Gedan

[Akai Bushi]

I was recently watching my sensei doing jigeiko and noticed an occasional use of gedan.

Are there any advantages of using gedan in shiai?
What is its main purposes?

[WolfofMibu]

i think there are many advantages to gedan. if your opponent is in chudan he wont be able to get into you because he would imaple himself . My master uses gedan every once and awhile and it is very hard to get around it.a lot of times i run in to get a men and he dodges and hits my men . i just have to get as fast as him.

[Andou]

i think there are many advantages to gedan. if your opponent is in chudan he wont be able to get into you because he would imaple himself . My master uses gedan every once and awhile and it is very hard to get around it.a lot of times i run in to get a men and he dodges and hits my men . i just have to get as fast as him.

Impale himself...like...his leg? Maybe I'm thinking of holding the gedan a little higher...But to Akai Bushi: gedan is usually used to sort of suprise your opponent with your intent. I got this next part from a website: While it may look like a defensive posture, it is an attack posture able to deflect an opponents attack and create striking opportunities. I also think it says gedan is a transition position to do attacks like a tsuki.

[WolfofMibu]

yeah, what i meant was that you would almost stab yourself in the leg when you charge into gedan. that is if they stay in that postition.

[jackchen]

yeah, what i meant was that you would almost stab yourself in the leg when you charge into gedan. that is if they stay in that postition.
Aren't legs illegal targets?

[kendokamax]

Aren't legs illegal targets?

yes i believe so.......

[stuartwilson]

I am not a sensei, but here's what I undersand about gedan.

In gedan, the kensen should be quite low. The advantage is that you can cut upward very powerfully. I hesitate to say it's the "opposite of Jodan," but in comparison, you can see that if the kensen is too high in gedan, you loose the power of the kamae, just as if you were half way in between Chudan and Jodan.

In Kendo, from Gedan you can parry with enough strength to knock your opponent's shinai from his hands, or at least move it way off center. The big disadvantage is that once you adopt gedan, you're pretty much stuck with it unless you back up because close up, moving between gedan and chudan leaves you open.

Don't adopt gedan unless you have some idea of what you can do after you parry with an upward cut. If you don't make an offensive move after the upward parry, you'll probably wind up receiving men.

[Andou]

Don't adopt gedan unless you have some idea of what you can do after you parry with an upward cut. If you don't make an offensive move after the upward parry, you'll probably wind up receiving men.

I'd be scared to do it in the first place...just leaving men that open for even a split second would make me very uncomfortable. Maybe I just need some more experience with it though.

[mystic_kendoka]

if you suddenly go into gedan, your opponent will think of it as an opening (if he's a noob) and go for men, but since you're ready to counter, he'll fall into your 'trap'...

guess its a sorta mukamae...

[mad_god]

if you suddenly go into gedan, your opponent will think of it as an opening (if he's a noob) and go for men, but since you're ready to counter, he'll fall into your 'trap'...

guess its a sorta mukamae...

There is no reason for "suddendly" to into gedan.
It can work even you use it since the beginning of the match.
Besides, the opponent will become very confuse.

MG

[NorthernKendoka]

Don't they use gedan in isshu shiai?

[tantadi]

I don't know if it is my imagination, but going gedan or jodan seems to draw some people closer, it is like they use the shinai in chudan as a maai measurement, and they step closer without being aware.

[mystic_kendoka]

Besides, the opponent will become very confuse.

that's the point, to confuse your opponent...

[Tato]

I'm not a sensei eiter, but I use Gedan often, both in jigeiko and shai, in my case it's clearly a strong atack kamae, as I can do stong seme on the adversary, pressing them into making a movement, it allows me to break their distance calculation, to hide my shinai under theirs, can go fast to men from there, and allows some suriage waza.

Also, as your shinai is not on the way, it's difficult to receive hara, maki or otoshi waza.

Cons, leaves your men and tsuki wide open. If the other guy knows what he is doing it's a risk.

I don't use it all the time, but sometimes when I try to enter and score a point.

[mystic_kendoka]

Tato.. when doing gedan, how low do you put your shinai?
just interested..

about waist level, knee level, or all the way to ankle level?

[Gerald Audette]

Don't they use gedan in isshu shiai?
Naginata use all the kamae, including gedan. The tricky part is if the kendoka tries gedan in isshyu-jiai and the naginataka is in chudan....Big opening for tsuki (talking from experience ;) Better to take jodan if your comfortable with it and pressure them. Or better yet, pressure with a strong chudan. The key is distance. If you stay at their kamae distance, you'll be pretty ineffectual and they'll pick you off.


Aren't legs illegal targets?
They are not a target in kendo, but are legal for naginata - called sune. The fun part is doing a back sune strike...it confuses them and keeps them honest :)

[mystic_kendoka]

what's a back sune? hitting the calf?

[Gerald Audette]

Sorry for the confusion. Backup-sune from taraitari. So for example a men-taraitari-sune. In naginata it would be men-sune and back out, but we can go from the body crash out and instead of backup men/kote/do do a sune. Trying a sune from kamae is tough ... can be done but its tough seeing as it is not a usual kendo target.

HTH

[Neil Gendzwill]

Katate-sune worked for me from kamae - mind you it really was a back sune at the time because the aite was in a bad position and I ended up hitting the back of his calf. Hope he's got over the limp by now...

Back on-topic gedan is one of those tricky things that might work once against somebody, or multiple times if they are inexperienced. Mostly, you just lose men.

[Gerald Audette]

Hope he's got over the limp by now...
I'll ask him ;)


Back on-topic gedan is one of those tricky things that might work once against somebody, or multiple times if they are inexperienced. Mostly, you just lose men.
I agree. But I guess you could use it to make the person think during keiko. Change things up. I seem to recall a waza where you go from a slightly lower kamae than chudan - not gedan, but with a flat shinai - and use it to suriage-kote. Neil, any thoughts? That kamae might work a little better than gedan.

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's actually what I'm talking about. Real gedan is just not too workable at all, once they get over the surprise. Playing a flat or slightly lower than flat kamae is more workable. If they come for kote, you can come up with a very strong suriage-men response. But if they go for men, you're going to be that much later on defense so really it falls into that tricky-works-once-maybe kind of category like katsugi-waza.

[JByrd]

A low kamae also makes one vulnerable to tsuki.

[KenShi_JoB]

That's actually what I'm talking about. Real gedan is just not too workable at all, once they get over the surprise. Playing a flat or slightly lower than flat kamae is more workable. If they come for kote, you can come up with a very strong suriage-men response. But if they go for men, you're going to be that much later on defense so really it falls into that tricky-works-once-maybe kind of category like katsugi-waza.

I saw the vdo of dai nippon teikoku kendo kata(prewar nihon kendo kata). The gedan are just slightly below horrizontal. :)

[Halcyon]

These days I've been using more of a flatter kamae (not really gedan, but certainly lower than the textbook definition of chudan) to apply seme and tunnel through some opponents' comfort zones. For some reason that I can't quite explain myself, I find it more effective in certain occasions.

The flatter kamae also comes in handy in those rare occasions that I attempt tsuki. As I apply seme, I lower my kensen to almost horizontal, which will usually entice the opponent to lower his kensen a tiny bit. That opens up the tsuki target just a tad.

I also use a flatter kamae (even a semi gedan) with beginners who have a very, very strong kamae or have a habit of tapping my shinai constantly without a real sense of trying to get center. I find that when you deprive them of that crutch of being able to muscle aside or tap your shinai, they get a bit confused and flustered.

[tantadi]

I don't want to start a new thread about this question, since it is also about unorthodox kamae: How about "half-jodan"; arms slightly higher than usual, lift the kensen to almost vertical? Then go for men when the opponent comes? (lift the arms some more to get your kote out of the way)

[Charlie]

I don't want to start a new thread about this question, since it is also about unorthodox kamae: How about "half-jodan"; arms slightly higher than usual, lift the kensen to almost vertical? Then go for men when the opponent comes? (lift the arms some more to get your kote out of the way)

Wouldn't you get your kote picked off that way? Good opening for doh also?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Wouldn't you get your kote picked off that way? Good opening for doh also?
Yep, I think so, too. I think it would also be a tiresome/tense kamae to maintain and you would be slow to attack out of it as a result.

[Halcyon]

How about "half-jodan"; arms slightly higher than usual, lift the kensen to almost vertical? Then go for men when the opponent comes? (lift the arms some more to get your kote out of the way)

To lift the kensen to almost vertical, you need to tighten your grip. That means you can't use tenouchi properly when you need to because your grip is tense to begin with. Having said that, when someone does try to hit your kote in jodan, some jodan players do raise their hands up (rather than the left hand back) to achieve kote-nuki men. But the kensen doesn't necessarily go up in that case.

[nikolaj]

I allmost never use another kamae other than chudan...
I might use jodan once in a while, but definitly not often.

[Akai Bushi]

What is the best way to fight against gedan?
(I always feel like Im going to get poked in the shins or wacked between my legs.)
also,

What if someone uses a half way between chudan and gedan. What is the best way to fight against a person like that?

[nikolaj]

What if someone uses a half way between chudan and gedan. What is the best way to fight against a person like that?
this situation happens to me a ot with a particular sensei...
what I usally do is follow his gedan till my shinai points more or less at his kotes.

[Neil Gendzwill]

What is the best way to fight against gedan?
Hit their men.

What if someone uses a half way between chudan and gedan. What is the best way to fight against a person like that?
Hit their men.

[nikolaj]

the solution to all of life's questions...
hit their men.

[Tato]

Tato.. when doing gedan, how low do you put your shinai?
just interested..

about waist level, knee level, or all the way to ankle level?

Between waist and knee, lower than that you loose to much time when doing a cut, higher (waist) is in fact a variation of Chudan.

D.

[Tato]

That's actually what I'm talking about. Real gedan is just not too workable at all, once they get over the surprise. Playing a flat or slightly lower than flat kamae is more workable. If they come for kote, you can come up with a very strong suriage-men response. But if they go for men, you're going to be that much later on defense so really it falls into that tricky-works-once-maybe kind of category like katsugi-waza.

Completly agree, that's why I believe that you can use it only on as agresive stance, if you give away initiative and the other guy is experienced, you will recive a men.

[Akai Bushi]

If you're in gedan and if they go for men wouldn't a quick dou work?

[nikolaj]

If you're in gedan and if they go for men wouldn't a quick dou work?
a quick do as a response for men will allways work if you're fast enough....

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you're in gedan and if they go for men wouldn't a quick dou work?
No way you'd hit doh fast enough from gedan. What you'll find from gedan (real gedan) is that with shinai, the aite will hit your men before you can do pretty much anything, all else being equal. Doh is about the slowest response you could make anyways.

[Paburo]

i think gedan no kamae, as is, knee level, is pretty much useless in kendo, unless you're faster and more skilful than your opponent and like to show off.

the lowest seigan(belly button level), on the other hand, i find really useful for shortening distance, for seme, and getting inside the itto maai of another chudan kenshi.

against gedan, i think best waza is chiisai men, tsuki or fast kote/otoshi men


tato, i'd like to see you pulling that gedan on me tomorrow:D :D

[KhawMengLee]

I don't know if it is my imagination, but going gedan or jodan seems to draw some people closer, it is like they use the shinai in chudan as a maai measurement, and they step closer without being aware.

Yep. If they are experienced they'll know this...but less experienced ppl tend to not realise this. Especially from chudan if you step in and open into gedan they don't realise you can strike their men.

[mad_god]

That's actually what I'm talking about. Real gedan is just not too workable at all, once they get over the surprise. Playing a flat or slightly lower than flat kamae is more workable. If they come for kote, you can come up with a very strong suriage-men response. But if they go for men, you're going to be that much later on defense so really it falls into that tricky-works-once-maybe kind of category like katsugi-waza.

It will depend on how you will manage the maai and also if your kensen is strong enough to stop when opponent comes to you Men. And suriage-Men is very effective when opponent comes to your Men.
I don't understand your meaning of "real" gedan. Is there "real" chuudan or joudan? Kamae must be adapted according your physical condition and the opponent's skill.

MAD GOD

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't understand your meaning of "real" gedan.
Real gedan as in the kensen is about knee height or even lower. As opposed to what some people think of as gedan which is really somewhere between chudan and gedan.

[KenShi_JoB]

Real gedan as in the kensen is about knee height or even lower. As opposed to what some people think of as gedan which is really somewhere between chudan and gedan.

Many old vdo show that gedan are much higher in the old days. I think gedan below knee height is the influence of Shindo Munen Ryu. Nakayama Hakudo is the exponent of SMR Kenjutsu, and this ryu assume gedan that way (as far as I know). I think I readed it from KW that 2/3 of kyoshi rank during pre-war were his students. I think that's why standard ZNKR gedan become that way. I think there is no real gedan, only standardize gedan. We can't say that many great kendo teacher in the past, for example, Takano sasaburo, Mochida Seiji, didn't do real gedan.

[tantadi]

I also use a flatter kamae (even a semi gedan) with beginners who have a very, very strong kamae or have a habit of tapping my shinai constantly without a real sense of trying to get center. I find that when you deprive them of that crutch of being able to muscle aside or tap your shinai, they get a bit confused and flustered.
It not only works on beginners..some of my instructors love to "harai me away" when I try to keep a strong kamae (or more like holding on like my life depends on it).. if I go flatter and/or softer that doesn't work as well. This has lead me to do some thinking about what the meaning of kamae is.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think there is no real gedan, only standardize gedan.
Yeesh. If you prefer those semantics. The only gedan we practise in kendo is the standard one you see in kata #3, which is blade straight up and down, knee height. There is no other gedan I've ever seen taught. So yeah, it's the standard one. Now many people have found through experimentation that you can create some opportunity through a lower kensen. But the point I was trying to make that seems to be lost is that if you use the "standard" gedan, it won't be effective unless the aite is so weak that you could have beat them easily using chudan anyways. If you use a really low chudan, it might work once but after that again you're better off in normal chudan. In my opinion, in case I didn't make that perfectly clear.

[KenShi_JoB]

The higher gedan from 1960s kata can be easily see in the download section of this website. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

The higher gedan from 1960s kata can be easily see in the download section of this website. :)
Newsflash - it's not the 60s.

[KenShi_JoB]

Newsflash - it's not the 60s.

:eek: OOPs, sorry. it's 1958.

[mad_god]

Yeesh. If you prefer those semantics. The only gedan we practise in kendo is the standard one you see in kata #3, which is blade straight up and down, knee height. There is no other gedan I've ever seen taught. So yeah, it's the standard one. Now many people have found through experimentation that you can create some opportunity through a lower kensen. But the point I was trying to make that seems to be lost is that if you use the "standard" gedan, it won't be effective unless the aite is so weak that you could have beat them easily using chudan anyways. If you use a really low chudan, it might work once but after that again you're better off in normal chudan. In my opinion, in case I didn't make that perfectly clear.

It's true that in nowadays kendo the chances to use effectivelly the gedan during the whole fighting time is lower, considering that "mukae-tsuki" is not considered a valid point in normal shiais, and to make a proper suriage is necessary decades of hard practice.
This make me think about how nowadays kendo killed many interesting kamaes and wazas that existed in the old times. Even Jodan or Nito, or even katate waza, few people practice them as basically the current shiai rules don't help to use fully their potential.

MG

[kanyil]

More than any threat to a valid strike area, I personally find that much of the threat from gedan arises from the threat of tamago-tsuki. Which results in some hesitation on behalf of male kenshis from taking that tobikomi-men. Is that a valid concern, or am I just thinking too much?

The senseis and some sempais are usually too quick to tamago-tsuki me, as they are fast enough to have begun the suriage by the time I reach them. But my classmates....now that's a different matter. :eek:

The trouble is, you have no way of knowing how competent they are at gedan until you take that first leap.

[ISSAC RU]

Any good gedan video that is avalible for DL ?

[KenShi_JoB]

It's true that in nowadays kendo the chances to use effectivelly the gedan during the whole fighting time is lower, considering that "mukae-tsuki" is not considered a valid point in normal shiais, and to make a proper suriage is necessary decades of hard practice.
This make me think about how nowadays kendo killed many interesting kamaes and wazas that existed in the old times. Even Jodan or Nito, or even katate waza, few people practice them as basically the current shiai rules don't help to use fully their potential.

MG

Why do you think present rules killed Jodan, Nito, and katate waza? I think those can be use to score a valid point. IMHO you can't use gedan all the time (IOW gedan player) but you can see it still be used as a part of seme.

[Paburo]

More than any threat to a valid strike area, I personally find that much of the threat from gedan arises from the threat of tamago-tsuki. Which results in some hesitation on behalf of male kenshis from taking that tobikomi-men. Is that a valid concern, or am I just thinking too much?

The senseis and some sempais are usually too quick to tamago-tsuki me, as they are fast enough to have begun the suriage by the time I reach them. But my classmates....now that's a different matter. :eek:

The trouble is, you have no way of knowing how competent they are at gedan until you take that first leap.

i often think its dangerous also, to attack tobikomi men to an opponent in gedan from toma. for the safety of my precious family jewels and what not :D
what i do is close distance with otoshi or low seigan seme and from chikai maai its a sure win if your opponent is still in gedan and youre in seigan. in that situation theres no escape from a chiisai men or morote tsuki :D