Fighting against a nito kenshi?

[munenmuso]

Did you ever fenced against a nito player, what is it like? If you are faced with one, what will you gonna do to overcome him?

What technique do you often use against his two shinai? Is it really difficult to defeat them?

[Tashaki Nakata]

The match is pointless. Niten Ichi Ryu is a totally different style. You're talking like a 5 year old rookie: "Who will win. Arnold Schwarzeneger or Hiroyuki Tsukamoto. Arnold is very strong, but Hiroyuki is much faster and very slippery..."

[emitbrownne]

A little harsh, dont you think? I believe munenmuso is trying to establish the differerences in styles and the different types of actions and reactions that both participants take.
I do not think munenmuso was trying to find out "which technique is the best".

I have never studied Nito and have only fenced against a practitioner once (and that was in my second ever training session). It is an experience....

sorry munenmuso but I cant give an opinion on this topic really... :laugh:

[GMason]

More to the point he is not talking about Niten Ichi Ryu.......

He is talking about Nito Kendo, which are worlds apart. I'm sure Hyaku will confirm this if he on the board anytime soon.

I think, it is quite difficult to say this technique works best against a Nito fencer, just like it is difficult to say this technique works best against a Chudan fencer, as every fencer is different, and of varying skill, but having said that........ alots of spirit and Nidan/Sandan Waza is usually quite effective.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Some people use special kamae. I've seen one where the hands are held quite high and the kensen is pointing left. It looks like it exposes kote but seems effective.

Aside from that, no advice. I've played only two nito guys. One guy was about my level and I found that playing physical and close worked OK. The other is a Canadian national team member and I can't do squat with him, no matter what I try.

[Charlie]

Over the weekend, I watched some top players fence a very good nito guy. Thing is, nito is difficult to do well, from what I understand, so if you have the confidence to do it in shiai, you're probably quite good! Otherwise, forget it. Also, it's difficult to judge the score as a shinpan.

One player I watched did quite well against the nito guy by, as Gendzwill said, playing close and aggressive. The kamae was like fighting against jodan, kensen at opponent's upraised left fist.

I dunno, it's out of my league, but if it were me I'd be hammering on those kote and prolly get do and men for my troubles.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You have to be very careful about distance. Either be outside, or right in their face. If you try to play the middle, you get sucked in too close and then they control your shinai with the shoto and pound you men with the daito. Tip to tip is no good in this case!

[Tashaki Nakata]

I've also fought once against a nito kenshi. It was pretty difficult. But either nito in kendo or Niten Ryu, i think kendo is for one sword only.

[sminki]

Just curious as to why you feel that way. After all, isn't nito way of fighting recognized by AJKF (or Zen Ken Ren as you guys say)? I have seen people testing for their hachi dan using nito. So why is kendo for one sword only?

[Tashaki Nakata]

I think Kendo is for 1 sword only because Kendo isn't a martial art, it is a sport. It should have strict rules on equipment. I'm not against originality (using Jodan No Kamae, for instance, is trully spectacular. My specialty in fact). But it's a fact that using nitto can be an advantage. There are special nitto matches. If you're so facinated, go learn nitto.

[Neil Gendzwill]

According to the rules nito is allowed, so you have to deal with it. If it were such a huge advantage there would be lots of players using it but the fact of the matter is that only a few people have the athletic ability and skill to play nito well. Nito players are fairly routinely beaten by itto players.

[sminki]

Wow. A Japanese guy from Kanazawa claiming that kendo is not a budo. Well, whether kendo is in fact a budo or a sport is a whole stand-alone issue in and of its own (and I do believe that it is a personal issue), so I won't go into that, but with your permission, I will certainly go learn nito if I become fascinated by it.

I happen to agree with Neil on this point. Nito is within the rules so we all have to deal with it. AND if it were truly more advantageous than itto, why don't we see more All Japan Kendo Champs with more nito players? As far as I know, there isn't a single kenshi who won the AJKC with nito (although I hear that one of Toda Tadao sensei's specialty was nitto, I don't know if he in fact won the 10th AJKC back in 1962 using nito). In fact, the way Musashi (at least according to popular beliefs) developed nitto when he was a more aged/experience/wise fencer which suggests that it really takes more control/effort/experience to effectively use two swords.

I guess if you really feel strongly about the "kendo should be itto" philosophy, you could attain 8 - 10 dan sometime and convince the other kodansha to ban nito from modern kendo.

[Steve]

i have fenced with the same Team Canada member that Mr. Gendzwill did a few times. I couldn't touch him.... The best thing to fight nito is to liken it to Jodan. Keep out of their range, or go right up in their face. Try drawing an attack out of them, then capitalize on the opening. Saying that is easy....doing it is another.

[Nishi]

I have fenced two nito players, one of which has been trained in Japan (Both 3rd dan)... I was given advice by one of my instructors (godan) who said "once you know your way thru a nito player, the path is usually the same"...So far so good!

I also find that taking Jodan gives nito players a different threat from what thier used to. Beacuse jodan is such a pro-active kamae it is very fast, and with this, an Itto kendoka can exploit the three main target areas...the kote, right saya men, and the do(exposed side). I'm not a good jodan fencer by any stretch, but damn is it fun!!!!!


Yamae............TSUKI!!

[alexpollijr]

Nito is absolutely not an 'unfair' advantage. As all the guys above have said, we would have plenty of bamboo flying around these days if nito was to win more matches.

With Ito you have the two hands on the sword, which means that you can strike faster and have more control over bloked/deflected strikes and thus recovery time is shorter. Also,in chudan no kamae, you have a vast array of possibilities to initiate or counter an attack.

Additionally, with Nito 99% of the time the blows delivered with the shoto will not count as valid points. So it's mostly about one sword anyway. Also, the myriad of waza available is pretty small, same goes for jodan.

[kendo_chick]

The Nito player that I have played with on several occasions is very good, (I think a lot of people know about Raymond Sensei), But the reason that he is "untouchable" is because he has been doing nito for a VERY long time. I don't believe it is an advantage to use two swords, I believe that it is just a different style.

The one thing about Nito is that your tsuki is wide open all the time. Of course I wouldn't do a tsuki strike against Raymond sensei just because I know he would kick my butt left right and center.

With someone of his own level of playing, nito vs. chudan can be very even. What is very interesting to watch is nito vs. jodan!

[kendokamax]

I find it kinda boring to watch nito matches....it takes hours to get a point.

I played matthew raymond once in jigeiko..woah the distance is so different from normal chudan...it was so tough!

[munenmuso]

Originally posted by Tashaki Nakata
The match is pointless. Niten Ichi Ryu is a totally different style. You're talking like a 5 year old rookie: "Who will win. Arnold Schwarzeneger or Hiroyuki Tsukamoto. Arnold is very strong, but Hiroyuki is much faster and very slippery..."

Please grow a brain. I have a fertilizer for that. I'll send you one if your interested. And to think your in Japan, you don't know the diff between nito kendo and niten ichi ryu.

[mingshi]

Had one Nito guy with Budai zekken at my dojo last week...
Notes taken:-

1) Avoid blade contact (especially with short sword) at all cost. My opponent has been quite concern about blocking...
2) His reach is shorter than anyone in Jodan (because his long sword is shorter)
3) As my usual habit, aim for the following targets: Kote holding short sword, unguarded side of his Men, Gyaku-do
4) TSUKI HIM WHEN HIS KAMAE IS OFF!!!! HAHAHAHA I MADE IT!!!

:D (Sorry, just too happy)

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by munenmuso
Did you ever fenced against a nito player, what is it like? If you are faced with one, what will you gonna do to overcome him?

What technique do you often use against his two shinai? Is it really difficult to defeat them?

Try this - entice the nito opponent to commence a cut to your men, then use a tsuriagi waza to deflect the approaching shinai and cut his (or her) men or kote or do.

[KhawMengLee]

One of my Senseis (who practices nito) told me to watch the shoto(short shinai?). He said its will tell you when the attack will come. In attack he said to try to attack the kote holding the larger shinai or go for sayu men.

Nevertheless, I got a lovely long bruise on my arm when he thought I would attack men after pressing forward with the shoto. Unfortunately/fortunately I kept a strong chudan and instead I got a nice dou cut on my arm...

[Confound]

Dear Mr. Nakata,

I'm weighing in a little late on this, as I was spending the weekend in sulfurous baths, with another white devil. I find your sad attempt to imitate my derisive posts rather heavy handed and lacking in wit. Please try harder next time. Maybe someday you'll be able to insult people properly.

I'd flay you myself, but I'm still tired from all the sulfur, and Munenmuso seems to have done a good job of that already.

c

[Charlie]

Munen, Confound, Nakata,

Um... You guys have a rapport with each other that permits this kind of abusive language? Because otherwise you're not doing a very good job of representing international kendo reigi. Please correct me if I'm wrong and tell me you're actually just friendly rivals.

[Tashaki Nakata]

Wow. A Japanese guy from Kanazawa claiming that kendo is not a budo. sminki, i'm not a stereotype, nor am I obliged to listen to your attacks. I have my own opinion; it's better for you to disagree rather than to introduce everybody to your profanity.

If my opinions on whether kendo is a sport or a martial art (which I think is strongly related with this topic) somehow touch common kendo-issues very deep down there, then I strongly apologize.

Dear mr. Confound, who are you and what do you want?

Also, a warm greeting to everybody on this forum who likes to spread insults and hold on tightly to every typo and weakness instead of having a real conversation.

and of course, to munenmuso. your insults are just so overwhelming. I'm left speechless, lying on the floor, crying and trying to "grow a brain" as you say. happy?

end.

[sminki]

Originally posted by Tashaki Nakata
sminki, i'm not a stereotype, nor am I obliged to listen to your attacks. I have my own opinion; it's better for you to disagree rather than to introduce everybody to your profanity.

If my opinions on whether kendo is a sport or a martial art (which I think is strongly related with this topic) somehow touch common kendo-issues very deep down there, then I strongly apologize.


Tashaki, :)

I don't see why you're being so defensive and blowing your top like this. I see that you're not a stereotype. In fact, all I did was merely point out that you're not a stereotype and that I disagreed with your view toward nito. Nowhere in my post did I resort to using any profanity/inappropriate language or attacking you. I see no reason nor substantiation behind you claiming that I attacked you and that I "introduced everyone to my profanity". Anyone in this forum would plainly be able to see that.

I do think that it is a bit ridiculous for you to say that nito has no place in modern kendo while AJKF and IKF recognizes nito as a valid part of modern kendo. That is what I was expressing in my post and I am entitled to have my opinion just as you are.

I might also mention that there is no need for any apologies regarding "kendo = budo or sport" issue either as I explicitly indicated my belief that it is a personal matter depending on each kenshi out there. If you would like to further read my views on this you'll be able to do so at the "Play"? "Player"? thread.

[aru-ma]

getting back to buisness and kets reduce the steam a little here


Originally posted by mingshi

2) His reach is shorter than anyone in Jodan (because his long sword is shorter)
3) As my usual habit, aim for the following targets: Kote holding short sword, unguarded side of his Men, Gyaku-do

some questions on this, We've had Toda sensei visiting Australia some time ago (last year, I think). I never recall having the daito (long shinai) is shorter than a regular shinai, probably just me though but if it is shorter what size is it?
with your targets I found the kote holding the shoto(short shinai) rather impossible to hit since my opponent always throws my shinai off before it got there, same with tsuki but I always find the kote holding the daito wide open.
and finaly is there a chudan no kamae for nito? or is there only one kamae for nito?

[Neil Gendzwill]

The daito is a 37, so 60 mm shorter than a standard 39 shinai.

[Confound]

I have better things to do than argue with Japanese people. It has been my experience that they never change their minds, so it's no use confusing them with the facts. (Japanese people aren:t the only ones who have this problem, they're just notorious for it)

c

[Tato]

That was a bit radical, Confound, even for you.

Rei.

[Confound]

No, nothing is overly radical. If you'd read my experiences in this insane country, you'd know why I'm willing to overstep the boundaries of decency. You don't laugh about rape and call the victim a 'coward'. That is beyond the bounds of decency. You don't grab a woman's breast, then preface your apology by calling the woman a squeamish weakling. (This squeamish weakling barely restrained her desire to throttle the perpetrator.) You don't tell someone you worry about their health, then deny them sick leave.

That is Japan. Not samurai in nice hakama, or women in kimono.

cq

[Alex]

Just stick to the topic at hand without attacking each other, or Japan. If you really despise Japan so much...apart from doing the obvious, this is not the thread!

As for personal insults, show some respect on the threads, and use personal mail for other stuff that nobody really wants to read. Either way, stop making the moderators have to moderate. It shouldn't be necessary for adults who share a love of kendo.:cyclops: :tired:

[Alex]

By the way CONFOUND,

your last comments are borderline racist. Be careful.:angry:

[qpuppy]

Originally posted by Tashaki Nakata
I think Kendo is for 1 sword only because Kendo isn't a martial art, it is a sport.

I think this can be very debatable.... maybe to you or to many others, that kendo is a sport... but to many other, it's a martial art. Martial Art does not always have to got to do with self defence. It can also have the mean of self discipline, which I see in kendo. Yes, even though being in a shiai and win or lose feels great, and feels like a sport, but I think there will be many kendokas out there who will agree with me.

Also with there where many threads posted before. There are a couple of ways fight agaist a nito kendoka.

1. have you kensen aiming at the kote which holds the taito. and make sure that you are not in a distance where the kotachi is about to touch your shinai.

2. Tsuki!... like jodan, Tsuki is very exposed to be attacked.. difference is that you have to constantly notice there the nito player's kotachi is.. because the kotachi main aim is to break the itto players kensen and attack at any possible chance there is... this means your tsuki must be quick and deadly.

There are many other ways of fighting against nito players as told by Toda sensei when he visited Melbourne, but dont quite remember what the others are.. soo.. that is all i can remember...:P

Cheers

[aru-ma]

AGH!! I hate this!! cant people read anymore? I thought this was a kendo thread not some lame A** argument forum.

If you dont like Japan fine! keep your opinion to yourself in this forum, dont make other people hate what they dont. at least arguing wether or not kendo is a budo or sport is still somewhat related to the forum, not this thread however. Although rather than arguing about it how about just do it and dont think about it, the only reason YOU do kendo is because you like it.

Now for something related to this topic, when Toda sensei came here (melbourne) I remember him teaching us how to play against a chudan nitto so I assume it exist but I've never seen anyone doing it. The other thing I remember is just the differet places (2) you can hold the daito, one is just beneath the tsuba and the other one is where your left hand usually is, right on the bottom of the shinai, when we were practicing it I was using a 39 so it was killing my arms.

last note, I know I should just use PM but might as well. qpuppy, got my gi yet?

[Charlie]

So, where is kensen in nito chudan? Both pointing to tsuki?

[sminki]

if i understand the question correctly, charlie, the person in chudan no kamae should have his kensen to the left wrist of the person using nito (as against jodan). i don't exactly know where the shoto of the nito person should point.

[Tashaki Nakata]

I simply must show my respect to people like qpuppy, seeking the debate in the frustrated conversation.

Anyway, i must say this to sminki. You just didn't get my point. I'm not blowing my top. People communicating via Internet generally never blow their tops. We have smilies just to fool other people that we get hyped up by this 10-minutes-a-day activity we call the kendo-world forum or any forum for that matter. :angry: :eek: :angry: :eek: :angry: :angry: :angry:

see

okay, here's my simplified and finally-rendered opinion. Kendo - the sport is played 1v1swords and 2v2swords (100% fair competition). Kendo- the martial art can be played with 1 sword against 2 swords, with 1 sword against a naginata, against a sausage or against a bare arm if you like. Self-elaboration.

[Charlie]

Originally posted by sminki
if i understand the question correctly, charlie, the person in chudan no kamae should have his kensen to the left wrist of the person using nito (as against jodan). i don't exactly know where the shoto of the nito person should point.

Sorry, sminki, what I mean was, in nito, the player has the shoto at chudan and the daito in jodan. But aru-ma said there was a chudan form of nitan, i.e. both swords in chudan, unless I mis-read that. So where are the TWO kensens in nito chudan - do they both point at tsuki? Does the daito point to tsuki while the shoto hangs out to the right, wavering like a sea anemone?

[sminki]

tashaki,

i guess i don't see your point. firstly, no one is misunderstanding your point of view regarding kendo and nito, so the "simplified and finally-rendered opinion" was a nice review, but whether or not others and i agree with your opinion is another thing.

in my previous post to you, i was simply responding to your comments to me whose point was pretty clear in accusing me that i attacked you and introduced everyone to my "profanity", which is totally unfounded. yet this seems to remain unaddressed, as i didn't get your point.

[sminki]

charlie,

sorry. i understand the question now.

what aru-ma is talking about is that there are 2 ways in nito in which the kenshi can hold his daito. he can either grip the daito directly under the tsuba of the daito (where the right hand usually goes in chudan) or hold the end of the tsuka (where the left hand usually goes in chudan). so it is a matter of where to grip the daito, not where the kensen is, as the daito will be above your head in jodan fashion.

only time a nito kenshi would do a "nito chudan" as you have called it, is during sonkyo, otherwise the daito is always held above the head.

[Mure Dickie]

I am not familiar with the theory or terminology of nito, but a teacher at the dojo where I am currently practicing fights using a kamae where both shinai are held out in front of the body at roughly the same height with the tips crossed.

It is quite a challenge to fight against, though most interesting.

[sminki]

wow. having re-read aru-ma's post and mure dickie's post, i guess there is such a thing as nito chudan. can anyone elaborate on this?

charlie, sorry to misunderstand your question TWICE!

[Charlie]

Hahaha!

So, um, yeah. What sminki said. Mure - were the tips at kensen? And they were actually _crossed_?

[Steve]

I had the pleasure of meeting one Kimura Sensei from Japan this october past. His Sensei was/is Chiba Sensei and he was kind enough to show one of our students some Nito as he is interested in learning it when he goes to Japan this summer.

He explained about the different ways one holds the daito. Normally you hold it at the bottom as in chudan. This gives you your range. When you enter Tsubazeriai, you choke up on the tsuka all the way to the tsuba. By holding it higher up, it is easier to swing /control. This allows the nito player to perform hiki-waza. Once hiki-waza is attempted and the players are separated, the nito player drops his daito and assumes "nito-chudan" *(tips crossed), then pushes his daito back into the original position in his hand by pressing the tsuka against his do. Then assumes the "standard" nito position again.

Pretty slick.

[mingshi]

Some possible Nito-no-kamae (http://member.nifty.ne.jp/MAIC/japanese/niten/niten.html)

Chudan, Gedan etc. exist in Koryu. However, just as "fighting from Hasso and other irregularities", in modern Kendo I wonder how many of the Nito PLAYERS actually knows these things, and how many of them can use their Kamae effectively.

[aru-ma]

Hmmm those were interesting though the pictures showing the kamae was blur but I doubt that anyone would use koryu method in a kendo shiai as such, then again I could be wrong.

in going up against a nitto kenshi is it possible to do a nidan or sandan waza? I know the whole idea of putting everything into one cut but just curious as a possibility.

[alexpollijr]

Once again

Nito kendo and niten ichi ryu have very very little, if any, in common.

Nito and Jodan in modern kendo are , as Hyaku once said I believe, 'bastardized' kamae from koryu. Or someone really thinks that you could 'throw' a sword with one hand on the end of th hilt in the stinging movement of the katate yokomen from hidari jodan with any effectiveness?

So, the only kamae I've ever seen in nito matches are the standard kamae, daito up and shoto in chudan. Of course, there are variations. Some people hold the daito lower , some higher, some angled and some straight.

So most niten ichi ryu nito kamae are not applicable to nito kendo.

As for what steve said, I've seen this kind of hand re-positioning in nito bouts. It's pretty interesting how complex it can get.

Does anyone around have a list of nito waza?

Cheers,

[JSchmidt]

"Or someone really thinks that you could 'throw' a sword with one hand on the end of th hilt in the stinging movement of the katate yokomen from hidari jodan with any effectiveness?"

Well, I was told that it was done. The weight of the sword alone is apparantly enough to kill the opponent, although the most common battlefield kamae, was jodan, cutting two-handed.

Jakob

[moocow65]

as for different types of kamae, here are some that i know of. one is the jodan kamae where both shinai are in jodan position and are criss-crossed. either shinai can be in front. if the shoto is behind, then you can push the daito to strike a-la itto jodan. since both shinai are in the jodan position, you can pressure your opponent more, but both kote, both do, and tsuki are open so watch out. another one is called the jyuuji kamae. jyuuji means cross, so that's how it looks like. the shoto is in front and is horizontal and the daito is behind and vertical. i forgot the tactic to this kamae. i don't use this kamae. the other one is called nokoritsuki, or nokotsuki well something like that. it's a little harder to explain. well let's say you have the daito in your left hand. now raise your left arm straight up. now bend your arm so that it rests sideways on your head. the daito should be on the other side of your body, with the kensaki pointind down, and protecting your do. the shoto is in the normal position. now, if you choke up on the tsuka, you can protect your men, kote, and opposite side do. i read that this kamae is used for kaishi waza. for example if someone tried to hit men (i don't know who would seeing how it's totally protected) you would do a kaishi waza with the daito. i would use this kamae to stall time or something. basically, you can do whatever kamae you want. there's a hasso-type kamae i thought up of that's specifically for debana kote. you hold the daito just like in hasso. your men is wide open, but you want them to go men, so you can hit debana kote. i believe you can do whatever you want. which foot do you want forward? what hand do you want to hold the daito? what kamae do you want to do? how high up the tsuka do you want to hold? there really is not set standard to nito, so there are alot of options you can do. and in reply to mingshi, those are niten ichi ryu kamae. why in the world would someone have both shinai kensaki pointed to the ground? that doesn't make any sense in kendo! maybe it does in niten ichi ryu, but not kendo! yeah if someone came in for men, you just raise up the daito, block the men, and stab the guy in the chest with the shoto. he dies and you win. IF THAT WAS A REAL SWORD! this is kendo not kejutsu. i don't think musashi would win a kendo shiai if he did that kamae. we are talking about KENDO not KENJUTSU! so quit talking about koryo, ichi ryu, tenshin ryu, shoryu, or whatever-ryu. this is kendo. there is a specific reason why i use my various nito kamae. if you practice and understand the reasoning behind why you're doing a certain kamae, then you can use it effectively. i've been doing kendo for 15 years. i take kendo very seriously. i take nito very seriously. so for everyone else, i hope i helped some of you guys out a little. i still have ALOT to learn too.

[munenmuso]

Wow great replies guys.Thank's a lot. That's the very sole purpose of this thread, to solicit and learn from your very valuable experiences which you openly share to everyone. Kendo here is so limited and not easily accessible to everyone, this thread has provided me some indespensible insights about the other facets of kendo which I don't see day to day.

BTW, Mr Tanaka, if you felt insulted, so did I when you insinuated and insulted my question as coming from a five year old rookie when my only purpose is to ask in an academic manner. You cannot gain any wisdom in throwing insults or invectives to another fellow and allow yourself to be consumed by your lack of proper decorum here in this thread just because we are computers and miles apart. If I reacted in a manner unbecoming, for obvious reasons, its also logical and in my opinion, understandable: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The problem is I did better. I only felt sorry that Dr. A had to do his job as a moderator here as in moderating small children quarelling.

You started it, so don't play as the innocent victim and don't wash your dirty linens in public.

:)

munenmuso

[qpuppy]

Originally posted by sminki
only time a nito kenshi would do a "nito chudan" as you have called it, is during sonkyo, otherwise the daito is always held above the head.

Heya guys..

Actually.. From what I can remember that was said by Toda sensei about "nito chudan", it is a defensive kamai. The shoto and the daito is slightly crossed at the top of the shinai (daito on top - so it can change it's kamai very easily and quickly). When a itto player attackes... the cross can be used as to catch the itto kendoka's shinai and locks it between the nito kendoka's 2 swords. From this... it prevents the itto player to move the attack to the side for maybe a possible Do hit.. or even maybe a nidan or sandan waza...

The major setback to this kamai for the nito... it is very very hard to attack.. maybe the only i can think of is maybe a Tsuki by the nito player. Thus it is not used by Nito kendokas.

Cheers

[qpuppy]

Originally posted by Mure Dickie
I am not familiar with the theory or terminology of nito, but a teacher at the dojo where I am currently practicing fights using a kamae where both shinai are held out in front of the body at roughly the same height with the tips crossed.

It is quite a challenge to fight against, though most interesting.

I think this is sminki was taking about... "Nito chudan"

Cheers

[Tashaki Nakata]

sminki, a friendly suggestion. Quit holding onto typos. I counted nearly 5 cases just in the current topic. You're going to piss someone off really bad one day.
I hate to quote myself, but I already said you didn't have to agree with me.

To me, nito are an advantage in an official match.
For an unofficial match, however, it's very useful in self-elaboration for the ito player.

[sminki]

okay. last time... my apologies to the all the innocent bystanders.

tashako , thanks for your friendly advice on the typos. what can i say? we all have our shortcomings.

you still haven't addressed how my second post to you was attacking and profane. as you keep on avoiding the issue, i'll no longer press it. my suggestion to you is that if you can't back up your accusations, maybe you shouldn't make them in the first place.

i have made myself abundantly clear that i disagree and that i know it's okay to disagree with the tashaki nakada, as it's okay for you to disagree with me. i just wanted to know how my statements were attacking and profane, that's all.

you don't have to repeat that you think nito is an advantage. we all understand. on that point, as i have said, maybe you'll make 8 10 dan one of these days and convince all the other kodansha in AJKF or IKF that nito should not be a part of modern kendo. or i guess you could create a Zen Tashaki Kendo Renmei. either way, i don't really care, but it's good to know that you feel that nito is an unfair advantage (although this is another point which you failed to back-up.)

as you probably are, i'm getting tired of repeating myself, so i'm going to end my conversation with you. at least you won't be seeing any more typos of mine which are addressed to you. i wish you well.

[Tashaki Nakata]

you still haven't addressed how my second post to you was attacking and profane. as you keep on avoiding the issue, i'll no longer press it. pure bull (sorry) /\


tashako , thanks for your friendly advice on the typos. what can i say? was that a sarcastic typo or something? /\


as you probably are, i'm getting tired of repeating myself, so i'm going to end my conversation with you.
translation: talk to my hand, girlfriend.

this may sound bad on the forum, but forget the nito debate.. I really hope you aren't such a loser in real life, sminki.

sorry about flaming, i couldn't help it.

[mingshi]

Great....

If is wasn't of Koryu, Why in the first place would anyone start practicing Nito in Kendo? People talked about pulling Hasso and all that Koryu stuff in Kendo is wrong, but when it comes to Nito, it became Kendo again? Does "getting really bored with Itto" sound like a valid reason at all? You are actually dragging something out from the tradition, and placing it in somewhere else out of context.

It was just someone who asked about Kamae in Nito, so I put up Kamae in Koryu. You can stick with your one-and-only Kendo-Nito-no-Kamae if you want. It doesn't bother me much. Even Gyaku-nito is allowed, and somedays you will see Gyaku-itto. But based on what reason does that ever exist, have you consider that, besides "getting really bored"?

What is "practical"? How would you judge? Of course, not all Koryu stuff is applicable in modern Kendo, based on the limited targets and safety for all. But is Kendo Kata practical to you? What are you learning then? Don't do Kendo Kata if it does not teach you practical waza evolved from Koryu. Forget about uchi-otoshi-waza too, since that's obviously Koryu waza.

Let's not forget, Niten Ichi Ryu is not the only school with Nito Kenjutsu in their curriculum. Now how do you judge cutting with Shoto? Your Shoto would just end up being.... basically an extended part of your arm doing all the blockings for you, without cutting/scoring intention. Yeah, yet you still label it to be a "short sword".

You can take Kendo as serious as you wish. You can take Nito seriously. You can take Chanbara seriously too. Does it really matter wherther you have been doing it for 15 months, 15 years, or 150 years? Please, restrain from bragging. Now I never bother asking people what Dan grade they are at, or how many years they have been practising. It can be depressing to see people doing it for a long time ended up learning little, so as the other way round. Those are just unreliable statistics.

The day I find holding one Shinai in my hands BORING, is the day I quit Kendo.

I rest my case. To the others, sorry about this "flamey" thread. Off forum complains welcome.

[KhawMengLee]

Could you two lovebirds stop flirting already!?

Now Mr Nakata, though I disagree with your opinion, nevertheless, it is your opinion. I debate though the validility of your argument.

Is Nito a truly great advantage? One of my Sensei uses nito from time to time. But in a real match he always goes back to itto. I watched him and another senior kendoka fight the other day(both are Malaysian team members) and I was blown away by their sheer fighting spirit...I remember fighting him in nito thinking I am gonna get whooped...looking at his full power attacks in itto, I'd take nito anyday...

If nito was such a great advantage, how come there are no nito champions in the AJKC (sactually have there been any?)?

Nito is another interesting style, but its not a supreme advantage. If it were that easy it would just be the way.

I not an expert but I will say that my kendo journey has been enhanced by nito not detracted by it.

Ah, well to each his own...

MENg

[Charlie]

Originally posted by mingshi
The day I find holding one Shinai in my hands BORING, is the day I quit Kendo.

Word. And by the way, thanks for the link. Me, I wouldn't want another sword in my hand. How could I grab you and grapple with you that way? :p

[Kendoboy]

As for the posts ON topic, they make for very informative and interesting reading. As for the rest, I find it absolutely pathetic when I have to (as an innocent bystander) scroll past 70 percent of the replys because they are childishly inane. I assume that we have all passed puberty, and are all here to learn from each other. Please act and write like it.

[moocow65]

there are advantages and disadvantages to doing nito. i think the biggest advantage with doing nito is that not that many people know how to do kendo against a nito kenshi. they usually end up doing the wrong kamae or whatever against me, and i beat them pretty easily. another advantage is that it is difficult to hit anything on a nito kenshi because either it is already protected or it can be easily protected. you have two shinai so you can use one or the other to do seme or do fakes or whatever, and you can play with their minds. that's pretty fun to do. i think these are the main advantages. now on to the disadvantages. you're holding one shinai in each hand so you get tired alot easier. and if you're not physically strong enough, you'll be swinging so slow that you'll never be able to hit anything. your strikes and zanshin and all that stuff have to be that much better cause you're hitting with only one arm. just like in jodan. everything has to be cleaner. alot of people don't know how to judge nito. they think they do, but they don't have a freaking clue what they're doing out there. and you will eventually go against people who know how to deal with nito. there are certain kamae that i have a hard time with. judges will also award lighter points to the person doing seigan just because he's going against someone who's doing nito. and you really can't do nidan or sandan uchi. even if you can do a kote men with one hand, the men would have almost no kime, so they would never award that point anyways. and the lack of knowledge regarding nito is massive. you'll be lucky if there's one person who actually knows how to do nito in your country. knows how to do it right and is really good. if not, then you're on your own. to me personally, it is an advantage because my arms are able to hold the two shinai and swing with one arm. but that's only because i worked out my arms just for the purpose of nito for 3 months before i actually started it. i also get a longer reach. with seigan, i wasn't very good at doing tobikomi, so i would always come up short. with nito, you don't have to do tobikomi that much cause you get a longer reach. i guess it all depends on the person. but i do think that if a nito kenshi and a seigan kenshi both had the same speed, skill, seme, timing, in other words, were exactly equal, i think the nito kenshi would have a slight advantage just because he has the extra shinai. but if nito was truly an advantage, then there would be more people doing it. and if anyone thinks it is unfair to do nito or if it is an advantage, then they should try it out once, and they'll soon find out that it's about ten times harder to do than seigan.

[misterkurukuru]

I have tried hasso, jodan, nito, and seigan. I have found that seigan is the easiest kamai out of thoes to use in tournaments. The judges will let you get away with light and ugly hits, also you can recover after you have hit faster in seigan then the other kamais. I have practiced with the best Nito in Canada and in the US and all i can say is that if you suck they will pound the crap out of you!!! if you are 3 dan and above you can run away from them for a while but you will look gay!!! what i do is hit kote, men tsuki, and dou on them and it seems to work fine for me!

[Tenken]

no matter what everyone says you have to fight the guy/girl to see what works for you. Some could not be good at men, kote, do, or even tsuki. So try everything and start from what worked the best.(Make sure you practice with one before you fight them at a tournament)

[ben]

Thanks moocow for your informative comments.

The shoto has NO effective point-winning power in nito kendo does it not? Therefore it makes sense to ignore it completely (same as when fighting naginata to ignore the blunt end -what's it called? - hitting your suneate). Then you can approach the nito kendoka as if s/he is a one armed jodan player. As someone said, jodan vs nito also seems to work well, turns the tables of surprise on the nito player.

Playing against nito in my experience is extremely tiring but really rewarding. It forces you to be really powerful and fearless.

b

[Ares2907]

Not exactly true Ben. If you are seen to be playing to stifle the longer sword and ignoring the shoto, you can be scored on with the shoto. In any other case, the shoto does have scoring power, however it would have to be one of those points that judges stain their hakama over.
I've found the best way to play against nito is to be constantly on the move, constantly attacking and never under any circumstances cross your shinai with the shoto. it's suicide.

[ben]

Ta Ares. I stand enlightened.

b

[Steve]

You can score points with the shoto, but they are rare. I posted earlier (either in this thread or one of the others involving different kamae, i can't remember) a response i received from via e-mail from one of the members of Team Canada (Raymond Sensei) who does nito. It explains a situation where he was awarded a point from his shoto.

[munenmuso]

But what will happen if you loose your shoto? Can you still continue the match using one shinai only?

[Ares2907]

If you only lOse your shoto, I believe you still get the hansoku.

[MaxPayneWayne]

i just got done reading through this thread and other nito threads, and something really bothered me. people who do nito are players (derogatory remark) and they are musashi wannabees? it's stuff like that that will get your butt kicked by someone who does nito, because you'll just think they're just a player and a wannabee. well let's see, so people who do itto aren't wannabees? gee, sakamoto ryoma used itto, kojiro used itto, but of course we're not trying to be like them right? if people who do nito are musashi wannabees, then everyone else is a general samurai wannabee who isn't musashi. well let's see, musashi was one of the strongest samurai/warrior in japan. wouldn't you like to be like him? or how those commercials go "like mike, if i could be like mike" for those of you who have no clue as to whom i'm talking about, i'm talking about michael jordan. i also just got done reading kendo-nippon, and it had a whole section about nito and niten-ichiru. and it interviewed a bunch of people from this nito-ryu focused dojo. one of them said that they learned the joy of kendo through nito-ryu. so if you're gonna say anything about nito/jodan/hasso, why don't you actually try it first before you say anything. i sure wouldn't want some guy who does fencing to talk crap about kendo, when he knows nothing about it, and i'm sure that guy wouldn't want me to talk crap about fencing, especially when i've never done it in my life. and yeah, if you lose the shoto, it's a hansoku.

[alexpollijr]

Well

That's a nice point, bluntly put.

Nito is a very nice thing, very challenging both technically and physically. It's a very important part of modern kendo, and if you pick that old sixties video, 'Kendo : Japanese Fencing' you'll see legendary people (most of those who were to become 10th Dan later on) displaying Nito as part of the kendo curriculum alongside Jodan no kamae, just after they've shown fundamentals practice and sparring practice.

Aren't most kendo beginners 'samurai wannabees'? Aren't we all 'samurai culture' enthusiasts? Isn't it common to see people 'looking down' on 'sports kendo' players?

Just (bad) food for thought.

[Inouye02]

its not only beginners that are wannabees , i've seen some 4-5 dan who are still wanna bees or are lost in chambara land ..lol it was only last week i saw a sensei drop to his knees and cut doh..hahahha

[alexpollijr]

Wait there, if he was old, that might be 'Orishiki waza', the crouching/dropping Do cut seen in Tachi no Kata #7 and on various old kendo videos.

In that case, instead of a chambara E.T he might be some venerable veteran!

[Inouye02]

on both knees ?

[Inouye02]

this was a drop on to both knees ,and cut doh

[William Honda]

Test

[Inouye02]

gotta test my nito again with you honda......ahahahhaa

[William Honda]

I'm ready, but watch out!

I'm so clumsy you may get hurt.

heeeeee heeeee

William

[Inouye02]

Honda..

went to Chuo Dojo tonight , awesome practice tonight , to bad you missed it .. practiced with Itokazu also ..where'd that shinai come from .....ahahahaa

[Raiza]

I was lucky enough to see this...
Team Canada Gasshuku (shiai), Montreal
Suguru Asaoka (usually chudan, assuming jodan for only this match) vs Matthew Raymond (nitto) and the former won
Why?
1) Asaoka is amazing
2) Jodan has more reach over nitto (previously discussed)
3) Gyaku-do and kote are vulnerable (previously discussed)

Heaven forbid I'll come up against a nitto in jikeiko or shiai, but it'll be jodan for me too after I've reached shodan.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Tried jodan against Matthew, got flattened. Another odd kamae I saw was at Nationals when Kiyo Kamata beat Matthew. I don't know what to call it, he had his hands very high and his kensen aimed towards Matthew's right kote, ie opposite of seigan. He scored two gyaku-doh out of this kamae.

[Raiza]

I'd be toast against Raymond too, and so would most people. I've seen that kamae used against against chudan and jodan too, Neil. Anybody know what that one is called?

[titus]

Originally posted by kendokamax
I find it kinda boring to watch nito matches....it takes hours to get a point.


Hehe, I recommend you never watch western fencing, or at least Epee, it's much worse.

[misterkurukuru]

Raymond is slow compaired to nakauchi sensei( he got 3rd in worlds.....the guy is bad @ss) and itokazu. the only thing that raymond had when i fought him was that he was tall. He hit slow and he did not have any creative waza... he did have very nice form and good use of his shoto. Raymond is good, but if you move around a little, he cant do much. Check out ITOKAZU at the next worlds in july, you will be in awe of his speed and wazas! of course he cant beat kurukuru men!

[munenmuso]

Are we going to see a Nito kenshi in the WKC in Glasgow?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Guaranteed, Matthew Raymond is on the Canadian team.

[Inouye02]

Itokazu for the U.S team ...

[M.K. Kawai]

Just out of curiosity, is there going to be anyone from Japan who does nito?

MKK

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hey, I finally found out the name of the kamae that some people use against nito - it is called kasumi (fog). You use this if the person is holding the daito in the left hand. Your right hand is held about shoulder height and lined up with the shoulder, and the left hand is crossed under so that your kensen is pointing towards his right side. The line of your shinai more or less follows the line of his daito. This works against someone playing from jodan as well.

You'd think that this would leave your kote wide open but actually he can't see it. You're covering men too. I haven't tried to play from there, it feels a little awkward. But from the jodan perspective, unless he moves his kensen to his right so that his men opens up, there's really nothing to hit.

[Inouye02]

what if the daito is in the right hand ?

[Neil Gendzwill]

If the daito is in the right hand it's probably best to just use seigan (chudan but with kensen a little up and to the right to cover kote). Bear in mind that I'm getting this all second hand. As I said before, I did see kasumi used successfully against nito at the Canadian championships. Kiho Kamata beat Matthew Raymond 2-0 I think, both times gyaku-doh from kasumi.

[Inouye02]

well neil , since the kote is the hardest to hit with the daito in the right hand , dont you think it will open up your men or gyaku do ? by using the shoto to do osaete waza , or suriage waza ? i'm just curious also since most people do that when the daito is in the left hand ..

Jamie

[Neil Gendzwill]

Ya got me, I've basically stated all I know about fighting against nito. I've only done it myself a couple of times and watched others play. This past summer was the first time I'd ever seen kasumi used.

[Chusan]

@ kasumi:
I`m not sure whether I got you correct, neil.
Kasumi; is this that particular kamae one can see sometimes in Japanese Samurai Movies, used from foot-fighters against horsemen? BTW, Conan has been seen using it, too (no joke).
The hands are crossed, the shinai is quite high, the right palm facing downward, the left one of course upward (inverted hands). You actually go for the kamae I`m talking about from chudan with rotating your arms counter-clockwise to the upper right side high up to the height of shoulders, pointing towards your opponents right upper hand (he in jodan).
If THIS is it, well, than I can say - it really works fine against both jodan and nito. Though I do seldom use it, my wife (sandan) who is about five feet small, uses it constantly against taller players especially if they like jodan. That kamae is really terrific and usually leeds to very successful do-hits and quite surprising suriage-men. She`s quite good with it.
The best chance of hitting her when she chose to assume that kamae is a katate-kote - which usually won`t score a datotsu *sigh*

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yes, that's pretty much it.

[Crash]

Raymond is slow compaired to nakauchi sensei( he got 3rd in worlds.....the guy is bad @ss) and itokazu. the only thing that raymond had when i fought him was that he was tall. He hit slow and he did not have any creative waza... he did have very nice form and good use of his shoto. Raymond is good, but if you move around a little, he cant do much. Check out ITOKAZU at the next worlds in july, you will be in awe of his speed and wazas! of course he cant beat kurukuru men!
I know this is an old post. But i just started practicing with Nakauchi sensei. The man in unbelievable. He doesn't do much nito anymore, but it's a show when he and Yamasaki sensei go at it. Real fireworks. Nakauchi sensei started doing nito a long time ago, when it was very unpopular. He told me he caught a lot of flak for it. A real trailblazer for his time. BTW, what WKC did he finish 3rd in? I know that he has the distinction of beating the then Japanese champion in a match.

[moocow65]

I know this is an old post. But i just started practicing with Nakauchi sensei. The man in unbelievable. He doesn't do much nito anymore, but it's a show when he and Yamasaki sensei go at it. Real fireworks. Nakauchi sensei started doing nito a long time ago, when it was very unpopular. He told me he caught a lot of flak for it. A real trailblazer for his time. BTW, what WKC did he finish 3rd in? I know that he has the distinction of beating the then Japanese champion in a match.
Yeah he beat the champion during the team matches I believe using Mark Grivas' shinai because I think Nakauchi-sensei broke all of his or something. Pretty crazy stuff.

[sminki]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to my records, Nakauchi sensei did not win 3rd at WKC in the individual tournament. That must mean he was a part of the one or more U.S. teams which had placed third at WKC in 1973, 1976, 1979 and 1982.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

my arms are able to hold the two shinai and swing with one arm. but that's only because i worked out my arms just for the purpose of nito for 3 months before i actually started it.
What sort of training did you do in order to build up for one armed swinging?

[misterkurukuru]

He bought a lot of rubber nipple… “They’re prefect for your nose hairs!” Ahhh Stimpy… not many people know his full name…

Moocow did kata te suburi with an omoi shovel. You only wish I was lying about that don’t you! He also did kata te suburi wth a bench press pole.

there is also the shiko funjatta football guy ooen drill!! jk that ones fake hahahaha

[Kendo-Militia]

I know this is an old post. But i just started practicing with Nakauchi sensei. The man in unbelievable. He doesn't do much nito anymore, but it's a show when he and Yamasaki sensei go at it. Real fireworks. Nakauchi sensei started doing nito a long time ago, when it was very unpopular. He told me he caught a lot of flak for it. A real trailblazer for his time. BTW, what WKC did he finish 3rd in? I know that he has the distinction of beating the then Japanese champion in a match.

Nakauchi-Sensei is one bad mo fo. I will admit I was a cocky a**hole when I was competing but if there is one thing I feared and still do is Nakauchi Sensei's Yoko-men. Don't let that smile fool you. And when you practice with just be glad he doesn't do nito anymore.

[Inouye02]

I know this is an old post. But i just started practicing with Nakauchi sensei. The man in unbelievable. He doesn't do much nito anymore, but it's a show when he and Yamasaki sensei go at it. Real fireworks. Nakauchi sensei started doing nito a long time ago, when it was very unpopular. He told me he caught a lot of flak for it. A real trailblazer for his time. BTW, what WKC did he finish 3rd in? I know that he has the distinction of beating the then Japanese champion in a match.

are you learning Nito from Nakauchi Sensei also ?

[ookamiotoko]

Keeping seme, & applying pressure seems to work! I also try to fake Men, & go yakaDo.


Not exactly true Ben. If you are seen to be playing to stifle the longer sword and ignoring the shoto, you can be scored on with the shoto. In any other case, the shoto does have scoring power, however it would have to be one of those points that judges stain their hakama over.
I've found the best way to play against nito is to be constantly on the move, constantly attacking and never under any circumstances cross your shinai with the shoto. it's suicide.

[Inouye02]

Originally Posted by Ares2907
Not exactly true Ben. If you are seen to be playing to stifle the longer sword and ignoring the shoto, you can be scored on with the shoto. In any other case, the shoto does have scoring power, however it would have to be one of those points that judges stain their hakama over.



Not true , Our shimpans were told NOT to take points with the shoto, no matter how good it was..they had a shimpan seminar last sunday,

[Crash]

are you learning Nito from Nakauchi Sensei also ?Not yet. Having enough trouble with one shinai! He does let us play around with it, showing us some very basic moves. One day though...

[oldenhaller]

Just stick to the topic at hand without attacking each other, or Japan. If you really despise Japan so much...apart from doing the obvious, this is not the thread!

As for personal insults, show some respect on the threads, and use personal mail for other stuff that nobody really wants to read. Either way, stop making the moderators have to moderate. It shouldn't be necessary for adults who share a love of kendo.

I totally agree. But aren't there any moderators here? These kind of posts should be immediately taken off the forum. Every time I visit this forum, I leave it in disgust just because of these people like Confound.

[itachi]

Some people use special kamae. I've seen one where the hands are held quite high and the kensen is pointing left. It looks like it exposes kote but seems effective.

Aside from that, no advice. I've played only two nito guys. One guy was about my level and I found that playing physical and close worked OK. The other is a Canadian national team member and I can't do squat with him, no matter what I try.

Sounds like Mathiew Raymond.

Edit: sorry did not see there was already 8 pages. hmm just ignore what i said.

[Greger]

I have only this to say.
Its extremely hard to control both the shotot and the daito properly, itto players also have fewer target areas exposed, and in so even less to keep their minds on. its also possible to smash the shoto out of an nito users hand, that can get you a point or a easy target. the daito is also easy to deflect considering that its weilded in the left hand.
Its also the only sword that you can score whith(few players get ippon for shoto).

i fought about trying nito, but it nots such a big advantage when you think about it, a sword weilded whith two hands is very easy to control.

simply using ones extra strenght agressively should be enough to counter nito aites(opponents).

if you let them go offensiv they will lock your sword whith the shoto. If you attack first, then he has to worry about, men and two kotes that can be hit as well as a do. not bad i would say. he will have a hard time blocking whith the shoto or daito as well.

korote

[Johannes]

i fought against nito and won on a men dou, its not very hard just dont have kamae with the small sword, i hitted the smal ona so he got tired in his arm and his Kamae raised a little after every men so i did men dou whent by and got the point

[Phil-co]

i fought against nito and won on a men dou, its not very hard just dont have kamae with the small sword, i hitted the smal ona so he got tired in his arm and his Kamae raised a little after every men so i did men dou whent by and got the point
Perhaps you didn't meet the sharpest of the nito players. I assure you, against a good, experienced nito player it is not all that easy. If you constantly hit his shoto he will unleash the destructive powers of his daito on you, before you can say 'ippon'.

[ShinKenshi]

My dojo's mentor told me about an experience of his with his sensei in regards to an opponent who used nito. He said that his sensei had a feeling that he would be going against this guy who was known to be very good at nito and to prepare for it, he practiced making his tsuki strikes very acurate. He would gradually increase the distance from which he would execute the tsuki strike until he could hit it dead on even from to-ma. When the tournament came around, low and behold his sensei did in fact go against the nito guy. To quote him directly, his sensei, "...tsuki-ed him out of the tournament!" Guess that's one effective method against nito.

[ninjamster15]

i've studied nito...so i'll try to explain.
in the style i studied, you hold the katana in the right hand, and the wazashi in the left. Generally, the left sword is used for blocking/deflecting attacks and for creating openings in you opponents defense. Once you penatrate you opponents defense, you deliver a killing blow with the katana. This is the basic usage. How to beat a nito-user of equal skill? Don't wildly swing at them (not that you ever should), try using thrusts & avoid slashes. Slashing is an easy way to attack, but its easier to predict/defend against. Plus, depending on the range/where you hit them, a slash might not deliever the intended killing blow. With thrusts, its slightly harder to predict exactly where it will strike. You can try baiting them into attacking you..which leaves them open for a split second. Pretty much...keep moving, stay on defense, let them make the first move. One note: if this isn't a formal dojo duel, the nito user may use a technique called "shuriken uchi yo". Pretty much, they throw the short sword at your right side. When you move to block/dodge this, they attack from your left. The max range for this technique is 4 meters, and its a pretty advanced technique (if done correctly), and its not too common.

[ninjamster15]

oh, one more thing. i read in one of the earlier posts that not many people use nito, even though its allowed in tournments. the reason:its hard!! its takes lots of coordination & positioning (otherwise, your extra sword just gets in your way) and because your only attacking with one arm, you have to be a bit stronger. If you want to try to learn it, would recommend learning the basic forms/attacks with a single sword first.

[HandsomeWarrior]

oh my...







:rolleyes:

[moocow65]

i fought against nito and won on a men dou, its not very hard just dont have kamae with the small sword, i hitted the smal ona so he got tired in his arm and his Kamae raised a little after every men so i did men dou whent by and got the point
hey man, don't be so hard on us nito guys. there are only a few of us out there. we're trying our best to be as good as everybody else.

[emitbrownne]

Wow... this thread has been dusted off again. it was one of the first threads I commented on...

I enjoyed reading the first time , the second and I am enjoying it again. Each time I read it I get something new from it.

Since my original post I have taken up nito.

Before I get berrated, I have recieved no formal training, I have read books, watched video and watched practitioners in the flesh.

I am not good at it but I enjoy it.

As for openings, and how to combat a nito player from itto ... think nidan/sandan (or more) waza.

[Hai_hai]

...One note: if this isn't a formal dojo duel, the nito user may use a technique called "shuriken uchi yo". Pretty much, they throw the short sword at your right side. When you move to block/dodge this, they attack from your left. The max range for this technique is 4 meters, and its a pretty advanced technique (if done correctly), and its not too common.
Oh ninjamaster, you are so wise. I've been using 3.98 meters. Oops.

[Hai_hai]

oh, one more thing. i read in one of the earlier posts that not many people use nito, even though its allowed in tournments. the reason:its hard!! its takes lots of coordination & positioning (otherwise, your extra sword just gets in your way) and because your only attacking with one arm, you have to be a bit stronger. If you want to try to learn it, would recommend learning the basic forms/attacks with a single sword first.
I just don't have the words to express what I'm feeling.

[Shiro7]

i read most of the thread..gah so long...
Does anyone have any nito videos? I love nito its so cool, but i never seen a match just screenshots. Btw...Whats with the guy so racist to japanese people and stuff..? I mean.. The ones I know are real nice people.. I guess its an asian thing though lol.. (just kidding)

[DCPan]

i read most of the thread..gah so long...
Does anyone have any nito videos?

Sato vs Matthew Raymond (this one is great)
http://kummisa.cafe24.com/10/10-6.wmv

From the other thread.

[Kanoken]

Sato vs Matthew Raymond (this one is great)
http://kummisa.cafe24.com/10/10-6.wmv

From the other thread.
This link isn't working.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

i fought against nito and won on a men dou, its not very hard just dont have kamae with the small sword, i hitted the smal ona so he got tired in his arm and his Kamae raised a little after every men so i did men dou whent by and got the point


hey man, don't be so hard on us nito guys. there are only a few of us out there. we're trying our best to be as good as everybody else.


Somehow I'm thinking "not very hard" doesn't describe how that would go for most people who tried it with you Moocow.

[KhawMengLee]

i fought against nito and won on a men dou, its not very hard just dont have kamae with the small sword, i hitted the smal ona so he got tired in his arm and his Kamae raised a little after every men so i did men dou whent by and got the point

Haha...Nito isn't a very mainstream kamae/style in kendo. So most of the young guys doing it aren't going to be that experienced. Barring the likes of the evil cow, matthew raymond and the Nito dojo guys in Tokyo, most of us doing it out of Japan are pretty much learning to walk all over again.

However, given good guidance and 3 years nito training I'm sure they'll give you a run for your money.

My Sensei fought against a Nito Sensei from Japan during the a tourny in Singapore...he said it was okay at issoku itto...but during tsuba zeriai the guy would wail on you like a taiko drummer...

[Shiro7]

the link isnt working.. i just get some korean words or something and a big sign that says stop...:\

[KhawMengLee]

the link isnt working.. i just get some korean words or something and a big sign that says stop...:\

Try downloading later or tommorow. Bandwidth has been reached(its been downloaded too many times) so you have to try again later.

[Paikea]

i fought against nito and won on a men dou, its not very hard just dont have kamae with the small sword, i hitted the smal ona so he got tired in his arm and his Kamae raised a little after every men so i did men dou whent by and got the pointAllow me to introduce you to our kancho sometime. At 5-dan, jigeiko with him doing nito is more of a matter of self-preservation than strategy.

[Inouye02]

Sato vs Matthew Raymond (this one is great)
http://kummisa.cafe24.com/10/10-6.wmv

From the other thread.lets not forget Moocow ( So Cal ) vs Tanaka ( bellevue ) and the Moocow " Sayonara " Do hit..oh yeah last years Steveston Tournament, every match was great,

SCI Rocks !!

[DCPan]

lets not forget Moocow ( So Cal ) vs Tanaka ( bellevue ) and the Moocow " Sayonara " Do hit..oh yeah last years Steveston Tournament, every match was great,

SCI Rocks !!

LOL, that one is bloody, but it isn't online. :wink:

The tenken moocow match was awesome too!

FWIW.

[Inouye02]

LOL, that one is bloody, but it isn't online. :wink:

The tenken moocow match was awesome too!

FWIW.no its in my archives,

[Kirin]

Found japanese site for 'vs nito" (if you can read japanese)
lots of anti-nito movies ~

ttp://jaki.gozaru.jp/