spirits, swords, culturally sensitive

[JohnHershman]

(Sorry if something similar has been posted)
I know that there is a lot of mysticism behind Swords esp behind the Katana. Now I am a Christian(kinda hand in hand with the kendo and Christ post), in fact I am a pastor. and I do have some trouble with certain aspects of Iaido and Kendo and almost any martial art for that matter. BUT I have come to some revelations in my life on these. First I should qualify that I do believe in Spirits(demons and angels, God, The Holy Spirit and so on) and I do believe demons can affect a person through objects, for instance swords that are made with the religious ceremonies. This can be taken are of through prayer.

now all that said here are some of my revelations.
In Iaido when one bows to the sword it has roots in ancestor worship of Japan, I throw that mentality out the door and bow before the God I have pledged my life to. Same in Kenpo. When asked to meditate, i do a biblical meditation... I dont clear my mind I reflect on God or his Word.
When asked to participate in Japanese cermonies of any kind I DO participate.... all for one reason. I am trying to be culturally relevent. When I went to My recently deceased grand master's widow's house we burned incense and stuff of that nature. But instead of giving the dead well wishes, we prayed for his wife and hoped for doors of ministry to open. If we had not done what we did the door would have been shut and we would have insulted a friends wife.

the point is you can throw the bath water out AND keep the baby in Martial Arts, Kendo and iaido.
thats my rant for now.. stay tuned

[nodachi]

It's good to hear that there are people out there who are able to do what you did. Going through someone else's ritual and ceremony, but believing/praying/thinking in your own faith and rituals. It doesn't seem hard to me to give the outward perception to others that you are being respectful of their traditions, but still being true to your own on the inside. I don't think actions like this offend people's faith because isn't the importance in how we practice our religion based in our hearts and our thoughts and not the outward perceptions and actions of little ceremonies, even though they may be different. Some people get so hung up on the differences in how we practice our faiths that they can't find a compromise between them when most faiths are very similar.

That's my random thoughts for now, although I am not so traditional so I am sure other people are bound to disagree with this approach.

[Berugijin]

now all that said here are some of my revelations.
In Iaido when one bows to the sword it has roots in ancestor worship of Japan, I throw that mentality out the door and bow before the God I have pledged my life to. Same in Kenpo. When asked to meditate, i do a biblical meditation... I dont clear my mind I reflect on God or his Word.


In my opinion you're not doing kenpo but something that looks like it. Throwing out tradition and assimilating it into your own stupid beliefs ruins the art. I don't like your mix-'n-match attitude.

It's like I would go around saying I'm a christian priest but I don't believe in Jesus. In fact he was just a Mexican crackpot.

[Yaiba]

Hmmm... this is a difficult one. :ermm:

As you well know, "Budo" (ie Japanese martial arts) was developed by the Japanese, whose psyche has been heavily influenced by Buddhism, Shintoism and, to some extent, Confuciusm for many centuries. My personal opinion is that you tend to get more out of Kendo, etc, if you're a follower of any of the above mentioned religions as it kind of reinforces the teachings of martial arts. For me, it's the combination of the philosophical concepts to the hard activities that makes me appreciate what is Kendo.

In Iaido when one bows to the sword it has roots in ancestor worship of Japan, I throw that mentality out the door and bow before the God I have pledged my life to. Same in Kenpo. When asked to meditate, i do a biblical meditation... I dont clear my mind I reflect on God or his Word.
Now, I've been brought up in a semi-Buddhist kind of family (like most Asian families, I guess) and it's only been just recently that I've started to look into Buddhism in more detail... so I'll try my best here.

Firstly, I think you may have a misunderstanding of the concept of "ancestor worship". It is just all about paying respect to your ancestors and being grateful for what they have done before you came into this world... I don't think this should be a difficult thing to do, even if you are a Christian. I mean, aren't you grateful to your parents, grandparents, and so on?

Secondly, meditation (from a Buddhist's point of view) is that it is an exercise to help you clear your mind so that you may hopefully reach Enlightenment. Now, you'll need to study Buddhism to understand what this is because it's not a simple thing to grasp but one of the things that Buddhists strive to achieve during meditation is to relinquish the sense of "I", "me", "self", etc. When I meditate at training, I employ a similar method and all I try to do is disregard everything that is outside of the dojo (including "me" and what happens around "me") because those things aren't necessary for keiko. Without trying to sound disrespectful, a "biblical meditation" is the complete opposite (ie thoughts going into mind) and I would imagine that this would just clutter your mind, making it somewhat disorderly.

When asked to participate in Japanese cermonies of any kind I DO participate.... all for one reason. I am trying to be culturally relevent. When I went to My recently deceased grand master's widow's house we burned incense and stuff of that nature. But instead of giving the dead well wishes, we prayed for his wife and hoped for doors of ministry to open. If we had not done what we did the door would have been shut and we would have insulted a friends wife.
Hmmm... well, I think your intentions are good so I don't have a problem with this. Although, some people may not be as open-minded as I may be.

Sorry if my post has been offensive to anyone (that wasn't my intention) but all I wanted to do was highlight some of my personal thoughts on this. Feel free to comment... I'd be interested to learn how other people feel about this.

Also, please correct any misunderstandings I may have about Buddhism... like I said, I'm still only a novice. :nervous:

[rainmaker]

So, are you going to shave your head like old samurai did ? Do you believe in Buddism and Shintoism ? I don't think you know diddley squat about old tradition. Can you dare to tell him what to believe or not ? Attitude like you cause fight and war. At least John is trying to harmonize his belief and what he is learning..



In my opinion you're not doing kenpo but something that looks like it. Throwing out tradition and assimilating it into your own stupid beliefs ruins the art. I don't like your mix-'n-match attitude.

It's like I would go around saying I'm a christian priest but I don't believe in Jesus. In fact he was just a Mexican crackpot.

[drizzt]

In my opinion you're not doing kenpo but something that looks like it. Throwing out tradition and assimilating it into your own stupid beliefs ruins the art. I don't like your mix-'n-match attitude.

It's like I would go around saying I'm a christian priest but I don't believe in Jesus. In fact he was just a Mexican crackpot.


Opinions are like butt cracks, everyone has one and most of them stink.......


Now in a more tactful manner, it is NOT the same as a christian priest claiming to not beleive in jesus. this is a martial art, and in its purest form was meant as training of the mind and body for combat, NOT a religious ceremony. To preach a close minded dogmatic response for either side is simply assanineness.....

it is nice to see others whoe understand how to fit there own beleifs into things are nice. Wether we beleive or not, other religions must be respected. it is there right to choose...

[Frame]

wait wait.......... we're all in agreement that we can do kendo without religion having anything to do with it... so.... what's the prob here? lets just go hit people with sticks and have some beer after shall we?

[Hyaku]

Just a few thoughs and recent connections with religion in Japan....

I take part in Buddhist ceremonies every single day. When I look at the people around me its quite obvious that most are intent on other thoughts and are just going through the motions. Nowadays in Japan Buddhism is mostly concerned with dying. People die, they make money. On that note I have been to a lot a funerals and seen a shocking lack or veneration for the departed.

I do have some friends who are quite devout priests. Then again its not uncommon for them to eat meat. I went to a Yakitori (barbecue shop) a few months ago and it was packed with a Buddhist priests get together. Then the next week at an hour long sermon we were all disciplined on the horrors of killing even a mosquito. Not exactly practicing what you preach comes to mind.

I had a few concerns about Shinto this week. In two weeks I do a once every ten year demonstration for Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai. For us this will include a trip to pay respects at Yasukuni Shrine. As its so controversial I was not sure if I should go or not. So I talked to a few learned people about it. I was told that I should go because Japan LOST the war. Good or bad they put their hands together and try and learn from it.

In all Japanese are extremley pragmatic about religion. They take part in shinto ceremonies for the young, have christian wedding and die buddhists. But it seems to me in religion like a lot more things in Japan they just like many thing here go through sheeplike motions.

[Berugijin]

So, are you going to shave your head like old samurai did ? Do you believe in Buddism and Shintoism ? I don't think you know diddley squat about old tradition. Can you dare to tell him what to believe or not ? Attitude like you cause fight and war. At least John is trying to harmonize his belief and what he is learning..

Yes you are correct. Berugijin is single-handedly responsible for

Over nine crusades (rape, pillage, murder)
Molesting little church boys
Spreading hatred towards minorities
...
Wait... That wasn't me that was christianity!

[Berugijin]

Opinions are like butt cracks, everyone has one and most of them stink.......


Now in a more tactful manner, it is NOT the same as a christian priest claiming to not beleive in jesus. this is a martial art, and in its purest form was meant as training of the mind and body for combat, NOT a religious ceremony. To preach a close minded dogmatic response for either side is simply assanineness.....

Thank you for proving my point. If he is thinking about god, jesus and $mythological_figure during meditation (mokuso for example) then I think that's wrong. Things like mokuso are important for the "mind" aspect of "mind and body" in martial arts, no?

[piggy]

settle down berugijin. the crusades were a long time ago and they were initiated by the pope to quiet the war-hungry land of europe. i think that if he does not feel that it is right to participate in the cerimonies and instead, incorperate his own beliefs, that is perfectly fine.
it was not the christians that did those bad things, it was certian individuals.i am not christian myself but i am tired of hearing people put down other religions.
if he does not feel that he should do the cerimonies, is that so much your problem? let him do what he wants and you do what you want.

[JohnHershman]

wow... didnt mean to stir the pot like that.

I need to clarify some things.... first of all... I am not a relativist... I do believe in absolute truth and that it is found only in the Bible ( NOW I am gonna get flamed).

Berugijin.... i didnt mean to offend you, but I do think it is possible to practice an art and not participate in the spiritual aspects of it.... Okinawan Kenpo as is has very little spiritual influence in it so it's possible to practice it with a Christian mindset and not change anything.

The purpose of the post was to show there can be a cooperation between martial arts and the Christian faith and that by going through things like cermonies and rituals when around those who can take your not participating as rude. The japanese have a great culture and I dont think we should americanize it in order to have them come into the Faith( I speak to Christians with this).

sorry for any confusion

[rainmaker]

Great, so decide to ditch your own culture and reinvent yourself to be a Japanese... Buddy, wake up and learn some your European hisotry first. Jesus never asked people to kill each others, Jesus never teach to molest little church boys, nor spread hatred towards minorities. It is stupid human who are are using religion as a tool to hurt other people. People like you!



Yes you are correct. Berugijin is single-handedly responsible for

Over nine crusades (rape, pillage, murder)
Molesting little church boys
Spreading hatred towards minorities
...
Wait... That wasn't me that was christianity!

[StarD0G101]

Terribly sorry to say this. But the moment you try to speak of religion (from a Christian point of view anyway) and associate it with a martial art, you immediately place yourself in juxtaposition to your religion.

Martial or for the purpose of war.. you must never forget that these arts are designed with a single point in mind, to ensure your continued survival at the expense of another. How you rationalise your partaking in the ceremony/keiko is entirely up to you, however; there is much to be learned about oneself and from one another in the training, which is far more important than under what or whose banner you do it in. These arts are a vehicle through which one can strive to improve oneself and ones fellowship with mankind.

The discipline and physical investment associated with the learning of these arts is an attractive value and is what many, if not all kendo-ka, naginata-no-hito etc.. strive to master.

Raising the Crusades and any other conflict within a religious context is pointless and can only serve to inflame, no religion is stain free when it comes to pain and suffering that it has directly or indirectly inflicted apon centuries of human existance. Better to leave sleeping dogs lie and focus on improving your own budo before worrying about how another does the same.

:old_man:

Now enough with the lecturing... go do some Haya-suburi! :evolved:

[Hisham]

Couldn't agree more StarD0G101. IMHO responsability will always come back to the people, religions, ideologies ....etc are only tools that can be used for good or for bad, as we all know anything can be twisted either way if you add the human factor into the equation.
John about meditation, focusing on your breathing and trying to be more alert of your body parts and your surroundings doesn't make you a budhist. It's a practical tool that'll help you with your training. It doesn't have to be about religion but of course you're free to see it that way. Anyway the fact that you tried to find a middle ground is in itself commendable.:)

[piggy]

i dont think that he's planning to use what he learned in martial arts and go out and kill people so there shouldnt be a conflict.

[JohnHershman]

the reasons i study are not to learn to hurt others. it's to learn to defend myself and others. I am profeciant enough in kenpo that I could resolve a conflict inflicting minor injuries while rendering an oponent completely unable to retaliate. I study swords because they are freakin awesome. Martial arts(empty hand) are not about taking life, but preserving it.

[Fonsz]

wow... didnt mean to stir the pot like that.

I need to clarify some things.... first of all... I am not a relativist... I do believe in absolute truth and that it is found only in the Bible ( NOW I am gonna get flamed).

Mr. Hershman sir,
The absolute truth does not exsist. It all depends on where you are born and raised. If you are born in Asia then Buddha is the absolute truth, if you are born in the Middle East then Allah is the one. But to all of them it is the absolute truth. The Bible is just a book with a lot of stories about how to behave in life. In Fairy Tales the same applies. Then again it is a very Archaic Book. With very strange rules. You're not allowed to touch pig skin, so no more American Football. There are more of these Archaic Rules so don't try to tell us that the Truth can be found in the bible. Your truth can be found in the bible, not mine, or others who are either not religious or have a different religion. So please refrain from your Christian Propaganda, this is a Kendo Forum. If you like to mix up your religion with Martial Arts I suggest you join one of those christian zealot martial arts mc dojo clubs.
Kendo is Japanese and thus not Christian.

The purpose of the post was to show there can be a cooperation between martial arts and the Christian faith and that by going through things like cermonies and rituals when around those who can take your not participating as rude. The japanese have a great culture and I dont think we should americanize it in order to have them come into the Faith( I speak to Christians with this).

There can never be a cooperation between Martial Arts and your Christian Faith when at Mokuso you are thinking of Jesus because it is supposed to clear your mind and your religion is clouding up your mind.

sorry for any confusion

There is no confusion with us there is just confusion in your mind and maybe in your soul when you are so restless that you have to think about religion every waking hour.
There, that's of my chest and please read the diclaimer below my post graciously provided by an attorney who knows his way around the world.

[JohnHershman]

ROFL, so you are one who ascribes to the cultural relativism ethics code? I learned about that ethics system and know many of it's fallacies.... I am not going to get into it with you, but You are very mistaken on several things in the Bible. you have a vague concept of what is really in it and it shows with the pigskin comment. I could explain it to you but you would just come back with something else and this would be a long drawn out debate and come to no effect.

[piggy]

indeed so why dont we just quit while we're ahead.

[Fonsz]

ROFL, so you are one who ascribes to the cultural relativism ethics code? I learned about that ethics system and know many of it's fallacies.... I am not going to get into it with you, but You are very mistaken on several things in the Bible. you have a vague concept of what is really in it and it shows with the pigskin comment. I could explain it to you but you would just come back with something else and this would be a long drawn out debate and come to no effect.
Of course I'm mistaken by the bible because it is not a holy book for me I do not follow it slavishly. I do know that when you say that it is the Absolute Truth you are selling the majority of the world population short. That is my point. You already realized that this will come to no effect then why bother us with your "moral" dilemmas? I took the liberty of viewing the Kenpo web site. I can't judge it's legitimacy but if it is then you should be proud to be part of such a distinguished long line which you are trying to break with your Absolute Truth. That is my issue, so you can always take my advice and join the Christian Zealot Mc Dojo in the Shopping Mall near you. You'll be a part of the long line of 2000 years when they started to feed Christians to the Lions.

[Berugijin]

ROFL, so you are one who ascribes to the cultural relativism ethics code? I learned about that ethics system and know many of it's fallacies.... I am not going to get into it with you, but You are very mistaken on several things in the Bible. you have a vague concept of what is really in it and it shows with the pigskin comment. I could explain it to you but you would just come back with something else and this would be a long drawn out debate and come to no effect.

Way to weasle out of a debate. Bet you use the exact same lines when scientists discuss evolution theory.

[KhawMengLee]

ROFL, so you are one who ascribes to the cultural relativism ethics code? I learned about that ethics system and know many of it's fallacies.... I am not going to get into it with you, but You are very mistaken on several things in the Bible. you have a vague concept of what is really in it and it shows with the pigskin comment. I could explain it to you but you would just come back with something else and this would be a long drawn out debate and come to no effect.

The Bible's teachings have a lot of wisdom in it. So does the Sutras and the Qoran. But life, in all its wonder is not set. Things are never just plain black and white...

Darwin's theory on evolution is exactly that. A theory, not a definative outcome. Theories take into account that an outcome can be predicted by taking into account past results. Its like a guideline on what the most probably outcome is.

The same can be taken for all religious texts. The wisdom in its stories help us to live life. It helps to guide us...but it cannot tell us how we must live our lives because it doesn't have a definate answer.

Remember...the bible is written by man. Not by God. Therefor, it is susceptable to the human condition. Never think that one source is the only opinion that matters.

As the saying goes, when the doctor's report comes in, always get a second opinion.

[nikolaj]

lets just go hit people with sticks and have some beer after shall we?

I'm still fairly sure that this has been the best answer in this thread so far.

also, even though I'm not perticulary christian (or religious for that matter) I don't really think anyone can tell anyone else he misinterpreted the bible. To me, the bible is definitly one of the books with the greatest influence on mankind while having the most possible interpretations. (just as the koran for instance does, but as long as I don't get the opportunity to chat with its author, I for one won't tell anyone their vision of it is plain wrong.)

that said, let's all have a beer before someone throws in another religion.

[Anjin-san]

I think that all christians should be banned from doing kendo. Especially Jehova's witnesses. And jews. And muslims. And those crackpot tree-hugging atheist hippie scumbags too.

Who's up for starting the worlds first ever devil-worship kendo club? We can bow to a shomen with saddam on it and do satanic chants during mokuso.

[ISSAC RU]

I think that all christians should be banned from doing kendo. Especially Jehova's witnesses. And jews. And muslims. And those crackpot tree-hugging atheist hippie scumbags too.



This is the best phrase ever, espeically to the last one....death to all
god-damn-hippie-samurai-wanna-be-mofos.

[bluhawq]

I think that all christians should be banned from doing kendo. Especially Jehova's witnesses. And jews. And muslims. And those crackpot tree-hugging atheist hippie scumbags too.

Who's up for starting the worlds first ever devil-worship kendo club? We can bow to a shomen with saddam on it and do satanic chants during mokuso.

Are you being sarcastic or just plain silly?I fail to detect any sarcasm there and that's insulting~

[crabbi]

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."
-F. Scott Fitzgerald

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

“The line between good and evil runs through every single heart.”
- Alexander Solzhenitzyn

[piggy]

im not old enough to have beer. maybe we could go get juice boxes at chuck E. cheeses?

[ben]

I think the OP was being quite reasonable in his opening post. Unfortunately the words "Jesus" and "Christian" are always likely to start a flame war, and many on this forum are not mature enough to discuss religion without making chauvinistic or ad hominen attacks on those who openly admit their faith. We have had Christian MA loonies lurk (and be banned) on this forum before. But this guy, based on what I have read so far, is not one of them. Give him a break.

b

[rainmaker]

I don't think such statement is funny. In fact, it sounds like you are coward, cruel, scared and untrustworthy.. If someone make such statement about Chinese, it wouldn't sounds so smart.



This is the best phrase ever, espeically to the last one....death to all
god-damn-hippie-samurai-wanna-be-mofos.

[ISSAC RU]

I don't think such statement is funny. In fact, it sounds like you are coward, cruel, scared and untrustworthy.. If someone make such statement about Chinese, it wouldn't sounds so smart.

You are right . I am a coward , cruel , scared and untrustworth person , hippie.

[Andou]

I think the OP was being quite reasonable in his opening post. Unfortunately the words "Jesus" and "Christian" are always likely to start a flame war, and many on this forum are not mature enough to discuss religion without making chauvinistic or ad hominen attacks on those who openly admit their faith. We have had Christian MA loonies lurk (and be banned) on this forum before. But this guy, based on what I have read so far, is not one of them. Give him a break.

b

You know, normally I would agree with what you're saying. However, it is just the way the opening post was worded that got me a little riled up. If he's Christian and believes Kendo to be something he can do that is within the guidelines of his religion, fine. If he wants to tell us that he's Christian and holds his beliefs as he does it, that's fine too. However it's just the "throwing out the door" of the meant-to-be and replacing it with religious action is what is angering. Mokuso shouldn't be used for prayer and completely disregarding the meaning of Kendo by "throwing out" some of its actions seems pretty insulting. That's just me, though.

[The great I AM]

You are right . I am a coward , cruel , scared and untrustworth person , hippie.

What you fail to realise is that Anjin-san was being sarcastic, you on the other hand are being as forthright as we have all come to expect from you on this forum. Isn't it sad how the only things you ever post are ill thought out opinions and plainly insulting nonsense, and also only ever in response to anything in the flames section. You must be a very bored and lonely little boy if you get entertainment from this. You have my sympathy.

[The great I AM]

Are you being sarcastic or just plain silly?I fail to detect any sarcasm there and that's insulting~

It was sarcastic, just maybe a little overstated. I know this fool and hes very sarcastic, but also inteligent enough not to make such a stupid remark in seriousness. Its just unfortunate that Issac Ru is a big enough imbecile to take the bait.

[Andou]

What you fail to realise is that Anjin-san was being sarcastic, you on the other hand are being as forthright as we have all come to expect from you on this forum. Isn't it sad how the only things you ever post are ill thought out opinions and plainly insulting nonsense, and also only ever in response to anything in the flames section. You must be a very bored and lonely little boy if you get entertainment from this. You have my sympathy.

I wish KW would let me just post "LOL." as a reply to this...

[The great I AM]

I wish KW would let me just post "LOL." as a reply to this...

Well, you have my permission....

[KhawMengLee]

Sigh...I've been trying to give Issac the benefit of the doubt but if he keeps acting like this its going to be the old office christmas card for the boss for him...

You know, the one that says:

"Jesus loves you...but everyone else thinks you're a c*nt!"

[Fonsz]

I think the OP was being quite reasonable in his opening post. Unfortunately the words "Jesus" and "Christian" are always likely to start a flame war, and many on this forum are not mature enough to discuss religion without making chauvinistic or ad hominen attacks on those who openly admit their faith. We have had Christian MA loonies lurk (and be banned) on this forum before. But this guy, based on what I have read so far, is not one of them. Give him a break.

b
I'm with you on the reasonable qualification, he could even laugh as a reply. Usually humor is not the strongest characteristic(sp?) of these staunch Christians. But I do resent the fact that Mokuso is being abused to fit his religion. Mokuso in my opinion has no religious connotation. To pray while performing Mokuso is the fist step on gliding scale. I am in no way chauvinistic. So I really hope that you didn't have me in your mind when you posted. I would also be very grateful if you could tell me what "Ad Hominen" means.
I also noticed that Andou is with me so I'm glad that I'm not the only one.

[crabbi]

Sigh...I've been trying to give Issac the benefit of the doubt but if he keeps acting like this its going to be the old office christmas card for the boss for him...

You know, the one that says:

"Jesus loves you...but everyone else thinks you're a c*nt!"
Now there's a thought...

It was sarcastic, just maybe a little overstated. I know this fool and hes very sarcastic, but also inteligent enough not to make such a stupid remark in seriousness. Its just unfortunate that Issac Ru is a big enough imbecile to take the bait.

Poor Isaac... he's not bad 100% of the time... in fact he has been helpful on one or two occasions... however, like the village idiot, he rarely engages his brain before his mouth (or in this case his keyboard)...

ah well....!

[The great I AM]

Poor Isaac... he's not bad 100% of the time... in fact he has been helpful on one or two occasions... however, like the village idiot, he rarely engages his brain before his mouth (or in this case his keyboard)...

I'm trying to build a village idiot, do you think Issac Ru will lend me his brain?

[mingshi]

...Somehow this reminds me of my (Catholic) school days... Every morning I used that period of morning prayer time to copy maths homework. Much more efficient than doing it at home!! Me and my classmates also enjoyed the air-conditioned prayer room where we spent our after-lunch time in. I'd thank god for that!

[Paikea]

...Somehow this reminds me of my (Catholic) school days... Somehow, I knew you had to be a product of The System. I'm guessing Jesuits?

[crabbi]

I'm trying to build a village idiot, do you think Issac Ru will lend me his brain?Hi TgIA... I am sure that would be okay as he rarely (if ever) uses it....

There would probably be a queue of KW-Forumites to assist you in the removal !!!

cheers

[piggy]

at least we dont have any oliver cromwell fans on this forum that i know of...

[mononokifool]

so i was talking to this guy in a antique weopon store(ya know the ones with all the ww2 stuff in them) and i saw some old katanas that had been taken of of dead japanese soldiars during the war and i started talking to him about me doing kendo. so he started telling me that you have to be carful with this(he is a christian and i am not) because once you get to a ccertain level in your training you can recieve godlike reflexes and not be able to feel pain. now he said this was because you take sides with the devil and in return he makes you crazy good at what you do. this got me thinking....thinking that all christians are crazy jk :). but anywase i try and not to think about anything but kendo when i do it, nothing about religion schoool or my family it is all about kendo so i can do my best to learn everything i can about kedno.

[Andou]

so i was talking to this guy in a antique weopon store(ya know the ones with all the ww2 stuff in them) and i saw some old katanas that had been taken of of dead japanese soldiars during the war and i started talking to him about me doing kendo. so he started telling me that you have to be carful with this(he is a christian and i am not) because once you get to a ccertain level in your training you can recieve godlike reflexes and not be able to feel pain. now he said this was because you take sides with the devil and in return he makes you crazy good at what you do. this got me thinking....thinking that all christians are crazy jk :). but anywase i try and not to think about anything but kendo when i do it, nothing about religion schoool or my family it is all about kendo so i can do my best to learn everything i can about kedno.

Wtf. I got those before I even started kendo...

[Mugu]

Wtf. I got those before I even started kendo...

That's true and I'm so sicken by those thoughts, they would tell me that I'm a follower of satan because I listen to Black/Death Metal! WTF really!

Though, I think JohnHersman is really trying not to offend anyone, but I'm sorry, I have to say the same for the rest of us saying. Don't get this sport complicated by throwing your own religious faith in here and assume sympathy from us... and you know we won't because some of the stuff are just plain insulting.

Everything in life is a open philosophy, including Kendo depending on how hard you want to look into it. But it should never be to the point hat you believe in it so much that you want to make others to believe in the same thing. Maybe you should annalyze God and religions harder, they are two different entities. God is what you believe in and everyone has one in themselves to guide them as a person, and religion is a philosophy/stories that taught by one individual and people should think of its meaning instead of following it like a book and rules.

That's what I think and this kind of post should be remove immediately next time

[Mugu]

because once you get to a ccertain level in your training you can recieve godlike reflexes and not be able to feel pain.

Really?!!! I wish that can happens then we all who practice kendo will be immortal! kakakakakaka :)

[piggy]

he just said not feel pain. you could get your guts blown out, not feel it and still die. but you could smack the person who shot you with your godlike reflexes before they even knew it.

[Mugu]

he just said not feel pain. you could get your guts blown out, not feel it and still die. but you could smack the person who shot you with your godlike reflexes before they even knew it.

Oh okay, my bad! :D But that's still kewl, hahah :D

[Andou]

he just said not feel pain. you could get your guts blown out, not feel it and still die. but you could smack the person who shot you with your godlike reflexes before they even knew it.

Ha. What foolishness! Everyone knows once you become sandan you officially become a Highlander and become immortal.

[JohnHershman]

Way to weasle out of a debate. Bet you use the exact same lines when scientists discuss evolution theory.

nah.. evolution is harder to refute becasue it takes a lot of truth and mixes it with lies...

Cultural relativism can be proven wrong through the logical fallacy aproach. I ask this to those who say there are no absolute truth..... are you absolutely sure? if so then you have just refuted yourself.

anyway... gotta get back to reading the rest of the views here.

[JohnHershman]

let me clear up some misunderstandings...


first of all... all Metal is not satanic.... I listen to hardcore as my primary music style, but it is the Christian alternative to it. It really gets the blood flowing for a high intensity work out.

second.... I was NOT refering to mokosu when I was refering to mediation! I do believe it is ok to clear ones mind for learning purpose. the very defintion is to clear your mind and prepare to accept learning. I was however refering to meditation ment to build "ki" this i do not do. I replace that with biblical mediation.

3rd... I am not trying to evangelize any of you. if you want to know more about God, Jesus and the bible please PM me.

thats about it for now...

[JSchmidt]

nah.. evolution is harder to refute becasue it takes a lot of truth and mixes it with lies...


Which lies?

Jakob

[Andou]

Which lies?

Jakob

I agree. It's fairly ignorant to believe that most things are changing around us while we were merely made with every ability and the adaptations needed for the changing environment.

[piggy]

but there can be only one!!Ha. What foolishness! Everyone knows once you become sandan you officially become a Highlander and become immortal.

[KhawMengLee]

...Somehow this reminds me of my (Catholic) school days... !

Anyone seen the movie Kentucky Fried Movie?

Its got a great film within called Catholic High School Girls in Trouble...

[KhawMengLee]

nah.. evolution is harder to refute becasue it takes a lot of truth and mixes it with lies...

And the Bible has no lies either?

[mingshi]

Somehow, I knew you had to be a product of The System. I'm guessing Jesuits?
I am thinking about Opus Dei and the like - since I am into "the discipline" and all that :D

[Anjin-san]

<cries into drink>

....

Seriously though

nah.. evolution is harder to refute becasue it takes a lot of truth and mixes it with lies...

Being a student at UCL, which was started by an atheist, and had some important people like Charles Darwin study here, I'd be interested to know what exactly about the theory of evolution isn't true?

What turns me off about debating with overly religious people is vagueness, or huge leaps of logic. For example, 'why did God let the tsunami happen... he works in mysterious ways...'.

I'm not so upset when they pull out the 'there's God, because there's God' BS because I know that means they've hit the limitations of their beleif structure.

I was however refering to meditation ment to build "ki" this i do not do.

You're building your ki whether you like it or not. Ki is just a catch all word that means your strength, fighting spirit, willingness to fight. In a way, you build your ki when you listen to heavy metal too.

In Japanese the kanji for ki is tagged on to lots of things, for example heaven+ki = weather. There's not necessarily anything particularly religious about it.

3rd... I am not trying to evangelize any of you. if you want to know more about God, Jesus and the bible please PM me.

Then next time, ask a pastor/reverend/mullah/rabbi. You're creating religious issues in a secular martial art.

I ask this to those who say there are no absolute truth..... are you absolutely sure? if so then you have just refuted yourself.

OK, fine, but thats just a semantic error. What if I were to say "There is no absolute truth except for the meaning conveyed by the sentance between these two quotation marks."?

first of all... all Metal is not satanic....

Yes it is.

[sjp]

"3rd... I am not trying to evangelize any of you. if you want to know more about God, Jesus and the bible please PM me."


Yeah right

I wonder who is the biggest problem in the world today
Islamic Fundamentalists or American right wing christians ?

I could not care less what anyones religion is.. just dont push it on me.
Personally i would prefer all of you to be on a desert island where you can slaughter each until kingdom come and let your God sort you out.

This is a kendo forum, why cant we keep it to kendo and Beer

[Fonsz]

"3rd... I am not trying to evangelize any of you. if you want to know more about God, Jesus and the bible please PM me."


Yeah right

I wonder who is the biggest problem in the world today
Islamic Fundamentalists or American right wing christians ?

I could not care less what anyones religion is.. just dont push it on me.
Personally i would prefer all of you to be on a desert island where you can slaughter each until kingdom come and let your God sort you out.

This is a kendo forum, why cant we keep it to kendo and Beer
Hear hear! Except for the Beer can that be a soda or something?

[Mugu]

first of all... all Metal is not satanic....

<cries into drink>
Yes it is.

Eh? I dunno about that... I agree with John on this one... One example right out of my head... Opeth... they don't dress scary.... they are just bunch of guys with long hair and sing in deep vocals :p and they have a album called Damnation even your mom will listen, lol

[Paikea]

I am thinking about Opus Dei and the like - since I am into "the discipline" and all that :DI grew up with the Augustinians, they seem to develop a more circumspect view of things, and don't get into the thumbscrews like the Jesuits did. Among their credits we find the phrase "give me chastity - but not just yet" and a faddish vandal by the name of Martin Luther, who I understand went on to some fame later in life, but for the life of me I cannot recall why.

[KhawMengLee]

Hear hear! Except for the Beer can that be a soda or something?

GASP!!!! Blasphemer!!!! Burn the Heretic!!!!!!

*proceeds to call the Liquored Inquisition*

[KhawMengLee]

I could never understand why religions could not accept worship of other religions. Every major religion preaches the same thing.

The bible states that we should not worship other god's because Jehovah is a jealous God and Vengeful...if a god cannot accept another god then its not very godlike izzit? Sounds very human...which if a God acts like then I'm very scared...

I'm Buddhist, I go to Churches once in a while. Its a very beautiful place...a church. Like all holy places, they have a strange harmony to them. Its sad that people cannot see that there is truly only one God...and nobody knows his/her name because we're too busy trying to claim him/her as ours.

[Fonsz]

I'm Buddhist, I go to Churches once in a while. Its a very beautiful place...a church. Like all holy places, they have a strange harmony to them. Its sad that people cannot see that there is truly only one God...and nobody knows his/her name because we're too busy trying to claim him/her as ours.
Now who's the Blasphemer and the Heretic then? According to the rules engraved in Stone by the Christian Looney Martial Artists Association, you are bound to burn in Hell. Surely by now you know that the Lord is on their side and others repent or be Damned for Eternity........
-Gasp, gasp, gasp-.......

Can I have my can of Soda now? Because it is bloody hot over here.

[Paikea]

*proceeds to call the Liquored Inquisition*I can work him in this weekend.

[piggy]

by argueing, we're only making this issue alot worse. i thought this was kendo world. not argue about religion versus ratiocination and make this alot worse than when it began with a simple concern world.com seriously. this thread should be banned. lets just have a juice box and get back to kendo. please.

(in case this thread does go on, count on me to say more dumb crap)

[Andou]

but there can be only one!!

Yes...of course...then some of us will become the victim of...THE QUICKENING.

[KhawMengLee]

Now who's the Blasphemer and the Heretic then? According to the rules engraved in Stone by the Christian Looney Martial Artists Association, you are bound to burn in Hell. Surely by now you know that the Lord is on their side and others repent or be Damned for Eternity........
-Gasp, gasp, gasp-.......

Can I have my can of Soda now? Because it is bloody hot over here.

Muahaahhaahaaaaa! Burn! Baby! Burn! I got a sharp pointy stick to poke them all with!

And a bottle of Chivas for the undrinker/believer.

I can work him in this weekend.

Excellent...it is all as I have forseen...*tweaks evil moustache*

[mononokifool]

let me clear up some misunderstandings...


first of all... all Metal is not satanic.... I listen to hardcore as my primary music style, but it is the Christian alternative to it. It really gets the blood flowing for a high intensity work out.

well i dont think that any one type of music is satanic it is all in how you preseve it. i listen to black metal and this style has been known to burn and destroy churches and hehe in this one band one of the members decided to kill his fellow band mate becausehe was not evil eough when he wore a white sweter. so maybe the band is maybe satanic but that doesnt mean the music is...it is the people who are the satanic ones. but anywase while im in here i think i am going to get my first tattoo soon and i was wondering if it would be dissrespectfull to get one of a samurai. oh yeah the guy who told me you inherite powers threw the devil said that he had seen it happen before and it ruins peoples life because they begine not to feel emotions (and this is because of martial arts) or something weird like that.but he has been threw a war so it might have meesedhim up or something.and do they really have kendo christin clubs ahahahahah i wonder what the japanese tell them when they go over there to tournaments hahahaha. oh i recently found out that japan is only 2% christian.

[Andou]

well i dont think that any one type of music is satanic it is all in how you preseve it. i listen to black metal and this style has been known to burn and destroy churches and hehe in this one band one of the members decided to kill his fellow band mate becausehe was not evil eough when he wore a white sweter. so maybe the band is maybe satanic but that doesnt mean the music is...it is the people who are the satanic ones. but anywase while im in here i think i am going to get my first tattoo soon and i was wondering if it would be dissrespectfull to get one of a samurai. oh yeah the guy who told me you inherite powers threw the devil said that he had seen it happen before and it ruins peoples life because they begine not to feel emotions (and this is because of martial arts) or something weird like that.but he has been threw a war so it might have meesedhim up or something.and do they really have kendo christin clubs ahahahahah i wonder what the japanese tell them when they go over there to tournaments hahahaha. oh i recently found out that japan is only 2% christian.

I think he's just mixing up stoicism with some other things. It's possible to supress emotion to the point where it may seem to others you don't feel something, but I don't know if you can be physically capable of everyday tasks and feel no emotion as it happens. That's just my thoughts, though.

[piggy]

i dont think that its possible at all. humans live off of emotions.



I think he's just mixing up stoicism with some other things. It's possible to supress emotion to the point where it may seem to others you don't feel something, but I don't know if you can be physically capable of everyday tasks and feel no emotion as it happens. That's just my thoughts, though.

[mononokifool]

well i thin kwe can tell by the story that he was kinda weird

[Fonsz]

by argueing, we're only making this issue alot worse. i thought this was kendo world. not argue about religion versus ratiocination and make this alot worse than when it began with a simple concern world.com seriously. this thread should be banned. lets just have a juice box and get back to kendo. please.

(in case this thread does go on, count on me to say more dumb crap)
This is a Kendo World Forum. Kendo is a secular thing. What keeps me wondering is that these Christian Looney Martial Artists are posting here. If you roam and view the threads you can clearly see that the majority is not really religious or they keep it to themselves. There's people from all over the World in this community where you can see by the locations or the flags that it would be a safe guess that they are not Christians. So why do they bother to post their religious dogma's and hang ups here? Masochism, wannabe martyrs? Who knows. Makes me yearn for the days of Gatsu Sensei of the Aquatic Windu Ryu.........
By the way you Heretics of the Liquor Inquisition, I'm ready for you if you are. Stupid thing to give an advance notice, I'll be waiting for you..................

[KhawMengLee]

By the way you Heretics of the Liquor Inquisition, I'm ready for you if you are. Stupid thing to give an advance notice, I'll be waiting for you..................

I like to face my victims in battle...hehehe...methinks you need to suffer the shochu torture(similar to the Spanish Inq.'s water torture but we use shochu instead...muahaahahaa). :wink:

[shred_lord]

I'd just like to point out that we have a Christian Priest at my dojo who is also a Shodan. He does not seem to have a problem.

I think some reglious people must be quite insecure in there faith. The seem to take offence at traditions as if they were conceived as attacks against their religion. They were not!

BTW... I'm not a Christian, but I use to be.

[JSchmidt]

I'd just like to point out that we have a Christian Priest at my dojo who is also a Shodan. He does not seem to have a problem.


I got no problem with his faith and kendo. I do however, have a problem with his statement that the Theory of Evolution uses lies to validate itself.

Jakob

[piggy]

this whole religion and kendo issue can be solved in 2 simple words. shut up. please. if you dont like kendo, dont do it. if you dont like religion, dont practice it. everyone in kendo has thier beleifs whether it be religious or logical, but not all of us walk into the dojo and open our mouths about what we think.

told you i'd be back with more stupid crap!

[Anjin-san]

Man, what a surprise. No one would have guessed you'd say that!

[Yiu Fai]

I remember reading once that in Japan there used to be Christian Samurai?


[/ my lame contribution to thread]

[Akai Bushi]

Yes, there were many Christian samurai in the late 16th century. Mainly they were in Western Japan. Araki Murashige was one of them. Founder of Araki-ryu.

The problem with religion and evolution is neither of them can be proven. To practice science one has to do experiments and make decisions based on observation. No one has had first hand experience of seeing evolution occur. Therefor Evolution isn't even a theory it's a hypothosis. Does this mean it's not true? no. It just means it might not be true. Scientifically Christianity along with all other religions can't be proven. Does that mean they're not true? no. Religion along with Evolution is based on speculation and faith.

Earlier someone asked why God let the Tsunami happen. In the Christian religion Earth is a punishment not a place to be happy. We are here to work our hands to the bone and then die. The garden of eden was paradise not where we live now. Now I'm not saying you should believe it, but that is why God let the Tsunami happen. Doesn't sit well does it?

[Yaiba]

The problem with religion and evolution is neither of them can be proven. To practice science one has to do experiments and make decisions based on observation. No one has had first hand experience of seeing evolution occur. Therefor Evolution isn't even a theory it's a hypothosis. Does this mean it's not true? no. It just means it might not be true. Scientifically Christianity along with all other religions can't be proven. Does that mean they're not true? no. Religion along with Evolution is based on speculation and faith.
I agree that Evolution isn't an established fact but there is a lot of evidence to support the theory. In response to the above statement (indicated in bold), evolution does occur and has been witnessed by scientists that study various microorganisms (bacteria, fungi, viruses, etc). For example, we see an ever-increasing number of bacteria that are becoming resistant to antibiotics (a very big concern to the World Health Organisation) and even the influenza virus mutates each year, which explains why we are susceptible to catching it all too often.

The advancement of DNA technology in recent decades has also been able to establish close relationships between humans and other organisms, which seems to indicate that there may have been divergences from a common ancestor.

Haha, sorry if this post was boring... ^^;;

[Fonsz]

I agree that Evolution isn't an established fact but there is a lot of evidence to support the theory. In response to the above statement (indicated in bold), evolution does occur and has been witnessed by scientists that study various microorganisms (bacteria, fungi, viruses, etc). For example, we see an ever-increasing number of bacteria that are becoming resistant to antibiotics (a very big concern to the World Health Organisation) and even the influenza virus mutates each year, which explains why we are susceptible to catching it all too often.

The advancement of DNA technology in recent decades has also been able to establish close relationships between humans and other organisms, which seems to indicate that there may have been divergences from a common ancestor.

Haha, sorry if this post was boring... ^^;;
This wasn't boring but well phrased and will have to take the wind out of Looney Christian Martial Artists. But I'm afraid that their vision is clouded and that they will say that because they know the absolute truth.

[mingshi]

Now I'm not saying you should believe it, but that is why God let the Tsunami happen.
Ah Come on... Admit it! Admit that "the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence." Therefore God "brings a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."

If it was brimstone and fire they had, it's probably because of too much sodomy.

I love Genesis (especially Noah's at Gen 6; Sodom and Gomorrah at Gen9). See how twisted and pornographic the holy text can get.

For starters check this (http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/) out :D

[kendokan]

This is officially the stupidest thread I've ever seen. Thank you for the spam.

[GlideWalker]

Let's do Politics afterward and THEN see if any of us are still friends?

But since you ask(!), here is my contribution to the religion bit.

1) I am a practicing Christian
2) Like someone else earlier in this thread, I too focus on Christ during Mokuso - he enjoys it when I train hard so I like to check in with him before and after.
3) I am certain that Kendo and my Prayer/Spiritual life are mutually contributive. Kendo has some powerful philosophical and religious elements, particularly in its attempts to grapple with mortality. Personally I think my understanding of this is helped by having a faith. However, people with no spiritual or religious interest are clearly enjoying their Kendo all around me. So a religious/spiritual approach is obviously not a necessity. Its just an added extra if you happen to be that way inclined.
4) The time of direct interventions by God, such as Noah's flood is long past, even if any of the old testament it is literally true in a rational or physical sense. The important bit (for christians) is that the new covenant offered by Christ passes responsibility for justice on earth to individual human beings. This is my personal interpretation - by all means argue with me if you wish, but on this analysis God played no part in the NATURAL Tsunami disaster, save to inspire many of those personally involved to carry out selfless acts of heroism for the sake of others
5) Similarly, arguments about evolution and creationism completely miss the point. Metaphysically, they can both be true at the same time and it doesn't matter.
6) No.... it really doesn't, because it has no bearing whatsoever on whether you did your best to love god and do the right thing by your neighbour today.
7) I also believe that all religious people are ultimately acknowledging the same god. Or at the very least, positing an explanation of things based on the same idea of a benevolent causal intelligence at work in the general mix of the universe. For this reason, I have no issues whatsoever with taking part in ceremonials or rituals which are influenced by, or derived from other faiths or ideologies (I.E. Kendo Reigi). Some people have expressed worries about this in other threads.
8) I know that 7) will upset people with fundamentalist tendencies. Suffer.
9) As hinted at in 2) I try to bring God with me to the dojo, and everywhere else for that matter (with varying degrees of success!). However this is a personal thing. I agree with those who do not feel that this is a subject for everyday intercourse and rarely discuss such matters with anyone outside my religious group of friends. Unless asked directly. Or unless people put provocative posts on forums.

So you have only yourselves to blame for another long and doubtlessly boring post. Thank heaven for Friday Lunchtimes!

[louisvandalen]

Its sad that people cannot see that there is truly only one God...

and nobody knows his/her name because....

First one: you are so right
second one: it's Louis

P.S.
PM me if you wanna donate money, kendo gear or other valuables (standard shipping rates apply)! You'll be blessed 4ever.

[Akai Bushi]

I'm not trying to make anyone believe what I've posted before. It's just the bible clearly explains how Eden was lost and life on Earth will be hard for all of us. The problem everyone has is they want to believe God is this all caring and loving being. We'll in a way he his, but he is also a vengful god. Can't a parent punish they're children and still love them? In addition Christians that get too attached to this life don't realize that this is just a stage before paradise. So all this pain and sorrow is short. We have to deal with what we are dealt. God created the world and how it works what we do to it and how we affect each other is our own business. Tsunamis, earthquakes, wars these aren't God saying one day I'll have an earthquake. It is the world he created and the science it lives by. According to Genisis God wanted us to live in paradise, but we chose knowledge and with knowledge comes pain.

Again these are reasons for why things happen according to the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible then arguing against them is pointless, because only names and places can be backed up in the Bible with archeology, not the supernatural. Again it's the task of all of us that believe in a religion, faith. Can anyone really understand a supernatural being greater than ourselves. Do we even want to? There are so many paradoxs about God that don't fit into our world. Like God is beyond time. I see this as God sees everything happening at the same moment. Or the trinity they are three, but also of one.
How does that work? Even in physics there are these things in space that don't really work mathematically. Maybe someday they will be firgured out or maybe they are just paradoxs.

I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm completely open to all ideas. I even read alot about Buddhism. Doesn't mean I believe it, but I respect people that do. If you were to follow the Budda's teachings exactly there is not even a need to think of God. Mahayana Buddhism is different and has a need to pray to Gods or saints, but faiths change over time from the original. I respect all people's beliefs unless they hurt other people physically. I even took anthropology, so as a Christian I'm not sitting in my corner ignoring everything, but the Bible.

Whenever someone says they believe in something, there is always someone who will try to change their belief.

Why does anyone care if someone thinks of God during Mokuso or lives they're life by a standard different than yours?

I can't call anyone's belief stupid.
I as well can't say all religions are true like some people may argue. That would disrespect Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, and the list goes on. By saying all religions are true degrades them all(just a side note in response to a statement made by Al Gore a few years back).

Evolution: I'm not saying it's not possible, but have scientist seen any of those bacteria or fungi become a different species beyond adaptation?

[GlideWalker]

Evolution: I'm not saying it's not possible, but have scientist seen any of those bacteria or fungi become a different species beyond adaptation?

Can you not see that the evolution thing is a just a red herring? For both sides of the argument, that is.

Faith is a choice, otherwise it is meaningless. Material facts are forced upon us by the weight of evidence. Therefore, you very quickly land in heaps of trouble if you start brandishing passages of the old testiment as material truth with explanatory power over current physical events. (E.g. natural disasters being some kind of retribution on us allowing gay marraiges or whatever nonsense comes to mind.) I don't think this is the position you are taking, but the points you make lean in that direction.

Similarly, those on the other side of the fence are likely to end up in a very dark place if they try to use science to tackle philosophical problems.

A scientific aeteist can convincingly argue that that there is no meaningful answer to questions like 'why are we here' and that we should stick to 'how we got here'. But this form of correctness is very narrow and is of little help when dealing with many of the things that most of us would intuitively associate with the human experience - justice, courage, morality.

Fine, if you think this has nothing to do with Kendo. I'm not forcing you to read it. Go check out a thread on how to knit your own men himo or something!

OK now its my turn to be provokative!

The activity itself is indeed secular. But for me the philosophical and religious aspects of its origin add something that I wouldn't swap for the fastest men cut on the planet.

[Paikea]

If it was brimstone and fire they had, it's probably because of too much sodomy.

I love Genesis (especially Noah's at Gen 6; Sodom and Gomorrah at Gen9). See how twisted and pornographic the holy text can get.

For starters check this (http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/) out :DJesuits, definitely.

[Akai Bushi]

I was just stating why god doesn't go out and prevent natural disasters. As well I don't think God causes all these disasters. I believe he created how the world works which causes natural disasters. God is not a superman for the flesh he is more conserned with the spirit.

[Hank]

[snip]A scientific aeteist can convincingly argue that that there is no meaningful answer to questions like 'why are we here' and that we should stick to 'how we got here'. But this form of correctness is very narrow and is of little help when dealing with many of the things that most of us would intuitively associate with the human experience - justice, courage, morality.My whole life I have only heard the question "Why are we here?" expressed by other people (at least, existentially speaking). This question has never come up in my own mind. It really baffles me as to why a person would even ask that question. I guess I was born an atheist.

The activity itself is indeed secular. But for me the philosophical and religious aspects of its origin add something that I wouldn't swap for the fastest men cut on the planet.No way - the fastest men cut on the planet would be soo cool. And fly-swatting would have a whole new dimension.

Hank.