Where Did All the Parries Go?

[Old Warrior]

The most basic and primary concept of European fencing is the parry and riposte. Since preventing your opponent from wounding you is treated as being more important than drawing first blood, you spend unbelievable amounts of time learning to stop an attack by a parry and then automatically counter attacking (riposte). The reposte is usually done without conscious thought. After uears of practice it just happens.

I have now enjoyed about 50 Kumdo classes and I can state with certainty that less than 5% of the time has been spent on practicing forms of parries and ripostes. Why is this? It is it a matter of my classes’ beginner status or is it simply the psychology of the art – go for the one strike kill and don’t worry about getting hit.

I can’t help trying to put the training into some realistic scenario. It strikes me that clearly, a perfect muri cut would be fatal, but a simultaneous cut to the side of the neck would be similarly lethal.

Help me find the right mindset.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Kill the opponent. If he kills you while you're doing it, you've still succeeded.

We do have lots of defences, it's just that they're all part of the offence. You'll learn them later.

[alexpollijr]

There's only a few 'parry and riposte' motions in kendo. All of them belong to the oji-waza class (countering techniques).

Some japanese sensei preach that before 3rd Dan, a student should focus on attack, attack & attack only. Even studying under a korean teacher, you are probably under the effect of this method, and that is probably the reason why you are not being taught oji waza yet.

Anyway, the only 'true' parries in kendo are called 'kaeshi'. You receive the strike on your shinai and then strikes back after 'stealing' the momentum from your opponent's blow. Common forms are men-gaeshi-do and kote-gaeshi-men. There are others of course. Then there's suriage waza (deflection techniques) and uchiotoshi (striking the shinai) techniques.

[ben]

The venerable alexpollijr and the venerable neilgendzwill have both hit the nail on the head, but to bang it in further...

Kendo is a *death-match* not a *first-blood match*. The difference between kendo and fencing is definitely mindset. It is only by constant attacking over many years that you can ever develop a palpable *seme* (pressure) which you can use to control your opponent. As Neil said, doesn't matter if you get killed, so long as you kill your opponent. This is called "ai-uchi" or mutual strike. The more advanced stage is that of using seme to totally keep your opponent at bay and force an honourable stalemate (viz. kata no.3). This is called "ai-nuki" or mutual escape.

What to do with parry-and-riposte? Chuck it out. The best mindset is an empty mindset. Or to quote Shunryu Suzuki-roshi "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few."
:)
b

[Old Warrior]

I'm hearing you all, loud and clear. I do not dispute your wisdom. Forgive me, if I question whether this is the only acceptable mindset needed to learn Kendo.

In life, I must survive because there are those who depend on me for their survival. While I am learning a warrior skill and seek to obtain a higher level of skill, I ask myself what is to be gained by sacrificing my theoretical life for that of an opponent's. Unless I am serving in an army that is numerically superior to that of my enemy, what purpose is to be served by our mutual destruction?

Am I not better served by learning how to first protect my own life and only then to "vanquish my enemy"? Since I approach every bout as life/death combat, is it really the way of the sword to always give up your life for an enemy's; when the enemy's life may be worth considerably less to your community?

[Paburo]

i think a BIG difference is that while western fencing is about thrusts mostly, kendo is about cutting mostly. 'killing' in one single thrust is not so easy as 'killing' in one single cut. also, thrusts are easier to parry, cause they often head for a single spot(easier to deviate from target), while cuts are wider(and though deviated may still land on your body).

thus, it's understandable kendo relies less on parries than european fencing.

haven't you heard of the saying, 'the best defence is attack'?
it's very zen-ish.

like in old kenjutsu/battojutsu, the best way of protecting your life was not parrying a lot, or avoiding attacks. it was delivering the deadly blow first.

[sminki]

Well, I myself am not familiar with European fencing, but here goes. I invite you to correct me if I'm wrong anything regarding European fencing.

I think that the heart of the matter lies at that kendo is a "one strike one kill" mindset. As kendo employs a larger and heavier weapon, if one poorly executes an attack, I would think one would need more time to recover/regain composure than European fencing. Therefore, much more emphasis is put on attacking properly.

Secondly, I would think it more difficult to pary a cutting motion than to pary a thrusting motion (especially with a large and substantial sword used by the Japanese/Koreans which are really designed to cut rather than thrust). You'll understand that roundhouse kick is more difficult to block or pary (it's easier to simply get out of the way) compared to say a front or side kick due to the fact that the roundhouse kick (comparable to cutting motion) happens on a plane, as opposed to front or side kick (comparable to a thrusting/piston type motion) which happens on a singular line.

I realize that there are cutting in European fencing as well such as the sabre, but once again, much lighter swords with more thrusing motions than a real "bone cutting" motions employed by kendo.

So I think as parying techniques are much more difficult in kendo, it is typically taught at more advance levels.

[Charlie]

These are all really good answers. By the way, one of the things I like about Old Warrior is that, unlike many fencers, he is open-minded! (The same may be true of kendo-ka taking up fencing, who knows - my point is Old Warrior is more willing to "empty his cup.")

[Old Warrior]

Again, I speak from theory, as I am a Kumdo beginner. And, I am a respectful student who is searching for knowledge not advocating a position in a debate.

A head cut starts from the center of the attacker and comes to the top center or right or left side of the forehead. Simple geometry says this is much easier to parry than a pointed thrust because you have the length of the blade to hit. All it takes is a timed movement to the left or the right, raising the hands slightly. The standard "on guard" position has the hands at a good angle and the point at the throat. It is fast and easy to deflect the blade, in part because the striking part is the thinnest and most flexible.

But more significant for me, is my philosophical point about the value of my life verses anothers. From what I can see. simultaneous (or nearly so) strikes are very common and therefore both combatants have lost. I guess I just have a hard head.

[sminki]

hmmmm

Well, as a practical matter, if a simultaneous strike occurs, both parties lose. And as a practical matter, it is reflected during kendo matches since no one is awarded a point.

As a philosophical matter, I believe that there are two things at work here.

One - is that you must have such a conviction in your attack that you are beyond the thought of you living and dying. This is a bit hard to explain, but as a student of martial art(s) I hope you can see what I mean. There is no plan B. You're going to kill with this strike and as it is a life-or-death decision, you have prepared your all and committed your all.

Two - is that parying has already been done (to an extent) by the fighting for the centerline and distance (what is called seme and mai in Japanese). Meaning that by the time you strike, you should have already won the centerline and distance so that parying by your opponent would be useless. This is also a bit hard to explain. But you try parying your teacher's men/mori attack and see. Even if you succeed parying one attack (in the remotest possibility) he will see an opening which has occurred due to your parying and strike. (Aside from the fact that it is considered by most a bad form for a student to pary or block a sensei's attack).

So as you see, there are many things at work here. You'll come to see that parying becomes harder and harder as you train. It is something that might work against a beginner, but not against anyone who's near your level or better.

[sminki]

Oh, lastly, your point about raising the hands little to pary the men attack comes in useful only against small, quick men cut. You won't be able to do this against anyone who has a larger swingpath of shinai with a great centerline. Your shinai will just get pushed back to the center by the opponent's and he/she will hit your men.

[Old Warrior]

We're getting closer to the point.

First, every lunge or fleche attack, by a skilled European fencer, is done by committing every ounce of your strength and focus. So, there's no difference there.

Second, to a European fencer, the parry to triggers an autonomic response that is faster than the original attack because it is done without conscious thought. So, I'm not buying that a reposte is too slow or a parry impossible.

Third, you can't make a point with me by suggesting that a parry would work against my fellow beginners (or perhaps an intermediate level kendoka) but not against the Master. I am a beginner and I would be a terrific student if I could defeat all my fellow beginners. And if I could beat better students, than surely parrying would have a place. But, nothing I could EVER do would protect me from the Master's onslaught.

But, you have made one point that I did not consider. The power of a Kendo swing is 10 times stronger than that of one of my epees, a sabre blade or a foil. I think the answer may be that the ability to repost is adversely affected by the power of the strike. In other words recovery from the shock of the blow may inhibit the ability to make an autonomic reflexive counterattack. If this were so, a riposte would definitely be harder.

[Paburo]

see?

(from chudan)
to parry a men(cut) for instance, you have to raise your arms and angle your shinai. if you fail to do this fast, or if the angle is incorrect, or if the men cut is too strong, the opponents sword will still hit you in your head/shoulder/arms.

but to parry a tsuki(thrust), you simply move slightly your shinai to the side(enough to offcenter the thrust). and then the kensen will miss your throat.

in kendo you learn also to parry-attack without thinking.
whenever ppl try tsuki on me i always do hari-men without even realizing. i guess that's the type of parry-riposte thing you are talking about.

[Old Warrior]

"whenever ppl try tsuki on me i always do hari-men without even realizing. i guess that's the type of parry-riposte thing you are talking about"

Yes and my purpose in starting this thread was to inquire why a similar response is not practiced for a Muri (Men) Cut. The parry riposte is a fundamental concept in European fencing that is endlessly practiced.

[alexpollijr]

What would be 'hari-men' ?

[Paburo]

it's similar to harai men alex...
i'm not sure if i'd be able to explain the difference...

in harai you 'hit' your aite shinai to one(either) side, then strike.
in hari you 'push' it to the sides, not 'hit' it. i'm not sure how to describe the 'push' movement... its sort of like when you do maki waza. you don't really hit the other shinai like otoshi, you just make contact with it and deflect it aside instead.

sorry for the nonsense... if you come to madrid we'll show you personally :D

[Neil Gendzwill]

The parry defence to men is a very difficult technique. For European fencing, you are mostly dealing with a lunge or something, the fencer isn't attempting to run you down. So if you successfully parry, he's still right there in front of you and ripe for the picking. In kendo, you can try to parry the men but once you've parried it's difficult to counter-attack as he is already into you or past you. An example of this would be men-suriage-men or men-kaeshi-doh. In the former case, it's a sliding defence that's turned into a men attack. In the latter, it's more or less a straight overhead block where the momentum is turned into a doh attack. Both are difficult to execute well. The most common defences against men are debana-kote (hit his kote as he comes in), nuki-doh (avoid the men entirely by stepping sideways and strike doh as he passes) or tsuki (tsuki him in the nodo or mune as he comes in). None of these techniques are typically taught to new students as the basics of correct attack still must be formed.

Parries are much more common when defending against kote as you have more distance to work with. So kote-suriagi-men is seen quite often. Suriagi is a sliding upward parry, it can be done with either side of the shinai. Out and out blocks against kote aren't usually done (kote-kaeshi-something).

These techniques fall under the general heading of oji-waza as has been described. At your stage you are practising shikake-waza, where the attack is entirely generated by you. Within shikake-waza we also have techniques for dispensing with the opponent's shinai. Harai-men is quite common, hit the shinai aside with either an upward or downward motion, then attack. In fencing this technique is called a "beat". We also have uchiotoshi where the shinai is attacked with a close to vertical beat of enough strength to sometimes knock it out of the opponent's grip.

[alexpollijr]

Paburo

Thanks for enlightening me ;)
I think I know what you're talking about.

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
The most basic and primary concept of European fencing is the parry and riposte....

I have now enjoyed about 50 Kumdo classes ... .
Help me find the right mindset.

50 lessons?

Well, possibly a bit more practice is needed before your teacher introduces you to higher level techniques.

There are ways in kendo to entice your opponent to attempt a cut. The technique/s used may be attacking or responding.

A method could be - you entice your opponent to attempt a cut and you take advantage of the situation as they move or commence to move toward the target that you have decided upon.

Your response may or may not include a deflection of their shinai, prior to your attack / cut.

The important point is that you need to be able to deliver a cut / attack and only repetitive kendo practice teachs the body and mind just how to do that. You need those attack skills before you can start to use the other techniques.

[Karaken]

OW, I think it's more phylosophical difference than mechanics of physical movement. I, for one, doubted many times about the lack of parry technics in Kendo. However, allow me to make two points based on ancient examples.

1. There is a war strategy of putting your defense in front of water. This appears to be foolish because you don't have any place to repreat. However, it also says to your soldiers that we have nowhere to run. Only option is to Win.

2. Ancient Chinese sword Kata have various combinations of offense and defense. However, if you know you are weaker than your opponent, there is a technic called "No defense". This will endanger your safety. However, if you must win, this technic will double your strength since you don't have to worry about your defense but you opponent does. If both swords cut, you can continue to cut but your opponent must retreat if he doesn't want to die. It seems to me Japan somehow selectively imported this part of the technic only. Chinese swords move circular but Japanese swords cuts straight therefore ONE SWING - ONE KILL : I believe Korean sword move somewhere in between.

Karaken

[Paburo]

Originally posted by alexpollijr
Paburo

Thanks for enlightening me ;)
I think I know what you're talking about.

don't thank me, thank Saito-sensei. he is the one who taught me those techniques :D

[Old Warrior]

"In kendo, you can try to parry the men but once you've parried it's difficult to counter-attack as he is already into you or past you. "

Another great point. But, it also seems to me that you don't have to get out of the way and therefore your opponent is still standing in front of you and at least capable of being hit.

I guess this topic is of interest because I am so far from mastering the skills of moderately good footwork and swift striking. Standing there and getting hit does not seem like the best alternative. Since my timing is somewhat advanced for my low level of skill, at least putting up a defense and looking for a counter, struck me as a logical choice.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
"But, it also seems to me that you don't have to get out of the way and therefore your opponent is still standing in front of you and at least capable of being hit.
Not in a way that's going to get you a point. You'll have to move away and hit going backwards. And since he's the one that's crashed into you whilst you were busy parrying, you'll have a job doing that.

[KhawMengLee]

Yar, thats what haya-suburi is for. My Sensei used to stress that haya-suburi should be done properly. When you do most of the counter attacks, the little skip back in hayasuburi really helps.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hitting going back when you've got the initiative is one thing. Trying to hit going back after an incoming taiatari has just hit you is different. Possible but your opponent already has the advantage.

And besides, this is already quite different from the original question. When I think of parry-riposte, I don't think of block-crosscheck-counterattack backwards.

[sminki]

"Not in a way that's going to get you a point. You'll have to move away and hit going backwards. And since he's the one that's crashed into you whilst you were busy parrying, you'll have a job doing that."

This point by Neil is a great one. So you'll have to parry/deflect the opponent's shinai and (in almost all circumstances) move back to readjust the striking distance and either do a shomen or hiki men (muri or toigyuk mori) which means that you'll need superb footwork to do properly. And you're right back where you started with the footwork dilemma. This sort of footwork and technique takes very long time to master for it to be done properly in real bout situations.

You having done approximately 50+ kendo lesson means that you just got your bogu and have been doing kendo for 3-4 months. I applaud your initiative to think about what you're learning and trying to improve upon it. I think that we all could be doing more of that. However, I also think that this is the time for you to master the basics, proper strike and proper footwork and these specific techniques will all come in due time.

[Old Warrior]

"However, I also think that this is the time for you to master the basics, proper strike and proper footwork and these specific techniques will all come in due time."

This goes without saying. My starting the thread is a reflection of a thirst for knowledge, even at those moments when I am forced to do other things - like work.

[sminki]

I'm glad that we agree on that point.

The heart of the matter is that the answers are embedded in the basics which is sometimes hard to put in words and explain. People in this forum have given you many good feedbacks. I think you should try to put it into practice, but you will not be able to do it without solid basics and especially solid footwork. Isn't it ironic that the problem which made you think about parrying and countering in the first place puts you right back at the problem itself?

Oh, there is nothing wrong with "standing there and getting hit" so long as you get something out of it. I still enjoy it thoroughly when my sensei/sempai has such a great strike on me that I can only stand in awe of it.

[Karaken]

OW, when beginning pupil asks me what to do to avoid getting hit all the time ( He was actually running away at times ), I told him best you can do for now is to hit men no matter what the other side does.. Keep doing this until you land perfect men often. This is as good a defense as any till you figure out otherwise ( You could become yudansha by that time :-) )

Take the center! Keep it there!

[Old Warrior]

"Oh, there is nothing wrong with "standing there and getting hit" so long as you get something out of it."

The first thing I learned was to try and keep my mouth open and not clenched, because when I got hit it seemed to rattle my fillings and crowns. Now I just need to learn enough to fight back within the rules and without hitting too hard.