 50% of the match right there..

Tim

[noryuken]

uhh, nope...being good lets you counter at anytime. more then straightness, i think distance and knowing what your body can do are the keys.

"funky" kendo cant get past a good kamae, thats what i teach the hot shot kids that get a shinny new shodan from santa shinsa!

peoplez needz to bez more flexablez with thier mindz, during SHIAI knowing and understanding the other person's style is much better then pooh poohing it just becuase its not the style that you like.

kurukuru gyaku do huh....hmmm...i must look into that!

your better if you can do it straighter. anything struck sideways is just plain ugly, and it's ugly kendo. if you can't agree with that then your blind. go on and do things sideways, kendo should be graceful. not herky jerky.

[samurai999]

Lets put it this way.. In which part of kendo are you talking about? Kihon kendo? Shiai kendo? In Shinsa, you have your form looked at not how well you shiai. In Shiai, the main concentration point is a good yuukodatotsu, was it not?

In a tournament, do you think that shimpan care if your kendo is graceful or not? I have seen people with absolutely straight "graceful" kendo getting beaten in the first round 2-0 by people who have the funkiest kendo i have ever seen. Why? People who reside in the fact that straight kendo is the only way are really tense and rigid. They can't move like people who are more loose. They might play the kendo that you deem as ugly, but they still do well at shiai. If you are talking about shinsa, then that is a totally different animal.. Remember that it is a "battle" out there.

And please don't assume that just because people don't think the way you do that they are "blind" and wrong.

Tim

[noryuken]

Lets put it this way.. In which part of kendo are you talking about? Kihon kendo? Shiai kendo? In Shinsa, you have your form looked at not how well you shiai. In Shiai, the main concentration point is a good yuukodatotsu, was it not?

In a tournament, do you think that shimpan care if your kendo is graceful or not? I have seen people with absolutely straight "graceful" kendo getting beaten in the first round 2-0 by people who have the funkiest kendo i have ever seen. Why? People who reside in the fact that straight kendo is the only way are really tense and rigid. They can't move like people who are more loose. They might play the kendo that you deem as ugly, but they still do well at shiai. If you are talking about shinsa, then that is a totally different animal.. Remember that it is a "battle" out there.

And please don't assume that just because people don't think the way you do that they are "blind" and wrong.

Tim

i apologize for calling anyone blind and if i have offended. my real gripe is that we are actually slowly starting to accept "funky" kendo as being OK. this is what's scary to me. i don't think you can score a point the same way in japan at the 8 dan taikai. not that any of us will become hachidans, but who knows.

[misterkurukuru]

If someone that enters a 8 dan shiai cant hit straight, then they have problems :wink:

[noryuken]

uhh, nope...being good lets you counter at anytime. more then straightness, i think distance and knowing what your body can do are the keys.

being good starts with posture, at least that's what i think

[samurai999]

yes i believe that good shiai kendo STARTS with good kihon, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you will be the victor if you use straight kendo. Also just because you got beaten by a off timing, no fumikomi ashi (slide?), no kiai, baseball bat swinging person doesn't mean that you have to go off spouting that kendo is being ruined by these people who play like that. You have to figure out how to get around that yourself with your own kendo.. (geez i have to follow that myself....)

my $0.02(US),
Tim

[Hongsermeier]

Straight Kendo....a pet peve of mine. I don't mind if your Kendo is sideways or not. Having said that, when you try to taiatari someone (myself) you should do it correctly. Mr Kurukuru, missed you last Sunday. There were some interesting matches. Of the two I was in both Godan sensei tried to taiatari me with their arms well over their heads and off balance. I'm sure you can guess the results. One got a hansoku for droping his shinai as he hit the floor. The other was luck to hold on to his as he also hit the floor. There are just sometimes when you should have proper form and other times where you can be a little more flexable.

[JSchmidt]

being good starts with posture, at least that's what i think

IMHO, it starts with footwork, which is why some people can get away with 'bendy kendo'.

Jakob

[samurai999]

Why didn't i just say what JSchmidt just said because i agree with him completely.. I'm that sick?? ugh... Stupid friggin allergies. I can't even go outside without sneezing the hell out of my lungs and my eyes turning puffy and red.

Tim

[misterkurukuru]

I like it!!! i dont do bendy kendo, i just got fancy foot work!

Hey brad! Good to hear the new job hasnt kept you out of kendo! you and the wife should make it down to the dojo when you two have a chance.

After the last time, i have just lost respect for that shiai.

[Hongsermeier]

I'm planning on coming to Venice tonight. What time does practice start?

[Charlie]

Actually Charlie I do learn kendo on the internet. I come here for English translations of what my senseis are trying to tell me. My grasp of Japanese is rudimentary to say the least

Then you are teh suxors!

Just kidding. Nate, this is not the same as "learning kendo from the internet," as in, learning kendo completely from a book or internet withOUT a sensei or other practice partners.

[misterkurukuru]

it starts at 7:30

[Kendo-Militia]

I'm planning on coming to Venice tonight. What time does practice start?

Hongsermeier, where the hell have you been hiding? Bring your wife down too.

[Inouye02]

i have bendy kendo at times, i am the master at the diving kote ...hahahah

[Kingofmyrrh]

i apologize for calling anyone blind and if i have offended. my real gripe is that we are actually slowly starting to accept "funky" kendo as being OK. this is what's scary to me. i don't think you can score a point the same way in japan at the 8 dan taikai. not that any of us will become hachidans, but who knows.
Yeah, but those same hachidans will happily score 'bendy' points for high school or university matches. Let's trust their judgement!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yeah, but those same hachidans will happily score 'bendy' points for high school or university matches. Let's trust their judgement!
Same hachidans will completely ignore those bendy points scored on them in keiko, or apply a beatdown when they see them. All depends on what your goals are.

[samurai999]

Well as for bendy kendo, watch the reel on top of this kendo dojo website.

http://www.geocities.com/eastbaykenyukai/

Look for the guy who looks like hes almost sideways going for the Jodan guys kote. That guy is a 5dan (wait.. 6dan now i think)..

Tim

[Kendo-Militia]

Especially when I knocking you over. Your body gets bendy. Trust me, HAHAHAHAH

[Inouye02]

Especially when I knocking you over. Your body gets bendy. Trust me, HAHAHAHAHthats the real deal too...

[MrUnWaki]

posture should be the same regardless. In america when we train, the training is for shiai and to enhance our skills, there is not difference between shiai and training posture

[samurai999]

posture should be the same regardless. In america when we train, the training is for shiai and to enhance our skills, there is not difference between shiai and training posture

again.. I IMPLORE you to check out the website I posted. I live in america too and where I come from, we start and TRAIN with kihon then we have "shiai style" kendo as well. That much is understood. Where do you practice mrunwaki?

Tim

[nikolaj]

we don't really make a difference between shiai or keiko-style. (except for the fact that we work really small in shiai of course)
My sensei told me that most belgian kendokas were in fact known for not using "bendy" kendo.

[hyuna]

I think there is some language ambiguity.

Beginners do not do things the way sensei does them, so in that sense there is "beginner kendo" and "sensei kendo" (sense #1). But beginners are not supposed to be doing it differently, they just cannot help it since they are beginners. So, in that way there is no different "beginner kendo" (sense #2).

Similarly, there is "shiai kendo" and "not-shiai kendo" in the sense that people behave differently in shiai. That is sense #1. But, is there such a thing as "shiai kendo" in sense #2? Is that kind of kendo legitimate, correct, and something to aspire towards in shiai?

I think what I have gathered from the past postings of various sensei on this topic in this forum is that there is one correct kendo, but is not something that can be reduced to "bendy" or "not bendy." Rather, it is appropriate to what is going on, so if it needs to be bendy, it is bendy. If it needs to be straight, then it is straight. I am not sure if this is right, I am still thinking about it.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Same hachidans will completely ignore those bendy points scored on them in keiko, or apply a beatdown when they see them. All depends on what your goals are.
I agree. Nevertheless, shiai rules are designed such that only 'good' strikes will score, and when they're interpreted by 8th dans to mean that bendy strikes are valid strikes, then that's all I need to know.
They might well not acknowledge them in keiko, but it doesn't make it any less valid to me. It's just that it's a waste of an opportunity - when you have someone like that in front of you it's time to do some research on your straight forward seme, or at least it is for me. When I was a beginner I was often told that a good shiai opportunity was when your opponent turns around after striking without maintaining his concentration - you can easily score men on inexperienced people like this - and to be honest, with a lot of eighth dans immediately dropping their guard and returning to their starting position after a single strike sequence in keiko, it wouldn't be difficult to do then either. Would it be rude? Yes. Would it be inappropriate to the situation? Yes. Would the eighth dan ignore it? Most likely. Is it any less valid a point when it comes to shiai because of this? I think not.

[KevinF]

...to be honest, with a lot of eighth dans immediately dropping their guard and returning to their starting position after a single strike sequence in keiko, it wouldn't be difficult to do then either. Would it be rude? Yes. Would it be inappropriate to the situation? Yes. Would the eighth dan ignore it? Most likely. Is it any less valid a point when it comes to shiai because of this? I think not.

Unless they were of extreme old age, this would not occur in a shiai - and I wonder why a 8-dan would even enter into a shiai with a beginner if he were not capable anymore of massive smack-down - I've never seen it occur.

The situation you describe could only occur in keiko - do it too much, and the keiko will end sooner than you expected, not because you are winning, but because you should take advantage of the opportunity to practice with a 8-dan from kamae, not try to trick points out of them. If you can't do that, the 8-dan will determine that you will gain nothing from the keiko, and usually end it.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Unless they were of extreme old age, this would not occur in a shiai - and I wonder why a 8-dan would even enter into a shiai with a beginner if he were not capable anymore of massive smack-down - I've never seen it occur.

The situation you describe could only occur in keiko - do it too much, and the keiko will end sooner than you expected, not because you are winning, but because you should take advantage of the opportunity to practice with a 8-dan from kamae, not try to trick points out of them. If you can't do that, the 8-dan will determine that you will gain nothing from the keiko, and usually end it.
That's exactly what I was saying - perhaps you hadn't read the rest of the thread?