3 Dan and above please

[jmarsten]

How are the 3 kills and the 4 sicknesses related?

[The great I AM]

Whilst I know what you mean by the 3 kills, should I be embarressed that I either don't understand what you mean by 4 sickness's or potentially don't even know what they are? My kendo theory has never been so hot.


Is this some sort of test for us, or a genuine question? Considering what I understand to be your grade, I would know which I think it is...

[The great I AM]

Someone just sent me a PM about what the 4 sicknesses are. Just never heard it called that before...but at least I knew what they are! So anyway, gimme time to think about this one......but I would still like to know why we are being tested?

[The great I AM]

Hows this....I'll keep it short and sweet....

By effective use of one or more of the 3 kills you can create one or more of the 4 sicknesses in your opponent, which is to be used to take an effective strike from your opponent.

Hows that? Do I win a prize? Can I have the big teddy on the back row? Or the little goldfish in the plastic bag?

Still, again, why?

[emitbrownne]

I'm not 3rd Dan ... sorry.

But for the sake of the rest of us could we have a break down of the 3 kills and the 4 sicknesses.

Cheers

(I've heard of the sicknesses but not the kills.. )

[JSchmidt]

3 kills are:
Body, sword or spirit.
4 diseases:
Fear, doubt, suprise, perplexity.

Jakob

[Nanbanjin]

I was surprised by this perplexing question. I doubt my ability to answer accurately, so I fear I'll have to pass on this one.

[The great I AM]

I was surprised by this perplexing question. I doubt my ability to answer accurately, so I fear I'll have to pass on this one.

Does that mean I win? Or was I way off?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hmm, my theory is weak, too. But I'd say the 4 diseases are all diseases of the spirit - if you exploit them, you've killed the spirit, which will let you kill the body.

[Nanbanjin]

Does that mean I win? Or was I way off?
I'd give you ippon, but Marsden Sensei's the Shushin around here.

[hyuna]

i thought it was: spirit, sword, technique

as for how they are related, i see the two things as being fundamentally the same, where the kills are an outward expression of the weaknesses. through one of the kills, you create in your opponent one of the weaknesses, but you perform one of the kills by exploiting one of the weaknesses.

[JByrd]

By effective use of one or more of the 3 kills you can create one or more of the 4 sicknesses in your opponent, which is to be used to take an effective strike from your opponent.


Interesting. I was thinking the order is the other way around. Here's how I picture it in my not completely solidified mind:

First we start with "en" or engaging the opponent. That means focusing all our attention on him, and becoming sensitive to his disposition. Next comes seme, the pressure that comes from our intention to attack. Our pressure infects our opponent with one of the 4 sicknesses, and then we get a chance to kill him (by attacking his sword, his waza, or his lack of spirit).

I have a feeling that the process of questioning ourselves is more important than getting the "right" answer. Great question, thanks Marsten Sensei.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Actually if you look at the shinsa study guide at the AUSKF site, Gibbo is right and I am wrong.

[Kingofmyrrh]

i thought it was: spirit, sword, technique.
I thought so too.

[James]

No , no , it's Plague, Pestilence, Death and the other one

[Kirin]

3 kills :
Sake, Scotch and Tequila

4 diseases / sicknesses :
Nausea, Headache, Redeye and Dry mounth

[jmarsten]

3 kills :
Sake, Scotch and Tequila

4 diseases / sicknesses :
Nausea, Headache, Redeye and Dry mounth
Once again Hiro knows the essence of hard training. However JBryd is also correct. The question doesn't necessarily require an answer but should provoke some real kendo thinking. This is a written test question for 6 Dan on the AUSKF exam. If you really explore this question there are many answers but it really hits at some deep concepts.

[The great I AM]

Actually if you look at the shinsa study guide at the AUSKF site, Gibbo is right and I am wrong.

Gor blimey that makes a change!

I actually thought about this alot on my way home, and right up until marsten sensei said I was wrong, was content with what I thought it was! Bum. No rokudan for me yet, but interesting to think about it. But to me it still feels like the kilss are used to create the sicknesses, and that was honestly how I would have applied it. There we go! Interesting...

[Lucien]

Thanks to Marsten-sensei for this question. I have mulling over it off and on since it was posted, and still no nearer to answering it.

If anything, my answer would just show the limit of my ignorance. If I come up with something I will post.

[The great I AM]

Once again Hiro knows the essence of hard training. However JBryd is also correct. The question doesn't necessarily require an answer but should provoke some real kendo thinking. This is a written test question for 6 Dan on the AUSKF exam. If you really explore this question there are many answers but it really hits at some deep concepts.

Marsten sensei, Could you perhaps furnish us with what the text book answer is, or at least what the auskf is looking within the answer, it would be interesting to know. Further to that, though this is a bit cheeky, how many people at rokudan could be assumed to "not understand" according to the answer that they gave to the question. I'm quite interested in this now, and more so the more I think about it! Cheers for the brainbender!

[JByrd]

Once again Hiro knows the essence of hard training. However JBryd is also correct.

Second place is certainly much better than I expected to do. Even more surprising is that Hiro managed to win without mentioning Brandy in his list. :)

[jmarsten]

Marsten sensei, Could you perhaps furnish us with what the text book answer is, or at least what the auskf is looking within the answer, it would be interesting to know. Further to that, though this is a bit cheeky, how many people at rokudan could be assumed to "not understand" according to the answer that they gave to the question. I'm quite interested in this now, and more so the more I think about it! Cheers for the brainbender!
I forgot this question is actually for the 7 dan written exam. You have to write a thesis on the subject. The 6th dan as you to explain, describe, etc one or the other.
I will do this in a couple of settings because I'm really busy with my team getting ready for next weeks tournament.
Firstly Kill the Sword. Starting with the simple premise that if you can't attack the person, attack the sword. So if the partners kamae is very strong and you can't penetrate to strike a target then you must "surprise the opponent" with a strong strike to their sword. (harai waza, uchiotoshi, makiotoshi) If you consider the opponents state of mind they are strong because their ki is going at you and their mind is in a response mode. if you try to move they move their sword to forstall your action and stop you. Using your footwork try to move in a slightly different timing and wedge (norimen) in against their sword creating an opening. Since the shinai is wedge shaped the more you penetrate the further the opponents tip is moved off of center. Now they are surprised because you have penetrated and you can now attack the person. This does not guarantee a successfull attack but at least creates an opportunity.

[Valhalla_Knight]

First of all to James:
Plague, pestilance , death and WAR. Are the knights of Apocalypse aren´t they?

Now seriously:
3 Kills:
1 Shinai o koroçu
To "kill" the oponent´s shinai
By: Harae waza, Makikomi waza, Harate waza, etc

2 Ki o Koroçu
To kill the oponent´s will, spirit or whatever you call it
Do it Seme, kiai, etc

2 kamae o koroçu
Kill the kamae making the oponent create a suki (attack oportunity)

4 diseases (Shi kai)
1 Kyo (Scare) To get scared(obvious) Probably most related to Ki o koroçu

2 Ku (fear) I think is not relationed to any of the 3 kills. The person is in fear BEFORE starting the keiko/ shiai

3 Gui (Doubt) Doubt to attack or not attack (that is thje question?)
Not sure to which 3 kills is most related

4 Waku (distraction) Self-explanatory
Also not sure which kill is most related

Well.. that´s what I know....what do you think?

[amatsuda]

Marsten sensei, Could you perhaps furnish us with what the text book answer is, or at least what the auskf is looking within the answer, it would be interesting to know. Further to that, though this is a bit cheeky, how many people at rokudan could be assumed to "not understand" according to the answer that they gave to the question. I'm quite interested in this now, and more so the more I think about it! Cheers for the brainbender!
I believe that there is no textbook answer...As Marsten Sensei points out, it is part of the written examination for those testing for 6 Dan and up in the United States. Although conceptually the answers may be similar, but from a philosophical perspective, there really is no right or wrong answer to this question.

What I believe the testing panel is searching for is analytical thought of how an individual assimilates Kendo principals and concepts into their own Kendo philosophy and practice.

Below is an excerpt of the relation of San-Satsu-Ho (3 methods of killing) and the four sicknesses from my thesis that I prepared for the written examination when I tested for 6 Dan.

Of course, this is My opinion on the subject and others reading it may have a different opinion. Also, my own opinion on this subject may change as I gain more insight and experience in Kendo, or practice of Iaido, or quite possibly some other martial art/sport/activity outside of JSA.

amatsuda

[Above section snipped]
If the killing of the opponent's ki, sword and waza is performed correctly and done with a strong spirit, San-Satsu-Ho will cause the four sicknesses of Kendo to manifest itself in the opponent.

If the three methods are used during the match, this will create fear, doubt, surprise, and confusion (or frustration) in one's opponent.

For example, effectively killing the opponent's waza, ki, or ken may create a situation in which they will fear losing and not use a particular waza for the remainder of a match. They may also become confused in what they need to do to achieve victory or become frustrated when things they had planned to do during the match become nullified. It may also cause them to doubt themselves and their ability to win.

I also believe that each of the four sicknesses are not mutually exclusive, but can arise at any time or in any number of combinations throughout a match.

For instance, by killing the opponent's ki and ken and taking the initiative by striking an opponent first may cause the sicknesses of surprise and confusion to arise at the same time. This will create an unforced error or a momentary lapse in concentration to allow one to achieve victory.

Using the three methods of killing and also taking advantage of the four sicknesses is critical in achieving victory in Kendo matches. As one masters San-Satsu-Ho and control of the four sicknesses within themselves, they will be able to perform them seamlessly and move from one method to another against their opponent.

[mad_god]

i thought it was: spirit, sword, technique

In the end, body and sword is closely related.


as for how they are related, i see the two things as being fundamentally the same, where the kills are an outward expression of the weaknesses. through one of the kills, you create in your opponent one of the weaknesses, but you perform one of the kills by exploiting one of the weaknesses.

Not necessary.
Killing means you can beat the opponent, even the opponent still is not perplexed, feared...etc. Ex. Kill the opponent kensen and hit the opponent.
He may still "healthy" but you are able to hit him.
Disease means you are digging your own tomb. Not necessary through opponent's action.

MG

[hyuna]

Killing means you can beat the opponent, even the opponent still is not perplexed, feared...etc. Ex. Kill the opponent kensen and hit the opponent.
He may still "healthy" but you are able to hit him.
Disease means you are digging your own tomb. Not necessary through opponent's action.

Ah, that is a very good point. Thank you very much for your correction.

[Kenshi]

when i attended this years hatsugeiko session for my local area [about 300 hundred or so attendees] at the end we got a 30min lecture about a few things from a local 8 dan. the most important of these involved the San-Sappo/San-Satsu-Ho: ki-o-korosu, ken-o-korosu, and waza-o-korosu.
In particular he stipulated when to use them against what opponents during your normal keiko session [not a shiai, not a grading].

This is just my translation/interpretation of what he said, and I am putting it here only because it is a different angle than the other posts, yet still related.

---------
Jigeiko is split into 3 basic types - keiko with people of lower level than you, the same level, and sensei [those of more experience and ability than you]. Fencing someone at different levels respectively means:

* Lower Level: Its important to be a good aitei for the other person. You must match their feeling and their kendo. This is a time to practise your waza. [waza o korosu, maybe ken as well].

* Same Level: Try many different things and experiment. Try defeating your opponent using waza, ki, and overcoming their shinai. [ki/ken/waza o korosu]

* Higher Level: Just attack! This isnt the time to try waza. Just attack and attack. Try to force your will via KI only. [ki o korosu]
---------

personally, i found the lecture quite enlightening as i had never thought about san-sappo in these terms before. Some of the old boys here dont seem to care what you are flinging at them as long as you dont stop and dont block... just attack. Classic ki-o-korosu training action!!

of-course, this is just 1 pesons feeling on the matter and different sensei will have different ideas about when and where to apply these methods. And depending on what stage you are in training it might be better to concentrate on one than another. AAAAAAAND, some people just stick to one method constantly [like me with the ken-o-korosu].

[bluhawq]

Sounds like I've got all four diseases. Will be digging my grave soon. =P

On another note. This is a very enlightening thread!!Might just use some concepts during training~thank you!!

[Charlie]

Great thread. The truth is, I have thought about the four sicknesses or "poisons" quite a bit but hardly meditated on the three kills at all.

One thing I think about the four poisons is that, for me, they are largely self-inflicted. And they even happen in chronological order. I feel fear before the match (actually, I hardly ever feel this anymor), then the doubt arises when I've mastered the fear. Hopefully I've mastered the doubt after entering into the shiai-jo (or jigeiko-jo, or what have you) but surprise is still a very present possibility, one that will arise if my opponent moves faster than me or attacks me in a way I find incomfortable. At that point, confusion can reign, and my kamae will fall apart. You see? I tend to think they happen in that linear fashion.

I also feel, however, that you can descend along the path as the match progresses. This was made very clear to me once during an encho where, as it progressed and we were still scoreless, I allowed myself to think, "Why can't I put this guy away?" Doubt, and it opened a suki that my opponent took a moment later. So you see, in that case I had mastered fear and doubt, was not surprised or confused, but had moved back down to doubt. The four sicknesses in this way felt to me like a spectrum of sicknesses that I moved up and down.

And to me, it felt like my opponent's attempts at the 3 kills had nothing to do with it. Or perhaps he was able to kill my spirit by constantly killing my waza through ai-uchi. As I said, I have not meditated on the 3 kills very much.

Great thread.

[senjlee]

Once I read an related article.
It said that sometimes it's hard to do serious geiko with beginners, especially when they don't wait for the opportunity to mature. They just keep attacking as they are taught and don't care about being hit, so it's hard to apply pressure (mentally) on them.
So, how should I deal with that kind of opponent and make him/her hesitate?
"Kill the shinai"

[mad_god]

Once I read an related article.
It said that sometimes it's hard to do serious geiko with beginners, especially when they don't wait for the opportunity to mature. They just keep attacking as they are taught and don't care about being hit, so it's hard to apply pressure (mentally) on them.
So, how should I deal with that kind of opponent and make him/her hesitate?
"Kill the shinai"

Kill opponent's technique.

MG

[Kaoru]

Kill opponent's technique.

MG

So are you 3 dan? :D (Title of thread..)

Kaoru

[mad_god]

So are you 3 dan? :D (Title of thread..)

Kaoru

No, I am not 3 dan.

MG

[Kaoru]

No, I am not 3 dan.

MG

That solves one thing. :D

I meant are you 3rd dan or above that?(As the title says.) That's what I was intending by what I said in parenthesis. (Only 3rd and above should reply here to the question.)

Kaoru

[kendokamax]

That solves one thing. :D

I meant are you 3rd dan or above that?(As the title says.) That's what I was intending by what I said in parenthesis. (Only 3rd and above should reply here to the question.)

Kaoru

I think it was more a request for serious answers
I had no idea what he was talking about so I didn't not venture!

[mad_god]

That solves one thing. :D

I meant are you 3rd dan or above that?(As the title says.) That's what I was intending by what I said in parenthesis. (Only 3rd and above should reply here to the question.)

Kaoru

Ok, yes.
I am at the "above" region.

MG

[mad_god]

I think it was more a request for serious answers
I had no idea what he was talking about so I didn't not venture!

It's a long drama between me and Kaoru....
Better don't try to understand, neither try to be involved...

MG

[mad_god]

That solves one thing. :D

I meant are you 3rd dan or above that?(As the title says.) That's what I was intending by what I said in parenthesis. (Only 3rd and above should reply here to the question.)

Kaoru

This would be a nice reply....: are you 3 dan or above?
If not, why are you here????

MG

[Kaoru]

This would be a nice reply....: are you 3 dan or above?
If not, why are you here????

MG

You know my level. (And it's in my profile.) :) I sense you are a little miffed that I asked. Then if so, then say your rank. You can't refuse me, if you are going to ask ME this. ;) :D

Also, I was joking, in case you missed it, because before, you refused to say your rank. And so, I couldn't resist asking you, since this thread is intended for 3rd dan and above. That's why I'm here. Because I'm not 3rd dan, I'd never presume to reply to the discussion and try to take part.

And besides, you dangled the carrot by replying here, too. :D Of course I can't resist asking... And, it's not something to turn into a serious discussion over. That's not why I asked. Anyway, I see no reason to derail this thread further. You have the last post in regard to this. :)

Kaoru

[mad_god]

You know my level. (And it's in my profile.) :) I sense you are a little miffed that I asked. Then if so, then say your rank. You can't refuse me, if you are going to ask ME this. ;) :D

Also, I was joking, in case you missed it, because before, you refused to say your rank. And so, I couldn't resist asking you, since this thread is intended for 3rd dan and above. That's why I'm here. Because I'm not 3rd dan, I'd never presume to reply to the discussion and try to take part.

And besides, you dangled the carrot by replying here, too. :D Of course I can't resist asking... And, it's not something to turn into a serious discussion over. That's not why I asked. Anyway, I see no reason to derail this thread further. You have the last post in regard to this. :)

Kaoru

Sorry, I didn't read your profile yet. In fact I read nobody's profile. You know why. Because I prefer to discuss with people with the contens they can expose, not with what they say they are or have.
And don't worry, I am not serious with the discussion neither angry with what happened in the past. We all should look forward and bring our past experiences and feedback in ourselves to improve more internally.
That's my policy.
By the way, I like when you argue (theory, technique, etc) with me. Sometimes helps me to reconfirm my own concepts. Please continue doing it.
I don't like people that only agrees but don't have anything to add to the discussion.

MAD GOD