Sorry but this just ticks me off!!!

[KhawMengLee]

Bush Calls Human Rights Report 'Absurd'

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday dismissed a human rights report as "absurd" for its harsh criticism of U.S. treatment of terrorist suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, saying the allegations were made by prisoners "who hate America."

I'd hate America too if I was tortured and imprisoned without trial for over 2 years.

These incidents in Iraq stretch beyond Abu Ghraib. Civilians have submitted reports such as this and recently, Afghanistan had similar cases of prisoner abuse.

Take the leader of the largest Sunni Muslim political group Mohsen Abdul Hamid. They stormed his house. Hog tied him and had a soldier put his foot on the guy's neck for 20 minutes while they ransacked the house( and this guy was an ex-interim Prime Minister). Confiscated money, files, a computer and detained his sons and bodyguards.

Later they released him saying "oh, sorry...we made a mistake."



On North Korea

On another foreign policy issue, Bush shot back at critics who suggest his diplomatic approach to North Korea is allowing the communist regime to expand its nuclear program. "If diplomacy is the wrong approach, I guess that means military. That's how I view it as either diplomacy or military. I am for the diplomacy approach," he said.

Yeeeeeeeeeeees...then why the invasion of Iraq? Is not War the result of the collapse of all diplomatic solutions?



On Justice
Bush said he expressed concerns with Russian President Vladimir Putin about legal proceedings against former oil tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky. Once the richest man in Russia, Khodorkovsky was convicted Tuesday of fraud and tax evasion and sentenced to nine years in prison following a trail widely denounced as politically motivated.

"Here, you're innocent until proven guilty and it appeared to us, at least people in my administration, that it looked like he had been judged guilty prior to having a fair trial," Bush said. "We're watching the ongoing case."


And thus we imprison thousands of terror suspects for years without trial, subjecting them to torture and humiliation...nice...freedom and democrazy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050531/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush
************************************************** ****
Arrrrgh! The man is such a hypocryte!!! He's like evil Senator Roark from Sin City where he says:

"Power doesn't come from a gun. POWER comes outta lying and lying BIG and getting the whole damn WORLD to play ALONG with you. Once you got everyone AGREEING with what they know in their HEARTS ain't TRUE, you got them TRAPPED. YOU'RE THE BOSS"

[joekc6nlx]

Now that you have it off your chest about Bush, I'm waiting to hear what you have to say about the so-called "Peoples Democratic Republic of China", one of the biggest human-rights violators in the world. They don't even let their citizens have internet access to the rest of the world for fear they'll pick up "tainted information and thoughts".

Yeah, well, it's easy to sit back in your easy chair and criticize, and in the U.S., you're free to criticize. What happens to those people in China who criticize the government? Same for the Peoples Democratic Republic of Korea, who kidnaps people from the South to do propaganda for them.

I guess if I wanted to, I could find fault with every government and every country, and every person on this earth. Would it make me better? It's good that you put this in the flames forum, because it sure doesn't have a thing to do with kendo.

[JHusch]

Now that you have it off your chest about Bush, I'm waiting to hear what you have to say about the so-called "Peoples Democratic Republic of China", one of the biggest human-rights violators in the world. They don't even let their citizens have internet access to the rest of the world for fear they'll pick up "tainted information and thoughts".

Yeah, well, it's easy to sit back in your easy chair and criticize, and in the U.S., you're free to criticize. What happens to those people in China who criticize the government? Same for the Peoples Democratic Republic of Korea, who kidnaps people from the South to do propaganda for them.

I guess if I wanted to, I could find fault with every government and every country, and every person on this earth. Would it make me better? It's good that you put this in the flames forum, because it sure doesn't have a thing to do with kendo.


Amen Joe...last time I checked this was Kendo World. Not Political World. Its nice to have open discussions here, but lets keep the politics and religion off these boards. IMHO all it does is cause fights.

[h2o]

Now that you have it off your chest about Bush, I'm waiting to hear what you have to say about the so-called "Peoples Democratic Republic of China", one of the biggest human-rights violators in the world. They don't even let their citizens have internet access to the rest of the world for fear they'll pick up "tainted information and thoughts".

Yeah, well, it's easy to sit back in your easy chair and criticize, and in the U.S., you're free to criticize. What happens to those people in China who criticize the government? Same for the Peoples Democratic Republic of Korea, who kidnaps people from the South to do propaganda for them.

I guess if I wanted to, I could find fault with every government and every country, and every person on this earth. Would it make me better? It's good that you put this in the flames forum, because it sure doesn't have a thing to do with kendo.

I for myself have never understood how the fault of one nation makes it legal for another country to act like bastard... I mean pointing and saying "they did it first, and worse!" is quite childish.
And since the US is the de-facto only superpower today you will just have to deal with the fact that the world is looking...

[nikolaj]

myeah, I'm not too sure what reactions you're gonna get here, and I'm not sure if this is the right forum for such an arguement.
I do however, believe that situations like Abu Ghraib have nothing to do with political stance, nowone in their right mind could justify these situations.

[JHusch]

Hmm.... The only thing I have to say about this "Prisoner abuse" thing is this. These guys get fed 3 times a day, given shelter, given clothes, kept warm, given copies of the Koran (sp).... and while there may have been some prisoner abuse (aside from the dumbasses stacking prisioners up). The US are the bad guys.....

How about Nick Berg...how about anyone who wants to comment on how the US is so bad take a look at the terrorists who are cutting peoples heads off, kidnapping....

Just remember that...people who want to forget about that and forget about what happend on 9-11 make me sick.

[KhawMengLee]

They don't even let their citizens have internet access to the rest of the world for fear they'll pick up "tainted information and thoughts".


Where did you hear this? I'm chatting to a mate of mine in Shanghai right now on MSN. Yes, she's Shanghainese. Yes, she's a Chinese citizen.

China does monitor internet traffic but so does Singapore, who will fine you and send you to jail for downloading porn. Tho' China tries to moniter the internet they realise they can't 100% monitor it.

A client of mine, from Beijing, studied in the US. She likes Americans and loves America but at the same time she's very dedicated to her homeland. She works in Beijing now and as far as I can see isn't in jail for being exposed to the "taint' of the west.

************************************************** *******
I agree that Tianamen was horrible but at the same time I also think that democrasy needs to be nurtured not dumped on the population. China will see a change in its politics...but it takes time.

China has its need for social reform. That is a matter of internal action. The US had its own civil rights violations on the road to democrasy.

The thing here that cheesed me off is Bush's hypocrisy. Does China go around the world invading a nation for 'human rights' then tortures people? Does anyone else go around telling other nation's that what they do in court is wrong and at the same time detain people without trial.

How about telling the world about the dangers of lifting China's arms trade ban. Why because it will destabilize the region. Right, and then he goes and sells a bunch of jet fighters to Pakistan who isn't the best of friends with its neighbor India. And when India complains of the arms imbalance he says, "oh, you can buy some too."

Here's another great one...Bush says countries need to be globalized. they need to free their markets to outside competition. But when China starts producing cheaper textiles that starts to hurt the US industries he puts a tariff on chinese textiles. And its not just with China, its Australia and the beef and wheat industry...he placed a tariff on that too because US farmers were being put out of business. etc etc

As I said...I don't hate Americans or America. I just hate hypocrites.

[Berugijin]

Hmm.... The only thing I have to say about this "Prisoner abuse" thing is this. These guys get fed 3 times a day, given shelter, given clothes, kept warm, given copies of the Koran (sp).... and while there may have been some prisoner abuse (aside from the dumbasses stacking prisioners up). The US are the bad guys.....

'Some' prisoner abuse? Way to go on marginalizing that! 'Some' women get raped too, but most don't, so why should we care?

Being fed, getting shelter&clothes and being warm is part of your human rights, but they're not ALL your human rights.


How about Nick Berg...how about anyone who wants to comment on how the US is so bad take a look at the terrorists who are cutting peoples heads off, kidnapping....

Kidnapping...? Like locking people up for years without charging them...? If you want to go after terrorists only to be one yourself, I'd rather do nothing at all.


Just remember that...people who want to forget about that and forget about what happend on 9-11 make me sick.

People who blatantly ignore the rights of their fellow human beings make me sick. Wait, let me be more precise, you make me sick. Even though I think that you're not worth to be called a human, you still have your human rights, and I will not lock you up without charging you even if I could.

Pot... kettle... black... I hope you get me point. I don't want to generalize but you're part of that group of stereotypical narrow-minded Americans that the whole world dislikes (to avoid using the word 'hates').

[KhawMengLee]

Hmm.... The only thing I have to say about this "Prisoner abuse" thing is this. These guys get fed 3 times a day, given shelter, given clothes, kept warm, given copies of the Koran (sp).... and while there may have been some prisoner abuse (aside from the dumbasses stacking prisioners up). The US are the bad guys.....
[\QUOTE]
Er...that sounds like the crap the Nazis tried to sell about Auchwitz. Sending out postcards showing smiling prisoners eating full meals having nice beds etc etc

The Pentagon has sanctioned certain methods to obtain information. This includes sleep deprivation, stress positions etc. In other words torture is used.

"Some prisoner abuse"? Hello, a civilian shot and then thrown off a bridge by US troops. Or cases now being addressed in Afghanistan. etc etc is not "some" prisoner abuse.

As for the US being bad guys. When you base a war on morality and humanity, and you abuse this edict of conduct you are held to higher accord.

A thief can spend a lifetime doing dirty deeds and be exonorated with just one good deed. A King can spend a lifetime in noble achievement but just one wrong act will damn him for eternity. This is because everyone expects nothing good from a thief but they expect the world from a King.


[QUOTE]How about Nick Berg...how about anyone who wants to comment on how the US is so bad take a look at the terrorists who are cutting peoples heads off, kidnapping....



Kill a man. Kill 10 men. You are still a murderer.

As H20 said its childish to point at another when you do wrong and say they are worse.

Terrorists are expected to be scum. The US troops were expected to be liberators.


Just remember that...people who want to forget about that and forget about what happend on 9-11 make me sick.

You know...the world wept for the US after 9-11.

[h2o]

Hmm.... The only thing I have to say about this "Prisoner abuse" thing is this. These guys get fed 3 times a day, given shelter, given clothes, kept warm, given copies of the Koran (sp).... and while there may have been some prisoner abuse (aside from the dumbasses stacking prisioners up). The US are the bad guys.....Well, the problem is not how they are treated. I believe the problem is that there are a lot of people sitting there who still have not been prosecuted or told why the f-ck they got there in the first place.



How about Nick Berg...how about anyone who wants to comment on how the US is so bad take a look at the terrorists who are cutting peoples heads off, kidnapping....
See my last post about one evil deed not making another evil deed legal.



Just remember that...people who want to forget about that and forget about what happend on 9-11 make me sick.
People who don't try to understand WHY that shit happen make me worried... People are not born to be terrorists. They become terrorists for a reason. Does that make it right? No ofcourse not, but it's worth to think about. I mean, if people walk the other way when I enter a room, perhaps I should sit down and check if I smell bad, and use a deoderant, instead of shooting those evil bastards for not looking at me.:rolleyes:

[JHusch]

'Some' prisoner abuse? Way to go on marginalizing that! 'Some' women get raped too, but most don't, so why should we care?

Being fed, getting shelter&clothes and being warm is part of your human rights, but they're not ALL your human rights.



Kidnapping...? Like locking people up for years without charging them...? If you want to go after terrorists only to be one yourself, I'd rather do nothing at all.



People who blatantly ignore the rights of their fellow human beings make me sick. Wait, let me be more precise, you make me sick. Even though I think that you're not worth to be called a human, you still have your human rights, and I will not lock you up without charging you even if I could.

Pot... kettle... black... I hope you get me point. I don't want to generalize but you're part of that group of stereotypical narrow-minded Americans that the whole world dislikes (to avoid using the word 'hates').


Glad you missed the entire point of the post. Also glad I make you sick.... whatever...

Where are the human rights when our servicemen and woman are killed like Nick Berg. What about the contractors when they get killed? Bet you dont have a answer for that since you pretty much sidesteped that enitre arguement.

And I am far from narrow minded, I know the difference between right and wrong. And I am NOT saying that what has happened in Iraq with the treatment of POW's has been great, but it is FAR better then how our POW's are treated.

[Berugijin]

Glad you missed the entire point of the post. Also glad I make you sick.... whatever...

I'm not glad YOU missed the entire point of my post and those two others quoting your original post...


Where are the human rights when our servicemen and woman are killed like Nick Berg. What about the contractors when they get killed? Bet you dont have a answer for that since you pretty much sidesteped that enitre arguement.

There is no argument. If you don't see how wrong you are than I really pitty you and those around you. Now enough with the ad hominem attacks. To put it in one little line you can comprehend: violating terrorists human rights makes you just as bad as them.


And I am far from narrow minded, I know the difference between right and wrong. And I am NOT saying that what has happened in Iraq with the treatment of POW's has been great, but it is FAR better then how our POW's are treated.

You don't know the difference between right or wrong... An eye for an eye eh? It doesn't matter how the treatment of POW's is 'far better', the truth is that it's not good enough, and that's all that matters.

After all, why should you behave human when others don't?

Ladies and gentleman, that's the excuse of JHusch and the American goverment to simply give up on their 'humanity' and all those years of civilization.

[joekc6nlx]

As prisoners of war, they do not have to be prosecuted. They are prisoners of war, they are incarcerated under the terms of the Geneva Convention. They are given food, water, shelter, access to religious leaders and materials. If they were criminals, then they would be prosecuted under the 4th Amendment of the United States Constitution, the same as the citizens of the United States are tried for criminal cases. As we used to say in the Navy, you don't have the "big picture", you only see your little area of it.

As for China invading another country???? Maybe you would like to ask the Dalai Lama about what China has done to his country? Or China's continual claim that Taiwan is not a separate country, for which reason Taiwan was removed from the U.N. Security Council and the PRC was placed there.

I'm not talking about downloading internet porn, that's irrelevant. The article about China restricting internet access to the outside world was from the Associated Press. Granted, they don't always have the right facts, just like Newsweek, but they're one hell of a lot more objective than Al-Jezeerah, TASS/PRAVDA, and a slew of other so-called "news agencies".

You can continue to point fingers at what you call hypocrites, and I really don't much care if you criticize the President of this country, or JHusch, or me. I criticize lots of politicians, but that doesn't mean they're wrong and I'm right. They aren't perfect, we aren't perfect, you aren't perfect. The only thing that we can do is keep working toward perfection. Hmmm, seems to me I've read that somewhere, maybe in one of my kendo books...........

[JHusch]

Well, the problem is not how they are treated. I believe the problem is that there are a lot of people sitting there who still have not been prosecuted or told why the f-ck they got there in the first place.


See my last post about one evil deed not making another evil deed legal.


People who don't try to understand WHY that shit happen make me worried... People are not born to be terrorists. They become terrorists for a reason. Does that make it right? No ofcourse not, but it's worth to think about. I mean, if people walk the other way when I enter a room, perhaps I should sit down and check if I smell bad, and use a deoderant, instead of shooting those evil bastards for not looking at me.:rolleyes:

It was not my intent to say One Evil deed makes another legal. The intent was to say that there is a lower standard that is accepted on what the terrorists are doing and that is wrong.

I kinda understand what you are saying in your last paragraph. Yes we should try and findout what makes things happen. But the sad thing is that most of these terrorists are taught to hate from a early age, they are only told about the Evils of America and the free world without ever discovering what is and what is not true on their own.

[Berugijin]

I'm not talking about downloading internet porn, that's irrelevant. The article about China restricting internet access to the outside world was from the Associated Press. Granted, they don't always have the right facts, just like Newsweek, but they're one hell of a lot more objective than Al-Jezeerah, TASS/PRAVDA, and a slew of other so-called "news agencies".


For your information, Al-Jazeerah is actually quite objective, have you ever watched it? In fact it's being criticized in Muslim countries for giving too much airtime to Israelis... The Pravda ("the truth") was once indeed full of communist propaganda, but that was a LONG time ago. Today it's an ordinary quality newspaper.

[JHusch]

I'm not glad YOU missed the entire point of my post and those two others quoting your original post...



There is no argument. If you don't see how wrong you are than I really pitty you and those around you. Now enough with the ad hominem attacks. To put it in one little line you can comprehend: violating terrorists human rights makes you just as bad as them.



You don't know the difference between right or wrong... An eye for an eye eh? It doesn't matter how the treatment of POW's is 'far better', the truth is that it's not good enough, and that's all that matters.

After all, why should you behave human when others don't?

Ladies and gentleman, that's the excuse of JHusch and the American goverment to simply give up on their 'humanity' and all those years of civilization.


Wow..all this from a 18 year old who seems to know everything. May we bask in your greatness Oh wise one.

The treatment isnt good enough for whom? You oh wise one? Incompairson between the US POW's and the Iraqi POW's we treat ours far better then ours are treated.

You speak of civilization when these terrorists are taking the lives of innocent people everyday. Where is the civilization in that.

And you know when it comes down to it...talk all the crap about me and my country that you want. It really doesnt bother me. Just remember if your country ever needs help...who are the frist ones you turn to for aid ;)

[KhawMengLee]

Where are the human rights when our servicemen and woman are killed like Nick Berg. What about the contractors when they get killed? Bet you dont have a answer for that since you pretty much sidesteped that enitre arguement.

The difference here is that the US are seen as invaders by quite a large scope of the Iraqi population. The situation is not a simple "oh, lets oust Saddam and the Iraqis will love us."

Lets say a during the 1940's a sizable chunk of the US population become Fascist. They are clamped down by the government but Nazi Germany invades and occupies the US to aid them.

So the US fascists are in charge. With the Nazis as the watchdogs, don't you think that the rest of the population would rise strike back in any way possible? What would you do to someone who has invaded your home and killed your loved ones?

Tell me how you would react to a member of Al Qaida walking down your street after 9-11? The way you feel about members of Al Qaida is what some in Iraq see the US as. They don't see you as liberators and those that do are turned when things like Abu Ghraib happen.

Every person you torture. Kill. humiliate. multiplies the hate a thousand fold because it is their country, their home you have violated.

As I said before, if you claim to be a saviour or a saint you have to act like one.

[Berugijin]

Wow..all this from a 18 year old who seems to know everything. May we bask in your greatness Oh wise one.

The treatment isnt good enough for whom? You oh wise one? Incompairson between the US POW's and the Iraqi POW's we treat ours far better then ours are treated.

You speak of civilization when these terrorists are taking the lives of innocent people everyday. Where is the civilization in that.

And you know when it comes down to it...talk all the crap about me and my country that you want. It really doesnt bother me. Just remember if your country ever needs help...who are the frist ones you turn to for aid ;)

Wow, this coming from a 28 year old? Well, that's American 'edumacation' for you. Look kiddo, let me spell it out one last time for you:

Even though terrorists ignore human rights, that gives you no excuse to violate their human rights.

If you can't comprehend that please remove yourself from the gene pool. Please do more keiko since you really need to become a better person.

[JHusch]

Wow, this coming from a 28 year old? Well, that's American 'edumacation' for you. Look kiddo, let me spell it out one last time for you:

Even though terrorists ignore human rights, that gives you no excuse to violate their human rights.

If you can't comprehend that please remove yourself from the gene pool. Please do more keiko since you really need to become a better person.

Kiddo....man...you need to become a better person yourself. You must really be running out of material.

I suggest you take a look at this website Beruginin and really pay attention to what is being said here:

http://www.fdnylodd.com/BloodofHeroes.html

And as for your bolded comment......

Bullshit

Can you name any of the good work our sevicemen have done in Iraq? Its not the best way to sell newspapers so I doubt you have. We have done more for that country in the past few months then have been done for them in a long time.

And dont start to confuse Kendo with politics.....that is not what this forum is for.

[Berugijin]

Even though terrorists ignore human rights, that gives you no excuse to violate their human rights.


And as for your bolded comment......

Bullshit


Fine. I give up.

[KhawMengLee]

As prisoners of war, they do not have to be prosecuted. They are prisoners of war, they are incarcerated under the terms of the Geneva Convention. They are given food, water, shelter, access to religious leaders and materials. If they were criminals, then they would be prosecuted under the 4th Amendment of the United States Constitution, the same as the citizens of the United States are tried for criminal cases. As we used to say in the Navy, you don't have the "big picture", you only see your little area of it.

Thats just trying to equate "Law" to justice. eg. the law states a rapist gets 10 years for rape. Is that justice...no...but its the law. Human rights is about justice.

POWs after the war is over get to go home. Yes, it didn't happen in Vietnam etc but remember the US is operating under the tenet of Freedom and morality. So why aren't these people going home?




As for China invading another country???? Maybe you would like to ask the Dalai Lama about what China has done to his country? Or China's continual claim that Taiwan is not a separate country, for which reason Taiwan was removed from the U.N. Security Council and the PRC was placed there.

I could argue many things about why Taiwan or Tibet is part of Chinese Territory. Buuuuuut that was not my point. I said that we don't invade another country, tell the world its for Freedom, then torture people.


I'm not talking about downloading internet porn, that's irrelevant. The article about China restricting internet access to the outside world was from the Associated Press. Granted, they don't always have the right facts, just like Newsweek, but they're one hell of a lot more objective than Al-Jezeerah, TASS/PRAVDA, and a slew of other so-called "news agencies".

No its not irrelevant. Media censorship is not limited to China or Singapore etc. In the East its called Censorship, in the West its called Editing. I was a journalism graduate and media is not always objective. As I said, my friend can access all newsites on the web. She reads the articles on AP, CNN, Fox etc. Have you been to China?

And you are being ignorant about Al-Jezeerah. Al-Jezeerah was set up by the BBC on request by the Saudi Government because they were shamed by the public outcry over their actions closing down its predecessor for being too open. AJ was set up to as a objective news source in the middle east and still is.

You say this because of what you hear from Fox or CNN (who are soooooooo objective too). If you understand farsi or can understand malay you can watch and at least get an understanding of what you are condemning.


You can continue to point fingers at what you call hypocrites, and I really don't much care if you criticize the President of this country, or JHusch, or me. I criticize lots of politicians, but that doesn't mean they're wrong and I'm right. They aren't perfect, we aren't perfect, you aren't perfect. The only thing that we can do is keep working toward perfection. Hmmm, seems to me I've read that somewhere, maybe in one of my kendo books...........

I agree we aren't perfect. But if one wants to be a leader one had better strive for better. And believe me...Afghanistan was justified but Iraq...had we exhuasted all possibilities before going to war?

[KhawMengLee]

Stop being immature. Comments like "who will you run to for help when you are in trouble," or "Bullshit" is childish.

Your question was how we can compare what the terrorists do to what US does has been answered.

Namely, that a King/Saint is always expected to behave like one. Whereas a scoundrel is expected to behave like scum. Who do you think causes the bigger outcry when he commits wrong?

You aren't acknowledging points or debating, you are picking on Berugijin with snide comments and no real arguments to the issue. Please, mate...this isn't war or kindergarden. We are civilized, we are adults...this is a debate.

plus: Its the flames section...politics are welcome here. :wink:

[JHusch]

Stop being immature. Comments like "who will you run to for help when you are in trouble," or "Bullshit" is childish.

Your question was how we can compare what the terrorists do to what US does has been answered.

Namely, that a King/Saint is always expected to behave like one. Whereas a scoundrel is expected to behave like scum. Who do you think causes the bigger outcry when he commits wrong?

You aren't acknowledging points or debating, you are picking on Berugijin with snide comments and no real arguments to the issue. Please, mate...this isn't war or kindergarden. We are civilized, we are adults...this is a debate.

plus: Its the flames section...politics are welcome here. :wink:



LOL fine...I will stay out of the flames section then...post on ;)

[nikolaj]

hey, waddayaknow, this thread really DID get a fight started...

And for my own opinion, JHush, your attitude the Irac seems to be just a little too much "an eye for an eye"...
As Berugiijin said, The human rights were set for a reason, they should NEVER be ignored for any reason whatsoever, not for 9/11, nor for whoever is being kidnapped or killed in that region today.

and as for this:http://www.fdnylodd.com/BloodofHeroes.html
fine piece of propaganda, nothing more.

[joekc6nlx]

hey, waddayaknow, this thread really DID get a fight started...



Yep, it's called a "pissing contest" for good reason. Nobody wins.

Propaganda is not necessarily bad, it might be slanted, but it doesn't have to be bad.

You're all prattling on about "justice" as if it were the same as "fairness". Justice is political, fairness is apolitical.

You aren't going to win this argument, and neither am I, because there's no way that things are going to change as a result of this argument.

I was young and idealistic once, too and thought I had all the solutions to all of the world's problems. And no, I've never been to China. Have you been to the U.S.? Have you seen what we (speaking as a retired military man) do for the good, or are you only concerned about the negative image a few people have brought to us?

In my travels around the world, I have found that governments, like people, are pretty much the same.

My country isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than the other places I've seen.

I just knew I should have stayed out of it.......ah well, I must be getting senile from too many cuts to the men.

[Wes Nazo]

Freedom is for the rich to enjoy, and the poor to die for.

[KhawMengLee]

I was young and idealistic once, too and thought I had all the solutions to all of the world's problems. And no, I've never been to China. Have you been to the U.S.? Have you seen what we (speaking as a retired military man) do for the good, or are you only concerned about the negative image a few people have brought to us?

In my travels around the world, I have found that governments, like people, are pretty much the same.

My country isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than the other places I've seen.


Idealistic? Yes...when in Uni everyone is a communist but once you work you become a capitalist;) Its not that I am on a crusade against the US but you must understand that no one likes being told what to do by a foriegn entity, more-so one that fails to practice the same virtues it expunges.

I find it funny people associate me with China because I'm Malaysian and we're miles from China. But to my comments above I'll give you of an example from my home.

Some years ago, our deputy PM Anwar was put on trial for corruption and sodomy. The US stepped in and said his trial was unfair and that it was undemocratic, a violation of human rights and the Internal Securities Act(ISA-imprisonment without trial) was draconian.

Then Vice Prez. Al Gore went so far as to state it during his visit in Malaysia during the ASEAN conference. Which was a real insult to us because here's a guest insulting us in our own home.

Anwar's case, to the youthful idealists, was about a democratic leader, a man of the people who was imprisoned because he wanted to fight against a corrupt system.

To the rest of the Malaysian people in reality, Anwar was a supporter of unrealistic reforms from the IMF which would have crumbled the economy and opened up our markets to foriegn takeover. He wanted the country to be in strife so that people would oust our PM Mahathir.

The US Gorvernment has never been fond of our PM because he is outspoken. So here they had funds and campaigns to paint this total prick(Anwar) as a real nice guy and we had to sit there and watch this crap.


************************************************** ****
Fine...you want to force this 'freedom' and virtues upon us. ISA draconian? well,in your time of strife you used exactly the same tact.

All the countries that accepted the IMF plan have faced huge economic falling, whereas our plan(put forward by Mahathir) has been successful. The IMF went just short of admitting it was wrong by saying its policies perhaps "don't work in some SEA countries."

They harp about corrupt practices in our country, so what about Enron, Arthur Anderson or Worldcom? Heck, AA was cleared today of the paper shredding scandel with Enron.

Earlier in the post I qouted Bush saying he prefers diplomacy over military...I don't think he knows what that diplomacy is. We can advise people but never impose our will because this is tyranny.

The US people have done a lot of good for the world. Take the Tsunami in december...hell, the private sector donated more than the Bush Govt. did and it was egg on his face. He quickly increased his aid as a result.

Yep, I've been to the States. I've also worked in China. Both countries I agree aren't perfect but this post was just a gripe I had over the Bush govt foreign policy.

[h2o]

It was not my intent to say One Evil deed makes another legal. The intent was to say that there is a lower standard that is accepted on what the terrorists are doing and that is wrong.
Uhm, I don't think that's the case. Terrorism is terrorism, and evil deeds are evil deeds. But you should perhaps consider that if you go to a country to "fight terrorism and save the world from evil"(tm) you kust make sure you don't look like the bad guy. I mean, police brutality is not something that is looked upon easily, right?


I kinda understand what you are saying in your last paragraph. Yes we should try and findout what makes things happen. But the sad thing is that most of these terrorists are taught to hate from a early age, they are only told about the Evils of America and the free world without ever discovering what is and what is not true on their own.
Of course they are. Just like we were taught to be afraid and hate the Danes in the Dark Ages (no we love our beer drinking neighbours ;)). Actually. I don't think they "hate the free world", since they obviously only attack a few countries. I'm not worried at all for terroristattacks here. And I sure as hell live in "the free world".

[Ninjujinkaku]

Hate is primitive. let go of it and be free or be a prisoner to it, its your choice.

[ISSAC RU]

As for China invading another country???? Maybe you would like to ask the Dalai Lama about what China has done to his country? Or China's continual claim that Taiwan is not a separate country, for which reason Taiwan was removed from the U.N. Security Council and the PRC was placed there.
..


Tibet and Taiwan are part of China since one thousand years ago and
They were part of the China before the formation of PRC at 1949.
Tibet is not a nation. Dalai Lama has no authority to claim he is the
leader of Tibet. Recently , himself claimed he has no interests what-so-ever
of seperating Tibet from China.
The word Tibet does not exist , It is called XiZang .
As in the case of Taiwan province , Taiwan itself is called " Republic of China''
and Taiwan is a province of China under the title of Republic of China.
Although you can say they don't agree with the PRC but they still claim
Taiwan is part of China , but they are not under the control of PRC.
Simply you can put Taiwan is a province of Republic of China , but PRC
has no control over taiwan . So , Taiwan is still a province of China.


Most of the Americans are being propagandaly washed by the American
governments to think China is a evil country where human right abuses are going on all day long in the country.
That is extremly immature and cold war thinking.
I live in China for all my life and I have never ever experience any kind of
Human right abuse or Human right violation. If you have never live in China
before I think you should be quite about the so called " Human violation''
hippy theory.
I do admit China has harsh law against criminals , but I think western countries should respect our way of thinking . Western Countries should
not interfernce our country's internal affairs. According to the UN consititution
Western Countries have no rights to pressure their system upon the Chinese
people.
The worst thing about America is they thinks they are the best country in the world and tries to put their value and gov't system upon other countries.
Democracy does not work in all the countries.
All the democracy countries in the world have became pro-US puppets.
When USA pointing 1 finger at countries in the world and saying they
have violated Human rights , 4 fingers are pointed at themselves.

[drizzt]

Oh now isaac is a chinese-canadian. didnt you claim to be french a while back?


ims sorry your post just shows a lack of knowledge about the subject, and a dogmaticaproach to every answer. No matter the topic, you disagree with them, and procede to attack the US.

[ISSAC RU]

Oh now isaac is a chinese-canadian. didnt you claim to be french a while back?

ims sorry your post just shows a lack of knowledge about the subject, and a dogmaticaproach to every answer. No matter the topic, you disagree with them, and procede to attack the US.

I am a fully Chinese , not Canadian. I use my PRC passport.

The reason why I disagree with you people is we have different ideology.
You believe what you believe , I believe what I believe.
Doesn't mean your belief is right , I am wrong.
Doesn't mean your US uncle sam policy is right , My marism believe is wrong.
Americans are so proud of their so called " Free-fighter '' attitude , sometimes
I just laugh at their lack of openess when it comes to international issues.
When US can go to Iraq and conquer it for its interests , we don't know
whos the next victim?
You call this freedom or democracy? I piss on it .
This is the New American World Domination Plan , Commonly known as :
'' Free election for everyone and Democracy rules.''

[drizzt]

if your chinese, why do you use the canadian flag?

[ISSAC RU]

if your chinese, why do you use the canadian flag?

It says location , u dump@ss
Can't you read?

[h2o]

Tibet and Taiwan are part of China since one thousand years ago and
They were part of the China before the formation of PRC at 1949.
Now, I have never been to Tibet, nor am I extremely knowledgable on the subject, but wasn't the "tibetans" quite unhappy with the chinese "invasion"?
I mean, Norway was a part of Sweden for quite a long time ending in the early 20th-century... I don't think anyone would consider me sane if I said Norway was part of Sweden.

And perhaps you should mind your language just a little bit. You sound a lot younger than your specified age...

[crabbi]

Tibet and Taiwan are part of China since one thousand years ago and They were part of the China before the formation of PRC at 1949.
Tibet is not a nation. Dalai Lama has no authority to claim he is the leader of Tibet. Recently , himself claimed he has no interests what-so-ever of seperating Tibet from China. The word Tibet does not exist , It is called XiZang .
...

All the democracy countries in the world have became pro-US puppets. When USA pointing 1 finger at countries in the world and saying they have violated Human rights , 4 fingers are pointed at themselves.

Thanks for giving us your opinion Isaac...

I believe that you are wrong with regard to Tibet. China may well have called it XiZang, but the Tibetans regarded themselves as a nation united by a religion and a religious leader. They had a very distinctive culture, separate from China and well-established over many generations...

Invading a country and attempting to re-write its history doesn't mean you are right.

Regarding so-called US Democracy and the setting up of puppet governments globally... I have to say that I agree with you...

How can the US pretend to be Democratic when it behaves the way it does, and has the Leader that it does... Perhaps they have just succeeded in re-defining the term 'democratic'....!

Reminds me of a short poem from the Liverpool Poets:

"... Fascists claiming to be humanitarian are like
Cannibals on a Health Food kick eating only Vegetarians..."

...and regarding whether we should discuss politics on this Forum...we are all political animals as well as Kendoka... the Flames section is a good place for non-kendo-related heated debate... fair game ...

cheers

[Berugijin]

Tibet and Taiwan are part of China since one thousand years ago and
They were part of the China before the formation of PRC at 1949.

France is part of the Great Roman Empire (currently known as Italy) because thousand years ago they were part of the Empire.

Boy do I look stupid now, claiming idiotic things like that. I guess that makes two of us :).


The word Tibet does not exist , It is called XiZang .

No, I'm afraid you're wrong. It's called Tibet. Please stop spreading your newspeak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak#Basic_principles_of_Newspeak).

To settle this argument once and for all, the PRC does not exist. You are all evil rebels like the Tibetans, refusing to obey your true goverment in Taiwan.

I just love using sarcasm with a fine spoon of troll.

[bullet08]

"... Fascists claiming to be humanitarian are like
Cannibals on a Health Food kick eating only Vegetarians..."


i like that one.. lol.

pete

[KevinF]

Issac,

You can't be serious, right? Anyway, I was very amused by your post regarding Tibet and Taiwan. My only answer to everything you said is to pose the simple question: Do you really think any Tibetan would agree with you?

By the way, I am curious, why did your family leave China? Why are you in Canada now? Further, since you are 16, I assume you are already thinking of university. I hope you select a great institution in China for your college studies. There is a kendo club in Beijing, so I don't see any problems there. You can continue your studies there and have lots of fun in courses like "Political Economics," "Marxist-Leninist Theory," and "Scientific Socalism."

I was further amused by your email address: "empire of China".... it kind of puts your post into good context.

[drizzt]

It says location , u dump@ss
Can't you read?

hmm actualy it says country flag when i hold my mouse over it and tool tips pops up ........ strange

[crabbi]

...Tibet and Taiwan are part of China since one thousand years ago and they were part of the China before the formation of PRC at 1949.
Tibet is not a nation. Dalai Lama has no authority to claim he is the leader of Tibet. Recently , himself claimed he has no interests what-so-ever of seperating Tibet from China.




...'Today Tibet, with its unique cultural heritage which incorporates Buddhist spirituality, is truly facing the threat of extinction. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, some kind of cultural genocide is taking place. Time is running out...'
-- His Holiness the Dalai Lama (http://www.shambhalasun.com/Archives/Features/1996/Nov96/DalaiLama.htm)




If you Click on the link you will see an interview with His Holiness, the Dalai Lama where he says that his approach is to seek '...dialogue in the spirit of compromise, in the spirit of reconciliation...' with China.




I realise that 'dialogue', 'compromise' and 'reconciliation' probably don't translate very well into the Chinese language...

[ISSAC RU]

Free-Tibet and Taiwan independence movement are terroist activities that must be stopped.
Dalai Lama is no different from Osama BinLaden. The reason why
you people ''like'' him so much is because he is your watch dog.
The only reason why his terroist activity still going on in the world
is because hippies around the world supported this dog.

[ISSAC RU]

Issac,

Do you really think any Tibetan would agree with you?




It is not up to them to decide weather they would agree with me or not.
It is up the good will of all Chinese people to decide our domestic issues.
NOT YOU , NOT UN , NOT USA , NOT bunch of hippies running around and
putting stupid banners up all day long.
In this world , " Self-determination'' theory does not work.

[ISSAC RU]

[QUOTE=crabbi]...'Today Tibet, with its unique cultural heritage which incorporates Buddhist spirituality, is truly facing the threat of extinction. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, some kind of cultural genocide is taking place. Time is running out...'
-- His Holiness the Dalai Lama (http://www.shambhalasun.com/Archives/Features/1996/Nov96/DalaiLama.htm)



I respect your point of view on this issue , but
Just because they have a different culture then they would be seperated?
If so , Scotland and Irland should be free from the English Rule. French-Canadian should be free from the British Rule?American South should have their own confederence? ....etc...
No offense , just bring up some examples.

[Paikea]

It is not up to them to decide weather they would agree with me or not.
It is up the good will of all Chinese people to decide our domestic issues.
NOT YOU , NOT UN , NOT USA , NOT bunch of hippies running around and
putting stupid banners up all day long.
In this world , " Self-determination'' theory does not work.Why is that?

[Paikea]

Dalai Lama is no different from Osama BinLaden.My God, this is pathetic. Please name anyone the Dalai Llama had killed.

[drizzt]

HAHAHAHAHAHA he kills with kindness (kindness, the ultimate WMD)

[Berugijin]

I was further amused by your email address: "empire of China".... it kind of puts your post into good context.

For a 16 year old kid whose body is undergoing "fascinating changes" it's cool to be part of a big 'empire'. Try to have a discussion with any American teen for example, sooner or later all they can say is "our army is the biggest, the marines are the elite yo".

When is the Western world going to invade China anyways? Haven't we turned a blind eye to their corrupt goverment long enough?

[drizzt]

land war in asia= dumb idea. to many people with kalishnikovs.

an air war would be fun though

(please not im KDDING. i hate war in general unless absolutley necessary)

[Phil-co]

(please not im KDDING. i hate war in general unless absolutley necessary)
Don't you hate war even if it's necessary?

[crabbi]

I respect your point of view on this issue , but Just because they have a different culture then they would be seperated?
If so , Scotland and Irland should be free from the English Rule. French-Canadian should be free from the British Rule?American South should have their own confederence? ....etc...
No offense , just bring up some examples.
The Scots and Irish (and indeed the Welsh) have very distinct cultures... They are part of the United Kingdom and recognised and valued for these cultural differences. Call a Scot British and they will probably snarl, but be okay with it. Call him English and you'd better start running !

My point is that culural groups should be allowed to maintain their traditions and practices and that the greater society should treasure thses differences rather than attept to destroy or subsume them.

Forget the nationality argument, and the situation between China and Tibetans is not that different to any Racial sub-group in the USA... their traditions being worn down over time... successive generations buying more and more into a bland mono-culture... Sound familiar?

What this kills is variety and freedom of choice...

These are the essence of humanity.

What HH Dalai Lama is trying to achieve is a peaceful path, where Tibet would still be part of China, but allowed to retain its cultural heritage... He does not take up the Armalite or Kalachnikov to do this... he talks, discusses and spreads his message of universal tolerance, peace and love (There you go... you forced the aging hippy out of me Isaac-San!!!)

cheers

[h2o]

If so , Scotland and Irland should be free from the English Rule. French-Canadian should be free from the British Rule?
Isn't Ireland already a sovereign state free from british rule?
And I have a vague memory of Scotland having their own parliament and their own flag... I guess a scotsman or englishman know this better than me though :)

[nikolaj]

Isn't Ireland already a sovereign state free from british rule?
And I have a vague memory of Scotland having their own parliament and their own flag... I guess a scotsman or englishman know this better than me though :)

The irish republic is, but Northern Ireland (Belfast and so on) are still part of Great Britain.
I don't know about Schotland.

[El Gringo]

Northern Ireland and Scotland have their own parliament, Wales is devolved to the point of having an Assembly which can pass only secondary legislation, but all three are still tied to English politics somewhat. All three have their own flags.

[h2o]

The irish republic is, but Northern Ireland (Belfast and so on) are still part of Great Britain.
Yes, I was of course referring to the Republic of Ireland, and not Northern Ireland.

[don quixote]

ISSAC RU is a stinking nazi, and the stench makes me ill even here on the other side of the earth.

Back on original topic: americans are selfish and deluded, just like the rest of us. Everybody is out for personal gain, or second best, gain of some group they belong to. It is completly natural and people should not be surprised.
I agree it is sad and possibly unneccesary, but I doubt it is avoidable.
It is best to be aware of it, and not ignore it and pretend that it is not true just because it is unpleasant.
That is what I think anyway.

The US is more powerful than anyone in the world, and can do pretty much as they please. This makes the rest of the world envious and resentful. The US naturally wants to keep or increase its dominance, and in order to do so are obliged to do things that are bound to make the rest of the world even more resentful. We all know how it will probably end in the long run. People have already mentioned the roman empire and some other examples.

[don quixote]

BTW, I just want to add that I am very bored with this 'remember september the eleventh' stuff.

Hate to be a cynic, but why is it so particularily memorable? It looked spectacular and was very unexpected, other than that 'remembering' is just a way of keeping up support for the american war in remotely related parts of the world.

Remember Srebrenica, if you even ever heard of it.

[misterkurukuru]

back to the topic
Sorry KML, but you just tick me off! bahahahahaha

I know this is the “flames” section, but I just wanted to talk a little about kendo and life.

Anger, inflexibility, and issues superiority are the problems that a lot of us must over come. Reflect on your kendo, because it reflects who you are. If you are doing kendo to kick ass, that’s kool, but we all get old, and will not be able to lay the smack down on people forever.

Kendo for SOME, is about spirituality. A key aspect of kendo is learning how to respect the adversity/differences someone shows you. Respecting these people will help you to deal with them in a calm and peaceful fashion. In kendo, we only worry about changing our own kendo into what we want it to be. In life, we should also work on changing ourselves into who we want to be. Sounds selfish, but we all need to love ourselves a little more. ( this doesn’t mean get more action from PALM-ala- HAND-erson)

To be able to love others, we must first love ourselves
To be able to respect others we must first respect ourselves
To be able to change others, we must first change ourselves.

People do funky kendo, people do clean kendo, people do clean kendo only when they have to, people do dirty kendo only if they have to…how does this affect you and your kendo????? It doesn’t.

People do bad things, people do good things, ect… how does this effect who you are? It doesn’t. You are who you want to be, not what someone has made you become.

Cut with all your heart
Cut with the essence of who you are...
If you get beat, thank your opponent for showing you that there is still much work to be done. Reflect, to know what work needs to be done.

Mister kurukuru
Human

SCI in hawaii!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[louisvandalen]

'Some' prisoner abuse? Way to go on marginalizing that! 'Some' women get raped too, but most don't, so why should we care?

Being fed, getting shelter&clothes and being warm is part of your human rights, but they're not ALL your human rights.

Under the taliban regime women would be sent into prison for not obeying their husbands, brothers and fathers. They would stay in prison untill they would give in sometimes for years under very harsh circumstances (many would commit suicide or die of infections and disease). In case she would be accused of adultery she would be executed, either by bashing her head in with stones (not big ones, the pleasure had to last) or in the best case by gunshot, mind you these trials weren't very fair to say the least and often the judge was a local tribes chief whom had interests other than a fair prosecution. Most women in the prisons where there because of "crimes against honor" often pregnant or accompanied by childeren. When the US liberated Kabul ALL female prisoners except 2 where found executed in their cells by those gentile and forgiving people.

Under the Taliban regime all possible political opponents where trown in jail without prosecution and would be tortured "medieval style" to plead guilty.

Well these where the good old days.

Now the world goes mad over the humanrights of people whom actually took part in these crimes and it takes the US to long too figure out which ones are guilty and which are not?

I welcome the future! Let's go Cuba! Vamos alla playa!

But really, no I should be against all kinds of violations on human rights but on the other hand if things get out of hand that seriously I think intervention is a good thing (intervention=violation). In this case we increased our universal human rights credits with quite a few not having no taliban arround anymore. Or Sadam. Or Milosovic. They weren't very nice!

[KhawMengLee]

back to the topic
Sorry KML, but you just tick me off! bahahahahaha!!!!!!!

hehehe...its a dirty job but some evil fecker's got to do it.

[samurai999]

land war in asia= dumb idea. to many people with kalishnikovs.

an air war would be fun though

(please not im KDDING. i hate war in general unless absolutley necessary)


Actually, I heard from a former coworker (and former marine) that the US at one point in the mid 90s with the Clinton admin was just moments away from going to war with DPRK.

And Isaac, you have left us... umm... speechless in your words of wisdom.. Gee.. Osama bin laden=Dalai Lama.. :gasmask:
And as for Ireland you can see that they are now their own sovereign nation since they are using their own native language on road signs and maps. (was it gaelic or welsh??)

Tim

[Usagi San]

Under the Taliban regime all possible political opponents where trown in jail without prosecution and would be tortured "medieval style" to plead guilty.

Well these where the good old days.
!

Excuse me... but remind me again: who put the talibans in power? Who helped them fighting the russians and getting there?
Oh, man. I just forgot it... with this great war on terrorism goin' on I just forgot it.
Maybe, just maybe... could it be the same people that trained and helped Osama b.L?

[louisvandalen]

Excuse me... but remind me again: who put the talibans in power? Who helped them fighting the russians and getting there?
Oh, man. I just forgot it... with this great war on terrorism goin' on I just forgot it.
Maybe, just maybe... could it be the same people that trained and helped Osama b.L?

true and not forgotten, they made a mistake which is now merely corrected.

[Usagi San]

true and not forgotten, they made a mistake which is now merely corrected.

You gotta be kidding me, right? What took them so long? Have ObL been hiding somewhere else other then there, and there would not be no concerns about women in Afganistan, no democracy, no nothing. Please.
What about all the women in ALL THE OTHER MUSLIM COUNTRIES??? Countries like Saudi Arabia? Oh I forgot, that's one of ours. Never mind if they're a bunch of savages that treat women like s**t. And how do you suppose they treat their political opponents? Today? When will that it be "corrected"?

My point: America's foreign policy is like Doctor Frankenstein: it's been creating monsters for the last 30 years, but he didn't gave a damn, because the monsters were far way from his home.

NOTE: I don't think America is evil. I don't want to justify 9/11, there's no way to do that. I just wanted, wished that America and americans had realized 30 years ago that terrorism existed back then. Not only after you've been attacked in such a savage way.

[drizzt]

unfortunatly your right, but.....hindisght is twenty twenty. you have to deal with situations that were created.

i wish we had paid castro a little bit of courtesy and attention years ago, and the cuban missle crisi wouldnt have happend.....

[gsx1100s]

You gotta be kidding me, right? What took them so long? Have ObL been hiding somewhere else other then there, and there would not be no concerns about women in Afganistan, no democracy, no nothing. Please.
What about all the women in ALL THE OTHER MUSLIM COUNTRIES??? Countries like Saudi Arabia? Oh I forgot, that's one of ours. Never mind if they're a bunch of savages that treat women like s**t. And how do you suppose they treat their political opponents? Today? When will that it be "corrected"?

My point: America's foreign policy is like Doctor Frankenstein: it's been creating monsters for the last 30 years, but he didn't gave a damn, because the monsters were far way from his home.

NOTE: I don't think America is evil. I don't want to justify 9/11, there's no way to do that. I just wanted, wished that America and americans had realized 30 years ago that terrorism existed back then. Not only after you've been attacked in such a savage way.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
All very sad.

[drizzt]

except freedom fighters generaly attack military targets. to me thats what defines a terrorist. An "army" may accidently kill civilians, but its targets are military in nature(and yes i know , no military in the world is perfect, especialy the US. im talking about a generalized policy). A terrorists intentionaly bombs non-military targets for the sole purpose of killing sheer numbers of people. what al qaede did to the US , and to Spain, and, and , and etc. and so on(im not gonna list em all here), were attacks on innnocent civilian populations.



And before the subject is raised, No i do not beleive the first atomic weapon dropped was terrorism(though the second bordered it very closely). While a sickining act, hiroshima was a military target. I do not forgive the killing of innocent civilians however, and i do regret they were killed(althogh casualty estimations put the death toal MUCH higher had the bomb not been used.......). I beleive whathappend there is one reason nuclear weapons will never be used on a large scale again. the......there isnt a good term, i guess more civilised is as good as any.......have realised innocents must not die because there governments choose toinnitiate war.


and i will be flamed, and there will be finger pointing all around. It realy doesnt concern me. wether anyone likes to admit it or not, conventional warfare, were whole citizen populations are not the enemy(by there own making) has advanced far beyond the need for unnecesary blood shed. accients happen, but they are growing ever farther apart.

My hope is that someday, we will lay down the weapons and work together, but im afraid , thanks to certain attitudes(that can be seen oh so prevelently with certain members of this forum....you know who im talking about) and opinions, i will never live to see the day when countrys will stop having there international pissing contests and allow the world to sink into peace. God forbid that should happen unless its your home country running te show.............

[bluhawq]

You gotta be kidding me, right? What took them so long? Have ObL been hiding somewhere else other then there, and there would not be no concerns about women in Afganistan, no democracy, no nothing. Please.
What about all the women in ALL THE OTHER MUSLIM COUNTRIES??? Countries like Saudi Arabia? Oh I forgot, that's one of ours. Never mind if they're a bunch of savages that treat women like s**t. And how do you suppose they treat their political opponents? Today? When will that it be "corrected"

simple question. How do you know they treat women like shit? How do they treat them?

[drizzt]

You have to admit some of the treatment of women in the more fundamentalist countries can border on slavery.....or is slavery.

In actuality thats one of my only gripes with many of the radicalist countires, they allow slavery....

[bluhawq]

Slavery?Since when did radicalist countries have slavery?Please define wut you mean by "treatment of women bordering on slavery". I really like to know~

[drizzt]

hmm lemme see , remove of parts of the clitoris so the cannot ever have sex without there partners permission, ACTUAL forced slavery of women. laws not allowing women to expose more than there eyes in public, laws allowing husbands to stone wives to death for talking to other men. I would say torture and slavery would fit those pretty well(and there are many documented cases of every claim i made in several radicalist islamic nations)

[bluhawq]

From a muslim's perspective, the only person u have sex with in ur entire life is your wife/husband. As for women covering up..Islam requires it for a number of reasons which I wouldn't say. Takes me too long to type it up. As for stoning wives to death for talking to man...that's a man's law..not from the Quran...besides, according to the Quran, in order to actually pass a death sentence, u must have 3 male witnesses that actually saw the event happening...chances are..almost nill...plus, once u lie in the court, u will never again be allowed to testify...there are other death sentences that they don't implement..I wonder why~~

[drizzt]

what about the actual slavery that occurs? what about the forced surgery on women?

If im not mistaken, the UN has even declared the surgery's they perform mutilation...

Now please understand, im not attacking the muslim religion. "the only person u have sex with in ur entire life is your wife/husband". the christian religion preaches the same creed. MY point was that SOME nations do violate womens basic human rights under UN law, not US law, and use Islam as a cover for there actions. I would be just as angry(probably more so) if a majoritivly Christian country did the same things...

[Usagi San]

simple question. How do you know they treat women like shit? How do they treat them?

To fully understand my idea of treating someone like shit (in this case, women in saudi arabia),go to:

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/briefing/4.html (http://)

Read it. Read it and don't tell me it's all propaganda.

[KhawMengLee]

While i agree that in many Middle Eastern societies women's rights and practical slavery does exist one must also not equate this with Islam.

As BluHawq stated, its how these ppl interperate the Quran that is wrong. You can also say that in Westernized societies women are mutilated when they get plastic surgery...are they forced? Yes. Not agressively but passively. Eg. if you don't look perfect you are ugly...look at how beauty is portrayed in magazines or how its normal for teenagers to get nosejobs etc.

Its sad to see a culture that influenced the European code of Chivalry(yes...that's right...Islamic/Turkish laws inspired Knights Chivalry) fall to such low. During the time of Saladin, women, tho they had no political rights(much like in Europe at the time), were held in the highest regard. Insulting a woman's honour was punishable by death.

Just like early Christian values were passive protest...and then this became the total opposite with the Crusades.

Over time...religious ideals seem to become pure Irony.

[drizzt]

I have to agree completely. Islam is not the problem, it is the manner in wich its being used thats wrong. People are hiding behind a relegion to abuse human rights, when even there own religion does not condon that treatment.

As i said, im not attacking Islam in anyway, only the people in the wrong.

I despise plastic surgery btw. The only use for it is reconstructive. The only common cosmetic procedures i EVER condon are breast reductions, as they usualy are done to improve the life of the woman its being done to, and a breast implant in the case of a woman who has suffered a masectimy(SP?). those two cases i beleive are acceptable, and those are both done as reconstructive, or for health(back in specific) reasons.....

[KhawMengLee]

I despise plastic surgery btw. The only use for it is reconstructive. The only common cosmetic procedures i EVER condon are breast reductions, as they usualy are done to improve the life of the woman its being done to, and a breast implant in the case of a woman who has suffered a masectimy(SP?). those two cases i beleive are acceptable, and those are both done as reconstructive, or for health(back in specific) reasons.....

Hahahaahahaha...yeah, health reasons are always valid...but they get abused... :wink:

"Weed, officer?!?!!? oh, its for...er...medical reasons sir...er...yeah, its MEDICAL MARIJUANA!" hahahahaaha

[drizzt]

actualy some of that is legit, but yeah its getting abused to

[bluhawq]

speaking of plastic surgery, do u guys know dat actress..goldie somethin'...she looks very..erm..plastic..her eyes are damn scary!

[KhawMengLee]

speaking of plastic surgery, do u guys know dat actress..goldie somethin'...she looks very..erm..plastic..her eyes are damn scary!

What? ---------------> Goldie Hawn (http://www.resursadefun.ro/imagini/operation_Michael_Jackson.jpg)

[CezarJ]

Âbout the removal of the clitoris in some countries:

This things happen if the people of the country dont know what they are ctually doing. It's medivial time there and there is no-one to tell them that it is wrong what they do. AI is going there and talking to the religious leaders that it is not acceptable, and most of the time the leaders listen and the mission is a success. They dont need an army to invade, only expert people about the region and the people that tell them about human rights etc.

People that are on this board at least heard about human rights. People in the said country didn't.