Kakarigeiko

[Nishi]

Sooo,
How many cuts is enough?:devious: And besides my own narrow minded opinions, does anybody else have any deep insight into why we do such evil things to ourselves in kendo?
:evil:
This thread has been inspired by the "militant sensie" discussions
and i would love to hear some trully profound reasons to why "you feel" we do this exercise.





_____________
yamae........tsuki!

[alexpollijr]

Call me masochist, but I believe that kakarigeiko is the most fundamental practice for yudansha kendoka.

I don't think that we can come to an agreement as to how many strikes are enough. When the strikes start to becomo sloppy then it's too much. Most people stand about half a minute, for what I've seen.

To me, kakarigeiko has taught most shikake waza skills which I lacked deeply (and still do, thought not SO deeply). Some people tend to wait only and thus become 'reaction-only' fighters , losing the power to take the initiative when needed. That's where kakari geiko jumps in.

[JSchmidt]

How many cuts?..depends on the person & situation. (ie, if you know you're going to lots of sets, then until breath starts to run short, only a few, until they stop breathing:D)
This goes for whether I'm recieving or doing it.
The way I've been taught to do it, is when it gets really hard, you have to make sure you cut correctly. Yes, it will be slower and bigger, but (allegedly) your body will remember what you do when you are exhausted better than what you do when you are fresh and will automaticly start to preserve energy.
This will make the footwork and cuts much smoother, as you are trying to move as effeciently as possible and thus improving your kendo.
Second part is mentality...partly commitment, but also as Alex writes, about learning to attack.
Last bit is obviously stamina.
Yes, I hate doing it and yet I think it's one of best exercises for kendo there is (next to kirikaeshi).

Jakob

[Steve]

kakarigeiko trains us to rely on techniques we know without having to think about them. When it comes to a split second decision, we (as humans) will do what our body is most used to doing, or what our instincts drive us to do. For example most beginners to kendo fear being hit and will instinctively "block" incoming strikes.

Kakarigeiko trains our bodies to "re-define" what our instincts "should" be in the setting of a Kendo match; attacking with simple, basic techniques. Learning to do these on reflex is the key to capitalizing on the fleetingly short "openings" our opponents give us during matches. If you have to think about hitting the opening you see, you're too late. It'll be gone before you can do anything.

It also shows very clearly what our weaknesses are. If you are not confident in say your ability to do a kote strike, then under the conditions kakarigeiko places you, you won't instinctively go for a kote. You'll strike what you are most comfortable with. If you watch a session of kakarigeiko between beginners and one kendoka only ever tries Men, then that says they may need work on their other strikes. problems with Maai, footwork, posture, and grip all become very clear as well.

In this sense kakarigeiko is a method to help locate and address problems both subtle and gross, making it a very valuble tool.

It teaches our bodies not to "fear" initiating an attack (hesitation), as well as not to "fear" being hit by our opponent. The ever elusive "forward thinking" as many sensei like to word it. Quite possibly one of the most difficult aspects of Kendo to become accustomed to.

And hey, its great exercise!

[kendo_chick]

I don't think that there should be a limit on the number of strike that you attempt during kakarigeiko. Ever time that I have done this drill it has been timed to between 30 secs and 2 minutes.

It is great, as Steve said, for training our mind to act on reflexes, rather then on planning everything.

[Karaken]

Let me aks a question. I have very weak arms so when I tried Boxing, it was very hard for me to keep my gloves up. When I play Tennis, even when I'm tired, I can swing with my body.
However, I think Kendo is closer to boxing than Tennis. Or I just don't know how to raise my sword with my body(?)

ANy rate, we do Kakarigeiko lining up to all senseis - 30 seconds each for all yudansha lined up - That could mean 6-7 minutes non-stop for kyu students. I think it's good for building characters but at times it's embarassing not to be able to maintain your Kamae.

Where's popye's spinach can?

[Steve]

If a kyu does that until they are shodan, they won't get tired anymore after 6-7 minutes! like i said, everything else aside, its great exercise.

[Nishi]

I just wondering, after reading some of the posts, what changes do you think are happening in sombody's mind as they do kakarigeiko over the years.....surley it cant be all physical!

I do like the opinions on hesitation though, kakarigeiko definatley rids kendo of the 4 sickness's.

[Old Warrior]

"kakarigeiko"

I don't know what this is for 2 reasons: 1) I'm an ignorant beginner, and 2) I take Kumdo

Could someone please explain what it is.

[sminki]

kakarigeiko is called "yon sok gong gyuk" in korean. it is type of training where your sensei/sempai stands there receiving your blows and while you just attack continuously (clean, textbook attacks going straight in while sensei/sempai shows you where to attack by exposing (for the lack of better word) men, kote or do). if i'm not being very clear, ask your seong sensei what "yon sok gong gyuk" is. it is an integral part of training kendo/kumdo.

[alexpollijr]

Wait there sminki, when the motodachi 'opens' the target it's uchikomi geiko, isn't it?

Kakarigeiko is when you employ shikake waza to create your own openings, and the motodachi attacks every now and then.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Motodachi creates openings for kakari-geiko. I'm not sure what the "official" definition for uchikomigeiko is but in our club it's always been "machine-gun" attack practice, just attack as hard and fast as you can without much concern to openings.

[Old Warrior]

Forgive my ignorance. Two people face off in Chudan. One attacks the other at designated targets chosen by the attackee? Or, the attacker hits men and kote while the attackee does nothing? Is one of those, you have to see to understand?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Teacher side ("motodachi") opens for the student side. Open shinai off to the teacher's right means hit men, to the left means kote or kote-men, lift up means doh. Student hits the indicated point, goes through and turns around and by that time teacher has turned around and provided a new opening. Rinse, lather, repeat.

[Steve]

I've heard two different names, but I'm not sure they are correct.

1) Kakari-geiko = one person attacks continuously at exposed targets.

2) Ai Kakari-geiko = both people attack simultaneously.

In our club, when we do "kakari-geiko" we always do the one where BOTH people attack continuously unless otherwise specified.

[sminki]

I believe that my definition was pretty accurate as some others in this forum seemed to have written. There are a number of these terms with very fine differences, for example, hikitate keiko being another one where the senior/attackee guides the junior/attacker in receiving strikes. However, I seem to get at least some indications of openings by my seniors during kakarikeiko which made me describe it as I did.

Old Warrior, note that all these collectively are called "yon sok gong gyuk" in Korean. The attacker will continuously attack where there is an opening (either indicated by the attackee or in cases where not indicated, try to make an opening) while the attackee just stands and receives. Once in a while, if you're doing something wrong (such as not strong enough center, etc.), the attackee will strike in the weakness created by such mistakes to make the point that the attacker is vulnerable as such.

Don't worry. If you haven't done them yet, Seong sensei will make you do it soon enough and it'll all be clear. :D

[Nishi]

I think in Britian we also treat kakarigeiko like "machne gun attacking" but i think the real lesson in kakarigeiko is "how do you continue", and can you still keep the quality in your kendo under this type of pressure.

I was under the impression the uchikomigieko was teacher opening obvious targets and leading the student through controlled attack practice, and kakarigieko was (as Niel said) "machine gun waza". However, i am doubting myself now and will look into the matter :)

[KhawMengLee]

The one that kills me is the one breath kakarigeiko. Four motodachi and each one you attack as much as you can for one breath.

eg. kiai "Meeeeeeee(kote)eeee(hiki men)eeeee(men)eeee(kote men)eeeeennnn!!!!(pass out)"


My sensei says this exercise is good and neccesary for learning about attacking.

[Phorest]

Yeah...I know what you mean Meng.

My teacher had me doing this for my second time in bogu and I nearly died right there. He would just keep saying "One more time, and get it all in one breath this time without stopping."

UGH!

He said "If you run out of breath before the edn...that is because you aren't doing it fast enough. If you do the attacks quickly you won't have to use as much wind."

[ben]

Kakarigeiko is really, really good training IMHO. It still scares me shitless though, because I feel like I might die, or worse, do a cruciate ligament. Whether or not the motodachi makes the opening or not, my understanding of kakarigeiko is that you attack them with your whole body/spirit, without asking for an invitation, like you're a tornado going to destroy everything in its path. If you can raise that kind of feeling in your kakarigeiko, as well as developing stamina, you improve your seme for shiai/jigeiko.

b

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Phorest
He said "If you run out of breath before the edn...that is because you aren't doing it fast enough. If you do the attacks quickly you won't have to use as much wind."
Hate to keep beating on the same old drum but at this stage I would be more worried about correct attacks rather than fast. One breath exercises are good for you but if they come at the expense of form, suck in another breath in the middle somewhere.