iaido/aikido connection

[burger boy]

Hi everybody,
I was watching a TV show last night about different martial arts and one of the arts discussed was aikido. What I found so interesting was that the teacher of this school also taught his students iaido. After watching the program, I recalled a conversation I had with a fellow kendo student who studies aikido and he mentioned something about using a bokken in aikido class. He definitely said aikido, not iaido.

I was wondering if anyone could comment on the relationship between iaido and aikido. I'm confused and intrigued....

Thanks.

burger boy

[Kent Enfield]

Originally posted by burger boy
I was wondering if anyone could comment on the relationship between iaido and aikido. I'm confused and intrigued....There is none. It's just that some people practice both.

[alexpollijr]

Aikido has 'weapon's practice' for advanced students. That includes the bokken. The aikido bokken has a special shape to it, different from the kendo/iaido one.

[Phorest]

See this article:

http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_stenudd_0801.htm

[Paburo]

the creator of aikido o-sensei Ueshiba was also a fine kenjutsuka. so he incorporated some sword techniques into aikido to help students understand the circular movements required for proper 'nage-waza'.

when i was in aikido the bokuto(bokken) we used was exactly the same as any other bokuto. we did special kata and kamae too.

burger boy, maybe you didn't really see iaido in that aikido class on tv, but bokuto techniques used in aikido(that are often called 'aikiken', ring any bells?).

read more here:
http://www.kjartan.org/swordfaq/section01.html#b

[Nishi]

Aikido waza is based on the sword....if an aikidoka holds a sword his techniques dont change greatly. As for foot work there are similarities as well.

Aikidoka practice alot of waza from sieza position called suwuriwaza, this is to help strengthen the lower body, Iaido is an excellent compliment to anybody training in aikido (and visaversa).

Many Aikido waza can be broken down into iaido terms, for instance, its not unusual to hear aikidoka saying things like "draw the sword, raise the sword and cut down" In aikido, when your wrists are grabbed, many times you will turn your hands toward your waist, like you where drawing a sword, then you might raise your hands above your head,as if about to cut down, and the actual cut is nage or throw.

Aikido and Iaido are closley related.

[R A Sosnowski]

Aiki-ken is a practice done by Aikido-ka using a Bokken to reinforce certain principles of Aikido, especially with respect to empty-hands Waza.

Aiki-ken does not particularly pay attention to the the principles of good swordsmanship that you find in Iaido. Reiho is generally poor to non-existent.

Although somewhat related, Aiki-ken and Iaido are different in the details, especially with respect to cutting.

At one point in my Aikido training, I had to choose between Aiki-ken and Iaido & Kendo because Aiki-ken was corrupting my Iaido and Kendo Waza, and I decided to drop Aiki-ken (after I had learned the Iwama syllabus, part of the Meiji syllabus, and part of the AAA syllabus taken from Shin Shin Toitsu or Ki- Aikido), a choice that I have never regretted.

The oral tradition has it that Aiki-ken comes from Katori Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu. In any Kenjutsu, the assumption is that the blade is out of the Saya, ready for use. In Iaido, the emphasis is on the draw (and the resheathing or Noto). Between the draw and Noto, Iaido is essentially no different from Kenjutsu.

Aiki-ken is not a complete system of swordsmanship; many Aikido-ka like to believe that it is.

Many Aikido-ka, that I have known, use the Bokken in a manner similar to the Aiki-jo (staff), as a blunt weapon rather than as the edged weapon that it represents.

The only Aiki-ken-related training that has had real value to me was Tachi-dori (or sword taking) because of the emphasis on Ma-ai (distance and timing) in executing the techniques.

I cannot say that I am impressed with
http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_stenudd_0801.htm
as far as the results; however, I will say that I admire him for trying.

YMMV.

[mingshi]

I thought the difference between the shapes of Bokken only relates to their respective Koryu...?

Check out www.bokkenshop.com

[R A Sosnowski]

Mingshi,

Originally posted by mingshi
I thought the difference between the shapes of Bokken only relates to their respective Koryu...?

Check out www.bokkenshop.com

In my experience, you are correct.

I too do not understand what the following means

Originally posted by
alexpollijr
Aikido has 'weapon's practice' for advanced students. That includes the bokken. The aikido bokken has a special shape to it, different from the kendo/iaido one.

In my experience, the same Bokken is used for Kendo, Iaido and Aikido. Some Aikido schools prohibit the use of the plastic Tsuba and rubber retaining ring, others encourage it, and still others don't care, making it optional.

We should note that the Aiki-ken curriculum has never been standardized - there are many versions of Aiki-ken being taught; I have full notes on one version (Iwama style of the late Saito-s.) and parts of three others in my old Aikido weapons notebooks of the 1990's. I do know that some Aikido schools have adopted the Kashima Shinryu style Bokuto - it is straight, thick (almost round), and a bit heavier with a big wooden Tsuba. We had used it for a while, but only for a specific set of Kata; otherwise, the ordinary Bokken was used.

Also, Aikido schools vary as to who can study Aiki-ken. Some, as alexpollijr mentions, restrict Aiki-ken training to advanced students. Others, including my former Dojo, open the training to anyone who has finished their introductory training in the beginner's classes.

HTH.

[Nishi]

The Aiki-ken waza draw alot of insperation from Yagyu shinkage-ryu, and i believe at some point the Yagyu did have specific shaped bokken for training, however i think these days it is more of a marketing ploy or a preference than a historical fact......

[R A Sosnowski]

Originally posted by Nishi
The Aiki-ken waza draw alot of insperation from Yagyu shinkage-ryu, and i believe at some point the Yagyu did have specific shaped bokken for training, however i think these days it is more of a marketing ploy or a preference than a historical fact......

This is the first time I have heard the claim for Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

I have heard claims for the Kashima Shinto Ryu, and its cousin, the Katori Shinto Ryu, and seen them in writing. I have seen the Katori Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu kata demonstrated, and the cuts were identical as those used in Iwama-ha Aiki-ken.

The physical aspects of Aikido were derived from the Daito Ryu [Aiki-]Jujutsu, the art of the Aizu-han as taught by Sokaku Takeda (Ueshiba O-sensei's teacher, the grandfather of Aikido), and is proportedly derived from a branch of Itto Ryu swordsmanship (Itto Ryu is the basis of Kendo).

Yagyu Shinkage Ryu has a distinctly shaped Bokuto: the cross-section decreases from the Tsuba to the Kissaki, giving it a tapered look, and a very light feel.

YSR also has a distinct Shinai, the Fukuro Shinai; see "Sword, Bokken, and Shinai" (http://www.bujindesign.com/newsletter/2000.03.vol2/art3.shtml) by Hiroshi Ikeda - it credits Mitsugi Saotome, the head of the Aikido Schools of Ueshiba (ASU), with introducing the Fukuro Shinai into Aikido practice. [Bujin Designs (http://www.bujindesign.com/catalog.html), an Aikido supplier, sells Fukuro Shinai.]

Saotome-s. also has used the Kashima Shinryu Bokuto in his Aiki-ken, as seen in his student's book, The Spiritual Foundations of Aikido by William Gleason.

Saotome-s. continues to modify his Aiki-ken practice; his latest offering is "TWO SWORDS OF AIKIDO," available from Aikido Today Magazine/Arete Press (http://www.aiki.com/). As I have not seen this videotape yet, I cannot say how much this is related to Miyamoto Musashi's Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu. As I have had the opportunity to practice HNIR Kenjutsu, I would be able to recognise it.

HTH.

[Kingu]

Originally posted by mingshi
I thought the difference between the shapes of Bokken only relates to their respective Koryu...?



Iwamaryu aikido style uses a special shaped bokken, at first sight, it nearly looks like a stick.


http://tozando.com/eng/aikido/abwo.html

[R A Sosnowski]

Originally posted by Kingu

Iwamaryu aikido style uses a special shaped bokken, at first sight, it nearly looks like a stick.
http://tozando.com/eng/aikido/abwo.html

As I understand it, Iwama-ha Aiki-ken has evolved over the years. My Aikido teachers taught a pre-1990 version that used the standard Bokken used for Kendo and Iaido that I, in turn, taught. Saito-s. spent the 1990's teaching a new version of Aiki-ken and Aiki-jo (modified from his previous versions of Ken and Jo) that had a structured curriculum and five levels of grades for his style of Aiki-buki (Aikido weapons). Our Aikido Dojo sponsored several seminars with a recognized instructor of this new version. However, we still used standard Bokken for this.

Currently Iwama-ha Aiki-ken appears to use a Bokuto borrowed from Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu, characterized by the blunt tip, that you see on the Tozando website. This type of Bokuto is not evident in Saito-s.'s early seminal works Traditional Aikido in the first two (1973, 1974) of five volumes, and Aikido: Its Heart and Appearance (1975). It is, however, evident in what I believe to be his final book before he passed away last year, Takemusu Aikido - Volume 5: Bukidori & Ninindori (2001).

HTH.