The ambience of your dojo [Archive]

joekc6nlx

21st June 2005, 01:06 AM

My sensei believes in letting you know immediately if you have done something wrong. He also tells you what you should do to correct the error. There is no physical punishment, such as he received while growing up in Tokyo dojos, but he gets his point across.

He commands respect in the dojo, not because he is 7th dan, kyoshi, and has been doing kendo for over 50 years, but because he treats his students with respect. If he sees you are trying hard to do proper kendo, he makes sure that you are getting the best instruction he can give. He will not waste time on someone who half-heartedly does their kendo, no matter how often they attend class.

Every member of my dojo has the attitude of being both a teacher and a learner. The senior students, not necessarily the sempai, help out the beginners, teaching them basic etiquette, how to carry the shinai, etc. It's up to the sempai or sensei to teach the beginners the basic strokes with the shinai, the footwork, etc. When I was first starting, our assistant sensei, 6th dan, renshi, was our motodachi. He was extremely patient with us, and always encouraged us when we needed a lift. If we made a mistake, he didn't rebuke us, he politely told us what we had done wrong. When we did something right, he politely told us that we did well!

That kind of treatment in a dojo seems to me to be much more effective than hitting one on the wrists, forearms, or back of the head. Physical punishment doesn't make one a better kendoka, it makes one a bruised and sometimes resentful kendoka. Maybe it's like the "battered child" syndrome - the child grows up and becomes a parent to another "battered child", etc. Just because we were taught one way doesn't mean it's the best way or the only way.

Since kendo is about perfecting yourself, and exists in a world of respect for oneself, one's sensei, and those who have gone before, then physical punishment has no place in our dojo. Our sensei cultivates a healthy atmosphere of mutual respect, of learning, and of proper kendo.

That isn't to say we don't have fun, because our sensei is a partyer!

JoonShik

21st June 2005, 01:29 AM

At the dojo I attend, my sensei teaches by group, but he looks at everybody in different ways. He will give personal instruction to those who look like they need it, unlike this one dojo I used to go to, they just teach a good 40-50 person group and not care for what other people do. So, I think getting that personal instruction is good, you can't hide from this man.

SkippyDaStudent

21st June 2005, 01:33 AM

I have to agree with joe here. Most of what he posted applies to our dojo and sensei as well (the only part I'm not exactly sure about is Sensei's rank).

In the two weeks I have been practicing kendo and iaido/iaijutsu, the sempai and sensei have all been more than kind to me, while teaching me how to do everything properly. There is a friendly atmosphere among everyone in the dojo, which I think has something to do with the fact that everyone goes to a nearby pub for drinks after training. Occasionally, a sempai gives me a look, during kata or something else, like "why am I stuck with this kid?", which is to be expected.

That's my two cents.

mingshi

21st June 2005, 01:41 AM

SkippyDaStudent

21st June 2005, 01:43 AM

joekc6nlx

21st June 2005, 03:03 AM

Jenny, those are ways of showing a student that they have a weakness. A solid tsuki 10 times from a sensei should begin to dawn on the student's brain that they are wide open for such a thrust.

My gripe is with people who think that because a student didn't get it right the first time, they need some incentive, such as a whack with a shinai on the back of the head. That might have been the way in the old days, but it isn't the right way now.

Any sempai who is "stuck" with a beginner should also realize that by teaching a beginner, the sempai also learns how good of a teacher they are. I never give up an opportunity to learn, whether it's from a sensei, sempai, or a shoshinsha. Everybody in our dojo has taught me something, whether they realize it or not, sometimes it's something I observe and internalize, but often, I have to be told myself. After 15 months of kendo, I'm still only a beginner, not really ready for the "big leagues".

nodachi

21st June 2005, 08:53 AM

I know that it helps when people come in with the right attitude to begin with, but all my sensei, past and present, have been able to command respect and run practice with a fun, light atmosphere, but where you follow commands quickly, do what you are told, and try your best. Should people (mostly young beginning kendoka) start to get distracted, a stern look from the sensei is enough to turn them back on track without beating them. If they simply are too distracted or can't hear, they may get a light hearted tap on the men from a nearby shinai, but not with the intention of beating them into militaristic attention. I have never seen any need for anything harsher than these two options because all the people I have trained with are still able to train earnestly /seriously while smiling and keeping things fun.

Yiu Fai

21st June 2005, 09:07 AM

piggy

21st June 2005, 11:22 AM

based on what i have read, i guess our dojo is pretty lenient so long as respect is given. in the experience i've had with the different senseis, some of them use mild humor to teach us and others and more strict. he humor blended with disclipline gives our dojo a great atmosphere for me at least. it makes me wish that i could go to kendo everyday. even when we are pushed to do our hardest, i still enjoy it greatly.
i think that another thing that makes our dojo a fun place to be is that all of the people in our dojo have great attitudes. the head sensei especially has great charisma.
i watched kendo quite a bit before i decided to join and from the sidelines, honestly it didnt look that fun but when i joined, i found that it was extremely enjoyable and that with fun, it delivered disclipline at the same time.
occasionally when a student is out of line, based on thier experience in dojo ettiquete, will either be kindly reminded of what is proper or a bit more harshly delt with so that they know what they have done.
overall, i'd have to say that the ambience of our dojo is discliplined but at the same time, super-awsome!

Michael_St_A

21st June 2005, 07:57 PM

Personally, I would avoid a simple opposition of kindness v. hardness. A good teacher will vary his/her approach in the view of individuals' and groups' changing needs.

Of course, there are certain methods that are not 'on' in certain areas. There is - for example - no way we would accept physical punishment in our dojo. A good telling off is nevertheless one tool in the teacher's box. It also depends on temperament. Some sensei and sempai prefer to maintain psychological pressure at all times, others are more generous with praise.

:-)

mingshi

21st June 2005, 08:28 PM

...such as a whack with a shinai on the back of the head. That might have been the way in the old days, but it isn't the right way now.
...Here we go again. Western methods for eduation might have been the modern influence, but don't forget kendo is also a traditional martial art...

think it's not so much what my sensei tells me to do, its how he goes about doing it thats the topic at hand :smiley:
To me is more like how YOU take what the sensei/sempai is doing. I am sure you get more missed kote cuts from kohai than whacks on the back of your head.

ZealUK

21st June 2005, 08:41 PM

...Here we go again. Western methods for eduation might have been the modern influence, but don't forget kendo is also a traditional martial art...

Japanese methods don't always apply though. My Iaido sensei just got back from Japan. They were told Iai should be done without kneepads no matter what the floor is like, and that students should be literally crying by the time they finish their training because they have been broken down so hard.

If this method was adopted in the West, people simply wouldn't come back.

Having said this, budo isn't table tennis. You've got to be ready to take a bollocking or some punishment. "Stand in line, take your medicine from sensei, then bow and say thankyou."

The great I AM

21st June 2005, 08:49 PM

...Here we go again. Western methods for eduation might have been the modern influence, but don't forget kendo is also a traditional martial art...

To me is more like how YOU take what the sensei/sempai is doing. I am sure you get more missed kote cuts from kohai than whacks on the back of your head.

Although kendo is a traditional martial art, it doesn't mean that it has to be taught in the traditional ways, such as the second paragraph that you wrote, ie you have to watch everything the sensei/senpai does and pick up from that. I agree that you should watch them, but I also believe it is the responsibilty of the teacher to inform the student as well, and not just assume that they'll get it eventually if I keep doing it to them. With the example of the tsuki you mentioned before, even in that example, a decent teacher would exercise moderation and stop them after a while and let them know why its happening. I personally think it would be a bit sadistic to keep battering someone like that continually without informing them after a couple of times why it is happening. They may learn that there is a problem, but without the sensei telling them what exactly the problem is, how are they supposed to fix it? By themselves? With guess work? It doesn't work like that.

And the "traditional way" of teaching kendo has brought about bullying in dojos by some unresponsible senpai (I've seen this myself in a dojo in London where they thought they were teaching their students in a traditional way). Punching people or inflicting willful physical harm on people will only achieve one thing, and that is forcing people out of the dojo. The "traditional way" can still give us some good things, but it also has some terrible sides to it, and physical violence is one of them. I hate to see people who would otherwise be enjoying kendo quitting because some misguided fool thought that they were doing the right thing by hurting people on purpose in an attempt to teach something.

You can keep the tradition of a martial art alive and kicking without having to resort to beating people up in the name of teaching. Kendo should be taught and enjoyed, not enforced and feared. Leave that to the Kokushikan students.

hyuna

21st June 2005, 11:04 PM

Although kendo is a traditional martial art, it doesn't mean that it has to be taught in the traditional ways
Actually, it does. If you don't maintain the tradition of the art, including the way it is taught, in what way is it a traditional martial art?

That said, you have to be a master of the art to say if a whack on the back of the head is, in fact, a traditional method. Let me explain that in a different way. We practice with bare feet on wood floor. Say there is a dojo who has no access to suitable floors, so they practice with sandals on grass. But, in all other ways practice is the same. Is this less traditional? Is the actual kind of floor and footwear important to the tradition? In the same way, is the whack on the head an important part of the tradition? Or is it simply a technique used in accordance with the tradition?

ZealUK

21st June 2005, 11:40 PM

Actually, it does. If you don't maintain the tradition of the art, including the way it is taught, in what way is it a traditional martial art?

Teaching methods have changed though, as has the art. You don't see people ripping each others men off and throwing people to the ground anymore. Now there are three referees instead of one. Even the kata have changed since the pre-war period.

So I guess by your line of argument, Kendo isn't traditional any more?

hyuna

22nd June 2005, 12:15 AM

So I guess by your line of argument, Kendo isn't traditional any more?
You should reread my second paragraph... Is ripping men off an integral part of kendo tradition? Is having 1 referee instead of 3 an integral part of kendo tradition? Etc.

I am just saying that something that is traditional must follow its tradition. That is not so much making an argument as it is pointing out an obvious contradiction in what you said earlier.

I think it is a serious and reasonable question: how traditional is kendo after the many changes it has gone through? Kendo is not very traditional at all compared to koryu. And, does it matter? But, that is a whole different discussion. "Traditional" means "following tradition."

mingshi

22nd June 2005, 12:52 AM

ZealUK

22nd June 2005, 01:05 AM

You should reread my second paragraph...

OK, I reread it. I see what you mean now.

Tradition in this sense could be seen as the transmission of knowledge from teacher to student. Therefore the teacher deems what is to be maintained as tradition, and this is what is passed on.

Theodore

22nd June 2005, 01:10 AM

When I was in medical school we would frequently be on call for 36 hours straight with 12 hours off and then repeat. I regarded it the same as basic training. But when I was assisting in surgery (holding a retractor - typical student stuff) and was rapped across the knuckles by the surgeon and THEN told to pull harder, I looked at him, saif "F*** this sh**", threw down the retractor and left. I was an adult and didn't need to be treated like a kid. He complained to the department chairman who complained to the dean. I was called in for a chat. When the whole thing was over I was the one who received an apology.

We need to treat adults in the States differently than kids. Jeff Marsten-sensei said it best (http://www.kendo-pnkf.org/clubs/jmarsten.phtml):

People do not come to kendo to be treated like they are something less because they do not have the ability to hit someone with a stick. These adults are already contributing successfully in their professional lives and should be given respect and credit for that.

I know very little about kendo. But I have more than a few gray hairs, have 3 doctorates, and was a successful western fencer for over 40 years. I've raised 4 kids who have turned out to be responsible, productive adults in their own right. Stroud-sensei expects a lot of me and I try to deliver but despite my kendo faults he treats me like a man. I respect him all the more for doing so. "Train hard, have fun" is his motto.

Nanbanjin

22nd June 2005, 01:14 AM

"Traditionally" girls weren't allowed to play kendo. Nothing is unchangable and sometimes change occurs in unexpected ways. Even traditions change.

As far as ambience goes, I'm not terribly fond of instructors who are hyper-critical. There's no point in telling someone they are doing something wrong if they already know they are doing it wrong, of if they are not capable of comprehending what it is they are doing. It takes a lot of repetition to find a point of harmony in a technique and ill-placed advice tends only to encourage dischord. By the same token I'm not too fond of "no-pain, no-gain" philosophies. Being able to push yourself or even to be taken by someone else beyond your own limits is not necessarily a bad thing, but if approached without some degree of consideration it can tend towards fanaticism and cruelty.

Neil Gendzwill

22nd June 2005, 01:24 AM

This has been an interesting read. As an instructor, it's hard to find a balance. Usually, I'll point out the weakness physically (the aforementioned tsuki or whatever) and then if no self-correction is applied I'll explain. Of course the Japanese way would be no explanation, ever. Which is better? I think the latter produces better kendoka, who can self-correct, self-analyse and more to the point pay attention. I worry that my students don't think enough, and rely on me to tell them eventually. OTOH I find it very frustrating to see them simply not getting it, so I explain. But then even after the explanation they still don't correct so was the explanation worth it? Until they figure it out for themselves and understand it at some level deeper than surface, they won't really fix it. Anyways, ongoing internal debate.

Back to the original, off-topic discussion of abuse - I don't condone it, but as has been said before we aren't playing tiddlywinks here. Physical short hand is required. If you're not going through fast enough, I'll give you a shove in the back or a wack on the head from behind (not on the unprotected part). If you're being lazy, I'll make you run harder. If I feel like you need to show some more spirit, it'll be aigakari and you'll get the worst of it. This is kendo, like it or lump it.

Nanbanjin

22nd June 2005, 01:49 AM

Of course the Japanese way would be no explanation, ever. Which is better? I think the latter produces better kendoka, who can self-correct, self-analyse and more to the point pay attention. I worry that my students don't think enough, and rely on me to tell them eventually. OTOH I find it very frustrating to see them simply not getting it, so I explain. But then even after the explanation they still don't correct so was the explanation worth it? Until they figure it out for themselves and understand it at some level deeper than surface, they won't really fix it. Anyways, ongoing internal debate.

You could argue that because people in the West start kendo relatively late, they need to be made to think more about what they are doing to make up for what they don't pick up naturally. But then again maybe this is actually counter productive.

I still think the Japanese method of not explaining is better, even for westerners. If you feel frustrated that people just don't get it maybe your expectations are too high (I sure know the feeling though!). Is it really reasonable to expect that people who start kendo in adulthood will become experts at kendo? Some people will want to become so, and some will have natural talent. As long as they have the right environment these people will largely take care of themselves. But what is the right environment? I think it's a mistake to feel that people in a club who are slow learners are necessarily a burden. Such people may in reality never improve greatly, but letting your frustration interfere with their enjoyment of kendo is your problem, not theirs.

On the other hand, naturally gifted players who are overly competitive might actually prove to be damaging to a club. For a club to produce truely skilled players might take decades, and this only with the ongoing dedication of current members. If too much attention is given to the odd shooting star or golden child in the present it might steer the club from striking the mother load which is many years of hard work down the track.

Neil Gendzwill

22nd June 2005, 01:53 AM

I don't feel the slow learners to be a burden, just the opposite in fact. The naturally gifted people tend to quit when they find out that they can't simply rely on their talent to carry them through, as they have done so often before. The less talented simply keep on grinding, like they've always had to do, and if they're persistent they will get it. I'm a living example because lord knows I'm not blessed with too much talent.

Nanbanjin

22nd June 2005, 02:06 AM

But the talented one's can make us feel so good! If we close out eyes and concentrate hard enough we can actually make ourselves believe it's us that are making them do it properly. All the more so if they start winning competitions.

What's really satisfying though is to see someone who you mightn't have given much chance starting to really improve after years of practice. The insights they
gain sometimes adds to your own.

JByrd

22nd June 2005, 02:49 AM

Great thread, thanks to you all for the insight. I just have a few random thoughts to throw out there for your comments and criticism.

I think that the tradition of how Kendo is taught, and the ambiance of the dojo are separate, though related, issues. Teaching methods like kirikaeshi, kakarigeiko, uchikomi geiko, etc. are part of the traditional pedagogy of Kendo. The demeanor of the teacher is not so much a part of the tradition, but it is related because it helps to create the environment in which the lessons are delivered.

As some of you have mentioned, it is important to take an individual approach with individuals. One student will benefit more from pressure and criticism, another from praise, so a teacher must be a shrewd judge of character. I am convinced that there have been times when my teacher told me what I most needed to hear, rather than the actual, objective, truth.

Though it is important to have some flexibility in how one delivers lessons and advice to individual students, I think a teacher needs to have a consistent demeanor. A teacher who is relaxed and joking one day, then dogmatic and critical the next, makes students uncomfortable. Nobody likes the uncertainty of not knowing whether it is Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde who has come to the dojo that day.

Of course every teacher is just a person, and cannot convincingly maintain a demeanor that is inconsistent with his or her personality. However much I would like to, I can never be the kind of teacher that my teacher was. One thing about Kendo is that it tends to strip us down to who we really are, whether teacher or student.

One last thought: Though the teacher is very influential, the students themselves have a huge effect on the spirit of the dojo. I have seen situations where an influential student (even a brand new beginner!) has lifted the spirit of a club noticeably. Every member contributes to the spirit of the dojo, whether they think they do or not.

Theodore

22nd June 2005, 03:14 AM

Back to the original, off-topic discussion of abuse - I don't condone it, but as has been said before we aren't playing tiddlywinks here. Physical short hand is required. If you're not going through fast enough, I'll give you a shove in the back or a wack on the head from behind (not on the unprotected part). If you're being lazy, I'll make you run harder. If I feel like you need to show some more spirit, it'll be aigakari and you'll get the worst of it. This is kendo, like it or lump it.

I'm down with that approach. But when I put my hands up in the X because I'm totally out of gas, then I'm done. A 57 year-old has to pay attention to what his body is telling him and when keiko gets your heart rate to 90% of MHR you're not training, you're staggering.

As some of you have mentioned, it is important to take an individual approach with individuals. One student will benefit more from pressure and criticism, another from praise, so a teacher must be a shrewd judge of character. I am convinced that there have been times when my teacher told me what I most needed to hear, rather than the actual, objective, truth.

Though it is important to have some flexibility in how one delivers lessons and advice to individual students, I think a teacher needs to have a consistent demeanor. A teacher who is relaxed and joking one day, then dogmatic and critical the next, makes students uncomfortable. Nobody likes the uncertainty of not knowing whether it is Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde who has come to the dojo that day.

Great point Jon. Inconsistency on the dojo floor will ruin things. No "friends or buddys" in class, you gotta be serious. Bartell-sensei (Goju-ryu and Shotokan) is lots of fun outside of class but he's all business in it. And don't even think of yawning in class. You'll do pushups until your arms fall off.

Outside of class is another matter.

ratdeau

22nd June 2005, 06:28 AM

joekc6nlx

22nd June 2005, 08:32 AM

just tenacious (is it an English word?).

It is. :)

Yiu Fai

22nd June 2005, 09:48 AM

By no means would I agree with physical or verbal abusive behavior in the dojo (not even a hachidan). What I afraid to see is, the thread-starter (or people in general) thinking a whack on the back of your head is considered unkind, or that if your sensei don't joke or entertain you in the dojo, it'll be considered unfriendly. If you don't enjoy your keiko, will you blame that the dojo is too serious and kendo is no fun?

Once in a while we still got cases of bullying in kendo from Japan, be it at training camps or the police dojo... Nevertheless the rest of the kendo population still go through the hard training they are having. I am sure there is an unwritten standard people generally agree upon, but if the borderline is at "whack of the back of your head" - it's just a bit too low.

I'm personally a fan of the serious approach, I dont joke or laugh in practise half as much as most of my peers do and I certaintly agree with what Neil said about Kendo not being tiddlywinks, a blow to the unprotected part of the men to make me aware of something is definitely something I am not against.

Sorry if I've been possibly misunderstood in anyway, I just wanted to clarify this with you Mingshi. My purpose in starting this thread was to see all the different approaches to learning this fabulous art of ours that we may all have.

The great I AM

22nd June 2005, 08:56 PM

Hello Gibbo-sensei,

I understand where you are coming from, but somehow I think you misunderstood my point... By no means would I agree with physical or verbal abusive behavior in the dojo (not even a hachidan). What I afraid to see is, the thread-starter (or people in general) thinking a whack on the back of your head is considered unkind, or that if your sensei don't joke or entertain you in the dojo, it'll be considered unfriendly. If you don't enjoy your keiko, will you blame that the dojo is too serious and kendo is no fun?

IMHO me getting spot-on tsuki 10 times in a row is already some kind of teaching. It isn't very necessary for the sensei to come over and tell me, "errr, your kamae is off." But then if I get 10 missed tsuki (or when things turn abusive) - I'd have bow off and walked away.

Once in a while we still got cases of bullying in kendo from Japan, be it at training camps or the police dojo... Nevertheless the rest of the kendo population still go through the hard training they are having. I am sure there is an unwritten standard people generally agree upon, but if the borderline is at "whack of the back of your head" - it's just a bit too low.

I'm not so fussed about unkind as unnecessary. As has already been said, just because they can't do it doesn't mean they warrant a thrashing until they finally figure it out. Kendo is a different beast in the west, and at least at UCL, I find the most important thing is for people to enjoy themselves, and via that want to come back and want to learn, and I personally don't see how tsuki-ing somebody until they figure something out can aid that, but like I said this is individual to me. After 3 or 4 times if it was still happening I would stop them and explain where they are going wrong and what they should try to fix it, not simply carry on with the tsuki. Being vigorous and assertive and using your own kendo as the tool with which to teach is effective, I will never disagree with that, but it has to be tempered with effective verbal instruction as well. But thats all in my opinion, its definately a case of horses for courses I think.

The great I AM

22nd June 2005, 09:04 PM

Actually, it does. If you don't maintain the tradition of the art, including the way it is taught, in what way is it a traditional martial art?

That said, you have to be a master of the art to say if a whack on the back of the head is, in fact, a traditional method. Let me explain that in a different way. We practice with bare feet on wood floor. Say there is a dojo who has no access to suitable floors, so they practice with sandals on grass. But, in all other ways practice is the same. Is this less traditional? Is the actual kind of floor and footwear important to the tradition? In the same way, is the whack on the head an important part of the tradition? Or is it simply a technique used in accordance with the tradition?

Oops, double post time. I would have to disagree with you here. Personally, I feel that you can teach the traditions of kendo with out having to resort to things like hitting people on the unprotected parts of their person. If a teacher feels that they have to physically and intentionally inflict pain on a student in order to teach them something, don't you think that is a failing of the teacher? When I started kendo I was never whacked on the head or the arms or the legs when I didn't get something right, they told me how to do it and then made me do it over and over again untill they were happy with it, and made me keep practising that way to further improve. This didn't result in me doing anything that I wouldn't look at as non-traditional (as a seperate thought, what, really, is traditional kendo? Practising what we are, can we call it that? Has it changed beyond recognition? Has it changed at all?). Your second paragraph illustrates this perfectly.

Kingofmyrrh

22nd June 2005, 10:08 PM

Actually, it does. If you don't maintain the tradition of the art, including the way it is taught, in what way is it a traditional martial art?
I'm going to have to disagree as well. I think that this misses the bigger picture completely. Ever since the beginnings of the Pax Tokugawa, the purpose of swordsmanship in Japan (excluding a very few rambunctious characters who popped up every now and then) has been to prepare people to become socially useful individuals, and this is something that continues today. When I was practicing at Keio, the shihan were always talking about 'training to be future leaders' - and they weren't talking about leaders of kendo. With this in mind, instruction methods that deviate from today's educational ideas are incompatible with kendo - the methods of the past may well have produced individuals that were socially useful back then, but they would be unwelcome in modern society. It's my strong belief that this educational element, which, being one of the very few facets of kendo that can be seen to have existed continuously since the 1600s, is the true 'tradition' of kendo. Accordingly, taking a narrow-minded, short-term view and becoming attached to certain teaching methods as 'kendo tradition' can only move kendo further away from what society at large regards as a useful educational practice, and threatens kendo's existence.
You only need to look to Japan to see the truth of this. At schools where they train people to be kendo teachers, there is extensive study of modern educational principles and the position that kendo ought to hold in society. Old practices are being torn down all the time, be it banning drinking during practice, or 'crowbarring' (don't know a better word - it's when you hold your tsuka horizontally and uppercut someone with it in the neck from tsubazeria. It's used by seniors or teachers against juniors, but needless to say it's bad for the neck, and the Kanto Gakusei Kendo Renmei, among others, have officially recommended its cessation). Teachers who prefer older methods are out of favour - a certain S***** sensei (8th dan) was asked to leave a university I know after breaking students' ribs (I've practiced with him myself, and while he is awesomely strong, I thought he was a bit of a brute, and resolved never to ask him for practice again - I want to get strong, but not at the cost of turning out like him).
There may well be martial arts in which training methods themselves are the tradition. I guess you could point to many styles of koryu kenjutsu as examples of this, but the continuing sidelining and shrinking of these disciplines is indicative of the fact that their methods are out of step with the times we live in. I'd like to think that the kendo tradition is somewhat greater than that.

Neil Gendzwill

22nd June 2005, 11:44 PM

I'm down with that approach. But when I put my hands up in the X because I'm totally out of gas, then I'm done. A 57 year-old has to pay attention to what his body is telling him and when keiko gets your heart rate to 90% of MHR you're not training, you're staggering.
Horses for courses, as Gibbo said. I don't make older students run like I do the younger ones. You also have to pay attention to what's happening with the student and realise when they've given all they can. If it's the sort of practice where they're being pushed physically, the ideal situation is where they're thinking towards the end of the keiko "I can't do this" and when it's done they're thinking "I did it!".

hyuna

23rd June 2005, 12:46 AM

I would have to disagree with you here.

I'm going to have to disagree as well. I think that this misses the bigger picture completely. [ ... ] It's my strong belief that this educational element, which, being one of the very few facets of kendo that can be seen to have existed continuously since the 1600s, is the true 'tradition' of kendo.

I am saying something very simple: what does "traditional" mean? It means "following tradition." How can you do a tradtional martial art without following tradition? You cannot. It is a contradiction.

Now, I do not know if hitting people on the back of the head constitutes "kendo tradition" or not, and I am not trying to defend this practice. What I am saying is that it is simply wrong to say that you can practice a traditional martial art without following its traditions. It is an important question, whether or not corporal punishment is part of that tradition. If you value the traditional aspect of kendo, you cannot lightly brush aside things that were done in the past. At the least, you have to ask yourself if that kind of behavior is or is not traditional, or in what way is it traditional.

You cannot maintain a sense of tradition while aribtrarily choosing not to do something simply because it is distasteful to us and inappropriate in our modern culture. It would be like somebody replacing men with football helmets and shinai with foam swords simply because they feel that it would be safer. Does doing something like that compromise "kendo tradition"? I don't know, I leave that question to those who understand kendo better than I. But it is exactly the same question as hitting someone on the back of the head, or making them do pushups as punishment.

Is it possible to teach kendo tradition without hitting people on the back of the head? That obviously depends on what "kendo tradition" really is. I don't know the answer, I am still learning what kendo really is. What I do know is that, since I do not know the answer, I cannot lightly dismiss things that were part of how I learned kendo without compromising its label of "tradition."

It is a whole other question, if kendo is, in fact, "traditional" and if it should be.

The great I AM

23rd June 2005, 12:54 AM

I am saying something very simple: what does "traditional" mean? It means "following tradition." How can you do a tradtional martial art without following tradition? You cannot. It is a contradiction.

Now, I do not know if hitting people on the back of the head constitutes "kendo tradition" or not, and I am not trying to defend this practice. What I am saying is that it is simply wrong to say that you can practice a traditional martial art without following its traditions. It is an important question, whether or not corporal punishment is part of that tradition. If you value the traditional aspect of kendo, you cannot lightly brush aside things that were done in the past. At the least, you have to ask yourself if that kind of behavior is or is not traditional, or in what way is it traditional.

Well, although I have only the most limited and rudimentary experience of training in Japan, so cannot speak for what goes on as the norm there, the teachers I have learned from who have come to the UK have never decided I nead a whack on the head, or a crack on the shins, or any other "incentive". These people include hachidan who have come here and thrashed me to a gibbering wreck incapable of movement, but without hurting me in the process. I'm sure they would argue that they are doing something that they see as traditional, especially when they express happiness at seeing people do something that they regard as a traditional japanese activity. Again this is only my own personal experience, but maybe relevant.

Kingofmyrrh

23rd June 2005, 03:15 AM

...you cannot maintain a sense of tradition while aribtrarily choosing not to do something simply because it is distasteful to us and inappropriate in our modern culture...
And yet that is exactly what Japanese swordsmanship has done throughout history, allowing it to survive to this day. If you need examples, I'll give them, but I have to go to practice right now. It's simply a matter of us disagreeing on what exactly kendo 'tradition' really is. I favour the greater tradition over the piecemeal (although I often get the desire to whack people in the back of the head when they won't do what I've told them to do so many times...).

Theodore

23rd June 2005, 05:15 AM

Horses for courses, as Gibbo said. I don't make older students run like I do the younger ones. You also have to pay attention to what's happening with the student and realise when they've given all they can. If it's the sort of practice where they're being pushed physically, the ideal situation is where they're thinking towards the end of the keiko "I can't do this" and when it's done they're thinking "I did it!".
Gendzwill-sensei,
Nice post. That's the sensation that Stoud-sensei elicits. It's not the quantity of strikes but their quality. He'll work you until you get it right, then let you finish on that high note if you can't do any more.

hyuna

23rd June 2005, 05:50 AM

And yet that is exactly what Japanese swordsmanship has done throughout history, allowing it to survive to this day. If you need examples, I'll give them, but I have to go to practice right now. It's simply a matter of us disagreeing on what exactly kendo 'tradition' really is. I favour the greater tradition over the piecemeal (although I often get the desire to whack people in the back of the head when they won't do what I've told them to do so many times...).
I don't understand what you are trying to say. You start out sounding like you disagree with me, and then you end up saying something that sounds like you are agreeing with me.

I am not expressing any opinion on what kendo tradition really is, so there is no disagreement between us on that point. I've said multiple times now that I do not know what kendo tradition is.

You imply in your response that people simply aribitrarily discard tradition. Then you say that you prefer to follow the "greater tradition" (whatever that means), by which I suppose you mean that there is a tradition being carried on. So is tradition being kept, or is it being aribitrarily discarded?

No doubt some traditions are kept and some are discarded, but presumably some traditions are central to kendo and others are not. That is, the tradition of using a representation of a sword is probably somewhat more important to kendo than the tradition of wearing a hakama. And, the tradition of wearing a hakama is probably more important to kendo than conducting class in Japanese. But, how do you know how to rank these traditions? Maybe actually hakama is more important than the sword. Or maybe they are equal. I don't know.

The point is that saying "Let's get rid of hakama because they look like skirts" is not a trivial thing to say if you care about kendo tradition. It might be true, but it is not trivially discarded. In precisely the same way, saying "Let's not hit people in the back of the head because it is mean and counterproductive" is also not a trivial thing to say if you care about kendo tradition, even though it is true. Unless, of course, you are a high ranking sensei and in a position to know such things like if hakama is a more important, less important, or equally important tradition to anything else. To that end, I think TGIA's comment about his experience in Japan to be a very useful and interesting fact.

As I recall, Hayashi sensei (8 dan hanshi, from Japan) pointed out that the shinai is not a sword at kendo camp last year in answering a question about do-uchiotoshi-men. I always thought the identity of the shinai as the sword was a singularly important aspect of the kendo tradition. So, I just know that I am not in a position to say what traditions are or are not the most important ones.

I was replying originally to a statement that said that traditional martial arts don't have to be taught in traditional ways. I disagree. The thing that makes the martial art traditional is the traditional attitude applied to it. That includes both the method of teaching and the method of learning. That doesn't mean that you cannot do kendo without traditional methods. It just means that maybe that kendo class is not very traditional. That is not meant in a derogatory way -- my own club is not very traditional. It is a simple fact, not a value judgement.

samurai999

23rd June 2005, 06:11 AM

Well reading all of these posts, I'd have to mainly agree with the chupachup warrior.

For me, there comes a time and place to do that sort of "harsh training". I've been whacked on the back on the head, shoved on the back of the head with a shinai, pushed to the ground, scoop tsukied, had a cross-check uppercut that knocked me on my head when doing straight men. However, that was for our team practices during the last kakarigeiko train to make us stronger.

For a beginner just learning the ropes at a local dojo practice, it is usually very discouraging to them to tsuki them, put them on their arse, or whack them on the back of the head or whatever. (ie abusive) For a martial art that is realistically not popular compared to "sporty/flashy" ones like wushu, that just kills us when we are trying to promote our martial art to the public. I've have had parents come up to us saying that kendo was too violent for our kids.

I have seen that people are generally more responsive when they feel that they have gotten something out of practice other than bruises. They feel better generally if 1.) they feel have learned something and 2.) they feel they have gotten a good workout. Bruises are part of kendo. So is a bit of hardship. But sometimes these things go a bit too far. Lastly, in terms of learning kendo, trying to cram traditionalist values into people who are totally alien to it doesn't usually work.

Tim

JByrd

24th June 2005, 05:40 AM

Tradition in this sense could be seen as the transmission of knowledge from teacher to student. Therefore the teacher deems what is to be maintained as tradition, and this is what is passed on.

But since the student becomes the teacher, couldn't we also say it is the student who deems which of the traditions gets passed down? :) As you point out, it is about generational transmission, and so the tradition of Kendo is really in all our hands, students and teachers alike.

Overall I feel pretty good about Kendo's handling of tradition and I'm grateful for the quality of change management shown by the people who have been guiding forces through the years. It seems to me that two of the biggest changes to Kendo pedagogy (the addition of kata, and bokuto ni yoru kihon waza keiko ho) have been primarily designed to strengthen Kendo's incorporation of the tradition of the sword.

piggy

27th June 2005, 12:41 AM

Neil pretty much summed up what i was going to say a few posts ago. but he always does.

Kingofmyrrh

29th June 2005, 09:36 AM

I am not expressing any opinion on what kendo tradition really is, so there is no disagreement between us on that point. I've said multiple times now that I do not know what kendo tradition is.

But you then go on to say:

I was replying originally to a statement that said that traditional martial arts don't have to be taught in traditional ways. I disagree. The thing that makes the martial art traditional is the traditional attitude applied to it. That includes both the method of teaching and the method of learning.

To me that sounds very much like you are saying that traditional methods are, or at the very least are a part of, kendo tradition.

You imply in your response that people simply aribitrarily discard tradition. Then you say that you prefer to follow the "greater tradition" (whatever that means), by which I suppose you mean that there is a tradition being carried on. So is tradition being kept, or is it being aribitrarily discarded?

The greater tradition (whatever that means). Had you taken the time to read my first post, you might have come upon this sentence:

It's my strong belief that this educational element, which, being one of the very few facets of kendo that can be seen to have existed continuously since the 1600s, is the true 'tradition' of kendo.

Feel free to read the whole post if you like, but this is my 'greater tradition'.

The point is that saying "Let's get rid of hakama because they look like skirts" is not a trivial thing to say if you care about kendo tradition. It might be true, but it is not trivially discarded. In precisely the same way, saying "Let's not hit people in the back of the head because it is mean and counterproductive" is also not a trivial thing to say if you care about kendo tradition, even though it is true. Unless, of course, you are a high ranking sensei and in a position to know such things like if hakama is a more important, less important, or equally important tradition to anything else.

I'm not suggesting arbitrarily discarding anything. However, if there is a good reason for changing something (let's say, just for an example, outdated teaching methods that cause kendo to be out of step with the current educational climate) then those changes should be made. Maybe high ranking sensei do know more about the relative importance of traditions, but I'm not so sure. As I see it, a strong tradition should be one that not only comes from the past, but continues to extend into the future. I've met an awful lot of older teachers that I would never send any child of mine to, nor recommend to anyone else with kids. Those people give kendo a bad name, even if their methods do produce strong fencers. I'd much rather send any kids I knew to the generation of 40-something teachers such as Hide. (not sure about the age) or my coach at Keio, Yoshida-sensei, who are both expert kendoists and learned in modern instructional methods. Let us not forget that 8th dan is a mark of kendo skill, and does not necessarily imply competence as an instructor, nor the ability to discern what is the best for the future of kendo. Something that I realized while staying in Japan is that just because somebody is an 8th dan and very strong, as long as you don't ask for their instruction or try to become their student, you don't have a duty to like or even respect them.
If you want to keep kendo exactly the same as it is now, fine. I'll even admit that there's a part of me that agrees with you, as that was the way I was trained (hence my final comment at the end of my last post). But if we choose this road, kendo will die, I have no doubt of that. I just don't feel it's fair to selfishly keep kendo in a state that we're accustomed to if it means that future generations are denied access to it because it's died out. You may think that I'm being melodramatic, but if you try talking to instructors at schools, who are on the front line of kendo's war for continued existence, or even ask people of my age, who will be the parents of the next generation of kendoists, what they think about kendo, you'd most likely start to feel the same concerns.

Yiu Fai

29th June 2005, 11:44 AM

I agree with Kingofmyrrh.

We should respect tradition, but should not be entirely bound by it.

Matlock

29th June 2005, 12:11 PM

Hello All, this thread had been a great read. I can see good minds with great thought and all writing great arguments. My hat off to the lot of you! But, I can also see a series of misconceptions that are running amuck. I can identify with almost every post and that person's experience and I do not think anyone is wrong. I think there are misconceptions in regard to the meaning of the word "tradition" and the Japanese culture. I grew up in the States and spent the greater part of the past 10 years in Japan. I have seen the rough nature of some dojos and the abusive things some have done. Most of the rough dojos that I have been to have been out of the major cities and more of an "inaka" dojo.

There for a while I also thought that was included in kendo but when I asked a well respected sensei about what I have seen he made a reply, that "there is a difference between being strict and being abusive". Proper kendo in Japan these days does not include a whack to the head. BUT, that is not saying that it does not exist somewhere in Japan. However, in the past when Japan was a militaristic country, it was another world. But we cannot compare that with modern day. As The great I AM-san said with the dojo he visited in London, some kendo dojos in other countries try to recreate what they think is a "traditional" dojo but in-fact could not be farther from the truth. Because as he stated his experience with sensei from Japan was that they still "thrashed him to a gibbering wreck incapable of movement" but without using excessive force.

Just like the words of Forrest Gump, "Tradition is as Tradition does". Kendo in each country around the world has developed in its own unique way. My experience in the US of a kendo dojo is as Nodachi-san and Joe-san describe; clean and friendly. THEN, you have the extreme that I describe in a thread a while back where I was told that the main teacher was the "Shogun" of the dojo and the shiai is like a "Western gunfight, anything goes". That dojo was just trying to recreate what they dreamed up after watching a few too many old Samurai movies. Well, Japan is no different! I completely agree with Kingofmyrrh-san's words of wisdom of "Let us not forget that 8th dan is a mark of kendo skill, and does not necessarily imply competence as an instructor, nor the ability to discern what is the best for the future of kendo." This is a lesson I learned from early on as well. The teachers or sempai that I have received abuse from were simply angry people trying to hurt others...nothing more. Just because they hold high rank or are Japanese does not mean that their peers do not shake their heads and wonder "what is up with that guy?"

Although kendo is relatively the same all over the world, slightly different "side-streets" have been created by different groups with different goals in their practice. If you want a 100% throwdown in a shiai match, good on ya, but you will not find me waiting in that line. Everyone should find a dojo to fit their desires. There are many varaities and ideas of thought, so you should decide carefully. If you find yourself in a rough kendo dojo in the back streets of some city, then start looking around for another. You cannot change that dojo and it is a waste of time trying to teach them your ideas of what "tradition" is, so just move on.

Cheers

Andou

29th June 2005, 01:11 PM

Matlock pretty much hit the nail right on the head with me. But here's a question (not necessarily from experience...but one of hypothetical roots). Do you find it just as important to find a dojo with a good atmosphere as important as one with a good teacher? Meaning if you absolutely detested the dojo, would you still go for the sake of learning kendo? (And this with no variables like go to another dojo).

Yiu Fai

29th June 2005, 02:12 PM

If I absolutely detested the dojo (as in the method of teaching that they chose to pursue I didnt like), I wouldnt go. Simple as that.

In Chinese, we have a saying: "A good teacher produces good student"

Andou

29th June 2005, 04:05 PM

The great I AM

29th June 2005, 06:10 PM

Yeah, I agree with that 100%. It does one so much better to hear someone of higher rank compliment you when you do something right rather than yell at you for doing something wrong. The latter however can be pretty motivating in a good dosage. :wink:

I think the best teachers have the ability to both at the appropriate moment to get the best response for the student. After all, they do still need to know and be told occaisionally when it all goes wrong, but I am still against excessive amounts of abuse being heaped on students, purely for the reason mentioned above, they won't come back! And thats from experience.

Another thing I also found is that if the dojo has a good atmosphere, it is usually rooted in a good teacher, someone who understands about those sorts of things, and thereby draws out of their students the enthusiasm to do better. If you like the place where you go to learn, then you want to learn. If you feel a kind of oppressive atmosphere there, then you will be scared of the next lesson before you leave your own front door. A big point in this (to me at least) is getting your hands dirty and mucking in with them, through every kirikaeshi and kakarigeiko, and not just sticking your men on for a quick jigeiko at the end, but thats another thread for a different day.

hyuna

29th June 2005, 11:38 PM

To me that sounds very much like you are saying that traditional methods are, or at the very least are a part of, kendo tradition.
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. But there is no contradiction.

I said I do not know what the tradition is, but whatever the tradition of kendo is, it is kendo tradition. The traditional methods of kendo are obviously part of kendo tradition. Is that not obvious from the very statement?

If the "traditional methods of kendo" are not part of "kendo tradition," what precisely makes them "traditional?"

Had you taken the time to read my first post, you might have come upon this sentence:
Thank you, I did read all of your posts very carefully.

By "whatever that means" I was specifically refering to your use of the word "greater" -- that is, I do not know if you mean "greater" to be "better," or "more inclusive," or "more fundamental," or any of several other senses of "greater." "Greater" has many implications of value and it is not at all clear to me what you are trying to say with that word. "Greater" does not necessarily entail "true" or "more fundamental" or any such thing.

I'm not suggesting arbitrarily discarding anything. However, if there is a good reason for changing something (let's say, just for an example, outdated teaching methods that cause kendo to be out of step with the current educational climate) then those changes should be made.
I don't disagree in the slightest. However, to does so compromises the tradition, like it or not.

Let us not forget that 8th dan is a mark of kendo skill, and does not necessarily imply competence as an instructor, nor the ability to discern what is the best for the future of kendo.
Neither ability to instruct nor the ability to see what is best for the future are aspects of tradition. When skill is measured in terms of "proper behavior" (such as proper reigi), then skill IS an aspect of tradition.

If you want to keep kendo exactly the same as it is now, fine. I'll even admit that there's a part of me that agrees with you, as that was the way I was trained (hence my final comment at the end of my last post). But if we choose this road, kendo will die, I have no doubt of that. I just don't feel it's fair to selfishly keep kendo in a state that we're accustomed to if it means that future generations are denied access to it because it's died out. You may think that I'm being melodramatic, but if you try talking to instructors at schools, who are on the front line of kendo's war for continued existence, or even ask people of my age, who will be the parents of the next generation of kendoists, what they think about kendo, you'd most likely start to feel the same concerns.
I don't think you are being melodramatic in the least. And, "had you taken the time to read my other posts" you would find that I myself do not teach in a particularly traditional way. However, you are reading an agenda into what I am saying that simply does not exist.

I am not arguing that everything should stay the same. I don't even believe that it should.

I am saying that tradition is tradition. It is a lie to claim to follow it while ignoring parts no matter how good the reason is. Justification is not the same as followng tradition.

Using leeches in medicine might be "traditional," but does that make it a good idea? Not necessarily, no. But we do not try to maintain the label of "tradition" for medicine. Instead, many westerners think of "modern medicine" as superior to "traditional medicine" and we happily discard the limitations of tradition. And, there is nothing wrong with that, per se.

That has nothing to do with what I am saying in the least. I am not making any value judgement when it comes to maintaining or discarding tradition in kendo. All I am saying is that to do something traditional means following its traditions.

Doing something the "traditional way" specifically means not doing things in the modern way. That means some aspects are not ideal. But if you value tradition for the sake of tradition, then it doesn't matter that they are not ideal, and maybe even counterproductive. If you value tradition over efficacy, then you happily do things in the suboptimal way simply because it is traditional to do so. If I choose to do a medieval reenactment, for example, I cook over a fire. Not because I enjoy cooking over fires or because it is somehow better, but because the point in doing the recreation is to do things in archaic fasion. If one is not going to do that, maybe one should just go camping instead. Or stay in a hotel.

And, again, I am not making any value judgements here. I don't care if you think it is good or bad to follow tradition, or to what extent it should be followed. I am objecting to one simple thing: the idea that someone can honestly claim to do a "traditional martial art" while arbitrarily disregarding its traditions. If kendo is a "traditional martial art" just because we use a shinai and wear bogu, than any karate McDojo is equally a traditional karate dojo just because they throw punches and wear a gi. There is no doubt that modern additions (like belts) are helpful to attendence at those dojo, so they are "improvements," but is it "traditional?"

Incidentally, I think it is a bit presumptious of you to make assumptions as to who I have or have not spoken to simply because we disagree.

Kingofmyrrh

30th June 2005, 01:08 AM

I think we'll just have to agree to, if not disagree, at least have our slightly divergent opinions. I will say that it's always a pleasure to read your well-considered posts.

Incidentally, I think it is a bit presumptious of you to make assumptions as to who I have or have not spoken to simply because we disagree.
You're absolutely correct. Please accept my apologies.

JByrd

30th June 2005, 02:01 AM

Neither ability to instruct nor the ability to see what is best for the future are aspects of tradition. When skill is measured in terms of "proper behavior" (such as proper reigi), then skill IS an aspect of tradition.

Is it possible for a tradition to incorporate the concept of evolution?

Neil Gendzwill

30th June 2005, 02:09 AM

Kendo is hardly traditional. I mean, what we're doing now has only been in existence for 50 or 60 years (and evolving the whole time I might add), before WWII it was quite different and before the late 19th century it was different again. It may seem rigid compared to the fast development of western sports but compared to koryu, kendo has changed quite a bit.

hyuna

30th June 2005, 02:55 AM

I think we'll just have to agree to, if not disagree, at least have our slightly divergent opinions.
Happily!

And thank you also for your own good thoughts and reasoning.

Is it possible for a tradition to incorporate the concept of evolution?
I think our modern concept of "science" in terms of the scientific method is a kind of tradition of evolution and change. But it is important to consider what is changing and what is staying the same. Science doesn't claim to know things with certainty, so the findings of science are constantly evolving and changing. But the scientific method itself does not change. The techniques and methods used by scientists do, but the ideology (that is, empiricism, repeatability, fallibilism, etc) behind those methods does not. Science as a corpus of knowledge evolves and changes. Science as a way of thinking is a tradition and does not.

Is it possible for a tradition to incorporate the concept of change in itself? That is, could the nature of a tradition be that it, itself, is fluid and evolves? My answer to that is even more philosophical (read: verbose and painful) than usual because it begs the question of what makes a tradition a singular thing. Or what makes anything a singular thing. But that is getting way off topic. I am happy to go into it into detail but I guess I can try to sum it up quickly. Say you have a tradition that you eat something different every year at Thanksgiving. So each year the superficial behavior of what you are eating changes. But the actual core traditional value of eating something different is not tied to the specifics of what you eat, and that tradition still stays the same. The same thing applies if the tradition is to "do what the soke says."

If the core values of the tradition change every year, how can you tell if you are actually still following the same tradition and not just doing something that someone has decided to call "traditional" (like white wedding dresses and diamond engagement rings)?

I think tradition is defined by continuity. So a tradition with no continuity of something is a contradiction in terms. Therefore, I would argue that a tradition cannot defined by change in its fundamental principles (eat something different every year), even though there is no conflict at all with changes in its outward expression (what is actually eaten).

Fonsz

30th June 2005, 03:06 AM

Although kendo is relatively the same all over the world, slightly different "side-streets" have been created by different groups with different goals in their practice. If you want a 100% throwdown in a shiai match, good on ya, but you will not find me waiting in that line. Everyone should find a dojo to fit their desires. There are many varaities and ideas of thought, so you should decide carefully. If you find yourself in a rough kendo dojo in the back streets of some city, then start looking around for another. You cannot change that dojo and it is a waste of time trying to teach them your ideas of what "tradition" is, so just move on.

Cheers
I have once encountered a Dojo with two rokudan in charge of training. The first thing that struck me was that there was no laughter in the dressing room before we started. Everyone was rather sour so to speak, and it resembled factory workers changing into their coveralls for a boring job.

The practice itself was pretty standard, that was ok. Then it was time for Ji Geiko. When the Rokudan were getting in trouble they reverted to pushing and shoving. It actually looked as if they were getting angry when you hit them. I was always used to Sensei who subtly opened up if you did the right thing at the right time, but here you could do nothing right, everything was a miss according to them. Even if I gave a straight do and they were slamming real hard on my shoulder.

For dessert there was Ai Kakari Geiko. I could land some clean hits on them and as a reward they started to hit me harder and harder, so when they missed they hit me on the excact same spot that was already sore. Afterwards my left shoulder blade on the back was black and blue. The shinai apparently curved round my shoulder and hit me on the back.

When I discussed this later with another Sensei, whom I deeply respect and admire, he said he was amazed that people that are practicing Kendo for such a long time could still have no Kokoro. He knew about them but he was still amazed that they haven't changed. They are right because they are Rokudan and what ever they do they are always right.
Needless to say that you won't see me around there anymore if I can help it.
By the way after training there was also no laughter just business talk about who was to pay his contribution and how much.
And this wasn't excactly in the Inaka but in a rather large town.

Andou

30th June 2005, 04:27 AM

I have once encountered a Dojo with two rokudan in charge of training. The first thing that struck me was that there was no laughter in the dressing room before we started. Everyone was rather sour so to speak, and it resembled factory workers changing into their coveralls for a boring job.

The practice itself was pretty standard, that was ok. Then it was time for Ji Geiko. When the Rokudan were getting in trouble they reverted to pushing and shoving. It actually looked as if they were getting angry when you hit them. I was always used to Sensei who subtly opened up if you did the right thing at the right time, but here you could do nothing right, everything was a miss according to them. Even if I gave a straight do and they were slamming real hard on my shoulder.

For dessert there was Ai Kakari Geiko. I could land some clean hits on them and as a reward they started to hit me harder and harder, so when they missed they hit me on the excact same spot that was already sore. Afterwards my left shoulder blade on the back was black and blue. The shinai apparently curved round my shoulder and hit me on the back.

When I discussed this later with another Sensei, whom I deeply respect and admire, he said he was amazed that people that are practicing Kendo for such a long time could still have no Kokoro. He knew about them but he was still amazed that they haven't changed. They are right because they are Rokudan and what ever they do they are always right.
Needless to say that you won't see me around there anymore if I can help it.
By the way after training there was also no laughter just business talk about who was to pay his contribution and how much.
And this wasn't excactly in the Inaka but in a rather large town.

That's pretty amazing to me. People like those sensei should not be teaching at all. It seems as though everyone at that dojo knew what was to come so they were, as you say, resembling factory workers getting ready for another day of the grind. Man...it is ubelieveable to me how some people can attain a rank like Rokudan and still succumb to petty frustration--especially when they're trying to teach.

Alex_McGrady

30th June 2005, 02:12 PM

That's pretty amazing to me. People like those sensei should not be teaching at all. It seems as though everyone at that dojo knew what was to come so they were, as you say, resembling factory workers getting ready for another day of the grind. Man...it is ubelieveable to me how some people can attain a rank like Rokudan and still succumb to petty frustration--especially when they're trying to teach.

Doesn't surprise me, 6-kyu or 6-dan, we are all still just human..... I couldn't count how many times I have encountered higher ranks at dojos and wondered how they got to where they are. Perhaps they are not always so "out of the norm", maybe just having a bad week, month or year :) Rank is not necessarily the best judge of character or even overall ability.

Alex

joekc6nlx

30th June 2005, 02:24 PM

My sensei has been practicing kendo for over 50 years. He's now nanadan, and will be making his second attempt at hachidan this November.

My assistant sensei is rokudan, and he skyrocketed up through the ranks because he has great natural talent.

Both of these gentlemen cultivate a spirit of learning within the dojo. If a student needs guidance, they are quick to provide the necessary guidance. They don't use physical means, they talk to the student, and point out where the deficiency is and what needs to be done to correct it.

I disagree that "because I was taught that way, everyone else should be taught that way", or "that's the way it's been for hundreds of years". Just because it's been taught that way for hundreds of years doesn't make it right, or effective, or true. In universities of the European Middle Ages, men were beaten if they couldn't learn the lessons taught. Did it make them better students? People believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, and it was taught that way, until certain "heretics" proved that it was false. Lots of backtracking on that lesson......

Whether the student is "western" or "eastern" makes no difference. As an experienced teacher, I know that if you make a lesson unpleasant, students are not going to want to learn it, and they will not want to come to your class any more.

I'm not saying that teaching kendo classes should be like a high school Physical Education class, but they should also not be taught in an atmosphere of physical punishment for a mistake. The "push" that Neil gives if he believes a student is being lazy is not physical punishment. Whacking a student on the back of the head or on the unprotected forearm is and I would be looking for another sensei if one did that to me. I want to learn kendo, I don't need to be battered and bruised in order to learn it.

ShinKenshi

1st July 2005, 10:35 PM

Andou

2nd July 2005, 01:53 AM

I'm part of a college group that just started a couple years ago and the atmosphere during our practices is that you're there to learn and it's ok to make mistakes as long as you try to correct them. We give beginners a bit more room for error because they're still learning the basics and the senior members try to give them tips when they can. My sensei has told me that he feels it's a little too relaxed during practice because there are some people who still don't carry their shinai or bokuto correctly and show blatant disrespect for their weapons by either carrying it blade side down, letting the tip touch the ground and almost leaning on it, holding it sideways in front of them or just waving it around like a stick. We try tell and show them how to correct that but more often than not they forget and revert back to doing that every now and then.

Overall it's a very welcoming atmosphere but everyone there knows that they are there to learn and there isn't time to fool around. Everyone pretty much knows that it's their loss if they don't pay attention and whole-heartedly try to improve themselves.

Maybe you should tell all the new students to treat their shinai/bokuto as though it were a real sword. If they joined Kendo for the right reasons, they should realize what they're doing is wrong. But if they're really really new, you can't really expect them to do stuff like that. At my dojo there is a kids class before the kendo class and when I put my shinai down to help move the mats, often I see kids stepping over the shinai to get their gear. Now...I'd yell at them if they knew what kind of respect kendoka give their shinai/bokken. New students of kendo should know for a fact that the shinai ain't just a stick.

samurai

2nd July 2005, 03:47 AM

The ambience in the Dojo is indeed very important. The ambience influences your capacity of learning and aquiring the necesary information. If the it has a wrong ambience it will only stop your developement.

The ambience in the Dojo is firstly created by the Sensei. he is the one who gis the tone. The apprentices just follow him. Of course there are certain ones who are different and who want to act differently from what the Sensei says so but, if the Sensei is a good one, they have only two choices: to conform themselves or to find another Dojo that suits their behaviour.

ShinKenshi

5th July 2005, 09:52 PM

Maybe you should tell all the new students to treat their shinai/bokuto as though it were a real sword. If they joined Kendo for the right reasons, they should realize what they're doing is wrong. But if they're really really new, you can't really expect them to do stuff like that. At my dojo there is a kids class before the kendo class and when I put my shinai down to help move the mats, often I see kids stepping over the shinai to get their gear. Now...I'd yell at them if they knew what kind of respect kendoka give their shinai/bokken. New students of kendo should know for a fact that the shinai ain't just a stick.

Yeah, we tell them that but they seem to keep forgetting. They know enough not to handle someone else's shinai/bokuto without permission and to not ever step over them when they're on the floor but they keep forgetting that they need to hold it blade side up. Guess we just have to keep drilling it into their heads until they break that habit.

Hai_hai

16th July 2005, 01:15 PM

Ambience of my dojo?

Usually, we like to turn the lights down a bit. Put out some candles. Play some mellow jazz in the background. Start things off with a glass of wine. You know... set the mood. Take off your shoes, sit back, relax. Then, proceed with some chit-chat. Nothing too serious though. After unwinding a bit, we start with some appetizer... like fried calamari with a spicy marinara sauce. Oh yeah, that's how I like it. To keep that vibe going, we move onto a tasty entree like veal parmigiana. Mmmm... tasty.

Oh yeah, that's dojo ambience.

Hai_hai

16th July 2005, 01:23 PM

Oh, but there's more.

That entree hit the spot. Then, it's time to move to the sofa... you know where I'm going now. Start off with some cuddling... small talk... little kisses. It's all good. Then, we take it up a notch. Turn on some funked up cool jazz, do some dancing... ah you know... it's all about the international language of getting it on. It's a little strange with about 35 kendoka but we manage.

Trey

16th July 2005, 07:05 PM

durrell4

18th July 2005, 01:57 AM

I admit I was up late last night reading many of fine post on this thread. I generally do not post replies to threads of this vain as many of the people that post regularly are in my federation and know me personally, but I wanted to add my experience with regards to Dojo Atmosphere. I have been fortunate enough to travel to many dojo's around the US and Japan.

Many of the Japanese Dojo's I've practiced with were University clubs and therefore I witnessed some hazing of the younger students. This generally was limited to long kakarigeiko with the occasional push on the floor. The Sensei's were not the ones pushing the ichinensei around it was the yon-nensei's their sempi's. As a guest I was treated with respect and in general everyone took it easy on me. I came to find out over several night of drinking that this sort of hazing is not limited to Kendo (at least at the university level) but was common in everything from Baseball to Tennis. So at least in the case of University some hazing is accepted in Japan.

I started Kendo in Hawaii as a child with a "traditional" dojo at the local Buddhist temple. My sensei would hit the kids in the calf with the shinai as we went through to encourage us to move faster. This was never done with the intent to hurt us rather it was intended to remind us most through faster. This is a long way from hitting someone in the back of the head but could be considered a form of bullying. I never minded it, in fact I helped me improve.

Most of the Dojos I have had the opportunity to train with do not engage in this sort of hazing or bullying as a common practice. My Sensei sometimes pushes us in practice, but does so without "dirty" kendo. So the practice of bullying is subjective and seems to be dependent on the receiver. Some might argue that any sort of pushing or hard training is unnecessary in Kendo. I feel in moderation it can be a valuable training aid if it is done with respect and not out of maliciousness.

The last comment I would like to add in regards to tradition with respect to kendo in general pertains to the purpose of studying kendo. I believe many people are drawing to Kendo because of its traditional buko origins. I have heard it said that we practice kendo to become a better person and thus make the world better in return. The tradition that imparts this mentality is Rei. A dojo that ignores the this aspect of Kendo will product a kendoist with generally bad attitudes. In the US this will lead to the commercialization of Kendo to the extend kendo can become a commercial sport. Without a link to rei I see Red White and Blue Do's and spandex around the corner. This might be OK for some, but that is not the Kendo I would like to foster in the community. To answer the question "What is Traditional Kendo" I would say it kendo based on a mutual respect between teacher and learner based on Rei.

Sorry if this is slightly off subject.

Fonsz

1st August 2005, 05:23 AM

= durrell4 Many of the Japanese Dojo's I've practiced with were University clubs and therefore I witnessed some hazing of the younger students. This generally was limited to long kakarigeiko with the occasional push on the floor. The Sensei's were not the ones pushing the ichinensei around it was the yon-nensei's their sempi's. As a guest I was treated with respect and in general everyone took it easy on me. I came to find out over several night of drinking that this sort of hazing is not limited to Kendo (at least at the university level) but was common in everything from Baseball to Tennis. So at least in the case of University some hazing is accepted in Japan.

You have a point there of something that always struck me as being odd. When a visiting Japanese Sensei who is very helpful and forgiven in Ji Geiko in regard to the "Westerners" they are very strict and demanding when they meet their expatriate countryfolk. It doesn't matter if the students are a boy or a girl or an advanced age and anything in between, they snarl and shout at them and are pulling of things that you never saw them do before. More tsuki, pushing when the attack is blocked by them or the sorry expatriate. Does this has to do with what you just mentioned? I mean is this the Standing Operational Procedure when you encounter the deserters of your country abroad, or do they expect that since you are Japanese you should be better than the inhabitants of the guest country? It always amazed me to see the Sensei who were so kind and helpful turn into Sensei from hell (so to speak) when they are up against their countrymen.

Yiu Fai

1st August 2005, 02:05 PM

I'm curious in regards to how people's dojo's are different to their approach towards teaching. The dojo i go to has a friendly and relaxed but serious approach, whereas next month i'll be joining the local uni club who from what i've heard have a more hardline, serious and not-so-friendly approach to training.

For specific example, at my current dojo, if you get something wrong say during waza practise, you'll at the most be asked to do it again with instructions on how to do it better, as opposed to what i've heard (not that i firmly believe everything i hear about before i see it) at the uni, you'll be corrected with force by seniors with a not so light blow to forearms or something similar. Whether or not that is actually true i'm not sure. I personally prefer a more serious approach to learning, but at the same time it cant be serious ALL the time now can it? (Then again i'm not trying out for national team or anything like that i suppose...)

After having joined the uni club i was referring to in my post, i can safely say that my "concern" was unwarranted! A great bunch of kendoka who i shall certaintly look forward to train with in the future!

Ayame

1st August 2005, 07:41 PM

I am not sure what's the exact definition of these. Do you think you are treadted badly if your sensei did tsuki on you 10 times because your kamae is "off"? Do you think it is not friendly when your sensei ask you to do 50 hayasuburi on one day and 100 on the other?

:rolleyes:

Would it be me he was tsuki'ing, On the third tsuki I would have done a debana tsuki that would send him to the wall behind him, bow off and never return to that dojo again.

Maxim

2nd August 2005, 12:15 AM

The last comment I would like to add in regards to tradition with respect to kendo in general pertains to the purpose of studying kendo. I believe many people are drawing to Kendo because of its traditional buko origins. I have heard it said that we practice kendo to become a better person and thus make the world better in return. The tradition that imparts this mentality is Rei. A dojo that ignores the this aspect of Kendo will product a kendoist with generally bad attitudes. In the US this will lead to the commercialization of Kendo to the extend kendo can become a commercial sport. Without a link to rei I see Red White and Blue Do's and spandex around the corner. This might be OK for some, but that is not the Kendo I would like to foster in the community. To answer the question "What is Traditional Kendo" I would say it kendo based on a mutual respect between teacher and learner based on Rei.

I agree with this entirely. When I consider the argument of traditional versus modern kendo I don't necessarily think of the methods of teaching it. Instead I believe traditional kendo is that which implies a deeper level of understanding of oneself and the greater impact that kendo itself has on everyone as well as the concepts of general respect and humility. To generalize, I suppose I think more of the conflict between kendo and kumdo. On the one hand kendo is as much about improving yourself and becoming a better person overall, and on the other hand kumdo is often more of a competitive sport. I don't believe anyone can even say that one is better than the other. In this case it simply comes down to a matter of what you look for in a martial art.

As others have pointed out before, "traditional" kendo is a very hard thing to concretely define. What is traditional for some is not traditional for others. I don't believe we can even point to one particular training method and say "aha! that is traditional kendo". Instead I believe the tradition comes from how you let kendo affect your life and change you as a person, and even in this case you have to ask if you're following the traditional mindset of the Japanese or the Koreans (yes I realize I am generalizing). I also believe the ambience of a dojo can reflect this differing of kendo mindsets. The dojos in which there is much more physical aggression and punishment I think tend to be those that emphasize the competitive nature of kendo, whereas those that are more relaxed and encouraging I believe are more conducive to the development of an individual person as well as the kendo community on the whole.

I hope some of this made sense. I feel like I might have contradicted myself a little in the way I wrote it, but hopefully I got my point across.